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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
0:00
On today's episode authentic communication, mindfulness and much or are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life need to. So join me as I document the conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Game to read it as a life coach who left the tech career to travel the world by bicycle and discover his calling and coaching and authentic relating gave helps leaders align values with goals and facilitates trainings on authentic communication, mindfulness and psychedelics for transformation. A goal whisperer and mushroom nerd Gabe weaves neuroscience iki guy and a passion for foraging into his work empowering individuals and teams. Gabe, welcome to unban. Chris,
0:51
thanks for having me. It's been a long time coming. I think we started this conversation like, last year right now we're recording it is January. So very
1:00
great, we finally able to connect. So I'm looking forward to you sharing your origin story with everybody. Yeah,
1:08
I guess I'll do the origin story that is about this chapter of my life. But I'm not gonna go way back to like the roots in Philadelphia. But more about how did I get here? You know, how did I get to the place I am with that by you just read. And for me, it really started with that tech career with the this this life that I thought I was supposed to want. Ever since I was young, I thought you know, just be successful and work hard, and you'll get where you need to go. And I kind of had the blinders on for most of my 20s just sort of grinding it out. And realized in my late 20s just had this this experience of being deeply unhappy with my life and not really knowing why because I was checking all the boxes, you know, I had the six figure job and the off street parking and you know, washer dryer in unit in my condo. And I'm like, what's missing here? And they now call it spiritual inflammation, which is something that I do a lot of with my clients and identity work is finding out like, are you having this allergic reaction to your daily life? And are you really looking for the places that you're out of alignment with some deeper calling. And that was kind of the the beginning of the end, for me of that chapter of my life, I really kind of took everything apart, brick by brick, left the job left, the partner left the group of friends in the community, I dealt with California, and moved on to my bicycle. And I traveled for almost two years by myself, I rode my bike for about nine months of that like living outside and just kind of going around and really looking for a way to connect with that deeper calling and meaning. And so I didn't know what at the time. But that's kind of the classic archetype of the hero's journey, right? Like, boy leaves home fine soul, blah, blah, blah. It's like Eat Pray Love is correct. I didn't know that. At the time. I just knew something was wrong. I just knew that I needed to, to address it. Because if I said no to myself, again, I might not get the opportunity to ever say yes.
3:09
And so you, you were like Forrest Gump thing. Yeah,
3:13
yeah. And that was by design. Like, you know, I really, it was just I was just trying to, to change the way I felt about my day to day existence. And I knew that I knew that traveling by bike was something I had dreamed about since I was like in my early 20s. I love bicycles. It's one of my great passions. And the opportunity to see the world by bike is like, it's a different way of being. You're just in this perpetual intimacy with your surroundings, and you're really getting a chance to live in the moment in a way that are, you know, modern office culture and kind of hustle culture. It's like the antithesis of that you can't plan too far ahead, you have to just really respond to what's in front of you.
3:52
Right, I think that was one of the biggest pieces I took away from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Yeah, not sure. Not sure if you're familiar with the book, but great read for traveling the country and a motorcycle, which I'm assuming is pretty close to being on a bicycle, except you're putting in a little more effort on your on your bike. Yeah, but it sounds like taking in your surroundings actually being able to respond to what's around you because there's there's no walls. And it is a completely different way of seeing things. But I want to go into some of your coaching now. So you work with a lot of tech professionals, you got a background there. So you're able to relate to these people and help them see where some of these issues are. They're probably struggling with. What are some of those patterns you see in in their journeys towards more purposeful work?
4:46
Are you asking me in terms of the individual in terms of the organization?
4:51
I would say the individual
4:54
for now, I think one of the biggest things that I see later We struggle with particularly in tech, it's like, it's all moving so fast that people never really slow down to deeply understand their own process in a way, and they're taking on a lot of things that aren't theirs. So people are tending to take on values are ways of making meaning, or ways of doing business that, that don't really represent who they are, who that deeper like character quality is. And when you give people the space to slow down and figure that out, then they're actually more effective leaders. There's some research on this from the Stanford School of Business they talk about, I think 75% of their graduates say that self awareness is the number one quality that leaders lack. And when you're you lack self awareness, as a leader at any level, right, individually as a leader in your own life, or if you manage a team in a fortune 500 company, it doesn't matter. If you lack that individual awareness of like, what are your strengths? What are your triggers? What are the things that are important to you, and the way you make meaning in the world, if you don't slow down enough to build that foundation for yourself, and really weed out the parts that have been implanted from the world that you're in, then you're always going to kind of feel like an imposter, you're always going to be in that kind of defensive posture, you're always going to be looking over your shoulder a little bit. And that's a lot of the work I do is giving people that core identity back to themselves a little bit really taking the time to understand, like, who am I? What is all of this for? How does that align with the mission of the organization involved in? And if it doesn't, do I need to change it up? I think that's a that's a big foundational element of it.
6:40
Yeah, I agree entirely. Self awareness is last year was like, the year for me figuring out the self awareness stuff. I didn't take a bike trip or anything exciting. What are ya? I noticed, man, it's like, it was a struggle like it was it's a, it's a lot of work to figure out yourself. Right? And to just understand these parts of yourself that someone else could probably pretty easily call out. Yeah. Right. Because they they noticed it from outside. What are some of the things you're doing to help people actually become more self aware?
7:15
Well, you, you mentioned that you're doing this work yourself, right. So you know, how unglamorous and often humiliating it is. It's not a process that a lot of people say they want it, everybody's like, I want to be more authentic, I want to live more aligned. And then when they actually start doing it, they like business deeply. But yeah, a lot of times it does involve getting perspectives from others. So a 360 is a big part of it, right? If you have a chance for peers to share feedback with you in an anonymous, unbiased way, just getting that data at the outset is really helpful in an organizational context. Anyway, a lot of times that's part of the process will, will be will actually get some perspectives from the people around you like what do they think and where there's gaps between how you see yourself and how others see you. I also do a lot of work around really diving into the system of values that people have in their lives and like, do they have a sense of personal purpose and meaning, you know, did they have a clear, like statement like you had on your whiteboard? You have these goals? You mentioned on your whiteboard before we started in our call? Do you also have something that's like kind of the the meaning or the the for the sake of what in your life? I really liked that question from Richard Strozzi, heckler. He says, For the sake of what, you know, if I said like, what is Chris DuBois? For the sake of right? Would you have an answer to that? Would it be for your fabulous family? Would it be to make the world a better place? You know, would it be? What are these deeper parts of you? And what are they for? That's where we kind of start? And what parts of your identity are inherited from your culture? And what parts of your identity are you cultivating despite the pressure to be a certain way in your life? Are you playing any roles? And are the roles that you're being asked to play actually a proxy for a deeper sense of selfhood? Right? Where like, maybe you're just being asked to be the role of a father in the traditional mold of your family's father history. But that's not necessarily authentic to who you want to be as a dad. Right? And so as the role you're being asked to play aligned with who you really want to be, this type of questions are often hard to answer because you might find some important blank spaces or some places where you really are living out of alignment. And I mean, I've had clients up in their lives as a result of this like changing careers leaving a master's program getting a divorce, right, like really one one client even transition through gender identity and our work together, because they realized who they wanted to be was different than who they were represented in there, like previous history. So there's, there's a lot of stuff at the root here. And it can get it can get murky quick. Yeah.
9:59
This is Uh, yeah, so I don't know that I would have the ability to just pull out what, um, you know, the, for the sake of what that is for me. But it is crazy doing doing the work, you can start to see some of these things with her I'm sure you get to see now on like, on mats, right just like with everyone you're working with. And it probably becomes more clear how to kind of pull some of those, like insights and insights, like you're, you're giving people like little epiphanies, right, by asking the right questions, getting them to just think deeper about themselves and become more introspective. The are there some like daily practices, I guess, or things that you're kind of going through with your clients to help them just keep reinforcing the the ability to become, I guess, more introspective and work through those things?
10:47
Yeah, I don't know that there are universally applicable practices, because everybody's so different. There are a couple things that that everybody goes through, you know, the first is really looking at the process through the right lens. And that's seeing it as a process of excavation, not construction. A lot of people think that like leadership development or personal growth involves building all of these systems. And there is valid validity to that, right like the, the atomic habits, methodology, or the you know, 1%, better methodology, like all those things, they build up. But my process starts with kind of digging down and uncovering some of those core foundational elements first, and it's kind of a different direction of travel. But I think once you have that solid foundation, once you're really climbing the right mountain towards like an aligned goal, then all the other stuff, there's more momentum and wind in the sail there to keep you going towards those objectives and things that you want to build on top of that solid foundation of that sense of self, of that authentic self of that core self. And so I think that's something that I see a lot is people want to create new systems, they want to change habits or build stuff. And the first step is actually slowing down and excavating first. I think another another piece that that comes up a lot is catching ourselves. Like in that moment of self awareness, when we recognize that we've made a mistake, or we're out of alignment with a purpose, or we're, we're not honoring the commitment we made to ourselves. Instead of beating ourselves up and dragging ourselves, you know, over the coals for it. I just recognize it as an opportunity to interrupt the pattern. And you'll learn this in my meditation, like, if you notice my meditation practice, it's like, my focus is not on my breath. I'm thinking about my to do list. I used to punish myself for that. I'm a terrible meditator, oh, gosh, why can't I get my mind under control? Now I'm like, Oh, good, I caught my attention wandering again. Now I have a choice to bring it back. And it's the same thing with changing something for the better in your life, you're going to start to notice, especially at the beginning, all the ways that you're out of alignment, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And that's actually good. Because you're moving from zero to one moon moment, you're moving from ignorance to awareness of something that you want to change instead of just being on autopilot. And that's something that people don't, they don't necessarily think of that as growth. But that's what actual increased self awareness is. It's an awareness of all of the moments where we are out of alignment, even if it feels uncomfortable to notice. And it's really important to give ourselves grace in those moments, to say this is a positive thing. This is an element of improvement, not Oh, something else I get to punish myself for.
13:37
Right. Yeah, that has been a mindset shift for, for myself, over the last couple of months. Yeah, it is. Something I've been doing to just a moment of presence to like, just not to like, it gets hard to find 15 minutes every day, right to meditate and stuff. Unless you get it on the calendar, make sure you're doing it. But I can sit here for a second, take a sip of my coffee and just like be present in that moment and taking everything right around me. And if I'm doing that for that one quick moment. It starts making me do it more throughout the day, right the first time my kids hug me when I come in. And so it's like just taking that that second to be like, Okay, I'm here like this is good.
14:18
That's a I call that practice savoring. savoring. So you're just like you're taking a moment to like SIP that tea, you're taking a moment to just like, feel that hug, you're taking a moment to be fully present with what's happening. But when you add this layer of savoring, it's also an appreciation of what's happening. So it's not a neutral observation. It's an engagement with it at an emotional level that makes it a little bit stickier. And that's the practice that I do and that's the practice I encourage. Pentatonix is just like that moment to moment awareness and then what is there to save her about this? Like right now I'm really appreciating the light outside my window. It's gray. It's a snowy day, but there's this like calm blanket sitting over the mountains and it's really in regulating
15:01
things like that, I should. I love that reframing because even taking end of a workout, right, you're just you're panting, you're sweaty, everything hurts. But like, if you savor that moment, like it completely shifts, everything you just went through, like you now can have like a positive emotion and now even build up a positive habit because of that. Yeah. Yeah, I like that a difference. But let's, let's go into some of the, I guess the the, like, the self limiting stories that people are telling themselves, especially as like, you're probably working with a lot of leaders, right? Who are, they're trying to learn more about themselves, so they can show up better, and they can help more people and they can run their business better. They have the stories that they're telling themselves that are going to lead to impostor syndrome, or, or having them take on a persona that really isn't them. How do you can help them work to like, I guess, be more authentic to to their teams, in a way that's not going to completely kill their credibility, right? Maybe they had that persona of a certain leader. And, and they don't want to just do a complete one ad, and now have everybody be like, Okay, we have no idea what's happening with Bill. You know, they want to know, like, have some faith that things are going to keep moving forward, and that you're doing the right things like you're growing. But at the same time attacking those stories to make sure that you are actually growing and doing the things that will help everybody. That was a really long winded way to ask, what are you doing with with your clients that are running companies are running teams and like, helping them to actually become more authentic with themselves as they do it? Yeah,
16:37
I think implicit in the first way that you frame that was the idea that somehow being more authentic would mean you needed to change the script on who you are as a leader, or that it would change the way you do business. And I think that's a total myth. And if you are that type of leader, if you're the type of person who's like, absolutely one way at work, and absolutely somebody else, the rest of the time, I gotta warn you, that's not going to last forever. It's an unsustainable way to live your life. And I have a somewhat subversive belief that work life balance doesn't exist in one very important respect. And that's we shouldn't be balancing the person we are at work with the person we are in the rest of our life, there is no scale, there you are the same human being in every arena of your lives. And one of the most important things I do with people is help them realize the assets that they have, over here in the non work life are valuable to them in their work life, and vice versa. A lot of people kind of silo themselves out and say I'm a skilled manager or technician or engineer, but I'm not like that doesn't translate to, you know, my personal life in important ways. But I've had really powerful moments where people recognize that, you know, parenting a four year old is, like, helping them be an incredible listener for, you know, managing a team of, you know, new recruits, or hires and, and giving them permission to kind of channel the energy that they have in different areas of their lives to areas where they haven't put those skills into play brings people a lot of ease and confidence, because they're like, oh, yeah, I, I have to change the context, you know, I have to change, maybe the languaging around some of these processes. But fundamentally, the skill sets are transferable. And so I think that's a great way to unlock a lot of potential and authenticity. Here. I'm using air quotes, right? It's like, just be more of who you already are. Give yourself permission to show up with that magic that makes you Chris, to your friends, with your team, right? With the with the boundaries, and social norms that work still in place there. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right. And I think that that's something that when you give people creative license to explore that concept, then you get them thinking about a lot of ways they can bring more of themselves to their role in a way that doesn't cross professional boundaries in a way that doesn't need to be performative. It's just in a way that like, like, what is your your essence of your personality that you want to bring more of, and the skill that comes along with all the ways you're effective in your life? If you're really effective in one area, and you're not in another? Or you don't believe you are? I would invite you to question that and think about the ways you could actually pull some of that talent into that underutilized area.
19:25
I need you talking to more of the the leaders in the army that I worked with. Because it does become performative. For a lot of them, in some ways, you would see them in front of soldiers acting one way, but then as soon as they let their hair out, I guess or let their hair down, or whether they're completely different. It's like, oh, I can joke with you. Like, I feel like when we're super stressed in the office, that joke would have gone a long way. Right for helping everybody just kind of rally.
19:55
Yeah, mazing and everybody feels it right? You're not fooling anybody when they see you in that different mode. And, and people, there's this whole debate on like character versus competence. I don't actually think it's a debate, there's there's pretty solid research that shows this, that most people think that leadership is about competence. It's about skill and ability. But really engaging leadership is about character. It's about like, who you are as a person and how you show up, because character is what's going to get people to follow you, not your competence, because especially if you're leading with your competence, that means you need to be the most skilled person in the room in order to stay secure in your role. And if somebody on your team is really talented and good, you're going to resent their rise in the organization, you're not going to want to promote them, you're not going to even develop their talent, because it's a threat to your security as a leader. Whereas if you're leading from from character from like who you are, from those authentic resources that you have, nobody can threaten that, because it's unique to you. And if somebody's better at this thing, this particular skill than you are, God, bless, that's awesome, you have a rockstar in your team, now you can unleash their full talent and potential, maybe even get them further in their career, then you might be able to go with that specific skill on your own. It's a totally different mindset to leadership. And that's one of the things that ties people up when they they think they need to be this, you know, drill sergeant here, and then this person over here, they tend to lean too much into the competence side of leadership, because they don't feel like they have permission to bring the charismatic side. And they over rely on the things that make them good in that specific role.
21:35
Right. I think Mark Manson had a good a good quote, just differentiating character, with competence, where competence is very much like what what you're doing in front of people, like for people, instead of character being what you would be doing no matter what, right? But even when no one's watching, but with competence, people, you get paid, right? Like financially, like for competence with character, you're getting paid through, like love and appreciation, and these other things that are way more fulfilling inside. And so why wouldn't you want to lean into character more and get some of those things actually feel good about yourself? Obviously, competence on some level, so putting food on the table. But the character drive, I think it's something that a lot of people are are missing, that can go a long way and actually setting you up as a great leader. I mean, it's, it's the pivotal moment, like thing you need for a leader. And yeah, often neglected,
22:32
and it can get you paid. Like making them great. Because people want to work for and with people that they enjoy. And so if you're coming in, like all skill, all competence that you like, don't mesh with the team, they're not going to hire you. They're they're going to bring in somebody who they can train, they can upskill, who they actually like to work with. Because that's the like the the non transferable skill, like it gives a little rough PowerPoint, we can help him with that. Right? He's great with this other stuff that matters more to us. It's, it's not, it's not like you only get paid for, for your competence. Because that's right, a lot of times teams are going to train you on things that they need from you.
23:15
Right? No, actually, I just got assigned to a new team within the Army Reserve. And I was put in charge of a project. And I realized when I was sitting down with my new team, that they're all kind of reporting to me in a way. They're all better at their jobs. And I am like, every last one of them super smart. I'm just like, Man, this is gonna like it's gonna be a fun project to be able to, like, pull everything from these guys. But I was selected to do it, mainly because of the character, I think, probably some competence. I'm not completely incompetent. But less like, it's so much more obvious to me how I have all these experts in everything that they're doing. And I just get to work with them and kind of empower them. And it's way more fun.
24:02
And now your role has shifted from having the answers is what makes you valuable. Now you're valuable because of your ability to help them find the answers. It's your ability to ask the questions or bring the team together or find the ways that those different experts mesh into Voltron up into something greater than their parts. That's your new value to the team. And that's a that's a hard pivot for people to make, in a lot of cases, because they've been led to believe their whole lives that they're valuable for their ability to answer questions. It's how we grade students on tests, right? But when you're when you've reached the level of leadership that you're describing, it's no longer your job to have the answer to everything. It's your job to help inspire curiosity and resources of others to drive that conversation farther than you could.
24:52
Yeah, definitely. So I want to shift gears a bit before we start to wind down so I want to talk about hatched Use of psychedelics in coaching. And some of the practices that you're, you're kind of using there? Yeah,
25:06
well, this is a bit of a different arena than some of my corporate work. Although I can tell you, there's a lot of curiosity among high level leadership, senior business leaders, people you would not expect to have these conversations with, they come to me privately, or at the networking dinner after the workshop, and I get asked a lot about this stuff. So I do think it's important to come out of the psychedelic closet, as it were, and really kind of share that I'm doing this work, even though I just want to make it clear, it's not part of the stuff I do. Inside of most organizations and teams, this is stuff that happens, you know, with private citizens in retreats in places where it's legal, like Colorado, where I live, so we're very lucky to have that legal framework that supports access. And I think the the really powerful thing about psychedelics is that they can help us understand so much about ourselves that's happening outside of our rational mind. I'm very, like, right brained, you know, organized kind of driven by structure. And the parts of me that I can access the psychedelics are much more in that like, mysterious kind of Yin, like creative left brain space, thinking more with my heart and my gut than with my head, it's a phase change, it's this huge shift in perspective, to be able to travel from that executive functioning part of our minds to that deeper, emotional, intuitive part of our being, to really understand what's kind of going on. That's an incredible resource. And I don't know of any thing that works like, as quickly as psychedelics can. Now that doesn't translate to everybody, either. I, I like to say, I'm, I'm not a psychedelic evangelist, I'm an advocate. But I think that there's a lot of enthusiasm and the kind of froth in the space that needs to be tempered with some understanding of risk and some expectation setting that, like, met one of my mentors calls it The Dude, Where's My breakthrough syndrome? Or like, you know, you said, Dude, Where's My movie, but like, everybody seemed, you know, fantastic, fun guy, or read about this research about all these breakthrough treatments for depression, and everything, and psychedelics are not going to produce the same outcomes for everyone. And I work specifically in the area known as the betterment of well, people that's from the human potential Institute. And so I like working with people who already have a solid foundation in their lives, they're mentally healthy, that you're just seeking to understand their their kind of map their soul, for lack of a better word, to kind of understand who they are at a greater level, their place in the universe, their connection to the world around them. Those are the type of people I find, I have a lot of success with and supporting, not so much the people who are working to heal trauma or treat mental illness, with psychedelics, which, given my training and background isn't really something I'm qualified to do. But I work with a network of specialists who I can refer out to if somebody is kind of coming to me with those specific issues. I know plenty of people who can support them with those.
28:18
Awesome. All right, I want to hit you with three more questions. I'm actually really excited for you this first one, I think, well, we'll just get into what book do you think everyone should read?
28:32
Oh, I have two. The first one is called the book by Alan Watts. Alan Watts is one of my favorite philosophers is a book called The book on the taboo against knowing who you really are. That is a great book as a primer of spiritual and personal development. It's incredible. And the other one that I really love is called for 1000 weeks by Oliver Bergman, which the subtitle is time management for mortals. And it's billed as a time management book, but it's actually much more than that. It's it's a book about prioritization and giving your life meaning and finding ways to create the most value from your time and spoiler alert. 4000 weeks is how long you live, if you're lucky enough to be like 82 years old or something. So that doesn't Yeah, I know that look on your face. Yeah, that same thing happened to that book didn't close. Yeah, exactly. But it's, it's really, really helpful for putting a lot of the the tools is that you get through that coaching process where you're talking about purpose and identity. That book helps you crystallize it into action. You're like, alright, what am I going to do with this now?
29:41
Awesome. And that's why I was excited for the to ask you that question. Because I think you would have a different perspective than a lot of people that I asked and so that you met the expectations. Awesome. Yes. So what's next for you professionally?
29:59
I really want to do more? Speaking and workshops and leading events, I've been doing a lot of one on one coaching for many years now and I, I love the energy of a group process. I have a personal goal to give a TEDx talk within a year. So we'll see Gabe is listening to this and that objection. But yeah, I really want to focus on more retreats, more trainings, more of those big group processes, because there's, there's an energy emerges when people are learning and experiencing something together as a group that's really special in unique. And of course, there's a version of it in the one on one, but when people are kind of collectively engaging with an idea, it's really, really powerful. And I, I want to do more.
30:48
Awesome. And finally, where can people find you?
30:51
They can connect with me on LinkedIn. That's just my name, Gabrielle de Rita. D, RI TA. I also use Instagram. Occasionally I go by fun game, Fu, N, N, G, A, B E, I post a lot about mushrooms and foraging and riding bikes there. And people can find me on my website. Effective connection.com is my website. It's effective connection.com. And there's a link there. If anybody wants to just chat with me. I love meeting new people and sharing ideas. There's a link there that anybody can just book a chunk of my time whenever they want to connect for any reason. No strings attached.
31:28
Yeah, awesome. We'll get those in the shownotes gave. It was great conversation. Thanks for joining.
31:34
Yeah, thanks, my friend. I appreciated your time and enthusiasm and getting me on the show. I know it was a bit of a juggling act.
31:43
And we made it work. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership visit leading for effect.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai