Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This is your go-to podcast for all things marketing, branding, and customer experience. We’re bringing you honest and fun conversations with bite-sized insights. Hosted by BrightSign’s CMO Brian Rowley and Head of Integrated Marketing Laura Smith, you’ll hear from industry pros, creatives, and innovators about what’s actually working in today’s evolving, digital-first world. No fluff — just real insights on how brands are connecting with audiences and driving growth. Tune in for fresh ideas, big thinking, and all the tips you need to take your marketing game to the next level.
And I think that's what people crave when everything is fake now. Everything is fake. Not only is everything fake, but we've completely sensory deprived, like, four of our five senses.
Laura Smith:Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:Marketers have never had more ways to communicate with customers. Between email, text messages, social media, AI content, and new automated platforms every day, we're communicating constantly. But are customers actually feeling more connected? Today, we're talking about something that almost feels counterintuitive in an AI driven world, slowing down enough to make interactions feel personal again. Sometimes the things that leave the biggest impression are the ones that simply show someone they mattered enough to receive a little extra attention.
Brian Rowley:Before we bring in today's guest, let's talk about something every marketer and every consumer can relate to. Every day we are constantly flooded with messages competing for our attention. So let's be honest for a second. What's, Laura, the first thing you instinctively ignore or delete when it comes to email?
Laura Smith:Well, I'm gonna say from a marketing perspective, the first thing I'm deleting are those LinkedIn sales messages. Yeah. Those are they they scream to me, they're selling me something. And really, it's you know, I I because of that, I've so much more spent time filtering who I'm accepting because if I feel like they're just gonna come up with you know, they're gonna they wanna connect with me, but really they wanna just sell me something. So that is definitely something that I just see in my inbox, and I don't even it's very rare I respond to them.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I I would agree. I would say the other thing though, and this is terrible because this is what we do every day for work, but the marketing emails as well. I'm just like, not today. Like, there's just there's too much stuff going on that that's just not gonna get my attention.
Laura Smith:I I I would agree with that in the sense that, in my personal email, I go through I'm I mean, you wake up to, I don't know, 60 emails. Right? So I definitely go through, weed through a good amount of them. But the ones that I'm like, it's timely, like I actually need to buy something that they sell. I'll save those ones.
Laura Smith:So it's not like I'm just going like full delete, but I'd I'm you know, I would say 70% of them I'm deleting right away. But I am keeping the ones that are relevant for me in that time.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I can always tell when Joe's been out shopping because Joe will come in and he'll be I'll all of a sudden get this flu of marketing emails. And I was like, did you use my email address? Like, why not your own? Like, what are you doing?
Brian Rowley:Like, I don't even understand.
Laura Smith:But the other thing I always delete, and I think it's because there's so many robocalling, but are voicemails. Like, you know, like people don't leave voicemails. You leave me voicemails sometimes. I have
Brian Rowley:to listen ignore mine.
Laura Smith:I have to listen to those ones. But the other ones, I feel like it's like, don't leave me a message. Like, text me. I mean, now you could read your messages too, so it's easier to filter them out. But, yeah, like, voicemails, you know, my parents still leave me voicemails.
Laura Smith:But, I'm training them to just just text. It's much easier because I will respond to those personal re those personal texts.
Brian Rowley:Actually, really, it's it's interesting because unsolicited outreach for me is just something that always it just raises all sorts of flags and I don't respond to a lot of it just because to your point, there's so much of it. But I guess on the flip side of that, is there anything that you actually almost always open?
Laura Smith:I mean, an email from a person that I have a relationship with or I recognize the name.
Brian Rowley:Okay.
Laura Smith:You know, like, I don't know. It's hard. It's but they're not selling me something normally. It's it's there's a relationship there. So I guess, like I think about my personal email.
Laura Smith:I'm not talking about work. Work, I have obviously, look at every email. But I think if the I wanna say it's, like, almost like an authentic one to one email. You read those. And maybe because, you know, I have a kid in sports, I have a kid in school, I have you know, I don't know if some people in my network may be reaching out that way versus LinkedIn.
Laura Smith:So, yeah, I would say that, but that's not feels very marketing esque. It just feels like, no, I'm gonna pay attention when I recognize a name and they're communicating with me.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. That's fair.
Laura Smith:How about you?
Brian Rowley:I mean, I I respond to emails. Emails are the things that I I I open. I mean, a lot of the other things that you get, I just I mean, like, it just it it becomes noise in this world like that we've got so much going on that. I mean, I guess if someone's really creative in the way that they approach something, then I'll pay attention to that. But I mean, there's very there's very little to to be honest with you.
Brian Rowley:That really is something that I'm like, I'll make a minute and I'll double I'll see what this is all about. But I do respond to emails for sure.
Laura Smith:That was interesting because I just it's timely that I just got an email yesterday that was it a person's name I did not recognize. It was to my work email. But it was very personalized and relevant coming out of Infocom that I'm like, wait a minute. Did I meet this person? Because we met a lot of people, and a lot of people, like, got my information and so, and people I gave my information to, you know, proactively.
Laura Smith:So it was something that I'm like, oh, this is very creative. Like, he did a really good job of catching my attention, but delete because he's trying to sell me something I don't need. So but it caught my attention.
Brian Rowley:I was gonna say kudos for catching the attention. Right? Because out of everything I mean, you obviously get a ton of email. There's I mean, with your role here within within BrightSign, I mean, there's constantly people that want just five minutes of your time. So the fact that he was able to actually at least get your attention is is actually is interesting.
Laura Smith:And I could have told him that as a marketer, but I didn't. Move on to the next one. Too busy over here. But anyway, enough about us. Let's dive in.
Laura Smith:So our guest today has spent more than two decades thinking about how people communicate. He started his career in digital messaging, watching businesses embrace text messaging, email, and automation as new ways to connect with customers. But over time, he noticed that as communication became faster, it often became less meaningful. Today, he helps organizations rethink customer relationships by bringing a human touch back into their marketing. Please welcome David Wachs, founder and CEO of Handwrytten.
Laura Smith:Welcome, David.
Brian Rowley:Hey, David. Thank you.
David Wachs:Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. And and it was refreshing to hear a different intro than the one I typically provide people. So thank you so much.
Brian Rowley:We're full of surprises, David. Just wait.
Laura Smith:But David, did I pronounce your last name right? I forgot to ask I did. Okay. Great. Yeah.
Laura Smith:Okay. I used AI to help me with that, you know, because that's what AI can do.
David Wachs:That's what AI AI is just absolutely bonkers these days. I'll be the first to admit.
Laura Smith:So welcome. So, okay. So you've spent your career helping businesses communicate from text messaging to handwritten notes. What made you believe marketers needed to do something different?
David Wachs:So, yeah. So over two decades, in twenty two years ago, in 2004, I started a text messaging company and we actually got pretty big. This was before the iPhone. And we were sending a million texts a day just for like one brand, like Abercrombie and Fitch, and it was all opt in. It wasn't spam.
David Wachs:But I realized while we were sending a million texts a day, everybody felt like they were getting a million texts a day and it was just noise. It did work. I mean, Tropical Smoothie had lines out the door every time we sent a blast for them, but I just realized that this is gonna hit a saturation point. So before it did, I sold that company and when I sold the company, I wanted to thank my employees and my customers for sticking with me through all those tough years. And I wanted to do something personal, so I sat down with pen and paper and I wrote them handwritten notes.
David Wachs:And after about number eight, my hand cramped. I mean, all the stereotypical stuff. My hand cramped, I ran out of stamps. Screwed up too many notes so I didn't have any stationary left. And I really liked my stationary.
David Wachs:I bought it from moo.com. I was very proud of it. But all that kind of made me realize there has to be a better way. And I wanted to send handwritten notes. So I figured if I, the time, the 30 kid wanted to get a different medium, other people probably did too.
David Wachs:And that was the extent of my market research. So I got a tremendous response from the notes I sent to employees and clients. A lot of the clients called me back thanking me and I realized this could be a thing if we could automate handwritten notes and make it as easy or easier than sending an email. But now that I actually have a company on it, we have done the research and we surveyed. We've done it twice now.
David Wachs:We did it once, I believe during, it was 2003 and then we did it again in, sorry, 2023 and we did it again 2025, a survey of 2,000 consumers and we asked them how they like to interact with brands and some pretty open ended questions like what forms of communication feel personal and which ones are annoying, etcetera. And the number one most personal form of communication is actually phone calls. But phone calls also, to your point, runs the risk of feeling the most annoying, of being the most annoying because phone calls come at a time that's convenient to the caller, not the callee. But the number two, kind of on my hunch, was handwritten notes. They're very personal and they do not run the risk of being annoying.
David Wachs:So if you're trying to walk that line, it's a great thing. And then also they have the sticking power of after, you know, when you get a handwritten note, not only do they get read, they get kept, they get put on display. So, you know, that's kind of why I did it. I just kind of, for better or worse, I started the business on a hunch. I did zero market research.
David Wachs:It was just off what I thought would be useful. At the time, when I thought of the business, there were no competitors, but I had a two year earn out with the company that bought us, so I couldn't do anything for two years. And in that time, a company sprouted up. So I thought, well, at least there's some it's kind of good to have competitors because at least other people think it's a good idea too. That company has since gone out of business, but there's others in this space.
David Wachs:So it's matured into an ecosystem of a half dozen companies doing what we do now.
Brian Rowley:Yeah, I would say when when we first had this conversation come up, and I think I talked to you about this when we were sort of doing our prep. When I when we first had reaction to it was really in today, like, we're still doing handwritten because I thought immediately my head sort of went to the space of we're all so busy. And, you know, is this really an effective way for us to get that communication out? But I think it also speaks volumes to the, hey, approach of, I've taken the time to think enough to rather than just, you know, quickly shoot an email to you to actually do something that actually means something. And to your point, is is, you know, that personalization side to things, I think it it makes a lot of sense.
Brian Rowley:It really does.
David Wachs:Well, you know, it's it's not for everything. Like after, you know, you don't wanna send your shipping alerts via handwritten note because it will get their way after the shipment itself. But when I ran my last company and then sold it to this marketing firm, I became the head of messaging, basically. And I was deep on this thought of preference center and a multichannel messaging strategy, which everybody should do, obviously. And handwritten notes, I truly think, should be one of the many forms of communication you use, but it needs to be in there if you're trying to cultivate deeper relationships with your customers.
David Wachs:So is it for everything? Absolutely not. We're typically talking four touch points a year. You don't want to overdo it and you don't want to underdo it no more. But four touch points a year is kind of golden.
David Wachs:And you say personalized. I think what it shows is personal attention. Everybody these days has tons of personalization. Every website you log into is personal. Every email you get is personalized.
David Wachs:But what you don't have is personal attention because everything just is mass personalized. So what a handwritten note does, whether it's real or, for lack of a better term, phony by us, is it creates that impression that you're doing something and spending your brain power thinking of one person. And that doesn't have to be a handwritten note. That could be one of those video emails where you record a message and say, hey, Brian, I was thinking about you. Or it could be picking up the phone or showing up in person or having an event.
David Wachs:There's a lot of ways to create that personal attention, but that's what people crave. You know? It's like when you walk into a meeting and you take your cell phone and you place it face down on the table, you're saying, whoops, as I dropped the cell phone on my laptop. You're saying that, you know, that time is yours. And that's, you know, a handwritten note typically takes five minutes to write or three you know, four to five minutes to write.
David Wachs:That four to five minutes, I'm thinking about you and only you because if I try to do something else, I'm gonna screw up the note. And I think that's what people crave when everything is fake now. Everything is fake. Not only is everything fake, but we've completely sensory deprived, like, four of our five senses. All we care about is sight.
David Wachs:You know? Have no photo albums. We have no record collections. Everything is digital. So when you receive something in the mail and you can feel it, it does seem to make a difference.
Laura Smith:But and one thing is, you know, because obviously and some people may not know really how handwritten works, but obviously there is this digital and this technology side of it. Right? It's not just, you know, you're not just mailing out cardstock and making people write. So I think there's this right? There's this connection to in its digital world, human connection can still exist, right?
Laura Smith:And how do you build that? And so maybe you could talk a little bit about how when you thought about how to make people's lives easier, like in a B2B environment, for instance, B2C, guess. But someone's trying to thank somebody, but there's not they don't have the materials to do it. So, like, how do you know, you how do you think about combining those two worlds of digital and and Yeah.
David Wachs:And when I tell people what we do, I mean, if if they don't already have the inkling of what we do, their immediate impression is yuck, gross, barf, you know, fake handwritten That wasn't my reaction.
Brian Rowley:I promise you that. It was just No.
David Wachs:But it's look, I'm I'm with you. I mean, God, my Instagram, you know, that's the people who like it, like it, put the little heart on it, but then the people who don't like it, write all sorts of fun things in the comments. So, yeah, what we do is we take your intent, your personal intent, and we automate the logistics behind it. And we do that through a fleet of 200 plus robots that we built in our facility in Tempe, Arizona. They all hold real pens and write your note out.
David Wachs:We then stuff it in an envelope, write out the envelope, stamp it, and mail it all within two business days. And we can include gift cards and we're starting to mail cookies with it now so little gifts can go with those handwritten notes. Why robots and not people? So if you were to travel back in time to the 1960s and you wrote to the head of TWA Airlines or Pan AM or something complaining or praising, you would get a note back signed by the CEO of that airline, but I'm willing to bet you I wasn't actually signed by them. It was probably signed by their secretary.
David Wachs:Or if you donate to a major cause that Handwritten's not involved in, you might get a handwritten note back, but I guarantee you that handwritten note was written by a fleet of college students working for pizza in a big room. So what I think is what we do using robotics is more consistent, not meaning every note looks the same, it absolutely doesn't, but at least it's in the style the brand wants or the nonprofit wants. It's much, much less risky, meaning there's not gonna be any pizza drippings on that note. Every word is gonna be spelled the right way. It's not gonna be super messy.
David Wachs:And you can actually record what every note says for compliance purposes. It's gonna be face safer or faster and it's gonna be less error prominent in other way, which is misstuffing. When we started the company, we'd write the note, write the envelope, stuff them together, off it goes. And that would be a person job doing that. Now we're at a point scale wise where that's impossible, which is a good thing because that hand stuffing has been replaced by an exacting process of robots that stuff the envelope for you and make sure that every note is in the right envelope.
David Wachs:We actually even now measure the thickness of that envelope to know if there's been two cards stuffed in. Which is, you know, you're talking about a couple parts of a millimeter thickness different, but we had an issue where two cards got misstuffed in an envelope, so now we do that too. So we think automating it is the best way for brands and nonprofits to keep that impression because if you don't automate it, you don't do it. Plain and simple. You want to send, you're a luxury brand and you've got thousands of customers.
David Wachs:How are you supposed to sit down and send thousands of notes to your thousands or tens of thousands of customers? What you might do like a perfume brand did and a European perfume brand, they had their store clerks do it. But guess what? If you walk into that store and you say, how many of those notes did you actually write out? They'll say none because I'm too busy trying to do my merchandising and dealing with clients and all the rest.
David Wachs:So the only way to ensure it gets done and that your contacts get the recognition they deserve is through an automation system like ours. Long answer to a short question, but that's
Brian Rowley:I think part to that that's really interesting though is like, why does it even matter? Like whether it's robots doing it or someone doing it. I mean, I think the point of it is, again, someone made a conscious decision to make an effort that the outreach was important. It's it's kind of like we get into this conversation all the time around AI driven content or creative or any of that stuff. And it's like, why does it matter?
Brian Rowley:Like, as long as it long feels authentic and real, then why do we care where it originated from? And I think to your point, no one for all these years for these major brands or for anybody has been sitting there actually writing those things out. Someone on the team has been doing it and yes, there's robots now that are doing it for more efficiency. And for a lot of different reasons, but you know, people used to build cars, now there's robots building cars. Like, I mean, it's just it's the same type of concept.
Brian Rowley:I don't think it matters. I think the point of this is, is the company exists to be able to create that touch point that actually means something to an end user. And I think that's the part that's actually really valuable.
David Wachs:And it's also quite frankly, balancing budgets and you might be able to accomplish the same thing if you send somebody one of those cards. I think we talked about this on our prep call. One of those cards that you open up and there's a video screen in it. But you know, those, and then you open up the card and you watch a video or don't watch the video, but that video screen is very expensive. I'm willing to bet it's a lot more than a $2 card in the mail.
David Wachs:So you can kind of create the same impression at a much lower price point by doing something simple. And everybody always thinks they need to do the craziest whiz bang thing, but sometimes it might be a clearer message if you just have somebody sit down and write it or have a robot sit down and write it. When I got one of those video cards, I just thought, man, this must be very expensive. So whatever this brain is trying to sell me must make huge margin. And then I also, because I'm a geek, I mean, I build robots for a living.
David Wachs:I wanted to know how the dang thing worked and I wanted to just cut it open and see all the, you know, so it's just I think everybody's always searching for the craziest way to get in front of somebody, but sometimes it's a very simple, you know, just go the old fashioned route, have them send them a handwritten note.
Laura Smith:And do you think that with the world that we live in with AI, do you think that people actually are craving more of this human connection and finding it more valuable just because it's something different and unexpected and people do miss the human connection? So do you feel like that, like, those two things kind of working together?
David Wachs:Absolutely. I I think this is yes, AI has accelerated it, but it's been here for a long time. During COVID, we work with a flat pack furniture company that mails furniture. And when you call into their customer service line, afterwards you get a handwritten note saying, We're so glad we were able to resolve your concern or whatever. People would call in crying.
David Wachs:Now, saying, It was so nice to get that handwritten note from you. Crying. I think a lot of that is COVID. People were so isolated they thought any sort of outreach was just, you know, but I think that just kind of highlights, there is an innate loneliness or an innate need for outreach. You're not going to cry over it unless you're in the middle of a pandemic, but there is that need there and it's just magnified by a pandemic.
David Wachs:We have a piano tuner. We work with businesses. We do a lot with veterinarian practices and nonprofits and ecom brands and all the rest, but we have a very small piano tuner in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. After tuning your piano, he doesn't have to be in your home for a year, but he does send you a handwritten note thanking for the opportunity to be in your home. When he returns to your home a year later, that handwritten note is often standing up on the piano.
David Wachs:So not only was it open and read, but it was put on display for a year on the most prized possession in the home on a space typically reserved for family photos and graduation announcements. I mean, clearly people are craving this type of communication. They wouldn't do that otherwise. And that space, you know, can't buy that space. But then, you know, thanks to AI, the amount of spam, email spam I get has just probably quadrupled.
David Wachs:And then you add in all these other texts, these cold email platforms that are, they try to justify it, but it's a spam platform. So all these systems that are out there trying to send you an email and then not only if you don't respond, they send you another one and another one, right? So it just compounds. I think people have really gotten callous to that and they're looking to communicate in deeper ways and get away from the noise a bit.
Brian Rowley:But admittedly, you actually acknowledge that handwritten communication isn't the answer to sort of every marketing challenge that's out there, right? So where does it have its biggest impact and quite honestly, where isn't it the right solution?
David Wachs:Yeah, I think when you look at your sales dashboard at your company, it's all the whiz bang, razzle dazzle goes into acquiring a new client. But what people don't see is the silent killer of their business is their retention rate and the leaky bucket of that business and the second and third sale drop off. So they're out there prospecting, but what's really happening is their clients that they do have are falling through the bottom. I would say handwritten notes are great for keeping those clients. They're not as great on the prospecting side.
David Wachs:But there's a lot of tools on the prospecting side. So I would say, you know, use handwritten notes to retain your existing business. We are a thank you business. You know, thank you and birthday cards and holiday cards. But, you know, our business is to show appreciation that Laura Smith and Brian took their time to choose this product or service or whatever or nonprofit out of all the others, they chose us and you're thanking them.
David Wachs:Just that act of a genuine thank you is a huge surprise. Is a survey of nonprofits, this impact research survey, and people were asked why they don't re donate to a non profit. The re donation rate is sub 50%. And the number one reason people don't re donate to a non profit is they say they weren't thanked. I think that's not true.
David Wachs:I think everybody's thanked. You receive an email right away saying thank you. People don't feel thanked. And when you don't feel thanked, you're not thanked. So handwritten is a great way to make people feel thanked.
David Wachs:Or handwritten notes, I should say, are a great way to help make people feel thanked. And then we do So that's number one. We do birthday cards if possible, if you have their birth date. Holiday cards are a great touch point. Although I will say they kind of fall into the noise of everybody else's holiday card.
David Wachs:So if you want to do that, do a Thanksgiving card, do a Valentine's Day card. There's ways around it, but that is a noisy time of year. And then we say maybe one other thing. So that could be an offer. That could be an invitation.
David Wachs:Those are kind of the big ones. So like for car dealerships, that's a free oil change or time to come in and trade in or trade up your car. There are other things you can do with that additional touchpoint. But handwritten notes are best when you know your client, not for blind outreach. It's also not the cheapest form of communication.
David Wachs:I mean, stamps and postcards and handwritten notes are expensive. So it's best when have that existing relationship you're trying to retain.
Brian Rowley:Only expensive if it doesn't return, right? Because think about the amount of time that people spend on email platforms and creating and hiring people to do those type those types of things. So it's not that that's not without expense as well. I think anything, I mean, to your point earlier in the conversation, it is a touch point. It is one way to be able to do.
Brian Rowley:It's not the end all be all and wouldn't be the only way that you would approach a customer, but it is one effective tool to be able to use.
Laura Smith:I mean, think about all the wining and dining that some sales teams are doing, you know? And so I think that's not to say they won't still do that, but this is is just another because that is in person and you're able to engage and have relationships and conversations. Well, if you're on that level and that you're having that two times a year, then those cards are going to even like, you continue to foster that relationship. So it feels like it's just part of that inexpensive as compared to something like dinner or a ballgame in a in a suite or whatever that may be. But one thing you said when we talked that really stuck with us was the least used inbox is the mailbox at the end of the driveway.
Laura Smith:And we really found that to be like, oh, like I paused, you know, because it really is like, why is physical communication standing out so much more today than ever before? Like, I don't wanna get with the mail because I don't wanna have to you know, I don't get that much mail. But whatever I do get, it's usually not fun or exciting. It's junk. Junk.
Laura Smith:Is. And so it just you know, it's such an interesting thought because none of us think of our mailbox as being that valuable. But when I do get something personal, like a card or an invitation, like, that does like, I have a happy moment. I have a good feeling. Yeah.
Laura Smith:So Yeah. Why do you think that that people are just craving that? Do you think it has to do with the our evolution of AI and bringing that into the world? Is it just that we're too busy? Like, what what do you think it is?
David Wachs:I think people are fatigued from being asked for stuff and compelled, you know, marketed to a lot of the time. And what we really preach is kind of like a full stop thank you, where you're just saying thank you or you're not in three of those four messages we send you a year, we're not really asking for anything. So I think people love that and they love just the appreciation they get. So when you go through your mail and it's junk mail, junk mail, junk mail, and then you get a handwritten note, you kind of save that and you put that at the back, you toss all the junk mail, you sit down and then, or if you're, you you sit down and you open up that piece and it's refreshing to just have a thank you because we live in this society nowadays where nobody's you know, everybody thinks they're a a snowflake and and and don't say thank you. So just being able to kind of cultivate those relationships with with no ask, I think, is a big deal.
David Wachs:I I really think that's what it is. I think people are so sick of getting something that says bye bye or, you know, do do or whatever.
Brian Rowley:I think that's a 100% what what people feel because I mean, even within organizations and businesses, how many times does someone just say thank you without, oh, and we also need you to do this. Right? So just that But for a friend, we can review. But just that absence of there's no expected next step. It's just a literally thank you is I think a really important piece.
Brian Rowley:And I do think that's actually one of the reasons why it stands out and why it is as effective as it is.
Laura Smith:Because all of those LinkedIn messages I'm getting are it's mean, they're trying to get something out of me. They're not right. But they're not They're offering me something, I'll show you this free demo, whatever. But then they want there's other side of it. So this truly is, which I love about it, is that it is just saying thank you and not expecting anything more.
Laura Smith:I mean, I think about like, I get the emails from my financial planner or even my dentist, you know, saying happy birthday or whatever that may be. But, you know, those are gonna get those are the morning emails that I'm clicking deleting because it doesn't it feels like, okay. I know you're just and I'm in marketing. You didn't it's a mass communication. It's running out of your database.
Laura Smith:My financial planner really didn't have much to do with that, if anything. It's just an automated process. So I think that especially someone who you do spend money with and you are ongoing relationship, this feels so much more Yeah. Appreciated.
David Wachs:For, like, a luxury brand. And, unfortunately, it really ended over COVID. Everybody at the company we worked with left, but it was the best program we ever did. Unfortunately, it's six years old now. It was for a major Italian leather goods purse company.
David Wachs:You would have heard of them. And they have stores across America all over the world, but North America, Canada, US. After shopping at the store, you would receive a handwritten note from, in quotes, the store clerk. So it would have their name at the bottom, it would have their phone number and the store they're at. And it would just say, We hope you enjoy the mini purse, whatever it is.
David Wachs:If you have any questions, please come in and see us. And that was it. It was just to reinforce that relationship. And people are always asking, what's the ROI of a thank you? And I do think there's an ROI.
David Wachs:I think there's a couple of ways to measure it, whether that's doing an AB holdback test, you could do that. That's probably the easiest. But Einstein said, Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that's measurable matters. Right? I think everybody wants some crazy spreadsheet and they can calculate out to the umpteenth decimal point the effects of something.
David Wachs:And that's not realistic. Sometimes it's the longer you're playing the long game and you're trying to see over time how valuable is this relationship not a month from now. Know what I mean? Like, people will say, oh, we're going to use your service for a retail brand. We'll send people a note and then this will be a test and then in a month we'll get back to you.
David Wachs:Well, just because you sent somebody a handwritten thank you note, they're not going to turn around one month later and buy from you, especially if it's a high value ticket item. It might be a few months later. So you have to have that kind of longer term approach and understand that these things, they take time.
Laura Smith:Yeah, absolutely. And I think something like that Italian goods, I mean, I'm sure those purses were thousands of dollars. So someone is investing. So to have that treatment back just feels like I just went through a very high end experience where I feel like I'm valued. And that's a wonderful feeling for anybody who just made such a large purchase.
Laura Smith:So that makes total sense. All right. So we're going to move into the hot seat, David, because before we let you go, we have one more activity and that is our hot seat.
Laura Smith:That was like a bunch of children that we've hired to sing this song.
David Wachs:Was crazy. Love deep marketing discussions. If it's one thing I know about children, it's it's one on one marketing communication.
Laura Smith:That's right. Yeah. Okay. So we're gonna have some fun, David. We're gonna play overhyped or worth the hype.
Laura Smith:So we're gonna throw out a few common marketing tactics, and you're just gonna give us gut reaction, overhyped or worth the hype. You can say like, yes, overhyped, hyped, or you can kind of expand upon it, whatever you wanna do. But a little bit of a quick game here. Okay.
David Wachs:Okay.
Laura Smith:AI generated email personalization. Worth the hype or hyped?
David Wachs:I I think it's worth the hype to a degree. I think there is there is a point where it becomes over personalized and creepy. You fall short, it's called the personalization paradox. If you fall short of that, I think it's kind of needed these days, especially if you tie into the backend systems so you can provide better personalization of products or services.
Brian Rowley:Birthday emails.
David Wachs:Skip.
Laura Smith:Loyalty programs.
David Wachs:Worth the hype, but it has to be more than just a point program. It can't just be because you don't wanna be buying clients for points because as soon as you stop the points, they'll disappear. So you're not really getting loyalty, you're just having a transaction.
Brian Rowley:Personalized video messages.
David Wachs:We talked about this. Think actually it serves a purpose as long as they're not AI generated.
Laura Smith:Corporate swag.
David Wachs:To a degree worth the hype. Man, I'm pro everything here.
Brian Rowley:Really? Corporate swag you think worth the hype?
Laura Smith:I have to Well, tell
David Wachs:You know what? I take that back. You are absolutely right. If it has a logo on it, it is marketing, not a gift. So I agree with you.
David Wachs:There's a book called Becoming Superstars or something. I forget the name of the book exactly, but she talked about that. So when we give out swag, it has no it doesn't say handwritten on it. It tells a story, but it doesn't say handwritten. So I rescind, I agree, not worth the hype.
Brian Rowley:Referral incentives.
David Wachs:I would say not worth the hype. If they wanna refer you, they should refer you.
Laura Smith:Customer appreciation events.
David Wachs:A 100% worth the hype.
Brian Rowley:The phrase customer centric.
David Wachs:Redundant. I think I think every business should be customer centric. If you're not, you're you shouldn't be in business.
Laura Smith:Okay. You passed the quote unquote test. There's no test.
Brian Rowley:Wasn't that bad. I got
David Wachs:like seven out of six and a half out of 10.
Laura Smith:I mean
David Wachs:No right wrong.
Laura Smith:There's no
David Wachs:right or wrong.
Laura Smith:We just like to hear people's perspective. And you survived the not so hot hot seat.
David Wachs:Well, thank you. This is really, really fun. I appreciate everybody's interest here.
Brian Rowley:Thank you. David, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate great conversation. And I think people can learn a lot from this. I think Laura, as we just sort of recap here, I mean, I think one of the things that was interesting, and I think we both agree, like coming into this, we had a very different perspective than when we actually sat down and had the conversation with David and understood a little bit more around sort of where we were and where this is headed.
Brian Rowley:But I think a couple of things that stood out for me. I love that, you know, people are fatigued from being asked. I think that is such a true statement when we look at overall. And I think this, you know, handwritten as a whole, I think the concept of, you know, using it for retaining customers and understanding when is appropriate and when isn't appropriate, but, know, might not be appropriate for prospecting, but definitely great for retention. I think are two things that those that are listening to this can obviously learn from and perhaps, you know, look at ways to be able to use handwritten for that case.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think just a simple thank you is what people need and really appreciate. So this just feeds that. And I think it's it's a smart idea. And we don't normally, like, really talk so much about the our guests and their, like, business, but this one was so it's different, it's interesting, and it definitely so relates to our marketing, audience.
Laura Smith:And I felt like it was good to dive in so people can understand exactly what David's doing and how his organization works so, people can give it a try, hopefully. So thank you everyone for listening. And most importantly, if you liked what you heard today, be sure to follow us. And if you wanna hear more from David Wachs, you can find him on LinkedIn.