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Tips, tricks, and advice on getting a sewn product idea into development and manufacture.
Heather Zager: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to today's podcast. My name is Heather Zager. I am the host of this podcast series and founder of Made Apparel Services. Our guest today is Jay Arbetman of The Sourcing District. He represents some of today's best suppliers such as KenDor, Sextet, Oriole Mills and Blue Desert Co, and even Made In USA Mills. He can also give us guidance on labels, hang tags and other findings such as elastics, interfacing and the list goes on. And he can add to that more here in a minute. But Jay, let's start off by having you tell us a little bit about who you are, how long you've been doing this, and how you got to where you are today.
Jay Arbetman: [00:00:39] Well, I was born into the business. That's the best way to put it. My dad and my uncles were coat manufacturers, actually, my grandfather was and they manufactured coats in Chicago and then in the western suburbs of Chicago and then in the western suburbs of Chicago and overseas. And the business was active from 1902 when my grandfather started it, until 1999, when my brother and I, who were the survivors of the business, put the key in the door. So I had a long career. I started working for them full-time in 1971, and so I had close to 30 years in the apparel manufacturing end of the business and actually worked for them as a teenager and, you know, picking orders on Saturdays or, you know, whatever I could do. And so I've been doing this for a long time. In the early 2000s, about 2003, a friend of mine in New York who was in the zipper and button business called me up and asked me to reach out to a local dress manufacturer who I knew, and I did, and I wrote an order, and a couple of weeks later, I got a check in the mail and I thought, wow, this is something I should explore.
Jay Arbetman: [00:02:02] And so over the years, I developed a business, at first kind of did it on the side, I was working for a jacket company and and then in about 2009, I started doing this full-time. Took me several years to kind of get going with it. But the last 11, 12 years I've done pretty well doing this.
Heather Zager: [00:02:22] Great.
Jay Arbetman: [00:02:22] And have had a really good group of suppliers. And I have a pretty substantial online presence, I do shows, I do some traveling, and I'm not an unknown commodity among independent designers. So that's how I got here. And I've been basically in and around the business, I'm 73, and I've been in and around the business since I was 14. So I'm moving in on 60 years. And it was part of our discussion at the dinner table sometimes. I remember knowing that really good coating wools came from Forstmann Mills when I was, you know, 14, 15 years old. And that I remember hearing one of my uncles say that a certain manufacturer had a 33 inch yardstick, which I always thought was really funny. And so I've been around this my whole life.
Heather Zager: [00:03:19] So how does somebody that isn't in the industry but, well, and we're speaking to my clients specifically because they are just new designers or people with a concept in mind and they just don't even know how to start. So a lot of times they think, well, I need material. So what are they putting into a Google search to find somebody like you? Like what are the key words would you recommend that they do? Does that make sense?
Jay Arbetman: [00:03:41] Yeah. So that's a good question. So if you put in wholesale fabric sourcing I believe I come up on the first page.
Heather Zager: [00:03:49] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:03:50] So not at the top. At the top is going to be Amazon.
Heather Zager: [00:03:53] Right. Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:03:54] Which will do you about as, not a great thing to buy from.
Heather Zager: [00:03:59] Yeah. Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:04:00] And then there are a lot of jobbers and people who, so you know my concept, and I think it's the right one, is that the fabric's got to have a United States FOB point. It has to be stocked in North America and it has to have continuity and real wholesale pricing. So if those things are, those things are not available, you know, then it's a problem. And continuity is really important because if someone's going to work with someone like you and they're going to buy, say, ten yards of rayon spandex jersey from Sextet, just as an example, you want to be able to know that you can come back and buy that. So you need 100 yards of that same fabric in three months and so you want continuity. That's very important. And without that you're kind of nowhere.
Heather Zager: [00:05:04] Right. And for our listeners tell us what FOB means.
Jay Arbetman: [00:05:08] Freight on board or free on board. So that means that that's the point, actually in a legal sense, that's when the title changes hands. So when you buy fabric from KenDor Textiles for example, and they ship it from Blaine, Washington, when they put that on the back of a Fedex truck, you own it, it belongs to you. So title transfers at that point. Now if Fedex were to lose your package, KenDor is going to help you restore yourself and so on.
Heather Zager: [00:05:47] Customer service.
Jay Arbetman: [00:05:48] But in fact that's your fabric that gets lost. And so that's what FOB means. And it's important today because if your factory is in Los Angeles and you buy fabric that gets shipped out of New York, there's a significant freight charge. In the last, you know, one of, a lot of things have changed in our post-pandemic world. And one of them is that freight has become much more expensive and much more of a consideration.
Heather Zager: [00:06:23] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:06:24] Some products, actually I have more than one vendor, I have an East Coast and a West Coast vendor of something similar. And I think that can be important. Poly cotton broadcloth or muslin or, you know, some basic product I actually can source out of a couple of different spots because freight is such an important factor in your purchase today.
Heather Zager: [00:06:54] Yeah. Hence being a Google search for a fabric wholesaler is that, and you have some reach in those different areas. You can just connect people to the right places depending on where they're located. Also considering that FOB and you said also made in the USA. And then what was the third point, oh continuity.
Jay Arbetman: [00:07:14] Made in the USA. It's not the made in the USA, it's that it has an FOB point. It ships in the USA. So if you see, so very popular vendor is Swatch On which is a group of vendors in South Korea. And so when you buy that ten yards from them and you get yourself $150 freight bill, that yeah, you might not be paying what you think you're paying.
Heather Zager: [00:07:42] Yeah. That's like no good anymore. Okay. So the FOB point in the USA and then continuity that would be the opposite of deadstock fabric, correct?
Jay Arbetman: [00:07:52] Yes. Now if you, now there are, I have deadstock opportunities.
Heather Zager: [00:07:58] Right. And there is, I do have a podcast a separate podcast, about deadstock fabric. Well it's mentioned on, it's okay to use and there's actually a movement towards that because all of this material would otherwise be going into a landfill. So yeah, deadstock fabric is just something that if you buy like from Joann's for example, and they're a great company in a place to start, for sure. But you just have to keep in mind that you may not find that material again. And so you may be needing to source it. And if you've fallen in love with that material for any reason, that's probably not a good way to start if you're going to eventually need hundreds and hundreds of yards. Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:08:35] You know, I have opinions about things, and I'm not telling you that it's the live-all end-all, though I think I have some experience and that has driven these opinions. If you want to work commercially, never walk into a retail store.
Heather Zager: [00:08:56] Exactly.
Jay Arbetman: [00:08:57] Period. I don't believe in it at all. First of all, you're going to end up buying fabric on a bolt as opposed to a roll in most cases. And a bolt can put a crease in the fabric.
Heather Zager: [00:09:16] Yes.
Jay Arbetman: [00:09:17] So in some fabrics that's easy to steam out and some fabrics it's not. If you buy fabrics on a bolt, the other bad thing that can happen is that for production, your cutting room does not want to deal with bolts. They want to deal with rolls. So they are going to either charge you extra to lay out bolted fabric, or they're not going to be interested in doing it at all.
Heather Zager: [00:09:46] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:09:47] Some fabrics tend to be, even in my world, tend to come on bolts and bolts ship cheaper. So there are times, for example, I just sold somebody ten yards of an organic cotton knit, and I asked the supplier to fold it to make it into a smaller package that will ship cheaper. So that's great. But you know that if you go back and you develop your product and you develop it and you start to go into, let's say, some small batch production, you're going to make 50 pieces of something great, then you can take it in on a roll.
Heather Zager: [00:10:31] Right. Right. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:10:32] Some things that I wouldn't have done five years ago, probably that little folding thing, I would have never told a vendor to do that. Now I aggressively pursue that because freight has become a much bigger factor.
Heather Zager: [00:10:47] Expensive. Okay. And that makes a lot of sense. That's great information. So a question I have is there's, you mentioned this earlier, jobbers. And I think there's other terms in the industry. What exactly is your title? What is it that you do? Are you a jobber? Are you a, I like to call you a sorcerer because you find materials like magic. So how do you call yourself? What is your title?
Jay Arbetman: [00:11:12] Well, I'm a sales agent.
Heather Zager: [00:11:13] A sales agent, okay. For fabrics.
Jay Arbetman: [00:11:15] I'm a sales agent. I work for about a dozen different companies that supply fabric, garment construction necessities, and sometimes something that would border on sewing supplies.
Heather Zager: [00:11:29] Yeah. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:11:30] Now, I do want to open up a topic because it's, you're kind of touching on it. So here's the different levels of, you know, how when you're talking about fabric, there are jobbers. What's a jobber? A jobber is someone that goes out and buys fabric that already exists. They may buy it from a distressed sale. They may buy it from a sample room. They may buy it from some kind of an overstock situation, some kind of distressed fabric.
Heather Zager: [00:12:02] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:12:02] And then they're going to resell it at a profit. Some jobbers are more expensive than actually buying from an actual wholesale. There are a couple of jobbers that are, you know, pretty good. And they kind of go up and down and, but they don't have continuity. And the ones that are honorable about it, which are some of them at least, will tell you you're going to buy this Italian wool and then we have 16 yards left and then we're done. So that's what we have. And so you, it's one and done. And it's where you're going to find deadstock, you can find dead stock also with someone like me. And so that can be useful. But I'm not a big fan. I don't represent any jobbers. Then you have importers and then you have importers with a dedicated inventory. So a really good example of that is Oriole Textiles. Oriole Textiles is a 100 year old supplier in New York. It's actually 96 years or something. And so they have satin fabrics for, just for an example. They have polyester satin and they have, with a huge color card. And they keep those colors in stock religiously.
Heather Zager: [00:13:24] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:13:25] And it's very rare that I put in an order with them that doesn't ship within a day. Once in a while they'll be out of something, it'll take a couple of weeks before it comes back in, but generally they have a very dedicated inventory. So when you look at at what they have, it's always available and they're terrific supplier. And others are like that, Blue Desert is a guy with a dedicated inventory. And then you have what's called a converter. So a good example of a converter would be Sextet, which is a domestic knitter. Or KenDor, which is an importer. So what, we use KenDor as an example, wo what they do is they go to a mill in China or Taiwan or Korea, wherever they're working. And they're making a 66% rayon from bamboo, 28% cotton, 6% spandex fabric. And they say, okay, can you make that in a French Terry for us at 280 GSM? Can you make it in a fleece for us? And what are the MRQs for each color? Okay. We have to buy 300m of a color. And so well here's ten colors, we'll give you these 3000m. And then they're going to sell it to you with a five yard minimum. And also offer a roll price also.
Jay Arbetman: [00:14:53] So a converter basically converts a mill's work into their fabrics in their colors with their finishes. It might have a brushed finish or it may be decaded, or it may be napped and sheared, or it may have a water repellency to it. So that's what a converter is. And then you have a mill that, and in this case, actually I only represent one mill.
Heather Zager: [00:15:23] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:15:24] And that's Tuscarora. That is a domestic weaver of which there are none. This guy is really an oddity and Tuscarora, so when you buy from them, they're actually the guys that are weaving the goods. They're actually the guys that are finishing the goods. And it gives you a lot of control and they're an interesting supplier. Where do you get the best deal? Could be in any of those places. You know, you just have to, having good market knowledge is not a bad thing.
Heather Zager: [00:15:56] Can you touch again on what an importer is for like KenDor, are they, they're not a converter? They're an importer.
Jay Arbetman: [00:16:02] No, KenDor is more of a converter. I mean, they're doing it overseas, but they're going to a mill and they're saying, okay, here's your fabric. Now, we would like you to give it an enzymatic wash and do it in these colors.
Heather Zager: [00:16:17] I see. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:16:19] And so they're ordering to their specifications.
Heather Zager: [00:16:23] Right. Okay. So if a converter is US-based are they then it's not an importer.
Jay Arbetman: [00:16:29] So Sextet is US-based. So they're a converter that is not an importer.
Heather Zager: [00:16:34] Right. Okay. So importer is an additional.
Jay Arbetman: [00:16:37] Some converters are importers. Many converters are importers.
Heather Zager: [00:16:40] Right. Right okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:16:41] Most converters are importers. But most importers are not converters. Right. So KenDor is kind of an exception to that rule. Ones like Oriole or Blue Desert Fabrics, they're buying, you know, off somebody's stock list in India or China or Korea or wherever. They're buying fabric that the mill is already making. And making it in the colors we're offering and that's what they're doing.
Heather Zager: [00:17:13] Yes. Okay. So if somebody wants only a made in the USA fabric then that's just Tuscarora.
Jay Arbetman: [00:17:21] Or Sextet.
Heather Zager: [00:17:22] Or Sextet. Okay okay. Yeah. So it's very limited. So our understanding of mills US-based is it's a limited--
Jay Arbetman: [00:17:31] -- limited isn't even the word for it.
Heather Zager: [00:17:33] Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:17:35] It, now, so I'll tell you what. Why don't I take you and your listeners into the time machine. I have a time machine here.
Heather Zager: [00:17:47] That's awesome. Let's go.
Jay Arbetman: [00:17:49] You can't see it.
Heather Zager: [00:17:51] I'm not as old as you, but I would like to look a little younger.
Jay Arbetman: [00:17:54] Right. So let's go back 40 years. So when you wanted, so let's say you were making dresses in Chicago, in the Chicago area. And there were a lot of dress companies 40 years ago in the Chicago area. So let's say you were a dress company and you wanted to buy fabric. You generally got on a plane and went to New York to do that. And you were going to look at different mills and converters that were represented, they had sales offices in New York. You could see everything in New York.
Heather Zager: [00:18:23] Yeah. Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:18:24] Today. Here's a crazy thing. I sell people in New York. I've had people in New York come to Oak Park, Illinois, to my house where I have my little setup here that you can see, and come, you know, come to see KenDor, which is not represented in New York. And only shows there twice a year.
Heather Zager: [00:18:45] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:18:47] So I would say that the biggest difference between like 40 years ago when you went to New York to buy everything and today, today I represent suppliers that are in Vancouver, in Florida, in Philadelphia, in New York, in Saint Louis. I mean there's, it's not a centralized business anymore.
Heather Zager: [00:19:12] Right? Okay. Okay. That does make more sense. Thank you for that. So shifting gears a little bit, I know you work with new designers, people that are just completely new to the materials realm. And I try to help them a little bit to understand some basics, like between a knit and a woven before sending them to you so they have somewhat of an idea of what they're looking for. But I'm sure you get like a common question or a common misunderstanding when working with new designers. Is there anything you'd like them to know in this podcast that would help them to get started? And you could, you know, they'd be just a little bit more educated before they came to you or gave you a call?
Jay Arbetman: [00:19:47] First and foremost. Your product development has to start with fabric. And the reason for that is that if you go to the store and you see lululemon's got it, or you see it in Macy's, take a look at where it was made. So it was made in China most likely. So that printed dress that you see in Macy's, made in China. You're, it's unlikely you can buy that fabric. So you're going to chase around and chase around and never find what you're looking at. And that's what I like to call ready, fire, aim.
Heather Zager: [00:20:30] Yeah. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:20:32] If you know that here are the prints that are available, then you can design around that, or these are the fabrics that are available. If without understanding what's available, because everything is not available, and because you have to be able to, you have to be able to buy 5 or 10 yards, work with someone like you to develop a fabric and then look for, you know, initially I would imagine small batch production, but no matter where you're making it and what you're doing, you've got to have the fabric side figured out. Because if you don't, you're, you know, oh, I saw this in Joann's. You're dead before you start. You have to work.
Heather Zager: [00:21:18] Right. Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:21:19] If you are working commercially, you have to work with a, you have to be able to buy wholesale from a wholesale vendor.
Heather Zager: [00:21:29] Mhm.
Jay Arbetman: [00:21:30] And so when someone comes to me, I wonder if I have one. Yeah. so somebody sent this to me. These fabrics that they're looking for.
Heather Zager: [00:21:46] Oh, swatches of an idea. Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:21:48] And the difference between what I have and what they're asking for is it's almost the same. But she was like, oh yeah, but this has 8% spandex and yours has six or something.
Heather Zager: [00:22:04] Ah. Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:22:06] And I would say the other thing is you have to be prepared to make samples. That is a part of the product development that is, you just can't get around it. And I know that good folks like you, who are making those samples, charge for that. And that's just an expense that it's part of the product development. So you want to find somebody you can buy 5 or 10 yards from if it's a really inexpensive fabric, maybe 25 or something, you know. And make some samples and see what it looks like. Sending me a fabric and then wanting it copied, not the best way to go about it. Now sometimes somebody will send me something and and it's useful but generally that's a tactic that, you know, probably three out of four times doesn't really work.
Heather Zager: [00:23:05] So I have, actually in my podcast, I actually recommended that if you have a material you're trying to source, I recommended finding something that is your vision, but using that as a guide--
Jay Arbetman: [00:23:19] -- not a bad thing--
Heather Zager: [00:23:20] -- the clients that I work with sometimes they don't even know what a woven versus a knit is. And so it's a good way of communicating. But also my clients aren't going to be picky about 6% versus an 8%. They just go, I don't know how to explain, but this is the stuff, you know, and you just, hopefully that'll get them started.
Jay Arbetman: [00:23:37] So here's another thing I want to point out that I think it's important for all startups and everybody else to know.
Heather Zager: [00:23:46] Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:23:46] And that is there's wovens are, you have to look at wovens and knits is really different things. They are different kinds of fabrics. So a woven fabric, first of all, you can buy an inexpensive woven fabric and still get a decent fabric.
Heather Zager: [00:24:05] Yes.
Jay Arbetman: [00:24:06] So there are cotton twills that are 350 a yard that are not bad at all.
Heather Zager: [00:24:13] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:24:13] There are cotton poplins and cotton broadcloth, you know, for shirting that are, you know, like $3 a yard that are just great. I mean, amazingly good. As good as the $12 stuff from Japan, no. But still make a very nice product.
Heather Zager: [00:24:32] A good start.
Jay Arbetman: [00:24:33] On knits it's a little bit different. You're very rarely going to find lower priced knit fabrics that are worth the trouble that they're going to cause you. Shrinkage. Torque. Pilling. A bad, just a bad general appearance. Inexpensive knits just don't work in my opinion.
Heather Zager: [00:24:56] Yeah. You know, I had a client that wanted to do her design with a linen-based material, and for starters, she had sourced linen bed sheets. And we were using that. And I thought, you know, no problem, and that's a woven, but as I was using it, I realized the quality was so poor that it just didn't sew correctly to represent the design. So we finished the samples, but we both decided, okay, we're going to have to get something that's a little bit better quality material, not just something intended for bed sheets, which it was clever and creative for her to think that and to do that at least just to get sewn samples for photography shoots. And they were just aprons, so it wasn't a fitted garment or anything. So it was fine under the circumstances. But yeah, it really gave me the point of you've got to have some good material going in and yeah, you can, you got to get it as close as possible and really consider your source literally.
Jay Arbetman: [00:25:48] You know, there's a lot of different ways to produce really great product. There really is. Uh, there's a woman in, that manufactures hoodies or sweatshirts out of recycled beach towels.
Heather Zager: [00:26:08] Oh, yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:26:08] There is somebody who does hand-bags out of old blue jeans. I mean, there's a lot of different approaches. But if you want to use, if you want to design something that you can replicate over and over again and work commercially with, I'm a really good guy to work with and I represent a lot of different companies and I don't get, I don't have everything, but I have most everything.
Heather Zager: [00:26:37] Yeah. And I was going to say that's a great point because I do get a lot of clients too that want to repurpose. And there is a big movement for that too, you know. Yeah. And the only problem with that is that if you do ever need to scale, super hard to do if you're taking beach towels, because your manufacturers are going to want all all of the fabric rolled up on a roll, and if you're using, you know, left over beach towels, that's just not, you know, so you're not going to, but there's tons of small businesses who do great with things like that. It's just you have to ask yourself, are you going to need or want to scale at some point? And then you do have to go into the more commercialized business model. For doing that.
Jay Arbetman: [00:27:20] So, you know, there's this kind of craft DIY movement, which is great.
Heather Zager: [00:27:27] Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:27:28] And people are doing cool stuff in that and there, and so there are people who come to me who are doing something in that area and now want to work commercially. And it's really, it's an interesting place to start and there's a lot of great creative things and, you know, so I remember working with somebody - oh this, you know, 12, 14 years ago - and she was just a dynamo. Great stuff. Her product looked amazing. She was amazing. And never got anywhere.
Heather Zager: [00:28:13] Oh, yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:28:13] And I can think of another customer. Started working with her 12, 14 years ago, I'm still working with her today, and I remember initially looking at her ideas and her product and thinking, no way, this is not going anywhere. And she's one of my most successful customers now.
Heather Zager: [00:28:31] Oh, that's so funny. It just depends.
Jay Arbetman: [00:28:34] You know, there are times when, you know, it's not predictable who's going to be successful and who's not.
Heather Zager: [00:28:42] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:28:43] I can tell you that working with fabrics out of a retail store.
Heather Zager: [00:28:48] Yeah, is the tough part.
Jay Arbetman: [00:28:50] Definitely. I think that almost never works.
Heather Zager: [00:28:52] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:28:52] Might work once, but that's it. Now, retail stores are great. You're making a dress or you're making a shirt for yourself or you're, you know, you're making a tote bag for family reunion or something. I mean, great, great. You're in the right place. But.
Heather Zager: [00:29:10] Right, right. Well, and I think this is interesting because you're making me realize, too, that I don't, I think they're a good place to start. But I'm also realizing they're a good place to start if you know nothing about fabrics, at least you can go there and touch and feel. Look at labels. You can start to get a little bit of an understanding of differences in the types of materials, but it is not the place to source. It's the place to just touch and feel.
Jay Arbetman: [00:29:33] But if you're going to a retail store.
Heather Zager: [00:29:37] Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:29:38] You're not going to see, well I should, I'm going to take this back. If you're going to a big box retail store.
Heather Zager: [00:29:46] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:29:47] You're not going to see the latest in hemp and organic cotton. You're not going to see the latest in lyocell. Or in modell.
Heather Zager: [00:29:56] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:29:57] You're going to see yesterday's papers.
Heather Zager: [00:30:00] And you're also not going to see anything other than like quilting material.
Jay Arbetman: [00:30:04] Well, you're going to see a lot of that.
Heather Zager: [00:30:05] I mean, you might see some other things, but yeah, you're going to get more of that than you are of like an apparel or a technical functional material.
Jay Arbetman: [00:30:14] There are independent retail stores that have cool selections, that I mean, I sell some. And that they're buying lyocell, organic cotton spandex jersey, they're buying hemp and organic cotton canvas, they're buying cool stuff.
Heather Zager: [00:30:32] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:30:33] But I'd say those are few and far between. Not zero. And there's some very good independent retailers out there who know what they're doing. But if you go to Joann's, when they buy distressed stock, they are, I believe this is correct, that they're not required to label them the way the labeling requirements are for me. So when I sell you a fabric, I have to be able to, you know, tell you exactly what's on the fabric and the people I work with, that's information that they supply.
Heather Zager: [00:31:10] Right.
Jay Arbetman: [00:31:10] If you go to Joann's, I believe that many times the precise content is not necessarily on the fabric.
Heather Zager: [00:31:21] Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I should note that I love Joann's, I love going there. They have all sorts of cool stuff. But for the materials sourcing specifics that we're talking about in this podcast, is just that's not the best place to start, especially when there's sorcerers like you, sales agents that can get you something that's more of the latest that's out there for a really good price. It's not more expensive to go through you.
Jay Arbetman: [00:31:47] No, it's actually less expensive.
Heather Zager: [00:31:47] Probably a little bit better guidance. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's a much better start anyway for that reason. So okay, that makes a lot more sense to me. And then I wanted to quickly ask, so a lot of my clients don't necessarily understand the process too, so I've explained to them that the first place is to start with swatches. So you help them to put together some swatches, things that you think will work, by understanding what it is that they're trying to create. Like is it a jacket? Is it a t shirt? Is it a hoodie? And then you can start speaking to some of the materials that would work well for that. Send them swatch cards that would include possibly different colors options. And then from there they're just buying 5 or 10 yards as a minimum to do their samples. And then when they're ready to buy a roll, they buy the roll. And it's as simple as that whole process. Or am I missing any steps in there?
Jay Arbetman: [00:32:36] No, you're not missing much. Now in the garment business, it's the Wild West. No two suppliers work exactly alike, and they don't ship from the same place. They don't have the same policies. So that's just something to be aware of. They're all independent businesses with a big emphasis on independence.
Heather Zager: [00:32:57] Yeah. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:32:59] So what you want to do is to get color cards in front of you. That's number one. And, you know, think of it like a pyramid. So when you're at the bottom of the pyramid and you're getting color cards you want to get quite a bit, you know. So let's say you're making a hoodie. Well, you could probably look at a dozen fabrics to make a hoodie out of, maybe more. And you want to get those cards in front of you before you start out. And then you're looking for 5 or 10 yards, you know, usually if you're working with someone like you, I'd imagine that you're going to say, you know, I need at least this amount of fabric. And probably better to buy a few yards more, but, you know, it's real money so you want to be careful. And that's really the way to go about that. And then you would call someone like me and say, okay, I'm ready to purchase five yards or ten yards and then you do that. And you do that all with a credit card when you're initially starting, and you're going to use a credit card for a while. So you have to have a credit card that's ready to go. Most suppliers are actually pretty generous and pretty understanding about the fact that you need to get color cards in front of you. If it's a domestic supplier, they'll send them to you at little or no cost. If it's out of the country, which includes Canada, then you're going to pay, at least pay the freight portion of that. So that can, and the US Mail doesn't really work very well from Canada anymore. So I mean it's like three weeks and sometimes the stuff gets lost. It's really been a problem. So you know, I would just recommend to you that that's 20 or $30 that's worth spending on getting color cards in front of you that are proper. Again, as you're looking at swatches and so on, don't be sucked into, yes and then we ship it from India or we ship it from South Korea. Don't do that. I know people do it, might work for some people, but I think that it is not, it's a disqualifier for me. That's all I can tell you.
Heather Zager: [00:35:33] Yeah. As as an emerging designer or a small designer, not a great place to to be shipping from. Yeah, it's expensive.
Jay Arbetman: [00:35:41] I think starting out with fabric that's readily available, has continuity and real wholesale pricing, and good quality, those are the things you want to make sure you cover.
Heather Zager: [00:35:52] Perfect. Okay, so on the color cards you're talking about, is that is a swatch, and then the color ways that it comes in, all on like one board, like an eight and a half by eleven. Yeah. So the question I had was what would limit the color ways available for a particular material? Is that just the mill's decision? Is that like, why can you get some fabrics in so many different color ways, but other ones you can get only three?
Jay Arbetman: [00:36:24] Usually that has to do with the popularity of the fabric.
Heather Zager: [00:36:28] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:36:29] So if you look at bamboo cotton spandex from KenDor, just an example, you're going to look at that many colors.
Heather Zager: [00:36:37] I was going to say. There's like 25 different colors on there.
Jay Arbetman: [00:36:40] More than 25 here, it's about 50.
Heather Zager: [00:36:42] Oh yeah. It's about 50. Okay. Yep, yep I see it.
Jay Arbetman: [00:36:45] Now you're going to look at variations on this fabric that are, not endless, but...
Heather Zager: [00:36:52] Could drive you crazy.
Jay Arbetman: [00:36:53] Now you can have other fabrics that are pretty popular. Kind of popular. Or emerging or whatever. And you might see a color card like this.
Heather Zager: [00:37:04] Yeah, there's like five on there, right?
Jay Arbetman: [00:37:06] Four
Heather Zager: [00:37:06] Yeah, yeah. Four. Even better.
Jay Arbetman: [00:37:09] And so, and then you'll see there's a fabric that I just got from Oriole Textile, they only run it in black.
Heather Zager: [00:37:17] Oh interesting.
Jay Arbetman: [00:37:18] It is a fabric that that's what people buy it in, black. And it sells into if somebody's making uniforms for concert musicians.
Heather Zager: [00:37:32] Right. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:37:33] They're using this one. This is one of the fabrics they're using.
Heather Zager: [00:37:36] Right. Okay. Specific use case.
Jay Arbetman: [00:37:39] I have clients that are in the business of making vestments for ministers and so on. They use some of that. So, you know, there's, sometimes something just comes in black or just comes in white because that's, so there are also fabrics that are what's called, PFP and PFD, which are prepared for print and prepared for dye, and PFGD, which is prepared for garment dye. Those generally only come in a natural or a white color.
Heather Zager: [00:38:11] Right. That makes sense.
Jay Arbetman: [00:38:13] Because you're going to print those. Or dye those or whatever.
Heather Zager: [00:38:15] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So if somebody has a very specific fabric that they're looking for like, I don't know, an Italian silk, how would you help them with that? Or can you? Or what do you recommend to them if it's something that, like, yeah they want they want to buy overseas and get the original version of it, I guess you could say.
Jay Arbetman: [00:38:34] I wish them very good luck. And tell them to make sure that they have a freight forwarder. That would be the best advice.
Heather Zager: [00:38:43] Oh, sure.
Jay Arbetman: [00:38:43] Because if you want to bring something in from Italy and you don't have a freight forwarder, oh my goodness.
Heather Zager: [00:38:48] What a mess.
Jay Arbetman: [00:38:48] It's gonna be a disaster.
Heather Zager: [00:38:50] So that's an excuse for a vacation. Do you travel there yourself, get coordinated?
Jay Arbetman: [00:38:55] And look, you know, I just, I think yes, you can buy, like, really fine Italian fabrics. Now, there are some that are stocked in the United States.
Heather Zager: [00:39:05] Yeah. Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:39:06] So yeah, I would, you know, I'd probably direct somebody toward, you know, somebody else in the industry other than me. Depends what they're looking for. If they're looking for menswear, there's a supplier in that area. And then tell them to get ready to really pay a lot for that. Though, you know, again, that can work out really well commercially. Listen, I have a customer and an acquaintance that does really designer stuff. Charges a lot of money for what she does. Sometimes she finds that through me, and I think she probably makes a little more money on some of those, but, you know, she also will buy very exclusive fabric, but she's selling something for 700, 800, $900, and she can afford to pay $50 a yard for something.
Heather Zager: [00:39:58] Right. So is there, are there international sales agents in what you do, then, and you know some of those contacts or what would, if somebody had the money and, you know, the resources, where what would be their first step outside of, you know, the freight forwarder and actually going to Italy?
Jay Arbetman: [00:40:15] Las Vegas might be a better stop. You know those, it's really hard. It's really hard to make money that way.
Heather Zager: [00:40:25] Yeah, yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:40:26] And there are Italian fabrics that are, you know, in New York, you know, that are in the New York area that are okay and that, you know, but that's a tough category to buy into. It's a really difficult category to buy into.
Heather Zager: [00:40:44] There are sales agents that do what you do, but outside of the US for other countries, too. So if you're, they're out there.
Jay Arbetman: [00:40:52] There are.
Heather Zager: [00:40:52] but it's not, it's not the best start for...
Jay Arbetman: [00:40:57] But that is almost different from what I do.
Jay Arbetman: [00:41:03] I mean it's very different from what I do. And your process is going to be a lot different because you're going to buy that $46 fabric, but then you're going to have this freight bill. And again, to go back to that freight, I think that was something that was a little more doable. So I knew a guy that was, he's retired, but he was in a button business in New York. And he could have the buttons made in China and then air shipped them over and had a viable wholesale business for many, many years, a very good wholesale business for many, many years. Now that, he's not in business anymore, but if he was it, I mean, you'd be paying three times as much because the air freight has gotten so much more expensive and significantly less reliable.
Heather Zager: [00:41:52] Right. So that actually brings me to my next question. I've had some clients that have asked me to, if they could get their logo custom woven into a material. They weren't necessarily particular about the material, they just wanted to integrate their logo into the weave.
Jay Arbetman: [00:42:12] I can do that. I can do that.
Heather Zager: [00:42:14] Yeah, that's... Okay
Jay Arbetman: [00:42:16] I can do that with Tuscarora, which is a domestic mill. They can do that. I mean, there's minimums involved and there's some design issues. But it can be done.
Heather Zager: [00:42:28] It's easier to do that than source in overseas.
Jay Arbetman: [00:42:31] But, oh yeah. But here's the other thing you can do. You can also use transfers. You can also emboss. You can also print. You can also embroider. There's many ways to create branding. So I sell to somebody who makes leggings and they print their logo on a two inch piece of elastic that they use as a waistband.
Heather Zager: [00:43:04] Right. Yep. There's, I think there's probably better ways to get your logo onto something rather than...
Jay Arbetman: [00:43:11] Well there are a lot of ways to do it.
Heather Zager: [00:43:13] Yeah.
Jay Arbetman: [00:43:13] And I think that's, you know, those are tools that I have and that, you know, that I share with people and it's, all those things can be done.
Heather Zager: [00:43:24] Yep. Okay. That's great to know. So the last question I have is does it cost anything to work with you?
Jay Arbetman: [00:43:29] No. Vendors pay me to sell their products. Now, that said, I've done consulting and I have a couple of clients where I do a little more for them and they pay me for that. You know, I look at their, I look at their samples and make comments and just things like that, but generally, look, I'm very generous with my time the first time I talked to somebody because I find usually it helps me down the road with somebody. Have them understand how this works.
Heather Zager: [00:44:07] Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I think that is it for today. How does somebody get ahold of you if they want to ask you some questions about materials or sourcing?
Jay Arbetman: [00:44:17] Sure. There's lots of ways.
Heather Zager: [00:44:19] Good.
Jay Arbetman: [00:44:20] You can go to my website, which is TheSourcingDistrict.com.
Heather Zager: [00:44:25] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:44:25] And you can use the contact forms that are there to reach out. You can also look around on that website, it's probably pretty interesting. There's also something else on my website. I think it's called News and Opinions, something like that, it's a blog and there's some stories in there that are interesting, fun to read. Some of it's like, I'll be in Minneapolis on this date, but there's other things in there, like showing your fabrics, showing your garments at trade shows, and, you know, a lot of useful things. You can also go to another of my websites which is InterfacingAndMuslin.com. And you can also reach out to me through that website. And again, look at what's there. You can call my phone.
Heather Zager: [00:45:10] Okay.
Jay Arbetman: [00:45:12] Yeah, that's (708) 386-8586. You can text me at (708) 351-7278, or you can email me at Jay, my first name, JAY@TheSourcingDistrict.com.
Heather Zager: [00:45:33] Perfect. And I'll have all this contact information in the show notes so that people can refer to that there too. So that's great. Okay, good. Anything else you'd like to add before we wrap things up?
Jay Arbetman: [00:45:45] No, I just would suggest to people that they, when you do your sourcing, make some calls, look around, be observant, be patient. If you reach out to someone like me, there's going to, sometimes there'll be quite a few choices in the area you're looking at. And you want to get samples on those. Just work hard. The harder you work at it, the better your results are going to be.
Heather Zager: [00:46:09] Yeah, yeah. And it's a process. It takes time.
Jay Arbetman: [00:46:11] It is.
Heather Zager: [00:46:11] You get some swatches. It may not be at all what you were expecting and you might have to kind of do it again.
Jay Arbetman: [00:46:16] It's not unusual for us to have to take a couple of runs at it.
Heather Zager: [00:46:19] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Perfect. Well, thank you for being with us today. I so appreciate your time and all your good information. And I'm sure my listeners probably have some additional questions we didn't answer here. And you guys can email me directly at Heather@MadeApparelServices.com. And I think that's it. Thank you so much Jay for being here.
Jay Arbetman: [00:46:39] Great to be here. Thanks, Heather.
Heather Zager: [00:46:41] Yeah you're welcome. We'll talk to you soon.
Heather Zager: [00:46:43] Thank you for listening to today's episode. We hope that you enjoyed it. If we didn't answer all of your questions, or you just have some comments or suggestions about future podcast episodes, please email me at Heather@MadeApparelServices.com.