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The Effective Lawyer teaches ambitious trial lawyers how to grow their skills and create a prosperous law firm. Using lessons learned by accomplished attorneys from around the country, we discuss lessons learned through their trials and tribulations. Our discussions cover a vast range of topics sought out by attorneys looking for advice, from depositions to how to market your law firm.
The show is hosted by Jack Zinda, Founder and Senior Trial Lawyer at Zinda Law Group. In less than 15 years, Jack and his team have grown Zinda Law Group from 3 attorneys to over 30, spanning several states and handling a variety of personal injury cases from gas explosions to truck accidents.
Jack and his guests share their knowledge and skills that they’ve acquired through the process of building one of the most successful plaintiff’s law firms in the country.
In each show we cover a new topic that an ambitious attorney would want to better understand, while providing practical skills to improve their legal practice.
For more information, visit https://www.zdfirm.com/the-effective-lawyer
00:00
Jack Zinda
Foreign welcome to the Effective Lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda and I'll be your host. Hey, everyone. Today we're going to try something a little different. We're going to take some questions that my team has gotten from either attorneys in the firm, people that have come to some of our events, questions we've got online, and I have not read these ahead of time. So we're going to see how well I do in trying to wing this and hopefully you get some value and use out of these. All right, so the first question we have is, I've hit a plateau with my firm's growth. What strategies do you recommend to scale beyond the seven figure mark?
00:52
Jack Zinda
Well, the first thing I would say is I think the seven figure mark is an artificial target that people set based on it being a million dollars. Right. So, you know, six figures is a number in the hundreds of thousands. Seven figures is millions and eight figures is tens of millions. And to me, that's a little bit of the missing the boat on what you should actually be aiming for. Right? You want to try to scale your law firm to get to both your financial goals and what your goals are as an organization. What you're trying to achieve in your own personal career. And revenue is just the top line number that can help you get there. So the first thing I would say is figure out what number you're actually trying to get to.
01:32
Jack Zinda
Now, let's assume you're trying to get to $10 million in revenue or fees, and you want to get to a 20% profit margin. Okay? So you first have to build out what is the organization that you're going to need when you get to that level. How many lawyers are going to need how many paralegals, how many legal assistants? Okay, so let's assume that if you want to get to $10 million in revenue, you're going to need at least 10 lawyers that each generate $1 million in revenue apiece. Okay? So, so the first thing I know is I need 10 lawyers, right? Then I might need one paralegal for each of those. Okay, that's 10 paralegals. Now who's going to manage these attorneys then?
02:11
Jack Zinda
I'd say I'm probably going to need one supervising lawyer for every five attorneys I have and decide do I want that person to be a manager solely or be an attorney. And so as you see, this is the practice you want to go first through first. I got this book from this idea, from a great book Called the E Myth by Michael Gerber. And it's kind of a classic business book. It's an easy read. And what it tells you is you want to set up your organizational chart when you get to your ideal size. So that's what I did when I was just myself and two other people. I had this crazy org chart that had like 200 people in it.
02:48
Jack Zinda
And I was gonna get all to, you know, to all of it in like three years, which obviously did not happen, but it gave me a framework. And, and then you fill in the names of the people that are currently sitting in those seats. So you might have yourself in marketing or hr. And then as you grow, you decide who's going to fit in those spots as you scale up. So, you know, step one is figure out what you want to do at the end of the day. Like what is your goal and why are you trying to get to that seven figure number or eight figure number and break through there. Then what sort of team are you going to need to get there?
03:21
Jack Zinda
And then third, you need to figure out, where am I going to get my cases to make this happen? And there's two main things you want to look at. What are the case types I'm going to look at and what is the value of each case that I'm going to bring in the door? And then I guess three things. How long does it take to resolve that case? Because you have to figure out where the money's going to come from and you did something to get to the seven figure mark and you want to figure out, okay, what did I do to get here? How many cases did I need? How many people did I need? How many now if I want to go to the next level, how do I scale that up?
03:51
Jack Zinda
A mistake a lot of people make is they underestimate the importance of having a good management system in place so you can train, mentor, manage and grow your team. And I can tell you, I have so many scars from not considering how important that is. And you have to remember, if you started the firm, no one else is going to be like you. It's your baby. You're the one that's going to put in all the hours and time. So you have to be realistic about the team and how many people can handle what responsibilities. And then next you have to figure out what sort of cash do I need to achieve those things. So we talked about first organizational chart for where I want to go. If you're not sure, go talk and look at what other law firms are doing.
04:31
Jack Zinda
There's a lot of different ways to grow a firm. And I have a bunch of examples of sample. Org charts, if anyone's curious, and I'm happy to share those with y'. All. But there's literally dozens of ways you can scale a law firm. Some firms can get to eight figures with three lawyers. Some law firms can get to eight figures with one lawyer. And that's where your average value for case comes in and how many cases you need. So you have your organizational chart, how many cases you need, how long they're going to take to resolve, and then you have to figure out where those cases are going to come from. And that's your marketing plan. You don't have to have all the answers at once.
05:06
Jack Zinda
So you have your goal at the end and then you want to work your way backwards to what about I need to get there and just take it one step at a time and come up with a quarterly plan. All right, next question. How do I build a culture where the team is as invested in the firm success as I am? Well, I hate to tell you that's impossible. No one is going to be as invested in the firm success as you are. And that's because your literal financial, your family, everything is on the stake. If you're the owner of the law firm now, you can get people very close to where you're at. Okay, but the fear of literally, you know, when I started my firm, if I didn't succeed, I would lose my house.
05:45
Jack Zinda
You know, it wasn't just losing a job and there was a lot of people depending on me. So have realistic expectations. You can't get people to that level of where you're at as the founder, and that's not realistic. But what you can do is get them to love the company and love the law firm as much as they could love anything that they're. They're pursuing. And I think that starts with, first, you've got to have core values. What is it about your place that makes you special? You know, our core values are one, we all take out the trash. Two, excellence always, which represents how we do our legal work. Three, we make data driven decisions.
06:21
Jack Zinda
And four, we're going to outwork our opponents so that core values are critical to an indication to people that you want to hire and people you want to keep. About the what are they going to like about being part of your organization and what makes it special? You also want to have a core purpose. What is it beyond money that you're trying to do Ours is justice for all life changing results and that represents what our North Star is. So why is that important? You've got to attract the right people. Some people may just be motivated financially and that's nothing wrong with that. That is perfect for some organizations. Some people may not want to take out the trash.
06:58
Jack Zinda
We did that intentionally because you know, lawyers tend to have big egos and we wanted people that was going to treat our entire team with dignity and respect and really understand that everyone's a part of the company and part of the culture. So the first thing is understanding what your culture is supposed to be and what the core values and hiring, firing and vetting for those. Okay. The next is you want to make sure that everybody in the job they're in, they GWC it and all these things I've taken from our books and other places. So I apologize, I can't remember exactly where I got this idea from but GWC stands for get it want it Capable.
07:34
Jack Zinda
So the first thing is under get it, you know, do they know what's expected of them in their role and do they know how to do it well and have they been trained properly? The second which comes to is do they want to do the work? Do they not just like the idea but you know, if their job is to get medical records, do they enjoy that type of work? Do they enjoy getting up to work every day and doing that? And the third is, are they capable, can they do the job well? And that could be both time, investment, their skills they have. And that's critical because if someone doesn't get it want it incapable, they're never going to have fun. Nobody enjoys playing a game that they either don't want to don't know how to do or unable to do.
08:16
Jack Zinda
And it doesn't mean you have to fire that person if they don't get it. When are capable you have to make sure that you figure out where do they belong in the company if not there where they can do that. And one thing that I've learned the hard way is, you know, one A player is worth two B players and one C player is worth minus two A's. And what do I mean by that? You know, you find yourself talking about the C players over and over again and they drain down your entire team because then the A's are picking up the slack for the C's and that gets old really fast. And also all of the leadership team's attention is focused on fixing the C's versus trying to help The A's grow and get better.
08:56
Jack Zinda
It's kind of like if the Bulls, you know, when they're winning championships back with Jordan, were focusing on the worst player on the team, who had the worst attitude versus how do they get, you know, Jordan and Pippen and Rodman to perform at the level they can. The next thing you have to do is you've got to communicate. And this again is for myself personally, been a total work in progress because I'm an impact personality. I like to just get out there and do things and I don't always communicate it the way that I need to. So what we do is we want to communicate our values, our purpose on a regular basis. We do that through daily huddles, weekly team meetings and all hand meetings.
09:35
Jack Zinda
And as a leader, you're going to be kind of annoyed that you have to repeat these things over and over again. But the team gets a lot out of it and you have to just hammer it into all of your messages over and over. And then you have to listen, you really have to listen to your team members. You know, what are they going through, what are their struggles? Again, this is something that doesn't come naturally to me. I'm great when I do it with clients because I have an objective which is to tell their story. It took me a while to really understand you have to know the full person in what they're going through in order to help them be successful.
10:08
Jack Zinda
And that means you have to have strong managers that sit down and take the time every week to have a one one, get to know them, understand what their struggles are and make sure they feel like you're trying to help them. And you know, one thing, and this is kind of just a general rule, is you can't have jerks at your company. Okay, There's a rule that I heard someone say one time is, you know, if you have one jerk at your company, that's okay. If you have two jerks, then you have a crisis because then it starts becoming cliquish. You know, they start creating issues with folks. And so I would really try to avoid having jerks if you can.
10:46
Jack Zinda
And so, you know, the other thing is you want to get rid of the Cs if they can't perform at a high level because that's really going to affect your A players to take off and not listen to you. So to kind of recap, I'd say one communications key, two to knowing what makes a great work culture for you. And again, that doesn't have to be the same for everyone. You know, some work cultures may not be. We all take out the trash and that's fine. I mean, if you go to some of the hedge funds or VC funds or some amazing law firms, you know, the senior person doesn't do anything outside their job description and they crush it that way. This was just a value that was important to me for what I wanted to build for my company.
11:23
Jack Zinda
And remember, culture isn't like a negative or positive emotion. It's like what you want the atmosphere to be like. Okay, next question. What is the number one leadership skill that has helped me grow my firm? Man, that is a tough one. I would say the ability to communicate complicated messages in a simple way. Because to me, leadership is about getting people to understand where they're going and how to get there. And so, you know, something I've always been good at is taking complex topics and breaking them down into their smallest part to make it very simple to execute. When I used to work at my dad's restaurant, I would figure out how to wash the dishes in a way that made it the most efficient.
12:10
Jack Zinda
You know, you always go the stuff with the cheese on it first that takes the longest to get off, then you go the pans, then you do the glasses last. Those are like the quick ones, easy to knock out. You, you can organize them a certain way to get them through the system quickly. And so I took those important lessons to the law firm. And so, for example, if I'm looking at our mission, what we're trying to do, I say, why does that matter? How does it make a difference to our people and to our community? Now, how do we tie it back to your individual job that you're going to do and how do we recognize people for the work they do? That may not be the most glorious or glamorous, but it's tied back to the mission.
12:45
Jack Zinda
So for example, if I'm having an all hands, we give core value awards to people in the company and might go to someone in the finance department. Even though it's related to a seven figure case, we say, hey, the finance department got the check in quickly, got the closing statement processed, and really made sure were able to get this part run through. Or the medical records team did a great job in getting these records pulled out, which allow us to get the demand out, which allowed us to get this case resolved very fast. So recognizing people for that. The other quality that I don't know if I've always had But I think is really important is you have to know where you're going.
13:21
Jack Zinda
I see a lot of law firms and a lot of just people in life are just kind of, you know, randomly doing one thing after the other, and they don't really have a goal in mind. And I think it's very difficult to lead people without a map. And, you know, once you figure out what that map is, you have to repeat it over and over and over again and again. These are not things that come naturally well, to me, but I had to practice. And I would also say that's important that you have to look at leadership as a skill that you can acquire, not as a trait that you're born with or you're not. I'm a big believer that you can improve yourself and change things significantly, you know, over time.
14:05
Jack Zinda
When I was in high school, I was not the most outgoing person when I was, you know, up to my sophomore year. And I remember one day I just made a decision. I was like, I'm gonna make myself do everything that makes me feel uncomfortable, whether it was talking to a girl, whether it was like, you know, kind of mixing it up with someone else, whether it was saying something in class. And I did that for a year, and by the end of the year, it was easy and came naturally to me. So you can develop the skills as a leader if you read books, learn what other people have done, and then break it down into steps to help you get there. So I would say kind of the most important things would be, one, knowing where you're going.
14:42
Jack Zinda
Two, you know, telling it to your team over and over again. And then three, working on that as its individual skill, like you're trying to learn to try a case. All right, that's it. Thanks for all the questions. I actually get a lot out of these, and it helps me think through why I did things sometimes. I'm figuring that out, actually, as I answer these questions, and I love to hear different ideas, insights. So thank you for sharing them. And if you have any questions of your own, feel free to email us. You can text me. You could call our law firm. I love talking shop, and I love helping other attorneys grow because I think a rising tide raises all ships. So thank you and talk to you soon.
15:27
Speaker 2
Thanks for listening today's episode of the Effective Lawyer. You can learn more about our team and find other episodes of our podcast zindalaw.com as always, we'd appreciate that you subscribe, rate and review the pod.
15:39
Jack Zinda
Thanks.