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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
This is the Reinventing Church podcast. I'm Derek Sanford, pastor of Grace Church on the shores of Lake Erie in Pennsylvania, and we're chronicling our journey from a successful megachurch built on an attractional church growth model to a missional multiplication model where we're looking to empower every Christian to live out their calling in the world. So I'm here with my cohost, Danielle Hartland. What is up, Danielle?
Speaker 2:Hi. What is up is I think I need to develop some sort of pastor voice coming after you. I'm like, oh, hey. I'm Danielle. Did I
Speaker 1:turn it on?
Speaker 2:You did. Like, bah bah bah bah bah. It was great. It was good.
Speaker 1:Every pastor has one.
Speaker 2:They do. A raging voice. Yeah. But it's good. Yours is good.
Speaker 2:It's clear. It's not like that sad, whiny one that a lot of them do. You know?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Sorry. No offense. Yeah. You don't know you do it if you do it probably, but sorry. Hey.
Speaker 2:So I thought it might be fun to let people get to know you a little bit. Okay. You know, just Mhmm. You're not they're not gonna find you, like, shouting from the rafters anywhere. Like, they're not gonna learn stuff about you.
Speaker 2:So Right. You're generally pretty normal and quiet Okay. In the streets. So one of your favorite authors, theologians would be CS Lewis. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would say, yeah. Mhmm. And one of your favorite singers, I'm just kidding, is Taylor Swift. Not really. But I saw this church.
Speaker 2:We'll put it in the in the show notes. We'll put their name in the show notes. But I saw a church do this thing where they read, is this a CS Lewis quote or a Taylor Swift lyric? So I want you to play that game. It's real quick.
Speaker 2:So I'll read it, and you just tell me who I can't necessarily I didn't write down, like, what books and writings that came from, but you would probably know. So Well, I don't know. Well, Okay. So here we go. CS Lewis or Taylor's Taylor's Taylor's They're close.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That's what's ridiculous. Alright. Love anything, and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken.
Speaker 1:That's CS Lewis.
Speaker 2:That is. Yeah. This is a state of grace. This is a worthwhile fight.
Speaker 1:That's Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:It is Taylor Swift. Alright. I know. You're doing good.
Speaker 1:You're doing great. Percent.
Speaker 2:You're doing great. Okay. We learned the right steps to different dances. I know. Someone were like, wait a minute.
Speaker 1:Is Travis Kelce an outsider?
Speaker 2:He's not. He wouldn't say anything that Brooklyn. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's CS Lewis.
Speaker 2:It's Taylor.
Speaker 1:Oh, no.
Speaker 2:It's a close one.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was a close one.
Speaker 2:If you love deeply, you're going to get hurt badly, but it's still worth it.
Speaker 1:Oh, see that? So, yeah, they both kinda
Speaker 2:say that. They have very similar outlooks on life, the 2 of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's yes.
Speaker 2:It is. Yeah. Why love if it hurts so much? Mhmm. We love to know that we're not alone.
Speaker 2:It's embarrassing, honestly.
Speaker 1:I'm going with Clive.
Speaker 2:Yeah. CS Lewis.
Speaker 1:Alright. Good. Excellent.
Speaker 2:The love of knowledge is a kind of madness.
Speaker 1:That's Taylor.
Speaker 2:No. Oh, no. I know. I know. Things never happen the same way twice.
Speaker 2:This one isn't fair. I feel like a lot of people say this kind of thing. Yeah. But
Speaker 1:They might have both said it.
Speaker 2:They might have both.
Speaker 1:Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:No. Are you sleeping? In our history, across our great divide, there is glorious sunrise.
Speaker 1:Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:Yes. Clover blooms in the fields. Spring breaks loose. The time is near.
Speaker 1:That's CS.
Speaker 2:No. No. No. It's Taylor. I don't remember the song.
Speaker 2:It's flake from Evermore. So Oh
Speaker 1:my goodness.
Speaker 2:We're gonna get well, that's one way we'll go viral. Now we're in trouble. I said the wrong I said the wrong song. Well, how's your podcast podcast get popular? Danielle said the wrong Taylor Swift reference.
Speaker 1:And the Swift is near
Speaker 2:the blood. Okay. Couple more. Someday, you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's CS.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind.
Speaker 1:Oh, man. That sounds like CS, but I'm gonna go with Taylor.
Speaker 2:It's CS. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it? Yeah. Okay. Good.
Speaker 2:2 more. Old habits die screaming. That's like, I'm getting a shirt of that.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That's please tell me that's
Speaker 2:Taylor's. Yes. Okay. Good job. Last one.
Speaker 2:The pain I feel now is the happiness I had before.
Speaker 1:Oh, the pain I feel now. C s. Yeah. Okay. Good.
Speaker 2:They're
Speaker 1:they're claw.
Speaker 2:Good job. You did good. You only missed a couple.
Speaker 1:I know. That's pretty scary.
Speaker 2:I know. I love the game. I was like, this is great. They're come from the same club. There's one I wanna do with our staff where you hold a pool noodle and you hold them over a pool, and then you start a worship song.
Speaker 2:And if they can finish it, you let them otherwise, you, like, let them go in the pool. We're doing it. We're doing it.
Speaker 1:I saw a similar one recently that was, it was like the bible or, chat gpt.
Speaker 2:Oh, no.
Speaker 1:So they had put these they had just had it come up with, like, inspirational sayings.
Speaker 2:Oh, no.
Speaker 1:It was close.
Speaker 2:I thought you could do a sermon and see if people would notice.
Speaker 1:Oh, listen.
Speaker 2:That would be intense.
Speaker 1:Remember when I did this before when I did a fake sermon?
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:That was bad. Anyway, we better get into this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let's get it.
Speaker 1:Hey. So we're we're doing this, this podcast in 3 different sections, all of which we think will be helpful for church leaders and and pastors and anybody really kinda related to church leadership. And, so the first one you wanna explain this first one? Yeah.
Speaker 2:So this first one, it's called from the pastor's inbox. Uh-huh. And I'm excited to get in here. So this is just, emails that, Derek and maybe other pastors in our organization have received. And it's kind of a grouping of a bunch of different comments from similar emails.
Speaker 2:Right? So we don't We're not calling anyone. Yeah. We're not gonna that's not the point. Right.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna read the email and In fact,
Speaker 1:the reason we're choosing them is because they're helpful. Helpful.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1:So it's not like, hey. These people are, you know, wrong by sending these things. We're trying to say this was a good and, I mean, occasionally, we'll probably make fun of 1 or 2.
Speaker 2:But definitely have to.
Speaker 1:A lot of them are the reason we're talking about them was because they're helpful.
Speaker 2:And you have to craft an answer, and so, hopefully, that'll help somebody else. Yeah. Good. Alright. So here's, here's the first one.
Speaker 2:K. I'm not sure how to put my heart into words without being disrespectful.
Speaker 1:Well, that's always a
Speaker 2:That's We know. Yeah. We know you're not
Speaker 1:As a church leader, when it starts that way, you know here it comes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Buckle up. Go ahead. Israel, the apple of God's eye came under a very, horrific attack. Why has our leadership at grace, not called us to immediately intercede?
Speaker 2:I'm very confused and just don't understand. Do the bombs need to be falling in our neighborhoods? Does it need to be our wives and children being shot and burned to death? What is it gonna take? I'm bringing you tears from the Holy Spirit of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Do not harden our hearts. We need to pray before the bomb starts showing up on our soil.
Speaker 1:Yep. Intense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The it wasn't I mean, it was not disrespectful. It was just a little intense, but the feelings are
Speaker 1:Right. Right.
Speaker 2:Intense. I get that.
Speaker 1:Around this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And particular so there's a there's an America and Israel thing Right. And there's a church and Israel thing. And I think that, you know, as I was thinking about my response to this, or, you know, to this kinda grouping of emails or, questions, you know, I I'm really kinda coming at it from a church and and Israel thing. And, so the first thing that I acknowledged in this email that, was all of the ways in which we are encouraging our people to pray.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. We typically because we're a multisite church, we're spread out Mhmm. Very complex. We don't typically have a one single Right. Gathering of prayer that happens all the time, and that causes some people to think that we are not a praying church.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And my encouragement always is to that. We we want our groups that are meeting to be Yeah. Praying groups. And just because we don't have a centralized prayer meeting doesn't mean that we're not a praying church.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to the specific question of Israel, I think it's important to kind of parse out how do we get to the place where we think, that whatever happens to Israel must be kind of a priority in our, minds and hearts and the forefront of everything. And and, really, it it comes down to a couple of different things that I again, I think it's it's helpful to parse out, as we think about our response to this. So one of them is this idea, of of kinda there's a a group of people that kinda sees America as the new Israel. Right. So the new kind of apple of God's eye, and and therefore, we are tied intimately to whatever happens to Israel is almost like it's happening Mhmm.
Speaker 1:To us. And this goes way back to, like, the beginning of our country, the Puritans and, you know, the the I mean, it's it's wild when you read back through it. Like, some of the Puritans were referring to America as the new promised land.
Speaker 2:Oh. There was, like, lots of language about this.
Speaker 1:There was a a lot of claiming of the old testament promised land, passages to them and to this new country, even some of the forefathers when they were being asked to create a seal for the United States or whatever, they were falling back on, like, Moses parting the the Atlantic Ocean. Wow. You know what
Speaker 2:I mean? And it's like the Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like we're coming out of exile Yeah. From this to and sense. Pharaoh with a crown on, like the king of England kinda thing. And so there there was all of these ties to America and Israel, and so that is kinda deep in us.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:I also think it's a misreading of scripture.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I don't think we are the new, Israel.
Speaker 2:We just lost all our Taylor Swift. Oh, well. I tried. However Yeah. No.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There are
Speaker 1:the Christians and the church are the new are the people of God in the same way that Israel was the people of God. And I think that the where it becomes blurry is when we make that nationalistic
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:For sure. This country is the same as that country. So that's one level of it. Another, of it comes down to kind of a theological thing. By the way, I simplified this a lot in my response.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm describing kinda, I think, for for some pastors and church leaders, kind of some of the some of the things that we we'll need to wade through if we're gonna give an intelligent response to this is a a theological idea of dispensationalism. And so it's a fairly new theological construct is from the mid 1800 to the mid 1900 is when this came on the scene. And so the fact that we hold so tightly to it is a little weird when when we realize it's that
Speaker 2:recent. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But it's basically this idea. One of the main one of the main tenants of it is this clear distinction between God's timelines and God's methods. A lot of it has to do with end times, and that's where you get all of the very specific timelines. But one of the big, things about it is, is defining the church and Israel as 2 very separate entities.
Speaker 2:K.
Speaker 1:And so there was, like, the Israel age, there's the church age, and this idea is there's gonna be another Israel age, like, literally nationalistic. So when the Bible talks prophetically about Israel coming back or returning to God in the end times kinda thing, dispensationalists will say that that's the that it's actually the nation of Israel that is gonna literally come back to God during that time. And so this again Mhmm. This kind of fuels this idea that Israel is the apple of God's eye. There's they're always gonna have a clear place in God's story.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I tend to kind of view the Bible a little bit more, as as a whole that the that the people of God is kind of growing and changing over time, but there's always a people of God that it's not that clear of, like, this is this is the church and then this is Israel, but the the people of God are the true followers of God
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No matter what age. And so in my mind, Israel as a nation is not necessarily gonna come back to God in the end times, but Jesus is still gonna be the way. And so I think there's gonna be some sort of a revival, in Israel where people come to Jesus, but it's not gonna be the this national turning, back to God. Anyway, so that's another big thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I guess I would just say as a last thing, there is a verse in the Bible that says, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. This is, you know and so this is what a lot of Christians come. We should be we should be praying for Jerusalem, which is absolutely true. Yeah. What I wanna make the distinction of though is that we are never called to always take Israel's side no matter what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 1:That's good. Because God didn't even do that. Like, when God was mad at Israel, they they were not the apple of his own anymore. He was punishing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So so this idea that they can do whatever any atrocities
Speaker 2:that they will know in
Speaker 1:the world, and we just support everything that happens. Like, I don't think we're ever commanded to do that, and I don't think God even does that. Right. And so, you know, I think that's one of the things that we we need to be we need to be discerning about how we do this. Again, obviously, we should pray for these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That I don't want any of this to sound like I'm saying we shouldn't pray for it. But when the question comes, why don't we jump to pray for Israel immediately no matter what's happening with them? Well, it's not exactly that clear cut. I think like any other nation, we we would wanna pray when bad stuff is happening and pray that God would reign and pray that people would turn to him and those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:So, anyway Totally. That's the that's the, that's the Israel thing.
Speaker 2:Cool. Yeah. If you're a church leader and you wanna submit a question, maybe you've wrestled with, you haven't answered somebody yet, or maybe you did answer somebody and just wanna share it for the good of everybody, you can share it with us at, derekstanford.com. We'll keep it anonymous. If you send it and you did give an answer and you wanna send the answer, go ahead and do that.
Speaker 2:And this whole section, hopefully, will, have content from everybody. It'll be really, really great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It'd be helpful.
Speaker 2:Alright. So now we're moving into our reinventing church topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so I I was thinking today, this is the first episode, the first full episode that we would just kinda do a quick overview and and and share it like this, that these would be 5 mind shifting insights about reinventing church.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:So as you know, because you came through the process too, we we went through a year long process Mhmm. With these guys from, Clarity House, Dave and Shane, and we wanna give them shout outs as often as we can. They were incredible
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Incredibly helpful. And so a lot of these insights came through our our time with them as we were thinking and processing and planning for this shift. Mhmm. And so these are more kind of guiding principles
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That we're using that we're gonna talk a lot more specifically about as this podcast goes on. So
Speaker 2:I would say too just before you go on Yeah. Whether you you were to work with Clarity House or whatever, I think one principle we we've taken this from changes before, but get outside eyes Yeah. On what you're doing.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be Dave and Shane. It could be whoever, but just get some other eyes. If you're reinventing stuff, you need to hear from other people. So I'd I'd encourage you to do that.
Speaker 1:Yep. That's it's been very helpful. So 5, mind shifting insights about reinventing church. Okay? So here's the first one.
Speaker 1:The this this phrase that has become kind of a mantra that, the modern church is overinspired and undertrained. So what do you think about when you hear that phrase?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But and we've we've talked about this before too. You we can, right now, probably just start playing sermons that are online. You it will never end.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Like, just we can get all the content we need from the best thinkers, best speakers, and we're just like it's just like with any media. We're just like take you could just take it in.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Books, everything, podcasts, all the things, like Yeah. We're not lacking.
Speaker 1:And and then the question comes, but are we living
Speaker 2:Exactly. It
Speaker 1:out? Right. And it and it and the and that's the kinda tension point of this point is just going, okay. We can keep inspiring
Speaker 2:and keep
Speaker 1:putting out content and keep writing great worship songs and keep having people raise their hands when they come to worship. And it's can still be true that people don't actually know how to live this out in their real life. Mhmm. And so, you know, one of the things that we talked about during our journey with Dave and Shane was this idea of of shifting from people saying wow to people saying
Speaker 2:So clear.
Speaker 1:And so, like, when they come to one of our services, instead of going, wow. Look what they're doing. Mhmm. They're saying, I could do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so how how do we shift the way we do church to to be able to go we're actually helping people to live this out on a day to day basis. And then for that to happen, it's gonna take a shift from teaching and inspiring to training. Yeah. And so that's a shift that we're trying to make. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, you know, I think the way that that looks for us and, again, I know you've been really involved in this process. You can speak into it, but, you know, is really trying to create tools Mhmm. For people to use. And, you know, even thinking about how do we do things differently on on Sunday, how do we think of our church as a training center, not just a teaching center,
Speaker 2:or
Speaker 1:not just a worship center, or not just a children's ministry center, but but we're we're we're actually training people how to live the Christian life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think, you know, so one of the things that we've incorporated now on Sundays is, you know, maybe at the end of a of a sermon instead of just ending and praying and singing Mhmm. We're saying, hey. We're gonna introduce you to a tool Mhmm. That can help you kind of process through this. And so we just got done with a series on, toxic emotions, and we introduced this examine tool.
Speaker 1:It's an old tool, but but we kinda re re dusted it off and put some new and just said, here here's 4 questions to ask at the end of the day to help you just process through, you know, where did God show up in in your life during the day. So just incorporating those things where it's like, there's a tool here to help you actually live this out Mhmm. I think has been a big shift, and we're gonna be doing lots lots more. Tons. Yeah.
Speaker 2:When I think about the WADA thing, one thing that comes to my mind is how we and, again, this is not no one's doing anything wrong. But we try so hard to present so well on a Sunday that I think, unintentionally, we're causing people to just watch people sing or and people are participating, obviously, but you're you're not thinking, wow. I wonder if I could even get up on that stage. You're thinking, wow. I can't believe they're doing this.
Speaker 2:Wow. I can't believe what excellent this is. Of course, I will always be part of things, but what's the moment, yeah, where we can kind of take a little bit of that shine off and let people see that this could be a more communal experience. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 2:I'm excited to see how all that stuff shakes out. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And one of the silly little things that we've we've started to do more and more is, you know, like, even for the worship team Yeah. To come up out of the room. Yes. Right. Come just to walk.
Speaker 2:Come from behind the bosom. Magically appear.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We've all behind the glass.
Speaker 2:Listen. We have all done it.
Speaker 1:And we've all done it. We've done it for many years.
Speaker 2:Always. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But but I think that that picture, that visual image of people standing up from their seats
Speaker 2:from the congregation,
Speaker 1:walking up onto a stage, and picking up an instrument and playing it goes, oh Yeah. These are these aren't some paid professionals that just kinda come out of nowhere. These are our people.
Speaker 2:Oh, she just, like, set her Bible on the chair and got up and, like like yeah. No. It's such it feels like such a small tweak, but it's Yeah. It communicates so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So that's the first, insight is in the modern church is over inspired and undertrained. The second one is that every church should define discipleship locally.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And the this was, I don't know. All of these, I guess. It shouldn't seem like it should be so insightful, but it's like yeah. Yes. And Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think the big thing here is that we have this idea that this first of all, that discipleship is this big, unattainable
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Thing way out there.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But also that it's just these universal Mhmm. Principles that everyone should just do, and there's an element of truth to that. Sure. But one of the things as we've gone through this process that, that we walked through was kinda defining our what we call our local predicament. And the local predicament the the reason that we define that so we said, let's look at our region.
Speaker 1:What are some things that are true of our region? We kinda gave as the big banner over that that there are broken narratives
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That people are living out a a lesser story.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And we talked specifically about Erie, that Erie is very fractured. Yep. So that there's this siloing that happens from our social service agencies to our churches, to our neighborhoods, to racially, to ethnically, to so it's a fractured community. It's a, what what we called an ironically insecure
Speaker 2:That's my favorite one.
Speaker 1:Community. Yeah. Describe that.
Speaker 2:So Erie, historically has been labeled as, like, mistake on the lake or, you know, rust belt. Like, all these, like Mhmm. I mean, that's for more than Erie, but there's all these, like, kind of negative terms, like dreary, eerie, or, you know, whatever. And people really like, people have t shirts that say these things. Like, it's not and I think even personally, like, when I look back on the history of even my own family, like, the talent, I won't be super specific not to be awkward, but, like, the talent that I see in certain older family members and, like, other generations that just wasn't realized because they didn't feel like they were worth it or didn't feel like they should.
Speaker 2:I think it's almost like a spiritual like, a stronghold that we have in Erie of just, like, we have so much potential, but there's something, like, literally keeping a lid on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's how I interpret it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's this insecurity
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:About our community, about how and that, you know, you have the brain drain of Mhmm. Yep. Bright young talent, like, leaving because who would wanna stay? So there and so there's this insecurity. And we said it's ironic because Erie is an awesome
Speaker 2:It's an awesome place.
Speaker 1:It's an amazing place to
Speaker 2:live,
Speaker 1:amazing place to raise a family. We've got beautiful natural resources, the whole thing. So anyway By
Speaker 2:the way, I heard we're, like, top 25 for, like, entrepreneurs or something right now. Oh, really? Like, small to midsize cities. Wow. I know.
Speaker 2:It made me think, like, I wanna put I wanna do, like, a news clipping wall or something where we have, like
Speaker 1:Well, you know, USA Today just came out as Gary's the number one lake in the United States Cool. Which is mean, it's beautiful. Lake Tahoe is pretty good, though. But
Speaker 2:I mean, I understand. Fine. Lake without mountains.
Speaker 1:So ironically, insecure. And then we said the other thing was a change
Speaker 2:resistant. A 100%.
Speaker 1:And and so, like, Erie has always kinda stopped progress, and there's a million examples of it. Anyway but my point is we went through that process of what is our local predicament to then ask the question, what kind of disciple do we need to create that's going to affect that local predicament?
Speaker 2:Genius.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and so this idea that, yes, there are universal aspects to what it means to follow Jesus, but there are also very specific things to the community that you're in that that discipleship needs to to accommodate or play out in. Yeah. And, so that was huge for us. I mean, that
Speaker 2:that was changed the game.
Speaker 1:It did. And it's what led us to create this kind of dream disciple. Mhmm. Again, that we'll talk much more about these things. But, you know, I I would just say to other churches and church leaders, like, man, a really good basic, exercise to do.
Speaker 1:It's just like, what is our community? Yeah. What are those defining features of our our community? And then what kind of people do we need to produce Right. From our church that are gonna affect change in that kind of community?
Speaker 1:And so, anyway That's
Speaker 2:great.
Speaker 1:That was a big one. The, the third, mind shifting insight is that churches generally misuse their core values. And again good too. They're all
Speaker 2:good. Yeah. I'm just gonna be like, uh-huh. Yep. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:So and here's here's the 22 ways I think I can see churches misusing their core values. One is they either ignore them altogether, and that happens sometimes. Like, what are our core values? Like, you know, and people don't even know them. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Or or they do what we were doing, which is they use their core values to try to measure discipleship.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's not really what core values are for. Core values are are like kind of the rudder on the that keeps us going through north kind of thing. And, make sure that we don't veer off to the right or to the left and and kinda gives us the train tracks that we need to go on, whatever. I'm using mixing metaphor.
Speaker 2:Lot of lot of stuff going on here. Lots of
Speaker 1:travel metaphor.
Speaker 2:They'll stick with you. You're good. Travel metaphor.
Speaker 1:But, until we kinda put the work in to to develop this dream disciple thing, we had been using those core values to kinda do a lot of things. Just go, hey. Do do our people live up to these values and that that sort of thing? And so we the separation of those discipleship measurables
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And our core values was a very big step for us. And it'll and it led to what we're calling you know, we we're creating a new scorecard. And it gave us just that kinda clarity
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:To say what are we actually measuring.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So That's good. That's the third one. 4th, people are desperate to find their purpose in life. And this was a huge Yeah. And, again, it's not a new insight.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But, man, I think about today more than ever. Mhmm. There is a longing in people Mhmm. To find 2 things, their identity Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And their purpose. And until that kinda happen and and, you know, the question that we're asking, how can the church help with that? Because the church shouldn't be left out of that conversation.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:That is the that is the core of what we can provide. Mhmm. And so we we we're talking a lot about really the two things we're changing are the scorecard and the finish line. Mhmm. And the finish line is that we're extending the finish line of discipleship outside the walls of the church Yeah.
Speaker 1:To include what are our people called to do where they live, work, learn, and play.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so this is gonna be kind of the cornerstone of our of our new vision.
Speaker 2:And I I like too how because sometimes the church at large can kinda chase these things, like purpose or, like, buzzwords. You know? But this calling thing for me, I think, is appropriately placed under this discipleship umbrella. Mhmm. And I think it's gonna have a different flavor.
Speaker 2:It's not gonna just be this, like, flash in the pan, like I don't wanna say any names of things, but, like, something that people just get, like, a fad about. This is, like these are, like, core things that god built into us that we should realize to live out what he wants us to do on this earth. Yeah. So Yeah. I I'm excited that it's kind of in a it's in an it's nested in the right place, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's
Speaker 2:good. Just this project. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:That's good. Yeah. And what we're really trying to get at, and we're writing some curriculum and stuff around this, but what we're really trying to get at is, like, trying to get literally down to a couple words.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What
Speaker 1:are what are a couple words that that describe who God made you to be on this earth that will follow you the rest of your life no matter whether you're at home or you're at work or so it's not it's we're not coming at it to say, I'm called to be an insurance agent or whatever. It's not an occupation. It's not a it's this thing that kinda transcends all of that that says, here's what I bring to the world Yeah. Because of who God made me to be and and where he's placed and positioned me. And now I my job is to live out that thing no matter what environment I find myself in.
Speaker 1:So I'm really excited about that. That that's gonna be like a huge we're actually piloting some classes this fall and and stuff around that, which is gonna be super fun. Alright. The last one, the last mind shifting insight about reinventing church, and this has to do more with change in general, but that people's experience of church is tied to a strict but unwritten social contract.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So, again, we're finding this out.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And we're we're gonna find it out more and more Yeah. As we go that when people come to a church, there is an expectation in their mind that says, this is what the church provides me
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And this is what I provide the church. This is not written down anywhere. This is not a signed document. This is just in everybody's mind. There is that social contract.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And when here's the point. When you start messing with that
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It can be disruptive.
Speaker 2:Absolutely disruptive. Yes.
Speaker 1:So, you know, I think just, when I heard it described that way, it something went off in my brain going, this is why change is hard in the church Yeah. Because of this unwritten social contract.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:People aren't just here because, you know, hey. Whatever you guys say, we're fine.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It they're like, you know, here's what the church does for me, and here's what I do for and that can be informed by all kind of things Yeah. Good or bad.
Speaker 2:Every person in a row down would have a commitment. One. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. So, you know, I think about things like when we this last Easter
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Instead of doing the big Easter egg hunt at the church Mhmm. Passed out plastic Easter eggs Mhmm. And a little plan and said, do an Easter egg hunt in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That broke the social contract for some people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure did.
Speaker 1:And they said, no. No. No. This is what the church does. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And we're saying, no. We're actually reorienting Mhmm. From a people come to us Mhmm. Till we go to them Mhmm. Kind of mentality.
Speaker 1:This is one very little way that we're gonna start to do that. And, again, any kind of little changes like that Mhmm. Begin to break that contract. And it and it I think it pushes us to be more much more clear about the whys.
Speaker 2:Yes. That's what I was gonna say. I hope
Speaker 1:we
Speaker 2:can be helpful with that, like Yeah. Putting really good language around things, really good, yeah, why behind because yeah. I'm losing my words while I'm trying to explain words. So that works.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Alright. So, let's move into this last, little chapter of the podcast and talk about, something that happened this week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:K?
Speaker 2:K.
Speaker 1:So, you know, we're having lots of conversations.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We just had a baptism by
Speaker 2:the way. Did. And that's a yeah. That could be a learning maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We yeah. We haven't done a so we haven't done a beach baptism. Again, we're on the shores of Lake Erie, so, duh, of course, you would. But we haven't done one since before COVID.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't even remember the last year we did it, but, just kinda fell out because of that. And then, you know, I think this is part of the learnings. As your church approaches certain sizes, things you used to do seem can seem more daunting or inappropriate because of the number of people that you know, you show up at a beach with, like, 50 people with a guitar to baptize 2 people. Great. Awesome experience for people.
Speaker 2:You try to descend on a beach with 800 people and organize that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It becomes a different kind of experience. Right? So we were just evaluating it, and it went really well. It was awesome. We ended up baptizing almost a 100 people, at the beach.
Speaker 2:We were expecting like around 90. So we got some, like, spontaneous in the moment. And, one of the things that I just I'm really proud of us. We really looked at what it what is this gonna be? What is this really gonna be?
Speaker 2:We asked the right questions. We said, yeah. You're bringing guests. How many guests are you gonna bring? You know, we we really, like, thought it through.
Speaker 2:And I think it was Marcus Buckingham at the summit recently. He just was drilling in this idea of building love in. Mhmm. And one of the ways we did that so we're taking kind of like a large scale event out into the public. We're throwing up all the filters in the brainstorming meeting.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, oh, don't be weird. Don't hand anything out. Don't sing. Don't let's just, like, get in there doing it out kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Not to make it not but to make it special for the people that were there and don't kinda worry about anyone else in a way. And, of course, that's never how it works. People are asking tons of questions the whole time who aren't with us and a lot of beautiful stories coming out of that. But one of the ways that the team built love in was how they and for me as like a, let's make it efficient. Let's not make it awkward.
Speaker 2:You know? I was worried, to be a 100% honest. But to watch their plan was splitting up the 90 people into 2 groups, and then they're walking them out to the baptizers 2 by 2. And I'm thinking, just have them walk out there. You know?
Speaker 2:What what's the big deal? You know? But on the walk, they're walking with 1 person. They're walking with, like, one site pastor team member or staff member, whatever it might be. They're learning a couple things about them that they weren't gonna learn otherwise.
Speaker 2:And they're able to say to whoever's baptizing them, this is Mary. She's getting baptized because whatever. And so there's this really just lovely moment, and they they're not as we're reflecting on it, it felt fast. The whole experience felt quick. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But to them in the water, they were saying it felt so personal, so beautiful. They weren't, like, slamming people in the water, like, trying to make this, like, a suddenly line happen. Yeah. And so I just thought, you know, then those people are gonna go from that, and they're gonna have not only their own story to tell, but just a feeling we were able to, like, make them feel seen
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In a sea of hundreds of people. And so those are the things, like, as we talk about this missional reorientation, what are the things where we're building in these what are the things we're building into experiences that people can take with them as they're interacting with people? So I I just thought it was beautiful experience altogether, but to hear those the stories that are coming out, it's really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I love that. And I, you know, I think as we as we just think about kind of principleizing that Right.
Speaker 1:It is it is I I love the phrase building love in Mhmm. You know, and and I think that's a good question for us to always ask.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Every church leader is, like, these events that we do or these initiatives that we start or whatever the programs that we pull off or groups that we have Yeah. Is, like, how are we building love in that people can be experiencing the love of God? I think it's a great lesson and a great a great spot to end.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. Great.
Speaker 1:Thanks. Hey, guys. If you wanna follow along, please, like and share this podcast if it was helpful to you, especially to other church leaders that you might know of that you think would benefit from these conversations, and we're gonna have lots more. You can also follow along with a blog and an email list and and some other lots of resources and tools over at derek Sanford.com. Thank you so much for, for tuning in, and we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 2:Okay. See you.