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Episode 546: In this episode, we dive into a challenging and thought-provoking passage from the Bible—2 Samuel 24, which recounts the story of King David taking a census of Israel and the subsequent consequences of that action. The narrative begins with the anger of the Lord burning against Israel, leading David to take a census, which ultimately results in severe consequences for the people. We discuss the confusion surrounding why God would punish the entire nation for David's sin, especially when it seems that David's actions stemmed from pride.
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You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun, in practical ways. Hey, welcome back, everybody. We're back, and you're back together in the studio together. We're back. That's right. Yeah. So last week Kyle Doblamer did a great job, yes, but always happy to be back with the original Bible Guys. And I'm so happy about it. Yeah. I missed you. I missed you so much. I miss you. So I missed you. I was out of town and then you were out of town. Yes, and we missed each other. We did. I mean, in the last month, we haven't hardly crossed each other's path, like four or five times. Yeah. And then and then the other day you're like, hey, let's grab lunch. You're like, oh, no, I'm out of town exactly. Yeah, we're going to drive like six hours Chicago. Yeah. So, hey, we are back and we want to welcome you to The Bible Guys. We have a great episode planned for you, as always hopefully, And but before we get to the best. One we can put together today, that's right, that's right. Before we get to that, we have a social media minute. The desires put it together for us. So let's take a minute to shout out to some of our amazing listeners. Only the amazing ones today, not the amazing ones. All right, I'll read the first one. I guess. So this is by Logan c. He says, truly enjoy listening to every episode. Finally made it to the start. Can't wait to continue growing in my knowledge of the Bible. Also, can't wait to dig deeper and categorize what makes Chris mad? He's got a running chart. That's right, that's funny. He wants to categorize it. Yeah, the Bible is important, but what Chris mad? Right? Right? Right? Hey, you know what, that'd be kind of cool to have a chart of everything I've ever done. That funny, right, because then I would know how to make it better. What was it that John says the world cannot contain the books? That's right, that's right? Yeah, okay, that's number number two. Every mon morning, I rewatch an old heritage message. I'll follow up with the day's Bible guys episode, And today's was incredible. Thank you guys for everything that you do. And that's from Maddie Ry Maddie. Are that was that's actually super nice. Actually, I'm pretty blown away that that's what she does. Every morning. She watches an old heritage message. Now that's on the heritage church. Well, yeah, that's our. Church, which means she goes back and archives into our archives and watches a thirty five minute message every morning and then follows up with a twenty five minute podcast, Wow, or a twenty minute whatever it is. Wow, Maddie, that is. Maddy, thank you, some dedication. She's gonna be the winner today. Yeah, well winter is it a competition. It's always a competition. And then the. Third one says there's just icons. There's like like emojis. It says number three. He says Disney and then has a barfing emoji and it says day in the woods with two with hearts by a guy called back Road Doors. Remember when we were talking about, you know, our dream, our dream perfect day. Yeah, it's our favorite birthday or something like that. So that is hilarious. You wanted to go to Disney with your family and celebrity celebrity, and I wanted to be out in the woods. Yeah, well you know, I I love to be clear, I love seeing how happy Disney makes my family, so like my girls love it beyond you know, beyond reason, right, And by the way, I do love it. I actually enjoy like the Winnie the Pooh ride, and when we're in line, it's just like all kids. It's all kids. But we grew up watching this so much and we have such a love for art and the characters and everything else. Like I actually enjoy the art art piece of it. All the talking you're doing, that bar thing is still stuck there. You're convicting it, convincing anybody anything. Trying to justify the bar icon, and I'm just to go a veil. Hey, I think back Road Outdoors is my kind of people. That's all I'm saying for sure. Yeah, that's funny. And by the way, is back road Outdoors you're handled? Jeff, No, it's not, is it. I wish it was. That's a good one. You're the one that wrote in yeah, I love my own answers. That's right, all right, Well it was actually what we. Can have some shadow names and we just write stuff in. Oh, that'd be fun, right, I promise you that's not me, dear, I promise. You, Dear. Bible guys, Chris is the best. He's so handsome. That's so good. Okay. Hey, by the way, it's probably a good time to say that we love feedback absolutely, so please. If you're on YouTube, you can comment. Uh, if you're watching on any other the you know, spreaker or any one of the iTunes or anything like that. Uh, there's a way to eat what comment? Or no, yeah, you have to I think you have to have followed us and then after that listen to an episode and then after that you can leave comments. Okay, how it usually works like on iTunes and Spotify and. All those Okay, or you can just email us directly at info at the Bible Guys dot com and we will definitely appreciate any feedback and possibly even use it. Yes, so all right, well that was great. I hope that you guys are having a great morning. For most of you, if you're listening on time, real time, it's Monday morning, and we are going to dive right into a sort of a strange Well. When I walked in the studio, I didn't know what we were talking about today, because so for if you're new listening to the Bible guys, Chris and I just kind of approached this with the idea of two guys like showing up at a coffee shop or something and sitting down, opening the Bible and talking about what's on the page. That's right, So we don't look way ahead, we don't prepare on these things. Desiree. She kind of helps us work out the order. And so when I opened it up this morning, I was surprised. And I told you then, this passage, of all the passages in the Bible, this one is one of the more complex for me personally and a little bit frustrating to deal with today. And I think some of our listeners are going to come away with this may be tempted to think that their morality is better than God's morality. Yeah, well, heck that's a temptation. That's a heck of a setup right there. So maybe my opinions are better than God's opinions on this one. Which which, by the way, just to throw a sentence in there as well. It's not that we take a non preparation approach to our podcast. It is actually more closely related to like a Bible study in real time. Right, So if we were to get together in your living room and have a Bible study we would open the Bible together, we would read the passage and then and then ask the questions that we're trained to look for and ask and say, how does this apply to our lives? And what's the application and and and all these kinds of things. So it's a Bible study real time podcast. So we think that anybody can have a meaningful conversation about the Bible just looking at the words on the page, and especially if you have a good little study Bible, which we like to use the Life Application study Bible, there's always a few cross references and some ideas to give a perspective on it. And I think that you can have a meaningful conversation without having a Bible college degree. Although we both have pretty deep reservoirs, we've got a lot of time in the Bible and all those kinds of things. But what we didn't want to do is come in with a prepared outline three points, a poem and a tear jerking illustration, right right. We don't want that kind of We don't want to come and preach it. We want to come and just chit chat about it. And I think that you can have a meaningful discovery. And so whenever you're going to have that kind of a Bible study, there's a few questions that you just kind of build into your thought process. Usually you and I are looking for something what does this say about God in this passage? We're also thinking what does this passage say about people? And then we're looking at things like is there a sin to avoid? Is there a promise to claim? Is there an opportunity something that we're supposed to obey, a command that we should obey? Right, those kinds of things, And so what you're looking for is what to say about God? What does to say about people? What should we do with this? And that's what we're looking at with just the words that are on the page and maybe some light cross references based on some notes at the bottom of the page. And you can do the same thing. You can do that with your family. My mom and dad, when they became Christians were not deep Bible students. They didn't even know. But my dad had a little study Bible. My mom had a children's Bible story book and we would read a story together, and then my dad and my mom would try to help me and my brothers figure out, so what does this mean for us today, and man, I'm telling you it transformed our family's lives as we began to develop those skills over over days and weeks and years. And I think you can do the same thing in this That's why we do what we do here on the Bob guys. Yeah, So okay, that's great, so you can do it too. Here we go, Second Samuel, chapter twenty four. We'll just start in verse one and we're going to read through twenty five. This is once again. By the way, are you reading the Chronicles cross references or. I wasn't going to, But you can also pick it up in First Chronicles chapter twenty one, the same same passage. So if you're doing we can't highlight the difference between the two. Yeah, and if you're at home and you're studying, that's what you want to read as well. Yeah, yeah, you can read them both anyway. So it says once again, the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he caused David to harm them by taking a census. Go and count the people of Israel and Judah. The Lord told him so. The King said to Joe Ab and the commanders of the army, take a sensus of all the tribes of Israel, from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south, so I may know how many people there are. But Joeab replied to the king, May the Lord your God let you live to see a hundred times as many people as there are now. But why, my lord the King, do you want to do this? But the king insisted that they take the census. So joe Ab and the commanders of the army went out to count the people of Israel. First they crossed the Jordan and camped in a roar south of the town and the valley in the direction of God. Then they went on to Jaser, then to Gilead and the land of tadamahadshee. Is that what you say to Dad John, And that's what you'd say. Then they came to the fortress of Tire and all the towns of the high Bites and or the hip Bites, whatever, and the Canaanites. Finally they went to the south to Judah as far as Beersheba. Having gone through the entire land for nine months and twenty days, they returned to Jerusalem. Joe Ab reported the number to the king. There were eight hundred thousand capable warriors in Israel who could handle a sword, and five hundred thousand in Judah. Satan rose up. Oh, I'm sorry, And then it says, but after they had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him, and he said to the Lord, I've sinned greatly by taking the census. Please forgive my guilt, Lord for doing this foolish thing. The next morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet God who was David Seer. This was the message. Go and say to David. This is what the Lord says. I will give you three choices. Choose one of these punishments, and I will inflict it on you. So Gad came to David and asked him, will you choose three years of famine throughout your land, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three days of severe plague throughout your land. Think this over and decide answer. I should give the Lord who sent me. I'm in a desperate situation. David replied to Gad. But let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great. Do not let me fall into human hands. So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel that morning, and it lasted for three days, and the total of seventy thousand people died throughout the nation, from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. But as the angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented and said to the angel stop to the death angel, stop, that's enough. At that moment, the Angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Aruna the Jebusite. But David saw the angel. He said to the Lord, I am the one who has sinned and done wrong, But these people are as innocent as sheep. What have they done? Let your anger fall against me and my family. And so then that day Gad came to David and said to him, go up and build an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Aruna the Jebusite. So David went up to do what the Lord had commanded him, and went Aruna saw the king and his men coming toward him. He came and bowed before the king with his face to the ground. Why have you come, my lord? The King Runa asked, and David replied, I have come to buy your threshing floor and to build an altar to the Lord there so that he will stop the play. Take it, my Lord the King, and use it as you wish. Aruna said to David, here are oxen for the burnt offering, and you can use the threshing boards and the ox yokes for wood to build a fire on the altar. I will give it all to you, your majesty, and may the Lord your God accept your sacrifice. But the King replied to Aruna, I will no. I insist on buying it, for I will not present burnt offerings to the Lord, my God that have cost me nothing. So David painting fifty pieces of silver for the threshing floor in the oxen, and David built an altar there to the Lord and sacrifice burnt offerings and peace offerings. And the Lord answered his prayer for the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped. Okay, well, let's get right to it. Yep, let's get right to it. First verse, let me point it out, and then you could. No, no, you point out, and then you explained it. I know you were going to say, yep, yep. Okay. So here's the first verse. It says, once again the anger of the Lord burn against Israel, and caused David to harm them by taking a census, and then it's the Lord told him go and count the people of Israel and Judah. And then later on you know what, twenty verses later it actually or no, ten verses later, it says that the Lord was angered toward David for this sin and then gave him a punishment. And then on top of that, seventy thousand people who had nothing to do with David's decision died. That is quite possibly one of the most confusing passages of scripture, maybe ever, I know, right, Yeah, And so. So we talked about should we skip this one? Yeah, but we did, yeah, only because only because is there time to unpack it? Yeah? Well, and do we want to address it because I'm confused by it? Yeah? And so let's read a couple different you know, as we all know this, the Life Application and Study Bible was put together by hundreds of scholars, us smarter people than us, and they have notes here that were written that are pretty insightful at times. So let me start off with this. At least, why did seventy thousand people have to die for David's sin? Our society places great emphasis on the individual, but in ancient times, the family leaders, tribal leaders, and kings represented the people they led and were expected to share in the successes as well as the failures of the participants. David deserved punishment for his sin, but his death could have resulted in political chaos and invasion by enemy armies, leaving hundreds and thousands dead. Instead, Got graciously spared David's life, but he also put a stop to the plague so that most of the people of Jerusalem were spared. God made us work together independently. Yes, so whether we think it's fair or not, the group usually suffers because of the sins of the leaders. Similarly, our actions always affects the people, whether we want them to or not. We cannot fully know the mind of God or the severe judgment. We don't know where the prophets. Okay, then it goes on. So the bottom line is is, let's let's take care of that already. Let's take care of the whole like individual sin versus the group sin. This is very profound and I think it's difficult for Americans to think of because we're so individualistic. Right, Yes, and don't forget like God announced from day one, and made no apologies about them being His chosen people. Right and not chosen persons, right. And it's the group, the group was His chosen people. And it's been evidenced, you know, even from the start, where you know, it may not necessarily say all one million people rebelled against the Lord, but because collectively, as a group there was a there was a feeling of rebellion. It may not have been everybody, but you know, they were cursed to wander the wilderness for forty years and their whole generation were not to see the promised land. Why not because one percent of them sinned, but because as a group they did not believe or follow God. And so yeah, it's pretty clear in ancient times that they are called together to be separate. That's the reason why God gave David the assignment to take care of all the other groups of people who blasphemed God, rebelled against God, did not acknowledge God because of their group. Their group was supposed to be different. As a whole, they were supposed to believe together. And so if their leader sins, and by the way, that's no different than today. How many times do we see leaders of churches make really bad decisions and then unfortunately their sin is the ripple effect that causes the entire church to crumble. Yeah, government leaders the same thing, right, government leaders wicked government. You know, you and I've been all over the world. We've been in places where corruption from the top literally destroys the nations, right, and everybody's living in poverty. Everybody else is now living in corruption, everybody's shooting a deal. It just winds up, you know, ruining an entire country. And so leaders have a big impact. So if our listeners can understand that the Bible is telling a Middle Eastern story, right, not a Western story, right, then, and if you can understand that the huge majority of the planet thinks tribally, not individually, right, it's the whole group. Because you know, you and I have been like with the Pocat tribes or I'm going to be the Turkana tribe. Here just a few weeks in Kenya, if a couple of people make a mistake in the village, the whole village might die because they're always right on the edge of surviving because of famine, a lack of water, because of other villages and raiders coming in and trying to steal stuff. So if a couple people make a mistake, the whole village can die, and so the consequences are the group of people. So understand that you were not made to only be an individual. You were made to be a part of the family of God, part of your family, part of your community, and so we do have responsibilities to the community. So I was thinking about this. This thought crossed my mind while you were talking. The Bible doesn't say why God's anger stirred against them, right. It says once again the end of the Lord burned against Israel, But it didn't say why. Right, And we're left to speculate because it does not list it why right. However, the events that just happened rate before this are the rebellion of Absolom yep. And many of the people of Israel went along with Absolom on this one. But God had ordained David. Remember when David wouldn't even raise his hand against Saul. He just cut off a little piece of his garment two different times, right, And it was because he's like, it's not my job to raise my hand against the one that God anointed. Did and many people joined in with Absolom. Thousands of people joined in with Absolom, which means they also vicariously raised their hand against David, so that could be it. The other one was that they vanquished. They had some of their greatest battles against the Philistines, and David finally pretty much brings the Philistines to their knees right before this, So then God's mad at them. It's interesting because maybe it was a pride issue. It could have been, because it seems to be pride is what God judges David. David realizes the sin was I was prideful. Right, I wanted to collect to census and announce Look. At all my power. I've got one point two million fighting men right right, that's where or one point three million fighting men. I think that might be a so so here. God is not. I don't believe judging Israel for David's sin. God spares Israel for David's repentance. Yeah, but I think that God used David to escalate God's judgment, which, in a way, this is weird for people who don't think, only think individually. In a way, there's mercy in this because if you remember reading in the Judges, God would let them go forty years between issues. They would have a great rescue, an amazing encounter with God, and then for forty years they'd walk away from God. The whole group of people would start worshiping idols. Their pride would rise up. We did this for ourselves. We're taking care of ourselves, and they would eventually leave God worship idols, follow after the other nations, and then God would have to send in the enemies of the people of Israel to wipe them out and then send in another judge. But David was a man after God's heart, constantly chasing God. So this is a short sin and a very short leash. He has Israel on in this moment, yeah right, And so they get into we're gonna follow Absolom for a year. We're gonna think that we're really tough guys. And so if God's wanting to bring Israel on, i mean, judgment on all of Israel, he uses his king to do it. Yeah right. So it wasn't that God forced David to sin. God was using David to show the people what they have done, their pride rebelling against but he's also keeping them on a very short leash compared to the other forty years. Yeah, and because we're getting up there on time, let's let's let's hit the big one. So first, Chronicles twenty one one through six. It actually has a different account, and even though it's the exact same scripture, it's the same story, it has a different rewording. Here it says Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take a census of the people of Israel. So David said, the job and the leader, you know, Bubba, will take a sense to the people. And then and so that's really interesting because you know, the Bible is its own best commentary, and. So that's why I want to read both passages. Yes, that's right, and so and so it's like, well, wait a minute, if if Satan was the one that caused David to do it tempted or whatever, because after all, the Book of James also says God does not cause you to sin. A person sins when he is tempted and he has drawn away from with his own loss and desires, and then you know, sin brings forth death and everything else. So what the heck? Why would God be the one to cause David to sin, even though that's the way that it seems and for Samuel, and now you had written or you had come up with something about different wording where it. Yeah, well, so in some of the other word for word translations, it says that it was the anger of the Lord that made David mad, and he went and takes this the census. Right, it's kind of a prideful response to the fact that he So. It depends on how you translate that passage, but it certainly does see here seem here that Satan is the one who rises up against Israel. In the passage we read, it says that God God's anger stirred against David against Israel. Right, So God doesn't cause the sin, and God doesn't tempt, but God does use Satan's or allow Satan's work, which Satan does tempt. And so in this situation, I do believe that God took his hand off of David for a minute and let Satan tempt him. Yeah. Right, And then but God also gives a way out, as by the way Paul tells us that God always gives us a way of our sin. Joeb goes, David, we probably shouldn't do this, right at the time. This is David's most trusted advisor. Right, And in both passages it says that Joe goes, maybe, David, hey, you're doing great. Wow, are you ever a powerful king? Right? He butters hi out and says, maybe we shouldn't do this, And so God even gives it. David away out there. But then by the end you find David. He's repenting, and it's David's repentance that God chooses to use to stop this this judgment. And it's amazing to me because Aruna says, hey, I'll just give it to you, and David says, no, There's no sacrifice that has any value if it doesn't cost me something, right, And so there is something to that that when we are giving a gift, when we are making a sacrifice to God, it costs us something. Right, We're not gonna have cheap worship. Yeah, And that's that's the redeeming part of the scripture. Right. So the threshing floor is a part of the land where they would separate the wheat from the chaff, and and it was this really big area where they would just you know, sort of dragoxing around and and you know. Pitch hay and all these kinds of things. And so U and so yeah, David says, and that's a great passage of scripture. I've heard quoted throughout my life. I'm not gonna I'm not going to give an offering that doesn't cost me anything, because it's not a sacrifice unless. It costs you. Right, So something's free and you're going to give it to God. It's like, well, you know, that's that's not really a sacrifice. It's I guess it's an offering, but it's not a sacrifice. So so we we have to understand there's value in and seeing the lesson there. Uh so, you know, the more that it does cost us, the greater the sacrifice. Which is why Jesus said, I tell you the truth, the woman who dropped in the fraction of the penny gave more than the man who dropped in the big wad of money because he gave just a small. Portion of what he has and she gave everything that she has. Right. So, so here's what I still convinced, even though I don't understand this passage entirely, I'm convinced that God is always good, that's right, and he always does the right thing. Yes, and this this passage doesn't change my mind on that. No, and and and even though that it may be hard to understand, and it's translated, and keep in mind it's translated from you know, what is this Hebrew right to to English? Sometimes it could be lost in translation. Were we all we know that. Unfortunately, there are some translations that could have been interpreted better, you know, like the word love and all those kinds of things. So I do believe that God is the same yesterday, team forever. I believe that God cannot be inconsistent with himself. We know that God does not cause people to sin, and so the idea that you know that indicates that God was the one that caused the actual specific sin and then punished David because of the sin. I believe that the writer would have thought, hey, if God was the one that allowed Satan to tempt David, that ultimately it was God the one God, God is the one who allowed the sin. So they could have been written from that perspective of what. As well, right right, So, because the judgment was coming, right, and and what God did was escalate the fact that judgment's coming now instead of down the road, because their pride was heading in the same pattern that all their all, the other time their pride took over. Yeah yeah, well hey that is that is our best attempt to have a conversation about that passage. That was a tough one. Yeah yeah, it was so hey, we'll see you hopefully next time on the Bible guys. Hm hm h