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In this week's episode, we’re getting real about perimenopause—what it is, what it feels like, and why so many women are finally talking about it. From hormone shifts to mood swings, sleep struggles to brain fog—perimenopause touches every part of life. We open up about our own experiences, from unexpected symptoms to the emotional rollercoaster, and dive into why there’s a growing movement right now to break the silence around this stage of life. We also reflect on what we learned from Oprah’s eye-opening special and share insights from leading experts like Dr. Mary Claire Haver and others who are pushing this conversation forward. We also talk about the importance of community, why it’s crucial to advocate for yourself, and how leaning on friends (and good information) can make all the difference.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:01.102)
Hello, welcome to The Shrinkdown. It has been a while. Yes, it's been a while. Today we're going to be talking about perimenopause. This has been a hot topic. were just talking about when did this become the hot topic? About the last years when we decided that this topic has been around social media, podcasts. So today we're going to be diving into perimenopause. We'll talk a little bit about why is this having its moment now.
Lauren (00:04.889)
Yeah, welcome back.
Wilhelmina (00:05.539)
Cool.
Vanessa (00:27.662)
Some of the cognitive effects, some of the physical effects, and then also, I think more importantly for us too, some of the mental health changes that a lot of women have experienced. Even talking about accepting that you're in this stage is a big thing. I know that was a big thing for me. But before we get into today's topic, we are gonna do our four minute phase. Does anybody want to start today?
Wilhelmina (00:48.059)
Well, get started. I just got back from vacation and while I was on vacation, I listened to a really good book. I listened to Say Everything, which is a memoir by Ioni Skye. Yeah, for those who don't know who Ioni Skye is, she was the female lead in the 1989 film Say Anything with John Cusack. That's the
Lauren (01:04.172)
Wilhelmina (01:18.063)
famous one where he's holding the boombox up to Peter Gabriel's In Your Eyes. So this was such a fun read because for anyone kind of of my generation, the late 80s, 90s movies, she really was like involved in so much of that scene. She had run-ins and involvements, friendships, dating with so
Lauren (01:18.363)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (01:47.558)
so many people. She and Keanu Reeves both kind of were in the same movie that hit it big for both of them, The River's Edge in 1986. That was her first movie. And Keanu's first US movie, which really put them on the map. She wrote this book as a reaction to a lot of the TikTok conversation that's out there because she dated Anthony Kiedis of the
Red Hot Chili Peppers, when she was 17 and he was 24. And they dated for several years, I think about four years. They were like living together. And of course, people somehow found these pictures of them when they were younger and now are like, my God, ew, like how did this happen? And so she sort of was like, I wanted to tell my side of the story.
Lauren (02:18.103)
yeah.
Vanessa (02:20.535)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (02:44.155)
So she does. And she, I mean, she was friends with River Phoenix. She was with Matthew Perry on his first movie. As I said, she dated Anthony Kiedis. So she's lots to say about that and his heroin addiction. And it was a wild ride. Then she was married to Adam Horowitz, who was the Beastie Boys at Ad Rock. They were married from 92 to 99.
And then she had a daughter with, I didn't know David Netto. Do you know that one, Terry? No, he's an interior designer in New York. And now she's married to Ben Lee, who's an Australian musician. like her and her brother is a model, Donovan Leach. So he was involved with Godith Peltrow. He married a model that they were using like the CK1 ad that was very famous back in the day. So like,
Teri (03:18.402)
No, no.
Lauren (03:22.331)
you
Teri (03:23.867)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (03:43.192)
It was just, I felt like I was just being able to hear about all of these inside stories of all of these people I grew up watching or listening to. And it was fascinating. I just could not stop. I kept talking to Owen about it. feel like he was like, yeah, I basically read the book with you because you were... So yeah, anyone who is interested in that, should definitely pick it up. I don't think I came out of it
Lauren (04:00.667)
Thank you so much.
Teri (04:01.776)
Yeah, quiet. tracks. That tracks.
Wilhelmina (04:13.671)
like liking her more. She was just a very fascinating person. I actually ended up watching Say Anything Again on the plane ride home, because I had to after reading it. And I was a little worried that I was going to be like, oh, am I going to like, maybe like her less after reading about all of this? But she still was just that character for me. So it didn't change anything for me. So it was great. Great read. And she reads it. So it's fun to listen to.
Lauren (04:41.145)
Very cool.
Vanessa (04:42.422)
Awesome. Lauren, what do you have today?
Lauren (04:45.083)
Ooh, I have a sweet treat. I'm sharing, are you guys familiar? Skinny Dipped brand has like the almonds and all of those kinds of things, but the little dark chocolate peanut butter cups, you can get them in a bag from Costco, has been our favorite like evening sweet treat with like, you know, my old lady cup of tea, which I have right now, but it's actually a great combination. It's a great little sweet treat. it's, I mean, you know, they use all like
Vanessa (04:50.22)
Yes, so good.
Lauren (05:13.439)
ingredients and it's low sugar and that kind of stuff. So my whole family is on them for our little kind of dessert in the house. The boys love them. Costco has a big bag. I know that is probably the most cost effective route because I think as a brand it's a little bit more expensive because they're cleaner ingredients and things like that. But you can find it anywhere. But Costco is my preferred locale for that, but they're so good. It's just like one little cup.
Wilhelmina (05:34.106)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (05:39.79)
I've only tried their almonds, so now I want to try those.
Lauren (05:41.689)
my gosh, so good. And a little pro tip, if you like a frozen like Reese's, put them in the freezer and that's really good also. So, yeah, skinny dipped. Yeah. Yes, they have that brand. Yeah, yeah. Terri, what about you?
Wilhelmina (05:47.823)
Hmm.
Vanessa (05:47.886)
Mm.
Teri (05:48.333)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (05:51.918)
Yum, I have to try those out.
Wilhelmina (05:54.004)
Thrive Market has those too.
Vanessa (05:55.63)
Do they have those?
Teri (06:01.18)
Mine is, I feel like everyone's favorite right now, White Lotus on HBO, third season. The finale just aired last night as we're recording on a Monday. It was a 90 minute finale, great season. Again, I feel like this is such a hot show right now. Everybody's talking about it when you go to social things. So I feel a bit like I'm preaching to the choir. think many people are probably already watching it maybe that are listening. Drew.
Lauren (06:04.731)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (06:20.805)
Yeah.
Lauren (06:26.137)
Hehehe
Vanessa (06:28.366)
Well, I haven't watched it, so...
Teri (06:30.278)
Two of you haven't watched it.
Lauren (06:30.587)
So we like to delay and so that we don't have to like watch, we can watch them whenever we want. So we stacked them up. So we're ready to go. So this is a good recommendation. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (06:36.198)
Hmm. Yeah.
It's a good show. It's a good show to stack. Again, I don't watch many shows or get into many shows and this one really captures my attention. I did enter it thinking how are they going to live up to the first two seasons? it watching the first episode of this season, I was like, they did it. They lived up to it. This was so good. It's got the way Mike White can write, can one develop characters and the way he can write some from such vast.
Wilhelmina (06:49.402)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (06:53.958)
True.
Wilhelmina (06:58.127)
Yep. Yep.
Lauren (07:05.775)
Yeah.
Teri (07:08.038)
perspectives of people who range the different and from the different facets of our society and the way he's able to write about what a girls trip for women in their forties looks like versus a well-to-do family from North Carolina. It's, I mean, it really just so well done. And Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver's son, I forgot what his name is. What's his name? Patrick is one of, is in it. He plays an adult child of one of the families in it.
Wilhelmina (07:31.771)
Patrick.
Lauren (07:31.835)
Patrick.
Vanessa (07:32.472)
Patrick.
Teri (07:38.184)
And at first I thought, okay, let's see what he can do. And in the first episode, he's laying on this chaise lounge and flashes a smile that looks just like Arnold Schwarzenegger's, where I sort of went, that was weird. Like you see, he looks more like Maria Shriver, but you can see the Arnold Schwarzenegger in him when he does certain facial expressions. He is a great actor. I think he's got a big future ahead of him. I was very impressed, especially as we see the arc of his character through the season.
Lauren (07:53.808)
Yeah.
Lauren (07:59.951)
Yeah.
Teri (08:07.61)
will say, and Wilhelmina and I touched on this a little bit in a private conversation, I am a tad, for those listening who've been watching and have already seen all the episodes, a smidge disappointed with how the finale went and they wrapped up certain storylines. However, as a whole, I really liked the season. All the episodes leading up to the finale were great. It's still worth a watch, but I was not super thrilled with how some of the storylines got wrapped up, but that was my personal preference.
Wilhelmina (08:19.277)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (08:30.031)
Definitely.
Wilhelmina (08:37.731)
No, Terry, Owen, I agree with you. When we wrapped, when we finished it last night, we were like, I mean, but it didn't change any of my enjoyment of the show. I really enjoyed the season. And to your point about Patrick, the first episode I was like, is he just sort of playing himself? Like a douchey rich guy? I mean, but then throughout the show, I was like, yep, he's great. The way he was able to nuance and sort of the subtle kind of shifts.
Teri (08:43.889)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
Teri (08:53.734)
Yeah.
Teri (09:02.256)
Yeah, exactly.
Wilhelmina (09:06.201)
that he had over the course of the season was, I agree, I think he's going to go far.
Vanessa (09:11.79)
So was it bad because it was, because sometimes endings are bad because they leave loose ends or because it ended, like the stories ended, like you're like, that's not how that's supposed to end. you know.
Teri (09:11.932)
He's good.
Teri (09:16.55)
Little bit.
Wilhelmina (09:16.57)
Well...
Wilhelmina (09:21.669)
felt like they needed one more episode actually. to just, I don't need everything wrapped up. And I don't think they necessarily wrap everything up in even in the past seasons, but like it almost felt like it was just like, well, let's see, we have to wrap this up. let's just, okay, we're gonna end this and then this and then this. it didn't, yeah. And it didn't, the other ones sort of felt like they, if you were thinking of an orchestra piece where you have this like,
Lauren (09:23.579)
Hmm.
Teri (09:32.922)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (09:41.582)
Too soon.
Wilhelmina (09:49.468)
kind of crescendo and then it just ends and then it kind of quietly ends and you're just like, this one felt like it, you were hitting this like crescendo and then it just sort of was like, done. And you're like, okay. So I don't know, felt like I needed just a little bit.
Teri (10:05.83)
That's a good way to put it. Yeah. How about you, Vanessa? What's your fave?
Vanessa (10:10.264)
So I am sharing today a cleaning product. So it's called, it's a long name. I wrote it down because I was like, there's no way I'm going to remember this. It's Miss Mouths Messy Eater Stain Treater. Have you ever heard of this? OK, so it's a clean product. They sell it on Amazon. Some Instagrammer I follow shares it. I think they're kind of gearing it towards kids making messes with food. But the reality is I spill stuff on my sweater all the time, my clothes. And it works.
Lauren (10:16.923)
Okay.
Lauren (10:21.467)
Hmm.
Lauren (10:37.956)
Yeah.
Vanessa (10:39.97)
so well, like to the point where like I've, you know, I might get something on like my sleeve and I'll just spray it and then just like take the little thing and wipe it down and it comes off like immediately like spaghetti sauce, like it's small. It's like, I always get the little bottles, but yes, it's like a little bottle. So could like take it with you. could throw it in your purse. Yes.
Lauren (10:41.243)
Mmm.
Lauren (10:50.255)
Eww.
Wilhelmina (10:50.363)
How?
Teri (10:51.61)
Is it small?
Teri (10:56.156)
Yeah.
Lauren (10:58.168)
I've seen this. I have seen this on Instagram. Whoa. Yeah. It's cute. Yeah.
Vanessa (11:00.822)
Yes, I'm sure you have. It's like a very colorful little bottle. Yes, and like you can get it packs of three. I'm sure they have a bigger bottle. I just get the little bottles and I just have them like all over my house. But I love this stuff. Like it's a clean product, which we like. The smell is like it's not the most pleasant smell, but it's not a smell that lingers very long. And I think because it's clean, like they don't, there's not, there's no like, there's nothing in it. There's no fragrance. It's fragrance free. But it works so good. I'm always like,
Lauren (11:06.809)
Okay. Yeah.
Well, that's good to know. Okay.
Lauren (11:16.354)
Lauren (11:20.303)
Yeah, there's nothing in it.
Teri (11:22.31)
Fragrance. Fragrance.
Lauren (11:24.346)
Yeah.
Cool.
Vanessa (11:27.662)
Gosh, this works so good. can clean it's sneakers too. I've used it on like No, yes, yes. Nothing that I have used so far have I noticed that. And like I said, I have legit sprayed it on the sweater that I'm like, I wanna keep wearing this. So I'm just like spray, get a little like cloth and I'm like, and then it just dries.
Lauren (11:31.375)
Does it leave that little mark that, you know like when you do a tide stick? It drives me nuts. Okay, good.
Wilhelmina (11:34.971)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (11:44.153)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, I'm always nervous with the tie stick, because you don't know when you're going to get that ring and when you're not. So good to know I added it to my cart. Cool.
Vanessa (11:54.092)
Yeah, so yeah, so I love it. Nothing that I have used it on so far. They made like one specifically for sneakers. I didn't think that that was necessary. I think the original one, you can just use it on the sneakers. But that is my share today. I really love that. Like if you're looking for clean products, this one's a really good one for getting stains out, good stains. That's my share.
Lauren (12:01.115)
Ooh, okay.
Teri (12:02.14)
Mmm.
Lauren (12:04.995)
Okay, cool. Awesome.
Wilhelmina (12:16.752)
That's
Lauren (12:17.251)
Awesome, awesome.
Vanessa (12:17.536)
All right, so let's get into today's topic. So, you know, we were talking a little bit before we started recording and my question was, why is perimenopause having its moment now? What do you guys think why this became this hot topic over the last year?
Wilhelmina (12:35.225)
sort of think that we are in a new generation of women getting older where women aren't just like, I just need to let myself go, you know, put on the polyester floral shirts and, you know, that's the end of my life. But you know what I'm talking about, right? You know exactly what I'm talking about. And so
Vanessa (12:52.038)
Yes.
Teri (12:52.604)
Those are my great, those are my great grandmas. Yes, my great grandmas. Yes, yes.
Lauren (12:53.307)
That's very specific.
Wilhelmina (13:03.713)
women are like, hey, we can, know, men are getting older and staying sexy and being more, being appealing still. why can't we? And so I think this just goes right along with that generation where it was, hey, this is happening. We're going to own this and we're going to make it sexy. Like we're going to, we're going to just call it out for what it is. And we aren't just,
rolling over and that's the end of our life. And that's why I think it is. It goes along with everything else of this new generation of women getting older.
Teri (13:44.283)
And I think in addition to that, so I agree that women are aging differently than prior generations. And I would say even generations above us, like our mothers, aunts, et cetera, are aging differently than their predecessors in terms of just style and hairstyles and hobbies and et cetera, longevity. And I think this is the next iteration of that. And so I think there's a trajectory. And so this is sort of the natural progression of what comes next for the next generation under that, because they've already
Wilhelmina (13:56.731)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (13:58.103)
sure.
Vanessa (14:01.518)
Longevity like a wife. Yeah.
Teri (14:14.3)
The women older than us are already aging differently than their generations above them. And I think this is sort of that next iteration. I also think we have more information available. I think that there was the HRT scare that pushed everyone on the back burner. Like, okay, we're just going to have women go through menopause. Everybody stop. And my, I mean, my knowledge, my working knowledge of what menopause was up until a year ago was
Wilhelmina (14:17.05)
Yeah, that's true.
Wilhelmina (14:33.851)
you
Lauren (14:34.383)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (14:43.43)
Hot flashes and maybe some rage, right? Some mom rage, you get irritable mood and hot flashes. And if you're not experiencing those, you're probably getting through menopause just fine. You're like, you're fine, you're untouched. And I think that has been the message for almost all women. Unless you are having pervasive hot flashes, it's like all or nothing. It's this dichotomous, you're either that and you're going through it or you're not, and that's fine.
Lauren (14:47.035)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:47.375)
Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (14:54.683)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lauren (14:54.778)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (15:11.258)
and you're okay, and if you are experiencing symptoms, it's gotta be attributed to something else. must, you probably have an autoimmune disorder that hasn't been identified. You've probably have, women are told all these other things besides what the real, what it actually is typically. Like it's gotta be a different medical condition we can treat. It's probably like that was not what it was thought to be.
Wilhelmina (15:25.147)
what it is.
Wilhelmina (15:33.819)
Well, and I mean, did your parents talk about this? Did your moms? I mean, was my mom. feel like it was like, oh, at some point, maybe she mentioned menopause, but like it was not a conversation that was being had. Like women weren't talking about it other than like, oh, I'm getting a hot flash or like. No, no.
Vanessa (15:38.239)
No.
Vanessa (15:49.006)
Well, I never heard the word perimenopause until like maybe the last year or two. Like I'd never heard that word. And even to take it a step back of like, yeah, I kind of heard it. Like for me, I didn't even want to think about that, right? Because if you, like I don't even want to think that that is even on the horizon, you know, that that's something that I'm going to go through. I know that was very like hard for me when friends were starting to like have that conversation like, and I'm like, yeah, I'm experiencing this. They're like, maybe that's perimenopause. And I was like,
Teri (15:50.99)
Never.
Lauren (15:51.995)
No.
Teri (16:01.008)
Yeah.
Lauren (16:01.68)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:18.9)
what? How dare you tell me that? And then going to the doctor and saying, hey, do you think that this is what that is? And being told there's no way that that's what this is. And me being like, OK. I guess, see, friend, you're wrong. So just not even being familiar with the term or wanting to even wanting to be familiar with it. So one of the questions I had asked is,
Wilhelmina (16:19.941)
How dare you!
Teri (16:22.554)
DARE YOU!
Wilhelmina (16:30.105)
right.
Lauren (16:32.858)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:44.726)
or I had said before, started as like, you have to be living under a rock to not know what perimenopause is. And then Wilhelmina was like, no, I know people who haven't. And I was like, guess if you don't want to know, right, you don't read the articles and watch the videos.
Lauren (16:48.943)
Right.
Lauren (16:52.517)
What? I do think it's the-
Teri (16:57.606)
Yeah.
Lauren (16:57.647)
I think it's the way the information is being disseminated as well. So you just said something Vanessa, and I think that's probably a lot of people's experience, is with all respect that is due, the doctors and the nurses still aren't necessarily the ones we're hearing this from. It's social media. And we've been hard on social media in multiple past episodes for dissemination of information. So this one's a tough one for me. And I wrote a
Teri (17:02.236)
you
Wilhelmina (17:10.735)
No. No.
Teri (17:11.248)
Yes.
Vanessa (17:18.69)
We have.
Teri (17:20.102)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (17:24.303)
bunch of stuff down when I was watching the Oprah special that recently aired that. Did you mention that, Vanessa, at the beginning? So the Oprah special that just aired, it would have been like last week, but it's going to be topical regardless, on Menopause. And she had Halle Berry and Naomi Watts and Dr. Mary Claire. And she's the one where we first started to hear it because people started to have her on podcasts. And then all of sudden, her social media.
Vanessa (17:29.676)
No, I didn't, but yeah.
Vanessa (17:41.358)
Very clear.
Lauren (17:50.027)
is what I first saw when I started to hear different things and then people you're following are reposting her things and celebrities are reposting, right? And so when I said I've been having a hard time with it because it's like, gosh, you know, we're so critical of social media for many psychology topics and how they disseminate information often incorrectly. And so are we looking at this with a critical enough eye?
Vanessa (17:50.488)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (17:51.587)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (17:51.771)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (18:16.001)
is this another person that's trying to influence us and it's not necessarily good information. so there is, and especially when you go to your doctor or you go to your nurse practitioner or OBGYN or whoever you're going to and they're going, no, no. But then you're hearing it in the zeitgeist. So it's an interesting kind of conundrum that I've been feeling because it's like, gosh, I'm so critical of social media in so many ways. And then this, it's like, am I going to take it hook, line and sinker?
Teri (18:19.452)
Any more?
Wilhelmina (18:28.911)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:42.872)
Yeah. I think if I...
Lauren (18:43.929)
I don't know, but that's why I think it's in the topics of conversation.
Vanessa (18:48.652)
And I agree with you. I think had I been someone who had not been experiencing any symptoms and had been listening to that, I probably would have been like, I don't know about this. But the fact that I personally have had for several years now things like frozen shoulder and other things that are being like, yes. And I remember when I went to the orthopedic surgeon for my shoulder.
Lauren (18:55.803)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:03.171)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That one's so interesting. Yeah.
Teri (19:08.422)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:12.197)
to.
Vanessa (19:12.718)
And he said, and again, at the time it didn't mean anything to me because I did not know the word perimenopause when I went to go see him. He was like, this is just something that happens to so many women and they're 40. I was like, okay.
Teri (19:22.231)
That's what I was told. That's what I was told.
Lauren (19:22.683)
Remember, we had this conversation when you both started experiencing it a couple years ago, when you both started experiencing it. Terry, you were the one that had been to the doctor, I think before Vanessa, and you said, the doctor said women, like this just happens to women.
Vanessa (19:29.005)
Yes.
Teri (19:29.467)
Yes.
Vanessa (19:34.492)
Yep.
Teri (19:36.752)
Women in their 40s, that's all I was told. And for both Vanessa and I to experience frozen shoulders in the same timeframe and both be told, it's just something that happens to women in their 40s. I took that at face value and thought, okay, and then I'm listening to Mel Robbins podcast. Yes, about a year ago, let me back up. The orthopedic guy I saw at Northwestern said to me, are you sure you weren't a softball pitcher?
Wilhelmina (19:39.279)
it.
Lauren (19:44.005)
amazing.
Vanessa (19:44.3)
Early 40s, yeah.
Lauren (19:51.547)
How bizarre. Because we're carrying the babies.
Teri (20:02.566)
Did you ever pitch for softball? I said, I'm pretty sure I was not a softball pitcher. And he said, well, you were on swim team in high school. I said yes in high school for like two years. Like this is not chronic use. And yes, like absolutely not. I haven't swam a lap and I couldn't even tell you when. And I remember list drive. I had, my frozen shoulder showed up about three years ago. So I am two years into this of going to PT.
Wilhelmina (20:02.854)
my god. I'm pretty sure I remember that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
Vanessa (20:05.646)
I should know.
Vanessa (20:12.782)
Yeah.
Lauren (20:15.067)
Fascinating.
Wilhelmina (20:15.397)
I wasn't Michael Phelps, like, come on!
Vanessa (20:16.928)
you
Teri (20:31.6)
getting cleared through scans, make sure there's nothing, you know, orthopedic going on. I'm listening to Mel Robbins' podcast with Dr. Mary Claire, and she mentions frozen shoulder. I could have, I was driving up to Wisconsin at the time with a friend. I could have pulled over and my head would almost exploded. I was like, my gosh, this, me listening to a podcast is the first time, all I've been told to date is it's women in their 40s. Well, what a coincidence. It happens to women in their 40s.
Lauren (20:52.923)
Yeah.
Vanessa (20:57.59)
Right.
Lauren (20:57.763)
Right?
Teri (21:00.214)
And I almost the whole zeitgeist of paramenopause reminds me a bit of where we're at with dyslexia. I think there's parallels. I think it's so pervasive. We definitely know somebody impacted, whether you realize it or not. And we are at the infancy of being a louder voice about it and spreading the word. And it's one of these things where.
Lauren (21:08.987)
totally.
Wilhelmina (21:17.541)
you
Teri (21:28.73)
We, it's around us, it's a part of our everyday lives, but we are not openly talking about it often or recognizing it or assimilating it into our everyday lives as people. Because like they said on, I watched that Factor on PBS, it is a universal female experience. It is something that whether you have, know, tile bearing is not a universal female experience, but menopause is, and it is one third of your life. One third.
Wilhelmina (21:39.92)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (21:47.119)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (21:47.758)
Yes, every woman. Right? Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (21:50.181)
Yep. Yeah.
Vanessa (21:56.642)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (21:57.17)
Mm-hmm. It's crazy. But you know, the other thing they said, and I know you're right, childbearing is not necessarily a universal experience, but the one thing that they did mention in the Oprah special, which is, think, so for somebody like me, who is at this point, well, I don't know, maybe I am experiencing symptoms, but I don't think I am. And so that's where I start to question. like, I don't know, I don't know. But then they're talking about dry eye. And I'm like, I've had dry eyes for a couple of years, but like, huh.
Teri (21:59.238)
That's a lot.
Lauren (22:25.787)
But they said, because you're going through so many other things in this stage of life. So they were talking about it with regard to the mental changes, the cognitive fog that people experience, mood changes, whether it's actual diagnosable depression or right. But like that, yes, that scattered, adult onset ADHD feeling. But then they were saying, but these are also women that are.
Wilhelmina (22:30.297)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Wilhelmina (22:40.613)
feeling scattered, yeah.
Teri (22:42.342)
Right. It's like an ADHD profile. Yeah.
Vanessa (22:44.76)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:44.891)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (22:48.154)
Yeah.
Lauren (22:51.487)
in careers that may be bustling at this point or really advanced at this point and they have kids. And they may be also caregiving for their adult parents, their aging parents. And it's like, well, maybe that is part of, so that parallel to dyslexia, so many people just kind of explain it away and go, they're gonna grow out of it. They're just new to school. Or right now what we keep hearing years and years later is COVID, it was COVID.
Vanessa (22:52.974)
Kids.
Wilhelmina (22:57.935)
Yeah, and maybe taking, yes, yes.
Vanessa (23:01.496)
parents.
Lauren (23:19.429)
He was in kindergarten during COVID. He was in first grade during COVID, if I hear that one more time. like, so they, find ways to explain it away, but then there's all this, there's, I shouldn't say all this research. There's now more research that's actually coming into play that starts to sort of marry this idea of like, okay, maybe it's not something that we should explain away or have to explain away.
Vanessa (23:23.446)
You
Teri (23:24.188)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (23:42.275)
I mean, when they start, when she's, you know, I was listening, now I can't remember if it was an Oprah's show or the podcast that we just listened to that Terry just shared with us. What's his name's podcast? Jack Shepard. So he interviewed Dr. Mary Claire. That's a really good podcast. think, I think she, I mean, she definitely talked more on the podcast than she did on Oprah's. Like, and I think she did a really nice job sharing that. But yeah, I think, you know, she talks about, you know, perimenopause and all these symptoms and, you know,
Teri (23:51.334)
Dax Shepard's. Yeah. Dr. Mary Claire. Yeah.
Lauren (23:51.481)
Dex Shepherd had...
Wilhelmina (23:52.069)
next show.
Lauren (23:55.78)
Yeah.
Lauren (23:59.973)
for sure.
Vanessa (24:09.696)
She says your body starts, it's the hormones, right? It all makes sense when she explains it. She does such a good job. And it makes sense that the hormones are changing. Your body, so many things in your body rely on these hormones. Like, of course you're going to be experiencing at some point, right? And that's, think, the thing, like Lauren said. Like, not all of us are gonna experience the same things. And we're not all gonna experience it at the same time. And so that makes it also kind of tricky about, you know, am I going through this now? Am I not? Do I need to go seek out, you
Lauren (24:13.274)
Yes.
Lauren (24:31.077)
Right.
Teri (24:33.21)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:33.563)
Right.
Right, right.
Vanessa (24:40.268)
some helpers, you know, see a doctor or whatever it is.
Wilhelmina (24:41.979)
Well, and the symptoms, there's so many symptoms that are possible that it feels like you look it up and you're like, well, who's not experiencing one of these, right? And so then it is hard to be like, well, how do I know what it is? And I guess I sort of feel like I've now talked, I mean, obviously we've talked a ton about it. I've talked about it with my patients. I've talked about it with moms around where I live.
Lauren (24:43.066)
Right.
Vanessa (24:45.496)
any.
Teri (24:45.948)
So many.
Vanessa (24:54.124)
Right. Yeah.
Teri (24:54.62)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:00.069)
Right.
Wilhelmina (25:11.587)
I sort of think you kind of know when something is off that is just like not just a typical thing. Cause that's how it was at least for me where I kind of spent the last year being like, I am not feeling okay. And I couldn't figure it out. And I was like, I feel depressed and I've never really run depressed. I've run anxious of anything. And my sleep, I've always had trouble sleeping, but I was like,
waking up at like two or three in the morning and could not get back to sleep and mine was always falling asleep. So I was like, what the heck is going on? I was, I could just get mad at everyone. My kids, was yelling at my kids, husband. It was just, I was like, something is not right. I could not figure it out. I started to think, okay, it's perimenopause. And this is where I actually thought I knew what it was. And I went to, one, I went to a psychiatrist and he was like, I'm gonna put you on this.
So he puts me on some sort of mood stuff and I was like, okay, but I think it might be actually perimenopause. That didn't seem to do anything. Then I went to my primary care physician. She was like, you know, we don't want to have to worry about the cancer stuff. And I was like, no, she's not even educated on what's going on. And she's like, I'm going to put you and she wanted to put me on a different medication. And I was like, this is ridiculous. None of them were helping. I was consistently still having all of the same symptoms. And finally I went to Midi Health.
which is we will put this on the website. I am so thankful. It is perimenopause and menopause specialists. are all, you know, either licensed nurse practitioners or doctors, and you could pretty much make an appointment within 24 to 48 hours. It's very easy. insurance, covers, it takes a lot of insurances. So it, and I did, I got an appointment, met with someone.
Teri (26:44.252)
It's an online, it's an online platform.
Wilhelmina (27:07.853)
She reviewed my symptoms and put me on a patch and put me on progesterone pills for night. It was like overnight, overnight. I was sleeping through the night again. My mood was, I felt like I was coming out of a hole that I had been in for the last year. And even like my mom, my husband, they had been like, wow, you seem like you're like without kind of separately, we're just like, you seem like you're doing okay.
better these days. They had noticed my mood just being all over the place. So it felt like such a relief. And I know my story is not the only one because my patients have shared the story because I have directed them to Midi Health. Actually, one of my patients directed me to Midi Health. And then I directed a couple of patients to Midi Health and they have come back to me and been like, that was it. I've gone to like 10 different doctors. So this is not like a, this is currently happening.
Lauren (28:02.821)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (28:07.237)
current doctors right now are still not knowing what's going on.
Lauren (28:07.375)
Yeah.
Teri (28:09.967)
Okay.
Lauren (28:10.939)
So I think Dr. Mary, why do we, her full name, it's like you can't call her Claire, Dr. Claire. Yeah, but she goes by Dr. Mary Claire, right? I think she said an average of six doctor visits before a diagnosis, which I mean, I know for me, I'd be done after two. I'd be like, well, okay, I just got to figure this out, right? Like it's got to be so frustrating for people.
Teri (28:14.924)
Mary Claire Haver, I think. Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (28:15.995)
Mary Clay Haver.
Vanessa (28:16.674)
Yes. Mary Claire, yeah.
Yes!
Teri (28:34.204)
And it was my PT. remember standing in the mirror at my physical therapist doing my shoulder exercises for my frozen shoulder, because one started first and then it was both of them. And now it's still both of them. And I remember her saying, well, maybe you should make some more doctors. She was very gentle about it, but also assertive. And she said, you are 43. She's about 10 years older than me, maybe seven years older than me. And she said, let's just look at the data. Let's look at your demographic.
Vanessa (28:34.254)
but then she also, I was just gonna.
Lauren (28:54.619)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (28:55.429)
Mmm.
Teri (29:03.302)
Let's be reality based. Like the odds are you might want to talk to your OB-GYN. PT, my physical therapist. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that dovetailed with me listening to some podcasts and then social media blasting. And of course, I'm sure my algorithm on social media is, you know, lots of pair of menopause, but I think Vanessa brings up a valid point.
Lauren (29:08.891)
But it's interesting because that's your PT, your physical therapist, who just happens to be a woman older than you, which is probably how you lucked out with that identification. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:13.627)
Yep. That's it. That's it.
Vanessa (29:16.8)
And yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:27.803)
you
Vanessa (29:28.248)
Yeah.
Lauren (29:29.627)
It's feeding you the...
Teri (29:33.52)
We're part of it too is just as a woman and a human having to assimilate the possibility that it could be that. And I at least, I won't speak for all of us, but I had my kids in my early and mid thirties. I was 33 and 35. And I think when you have kids in your early or mid thirties, you actually end up going straight, almost straight from
Lauren (29:38.299)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (29:42.542)
Yeah, it's hard.
Teri (30:00.528)
being out of the fog of newborns and toddlers and your kids are school age and you don't really have a respite and you're like, I can't be here yet. There should have been a longer period of time between when I was done childbearing because we're having kids later. Because in my mind, my mom had me and my sister at 22 and 27. She had a long period of time. So in my mind, it's like 10 or 15 years. You're done having kids and you get to be an adult for a little while and then you deal with menopause. And so I think there's,
Lauren (30:09.691)
We're having kids later.
Wilhelmina (30:26.213)
You
Teri (30:30.172)
that just facing reality of like, oh no, this is happening now. And I had a very short window of freedom for my body.
Lauren (30:39.011)
And maybe that's part of the reason that it is, to go back to Vanessa's original question of why is this such a hot topic, maybe that's part of it, is that there is such a confusion of, or sort of like a curiosity, which is being pinged in some of the researchers, these adult women that are doing the research, the doctors and researchers that are saying, wait, is the difference right now? And maybe it is that there's such a small period of time and it
Wilhelmina (30:43.832)
yeah.
Lauren (31:07.963)
has been so easily attributed to other things. And I think, obviously, the psychologist in me, and I'm sure you guys want to make sure that you're not attributing other symptoms to, not everything is perimenopause either. So if this is something, if you have a symptom that's plagued you since you were 20, and it's the same thing, and you've never dealt with it, it's probably that thing. It's probably not like, OK.
Vanessa (31:11.298)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (31:22.22)
Right, absolutely. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:23.173)
Right.
Teri (31:23.612)
Right. Right.
Vanessa (31:29.944)
That's not it. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:31.258)
Yes.
Lauren (31:33.889)
Now I have something else I can call it. And that's, think, where the social media piece worries me a little bit and the access to some of these things. It's like, you do want to make sure you're doing, you don't want to just put hormones in your body that you don't actually need. If you're attributing a bunch of symptoms that you've had for really long time and you think you're pressing an easy button by, OK, it's just this then. But there's also not a whole lot of clear answers for us.
Vanessa (31:37.73)
Yeah, agreed.
Lauren (32:01.291)
it's not as easy to diagnose as a blood test that would say yes or no.
Vanessa (32:05.772)
Right? Yeah.
Teri (32:06.566)
Well, and I will say we as women look to older family members for genetic concordance and how well do we track family history. And hopefully, sorry, mom, if I'm not saying too much, because I know you listen to some of these. My mom has typically said, I don't really think I went through it. Like I just everything was easy. But I will say, and I have said this part to you, mom, you had sleep challenges for many years that we thought were just sleep issues.
Lauren (32:12.891)
Hmm. Family history.
Lauren (32:20.635)
You
Wilhelmina (32:34.395)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Teri (32:36.316)
and very heavy menstrual cycles for a period of time years ago. And I think if you really went back, hindsight's 2020, that was, I said to my mom, go, think all of your sleep issues were paramentapause and menopause related. And my aunt on my dad's side was on the phone with her a couple of weeks ago and we happened to be talking about it. And she's in her late 50s now. And she said, I really don't think I went through much. mean, there was a period of time I had a lot of brain fog in what she described to you, word retrieval difficulties.
Wilhelmina (32:43.301)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (33:01.69)
Mm.
Lauren (33:04.587)
Teri (33:05.06)
And I'm like, yeah, and I bet if you really took a magnifying glass and went back in time, there was probably maybe more than that, that maybe you had a sensitive stomach or whatever, fill in the blank. But I do think women, the message for me has been like women in our family don't really go through it that badly or what it is, but I think they have gone through it.
Lauren (33:16.069)
Right.
Vanessa (33:25.166)
Well, I think it's because like you said earlier that like menopause, when you think of, when people thought of menopause, they thought hot flashes. Not every woman has that. So like maybe someone were like, why didn't have hot flashes? And I wasn't angry. So of course my menopause was easy, right? Like, I don't think we were knowledgeable enough to know all the things. You know, and going back to what you were saying, Lauren, about like being cautious, I think we are going to get to a point where we start to reel back some of these things. I think we're going to say like some of these things aren't. And one of the things that I was listening to in the Oprah Winfrey that made me like be very like,
Lauren (33:32.452)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:32.508)
Everyone.
Teri (33:38.235)
Right.
Lauren (33:38.852)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:42.171)
Yes.
Lauren (33:48.613)
for sure.
Vanessa (33:55.032)
So they were interviewing the woman who was talking about how she got a divorce. And so the divorce rate is high in women who are going through like the perimenopause menopause phase. And so she talked about, you know, her depression and being suicidal and, you know, I was listening to her story and I was like, you know, I could see how this could get turned around on a lot of women where now we're gonna put the blame of a bad relationship.
Wilhelmina (33:59.906)
Mm, yeah, yeah.
Lauren (34:00.026)
Lauren (34:22.479)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (34:24.474)
on you're going through perimenopause. Yeah, yeah. So like, but even in general, I just think like, you know, that people, men, could very easily, you know, say, this is all because of perimenopause, right? Like I'm not taking any kind of responsibility in our relationship because this is just you going through your hormone changes in your, know. So I am a little bit, you when I hear that kind of stuff, I'm like, let's be cautious about.
Lauren (34:26.843)
because that's how she phrased it. She herself phrased it that way. Yeah, I know.
Teri (34:29.232)
Mm-hmm
Teri (34:36.444)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (34:38.276)
or other women.
Yeah.
Vanessa (34:53.176)
how that message is being delivered because I think people can very easily turn that around on the woman who could be genuinely experiencing these things, right? But to blame her then for, know, that's well, this is all just your hormone, right? So that's kind of scary to me.
Teri (35:07.098)
Right. I communicate just fine. I contribute to the household just fine. You're just hormonal and your tolerance has changed. You used to not care. And both could be true.
Lauren (35:07.311)
right?
Wilhelmina (35:13.307)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (35:17.019)
Right. Right.
Vanessa (35:17.548)
Yeah, right, exactly. And they could both be true, right? So when I was listening to that, I was like, I could see where that could go in a really bad direction. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (35:18.107)
Well...
Lauren (35:23.749)
being careful to separate some of these stories and symptoms when appropriate.
Wilhelmina (35:28.411)
Well, and I think, I don't know which podcast it was. I don't know if it was the Mel Robbins one with Dr. Mary Claire or if it was the one, one of them talked about how men should be listening to this stuff too. If you have a woman, if your wife is in this, was it Dex? Okay. I felt like then she must've mentioned it before, cause it was a while ago too. So maybe that's a common thing. Yeah.
Lauren (35:45.925)
think it was Dax that said it. Yeah, because he was, yeah.
Vanessa (35:47.906)
Yeah, he did say that, yeah.
Vanessa (35:53.102)
I think she just kind of says that for her, like, yeah, that this should be not just a woman thing, yeah.
Wilhelmina (35:57.114)
Because she was like, we give our teenagers so much, they're just being teens. they're just being teens. And we don't ever think like something's wrong with them because they're being teens and they're being moody. And Dr. Mary Claire is like, that's literally what is happening to women for like 10 plus years in reverse. And so she's like, but then husbands then are like, what the heck? What happened to my wife? And she very much is like,
Lauren (36:04.922)
Yeah.
Teri (36:05.625)
Hmm.
Lauren (36:19.301)
Right.
Wilhelmina (36:25.467)
please be patient because if you're gonna be patient with your teenage kid, then be patient with your wife who is going through very similar hormonal fluctuations. And I like the way that she put that because we do look at teenagers and when my daughter's being moody, we're like, oh, okay, man, he's just being moody. But if I'm being moody, it could be like, oh, well, I mean, it's being a bitch right now. Well, maybe I am, but there's a reason. Yes, yes.
Lauren (36:39.065)
Yeah.
Teri (36:49.436)
But there's a reason, there's a reason.
Vanessa (36:50.939)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:52.665)
the associations that we place with it. Yeah.
Vanessa (36:56.142)
Well, and like what I was trying to say was that I know that women are experiencing this thing. What I don't want to happen is that then we turn around and say, this is just because you're doing that and there isn't any kind of responsibility taken on the other side, right? Because yeah, I absolutely think that, you know, men and women's lives should be, you know, understanding that this is happening if they are seeing like a change in their, you know, spouse or their partner or their significant other. But to refrain from not taking responsibility when responsibility should be taken, that there's other things going on in their relationship. That's not just.
Teri (37:04.924)
Mm.
Vanessa (37:26.318)
a wife who's experiencing, you know, perimenopausal symptoms.
Wilhelmina (37:29.915)
And I think that I wanna bring up what was mentioned in the Dax Shepard podcast. And this is a topic that I know I've been wanting to talk about for a while, which is they mentioned the book, All Four's by Miranda July, which Dr. Mary Claire said she read. And I loved what she had to say about it because this book has been just all over in for women our age.
Teri (37:43.004)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (37:59.308)
It's been hitting lots of bestseller lists and people are just talking about it. so Dr. Mary Claire read it and she was like, I didn't love the main character, which I don't think I did either. But she said, I read it because I'm like, why is this hitting women so hard? What is going on in this book that is resonating with so many women? Yes, you may not resonate with the story.
Teri (38:15.608)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:23.039)
You may not want to spend a month in a weird hotel and redecorate it and have an affair. That may not be your choice, but clearly something, these messages in this book, it's hitting women because they're talking about it. Same with the movie Baby Girl. They're talking about it. So whether you like the story or hate the story, what message is connecting with these women? And I think it is that when you hit this age,
Teri (38:45.02)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (38:51.651)
and you do start to realize, my gosh, I'm going through this. It does start to be like, instead of like, that's gonna happen later, it's happening now. And it's very much like, my gosh, the things that I wanna do, the person I wanna be, kind of people I, yes, and I have felt it more this year than I've ever felt before. And I think people do then start to look at,
Teri (39:11.568)
You're facing your mortality.
Vanessa (39:13.677)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:21.093)
their relationships, their marriages, and they may say like, this is not what I want for my like second half of my life, you know, and I think that is why people are like the why the divorce rate goes up and all of that. I don't even think it's because some of it's yes, the hormones and all that. But I think it's because women are like, wait, this is real. I'm going to get old and I'm going to die. And am I okay with this right now? And I think that yes, yes.
Teri (39:28.956)
Hmm?
Teri (39:47.228)
Am I okay with this marriage, this career, where my house, you know, fill in the blank?
Vanessa (39:48.046)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:51.792)
Yes. And Dr. Mary Claire said she went through that herself with like not her marriage necessarily, but she was like her career, like where she lived. She was like, this is when people mix it up because this is kind of, this is the time to do it. And you sort of get, yeah, Terri, you said it right. Get hit with your own mortality. And that is what's resonating.
Vanessa (40:13.868)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (40:13.98)
And I remember learning in graduate school at some point that women maintain flexibility through the lifespan, much more so than men do. So men tend to engage in the same hobbies at 55 as they did at 35.
Wilhelmina (40:31.035)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Lauren (40:31.253)
You mean cognitive flexibility? I'm like, where are you going with this?
Vanessa (40:32.558)
Hehehehehe
Teri (40:33.466)
Cognitive flexibility. And behavioral, and I'd say probably behavioral flexibility. you mean physical. Yes. I am so used to using the word flexibly interchangeably with cognitive flexibility that I don't think of physical flexibility. Thank you. That's a good clarification. women,
Lauren (40:39.579)
Can you still do the splits? I was like, what are you saying, Terry? I don't remember learning this.
Wilhelmina (40:40.856)
Yoga? Yoga?
Vanessa (40:47.252)
Thank you.
Wilhelmina (40:47.266)
You
Lauren (40:50.479)
I know.
Teri (40:59.846)
pick up new hobbies, form new friendships, change careers. Men typically don't change careers, almost never, or they'll change jobs. They don't change actual careers. They don't change hobbies. They don't change their social group very much. They're pretty stagnant through the lifespan, which that's a whole different conversation. I think that some people might like that, some people might not. I think that works for a lot of people, but women will change careers in their 40s, 50s, even 60s. They'll go back to school and get a different degree.
Wilhelmina (41:01.691)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (41:06.234)
Right?
Wilhelmina (41:06.427)
Yep.
Teri (41:28.348)
They'll join a garden club, they'll join a book club, they'll try new things, they'll try new recipes, they'll try new outfits sometimes, you know, so, or like a look or a hairstyle, whatever. And I wonder if some of that cognitive flexibility that women are more prone to and willing to engage in is somewhat driven by this process. Like I wanna change things up. And so what we have defined as cognitive flexibility might not
Wilhelmina (41:49.381)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (41:49.993)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I can see that. Yeah.
Lauren (41:50.425)
Hmm, that's interesting.
Wilhelmina (41:52.741)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (41:57.391)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (41:57.948)
be flexibility versus more, maybe it's more driven as opposed to, I think I'm going to try that. Yes, more purposeful as opposed to happenstance.
Lauren (42:03.909)
Purposeful. Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting. One of the other things I thought, I just related to graduate school when Dr. Mary Claire, but then other doctors on the Oprah special and since have discussed their lack of training in perimenopause and menopause. And I actually had had me thinking to psychology because she talked about, you know, one of the things, and Vanessa, you touched on this. One of the things she said was the brain likes to know what's coming. And when hormones begin to fluctuate,
Vanessa (42:23.158)
six hours. Yes.
Wilhelmina (42:23.161)
Yes, yes.
Teri (42:24.924)
There's two. There's two.
Wilhelmina (42:29.296)
Huh?
Lauren (42:38.275)
mental health, brain fog, and adult onset ADHD are the result. And that's our field. And I was thinking back and I was thinking to myself, we didn't get anything on psychology and aging. We got zero. And yet a lot of the symptoms that people may experience at this stage of life and during this are exactly consistent with what adolescents experience.
Vanessa (42:39.96)
here.
Wilhelmina (42:44.539)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (42:49.02)
Mm-mm.
Wilhelmina (42:49.069)
nothing.
Vanessa (42:49.806)
Zero. They got six hours, we got zero.
Teri (42:53.883)
zero.
Wilhelmina (43:03.323)
Yes.
Lauren (43:05.881)
And we see a lot of adolescents going through that that just kind of need a place to understand, this is what's happening for me, and this is all very normal. We didn't get any training on aging in adults and the psychology of that, or specifically perimenopause in women and menopause and what that looks like with regard to our mental acuity. So I thought that was interesting.
Teri (43:14.748)
None.
Teri (43:29.724)
That is such a valid point. And I had the exact same thought when I'd been listening to watching that documentary and listening to some of these podcasts and preparing for today's discussion. I thought, well, they get six hours. We got nothing. And there's so much cognitive capacity and mental health related concerns that present. yeah.
Lauren (43:31.405)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (43:40.633)
We got nothing.
Wilhelmina (43:42.767)
Nothing.
Lauren (43:51.215)
I think of during our training, all rotated and for a period of time saw adults, like for clinical therapy, we saw adults of varying ages. I had no idea what I was doing turns out. I mean, I think there's like an extent of that when we're all in kind of training and learning and new regardless. But when you think about like this specific population, I can think back to some of the people that I probably worked.
Wilhelmina (43:57.125)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (43:57.166)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (44:06.715)
you
Lauren (44:16.517)
with and we probably explained things away in very similar ways to what some general practitioners are doing to women with these symptoms now.
Wilhelmina (44:25.413)
Mm-hmm.
Well, and I think that what I'll say is if you're listening to this, know, Vanessa, you had said like, if this is something you've always dealt with, you know, that's different. But if you are a woman from 35 and above, because they said it can start as young as 35, and you have never been depressed, and you suddenly are struggling with depression without any sort of like nothing. Yes, nothing in your life has significantly changed.
Lauren (44:37.157)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:52.376)
Big change in your life,
Wilhelmina (44:56.473)
You suddenly have an uptick in anxiety that you can't seem to understand. Maybe you do feel like you're ADHD and you've never been that way before. You are having sleep issues that you've never had before. You're having strange body symptoms, frozen shoulder, dry eyes, and you've never had that. Yeah. You should probably think I am probably starting to go through this, whether you want to admit it or not.
Lauren (45:07.717)
sleep.
Vanessa (45:15.384)
Dry mouth.
Teri (45:16.23)
Dry mouth.
Lauren (45:16.805)
Yes.
Teri (45:25.724)
It's a possibility, certainly a possibility at a minimum.
Wilhelmina (45:26.051)
with it's a possibility and use that and move forward with that, not to have someone tell you you are or aren't, but to say, I think I might be, and then what do I do with it? Because I think if you go being like, what's going on with me and giving someone else, having someone else try to answer that, a lot of people aren't gonna have the answer. You almost have to have it.
Vanessa (45:47.16)
Yeah. And I think also, and I think knowing too that just because you're having these symptoms does not mean tomorrow you're going into menopause. And I think that is a big, that is like, I think for me, one of the things when people were like, maybe that's perimenopause, I know for me, I was like, my God, does this mean like that's coming? Like, well, yes, but it's not coming tomorrow, right? And you can be in this perimenopausal state for a long time. So, yes.
Wilhelmina (45:54.169)
That's right. That's right.
Lauren (45:54.714)
right.
Lauren (46:03.995)
Right.
Teri (46:10.01)
It's a marathon, not a sprint. And I really did like some of the data I've seen that your cognitive functioning returns almost to baseline once your period sees. that was encouraging. I thought, okay, because I think of all these women I interface with, especially a few women that I work with, clinically I share office space with who are in their seventies and they are sharp and they are great. And I value their contributions. just saw one on my lunch break on Friday and we were talking about a case.
Lauren (46:10.341)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:18.949)
Yes.
Lauren (46:19.363)
Yeah, that was encouraging. Yeah.
Lauren (46:33.551)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (46:39.802)
And was like, this is great. Will I still be practicing when I'm 75? I don't know. But if I am, I hope I'm as sharp as she is. then that, you know, it just, was very encouraging. And I think the data is encouraging that your cognitive function does return almost to baseline.
Wilhelmina (46:56.357)
will also add to that though, was it a doctor on the Oprah special who was talking about the increased rates of Alzheimer's in women? was it, no, was someone else though. Yes, that was it.
Lauren (47:08.773)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:09.3)
Maria Shriver. What's she doing? Well, because she has the Alzheimer's. They did, she was also talking about it because they, she runs that Alzheimer's thing.
Lauren (47:11.295)
Yes, well, they had a neurologist, she does, that they pointed to the neurologist in the crowd to talk about Maria's clinic or something. Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:18.958)
Okay, that was it.
Vanessa (47:21.678)
clinic with Alzheimer's treatment, yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:23.395)
And what they were saying was that they're researching that there's maybe a connection with what's happening in perimenopause, menopause in your brain, which might be contributing to higher rates of Alzheimer's. And they were sort of saying, this is why we want women to get on hormones sooner rather than later as a protective method, a way to protect your brain. And I thought that was really important information.
Vanessa (47:42.158)
protection.
Lauren (47:50.447)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:51.716)
because people are like, I'll just wait. I don't want to start now. And it's like, no, if you're having any symptoms, and they actually said maybe even before you start having symptoms, is to consider hormones to protect your brain down the line because of all of the things that can happen. Yes, yes. And I think that information needs to get out there more because who doesn't want to protect themselves against
Teri (48:08.41)
Same with your heart, your cardiovascular system.
Lauren (48:10.405)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (48:11.406)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (48:19.759)
Alzheimer's and heart issues. And if doing something like getting on hormones at the right time can be a way to protect your brain, your heart, why not do it? In addition to all the other benefits you can get from being on it.
Lauren (48:27.489)
Measure. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (48:34.683)
Yeah. And I will say, think we're kind of ending on positives. Somebody in that special said it's a blessing because it means you've lived long enough to go through it. And it's like, God, does that put everything into perspective? Because every
Vanessa (48:45.25)
Yes.
Teri (48:48.348)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (48:49.04)
I like the idea too of the she, the she, what was that? The she part? She-ess.
Lauren (48:51.897)
The Shia stuff. That was Halle Berry. Yeah. Yeah, but it's true. I mean, like we can all like either complain or struggle or not and recognize. I mean, some of these symptoms we're going to all recognize and it's not going to be that big of a deal. It might be a blip on the radar for some of us, but it also means we've all reached an age and stage that we are old enough to be experiencing that. I'm sure there are.
Wilhelmina (48:51.929)
shiesta, shiesta! i was like, that was hysterical! yes!
Lauren (49:18.285)
a lot of people that have women in their life that wish they had reached that stage. And so it is something really good to keep perspective on all of this. It doesn't have to be the worst thing in the world.
Teri (49:22.31)
Yes. Yeah.
Vanessa (49:30.892)
Right. Well, I think that's, yeah. Well, that was the point I think of the siesta is to celebrate that you've hit this milestone in your life. They also talk about like having your tribe, the people that you can go to and talk to. I know like in this friend group, we certainly do talk about this. And I have other friend groups where we've talked about like perimenopausal things and just having those friends and those connections to be able to say, hey,
Teri (49:31.618)
Aging, getting older is better than the alternative.
Lauren (49:34.169)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (49:38.716)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (49:41.743)
Yes.
Vanessa (49:53.846)
you know, this is what I'm experiencing, you know, well, this is what I did too, and this worked for me. Like Wilhelmina, when you were talking earlier, I was like, my God, she's talking about me. Like, all the things. Me too, me too, you know, like, yeah, yeah, so.
Lauren (49:54.906)
Yeah.
Lauren (50:02.295)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:06.651)
you
Teri (50:08.22)
My mom friends have a chat thread called Perry with Terry.
Wilhelmina (50:12.699)
That's fabulous.
Lauren (50:12.804)
NAH-HAH!
Teri (50:14.492)
And it's only because I, the frozen shoulder, and then I think I shared, I shared the Mel Robbins podcast, and some of them were asking, so I shared the Mel Robbins podcast and my one friend renamed it, Perry with Terry. And they're all like, we're here for it. Whatever you find out, whatever you know. And they do the same, they share resources. Exactly, exactly.
Vanessa (50:15.49)
Here, Barry.
Lauren (50:15.509)
You're their go-to.
Lauren (50:20.815)
You got on that train, yeah.
Lauren (50:28.123)
I love that.
Lauren (50:33.947)
send it our way. Well, good, send them this episode.
Vanessa (50:37.614)
Awesome.
Wilhelmina (50:39.013)
Well, think it was Naomi Watts that said, you know, pay attention to the five T's. Was that Naomi Watts? Yeah. you know, timeline, pay attention to the timeline. So when you start hitting that age, just start paying attention. Be tender with yourself. Teachers, educate yourself. Find people who, you know, get the questions answered. Tribe, like Vanessa said, like have your tribe, talk about it with your friends. Like don't just...
Lauren (50:44.921)
Mm-hmm. It's on her website, she said. Yeah.
Vanessa (50:46.659)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (51:08.709)
kind of suffer in silence, yeah. And then truth, which I also like talk about it. Like I've been doing that. Anyone who even, it comes up anywhere. Like I was at Orange Theory and was talking to someone and she was like, really? I don't know much about it. And I literally got her name and I sent her all of this information. And she was like, why isn't this just out there? And I'm like, well, I mean it is, but it's just now building, building steam. So, yeah.
Vanessa (51:09.518)
suffer in silence.
Teri (51:32.326)
This is how it gets out there that there's a progression of how you get from point A to point D in terms of disseminating information. And this is we're in the middle of it.
Vanessa (51:37.518)
Right. Information.
Wilhelmina (51:37.893)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (51:42.606)
Yeah, any last thoughts on today's topic? That was good chat, ladies. Thank you for joining us today on The Shrinkdown. Please join us next time.
Teri (51:46.756)
No? Yeah, thanks!
Lauren (51:47.951)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (51:48.377)
Yeah, that was fun.