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Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by the minds at Dig Insights. We're interviewing some of the most inspiring brand professionals in marketing, innovation, and insights to discover the story behind the story of their most exciting innovations.
Jess Gaedeke (00:13)
Hi everybody, welcome to Dig Inspiration. I'm really excited because I recently was able to sit down with Amir Jamil who is Associate Director, Insights and Analytics at Brilla. And when we are thinking about who I'm going to talk to about that episode here at Dig, there is no better person than the one and only Frank Serpico, who has been the long-term senior consultative partner to
is one of our
here at Dig. And so I am just thrilled to get to spend some time with you today, Frank.
Frank Serpico (00:39)
Awesome. This is cool. I've never done one of these, so it's fun. I think this will be a good conversation, super easy.
Jess Gaedeke (00:42)
Here we go.
Frank Serpico (00:44)
And yes, I've been working with
for many years, so yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (00:48)
Great guy. I got, has so many lessons that he shared, right, Frank? So you
the conversation. One of the things he talked about was that really strategic segmentation project. ⁓ There were so many lessons that were built into that story. one of the things that I picked up on was just the idea of really facing pushback.
and really early on in the initiative. And that's really tricky when you're trying to advocate for something that is new and a change for the organization. So I'd love for you to just kind of reflect on that.
Frank Serpico (01:08)
Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (01:19)
know, when a client is hesitant about a new direction, what really helps build alignment and trust to move forward.
Frank Serpico (01:25)
Yeah, think,
I mean, honestly, at the end of the day, I think it comes down to
conviction without overconfidence or without being arrogant. Right. And so like when I get an RFP or,
brief, whatever it is, or have a conversation with a client and they're telling me like, Hey, this is the problem I need to solve for. This is what I need to understand.
approach that as this is them asking me, Frank.
Like, how would you solve this? Like, what would you do to help us solve this problem? And it's my job to not only present that solution, but to really believe in it. Like, I think that
have to have conviction. You have to know, like, this is actually what I believe is the best thing to do,
even if it's not what you think is the best thing to do, or if it's not even what you asked for, right? So you've got to have that conviction, but you can't be arrogant. You can't be
You just have to have conviction. That's the only way I can say it. so, and when I am met with pushback, I kind of have like a, call it like a three strike rule. I feel like if I get the first sense of pushback or I'm not sure that's the right direction, I think we should do this instead of that or whatever it may be. The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to make my case. I'm going to restate my case. I'm going to really explain why I think.
Not only this is the best thing to do, but it's going to give you the answers and the information and the tools that you need at the end of the day to solve your problem or to move forward or to build a strategy, whatever
be.
so I'm going to, I'm going to make that And if I get a strike or a second
it's really important to really listen to the, not just listen, hear the client, that stakeholder, whoever it may be. It may not even be your client. It may be a stakeholder that's
critical to the success of the project, right? It's really important to hear them. And so the second time I'm going to do more of a pros and cons approach, I'm going to listen to what they say. And they've already pushed back twice, so clearly they feel strongly about it, right? And so I'm going to lay out, well, we could do that. And here's what we'll get, and here's what we won't
And the way I would still recommend it is doing this, and this is what you'll get, and this is what you won't get. And at the end of the day, if they're pushed back again, that's it.
at that point, you're just being combative. so like at that point you pivot and you, you you, you do what is the best situation to compromise and move forward. Because to me, like at the end of the day, you need buy-in for anything to be successful. And when you've got big important studies like segmentations and you've got stakeholders across the organization, I'm a really big fan of like big meaty kickoff calls and
getting everybody together, especially the people who have like pet projects or initiatives that they just won't let go of. And you know that it's gonna be a roadblock. You don't wanna face those things. You don't want those things coming up at the end. You gotta have them upfront. You gotta put it all on the table. You gotta lay it all out there and you have to move forward together with consensus. Like you have to, and importantly, especially for those stakeholders who are like strong headed and like.
Jess Gaedeke (04:03)
Right.
Frank Serpico (04:16)
They have an agenda and you have to work that in. Like you have to allow them to see the fingerprints of their influence throughout the process. Even if you still do what you want to do or what you think is the best, like you have to allow that to come through because what even like for the Sparilla example, we got a lot of pushback on some things upfront and those people who pushed back, we ended up not doing what they wanted to do. But at the end, they were some of our best advocates because we had the conversation.
Jess Gaedeke (04:41)
Right.
Frank Serpico (04:43)
We hashed it out, right? We aired it all out, we made a decision and we moved forward together. So
Jess Gaedeke (04:49)
Yeah,
Frank Serpico (04:50)
think that's
Jess Gaedeke (04:50)
no.
Yeah, no, that's really a good point. And I think that point about building that conviction and overcoming those objections, that's one of my favorite parts
the process. You
do a lot of like consultative selling training and stuff. you know, one of my early mentors would say like, objections are just
there's signs of interest and intrigue and curiosity. And so it's good to understand where those objections are grounded and what are some those underlying motivations that are driving that objection. And I am so with you on, my God, you wanna address that stuff up front versus get to the end and you're delivering the thing. There's no one, yeah.
Frank Serpico (05:21)
yeah. You can't surprise me. Right. You're going to have surprises
anyway at the end, but you have to like, if it's going to be a point of contention, you got to head
out of the gate upfront
and just have that conversation. And a lot of like, a lot of times it's extensions of the team, right? It's not maybe your main client. It's someone else on the team. And a lot of times my clients are like very reluctant, like, you know.
Jess Gaedeke (05:41)
Right, right.
Frank Serpico (05:46)
this person is sometimes difficult and I don't want them to derail things. I'm like, no, like if they're going to derail it, derail it now. Like let's have that conversation now and get aligned, you know? And if they, even if we're dragging and kicking and screaming, like, you know, even if that's the case and we're not doing what they said, they've had the space to air their piece, to say what they think. And we're going to
Jess Gaedeke (05:53)
Right.
Yeah.
Frank Serpico (06:08)
whatever direction we're going to move in, you know, we're going to do it together. So.
Jess Gaedeke (06:11)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Well, and he told the story of segmentations and I was, as I was thinking about this conversation, Frank, I was like, I wonder how many segmentations Frank has done in his career. Definitely dozens, but did we get to a hundred yet? I don't know, I don't know. see. But done a lot. We've done a lot of segmentation work. And man, has segmentation evolved, right? I think about starting my career and how we did it back then and how we would, you know,
Frank Serpico (06:21)
many.
and it's over.
Jess Gaedeke (06:37)
produce the booklets and print all the slides of these segments.
Frank Serpico (06:40)
Alright.
Jess Gaedeke (06:42)
a lot has changed beyond just the delivery. But talk to me about that. What have you seen evolve? What really is critical nowadays? And what are some of the novel ways that we're approaching segmentations?
Frank Serpico (06:53)
I mean, so 100 % segmentation, I've been doing it for like most of my career,
over 100, I would say for sure.
honestly don't think segmentation is rocket science. Like it's not that complicated,
fact, you or I today, we could go to Chatchie PT and we could describe a category and describe some dynamics that are happening in the category and ask it to generate
five segments or six segments or seven segments. And you know what? It's probably gonna do a pretty damn good job of saying, these are probably the groups of people that exist out
That's actually not really what matters. Yeah, think actually Chat GPT could do a pretty good job of saying, these are probably the
exist out there. And a good segmentation, honestly, the best segmentations, they feel intuitive, they feel familiar.
Like you really shouldn't have a situation where you're like, boy, really never would have thought this segment would have arose. Like you didn't know your category well enough. You didn't do your homework upfront. You didn't explore. You didn't do enough qualitative. Or you biased your instrument some way by like having too much on a certain topic area that influenced the scheme. Right? So it really should feel familiar and it should feel intuitive.
Jess Gaedeke (07:45)
That's a really good point.
Frank Serpico (08:05)
And the segments themselves, they matter. Of course they matter, but they kind of don't matter. What really matters is how you activate
understanding, linking them to other information, right? Understanding not only their size from like a population standpoint, but understanding their size from an opportunity, from a dollar standpoint, right? It's understanding how your brand portfolio aligns with these segments, right? What they think about them, the nuances of those segments. And importantly,
It's about bringing those segments to life in a way and socializing them within the organization that inspires action and inspires
movement, right? And so, and to do that in a data-based approach as opposed to a speculation-based approach. So in a lot of ways, think segmentation hasn't changed a ton. Like at its core, we still need data, but what has changed is the sources of information, you know?
one of the days of a 45 minute survey where you're asking people tons and tons of questions and like consumers don't have that kind of bandwidth. And by the way, you get crappy data when you do that. And so you have to break it into pieces and you have to stitch together multiple sources.
have to understand not only their attitudes, but the behaviors, because you can't target an attitude, but you can drive, you can create a campaign off of an attitude, but you need the behaviors. You need that actual linkage to, you know, get in front of them and meet them where they are and all that good stuff.
And so I feel I still think active segmentation is still about activation and socialization. That's where the magic happens out of segmentation is when you get people together. And I still think that's best done in
getting people together in a room and for a half a day and locking them in and all that good stuff. And I think A.I. has unlocked what has really changed is like A.I. has unlocked ways that we can connect the segments of what never do before.
You can build segment profiles and you can train a large language model to be that segment and understand that segment with all
context and nuances. And then you can query that segment. You can ask a question, just like if you were to recruit somebody and do some focus groups. It's just another great tool that I think today is different. But at its core, feel like the core essence of segmentation is about inspiring action and inspiring activation. And if you're not doing that,
It doesn't matter what you've done, you know, all the rest of it is kind of...
Jess Gaedeke (10:21)
Yeah, I wish we could tell the tales of our favorite segmentations and our least favorite segmentations. ⁓ My favorite segmentation was from my days that I supported Heinz. This is before there was Kraft Heinz. It was just Heinz in Pittsburgh. And in fact, Kathleen Kauff was my client on the segmentation. She was the SVP here at DIG.
Frank Serpico (10:29)
Thank
Jess Gaedeke (10:38)
I just remember it was a fun category. But the part that really was memorable to me was at the rollout and
co-naming, like collaborating with her full stakeholder team on what to call the segments to bring them to life. then when you hear those segment names being,
about in just everyday conversations on the client side, it's just like, yes, you understand that person. You understand that human being you're trying to market and innovate for.
I just think some of those are so rewarding, right? And I still remember those names.
Frank Serpico (11:09)
100%.
If you're, if you aren't building that intimate relationship with this, with the primary target segment or segments, whatever they may be, like you're not doing your job because the data you collect, the information, the profiles, they're just the tip of the iceberg. Like you have to,
do thought experiments. You have to project, you have to say, okay, well, now that I know this about this segment, like what, what do I think they would think about that? And so that's the only way you do that is with great socialization and great engagement and humanizing them.
and bringing the team on board. Again, the stakeholders up front, having those beefs, getting them out of the way so that at the back end, everybody can align and embrace
Jess Gaedeke (11:37)
Yeah.
good lessons learned across those hundred plus segmentations. We won't date
another thing Amir talked about and honestly, Frank, every one of my guests has brought up something related to Gen Z and you and I have Gen Z kids. Well, we on the daily understand that they have a
Frank Serpico (11:56)
Mmm. Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (12:02)
BS meter, I can sense, inauthenticity a mile away. So they have a lot of expectations of brands in terms of delivering credibility and authenticity. What have you seen across how you've been consulting clients? What are some ways that brands can communicate credibility and that authenticity in a way that passes the sniff test for this generation?
Frank Serpico (12:12)
Hmm.
Gen Zs are so important and they are so different in their buying behavior and how they engage and all the rest of that. And so I think a hundred percent like authenticity is the key there,
but like, what does that mean? What does authenticity mean? You know, I think it's,
realness, it's transparency, it's not being perfect or presenting this perfect situation. Like they just see through that.
Can I say bullshit? I don't know. I just said bullshit.
Jess Gaedeke (12:49)
I think I
was gonna say bullshit earlier now we've said it three times so yeah, they smell bullshit.
Frank Serpico (12:55)
They could smell it a mile away, right? And they also, the other thing about Gen Z is they kind of came of age in the culture creator world where individuality can have an impact, right? The way a person, an individual thinks
and what they believe and how they communicate. There's platforms to now spread that and engage with that and influencers, they really matter.
leads Gen Zs that empowers them, in my opinion, to be individuals, to think for themselves, and to not worry what other people say, but to really just like, I don't like this brand, or I do like this brand, and here's
And they
empowered to share that and to be vocal about it and to speak to other people. And so there's a whole network effect that sort of happens there, I feel like, with Gen Zs. And so...
Yeah, think
win and to be there, I still think you need to meet Gen Zs where they
them find you, right? You've got to understand how they engage and the moments that they engage with your brand and the intricacies and the nuances, because that's what matters most to a Gen Z is those, do you...
Do you get me? Because if you don't get me, I'm not committed to you. You know what I
Jess Gaedeke (14:11)
Yeah, I absolutely agree. the other thing that Amir talked about was this idea of brand loyalty and a lot of our...
to brands is formed in early usage in a household. You know, I think he used the term like, you know, brand loyalty being built at the dinner table. Do you think that's going to be true with Gen Z and as they continue to evolve? Like, I don't know if my daughter is going to use the same brand of toothpaste that I use or that she grows up using. There's just such a proliferation of choice and so much influence by social dynamics. So I'm just curious. So how do you think brand loyalty? Will it evolve?
Frank Serpico (14:45)
I think the answer is maybe yes and yes to two questions. I think it's, it is different today, but I also think that there is some loyalty that's still, especially for food brands, there is loyalty that's still built at the table and whatever the table means today, it's not always a family table. It's, know, standing at the Island before you go to a sports sporting game or whatever it is. Like it's whatever your family dynamic is.
I do think there's still something to that familiarity, that nostalgia, that this is a brand that I'm comfortable with, this is a brand my family trusts. I still think that matters,
doesn't carry the weight that it used to carry. It's just not enough to convert that. You need
elevate that loyalty beyond that piece. And that's where it comes in, again, with the whole individuality with younger consumers.
If you aren't standing for something, if you aren't meeting consumers where they are and engaging with them and giving them a reason, like there's so many price pressures out there today. There's so many good choices.
You know, there's so many influencers that, you know, endorse brands and there's so much noise and there's people getting hit with all over the place. But I think what hasn't changed and what's I think super powerful with, especially again, like the younger consumers.
And Gen Z is like, if they believe in something and if they're passionate about it, they're going to stay with it. And they believe in like the power of voting with their dollar, right? They believe that if I don't buy you, I'm making an impact and I'm going to tell everybody else why I'm not buying you. And so there's this sense of impact that, that really influences brand loyalty. And so I do think like it takes,
takes both. It takes the sort of and a little bit of that familiarity.
but it takes being relevant, staying relevant, meeting consumers where they are today, not just when they were little and all that sort of stuff.
Jess Gaedeke (16:33)
you said about the family table really kind of resonated with me because my family table has changed so much even this school year. It's like we used to sit down as a family
nights like the majority of the nights of the week and now I cannot between sports and this and that like I barely see them honestly after school and before bedtime. So
I'm missing those days. I would love to have more of the family dinner table. I don't know, are you feeling the same thing, Frank? Are you?
Frank Serpico (17:01)
Cool, I've
got a 16 year old and a 13 year old. so like, yeah, we have, we have really one night a week where nobody's got to be anywhere. We can all be together and we almost, we definitely do dinner together, right? Whether it's home cooked or sometimes it's the one that we go out because we're all together. And so we'll go out and get something to eat. But yeah, a hundred percent. Like it's everybody's going in different directions, doing different things. so it's
table is very dynamic.
You
Jess Gaedeke (17:28)
Yeah, and then if I turn that to my like consumer part of my life, then what I need from brands, it changes and they need to, you know, kind of I need different brands for different situations. Like when I do get that one or two nights a week where I do get to prepare, I love to cook. like when I get to actually prepare it.
I have relationships with the broth brands that I purchase because I love to roast a chicken with this. You know what I mean? And that means something to me. And I associate that family connection with those brands. Totally with you. Sometimes we get that treat of going out. And so what's the restaurant we're going to choose? And what does that mean for us as a family? It's really interesting to think about how that has changed, especially as my kids, same age as yours.
And so they kind of want to go to, don't know if, is there a Bain Cafe thing in Chicago area? It's really big on the West Coast. But that's Ella's thing. And so now it's like, okay, are we going to pick Ella's favorite for tonight? Or are we going to go B-dubs, which is Buffalo Wild Wings for AJ, right? So anyway, it's just funny to think about how my association with brands is changing as my kids mature as well.
Frank Serpico (18:13)
No thanks.
All right.
100%. Yeah.
I see it in my girls, you the way
engage with
still are influenced by what we have exposed them to and what we consider good and all the rest of that. like, you know, like I won't, I only buy this brand of whatever, you know I mean? Because that, don't like that one, that one's, but they're also like their own individuality is really coming through. And sometimes it's like, yeah, I don't really like that anymore. And I like this and said, okay, cool.
Jess Gaedeke (18:56)
Right?
Frank Serpico (18:56)
you know, whatever it is.
Jess Gaedeke (18:58)
And then it'll be something different next week. So with that, that Frank, thank you for taking time out of your very busy work day and just your very busy life to chat. It was such a great conversation with Amir. Thank you again for ⁓ inviting him to the podcast. You were the one to make that intro. So really do appreciate that.
Frank Serpico (19:00)
A hundred. ⁓
Jess Gaedeke (19:15)
great episode. And thank you for your time and wisdom today.
Frank Serpico (19:17)
Awesome. This was fun. Let's do it again.