Books I Make My Husband Read

Witches and witch hunters take center stage in Episode 06 as Kristy and Jon discuss Heartless Hunter by Kristen Ciccarelli. The duo talk about morally ambiguous characters, sacrifices, and whether they are Team Gideon or Team Alex. While it is their longest episode to-date, they think it might be the best one yet!

Links
Official author website: https://www.kristenciccarelli.com/ 
On Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127305713-heartless-hunter 
Video recap: https://youtu.be/tpcTAg8HCGM 
Book Lovers by Emily Henry: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58690308-book-lovers 
The Boyfriend by Freida McFadden: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/208503280-the-boyfriend 
BIMMHR Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/booksimakemyhusbandread/
BIMMHR email: booksimakemyhusbandread@gmail.com 
Kristy on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/kristypritzl
Jon on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/jkpritzl

Chapters

Creators & Guests

Host
Jon King-Pritzl
Host
Kristy King-Pritzl

What is Books I Make My Husband Read?

Join us for a hilarious and heartfelt journey as one book-loving wife curates an unexpected reading list for her husband. With each episode, dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and surprising insights on the books she just has to make him read. It’s a book club with a twist—and you’re invited!

Though, as I was reading, it did slightly take me back to my high school days when I was always the nice guy. Are you Alex? And never taken seriously as dating material.

Hello listeners and welcome to this week's episode of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host Kristy and this is my co-host, my husband Jon whom I make read the books. Hello everybody. This week we'll be discussing Heartless Hunter, an enchanting and exciting romantic fantasy about friendship, love, power, courage, and betrayal.Enemies-to-lovers doesn't get more high stakes than a witch and a witch hunter falling in love in this bestselling novel by Kristen Ciccarelli.

Yeah, I really thought I had this one pegged as a typical enemies-to-lovers, but I was pleasantly surprised. But before we get into our deep discussion of this book, we want to share the next two books that we'll be discussing, and/or the next two books that Kristy’s going to force me to read. You love it. The one we know is Book Lovers by Emily Henry, which you are currently reading right now. Yep, I started on our ride back from Montreal this weekend. Yes. And once again, you were laughing a lot as you were reading it. I was. I've decided that I really like good dialogue books. I think those get me. But anyway. Yes.

So I'm really struggling to pick another book for you, which seems really bad this early in our podcast journey. So I was thinking that we might do something we haven't done before which is both read a book at the same time. Ooh, okay. I've been wanting to have you read a Frieda McFadden book, which is the mystery thriller books that I really like. She did the Housemaid series. I loved one and two in that series. Three I thought was a hot mess. Okay. But every single one of her books, I have just flown through. I mean, I feel like from the first page on, I'm just like, stay up until 3 a.m. reading these books. She just released The Boyfriend, so I thought we would read that together. Okay. So our next, next book is going to be The Boyfriend by Freida McFadden. Brilliant. Which we'll read together. Okay, fun. Yeah, that's something different. Yeah.

So don't forget that you can also keep up with our upcoming books by following us on Instagram at Books That Make My Husband Read. Yeah. While you're there, drop us a comment, send us a DM, whatever your little heart desires, whether it's a question or something you like or dislike about the show, just let us know. We'd love to hear from you.

Yes and this week we do have a listener question and it comes from Rebecca in Washington, D.C. “How do you find time to read so much with your very busy lives?” That's a great question. How do you find so much time Jon? I - are forced against your will. Yeah, I have defaulted to audiobooks at like 2x speed is the only way; actually not 2x, it's like 1.4, but it's like the only way I feel like I can keep up and make it through books in this crazy two-week release schedule that we have set for ourselves. But I mean, that's me. That's what I found works for me. I need to listen. I'm a slow reader. So if I pick up a paperback, which I enjoy, I like having a physical book. I just don't read fast enough to be able to keep up and read those kinds of book in this time frame.

I am always listening to a book and reading at least one book at the same time. Right now I have three books. I have a physical book I'm reading. I have a book I'm reading on my Kindle. And then I have one that I'm listening to. And this is very annoying to Jon. But a lot of times I walk around the house with AirPods in my ear constantly. The first thing I do when I get up is I put them in my ear. I brush my teeth. I get ready with them. TMI. I put a shower cap on and I listen while I’m in the shower. So I have like an hour of listening time in the morning as I'm getting ready, making breakfast. Basically any time that I am by myself and don't have to think about something else, I 100% have AirPods in my ear.

But thank you again for the question. And as Jon mentioned, if you have a question, you can message us on Instagram or you can email us at booksimakemyhusbandread@gmail.com and we'll be sure to answer that in an upcoming episode.

As a reminder, if this is your first episode listening to us, this will contain spoilers, but we'll let you know in advance before we the cat out of the bag. You can listen up until the point where you hear a whoosh and then listen at your own peril. Yes. Alright, so you want to start the book summary? Yep. Let's get started. Right.

Heartless Hunter, also, I want to say this book was released in the UK under the name Crimson Moth. And I kind of like it. It's like the Crimson Moth series. It's a duology, so there's only gonna be two books. But if you're wondering why you saw this book under Crimson Moth, that's why it's Crimson Moth or Heartless Hunter. Got it. But anyway, so Heartless Hunter is an enemies-to-lovers romantasy novel. It's not quite as steamy as Fourth Wing. I would say it kind of falls between new adult and young adult, probably older teenagers. It was released in February of 2024. As mentioned, it's a duology, and the second novel comes out in February 2025, and I'm really excited for that.

The book follows Rune Winters. She's a witch who must hide her true identity in the aftermath of a devastating revolution that diminished witches from powerful rulers to outcasts who are ruthlessly hunted due to their magic. Yeah. And to hide in plain sight, Rune spends her days pretending to be a young socialite, but her nights as the Crimson Moth, which is a witch vigilante who rescues other witches from being purged, otherwise known as murdered by the government now in power. After a certain rescue goes wrong, Rune tries to throw the witch hunters off her scent and gain some desperately needed intel by courting a gentleman named Gideon Sharp. Gideon is a notorious and unforgiving witch-hunter who is fiercely loyal to this new revolution or this new government. And not to mention, Gideon is also the brother of her best friend, Alex.

Yes. And while Gideon loathes the shallowness that Rune represents, he soon learns that one of her ships was used to smuggle a witch out of the Republic. With this information, he inserts himself into Rune's social circles by pretending to court her right back. He soon realizes, though, that beneath her beauty and superficial facade is someone extremely intelligent and tender who feels like his perfect match. Awww. Except what if she's really the villain he's been hunting? Will they end up each other's greatest love or greatest enemy?

Again, this book came out in February, 2024. So if you read it a while ago and you are listening to this now and you're like, I like this book. I remember some parts, but I'm not 100 % sure. We are going to put a little video recap that I found on YouTube that gave a really good review of the book. Again, it has spoilers because it's a complete recap, but if you're interested in listening to that or watching that, I recommend it. All right. Now, anything beyond this point is going to contain spoilers. You've been warned.

As always, let's talk about what we rated the book. Okay. Here we go. So even though I've given the last couple that we've done fours, I'm giving this one a five. Ooooh. Yes, it was quite enjoyable. I love the subject matter and the concept of witches and how they cast magic and learning about casting scars and the different types of spells. I just found all that super interesting. I really thought I had this one pegged as a typical enemies-to-lovers trope. I was like, well, I already know what's going to happen. But I was pleasantly surprised not to know what happened. I thought the tension written between the, through the dialogue between Rune and Gideon and was just really well done. And it definitely kept me quote unquote turning the proverbial page. I was unclear, well, we'll get into this. I won't. I'll stop there.

I'll ask you. What did you give it? We'll get into the other stuff later. I gave it a five for a lot of the reasons you said. I was pleasantly surprised. This is going to sound bad, like how good the writing was, but when I think of a young adult novel or somewhere between young adult and new adult, a little slightly older range, sometimes the dialogue, the characters, can be less developed, but I felt it was really deep. And again, I think a lot of the narration is really introspective and there's these deep thoughts and feelings and very complex things that are happening that you don't always see in a lot of young adult novels. So I just really appreciated that. I like the characters. I like the love triangle that we're gonna talk about. And of course, love the idea of magic and witches.

I really appreciate it what I feel is a new take on it with the casting scars you mentioned and the blood, or maybe it's not, I don't know, maybe there's other books out there with casting scars and using blood and things like that. Yeah, was new to me. I just I enjoyed learning about like that level of witchcraft. Yeah. So I enjoyed it. I don't think that there's a ton of world-building in this, but I appreciate what we learn. I guess world-building as far as there is magic. They live in, you know, a slightly, I feel like different universe than we live in. So it ends on a cliffhanger. And I'm really excited for the second book. Yeah, same.

But before we dive into a thorough discussion, I know we don't do this with all of our books, but there is a lot going on here and I felt like when I was writing some of the questions that for those who aren't listening, if you have her on the book, you might not be able to understand it really if you don't know a few other pieces of information. So I'm gonna add a little more context. Okay, so a couple of years before the book is set, brothers Gideon and Alex Sharp, they killed the Roseblood sister queens and the new regime required that all witches be executed to restore the safety of citizens.

So during this time, Alex's best friend, Rune Winters, is forced to turn in her grandmother, whose name is, or she calls her Nan, and she does this so that she's not branded as a witch sympathizer. And basically Nan, her grandmother says like, either we're both gonna die or you turn me in. So Nan kind of like forces Rune to like turn her in to save herself. Now at this time, Rune does not know she's a witch, but the Republic executes Nan.

Then Rune gets her first period and it reveals that she's a witch. So rather than turn her over to the authorities, Alex, who killed the Roseblood sisters with his brother, which started this whole, like part of this whole revolution, he keeps Rune secret, also helps her save other witches, but also because he secretly loves Rune, which Rune is very oblivious to.

Okay, I talked a little bit about this already or mentioned it, but what were your thoughts on the world-building in this book? And do you see this book being set in a fantasy world, or is it a fantasy set in our world? I actually thought the world-building was well crafted. It wasn't super deep or detailed, but it was crafted enough where I felt like I had a clear picture. I definitely felt it was fantasy in our world, not necessarily a fantasy world - vice-versa. I don't know, just pictured an old world town outside of Boston in the 1800s or 1700s or something like that. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. It felt believable. It felt like there was some place I could go visit a historic landmark where this actually happened. It just felt like it was part in that world. Yeah, in Salem. Yeah.

I felt similarly, except it's not contemporary. It's not set in today's modern era. These teenagers, young adults, they're not running around with cell phones and posting on Instagram. They're writing each other letters and telegrams in order to request their presence at some place or invite them somewhere. So it felt very old timey, I'll say, you know, like late 1800s maybe. But I very much felt like it was in our world. They just have magic and they have things like we don't have now, supposedly. In my future. I still believe it's true. We just don't know it.

Alright, what did you think about Rune's origin story and how she came into her powers along with the impact they had on her friends and family? I mean, really felt for her having to turn in her grandmother like what an impossible choice at 16. I think she said she was maybe or maybe a little younger. I think the part where she discovers that she's a witch when she gets her first period. Like there was real dread you could feel in the pages that she was feeling. Like she was caught at her own party in this bathroom surrounded by people that she knew would kill her. Yeah, hate witches, right? You could really feel that through the words.

So in that same scene, I feel like we also learn a bit about Alex too, and where like his loyalties, not only his loyalties lie, but I think it's the first sign of, that he has emotional feelings. He loves her. Yeah. I actually bookmarked this, like when you do a little clip in Audible, it says Alex loves Rune. Like he deeply loves her, would die for her because you don't go from supposedly killing a witch queen and having your brother be the captain of the blood guard or whatever his official title is, right, to hiding a witch and keeping her secret. And then also like simultaneously, eventually helping her save other witches. Great point.

The impact of that is like it really puts him at real odds with his brother Gideon. Her other friend Verity, I hindsight's 20-20. I'm kicking myself a bit for not paying closer attention to her, or like their story of how they met. I just kind of took that face value of who she was. And she was just like a friend at the same age and lost people that they loved and that sort of thing.

I wonder, do we feel like Rune’s story changes if she only has to turn Nan in and isn't end up being a witch herself. Like how does that actually change her character? Because I still think that she didn't agree with the witches, being, I don't think she agrees with that. But does it really change when she herself finds out she's a witch? Yeah, it's a great question because we don't really get the origin story of how she started to become the Crimson Moth. Like what was the trigger of that? I mean, you could imply that it was Nan, but... But is it herself finding she's a witch. Right. And what led to the first one? What was the impulse there or whatever? We don't really get any of that. It's just sort of left to be implied. So yeah, it's a great kind of second thought.

So I think that author writes this story, you know, almost like good versus evil. So Rune being good, she's trying to save these witches who are being hunted down because they have powers, including herself and Gideon, who is the one hunting her. So we have, you know, the hunter and the hunted. And so Rune's really presented as the protagonist. And I feel like Gideon is represented as the antagonist in the story. However, as you get deeper into this story, I found myself like not necessarily thinking that was black and white. So I'm just wondering how you felt about that and during the story or do you completely see Gideon as an antagonist and Rune as a protagonist in the book?

Yeah, don't judge a book by its cover as they say, right? The dynamic was, it seemed obvious on the surface, but like you were saying, as you pull the layers back for each of them, you start to learn and you really start to empathize with both sides. It actually reminded me a little bit of Dexter. I mean, they're vigilantes. Yeah. Well, and like Gideon's character too is like he's doing what appears to be morally despicable actions. But when you learn... Are they though? Well, right. That's what I mean. It's like you're murdering. If the law is to round up the witches who were presumed to be evil and killed said witches, is he doing something that is bad?

Well, I said morally wrong, not illegal. I don't think that law and morality necessarily are parallel, yeah synonymous. But you can really start to empathize, especially when he reveals his past with Cressida, one of the Roseblood queens. Where you realize how he got the scar on his chest that he, you know, in the beginning, he talks about wanting to carve out of his chest. You can really start to build empathy and understand how he justifies his choices, given the circumstances of what sort of made him who he is as an adult.

The part that I found kind of funny too was that they both hate the opposite sides, so to speak. Like he hates witches and she hates the blood guard for wanting to kill witches. Yet they're both doing it with sort of only like half the picture. Clearly as we learn more about Cressida, witches aren't saints either, but in the beginning of the book, they're sort of portrayed as like these - victims. Yeah, victims. Right, exactly. And then as you learn, like, no, actually, yeah they were doing some shady shit. Yeah, some real shady shit. So.

And that's what I mean though. So it feels like you're rooting for Rune because she's trying to save these witches. She's a witch herself. You don't want her to be killed. And then you learn about all the stuff that the witch queens were doing. And you're like, okay, that's fucked up too. I understand why Gideon is hunting down these witches. Yeah. But you're right. They are operating from a place of a moral high ground, not having the other whole, full other side of each other's story.

And being so tunnel-visioned that they almost lose sight that there's the possibility of two sides to this coin. I do think that Rune starts to learn that possibly sooner than Gideon. She seems to build more empathy for him and his story than he does for her. But I don't know if that's really fair to say either because he doesn't really get her full story until the very end. I'm like who she is and why. Yeah.

So I guess we're bleeding a little bit into the next question, but they are faced with these deep internal struggles that are shaped by their past experiences. Rune being she had to give up Nan, she's a witch herself, and Gideon being that he, he and his family were tortured, terrorized, his mom and dad and his sisters were killed by these witch queens. So how do you relate to either Rune or Gideon's journey? And do you feel like where they are right now in their own journey is justified by their past experiences?

Yes. Maybe? It's hard to like… Uh, it's gray. It's so gray. But that I think is why it is so good. I think the author, Kristen Ciccrelli, does such a wonderful job with presenting these two morally gray characters and feeling that they're relatable and you feel sympathy for both of them, even though they're fighting for two very different and separate causes. Like, I just feel like there's such beauty in the writing there and that I felt like, I felt at both times and like, I don't know, like I feel for Gideon, even though I feel myself internally rooting for Rune. But I mean, there's Alex too. So I don't know.

I just it was I felt back and forth the whole book. Totally. I think when you can write like that, and you can allow a reader to be put in your shoes and like ask those kind of questions like if I put myself in Gideon's shoes, I, I think I would probably feel the same way as him. I don't know that I could look at life a different way. I think it was so brutal and so tormenting, physically and emotionally. And I mean, it just broke him multiple times over.

So in this enemies-to-lovers entanglement that we have, Gideon and Rune truly have reasons to hate each other, but do you feel that it was realistic that they were able to move past this? And then I have a separate question, but it's kind of entangled also. I felt that in the dialogue in the book, you actually get the sense that they know the other person is pretending. Like they both know that they're playing a game of cat and mouse. I'm just wondering, like, did you get that sense? And I guess how did you feel about them trying to outmaneuver each other, knowing they both know that? Am I making sense? Like do you get what I'm getting at?

Yeah, I think so. So the first part of your question though, yes, it felt genuine, but I don't think they moved past at all. I don't think they actually moved past any of the hate or because they didn't really know they hated each other. Not even for one night? Not even for one moment? I they didn't know that they hated each other though. Like, well or at least they didn't know that they hate each other for the reasons that... What do mean by that? Meaning like, we're led to believe in the beginning of their courtship that he really doesn't like her because she's this, ditzy. She's presented as like, ditzy, only cares about material things. Kind of thing. And so it's very believable that you can then learn about someone that they're more than that, they're deeper than that. And so that felt very realistic to me that he could begin to fall for someone after realizing, she's more than this.

I think the playing field is actually not perfectly even. And I say that because Rune knows who Gideon is. She knows that he's a witch hunter and knows that he's been after the Crimson Moth. And she believes that he's acting. But I don't know if she really, it's not as clear. I don't know why I want to answer this. He doesn't know that she's a Crimson Moth in the same way that she knows that he's the witch hunter hunting the Crimson Moth. And so it doesn't feel like an even playing field necessarily, even though they both know they’re, they might be acting. They're acting for different reasons.

I hear what you're saying. So Rune, she's coming into it with a different set of facts to her than what Gideon has. Like Gideon, he knows that a pair of witches that were saved were on her ship and smuggled out. So he thinks that she might have something to do with it. She knows a hundred percent that he is the captain of the blood guard and is hunting witches. Now, there's also something going on in the background of the book that members of the blood guard being slaughtered in the streets in the evenings, Gideon believes, as does the rest of the blood guard, that the person saving the witches is also the person slaying these members of the blood guard too.

Because if you are a witch, you have to have blood to perform your spells. And it can be your own blood or it can be other people's blood. And if you use someone else's blood, you have to have their permission. And if you don't have their permission, then it's kind of described as like a high because the magic is really powerful. But then you get like addicted to it and you got to have more of it. Yeah, it corrupts you. Yeah, it corrupts you. So yeah, so you're absolutely right, like, she knew, you know, who he was and what he was doing. She doesn't learn until later about the reasons behind what he's doing. Right. And then he keeps finding ways to excuse away the fact that she might be the Crimson Moth and the one that is helping these witches. Right.

And so the one caveat, though, is it does appear that Rune, because she has more clear facts upfront, she can humanize Gideon a little bit more. And I believe she tends to feel more empathy towards him. And so it's almost like her feelings tend to be more real because once he finds out she's a witch, yes, it's sort of implied that he's conflicted, but he still marches forward as the projected brute that he is. So, but again, as we were talking about, with the context, you can also understand why. Cause even though he knows that he's in love with Rune or that he loves Rune, he now feels twice betrayed and manipulated by two witches. And I mean, that would harden anybody.

Yeah, that's a really great point. So again, if you haven't read the book, Cressida is the one of the Roseblood sisters. She had a relationship with Gideon, I would say it was forced by all means and he was in it with her because he had to be. She was super manipulative and emotionally and I think probably even physically abusive. And now he is in a relationship with Rune and then finds out she's a witch. So he also again feels manipulated. So I think that's a really great point. So it's understandable that he probably thinks that Rune was just using him. Right. And none of it was real. Right. None of it was real. And as well, she believes towards the end too that, he was just using her and that they both feel like fools for believing. Which, I mean, there is some truth to that. Like at one point, they were both using each other to gain information and they caught feelings. Yep. Yep.

So did you have a favorite moment between the two of them? I don't know that I call it a favorite moment. I think it was more of a key moment after the witch attack explosion towards the end when Rune realizes like the level of feelings that she actually has for Gideon when she thinks that he might be dead and all the emotions that that sort of bubbles up. And, you know, she runs to his place, and they finally cross that threshold and sleep together. And in that moment, like he's revealing his true feelings for her too, and that they're all real and everything feels right in the world.

Then it comes crashing, then comes crashing down, yeah the very next morning when she overhears Gideon speaking to Harrow and Layla. It's a breakthrough moment kind of in both parts. It's like they have the breakthrough moment that they reveal their true feelings for one another. And then they have the breakthrough moment that realizes that like she discovers or believes she discovers who he really is, which then leads to him discovering who she really is because he goes to the house to apologize and lets himself in. And then that's when he discovers the casting room and the vial, and then like that moment was sort of the seed that led to everything else unfolding.

Yes. But. But. Don't forget that after she sleeps with him, she leaves. She goes to his brother Alex's house, who confesses to him, to her that he loves her. And asks her to marry him and she says yes. Yes. Right. But that's still like it all stems from that moment. Yes. was an avalanche of things that happened after this. But I think there are a lot of small cute moments. I love the fact that he made the dress for her. His parents were tailors and he creates this custom dress for her. And after like the first date to damn, I he's bringing out the big guns for reals right out of the gates.

So, there's that relationship. Were there any other relationships that stood out for you? Rune and Verity’s, I mean, despite ultimately discovering that that was all just a fallacy. But during the time I didn't realize that, thought her, their friendship was seemed really genuine. I liked their dynamic, kind of made me wish I had a close friend like that, though I hope that they didn't also double as like a cruel, deadly witch. Or do you? Or do I? Do I wish that?

I mean, I also felt for Alex in a different kind of way, I mean, he loved Rune so much, would do absolutely anything for her, but was always friend zoned. I mean, she really only saw him as, you know, a brother, essentially. But he also never said anything. He didn't, right. Totally. To his own fault. That's true. Though, as I was reading it, it did slightly take me back to my high school days when I was always the nice guy. Are you Alex? And never taken seriously as dating material. So I kind of felt for him a little bit. Yeah, mean, besides those two, I feel like those are really the only other ones that presented themselves. I mean, obviously Rune and Gideon, but I guess the relationship between Gideon and Alex kind of unfolds through the book too.

But I mean, what about you? Like what were some of your takeaways on the relationship dynamic? Yeah, I do think the relationship between Alex and Rune is really special. Although again, she's completely oblivious that he is in love with her, despite there being definite signs. Countless. And the relationship between her and Verity is weird. Obviously, Verity presents herself as willing to do anything to help Rune and her cause, but there were moments which we'll talk about that I questioned.

But I thought that the relationship between Alex and Gideon is very interesting because, you have, and this should have been foreshadowing, you have brothers who are working in two opposite directions against each other, yet Rune says Alex actually won't directly do anything to, you know, hurt his brother. Yeah, just like go against his cause. So you have that, but they're obviously working in, or for very different causes. So I thought that was really interesting. And in a what happened to cause that, is it just a deep love that Alex feels for Rune or is it something else? But there are moments where I'm like, this is this is really interesting. Like how our family dinners? No shit.

Yeah, I think to that point, don't think it, for Alex, I don't think it was just about Rune. I think it was part of the reason why he couldn't kill Cressida. That's just like not in his DNA or in his makeup. That despite what the Roseblood sisters did to his family, that he still couldn't pull the trigger. Yeah. He doesn't see that as the answer. Right. Right.

So speaking of people dying. Sacrifice plays a key role in the book. What do you think about the sacrifices the characters make, and what does the book suggest about the cost of power or loyalty? I'm not sure how to really answer this one. I don't think you can have one without the other. I don't think you can think power can corrupt, which we know happens in the book as well as in the real world. I think the possible cost of loyalty could be that, it could possibly blind you from other things. Like you're so deeply loyal to one cause or one meaning that you don't allow yourself to see the possibility of something else or the flip side of the coin or another color in the prism or whatever metaphor you want to use. Yeah, I don't know.

What are your thoughts on this question? I wasn't really sure how to answer this one. So I think that one part of it is the Roseblood sisters are blinded by power and that costs them a lot of things. It ultimately cost them the power and the loyalty of the people that they were leading, which led to this new republic. I think that the cost of loyalty for Gideon is that he feels obligated to hunt these witches down based on his past experiences and he cannot see through the fact that not every witch is like Cressida. And then I think that Alex is blindly loyal to Rune and blindly loyal to his brother Gideon also. And that ultimately cost him his life.

Yeah, that's true. Which is interesting because he's getting ready to leave with Rune. But also interesting because right before that, he basically proclaims himself as a witch sympathizer after he realizes Gideon catches Rune and is going to purge Rune. And he proclaims to himself, like, he's ready to die for, or with Rune. Right. But instead dies for Gideon, his brother, to protect his brother. Yeah. I don't know. I think that there's a lot of... There's a lot to unpack there. But there's a lot of impact. There's a lot.

And it gets at the main question is like sacrifice plays a key role. So we see Nan actually sacrificing herself for Rune to save Rune. Then we see Rune putting herself on the line to save these other witches because she thinks it's wrong. We see Alex sacrificing himself to help Rune and his loyalty to her. And then we also see Verity. It was not Verity sacrificing at all. The character formerly known as Verity. Which we think is because her sisters were witches also. Yeah, again, I think it just shows a layer of complexity that all of these characters had to, you know, navigate and deal with in the book.

Alright, let's talk about Cressida. What did you think of her character? And do you think that there's more to her story? We only really hear what Gideon tells us and as we've learned from Rune and Gideonm and their stories, like there are two sides. So we also know that there's Cressida's side, but do you think that there's any good in Cressida? Do you think maybe what everything Gideon says made up or do you think it's half-truths or are we gonna learn more about her that is also gonna have us in this morally gray area like we are with both of them?

Cressida, okay. Vicious, ruthless. Heartless even - is she maybe the heartless one in the heartless hunter instead of getting me? So I think it's interesting that it's released as Crimson Moth in the UK and Heartless Hunter here because Crimson Moth describes Rune. Yep, and Heartless Hunter, in my opinion describe Gideon. But you're right. I don't know. Does it describe Cressida? AKA Verity? Indeed, so many layers.

I believed Gideon story, especially after we meet the real Cressida at the end of the book and you do get a sense of how ruthless and brutal she is. You know, they talk early in the book about taking blood without permission and using it to cast spells will corrupt you. I mean, she's clearly been corrupted by that power, but we don't really know why or how it startedm or we don't learn any of her backstory. So I imagine that we will learn more about her origin in book two, at least I hope so, cause otherwise what you're left with right now is everything that Gideon shared to Rune leading up to that point was validated for me in that last scene when she was destroying the world.

And also presumably she's the one killing these blood guard members and using their blood to perform other magic. Right, because it was the only way she was casting herself as Verity, as Rune's friend through this whole time. They say in the book that that takes a substantial amount of blood to keep that sort of magic illusion up and that sort of thing.

So let's talk about that though, the twist. Were you completely thrown off by this twist that Verity is not who she said she is - Verity has actually been, or Cressida has been moonlighting as Verity. And if you had any clues, like what were they or what foreshadowing in the book really tipped you off to this? I would love to say that I totally pegged this one, but I definitely did not. I think there were cues, but I didn't let myself play them out too far, I guess might be a way to say that. And I definitely didn't pick up on anything until the party where they were going to purge Seraphine and they find Cressida's casting signature under the table. That's when I started to. And you knew that it was Cressida, you knew that it was Verity though at that point? No, no, no, no. I'm saying I didn't start to think about possibilities like that. Of Cressida being alive. Yeah, until that came up.

So then I started to think about all the different murders of the blood guard soldiers and the amount of blood, the handset of that they kept talking about the different levels of casting and what that took. The first thought I had that it might be possible that Cressida is projecting herself as someone else, I thought it could have been Harrow, Gideon's second in command - that would have been an interesting twist - because of how from the beginning, she kept pushing Gideon harder and harder to Rune. And as we learn more about Cressida, and her relationship with Gideon, it seemed like a plausible scenario that like she's toying with him even more by doing this. And so I thought it could have been her.

Yeah. That's a really good thought though, cause you're right. She keeps, because he is trying to... So when you are a witch, you cut yourself for blood, it leaves a casting scar. And so the way they're able to identify witches is to, they have these scars on them. And so, was like pushing him to get Rune naked, like check all of her, you know, to make sure that, he has done his due diligence. So, yeah, that's a really great thought.

So, I didn't really pick up on anything, but you read a lot more than me, like we established in the beginning of this episode, but I was like, you were sitting in the kitchen on the island, listening to the end of this book and I heard your reaction to the end. So, that's my reaction to Alex dying. Oooh okay. So I did not pick up right away that Cressida was Verity or Verity is Cressida. But Verity, where did she come from? Like we know about Alex. We know nothing really about Verity except that, you know, she is seemingly befriended Rune, came into her life. Rune gives her her hand me downs, so I think she has like a lower social status and her sisters were witches and she knows a lot about magic.

And she keeps saying that her sisters let her be in the room when they were doing their spells. And I thought that was fucking weird because yeah, that might be true. But if I'm in the room when someone's cooking, it doesn't make me a good chef. So Verity knows a lot about magic. Like she knows how to cast these spells. She's the one teaching Rune, who is the witch to do these things. So I did think that was really weird.

I honestly don't feel like I really knew until the moment the Rune walks into Verity's dorm or school or whatever and there's something weird about the place and then it just like clicked in place to me. I was like, it's Cressida, she's Cressida, this whole thing has been a farce. Like Verity is not who she said she is, which again, I knew I was like, yes, this is why she is actually a witch. Like there are no sisters. So I thought that was a really good twist. I don't think I picked up on it as soon as I probably should have. But I think that that's good. I love when I'm surprised by something. I love that I'm surprised and picked up at the same moment that you did that makes me feel like a better reader. Golf clap.

So one thing and maybe I should probably ask this earlier, but I really appreciated that there were these action packed moments in the book, which we've covered several of them. But then there's also these like really introspective moments through both the voice of Rune and Gideon. Do you feel like this balance worked well? Or do you wish there was like more of one or like more introspective storytelling or more action within it?

Yeah, I thought the balance and the pace between both characters was really well done. I thought that all the revealing of each of their backstories at certain moments was really well done. It didn't feel like too early or too late or too much or anything like that. It was just the right amount of peeling back the onion or, you know, adding the layers to these characters. We got what we needed when we needed to the story. Exactly. I do wish we would have got more about why Seraphine was such an important witch to save besides the, I mean, all she really says is like, was Nan's last thing to say. Like, go find Seraphine. She'll give you these answers. But I'm like, what was her connection with Nan? Like, just all that, their whole back, her whole backstory.

I also kind of wish we would have maybe got a little bit more about her parents or what role Rune's parents played in her upbringing. Well, because Nan raised her since she was like really little. Yeah, right. She never thought there was a possibility that she could be a witch because it's super unlikely that unless one of your parents show you're somewhere in your bloodline is a witch that you would be as well. But Muggles can have witches and wizards. I did think about Harry Potter. In this fantasy they can here too. So those are my two, think just learning more about why Seraphine is so important and maybe more about Rune's parents. What about you? Was there anything else you wanted more or less of?

No, I agree with you totally that we got what we needed when we needed it. In those introspective moments, I agree. Who is Seraphine? What's the story between Seraphine and Nan? Is there a connection between Nan and Seraphine and the Roseblood sisters? Yeah, same. What's going on? Like, there has to be more to the story there. What is Cressida's reasonings for picking out Rune? Because she obviously pursued her as Verity.

So what was her goal in this? Is it where she wanted to be or was something else going on that she had another plan that got, you know, changed because - remember Verity was trying to get her to court another man, a safer man, not Gideon. Was Cressida trying to come back for Gideon? And that's why she was against Rune courting Gideon. I didn't even make that connection. That's why Verity made the list or Cressida made the list of suitors for a Rune. That's true. I didn't think about that. That's a great point. Yes, exactly. I don't know. There was like, I guess, more of those slower introspective moments where we're like really learning more about these characters and what drives them, why they are like they are.

So in the book, we have a love triangle. Gideon knows that Alex, his brother has feelings for Rune that he never admits to. Gideon and Rune develop feelings for each other. And Rune is oblivious to the fact that Alex has feelings for her. She ends up saying yes to marry him though because she said, I can go be on, like essentially this other country where witches aren't hunted and they're allowed to live open and freely and we can be happy together. I can learn to develop feelings for him. So are you team Gideon or are you team Alex?

Why must there always be teams? Why? Why? Don't make me pick. I don't know what team I'm on. They both have their own, they both have their value. Like Alex is safe and comfortable. She can which can be implied as bad and boring kind of, but it also allows her to be herself. She doesn't have to pretend or be a different person or anything. So like there's draw, and there's value to that. But then Gideon is the dangerous one. He's the bad boy. He's more exciting, which tend to lead to, you know, more dynamic energy. Are you aligning yourself with Alex again? And your high school self? I think so. I'm the safe one. Come and go out a date with me. Team Gideon all the way!

Yeah. Plus also, there's really only one team left now. I mean, Alex is dead, so there's not really a choice. Is he dead? Well, we'll get to that. She says at the end of the book that like, she has this inherent need for him to hunt her. Like, that's, it's almost like that's part of her identity now, or she's growing into this identity as the Crimson Moth, and so, I don't know. I mean, I can guess by your reaction which team you are, but you want to, I said Team Gideon all the way. You did, all the way.

So this book was like an enemies-to-lovers. And I think the next book is going to be that. So it’s like enemies-to-lovers to enemies-to-lovers. Such a fucking ping-pong game. Just pick a side. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I guess if I had to pick, I'd probably say Gideon too. What? You were just, you were just - just because I'm Alex doesn't mean I don't want to be Gideon. That's true. That's true. And I married red head so - you want to not be the safe choice. So there's that answer.

Okay, so, in speaking of people who are maybe not dead in chapter 54, they mentioned that one of the forbidden acts of the Arcana spells is raising the dead and nothing in literature is accident. So with this in mind, do you think Alex is actually dead-dead or are we going to see him in the final book?

I think at first when that was mentioned, it was implied to mean Cressida. But then we learned that she's never dead in the first place because Alex never killed her. But that's where my mind was through most of it. As far as this component, I think he's dead. But do you think somebody else is going to come back from the dead? Well, I think he's dead. But I think Cressida could use that as leverage against Rune in the next book of like, I could bring your best friend back if you do XYZ for me or something like that. Maybe it's a ploy in that way. And we didn't really hear what happens to his body after he dies in her arms, and she breaks the city in half, and they go off on this ship. Like we don't really hear anything else. And so it is a plausible scenario that he could make a magical entrance again. That's my take.

The other, I think that's a possibility. I think the other possibility is that Nan comes back from the dead. And I say that because maybe Nan said, go to Seraphine to get the rest of the answers. And they knew that this was coming, that Cressida wasn't dead. And that's why Nan is like, give me up because I'm not really going to die, because I can be brought back from the dead. Interesting. And I'm picturing the ghoul in Aladdin where he's like, I can't raise people from the dead. I don't like doing it. Okay. That's a good theory. So I think that there's something there. I think that someone is going to become alive again. I don't know that that's for certain, but that's what I thought.

I think what you were saying about her using it as leverage. Yeah, that's interesting. I also think it's interesting that you thought it was meant to signal that Cressida could be brought back even though we find out she hasn't ever been dead. Maybe it's her sisters. Maybe she's going to bring back the other Roseblood queens. Yeah. I don't know. I think that that is intentional and that someone is going to come back. Yeah. I don't know who. That's why we love books. Yes.

Do you have any other final thoughts about the book? None that I don't think we haven't covered already. I'm definitely looking forward to the second one in this series a lot. Are you looking forward to this more or Onyx Storm more which come out around the same time? That's a good question. I'm gonna say this one, but I caveat that with because... It's the end? Well, that, and Iron Flame has been sitting on my nightstand for the last two and a half months with like a third of it left because I've been in this world. So, I feel like I'm just more present with this one right now. So I would say this one. That’s fair. I do also think that series is supposed to be five books, and this is two. So you're getting book three in that and this is like you get the ending. So I do think there is something to have it wrapped up. That's true. That's true. I'm also excited for a story to be wrapped up. I feel like I've been reading a lot of series lately for, not actually intentionally, and I don't get the conclusion. I have to read three, four, five books for that. I'm excited to have this just be two books and to have this little story wrapped up. I agree. Not everything needs to be 16 novels, or anyway. Nope. That's it. That's all I got. Alright.

Would you recommend this book to our listeners? Absolutely. And who would you recommend it to? Anyone with a pulse. With a pulse. Yeah. Yes. And I think, don't be thrown off by the young adult, new adult genre, I think with this book. I liked the level of intimacy and the level of romance in this kind of book. You like the romance? I liked this level of the romance. I liked it. I'll probably edit all that shit out and just say, don't be turned away by the fact that it's a young adult, new adult in-between thing. It's a great story. The witches piece isn't childish in the sense of like, witches and cauldrons and brews and stuff like that. It's just, feels very real and relatable. And so I think anyone could enjoy it. Yeah. And like you said, it feels like it's set in a real world that we live in with the exception of there is magic. I agree. I also would recommend this book to fantasy lovers, people who enjoy good character-driven books. Like I there's a lot of introspective moments. There's the enemies-to-lovers trope, which I love, but it does not end with them being lovers. So there's that.

Do you predict that they will at the end of the series? I won't hold you to it. I'll just be on record. I don't know because again, I think that there's some part of me that believes that Alex is going to come back and maybe we have a Gale and Peeta on our hands and she ends up with the safer choice. And maybe Gideon sacrifices himself because he loves Rune and he loves Alex. I won't be happy about that, but I'll understand it.

Alright, well with that, we wanted to remind everyone that the next two books in our lineup are Book Lovers by Emily Henry and The Boyfriend by Frieda McFadden. And don't forget that a free way to support our show is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple podcasts. And if you don't want to rate us, but you have a question or you have feedback on the show, you can always email us at booksandmakemyhusbandread@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you.

So I guess that's it. That is it. Wait for it. Another one in the books! Mic drop.

Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads. Hopefully it is. All right. Bye bye. Ciao. Bye bye.