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Yappin’ about real life and the OG.
Just got done, like, binging all of your content this morning. Has been absolutely amazing. Yeah. Your your YouTube video, like your testimony. I was like, this is insane.
Micaela:Like, just going through and it's just like, I feel like I finally am talking to somebody who understands and doesn't think I'm crazy too. Because part of my, I'm sure you know, is like it's physical attacks as well. So then it's just like, oh my gosh, like somebody that gets it. So as soon as I was like going through and watching stuff, I was like, let's go. So dude, I'm so excited about today.
Micaela:I it's such a blessing to be able to talk to you, so I really do appreciate that.
John:Nice. Yeah. I don't I don't fully yeah. I started watching Teddy's episode a little bit, and then yeah, I don't know how far I got into it. Maybe thirty minutes or something like that and I haven't caught back up and I have not done any research on you or or any background.
John:Sure. But yeah, so if there's anything that you could tell me, have you been in the faith a while? Or
Micaela:Yeah. I actually I grew up in a church, but it wasn't who I understand Christ to be now. It was very works based in Old Testament. So, like, clean and unclean meats, we kept all the holy days. I later found out it was a cult, actually.
Micaela:It was only whenever I was 18 and I was in counseling. And then they educated me on what a cult was, that there's three characteristics. There's a charismatic leader. There's isolation and control. And so once they kind of showed me, like, hey, the church you grew up in was not normal.
Micaela:I was third generation. It was all normal to me. But anyways, that really tainted my view on God. I had a lot of abuse growing up too. I was molested by my father.
Micaela:And so, like, I had this really negative viewpoint towards anything father like, including God. And so I went down this rabbit hole where was like, alright. I'm gonna do things myself. And so new age was it for me, spirituality, and got into that and tarot cards, spirit guides, crystals, rituals, everything. And kinda like your testimony where you're saying like stuff happened, like things were answered.
Micaela:I felt like I was finding truth. And but it was like you couldn't get enough. Like, was like you just always needed more. Like, there wasn't this peace about it. But long story short, whenever I started turning away from it and moving towards Christ, specifically Christ in the Bible.
Micaela:There was I had a dream a week before the spiritual attack, and it was super cool. Now looking back, back then, I was like, I didn't think anything about it. But it was like the devil in my dream. I was absolutely terrified. Like and I was like, I was in this enclosed room and I remember turning away and I was just like terrified.
Micaela:I couldn't look at it. I couldn't like, didn't wanna be around it. I was trying to run away, but I couldn't. Was like stuck. And then God was on the other side.
Micaela:And he was just so just relaxed. And that was something that like really struck me in my dream because I'm like panicking, like can't breathe, feel like I'm just like, you know, in the middle of it. And he was just like, you're gonna you're gonna turn back, but I need you to do it from my strength now. And I was like, I can't do it. I can't do it.
Micaela:I can't face this. I can't you know what I mean? Like, fear was a big part of my testimony for a very long time. And once I turned back and did it from God's strength, I looked back at it and it turned into stone. And I remember waking up after that, and I was like, interesting.
Micaela:Like, maybe God's telling me, like, I need to face these things, but not from my own strength now, but from his and to find deliverance in that. And a week later, I ended up getting strangled in my bed by something demonic. And I remember trying to get away, like, just trying to, like, pull away and I couldn't. And then I I literally just said, Jesus help. And it instantly went away.
Micaela:And I remember after that, I was just like, one, I realized how real the spiritual realm was. I was like, okay. The stuff I'm messing with, the things I'm talking to, they're not of God. It really humbled me. And then two, I realized I was like, Jesus is, like, the most powerful thing I can call on.
Micaela:Like, it was like a a realization for me. So, yeah, that's like a super condensed version. But, yeah, that was kind of like how I started out with faith, came into new age, experienced spiritual attacks, and then I had a moment of deliverance too. And that was something I was wanting to touch on maybe potentially with you because I know you're talking about Arizona deliverance ministry. And I think deliverance is a big thing that people may not understand or maybe even be afraid of.
Micaela:But like I 100% was completely delivered by some kind of spirit. I don't know what. But ever since then, like the fear almost felt like a switch that I could turn on and off versus just consuming my life. So it it was a it was a cool moment.
John:Yeah. That's amazing. Praise God. What Praise God, dude. What was there a title or a denomination name of what you were in before?
Micaela:No. They just said Christianity because they said that means following in the footsteps of Christ. But the main follower, his name was Ronald Weineland. He was known as like, God's final witness is what he called himself. And then they would, like, predict when Jesus is gonna return, and then that kind of situation.
Micaela:So it was a little bit like doomsday kind of thing. But they did call themselves Christianity, but it wasn't necessarily that.
John:Interesting. Yeah, I would have my brain is going crazy with questions right now, and I don't know if we want to turn that into this or this into that. But I'm fascinated because I'm I yeah, the more I study well, to kinda start with what you were saying about deliverance ministry, that was my introduction into, it was like my on ramp, I suppose. And that's a highly debated topic about deliverance ministry and cessationism is like the word for it. Do do believers have the authority to be at their whim, have the ability to cast demons out of people and all of that.
John:And I definitely did experience things. Then there are the scriptures about like, I forget where it's at. It's like they're using the power of Satan to cast out Satan and you run into those sort of scriptures. And yeah, the more I study, yeah, I'm definitely not a cessationist, but I just don't know if people are given the the authority to be able to just like command spirits out like Jesus did. Anytime he would do it, kinda all of the instances.
John:I was getting into this recently. He actually they actually well, since he was in Matthew, it's a audience of people from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin who are living in Judea at the time. So it's a quote unquote Jewish audience that Matthew is writing to. And anytime someone would be delivered, you see that he tells them to go to the temple and do an offering immediately after. And it's fascinating that when you start to get into like heavy context like that, it gets interesting.
John:And it's a whole another thing. So I do believe that that their miracles happen, deliverance happens. I just don't know how much authority is placed on the human being. The human being through their faith in Christ to be given the authority to do it at their timing and their will. Think it's like a lot of it.
John:There's the other passages about, I think in Luke 11, where it's like, the person it's kind of indicating if the person's not repentant enough or if they're not ready for it and a demon is cast out, that demon will go over. It talks about like waterless places, it's waiting around and then it goes back to the house and returns. And if it's not in the right order, then it will bring on spirits and make the the person seven times worse. So it's like, if you look at it that way and it's like, if someone's casting a demon out from someone, say if say if I go, I'm like, oh, this there's someone perhaps homeless and they look like they're they're had their oppressed or possessed and you just walk up to them and you think you can just go cast a demon out and it does essentially work, but the person isn't changed. Well, then you just made their situation potentially seven times worse because the spirit comes back and makes it.
John:So it's like a finicky subject to me now. And I, the reason why sort of question it now is because I would go back to sermons or listen to things that doctrinally that that deliverance ministry kind of talks about and it's there's things that are like kind of way off in terms of context and things like that. So I question it now a little bit as to how much of it is actually being done by the person or being done by the person that's saying they're casting the demon out or how much of it is the person's just ready and they're repentant and they're ready to walk and so so our father is allowing them to be delivered at that point. And it's not necessarily, you know, being being credited to the person saying that they're have a ministry that they're able to cast demons out at the will of at the timing of when they say they can. So it's a it's fascinating.
John:I because I used to be full on like it's straight up because I did experience things there and things are happening. It's not like things aren't going on and that stuff's like completely fake. There probably is instances of that. Like the stuff you see on TV where it's like you hear the stories of the person like falling back when the person touches them. How much of that sort of like theatrics then gets carried over into deliverance ministry and how much are people playing a part in that whatever actor whether or not.
John:You definitely do have to have incredible discernment. The the scriptures tell us that and the only place you can go to get that is to the scriptures and then you see like in context all the scenarios of where these things are going on and it's like, oh, it's not as cut and dry as it's not as, like, hard lined as we think it is. And then then there is that aspect of, alright, you're delivered now. You know? Like, you cast the demon out.
John:And it tells him that, like, like be on your way and it seems to indicate that every time he does it, they then go to the temple and and bring an offering which is like really interesting because that opens up a whole another like topic as well. And so, anyway, that's Totally. Think it's real, though. It's real.
Micaela:Very real. 100%. Yeah. And I appreciate what you said about the repentance piece because I do think that that is a a big piece for, like, somebody to be delivered fully, I would assume that, yes, they would have to be repentant. Like, they couldn't continue to, like, open back the door to what may have allowed that in the past because then, like you said, it would just come back.
Micaela:I do when you're talking about in the instances where Jesus delivered people from demons, it made me think of one where Paul, there was this girl that was following them and he was getting annoyed by her. Him and Silas were like walking and this girl's like just basically yelling about them and who they are. And it says that she was like a fortune teller and that her keepers valued her a lot because she's bringing a lot of money to them. And Paul turned around and said, may the Lord rebuke you. And then the demon left her.
Micaela:And then they got mad at Paul and Silas because that family obviously lost the way that they were making money. But I thought that was interesting too. But it made me think of that whenever you were talking about like the power to rebuke. Because I don't think that she probably wanted that to be removed, but he did rebuke her, but it was made the Lord rebuke you. So it wasn't like, I Paul, you know what I mean?
Micaela:Like it wasn't, so it's an interesting take though and something I still know very little about. I do have a random question though and I was hoping to ask you. I had, so my friends and I do some evangelism on the street and we came to a point where I believe that somebody we were talking to was not, I believe there might've been like an unclean spirit or something like that. There were a lot of indicators, but like, so the conversation started because he had some tattoos and they said, God. And so we're like, oh, like, what do you think about God?
Micaela:You know, stuff like that. And quickly started to come to realize that I don't think we believed in the same God. And so he's like saying the universe and some other things. And then he won't say Jesus. So that was another thing where it was like, okay, because we're like, yeah, like Jesus, like we're saying Jesus and he like won't say the name Jesus.
Micaela:So then it was kind of like, that's kind of weird, but oh, you know, maybe some people just don't, you know? And then he came back to us and he was like, I'm a healer. And then I was like, you're a healer? Like that's another kind of like indicator kind of red flag, you know? Then I asked him, I was like, well, how do you do it?
Micaela:You know? Because I was hoping he'd be like, you know, I ask God through the Holy Spirit, you know, stuff like that. But he was like, I read some verses and then he does this thing with his hand. And then he says, I do my thing. And he goes like that.
Micaela:And I was like, yeah, this doesn't feel right. I don't think that we're talking about the same thing. Then at the end he asks to pray with us. And so at that point I was almost kind of turning back around where I was like, oh, maybe he's like, you know, maybe he does believe in Jesus, you know, whatever. Still doesn't say Jesus name.
Micaela:But then I kid you not, when I put my hand on his back, like have you been to a funeral before? You know, whenever you're like standing next to the body and there's a body there, but there's like nothing in it. It was that exact same feeling where it's like, I touched him and it was like, there was no warmth. It didn't feel like there was any type of like, I've never felt it before. It was very eerie.
Micaela:And then after that, I was like completely, like, okay. Something is wrong here. Like, it does not feel right. Like, something is just off. But I was kinda curious on your thoughts because it sounds like, no, you can't really help people that may not wanna be, like, cleansed from unclean spirits, and we're not even sure maybe what that is.
Micaela:But, like, what would you do in that situation if you're evangelizing, somebody's going there? Like, how do you protect yourself from that? You know?
John:Yeah. In that instance, see, because II was getting to the point when I first came in and I since I my first like group experience of like some sort of like gathering of Christians was deliverance ministry. So that's how I started out, and it's very experiential. They do a sermon and everything. So I was thinking like, oh, is this what I'm gonna, like the route that I'm gonna go down?
John:And like I said, the instance of casting, just being able to think you're able to just go up to people and cast demons out and do those things. It took a lot of praying and reading scripture and everything. So I ended up not going down that route. So in that instance, where it's like the person, it seems to be like you know more about scripture than they do, but they wanna say that they believe. So it all becomes like doctrinal sort of things.
John:And how ecumenical do you want to get with all of that? And I think the only answer to that is discipleship, literal and this is what it's scripture says, go and make disciples. And so evangelism, it can get people to a certain point. Maybe that person had been evangelized to, or they heard scripture or the Bible, or they grew up a certain way. But how often their understanding of scripture, how often is it?
John:So in that instance, it's like, well, they just would need to be correct. Like they believe in Christ, they have the wrong one possibly. They have the wrong understanding of sort of things. Like don't like he's saying he's a healer, like our, like how does that go about? And that's where you have to go.
John:It's like it's exactly what Jesus did four times in a row in Matthew four when he's trying to combat against Satan. He he goes, it is written. It is written. He just goes to scripture and so you have to what it's hard because there does, you don't ever wanna be like like start getting aggressive with that kind of person. Be like, yeah, you're not saved.
John:You don't believe in the right Jesus. Totally. Then it's like it makes you sort of seem. Yeah. You're judging essentially because you you almost do put your place in the seat of judgement to being like, yeah, you're not you're not a believer.
John:So, it's like it all becomes a doctrinal thing and discipleship is you you it's not a one time thing like you have to keep being around people and teaching and and you're all kind of digging into the scriptures to see what's right. Being breeds, testing the scriptures every day, digging in. So that sort of thing in that instance, it's like, it's hard because like what you're doing, it's commendable. Being out in the streets, it's an intense thing to do. You're going to see people manifest like that and agitated and possessed people.
John:It's undeniable. I've seen it. I haven't done a lot of it. I've been around it. And so I think in that instance, it's like you don't know.
John:You pray for them first of all and then you just try to use scripture and say like, point things out and know. So when you get into evangelism like that, I think it's like, you gotta really know where to point and like make sure you have your Bible on hand so you can know where to point them to and read it because the word of god is powerful and if you're reading it straight from there, straight from the Bible, you know, it it's, you know, it says, it says what it says it is like if the the word of god is a sharp as a two edged sword and it pierces down to the, you know, the marrow and all those sorts of things. So, it does do that and so if someone has a partial truth and they've they've twisted it with their own sort of understanding but they they may have heard that that verse in its context or whatever in the past and then they take it and they run with it and use their own understanding of it and it leads them down a weird path. Well, then they hear it again from someone that's evangelizing.
John:That would to me is like discipleship. So whether or not you know it, I don't, it's like what, what, to what degree is discipleship? Like, where does it start and like how new to the person or whatever they're a believer? But it always is. To me, it's like you always have to go back to the word of God and like prove it with what's written.
John:It's exactly what Jesus did. So I don't know in that instance, like what you're saying, it's it's hard because, yeah, it does, like, how how do we know it? Like, you you're the one there. So and, you know, you you've been given the holy spirit to to have that sort of discernment to know whether or not that person was possessed or not or like where it is. You can get a gauge on that.
John:Don't think we're supposed to deny or like sort of gut gut feeling and whatever the Holy Spirit may be sure indicating for us.
Micaela:I totally agree. I think you're spot on on the discipleship. I think my fear is because previously I've unknowingly opened up a door to the demonic. And so I don't know what that line is where, for example, when we prayed together, I was like, okay, well, he did end it in Jesus name. Am I praying to whoever his God is?
Micaela:Like, you know what I mean? So, like, the stuff like that was where I started messing with my consciousness where I was like, okay, where's the line where I'm drawing him to Christ and he's not drawing me into darkness. Like I still don't know what that line is, I guess. And I think it is important, like you said, to disciple. But I think I still have some hesitancy just because I didn't know what I was doing in the past was like tarot cards and spirit guides and stuff like that.
Micaela:Like, I thought that was light. And it says like how, you know, Satan masquerades himself as an angel of light. You know what I mean? So I think I'm always probably maybe even a little bit too cautious, you know? So I was kinda curious about your thoughts on kind of where, like discipling, but then like, is there a line?
Micaela:Do you say like, okay, like, yeah, I don't know. And it probably depends on the person, right?
John:So, yeah, I think that comes down to intention and what you do know because sin is transgression of the law and submitting yourself to god is following the law of god. That's like, I think James four:seven is, I think it's something like, yeah, submit yourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee, draw near to God and he will draw near to you, cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your heart you double minded. It's that sort of, I think it's the point of where you know that something isn't right. So when I, what you asked was such a crazy, out of all the spiritual warfare that I encountered when I first came into the faith, it was that question, like where is the line to this? Because it seemed like that's what the battle was.
John:Like, it was such a finicky fine little line. And I, yeah, so when I, something that mellowed me out. So like the concept of, like in the instructions of God, like what idolatry is, it's kind of way more extreme than what people that come out of the new age sort of view it to be. Because some of like all that new age, the tarot cards and all of that, it's all divination. It's not good.
John:But like you said, you unintentionally, you didn't know at that point. You were not taught that that stuff was wrong. And so, inside of, in, in the Torah, in the law, there was an a, there was a, a specific atonement like a a offering that the people, the Israelite people, like that was commanded to them. The law was given to them and it's called unintentional sin. There's straight up a whole, I think it's Leviticus four but god included in his way, in his instructions.
John:He included a way out for people through the priesthood and all of that stuff to be forgiven of things that they don't know that they didn't know that they were doing unintentionally. It's unintentional sin. I think it's Leviticus four. So in the same way, I think it comes down to like, so Christ is our high priest right now. He's at the right hand of the father.
John:And so I in my eyes, if we are to confess our sins, how do we know what sin is? Sin is transgression of the law. So, like we often hear like the law is done away with. It's abolished and so people kind of it makes them veer away from wanting to study it to know actually what sin and sin isn't. And so that line becomes like how to me it's like how much do you know like of the law and like because there could be things that I'm trying to think of something where it's like yeah, like how how hard is the line of like where you're doing something wrong and like you're submitting yourself to, like, I don't think in prayer that you were, yeah, you're evangelized.
John:You're you're your intentions were some to to do something good and then the moment came up came upon you where, you know, you decided to pray and he decided to pray. I don't think you're then submitting to his God if he has the wrong God. I don't think that's, to me, that sort of fine line like that is not, it's definitely not a salvation sort of topic.
Micaela:For sure.
John:But yeah, where do you, it's a hard question to know, but I always go, I think that's where you have to then study more, study the law, like, And you weren't intentionally and this is what I mean about people that come out of the new age. It happened to me. I went through it. I was like, exactly what you're talking about and asking about is like, you get finicky finicky about everything and then kind of everything becomes demonic and it's like, you're like, you you get trapped in that a little bit and then you're then you just, yeah, you you study more and you you learn the character of god and his instructions. That's a huge thing for me is like me when I understood it's in it's in one of the, I think it's in first John.
John:It just straight up says what sin is. And so you're like, it's transgression of the law. So you go study the law. And then when you realize like what the Israelite people were doing that was idolatry, a lot of things that people that come out of new age stay is idolatry. It's not really because they don't know.
John:They're not straight up setting up an idol like carving in a statue, wrapping it in a gold, and trying to summon demons into like summon a god into an object so that so that their god is present in front of them. That's like what that's what idol worship was. Yeah. So, the degree like people aren't doing that but it's just to me, the fix to all of it is true discipleship and the word of god in context. Like really, really knowing the scriptures and so that's I mean, that's the answer to it.
John:That's It is hard and it is finicky because it's because there is a tangible thing that's going on. You do feel that. Don't necessarily want to say you were maybe that trauma of fear that you had before was coming back in those instances or not. It's hard to say but yeah, it's it's why I think studying the law is a good thing even though a lot of people are like, yeah, we're not we're not if the law doesn't save us all this thing. It's not it doesn't, but it's still, it hasn't gone away.
John:I'm of the belief that in the kingdom to, like when Christ returns and he sets up his kingdom, this is a eschatology topic that the law will be in place in order for the kingdom to operate and there to be a peaceful time on earth that the old testament prophets called the messianic age. That's just what I hear. So when I, if I view it logically and say like, okay, well, in the future, when he's back, the whole world is gonna like Christ is gonna rule and reign with the rod of iron, you know, as the king of kings that are outside of the kingdom across the earth. The law of God is fully gonna be in effect. So I have to go, okay, so what, where does that place us right now?
John:We don't have a temple. We don't, Jesus isn't physically here. So we are in this period of time where, you know, these things, it's like, what what is it? Like, what are we actually supposed to do? What are we not?
John:It it it can end up like to what you grew up on where it's like, these people are like, you have to do this and this and like, it becomes you where you're going going. I don't know what they fully believed if they thought the law was saving them or not. I'm not I'm not too sure but I I do believe that. Yeah. It's it's straight up says sin is transgression of the law and then you'll get into the you'll get into the the topic of like how much of the law should Christians be following like homosexuality is not in the 10 commandments but then you have people, you get what I mean?
John:It's like, where is it all going? To me, I go, in the kingdom to come, there's straight up verses that say, if people are not participating in the festivals, their land is not gonna get rained. So they're getting punished for not participating in the holidays of the Old Testament. So I'm like, woah, this is like, it's fascinating stuff. But in order to participate truly in the holidays, you need a temp.
John:We don't have an active temple. We don't have that. In the future, it does seem to be that that where wherever Christ is gonna be tangibly be. It's a long topic. I don't wanna get too much into that, but it this is just to kind of let people know that there's way more to scripture.
John:Like there's a lot of things that are not fulfilled in the Old Testament. But often times you'll hear in Christianity like it's done. Like it's finished. And there's so much scripture about like God's people still needing it needing to be regathered in a specific area in peace that none of that has happened yet. And and clearly, we're not we're not in peace right now.
John:Like, spiritually, you can say that, but we're persecuted like Christians are all over the world. So we're not even though, you you know, you put your faith in Christ, you become a child of God through faith in Christ. The the prophecies of that fulfillment, how it literally happens is not is not matching up with people's spiritual idea of that happening right now. Christians all over the world that are not in peace in in in a land where there's peace, like it says, will be fulfilled for God's people. So Totally.
John:We're in the middle of it and and a good way when it when it comes to that question you asked, I always go, well, Stin is like transgression of the law. So, go to the law, study it, and and really look and see what it is, like, whether or not I'm actually, you know, doing something I shouldn't be or like, and then and then draw back. Because oftentimes, like alcohol is one. Like it it straight up says like Christ came eating and drinking and they were blaming him for being a, you know, a gluttonous, whatever. And it's like, so are we law doesn't nowhere in the law says you can't drink alcohol, but then you'll have denominations and people where it becomes they become pharisaical.
John:So they're adding onto the law just like the pharisees were adding onto the law, the Torah, and making it more burdensome than it needed to be. The same thing happens with the the concept of the church being legalistic. They're adding on to, they're saying they have the authority now because we're the church. We get to tell, we get to say what the law is and it's a big topic and so, and it, but it does tie into with what you're saying. And, and to me, the only answer true answer to that is that the word of God and the truth.
John:And so digging into that, but it is, it's not to like pull away and try to avoid how like, tangible the experiences are when you're trying to like sort through that stuff. It's it's intense. And I do fully believe that as you're trying to study that out and perhaps the adversary knows in some way that you're scared or you're in fear of these things, like, they'll they'll unclean spirits will will pester for sure to try to get you to not, you know, to not go to find the truth, to like, be freed of that sort of thing, full on. I did write that. The word of God.
Micaela:It's solid, and that's a good answer too. And I'm I'm happy that you said that, but it reminds me of a quote that you had in your testimony. You said every time I was revealing a truth, was attacked. And I think that's a good point that you're bringing up is like where I mean, enemy knows us possibly better than we even know ourselves. Like, knows my fears.
Micaela:He he knows scripture better than we know scripture. Like, he knows the ways to to attack us effectively. So I think that that's a good thing to keep in mind. But something about you that I can't shake is like, you just have this peace. Peaceful.
Micaela:Like after experiencing some of the spiritual attacks that you have, I feel like it would be the opposite where at least it was for me after experiencing certain things. It's like, I definitely am moving towards peace 100%, but I don't feel like I'm completely certain in the like, nothing bad will happen to me. Maybe that's not where your peace is coming from. But I'm curious, like, why? Like, how do you where is that coming from?
John:Well, I think having started in the deliverance ministry and then sort of coming out of that knowing that's not the route that I was gonna go down. I went through a phase of like the not necessarily prosperity but like, you can be healed like God. Like, if you pray, you're gonna be given, like, that sort of idea and interpretation of the Bible that, if you're praying to God and you're doing the right things and all these things and you're asking, that you'll be given and you'll be healed of like these things. So it's not was there was aspects of like prosperity in it. And that sort of led me to like being ascetic in a way to where you're like stripped away almost like monk, like monastery sort of where you're like avoiding tons of things and because you don't know enough yet, so you don't know what you should or shouldn't be doing.
John:So you're just like, yeah, you're aesthetic and just avoiding like tons of stuff. And it's like an overcorrection sort of thing. So I went through that and then I started to have every time I kept reading more and praying, like I wasn't having prayers be answered. So I had a tangible experience encounter with God and Christ. And by this point I had fully understood why Christ was given to us and all of that.
John:But things weren't getting better in my life in terms of like financial and just a ton of thing, like other things that that you think you're getting through prayer, like and so I guess my answer would be Job, the book of Job. To that is like, you're it's not like a defeatist mentality at all. It's just understanding. To me, what helped all of it is understanding fully eschatology is it is that because I understand now, like there's verses like Romans eight, it says, like all creation is groaning waiting for the the the revealing of the children of god and you start to realize that like it's not just like that didn't like that was written and said by Paul thirty something years after the cross. So why is he saying like why is he saying that creation is still groaning and and it's waiting for the children of god to be revealed?
John:Then, you learn that, okay, Christ is the first fruits of the first resurrection. When he returns, we're gonna be resurrected, perfected, glorified, given our glorified bodies. You go, that's an eschatology topic And then it's like, oh, and he's here, all of these verses about like animals not eating each other anymore and like what the messianic age is going be like, you're like, oh, that's what happens when Christ returns. It's not just the Bible is not just about like individual salvation. It's about the whole entire creation and so when you understand that's future and still to come, it's clearly we don't have any evidence of any of that stuff happening in the past.
John:You go like, oh, we're still, we're groaning as well. We're like waiting. We're waiting for Christ as well. We're eagerly waiting. It doesn't mean we're we're trying to set dates of when we think he's going to return or anything like that but that then feeds into the topic of you go to Job and you're like, okay.
John:So, he was he was called a righteous man. He had all these things. Satan goes, well, he's only righteous because he has all this stuff. Let me go. Yeah.
John:Give me the give me the free reign to go to go mess with him. And God's like, alright. Well, you know, it's like, I think he's a righteous man, but we'll find out. And sure enough, is. So he holds through.
John:So like that book, it made me realize like, oh, we're not. And I had already been through like that there, you could say there's a philosophy to that. Like, maybe you could pin it to like stoicism or, or like, maybe even like Buddhism where it's like suffering, like some, there's things about like life is about suffering and. Mhmm. So like I had already went through all of that sort of stuff and that thinking and those beliefs and all of that.
John:So when I saw in scripture that like the story that the Bible gives us is about when Christ returned like it's a full thing about all of creation and we're just in a period of time where we're not promised any of these things. All those verses that people pull out to justify that we we should have prosperity now and healing and all of that. It's not in context, it's not meant to be applied to our life right now. It's about a time when we're gonna be literally perfected and glorified when he returns and we'll be with him like on this earth. And so when I got through all of that and I learned it was like, oh, well, I don't like, it's like a bummer because it's like, oh man, I thought I could use God as like a genie and pray and get, you know, it's like, it's not to say that he doesn't bless people and and you can if you are walking in obedience that and you're you're doing these things that he won't that he's not gonna bless you.
John:I do fully believe he blesses like full on and people if you're if you're working, like, along with him by being, like, a godly man and you're or or, like, a lot of things like Proverbs, the the 31 woman, it's, within that, the this woman is crafty. She's, like, making things. She's, an entrepreneur. And so it's, like, you're working. It's not like you're just sitting there waiting.
John:You're you're you're working along. You you're making sure that you're you're interacting with creation. We are given dominion over creation, so you're working with it. Even though at this point in time, it's under decay. It's groaning right now.
John:It's like when Adam and Eve fell, right, when the it says cursed is the ground. That's something that people don't really, they like to say that cursed and then it's like, it's people. It's it's it's just it straight up says the ground is cursed and they're kicked out of the presence of god from the garden. So then they have to go toil on the cursed ground and that's the period of time that we're in when Christ returns. So, it's knowing that whole general concept and knowing that like we're striving and I had already having ran a business and seeing all the corrupt like how money actually works and like what the Federal Reserve is.
John:This idea of if taking from somewhere else to front what you're trying to operate with, it's not a true thing. The thing that you're making isn't what's providing the outsourcing of money that's propping you up. The whole world operates like that. You just go through and you're like, oh, this is all. You start to realize like, oh, we're still in a fallen state but a lot of but we know we're eagerly waiting for that resurrection in that time to come when when when he returns and so you're you're in this.
John:It's awesome. And to know that like all of these things and imaginative thoughts before you knew Christ of the Bible, like just everyone has these thoughts. Like, I wanna fix that. I want the world. I can see the world to be this beautiful, magical, like, awesome place where like, it's complete peace and everything.
John:The Bible actually tells us that's what's going to happen and people ignore that. They don't sometimes they don't take it literally or since Christ says it's finished on the cross, they tend to think that it all happened there, but then you have indications of verses where, like Romans eight is a perfect example. It's like, he's straight up, it's written well after the cross. So why would he be saying that, you know? So you realize like, as much as we should be, like, hallelujah, Christ did it, like, you know, he he was killed by the wicked adulterous generation.
John:He was in the heart of the earth for three days. He resurrected. He is now our incorruptible, everlasting great high priest in the order of Melchizedek. That's an actual job. It's a it's a minister.
John:He's ministering. He's fulfilling that role and when you put these things, these sort of things in like chronology of events that happened, you start to you start to see like what's going on and it bring, it's just the understanding of what scripture says that gives me that peace because it's like, you stop trying to like strive to be like, oh, I'm the one that's going to bring the kingdom to Earth and I'm the one that so you you go like, oh, it's not really like all these, all the times you sit here like kingdom building. We're building the kingdom and we need to build this building bigger so the church can be big. Like that's all not we're not told to be doing that. Like it's we're not building the kingdom right now.
John:The way that we are building the kingdom is by getting souls, people to put their faith in Christ so that in the future, the kingdom that these souls and these people will be resurrected, perfected, and inherit that kingdom that's coming. And so when you have that whole thing and that whole understanding, you're like, okay, it's not as Yeah, you don't want to It's not defeatist mentality, but it's not like you just kind of understand that there's work to do, not work that's going to save us, but we're still like in this period of time where it's And you know, you just get there and you're like, well, whatever happens to me right now, it's like, well, it's because it's a word in a fallen. It's the world is still cursed. The the the ground is still cursed and the way that we interact with it in terms of like what the things that bring us joy in this life and all of that. People are still in a fallen state.
John:We're still, you know, even though we're redeemed, we still sin and you know, so it's understanding that you you find the peace and and and understanding that like you you have more grace for people and more mercy for how people understanding that. Yeah. We're all still like and it and it just was like we're at that knowing place and period of time where we are in scripture. And it's like this, we're in the middle of it and it's, we're not quite at the, we're not at the place where all of these beautiful verses that we like to say that are applicable to us now, they're not there yet. And so it's like, we're still going, but we know we're so excited and we're waiting, we're eagerly waiting for that.
John:And that's our hope. That's our faith. We know it's coming, and that's what we're trying to tell the world. That's the good news, that all of creation, everything is going to be restored to a perfect Eden like state.