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Your guided tour of the world of growth, performance marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, marketing, and life.
Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and have some fun talking about data-driven growth and lessons learned!
Welcome to another edition of the always be testing podcast with your
host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance
marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth,
marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and
have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned.
Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast.
I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I'm stoked to have Matt Gatozzi on. What's up,
Matt? Hey. Hey. Good to be here. Great to have you on. It's been
awesome to be able to follow your progress and growth with
awesome creative in the fun filled world of ecom and d two c. And,
we've been it's been a pleasure to be able to collaborate with you as well, dive into all the
things that you've learned. I know there's a lot to share. Yeah. Absolutely. Excited to be here. Excited to
chat all things ads and creative. Heck yeah, man. Heck yeah. You know, you've
witnessed d two c ecom, ads, creative, the testing aspects
of that, you know, what performs well, what doesn't perform well. There's a lot of
noise in the market, there's a lot of tools, there's a lot of people selling things.
When you think about that crowded world, what are you trying to bring to the
creative and ad game in in what you do? Yeah. I think, you know,
right now, the biggest thing that I hear is there's a lot of lot of noise on account structures
and big caps, ABO, CBO, all that fun stuff.
And not to say that that's that's not important. You know, you need a good account structure. You
need really good kind of fundamentals of that. But that's only gonna get you
efficiently maybe an extra 10:20 percent lift. What's gonna really give
big lift in your account, your brand, is understanding who's
your customer and why are they buying. It's so easy to get distracted by so many
other things, like, should we add this software tool, or should we use this AI thing, or
whatever. But at the core of it, it's like, if you don't really understand who's
your customer and why are they buying and positioning through messaging, whether that's on
statics, whether that's through landing pages, whether that's through videos, If you're not
truly understanding that and and really kind of tightening and clarifying
why somebody should buy from you, all that account structure really means nothing.
No bid cap is gonna save you from a bad ad. Right? At the end of the day, you still need to have
great ads. At the end of the day, you still need to have a true understanding of your customer.
So I think clear out the noise. Like, yes, you wanna think about what how
structure account structure is working, But spend ten x the time actually, like,
looking at your customer reviews, talking to your customers, and thinking about interesting ways to
shoot your products versus being, like, spending so much time, in the account.
Because, again, what's gonna really move the needle is understanding how you're actually
talking about your product to consumers. It's competitive out there, so you really need to
be focusing in on that. So that's that's what we've always done. But just doubling down on
just keeping things simple and basic to that because I think it's so easy to get distracted
elsewhere. Yeah. I love that, Matt. I think there's, like, a simplicity and a rising above the
noise and a quality level that you're you're keeping in mind, you're focused on.
When you those in d two c e comm, come to you for help in ads
and in in video shot and shooting, what kind of clients are you kind of
finding kind of that magic? And what are you typically seeing? What what's like a
good fit for what you and your team are doing? Yeah. The best thing I would say is we're
looking to work with companies that are an est company. This is a new
this is a new phrase publishing out for the first time in in public. I've been saying it in calls. But then
est company is an est company. What does that mean? It means that
you can describe their product with the superlative, the best, the
finest, the first, whatever it is. Right? But there's a superlative that's connected
with their product. And why do I say that? It's because if
you, as a brand, wanna stand out, you should be unique. Your product is unique. You feel
like you are one of one. You don't even have competitors because you know you
are you're creating your own journey and own category. But yet, why does
the content look the same as everybody else? Right? So I'm not saying always use do
the prettiest stuff or the ugliest stuff, but my point is is that your content
should have a unique plan. So what we try to do is try to connect and understand what makes
you unique and how can you have creative that actually helps you stand out to be unique. And if
people can understand what makes you special and what makes your product special, they're gonna
wanna buy. So what we try to do is uncover that and then actually go out and produce
that content for them. Got it. And so, like, if I could kinda just
dumb down what you guys do, you're creating video ads,
ads that perform well on social. Is it can you kinda share more about
the just basic nuts and bolts of what you're doing for these kind of top tier brands? Yeah. So the
biggest unique factor to Guto Studios is the fact that we don't work with creators. So most providers
out there, they say, oh, we do ad creative. Most likely, they are
doing some sort of creative strategy, but they're kind of arbitraging between creator and brand.
And they're just kind of like the middleman, and they're constantly seeking after creators and things like
that. Nothing wrong with that. It's just there's a lot of people out there. What makes us
different is that when we are working with a brand, you're working only with our
team. We're gonna go deep on who's your customer, why are they buying, then we actually write
out all the scripts. We shoot stuff in person. So we work with actors.
We rent out spaces. We produce everything, in house. So if you need a
grandmother, we can get that. If you need a child on camera, we can get that. We can get anybody or
anything you want. Dog, we can get that too. And then we can shoot
everything in house because and and so we could shoot hi fi, so we could shoot with our cinema cameras, we could
shoot on an iPhone. So really, like, for whatever brand, whatever they need, we can we can make
happen. So we have the most, like, kind of control. And I think that's what I think
is really great for brands. Love that. I love that control and ability to
create original content from scratch that performs. That's that's huge to have
access to a lot of that. You kind of referenced ugly ads versus pretty
ads. Barry, our friend, talks about this. We've seen it live
and in action. And it's kind of I think through it, it's very core to the
theme of the podcast of learnings from d to c com, learnings from the ads that you put out.
Whether it's ugly or pretty or authentic, like, what are you witnessing
in the learnings from these great ads and these videos and these creations that you're you're
putting together? I'd love to dig into maybe some of the observations and learnings and trends that
you're seeing right now. Yeah. So, honestly, like, I have had so many conversations
with Barry, whether it's publicly or within DMs and and have had many
calls with him, and I love his philosophy. Honestly, we we actually
agree a lot, but I think we always like, I think I've laughed with him. Like, I feel like we say
the same thing, but we come at it from two different angles. But I think a great ad was never a
great ad because of what the camera was. Okay? Point blank. Like, it was never great because
of, being an iPhone or because it was a cinema camera. It's great because of the
intention behind what was created. Why was this created? Who is this
for? I think the biggest distraction that happens is that people just kind of make an
like, they hear these things. And and I think that's, like, the dangerous thing of just saying make ugly ads
is because I think sometimes not like, Barry has the nuance. He understands
that. But I think what happens is and what's scary is that people just say, oh, like, he said
make ugly ads? Like, so we're gonna only do iPhone or, like, only do whatever,
which is, like, true and good. But really, it's, like, what
he's really trying to, like, get at and which I agree on is, like, you gotta meet the
consumer with where they're at. But at the end of the day, you still need the fundamentals of a great ad.
Right? So you need to really be speaking to that person. So I always, like, wanna
always preface that. I think where there is some interesting stuff when it comes
to what camera you use is when you use a nicer camera, you actually can get
some really interesting different shots that you can't get with an iPhone. And so
that allows you to have a little bit more elasticity or flexibility with what you're shooting or
how you shoot something. And depending on the brand, that might be really a great
opportunity. It might not be for every op it may not be for every brand. It may not be for every
single ad. But you also don't wanna rule out what cameras you're using,
so I always look for that. And then the last thing is is, like, you always need to be authentic.
You always need to be speaking to who is your customer. Right? So
whether you're shooting that on an iPhone or a nice camera, it needs to speak to the right
person. And so you can't be all things to all people, but you really need to understand
who's your customer and and why they're buying. I think that, like, people get so distracted
by a lot of this other stuff that they don't really know why a customer's buying from them. And
that's honestly the more tragic thing, not because somebody used on brand
visuals or not on brand visuals. It's most likely because didn't actually speak to the
customer, specifically. Yeah. I love that. We've something
we've, incorporated a lot in our work is really emphasizing speaking with the
customer, and we've even done that in our own work as well. What are some
of the things that you've uncovered in going through some of the customer insights and and
speaking to the customer? I think one of the biggest things that I love to do is just find
stories. So a lot of times, like, there's always so many interesting stories on
reviews, and you're just like, wow. Like, some people just take the time to really
talk about the impact or something that was really great about the product. And you're just like,
that in and of itself is an ad. Like, let's make a script off of that. So that's one thing. I think
the other thing is that what we find is when you are working
in a brand for, like, a long time, you start to make assumptions because you know so much
about the product, you know so much about the brand that you just kind of forget that,
like, people have don't know who you are or what you do.
And I call this I've termed this, like, the Nutcracker rule. So when I was a professional dancer,
I did Nutcracker for fourteen years. I've done over a thousand performances of it. I know
everything about The Nutcracker. But even on my eight hundredth show in
my tenth year or whatever it was, I've been doing it forever. I know everything about it. But there
was somebody in that room, in that theater, that for the first time
was watching The Nutcracker, and I need to make it as magical for
them as it was eight hundred shows ago. And in the same
way, we need to apply The Nutcracker Rule to our ads. I don't care how many
times you've seen their product, I don't care how many ads you've run or whatever, most likely,
unless you can unless you're Nike, right, where if I say Nike, you know exactly what I'm talking about,
most likely, if I just go up to a random stranger and say some random brand name, they don't know who you are.
So we wanna make sure that we are still speaking to that person. And
that, I think, is, like, the awareness issue that a lot of brands kinda get
stuck in. And I think even for us, I have to push my team of, like, hey. When we start working with
the brand for, like, twelve months, I'm like, we are now in that bias.
We have now kind of crossed over to where they were twelve months ago. So
as a partner to them, we need to break every single
rule again just like we did when we first came in to help understand, like,
hey. Just because we're reaching three million customers, that means that there's still three
hundred million Americans that still need this product. Right? So, like, we still have a long way to go. So
So we wanna make sure that we're we're missing that. We're not making a mistake of having that
awareness bias, which I think I've seen a lot in a lot of brands and even in our own
sales. So we're trying to combat that internally as well. I love that. That's a huge that's a
huge call out of of the value of, like, speaking to customers and and also the value
of checking some of those inherent, fatigue or bias or thought process
at the door to really rethink and get the best possible outcome for clients and for your
work. So I think that's just spot on. Kind of a related topic, you talk about
authenticity. I talk about it a ton with my team. We talk about it a ton with our clients.
It's a huge part of, you know, what we're doing around, you know, securing trusted
content, getting, like, influencers and affiliates on board to really talk, candidly
about your products, pros and cons. But, you know, in the ad creation process and the
video production process, how do you kind of, like, manufacture that?
How do you bring that real authenticity out, since it's being shot
from scratch? Yeah. Honestly, this is, like, is this the
hardest part? I think one of the biggest things that we try to do is
whenever we're working with an actor, right, they're gonna come on, but we have everything prepared,
so we brief them before they show up to the actual shoot. We have them
interact with the product. So we are I will physically be there, and I will
sell them on the product, which as a side note, try to sell
your item, your product to a person in real time. It's a really different
experience because you're actually seeing the reaction. You're seeing if they light up or if they
don't care at all. So that's just a great way to, like, learn if you can actually sell a product. But what I try
to do is I try to get them to light up. Right? I try to to understand what the product is,
what is the goal of these videos. From there, the team will then go and shoot the
content. We'll do the b roll. We have, like, voice overs that we have them run through. But one of
the other kind of key components that we try to do is now they've interacted with the product, they understand
what we're trying to go for, we do what we like to call prompting. We'll ask them questions and
just say, hey. Can you just give us, like, naturally, what do you think? Right? And we had one product
that is a is for women and and basically, like, a lot for younger women. Right?
But the target demo actually, the target buyer is, like, moms. So moms buying it for
their kids or, you know, kids going to college, etcetera. And what we did, we
just asked this person, like, hey. Like, you know, if you, like, if you were to give this to your daughter,
like, what would you say? Why would you wanna use this? And she just genuinely just, like,
shared. Like, I have a daughter. This is why. And we were able to kind of extract
that, you know, from her. And, yes, we had this script that was
dialed into direct response copywriting, but then we were also able to pepper in some of
this more genuine, experience. Because now that she's understood
the mission, she's understood the product, how it's used, she was actually using the product and feeling it
with her own hands, now she can talk about it in a way that's genuine. So those are some things that we're
trying to do. We're still trying to get better at it. It's it is not easy to do.
I think everybody's struggling with that. Obviously, like, ideally, you have your just, like, your true
customer just come in and talk. But you're not always gonna get, like, the best video, so you
really wanna create that environment that feels comfortable. We are that's, like,
the biggest conversation we've had internally. We're still trying to crack the code, but I think we do a fairly
good job with what we have so far. Yeah. I love that. I love that being able to kind
of capture some of those real moments that are that are actual human reactions that can
be integrated into the story that can perform well.
Similar thought and very related to the thought of experimentation and testing and learning, which is
obviously central to what we talk about on this pod. How do you handle
some of the volume requirements of clients? How do you get the
learnings out of it? How do you think about AB testing in this
world? Obviously, it's trickier in some ways because, you know, you've got a lot of
variables. You've got video. You've got actors. You've got dynamic things that stories to
tell. I'd love to hear just how do you kinda handle the scale, volume, and kind of test and
learn desires of clients and brands. Yeah. That's a great question.
I think that, like, realistically, you can't get extremely
scientific, like, down to, like, one change because there's so much
that happens. The other part of that is, you know, ninety five percent of human thought is
subconscious, and our subconscious thinks in, emotions
and experiences, not even in words or language. So it is fairly
hard to, like, actually truly, like, pinpoint exactly why things happen. So
if you can just first let that, like, sit, then that doesn't put as
much pressure on, like, did we get the exact, like, scientific AB
test? That being said, I think that you wanna balance like,
I think where people maybe go wrong with their, like, testing with ads specifically
is, like, let's say you get, you run an ad, you get the data back. A lot
of people, instead of just iterating slightly off of that, they will,
like, do, like, a net new concept. They'll, like, take that learning and they'll be, like, let's do a
whole new video. And I think that might be too general. Like, you can't get super specific. But I
think that there's plenty of times where one ad could, based on the data, you could
basically maybe go like three or four different ways. And, like, from there, try those three
or four different ways and, like, go that route versus being, like Yeah. Net new,
like, sort of thing. So you can't go too granular, but you can't go too wide
or too broad either. It's super interesting. It's like you could go almost like
different actors, same everything else, different call to action, same you know, I'm just
thinking out loud here, and I think, obviously, you have to be macro and careful. You're not gonna be able to
test every variable like you said. But, you know, different color schemes, different backgrounds,
maybe it it's featuring a different, you know, value prop of the product.
Is that kind of in line with how you might think about maybe making medium changes
as opposed to, like, reinventing the wheel? Yeah. And and I would really
use data to kinda help us make those decisions. So, you know and I think a
lot of times, like, not everything's gonna work right off the bat. So let's say you have, like, a static. I
might not let's say we have three different headlines for the same static.
Like, I might find the like, let's take the top one of
three that has the highest click through rate. Okay. Awesome. Let's say that's a winner.
Now maybe we wanna do the same headline and everything, but with, like, two different
backgrounds and see if we can optimize that. Maybe that's the best one. Maybe there's another one. I kinda go from
there. But, like, I wouldn't, like, try to iterate on all three and, like, now
you've got, like, nine you know, it just becomes this massive tree. So I try to, like,
simplify it because, you know, you gotta always even though we are the creative, even though we're
not running budgets and running these accounts, you have to understand how accounts work, which
is, like, you still gotta test, like you know, you still gotta put at least, like, 05:10 k sorry.
Five to ten times the AOV just to run these tests. So, like, you know, you don't wanna get too
granular where you're, like, you kind of are not able to like take you
can't take a like you don't wanna go for bunts. You wanna go for doubles, triples on these iterations. And
then with the net new stuff, you're going for home runs. There's a slugging percentage here, you know. And it and it
it it it depends on what you're trying to do. So that's kind of my main thing is, like, use the
data to kinda help you. Like, I'm not the biggest fan of being, like, let's change, like, the CTA
on a video. I'm, like, like, I don't know if that's gonna really make the biggest difference. I feel, like, maybe
what's being said or what's being shown throughout the video is gonna compel them more than being like, oh, dang.
They said buy now instead of, like, learn more. You know? I mean, maybe, but data. Yeah. There's too
much else going on in the video that that that supersedes that, and I think you hit the nail on the
head. I think you gotta go you gotta keep it somewhat simple and you gotta also think about those
macro levels levers that are gonna make the biggest impact, which I think is spot on. And
just to kinda quickly off of that, like, just Yeah. You wanna work with
your the key as a creative is work with your media buyer who
can help forecast like, okay, here's what the spend is for the month. So
realistically, let's say you're at two hundred k a month, right? Okay. Well, you wanna maybe
let's say you wanna do ten percent of that towards a test like, towards testing. Right? Okay. So twenty
k. Awesome. But, like, you know that let's say it's, like, a thousand dollars
for a test, let's just say for even numbers. That means you need twenty
ads. Right? You need twenty ads to hit that twenty k budget. Right? And that's all
forecasted. So, you know, it's not it's approximate. It's not specific and, like, you
know, those levers might go up or down depending on performance. But, like, just by purely
looking at that, like, in looking at the forecast for the month, maybe for the quarter, that can
help you kind of backtrack as the creative, what do we need to create? Like, do
we really need to create five iterations if we you know, are we gonna use twenty five percent
on one iteration of, like, one ad? Like, probably not. Right? So, like, it just is
helpful to work with your media buyer and forecasting budgets and testing
budgets so that you can actually break down, like, realistically what you need.
Statics might be cheaper than videos. So, like, how many statics do you want versus videos? These are things
that, like, we wanna do to kind of, like, be a better provider. So I think,
like, also think about that before you just, like, start coming up with a million ideas because, like,
that's it's gotta align with the budget too. It's not created in a vacuum.
And if you're thinking about it through the context of budget, ROI, goals, KPIs
with a great media buyer like Round Barn Labs, you know, and and and then teaming up
with a great creative team like Guto, I think you're in a great spot. So I I love I love your
direction there. You had some really interesting comments throughout that I'd love to
just kind of, double click on a little bit. You kind of talked about kind of five to ten x
AOV. Would you mind maybe sharing a little bit more about that part of it? Yeah.
So there's more to that than just budget. Right? I think
there's also, like, a time horizon as well. Like, when when
we're working with the brands, like, we are trying to
like, they know their they have their account. Like, they've kind of have dialed that in a lot more.
So, like, you know, all this is just approximate stuff. Like, I think and every brand is different.
Like, we're working with the brand that's, like the AOV is, like, two thousand dollars. Right? So it's,
like, a very different thing versus something that's, like, thirty bucks. Right? So every brand is
obviously gonna be different. So the key is to first understand, like, what are the metrics
that are, like, find success? Like, is it are you looking for cost acquisition, like a CAC?
Or are you looking at MER or a ROAS target or something like
that, right? So like that's number one to kinda understand when you're in the testing. Then we are
looking at like, you know, okay, we need some money to go to actually test
this. The key though is the time horizon. So you don't wanna just blow, like, let's say it's like
five times AOV, but it's all in one day, like on a random Tuesday. It's like, Woah.
What, like, would that what would that be like in the swing of the whole week? So ideally, you
gotta have like the balance between like a week in terms of time in the market, but
then also, like, budget wise. Granted, I'm not, like, the media buyer, so I'm not, like,
like, super, like Yeah. Into how it all goes. But, like, ideally, that's just kinda
what we're trying to do. Because before we make Yeah. Changes on iterations
and things like that, we wanna make sure, like, hey. Did we give this a shot? Give us the most, like,
statistical significance on the data that we can actually trust that data to say, okay. Let's make some decisions
here, whether it's Yeah. Change it or keep scaling it or whatever. So that's the biggest thing for
us. Yeah. You're coming at it from such a great mindset because you're you're empathetic to the
levers that the media buyer can pull. You are aware of the pretty important
factors that the brand is considering when they're thinking about return for the investment.
So I love I love where your head's at, and it just, echoes a lot of the collaboration and work we've
done. So so tip of the cap, the dad gang cap to you again.
Right. Yes. Exactly. Repping the brand. I love it. You had
another really cool point. You talked about kind of, like, mix of home runs to bunts along
that spectrum. Can you share a little bit more about what you mean by that? Yeah. So,
for example, look, sometimes you're gonna strike out as a reality. Right?
So, you know, a Hall of Fame career, you're hitting you're batting three hundred percent. I
mean, hey, you're hitting three out of ten. Right? So that's a so just thinking about that. Right?
So not everything's gotta be a winner. But there's definitely plenty of times where, you know, let's say something's
getting, like, five thousand dollars of spend. It didn't blow up. It didn't there
wasn't anything amazing about it, but it wasn't terrible either. We wanna say, okay.
Let's say that's a single. Right? You're on first base. Can we do something
about that where we can improve it? Right? So that's when we're looking at the creative metrics,
and then we're saying, okay. Like, oh, like, that was like let's and a lot of times this
happens when, you know, brands are running maybe some, like, influencer content on paid or maybe they got some
video sent over. People are not, like, direct response creative people all the
time. So maybe it's like a great, like, testimonial video, but it's like, oh, like, that hook
wasn't really great or, you know, it wasn't didn't have it was kind of like a boring cut. Maybe we can add
some stuff in there. And that's when we come in and and do what I like to call framing. Framing
is taking something that feels like kinda like maybe almost too organic and adding in some
of that kind of direct response, like framing to it to kind of give it a little bit
more kind of meat on the bone, if you will. And that can hopefully upgrade that from a single
to a double or to a triple, right, where you're getting like fifteen ks on spend on that or twenty ks
of spend. Maybe it doesn't end up being like this home run, but you are Yep.
Extracting value out of that content. Most brands Yeah. Have a lot of
content that, like, kinda did alright. But if they just add a little bit more
framing, you might be able to really get some efficiency out of there. Right? So there's there's there's
that's truth to account structuring, like bid caps, cost caps, CBO, ABO, all
that fun stuff. But it's also true with the creative itself. There's a lot of times where some some stuff is, like, solid.
You're getting some good signal there, but it just, like, not enough to, like, really hit, like,
that hundred k spend or a million k you know, a million spend. But if you could do some some
changes, maybe some mashups, all of a sudden, you have a whole new ad that could, like, really take
off. So that's what we like to kind of look at as well. We wanna be hitting for those home runs where we're
coming up with the scripts and all brand new visuals. But then there's a bunch of other stuff that it's like, hey. There are
men on there are men on base. Let's get them home. Right? Let's let's try and find Yeah. How we can do that if, you know, we
keep to the baseball, analogy there. I respect the sports analogy. I respect very much
respect the baseball analogy. And I and I think you've brought us some really interesting things.
Framing, can you define that for the audience that might not know what that means? What I mean
by framing is, let's say somebody, like, just posted a video
on TikTok and, you know, you get the rights to use it. But it's basically just them, like,
oh my gosh. Guys, I love this product. And they're, like, they're just kinda, like, babbling
along or whatever. Yep. And maybe they don't even have captions on it. They just run it just, like,
raw. Like, does does decent. What I like to do is say, okay, let's just
take some basic principles that we know of ads, ad creative that
works, and let's add let's just add some framing to it. So we just basically are kind
of editing the video to have some, like, structural
aspects of good ad creative, hence framing, right? So it's like, you've got this canvas, it's
great, it's flimsy, just we gotta frame it up, make it look like it's presentable, Right? And you can
almost it almost creates a whole new look and feel of the the video. So that's kinda what we're trying to
do. That's great. I think people appreciate that not as aware with with all
the, you know, inside baseball to keep that analogy going. And then you kind of reference,
like, okay, now it is spending x y z dollars. Okay. Now it is spending x y z
dollars. For the audience, are you are we're reiterating the point of, like, hey. We're looking at
a number of metrics to assess an ad's performance and its success. But what you're
getting at is that, hey. We put this MediaBio puts this into paid social. We see
that one's spending much more than the other, and the algorithm's favoring it. Therefore, it's performing better. Is
that kind of what you're getting at there? Yeah. I mean, all the algorithms are
incentivized to find buyers. Right? Like, that's, like, the biggest thing. You wouldn't keep spending if you weren't finding
buyers. So I think that there is a good signal, especially now where a lot of
how media buying is, from my understanding, is is really trusting the algorithm. Right? So it's you're kind
of putting it in and finding it. Like, it used to be very much, like, find the right audience, and then, like,
it used to be heavy on structure. Now it's a lot less than that. So
finding spend gives me a good signal that, like, hey. Facebook clearly
is seeing, like, that this is, like, there's something here. So I look at that. I
look at again, you need to know what are the targets. Right? Every brand is different.
MER, ROAS, CAC, all this stuff. Right? So, like, know that going into it.
So I look at spend. I look at let's just let's say CAC just so it's easier
for today. We look at those two things. That, like, space value, is it
getting spent? Is it hitting your targets? Yes or no. If it's yes, like, great.
Like, let's see. Maybe is there a way to optimize the ad? Maybe you could improve some stuff. But also, like,
keep running it. If it's not Love it. But it's getting some good signal but not getting the conversion,
awesome. Like, let's iterate on that. Let's try and see what where we need to go. If it's not getting the
conversion and not getting great signal, have a conversation. Do we wanna kill this ad or
do we wanna try something differently? So there's kinda three responses to that. But it's
it all starts with, like, spend and and your acquisition, like, North Star metric.
Love it. No doubt. Hooks are such an important piece. Right? You wanna stop that thumb scroll. We wanna get people's
attention. What are some of the best hooks that you've seen or or you you your and your team have
created? Yeah. So I'm gonna shout out to this brand because I have seen this brand, and I
am like, I'm freaking out. Also, it's a pretty ad. So I just
wanna say, you know, this is why I like it. It's called Kion, k I o
n. And I did a tweet about this, which was just like, who the heck are
these people, and how are these the most fire ad hooks ever?
So when I look at this stuff, I'm like, this is amazing. So basically, what they do
is I can send you over, like, so that we can have it maybe in the the the
show notes, but I'll just describe it out loud. It's a supplement and, you know, so you
basically have, like, your little container, and the person's basically going in to
kinda scoop out the powder. And the hand goes through the,
whatever, this container, and then it goes into, like, them doing an exercise. Like,
it is this crazy transition. And if, like, you were listening to this, you go
to the show notes. You'll we'll link my tweet thread on and I show you all the different
ones. It is blows your mind. But basically, like, one of the guys is, like, puts his hand in,
and then all of a sudden, he's just, like, swimming. And you're like, what the heck? And then
and the whole like, it's a silent ad. There's there's no talking or anything, which I love.
And you just get, like, you get the understanding, like, this thing is gonna give you
energy to do whatever that is. Right? And so it's just a really amazing,
really smart way, and I love it. And it and it just goes to show you that it was
never about the camera. Right? So that's the key why I like this. It's like, yes,
it's highly produced. It looks high end, which I think personally as a visual
brand for a supplement makes you trust it because it's like, you know, it's a high priced
item. You kinda wanna make sure that you're not buying something sketchy. So a nice visual brand
does it. But they were able to still build visuals that hook.
And they were able to do that because they had a nice camera, so they were able to do things that an iPhone couldn't do. Right? So
that's the beauty of being that's why you don't wanna just always throw it out and say, like, oh, it's gotta be
UGC iPhone stuff. Because then you wouldn't have been able to do something like that that has captured people's
attention. And it was truly, I see so many ads. I was on the
couch. That made me stop. I said, what the heck is this? Love it. And and so,
like, it genuinely came up into my feed, and it was amazing. Yeah. That's
so cool. I love that. Appreciate that. So excited. Is there an ad that you
call that you recall, you know, either within your portfolio or similar things
that you've just seen just, like, from a data perspective or you've heard anecdotally that's just,
like obviously, this could be one of those, but is there one that's maybe
different from that that just just was a workhorse and performed extremely well or
maybe perhaps better than you expected? Yeah. I can tell you one that I almost didn't
run, and it's now got a million dollars in spend. So what do I know? Right?
So take everything I say with the greatest self because, man, my bias almost got in the
way, and that's a difference of a million dollars for one of our clients. So, you know
Love it. I gotta watch out. Yeah. So it it really humbled me. But what I the reason why
was this. So we're we're shooting, and the person was the ideal customer.
Right? Look, feel, everything. They weren't like, what we tried to do we, like, legitimately
when I say, like, actors, like, sometimes we just get people we know. Right? We try to get, like, just regular people.
Right? These are not, like, professional professional actors that we're working with. Right? We're just, like, trying to find
we source them on Instagram. We're just on Facebook. Like, we're just trying to find random people.
Anyway, this person comes in because it's a friend of a friend, and they're, like, this,
you know, forty five year old woman, perfect for this product, all this stuff. And, like,
she was, like because she's a friend of a friend, she's not like she, like, knows how to hit lines or whatever.
So she's, like, it's kinda awkward. And I remember, like, I was actually shooting this.
Like, some my my team member who was actually shooting she was shooting something else. So I happened to be doing
the lines with her, and I was like, man. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not feeling this. Like, she wasn't hitting lines. Like,
legitimately, like, looking off screen, coming back and, like, hitting lines. Like, things I was, like, yo.
Like, okay. Whatever. But we were, like, going through it. And we're, okay. Like, you know what?
It's fine. Like, she does it and she Yeah. So we do this.
And it was, like, her voice over like, it was her her main voice over. But then
we also added in, like, other women, like, using the product and showing it off. So it was a little bit of
a mash up, so it wasn't just a solo person. But, like, overall, like, the delivery is
good, but it it does feel, like, a little bit more, like, awkward or, like, whatever.
And it just crushed. Like, you just we haven't be been able to beat it. And
it's so funny because I was, like, told my team. I was, like, I almost said no to this.
Okay? And it was just such a great thing where it was like Yeah. Why
does this work? And one of the key things that we picked off of this that we're trying to do
more of is sometimes when people are talking to the camera, and they're just,
like, barreled down, like, just straight into the eyes of the camera. That's not how most people talk.
Right? Like, most people can't really keep eye contact. And a lot of times when people are talking genuinely,
they always, like, look away to kinda, like, gather their thoughts and gather their words and then look
back. So in some ways, because she was, like, try she was, like, kinda
stumbling in a way that felt, like, kinda authentic,
it really, like, worked. And it was kinda funny. So now we're actually telling people, like, hey. Like, we're not
saying, like, make mistakes, but we're kinda, like, it's okay to make mistakes. Like, you don't need to, like, hit these
lines perfectly. In fact, look off camera, try to figure it out. But just one of those things where it's
like, dang. It just I don't know. Like, I was didn't feel it, like, personally.
But Yeah. A million dollars would spend, you know. I love it. I don't know what to say to that. That's a
winner. Right? So it's good. I'm amazed by how often if you line up ads
and copy and things and you you get people's vote on what's gonna perform best,
it's very difficult to predict and people often get it wrong. So one, you're not
alone. And, two, I think it's, you know, it's it's a very interesting learning, and I think you've uncovered
something there, which is, which you're trying to understandably
duplicate, replicate, improve upon, which is which is what this is all about. This is awesome.
Absolutely. What's, like, a best practice or trend that in your
world, you know, video ads just took off or in social ads just took off that you
think is maybe starting to fatigue or maybe is starting to no longer
perform like it once did? I think that with the rise of TikTok,
you know, there was you could pretty much post any kind of, like,
just video from iPhone and all this stuff even without, like, great direct
response, like, content. And I think that's where, you know, we did get that swing of,
like, ugly ads and things like that. Right? The downside is is that there's a lot
of fundamentals that were never really there. And so I think just, like, it's
more of the economy than anything. The economy's catching up. Think about it. Twenty twenty,
twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, it's like, it was ripping. Right? It's
a very different game that we're playing. Right? So the market is different.
So it's really not necessarily a trend that's going down. It's just more
so you have to be keyed in to your ads and how they're being created.
So, again, I'm not here to say, like, UGC is dead or, you know, any of this other
stuff. Yeah. I'm just saying that you need to have your fundamentals
down. Every single brand is trying to be profitable,
get cost low, all this stuff. It's going to happen when you
dial in your position, when you dial in how like, who's your customer and why
they buy, which is kind of what we've talked about since the beginning of this whole thing. That is
going to be the key. So is it a trend that's dying on it? Yeah. I don't think that you can, like, just get away
with just letting it rip on a on a phone and just saying, like, okay. That's good enough. Let's do a hundred of
these. I think you gotta be way more strategic. I think there was some bad habits that
were created and were rewarded because of stimulus money
that, like, people were buying things without real reason. But now
that debt is climbing up. There the the money has, you know, gone away. So, like,
you you can't get away with those bad habits anymore. So I think the brands that
really have the fundamentals down know who their customer is and is really keyed in
there and can do great ads, great direct response copywriting
and scripting and shooting, those are the winners. So it's not really a trend as much as it's
like, hey, it's time to, like, you know, the bad habits, if you've got them, you
gotta start retraining the team to make sure that they've got the right stuff. Yeah. Exactly. It reminds me
of the law of shitty click click throughs by Andrew Chan. I mean, people rush to the next thing.
TikTok ads are no longer shooting fish in a barrel. You're competing with Timu spending
a billion dollars, and you you need to spend more. You need to get more. You need to have better
hook rates. You need to have better better everything. And like you said, those fundamentals if those
fundamentals are not there, you're gonna get your butt kicked. So I think you're really on to something that
these emerging channels are fantastic, but they all fatigue. They all
mature. They all go through those life cycles. And so what a what a great point. Love that
stuff. Yeah. Definitely. You know, Matt, you're growing your business. It's exciting.
You go through those those waves of challenges and opportunities and positives. Can you share
a little bit about, like, you know, what are you looking for for kind of your
for your culture, for your company at at Guto, and and what what you're kind of look
for in hires in in your world? My superpower is the team. Right?
So it's not even me. And my goal is just creating a great environment
for creative people. So most companies don't know how to manage creative people because they don't
understand, like, the energy flow that it takes to do creative work, and that's why they burn out a lot.
My goal is to create a great environment to do that. Now one of the biggest things that I'm
looking for is just, like, the muscle to create or the
passion to create. I think there's, like, a huge sentiment out there of, like, hire
fast, fire faster. I think that's a that's just so wrong.
Because most of the time, it's because you didn't train them good, or train them well. Like, you just
assume, like, dang. Like, they're just gonna come in and just let it rip. But it's like, they have no idea what's going
on in your brand or agency or whatever. So what I'm trying to do is I'm
really trying to focus on people that actually, like, have the desire to create. So
I'll give you a great example. I was looking for somebody to help film all this content. I went
on TikTok. I searched for people in Seattle, and I found somebody who was in college
at the time. Didn't have really a big following, but was just creating skin care
content and all this stuff. The reason why I hired her was because
she without a following, without any, you know, paid reason to
create, she created. Right? Other people applied to that job who said, I wanna be in social
media. Okay. Yeah. It's great that you say that. But when I look you up on Instagram and you have no videos,
like, do you really wanna be there? Like, do you really wanna because, like, this other person over here is, like,
creating even though they have no there's no kind of, like, money
coming in. So it's that passion to create, that's really hard
to teach. But if you give me that passion, I can teach you ads. I can teach
you marketing. I can teach you everything. But if you just have that passion for what you're doing,
that's what I'm looking for. So those are the big things that I want people to see. Now
there's gonna be times where we're gonna be hiring for other positions that are not like
in the video space. But I still wanna see like your desire.
Because I could that's e it's easy to coach and train and you should do that. But
having the desire to, like, wanna create or wanna show up to something, that is harder to
find, but that can that's a make it, break it for your culture as a team. And,
honestly, to have the most, like, the best creative, you gotta have the most collaborative
space possible. And so you have to make sure that people, like, really wanna show up and be there.
I had one of my team members yesterday. We were chatting. She's like, this is the
first job that I come back from vacation, and I'm like, don't dread. And I'm
like, yeah. Because we've built a great environment where everybody wants to be
there. So it just makes it super easy for everybody to show up and be them their best selves. So
that's really one of the core things that I'm looking at for team members. I love that.
It's awesome to hear, and I think I think there's such so much to that
supporting, fostering the passion and the energy and the enthusiasm
and educating, coaching, and kind of enabling that. It's it's it's a a fantastic
point. You you've done some awesome things, man. This has been so interesting and so learn and such a
good learning, I think, getting into some of the details and also some of the macro things. Where do
you wanna take, Godot Studios? Yeah. I mean, the North Star for us is we'll
be shooting, Super Bowl commercials. So that's that's that's the overall, like, long term
goal. I think for a lot of people out there, like, I think when
agencies, you know, get a bad rep, it's mainly because, like, the person starting
the agency is doing it for, like, money or doing it for, like,
something other than the passion of the work. But I'm doing it
for the passion of the work. Like, I love to do this. Like, I honestly I'm like, I'm not, like, an entrepreneur.
I'm not, like, actually a founder. I'm just, like, artist that was, like, I'm using business as a vehicle to do
the thing that I've always wanted to do, and I'm building a team to
fulfill the art that I wanna be able to do. Right? And so the reason why we wanna grow
is we wanna be helping more brands understand their customer and why they're buying and create
ads that convert, but also so that we can start to work with some of these other
bigger brands to take all the stuff that we've learned and grown from. Like, we have built such an
efficient process. There's so much bloat in the big
production companies. They take, like, twenty million people just to get one shot. They
take a full day just to get one shot. It, like, kills me. Basically, just, like, brands
overpay for, like, not great creative that's, like, has no connection to marketing. They're just, like,
what's the coolest lens that we can use? And it's, like, yeah. But who cares about the lens
if he has no touch to marketing and, like, the reason why people buy? So I think there's a lot
of opportunity for us to go upmarket and build the production, and that's really our
goal. But, yeah, we that's that's what we're building. And every year, we're just gonna keep chipping
away, as we grow, but we're growing out of a passion. Right? So we're growing a team that's
passionate, and that's, like, the biggest thing that I need to protect. Like, it's not growth at all
costs. It's building the team that is excited to create, wants to be
here. And if I was, like, younger, to me, I'm, like, getting paid
to create. Like, that's, like, the dopest job. Like, that's what I wanna be able to do is get young people in here to
say, like, hey. Like, you can actually get paid to create, which I wish I was able to do when I was twenty.
I kinda had to pave that path for myself. But now I I wanna give people opportunities where
you're like, hey. You can be your most creative self here. Like, let's shoot for the fences, and let's do
something together and collaboratively. So that's what I'm excited about. This is awesome, Matt. I I feel
like we could go so much longer. We've taken we've almost gone a full hour on just some
great detail, your journey, where you're going, where where you wanna take this, and I I
really appreciate you sharing. I think this is one of my better ones because I think
we've we've been able to kind of pull back the curtain on ads, video,
gen you know, creating that authenticity and and really talking about what what works and what
doesn't. So tip the cap to you there. And, you know, for those who wanna reach
out, learn more about you, where would you suggest they connect with you?
LinkedIn, Twitter, Matthew Gutozzi, so just my full name.
Very easy. We got a new site coming up as very soon, which I'm excited about
because our our current site sucks. Watch out. So watch out. And, yeah. So good o studios dot
com, there's a place where you can book a call if you want to. But, honestly, just, like, DM
me, hit me up. Like, I always love chatting with anybody. So, like, before you even book a call, like,
let me know what's up and happy to help, on anything. Fantastic. Matt, you
rock, man. Always a pleasure. Hope you stay warm up in the PNW in the the
storms coming, and, we look forward to seeing you again soon. Yeah. Thank you.