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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:00.608)
Okay. Morning.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.368)
Happy Anniversary. Is that okay to share?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05.721)
Thanks. That is okay to share. It's our wedding anniversary. Eight years.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:11.418)
How many? we almost got married at nearly the same time. I'm barely ahead of you, because we're having our ninth anniversary next month.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:19.947)
Really? Okay, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:22.608)
congratulations to us all for, I don't know, successfully coupling for a while. And by the way, people can't tell I'm still recovering from this ridiculous cold that's been going on for three weeks. So sorry if my voice is a little annoying today.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:26.839)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (00:31.927)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:38.187)
You have sexy throaty voice.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:40.142)
Well, you might say that. I don't know if I think it's that, but hey, whatever. My husband just said it's very, he thinks it's quite masculine, quite deep, I should say. Not so sexy, but that's okay. I am very much on the mend. I have more energy. just, the cough won't go. And my son has also had this, he's who gave it to me. He's had it at least two or three weeks longer than I have. Just the cough, and some crud.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:45.442)
Does your husband think it's sexy?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:54.702)
But you're feeling better though.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:09.123)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:09.21)
But it's all fine, and I think, I'm afraid, I may be in for this cough for a while. Anyway, it's okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:13.897)
no. Yeah, yeah. Is it the cough that's making your like voice and throat scratchy?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:19.47)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, I have a deep, like this cough that sometimes is productive, a lot of times isn't. And it's just like, you know, exhausting when you need to cough. Anyway, but that's okay. We don't have to talk about me being sick, because that's boring. Although we don't know what we're gonna talk about. yeah, anything on your mind right now?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:30.925)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:38.529)
We don't, we're just kind of winging it today.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:43.918)
well, I have been seeing a lot of Taylor Swift content.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:50.672)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (01:51.522)
Because she, you know, I guess a week ago or maybe two weeks ago, yeah, released the life of a showgirl? Is that what it's called?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:55.6)
I think it was just last week.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:00.624)
Yeah, I don't know. I think that sounds right. It's her new album and it's getting some harsh critique from what I've seen online. I've seen that it's a bit derivative of Sabrina Carpenter, who I also don't know, so can't say. And that maybe the, I've seen even some like, Swiftie adjacent, her cult people, I think it wouldn't matter. She's, it's like Trump. It doesn't matter what she does. They're gonna follow her down that and defend and support.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:09.153)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:29.828)
but I've seen some of those people who are maybe not as hardcore who are like, this isn't really that good. Yeah. And then also I saw that she's already a week after releasing that has released some special printing something that was like available for a day. The woman is a grifter. Yeah. Come at me, Swifties. mean, it's just how much more do you need? How much more money do you need that you have to release with everything? I looked at her website because I was just curious.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:36.011)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:53.138)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:58.714)
There's like a special mug that's just for this album and a special sweatshirt. And like, I get people want to buy things that they, to show their support and that they care. But it's like, she's always having to release some like special version of the thing that you, and they're creating all this FOMO amongst her like culty people that if they don't buy it, they're going to be left out. And I just don't believe that she is compensating all involved in the production of all the things.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:14.102)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:28.162)
in a way that is...
Taina Brown she/hers (03:32.051)
Yeah, yeah, it really brings to my conversations about like manufactured urgency and the greed of the billionaire class, right? It's like, like we were watching the news the other morning and, well, my wife watches the news. I just kind of hang around. And if I'm in the same room, then I'm also watching the news. Right, right. But they do.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:39.38)
for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:55.92)
You're at least hearing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:01.975)
CBS morning deals or something like that where they highlight different products every morning. And the products that they were highlighting that day were from John and Chrissy Teigen, John Legend and Chrissy Teigen. so like, like she has like, it's like box cake, box cookie mixes or whatever, but like better quality. It's actually not bad. I've tried a few. And then apparently he has like a skincare, body care line.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:05.466)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:25.328)
Good for you.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:30.724)
He seems to have nice skin.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:32.2)
Yeah, yeah. But, and listen, I love John Legend and Chrissy Teigen, but I'm also like, every time celebrities come out with like something new, I'm like, what else are you going to monopolize?
Becky Mollenkamp (04:42.832)
How many more alcohol brands do they, like enough, right? And then they just find the next thing. Skincare is definitely one of those where they love to be a part of it. Alcohol, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:50.676)
Yeah. Fragrances. It's like, leave some for the rest of us. Like, what about like the people who this is really their passion or this is what they went to school for or like, it's just. It is, it is. And I'm just like, it's the celebrity worship along with like celebrities who feel like they have to have their hand in everything. And it's like.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:03.074)
Celebrity worship is really something, isn't it?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:16.569)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:20.18)
I'm all for people exploring interests and hobbies, but that's not what this is. yeah, like you're, monopolizing an entire industry because of it. And people are going to buy it because of your name, right? Because of the brand recognition. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:27.728)
That's a cash grab.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:36.58)
Right, because the cult of personality, right? The celebrity fascination that we seem to have. And yeah, it's bizarre to me. mean, John Legend, and again, same as you, I have nothing that I object, like I don't know enough about that couple to have anything particularly negative to say. I think from what I can tell, Chrissy Teigen seems to try to use her social media platform for some pretty good social causes and all of that. But like,
His passion, I don't know about her, I think she was a model, so that may be a little different, I don't know. But with him, his passion's music, right? That's what he was put on this earth to do, it's what he's amazing at. He seems to actually really love that. Him being a judge on one of those shows, that's illogical, that makes sense. If he was gonna sell a line of pianos, okay, I kinda get that. Not that I think he needs to, but okay. But why, why do you need to
Taina Brown she/hers (06:05.752)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:19.199)
The voice. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:25.63)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:32.367)
put yourself into this. You might have nice skin, maybe you enjoy that, but like, is that your zone of genius just because you happen to have nice skin or like, I don't know at some point in how many zones of genius does anyone need to have, right? Like not enough to dominate one space, you now have to try and dominate six. Like I don't quite get it.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:32.779)
to have a skincare brand.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:45.365)
Can you have, yeah. And the thing is, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the thing for me is like, even if it is your zone of genius, like, don't you have enough?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:58.894)
Right? Or support? Could it not look like? Yeah. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:00.595)
Or support someone else's brand. Like be an investor in someone else's brand, right? Like a Black creator or Black scientist or something. And it's just like, like I just, every time.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:05.506)
I mean, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:11.728)
Well, what is enough? What's enough, Tayina? This is an interesting discussion too, I think, because in capitalism, we're never encouraged to explore enough, right? Capitalism is always about more and faster. How can you get more, more, more now, now, now? Elon Musk just topped 500 billion in wealth. That's just happened, and it's happening at this rapid clip. And when we look at the difference between 300 billion and 500 billion, I don't think people can even begin to wrap their brain around.
The difference, because it sounds like, the difference between $300 and $500 is not that much. This is astronomical amounts of wealth to go from 300 billion, which is already an outlandish, like incomprehensible number. That going to 500 billion is even more, and that's only happened in the last few years. Like, he's accumulating wealth at the most outrageous clip in a way that we cannot comprehend. And that has happened so quickly.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:45.147)
It's not.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:54.6)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:09.71)
I think we are normalizing it in a way, because capitalism is like how much, how quick. And it's so like a part of like ethos, the way we're working. Yeah, that we just, no one ever encourages people to ask about enough. In fact, so much so that if you do, I, cause I do this with clients, I'm sure you maybe do some of the same sort of things where we talk about, it's like, let's think about what's enough. When you do that with people, their reaction is, I don't want to settle.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:17.908)
Yeah, our psyche.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:40.452)
I don't wanna fail, right, by accepting less. Enough is a word that should mean everything I need, right? That's enough, I got it all. It's now enough. But instead we have taken that word that actually should mean abundance and we have made it into less.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:51.082)
Everything you could need or want. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:05.136)
The definition has changed to a place where we now think of it as failure, as not enough, as settling, as less than. It is mind boggling. So no one sits around and asks themselves, how much do I actually need? What's enough? There is no enough inside of capitalism. And I just think we see that playing out with celebrities who, and again, this wealthy class just keeps getting more and more wealthy. And then we sit around as the people, as the have-nots.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:05.257)
Mm-hmm. Scart city.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:19.506)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:32.944)
instead of rebelling against that saying, well, I don't want enough. Why would I ask them to have enough? And if I tell them they have to settle for enough, that means I'm saying I have to settle, quote unquote, settle for enough. And I never want that. I want to be able to have more and more and more. And so we just keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Like everyone should be fucking revolting in the streets that one human being has $500 billion.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:37.703)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:46.075)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:55.223)
Yeah, during a time when the economy is in crisis, there is an ongoing genocide in Palestine. There's an ongoing war in Ukraine.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:07.344)
There's a war on our home turf. President Trump has now threatened to put into jail elected officials who have done nothing wrong except trying to obey the actual laws of this land, which say states get to govern themselves. That is very much the fabric of what America was built on. The states' rights, Republicans are now fighting that, saying, no, no, they disagree with our new leader of this land, who we now say is a king.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:09.168)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:19.454)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:25.958)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:36.398)
And so they should be put in jail. They want to put Pritzker and the mayor of Chicago. He has publicly said they should be in jail for disagreeing with him, for not allowing him to come in with federal troops or, you know, federalized state troops from other states. Like we now have states invading states. Texas is invading Illinois. Like that's what's happening. It's literally like a civil war. And that stuff is happening right here, right now, along with the fact that
Taina Brown she/hers (10:58.247)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:03.118)
I don't know about you, our, and I've seen universally people this year going into next year, insurance rates, health insurance rates have, skyrocketing for many people as much as doubling. That's very much the case in my family, not to mention food prices as we've talked about before.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:11.069)
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, our grocery bill has like doubled over the past few years. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:20.344)
Absolutely, right? Since COVID and there's because of corporate greed, which has been proven. It is not because of inflation. It is not because of rising costs of, you know, downstream costs. It is literally because of corporate greed. They saw an opportunity. There are tapes. You can go and see here these CEOs saying, we have now a customized people to paying more. We can continue to do that so that we continue to make more. And we're all like, I think it's because it's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33.798)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:43.543)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:49.85)
What do they talk about where you're being like, drowned by the hose? Like you're, you're drinking from a hose from a fire hose, right? Like, you just, are so drowning in all of it. They're there. It's like, and I think we've talked about you and I talked a little bit about this yesterday too of like, I don't even know. I think we're not alone in, I don't even fucking know where to look or what to do. Like because of that fire hose, I can't even catch my breath, let alone think about.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:56.2)
From a fire hydrant? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:11.016)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:16.28)
What are the steps I can take? Because it's coming from so many places. It's so overwhelming. It's like, where do you even start? What do you even do? And when you are in that place, when you're drinking from the fire hose, you just want to shut down.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:19.516)
So many places, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:28.763)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Like I literally just checked out.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:33.284)
I'm not gonna buy Taylor Swift's album. How about that? Exactly, right? I know. And I don't have any answers. I don't know. And I feel like that is the reality of what we're living in. is like how, speaking of like messy liberation, because this is, I do believe, I keep coming back to this and I don't know if you're still there. I do believe that all of this will eventually be in service of something really, really important.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:41.648)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:58.712)
I do believe with that MLK belief that the arc of justice bends, it's long, but it bends in the right direction. We will get, like, all of this is in service of progress. As hard as that can feel to believe in the moment, right? Like in the same way that I can only imagine in World War II and people living in occupied places then and feeling like this cannot be in the service of anything better, we do see that over time it was ultimately in service of something better, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (12:58.823)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:04.016)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:10.033)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:27.921)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:28.208)
ridding ourselves at that time of fascism, here we are again. But like, I do think that is where we're going. But when you are in the thick of it, in the messy middle of it, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (13:40.812)
It's hard to see that.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:42.456)
It's hard to believe it sometimes, it's hard to see it, it's hard to, and then it's hard to focus. And like even just working, you know, like, and even this podcast, which already feels a little scattershot, but that's kind of where my brain's at. Literally every day I wake up every day, I don't know about you, but I feel that way every day where I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And then it's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:43.943)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:52.539)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:02.649)
What do I do? Where do I look?
Becky Mollenkamp (14:08.212)
yeah, but remember those insurance costs and those grocery bills and that child that I love who deserves to eat? Like, I have to figure this shit out. And also, like what? What the fuck?
Taina Brown she/hers (14:15.43)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:19.067)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, it makes me think of like the Hunger Games.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:27.032)
I just saw somebody else talking about Katniss. Who were they equating to Katniss? Well, that's funny. I don't remember, but somebody on social media was going around talking about like Katniss and that she would be disgusted by the way we are all. That was what it was. It was sort of like Katniss would be disgusted with us right now. That we're all this sort cause like we are, was the bad people in those movies? What were they called? The Capitol guard or I don't remember. Do you remember the name of that? Yeah. So like we're.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:33.926)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:44.218)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:53.871)
They live in the capital. They live in the capital, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:56.728)
Like basically saying like, we're all kind of the capital folks now, claiming unlike like talking about how we want to be Katniss's, but really just still kind of showing up as like capital dollars.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:09.571)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Showing up in like costume basically and pretending like everything is okay. Yeah, no, I think, you know, when people think about like obviously the world wars and like fascism and things like that. And I think we talked about this last week where it's like people think about the end part of that. that was yesterday. Gosh, the conversations are starting to run together. like, but it's like, but that's
Becky Mollenkamp (15:14.053)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:29.69)
We talked about this yesterday, just you and I. Should be good to talk about, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:39.899)
That's not the entirety of it. When you look at books and films like The Hunger Games that are dystopian and post-apocalyptic, that's the climax of it, the end. Before the big, yeah, before the big pivot, before the tipping point. But everything that leads up to it is a part of that. People think of fascism as like...
Becky Mollenkamp (15:52.164)
right before the big stage thing, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:06.169)
on dystopianism as like a singular point in time, but the reality is
Becky Mollenkamp (16:11.489)
And that it happens like it goes from everything's good to almost like there is that nuclear bomb that drops, but that's not the reality of what this looks like.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:15.76)
So all of a sudden everything is back. Yeah.
Right. No, no, the reality is that it's a process. Like it's a multi-step process to get to that. Like it's a journey, not. Right, right. And so, and like we're there.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:29.72)
It's like slow and all at once, right? Yeah. But we are in the slow, well, except we're not even to the, like we are there, but we're not to the place where people recognize it as there. And that's the problem because by the time you recognize it as there, holy shit, you're in real, real, like, I mean, we're talking about marching people into death camps, like, and, know, everything that we sort of think of, specifically around Nazi Germany and thinking about, you know, well, Nazism.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:40.772)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:47.782)
of real trouble.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:58.992)
And the conclusion of that right before liberation came, we're not there. But once you're there, you're beyond fucked, But we're many steps towards that, like many, many, many. And it's ramping up at such an accelerated pace that it's terrifying to me. Because again, let's remind everyone, we are 10 months, nine months actually, nine months into this administration.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:01.957)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:11.018)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:14.947)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:21.603)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:25.701)
Yeah, not even halfway.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:30.008)
Not even close to halfway, not even a quarter. We're not even a quarter of the way through this administration. And that is if in theory we are allowed any sort of semblance of a legal vote, which I don't actually think will happen in four years. I think next year, potentially, right, maybe we're not so far gone that the midterms could be somewhat unencumbered. But I mean, we've seen the gerrymandering that's happening. We know what's going on.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:35.333)
Fuck.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:43.353)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:53.04)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:57.643)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:59.642)
try get rid of mail-in voting, and the disenfranchisement that's already happening is out of control. So to think that we're going to have any, I mean, what we always look at in the case of like a Putin or, you know, places where they pretend to have elections, but with the, you know, there's, the outcome is already a foregone conclusion. I think we look at those things and think that won't happen here. Our systems will save us, but the systems are already failing.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:22.927)
Cause they're run by the people who...
Becky Mollenkamp (18:26.382)
are in control, and they're not supposed to be. I think that we think that our systems were infallible, right? Because again, we go to that American exceptionalism. We think that we are some exception that somehow it'll all save, but that's not true, right? Because all it takes is for exactly what's happening, one man to say, yeah, I hear you judges, but I don't care. I'm not gonna do what you said. And it falls apart. And that's exactly what's happening right now because that three-prong system
Taina Brown she/hers (18:27.577)
Mm
Taina Brown she/hers (18:34.467)
They're not. Nope.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:41.946)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:51.747)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:56.502)
Once one prong says we aren't gonna listen to the others, and that's exactly what's happening. And I think so many people are still believing that something's gonna magically shift and change and save us. And it's not. But so then, like, okay, that's all the scary stuff. Yeah, so what does that look like? And I think that's the stuff that, and I do feel like there is some amount of wash, rinse, repeat with our show, in a way.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:59.14)
The whole thing falls apart.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:10.537)
No, like we have to be the ones to save us.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:23.898)
But I also think it's just because that's where we all are. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:26.55)
It's iteration. That's what it is. It's not wash, rinse, repeat. I mean, it is, but it's because it's iteration. So you're not necessarily doing the same thing over and over and over again. You're doing the same thing over again and then adding on or taking away, right? You're iterating, so you're fine tuning, you're honing, you're smoothing, you're carving away, you're building. And as you do that, it expands. It becomes expansive. And so I think...
Becky Mollenkamp (19:33.251)
I that.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:47.119)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:54.895)
where people get lost is where they feel like they're on a hamster wheel because they're not doing the work of figuring out what changes to make and what pivots to make, or they're just not paying attention. They're just not doing anything at all. And so they look around and it feels like a hamster wheel as opposed to an iteration.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:59.408)
Good?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:09.936)
because we've shut down. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I love that and thank you because it does, feels like we're asking the same questions without real answers in a way, over and over again. But I think in the asking of the questions, like you said, slowly through that process, it allows us to become more expansive in our thinking and to find answers that previously we thought weren't there, right? Like we were, but if you're not asking the questions again and again, then you're not trying, you're not allowing, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:23.202)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:34.69)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:41.964)
You're not going to get the answers. Yeah. And the thing is like, we don't have the answers. Like every single person has to ask those questions for themselves. Like we can't give someone, like I can't give you answers for St. Louis the same way you can't give me answers for Baltimore. Like we have to be able to in our own local environments, ask ourselves those questions. And I think people assume that like the answers are at the high level, but really the answers are at the very, very local level.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:46.416)
No one does.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:11.649)
like your neighbors, your county, your state, your city, right? Like that's where the iterations need to happen. Like you, because that's how expansion happens. Like it starts small. Like you can't start big and expect it's expansion. Like it doesn't work that way.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:29.892)
Well, obviously we can't look at a top-down approach because the threat is coming from the top, right? So you're right. Like we have to invert that completely and think about, and the truth is when we are in a system of hierarchy like we have in America, that pyramid, the beauty of it is that if we flip it on its head, the pyramid at the top is small, right? And it gets bigger as it goes down. So when we flip it on its head and say we're starting at the bottom, we actually have numbers.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:34.37)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:45.772)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:52.578)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:57.838)
Right? When you look at that pyramid, suddenly when you flip it on the bottom, bulk, the masses is where the numbers are. And we sort of look at the threat being at the top. It actually, in some ways can make me feel a little better because I'm like, yeah, the threat is small. Right? It's just the top of that pyramid that's the threat. The bulk of this is not the threat. We are the people who are saying no. And I see more and more like Alaska just elected a Democrat mayor in some city that hadn't done it in over a decade. Right? Like,
Taina Brown she/hers (21:58.069)
Uh-huh.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:03.116)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:12.694)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:17.367)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:26.416)
And I've seen more and more there was a Democrat elected in Iowa in a place that hadn't for a while. And not that I think Democrats are the answers or that elections are even the answers, but I do see it those more local level races. People are saying, we're done. Even if you aren't Trump, right? And you don't have that kind of power. We're not even allowing, we don't want to introduce those ideas into our community. And I do think it's important to remember, like, your school board matters, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:41.699)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:48.15)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:52.067)
Yeah. Those are gatekeepers, right? At the local level, those are the gatekeepers that are going to keep out or bring in that 1 % that's at the top of the pyramid that feels so threatening. But again, it's 1%. 1%, 1%, right? And so we have to pay attention. We have to focus our energy on
Becky Mollenkamp (22:56.141)
Yes!
Taina Brown she/hers (23:15.98)
who are the gatekeepers in our local communities. Those are the people that we have to hold accountable, that we have to make sure that their values are for the people that they're overseeing or governing and not the way things are looking in Washington right now.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:28.677)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:36.43)
Well, mean, look at what's happening. I think what's happening in Illinois and specifically Chicago, because it's not even Illinois, it's in Chicago, is a really I'm excited to watch what continues to happen there with the way Pritzker is showing up, but also with the way the mayor of Chicago is showing up. Right. And they're they're doing things in that very small. mean, Chicago is a big city, but still it's not we're not talking a national federal sort of issue here. We're talking about one community out of.
Hundreds of millions of Americans, we're talking tens of millions, right? So it is a fraction, a small fraction of this bigger national population where they're saying, we're creating ice-free zones. We're saying ice isn't welcome here. Where you're seeing them actually say, cannot, to Kristi Noem, you can't come into this building. You're not allowed in here, right? Where they're putting up and supported by the local government, the people in charge, those gatekeepers, but at that very local level saying, no, here's how we're gonna push back.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:15.628)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:33.528)
And that may come to a head, but they've also then got Pritzker behind them saying, I'm also here supporting you. Put us in jail, let's push these issues and actually see where the rest of America then starts to show up. But we're doing it at that local level. And like, again, I think because, you my kid's in school and it's issue near and dear to my heart, but like school boards, just because that's one of those even that I think it's an election a lot of people skip. I think it's something a lot of people don't think about. If you don't have kids, I know before I had kids, I rarely thought about it. And yet.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:35.479)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:56.597)
Bye.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:01.163)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:02.808)
What's more important than the future generations of leaders, right? And what they are being exposed to in school, what they're being taught in school, what's being allowed to happen inside of their schools or not happen. And locally in St. Louis, we've had some school boards, quite a few, that have been taken over by moms of liberty, right-wing extremism thinking. And then that starts to translate into what is and is not being taught in schools.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:10.741)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:24.917)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:31.598)
whether they're allowed to put up pride, you know, flags in their classroom or something that even is right. Exactly all of that in my school district continues to resist those people. They keep running. We keep showing up in numbers and saying no, but neighboring districts, literally next door districts have not done that. And it's just that reminder that like showing up and saying this may be happening everywhere. I may live in a red state. I may live in a red county.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:31.605)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, programming where money is spent. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:01.584)
I may have people on my neighbors a few miles away who are saying we're here to support that, but we are saying no. This area, we continue to band together to say these are our values and we are gonna fight to protect them all the way down to this level. And then continuing out from there into then who represents us on the county board, who represents us in the federal government, but as a rep, right? Like the places where my vote can actually still make a difference.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:12.566)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:18.913)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:25.301)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:28.56)
where it hasn't yet been completely tainted, although I've been gerrymandered. My vote in Missouri, as you may know, we're having the same gerrymandering. It already happened. It's being fought in the courts, but we'll see what happens. The same thing that happened in Texas where they, and my district is one of those that was affected by the new gerrymandered rules. I had previously been gerrymandered out of a district into Cori Bush's at the time, who we love, like Cori, she's running again. I can't fucking wait. I was.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:44.607)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:53.258)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:56.72)
gerrymandered into her district because our area had gotten too liberal. So they put a bunch of us in there to ensure that Ann Wagner, who's a piece of shit, could hold on to power because she was losing. She was going to lose. They had to move more of us into this district that's actually St. Louis City. I don't live in St. Louis. I live in St. Louis County. Like the way the lines were clear, just drawn like, hey, you guys are getting too liberal. You go over here. We've now been drawn back because now they're afraid that Cori Bush could win. Right. So they're putting us back. Plus they're giving me on a bunch of other
Taina Brown she/hers (27:06.367)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:18.046)
Yeah. Back, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:26.788)
people who are more conservative to make sure that Anne continues to hold her vote, but that Corey has fewer people if she can win re-election that she'll represent. So I'm fighting the ways I can. My brain is fried also, so I know I totally went on a loop. You got me fired up.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:38.133)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we talked about what is enough and also just the fact that like everything is like everything. And just like the iter, like, how do you iterate? Like, do you hold on to that hope? And I think it just it takes me back to conversations we had at the beginning of this.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:54.101)
Everything is everything.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:12.256)
Administration, that's the word I was looking for. you have to be able to, on an individual level, like, figure out, are the small things that I'm going to focus my energy on? Like, you can't drink out of the fire hydrant or out of the fire hose, whatever the fucking metaphor is. Like, you can't. Like, it's just not possible. That's what they're...
Becky Mollenkamp (28:35.502)
It'll drown you.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:36.896)
That's what they're trying to make us believe that we have to do, right? They're throwing everything at us for a reason, right? It's to create overwhelm. It's to create distraction. to zap energy to, you know, disenfranchise people by making them broke and exhausted and overwhelmed and whatever. so...
Becky Mollenkamp (28:39.364)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:03.815)
What do we do? Like, okay, well, you walk away from the fire hose and you figure out what's like the one or two issues. Like maybe if you're a parent, maybe it is school board elections, right? If you're an older, you know, person and your kids are in the house and maybe you're an empty nester, maybe it's policing, right? Sheriff elections, if they're elected in your county or your state or whatever. Maybe it's city council.
Right? Maybe it's healthcare, like whatever the case may be, like find one or two things that you can, that you decide for yourself. That, and I think that's so key here. It's like choosing for yourself. Like so much of what's happening is meant to make us feel like we don't have a choice for ourselves.
that our agency is being stripped away, our power is being stripped away. But the singular act of just choosing for yourself is a reminder, right, that like, no, you do have some power here, right? And that it may not be on the same level as like what's being thrown at you, from the people who are throwing all this shit at us, but we do have some power here. And part of taking back that power is choosing for yourself.
What are the one or two issues that I want to focus on and how am I going to focus on those one or two issues? And who are the people that I need to align myself with to focus on those one or two issues? And how much time, right? Like setting those parameters for yourself is a really powerful, powerful thing to engage in.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:30.671)
right.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:46.458)
Well, and I think that goes back to that, that we reference all the time, but Deepa Iyer's social change map and looking at the different ways that we can show up. Cause it's also like, it's not even just the, and I think you sort of alluded to this too, cause it's not just the one or two things that you care about, but also like, what are the ways that you're going to show up around that thing? So for some people, it might look like voting is the thing they do because that's where they have their resource to have capacity. It works with their life. You know, if you're working three jobs to survive right now,
Taina Brown she/hers (31:08.892)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:15.882)
just getting out to vote because we don't even support, That maybe it might look like volunteering for a campaign. It might look like showing up to some of these marches and protesting. For me, it also looks like using my voice like I was wearing my ice can get fuck shirt yesterday around town and being out in public saying like being clear about this is how I feel and having that the thing that I like about for me that showing up that way is like, then I get people who validate or who
Taina Brown she/hers (31:17.534)
It's a thing. That's a big deal. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:44.4)
Also feel like inspired to use their voice to say I agree with you where they might not have otherwise, right? But whatever your way of showing up is figuring out what works for you because we can't all do all the things but one thing I do think we can all think about going back to Taylor Swift at the beginning of this Trying to make it all sort of work together is let's not forget the power of the purse and or wallet but like not forgetting that our money matters and where we spend it also like all of the caveats of like
Taina Brown she/hers (31:48.69)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:01.206)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:12.728)
If you got to use Amazon because that's what works for your life because you're disabled or whatever the reasons are, you live rural and you don't have other options. Like, okay, but figuring out the places, where can I say, I'm not putting my money behind this, right? Figuring out those things. don't personally, the Jimmy Kimmel thing, like I find him to be a problematic in a lot of ways. I don't think that was the big issue that we needed to all get behind. However, it did show us.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:25.718)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:38.258)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:41.358)
When we try, when we collectively say, we're gonna withhold money from you corporate bigwigs, you CEOs who don't care about us, we can make a difference. They caved immediately. I mean, it was within 24 hours of people canceling because they saw, shit, this is gonna cost us real money. They made a different decision, right? And we can do that in other ways. We see it happening with Target. Target stock price, because I bought before everything that happened, by the way, so I know this well.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:48.476)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:55.814)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:00.637)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:09.614)
I bought like one share, so I only have one share of Target. I would love to sell it, but now I would be taking a giant hit. like it's just sitting there. But I've noted stock price because of it. And because of the boycotts that are going on, their stock price has halved in a year, halved in a year. They will be having to make changes because of that. They can't continue, right? So these things matter. Costco is, business has boomed at the same time that Target has gone down. We are making those choices and we can continue to think about how we make those choices.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:23.75)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:28.411)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:33.787)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:38.832)
Do we need to give Taylor Swift another 30 of our hard earned dollars so that she can make an ad to her now? I think she's already over 2 billion. Remember when she just hit a billion, she's already doubled that. And again, if you don't understand how much a billion is, go look, because going from 1 billion to 2 billion is not like going from $1 to $2. It is an astronomical leap. And she's done that in the space of a year. Right. And she's done it space of a year or two. Do we need to continue to support
Taina Brown she/hers (33:54.086)
Go look, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:02.19)
I can't even wrap my head around it.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:08.88)
wealth hoarding, greed, unabashed greed, grifting, instead of saying that same $30, could I put it to a mutual aid? Can I do something for myself if I need to? That's also okay, right? But could I fund some sort of mutual aid? Could I put it towards something in my local community that's making a difference? Could I help a family that is trying to evade ICE in my local community? What are the things I could do with the same $30 instead of continuing to just give it to...
Taina Brown she/hers (34:33.227)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:37.676)
again, a billionaire who's just trying to amass more and more wealth. You can love her music, but you don't need the album twice just because she made a special print.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:41.286)
Yeah.
Yeah, just because it's a different color. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:47.876)
Right? Right? If we could just start to see that for what it is, like it makes me so angry. And it's not just her, you know, and then her fans will start getting like, why are we going after the women billionaire? Like I'm after all of them. I'm after all of them. I'm also after Beyonce, but I'm also after every man who's amassing wealth. Like all of them, we don't need that let them eat cake class.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:00.09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:09.638)
Yeah. Ugh.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:12.964)
I know, I know. I know, can you even fathom that level of wealth?
Taina Brown she/hers (35:13.894)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:17.788)
I can't like when, listen, when we watch House Hunters and people are like, our budget is 1.5 million. Like I can't even find that amount of wealth. I'm just like, how are you spending that much money on a house? And then I'm thinking, what is the upkeep for a house that costs that much? Like what are your monthly utility bills? Like what's your grocery bill? Like who's doing the cleaning? Who's doing the yard work? Like Jesus fucking Christ, that's a lot.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:20.526)
And why?
Becky Mollenkamp (35:31.544)
I always wonder where are you getting it from?
Becky Mollenkamp (35:38.33)
Well, I know because in my family.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:45.744)
I can tell you because I have very close exposure within my family to someone who bought a million dollar home, a McMansion, and with a pool and all the stuff, right? They have seven bathrooms for a family of four, two of whom have now left the home because they're now in college. So for a family of two, a couple, they have seven bathrooms and a giant ink-rown pool and all this stuff, right? They have to hire cleaners.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:59.109)
Who's cleaning seven fucking bathrooms?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:12.944)
They're constantly having to pay for things like they're getting a new roof today. We all have to do that. like just the constant, the same upkeep that you and I have times square footage times 10, right? For what? For what? And guess what?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:21.211)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our new roof was like almost $10,000. I can't imagine how much a new roof is for a house that large.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:31.382)
right, right. And guess what ends up happening? And I I think that they're having, at least half of that couple and maybe both, but definitely half, are experiencing the thing that I think happens to a lot of those people, is all of this. what was it all for? What was it for? They're gone now. Those few years they were there, the kids had parties and stuff. I'm sure it was great. They could have done the same thing in the house they were in before, which by the way, was also gorgeous and huge, just didn't have.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:49.531)
Well, what's the point? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:00.708)
But like, okay. And for what? Now it's like, now we have this, all this upkeep, all this work. Some of it we can outsource. Some of it we're doing ourselves. like, did it really fill whatever we thought it was going to? Probably not. But like, we all are made to believe it will. So like, I can also see that part of it where there are my moments too, and I'm sure you have them, where I think money is the answer to all of my problems. Money is the answer to some of my problems.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:08.568)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:18.521)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:25.338)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:29.317)
Some problems, yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:30.116)
And that's absolutely a fact. But I can get caught up into like, if I just had, if I had a pool, I've had those slots, I would love my own in-ground pool because you know, whatever. But do I really need one? Do I really want that upkeep when I see what it actually looks like? No. And I think about the same thing. Like if every room in my house was like a little bigger or if I had, you know, I can start to get in that same game where I'm like, if I just had this and this and this, that's going to somehow fill whatever it is. And I know that the truth is it won't.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:41.849)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:52.357)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:56.485)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:00.549)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:01.036)
Not having to worry about money, not having to be stressed constantly about how will we pay the bills, that is different. And that would solve a lot for me. But like the more, more, more stuff, I know it's not gonna do anything. even though sometimes it's hard and then it was like when you're in that daydream to believe, it won't really make me happier. The truth is what makes me happy is like those moments that my kid snuggles up with me. And we could do that on the side of the road or in my car if we had to, right? Like that's not what I want.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:06.671)
That, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:14.362)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:28.922)
Those are the, like, when I think about the things that actually bring joy in my life, it's rarely because my car is, like, we just upgraded cars because our 20-year-old car, finally, we had to get it, and it's a new used car. We upgraded from a 20-year-old to a 10-year-old car. So, like, please know, like, I'm not living some lavish life. That change was nice. Like, the new car, I can actually, like, plug in my phone instead of just, like, we were listening to CDs in my other car, because that's how outdated it was. It's nice.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:46.542)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:54.478)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (38:57.786)
But does it actually make me happier? Not really, because the thing that brings me joy in my car is the conversations I had with kid. We had those conversations in the other car and it was great. So like, I don't know. We really, think we all need to sit down and ask ourselves that enough. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:07.588)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:13.39)
What is enough? Yeah, what is enough? Yeah, because here's the thing. If you can afford the $1.5 million house and the upkeep and it is what you need, what you want, it's values aligned, you're not doing it out of some misplaced desire for belonging or status or whatever, fuck it, then go for it by all means.
buy the $1.5 million house, pay for the upkeep. I like nice things. I'm not a person who's like, no, we need to be shabby and this misplaced sense of humility and puritanical poverty or whatever. But the thing is, what is the motivation there? What is the intention? Is it for status? Is it?
for, you know, feeling like, once I get this thing, then I'll have this sense of achievement or whatever. That's where we get shit fucked up. it's like, no, you should want those things and get those things for yourself. Because from a place of feeling whole, not from a place of feeling like there's something missing in your life.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:39.62)
Yeah, have you watched White Lotus? you? I totally get it. We're watching it.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:42.304)
No, I just, can't. I can't. It feels very gratuitous.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:48.396)
It's this new season, which is not even new by now, but we're just finishing it. Whatever. Like last night I was saying, like, there's no redeeming qualities about almost anyone in any of the cast, right? Like the characters, they're just the most grotesque humans. And you're just watching, like, I'm not fully sure I understand why I'm even watching it. But okay, that aside, there is a moment in the new season though, and I think it was episode seven.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:05.678)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:17.104)
if anyone wants to see, it's Parker Posey. And she is part of this super wealthy family. We find out he's like losing all the money, gonna go to prison, he's wrestling with what to do with that. But they have three grown kids who are also accustomed to being very wealthy. The daughter who wants to be this better person. You can see she's like, she cares, right? She wants to be, she doesn't wanna be like the rest of them that are so materialistic and this is all they care about and all they think about is just like, they're vapid, they think about nothing.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:37.489)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:45.988)
So she decides she wants to join this monastery in Thailand where they're visiting. That's why they go there. She wants to check it out. She goes and spends a night there. The harsh reality of what it means to live in a monastery, it's slop, right? It's really not very good food. And she sleeps in this room that it's dirty and it's not nice and whatever. So she comes home the next day and her mom this whole time is like, you can't do this. How can you do this? And it's freaking out. But she goes and lets her stay.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:51.295)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:58.968)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:12.441)
That's your complaint?
Becky Mollenkamp (42:15.31)
She comes home, the daughter has to finally kind of tail between the legs admit. She was like, the food, I don't think any of it was organic. And she was like, and the bed was, right? She's like, the bed was so uncomfortable. And she was like, I just don't think I can do it. like, but she's struggling with it. She's like, what does this say about me? And I want to be like, you can see this internal battle she's having. And I think that's a real battle that a lot of people have of like, I want to be a better person. I want to give, want to, like, I feel like if there's other suffering,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:33.709)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44.688)
Who am I to have all of this? I should have less, whatever, right? inside of this grotesque story, I actually think there's something really kind of poignant going on there that I think a lot of people, especially with privilege, can understand of this feeling that we have of I have this privilege, I should sacrifice more. also, losing privilege is hard, right? I have a sticker on my computer that's from someone has said, when you are to the privileged, equality feels like oppression, right? So this loss of privilege is really hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:46.821)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:02.697)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:11.266)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:14.456)
And her mom says to her, and I think this sort of feeds into what you're saying here and what I'm thinking about as I hear it, which is we have all this wealth and for us to not enjoy it, what does that say to everyone who doesn't have wealth? We need to enjoy this wealth because if we don't, we're actually, like we live in a way that almost no one else can. And there's such a gift in that. And if we don't enjoy it, what message are we giving to the rest of those people? It is the most twisted.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:29.933)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:43.992)
version of this. But you can see that she believes that. Like in her mind, if we aren't enjoying all this that we have, it's like a big F you to people who have nothing. Which of course, in my head, I'm like, or, or how about this for an idea, you could maybe have less, give a lot of that away. And other people can have something too, right? But that's not in the in that realm of reality. So I do think there's something in between that and what you're talking about, like sure, buy the million dollar
Taina Brown she/hers (43:48.736)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54.573)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:02.807)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07.116)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:12.944)
house and enjoy it. But also I think only if that's coming with I do think there has to be some I don't want to say sacrifice because I don't think it's sacrifice but I think it's collective thinking. There has to be some collective thinking and if your thinking is so about only your comfort and only your enjoyment of beauty and all of that without any collective care that is grotesque. And again I think that's whether you are those people who have endless wealth somebody who has a million dollar house or somebody who's
Taina Brown she/hers (44:21.846)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:29.716)
Only you. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:37.004)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:42.562)
even only has a $30,000, like whatever it is. I think the problem is our individualistic thinking, right? And the lack of collective care. Does any of that ring true to you?
Taina Brown she/hers (44:43.788)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:50.059)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It does. It does. Because it's like, listen, if I had the means to buy a $1.5 million house and manage the upkeep without any fear of at some point going into foreclosure because we can't all of a sudden pay our utility bills because we lost a stream of income or something, I would purchase that house. But it wouldn't just be about me, right?
the house would become a space for people, right? Like I've had this conversation with my wife or my wife and I to get together collectively. I've had this conversation multiple times where it's like, don't, when it comes to our home, like our home is not just for us, it's for our community. It's supposed to be a space for our community, whether that means gathering over meals or.
you know, having a spare room for someone who might need it or, you know, or hosting like bonfires, you know, like it's supposed to be like, it's not, we're not, we're not looking at things from like this very individualistic perspective. And yes, it's our safe space. It's the space that we feel like is ours where we can just like let our hair down and just like relax or whatever. And so there are definitely boundaries with that. It's not like, it's not like
totally on the opposite end of the spectrum where it's like, it's a free for all and we don't have any privacy or any sense of individuality. there's a balance there. I think it gives me the ick when people have a home and then they have friends who are coming to visit and they don't offer a space for someone to stay.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29.69)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:43.678)
You know what I mean? Something about that is just like, that's like in the very smallest sense, I think, of just collective thinking versus individual thinking. And I get it if there's a valid reason for that, right? If you just don't have the space or if it's out of time. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:53.882)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:01.722)
Well, not million, how she better. But also I'm deeply introverted and I don't love people in my space. there are, I think we expect, well, I think I'm talking and I think again, with anything, we can't also ignore the fact that we're coming from two different places around privilege with identity. And so I think I'm speaking to people who share more privilege, right? Around race specifically, but other types of privilege as well, because I think that makes a difference too, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (47:07.424)
I don't love people in my space either. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:24.192)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:31.632)
What I'm thinking of are these white folks, because these characters in the show were specifically white folks as well, of course. I mean, that's one of my issues with White Lotus because it focuses on such wealth. It tends to also then focus on a lot of white characters. anyway, but, and the people I know in my life who then now won't put up any political signs in their yard so as not to disturb the neighbors or cause issues, cause ripples. That's where I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (47:44.778)
beautiful white people, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:00.77)
Are you now, are you voting in ways that protect your new class, this class that you're in versus the collective, right? Are you no longer using your voice because you don't wanna alienate people in this other class versus thinking collectively, right? So like, you now so house poor that you can't even give any money to enter the things that matter, right? So like, yeah, I think if you can buy the million dollar house.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:07.413)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:14.367)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:25.108)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:28.744)
million-dollar house, which you also still have. That's because you have enough money to be giving in ways that represent your values, right? That you're now, you're still using your voice to fight for everyone else. That you're not voting in ways that only support your million-dollar home, but those who can't afford a home. That, I guess, is what I'm saying. But also, I think a lot of that is most incumbent upon those with the most privilege, right? Whereas I also, there's this current debate, not debate, but like,
Taina Brown she/hers (48:33.129)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:42.741)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:51.209)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:56.728)
discussion happening on social media amongst a lot of women specifically, but black people in general saying like, we're done. This fight's yours, right? We're done fighting. I'm going to just sit here and say, how do I survive? How can I thrive within the moment? This is your battle to fight, right? We've been fighting. I've been fighting for your rights in addition to mine forever. And now you're turning it on. Like, why aren't you fighting for your rights with us?
Taina Brown she/hers (49:20.454)
Mm-hmm
Taina Brown she/hers (49:25.299)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:25.486)
instead of seeing it as your fight. And that is so valid, right? And so I think in the same way, if you have been, like if your ancestry has been in a place of like fighting just to be able to survive, and now you're able to afford a million dollar home, and your family can have safety and peace and comfort and rest and all of that, like, I'm not here as somebody with privilege and with white privilege to say, no, you need to do more, right? Like, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:51.09)
You should have that yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:53.314)
I'm speaking very much to people who have the most privilege, with that privilege does that responsibility to say, I need to be thinking collectively because historically, anyone who's looked like me has not thought collectively. Whereas folks who look like you have thought collectively, right? Historically, out of necessity, right? For safety and protection.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:56.841)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:04.851)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:11.773)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:13.424)
And the absolute opposite was true for the white folks who have not thought collectively for the exact same reason to preserve power. Right. And so I think now it's like, I think that has to also be part of any discussion around like wealth, which is why I think as much as Beyonce's wealth also annoys me, right. I'm much more fixated on Taylor's wealth and or Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and like all the white folks amassing wealth. Because for every one Rihanna or Beyonce, there are
Taina Brown she/hers (50:36.102)
Yeah, yeah, because of their, their ancestral.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:42.86)
endless more white folks and let's fight the real fight first and then we can talk about you know anyone else.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:44.318)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. hear that. Oof.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:55.532)
How do you want to end this conversation?
Taina Brown she/hers (50:57.532)
I think I want to end this conversation by reminding people, consider what is enough for you. And remember, it's about iteration. How are you iterating your means of survival in a way that's expansive, not just staying on that hamster wheel? And in order to iterate, again, you have to start small. You cannot go big and expect to be able to iterate because
Becky Mollenkamp (51:02.724)
Yes, I think. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:25.917)
Going big is gonna take all your fucking energy and you're not gonna have anything left to iterate. And it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:29.604)
And it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. Yeah. You're not changing Trump's mind. You're not changing the hearts of the Senate folks who have been bought and paid for by corporations. Like we're not changing Taylor Swift either as much as I'm harping on her. We're not changing her. It's clear. I might change a Swifty. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think that's important. And I would just add that to say with the enough yes and challenge yourself about why enough.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:42.055)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we might change our neighbor's mind who is obsessed with Taylor Swift, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:59.12)
feels like a bad thing. If that idea of enough feels limiting to you, I would really challenge yourself to think about why. Because I think for many of us it does, so there's not a judgment in there. It is like an invitation to explore that and to do some unpacking there, because I think we have been made to feel that way. And then on the piece of iterating, I just would say too, keep, even if it feels like you've asked the same question a thousand times, what can I do? What change can I do? Keep asking it.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:07.217)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:11.707)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:27.278)
It's not, like you said, it's not a hamster wheel. It is allowing the space around that that is needed for answers to eventually begin to appear. It's when we stop asking that the problem is gonna real, you know, that problem. So I love.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:27.325)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:37.97)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you said about enough, interrogating why sometimes that might feel like scarcity. Because when you ask yourself, you decide for yourself what is enough, right? If you say, if you have an idea of what enough is and it feels like scarcity, then move the line.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:01.7)
Yeah. But if the line, if there is never an end to that line, ask yourself why? Like, what does that say? Is that how you want to show up in the world? Because also if there, it's that hedonic treadmill, right? That if you can never be satiated, you will never be satiated. And what does that mean? That to me is where the scarcity lies. And the idea that I could never be content. no.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:08.199)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:15.644)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:20.369)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and nothing is ever enough.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:32.228)
Yeah, so all right.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:33.683)
then you're reaching for nothing, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:36.304)
Yes. All right. Listen, I didn't know what we going talk about. We did it. In fact, we did a lot. And it was really good. So thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:45.235)
You're welcome.