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Convos with the creative folk shaping the arts and culture in the San Francisco Bay Area. Hosted by Shawna Vesco Ahern.
Demetri
[00:00:00]
This is an art yap. It is an art yap. We're talking art yap. Yappity, yappity, yappity, yap. Art yap. Yappity, yappity, yap. Artfully, artfully, artfully, artfully. Yappity, yappity, yap.
It's time
Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. I'm Shana Vesco-Ahern, and this is Art Yap, the podcast where I gab with Bay Area creatives about imagination, arts, culture, and everything in between. Today's guest is Demetri Broxton, someone who I think practices radical attention in his artistic practice [00:01:00] as well as in his general disposition toward the creative community he builds at Root Division as executive director.
Today's guest is Demetri Broxton, someone who I think practices radical attention in his artistic practice as well as in his general disposition toward the creative community he builds at Root Division as executive director. Demetri is an Oakland-born artist who takes photographs of ancestors, some named, some lost to time, and brings them back through an act of almost impossible attention.
Bead by bead, stitch by stitch, he places them into futures they were never allowed to have. His work is in the collection of the de Young, and right now he is having a moment. His very first museum solo at MOAD and a public art piece going up in the community where his own family put down roots. We sat together inside an interactive art installation, fabric all around us filled with lavender, the warm air carrying the scent through the [00:02:00] whole conversation.
It felt like the right place to talk about what it means to lead for other artists while keeping your own creative fire alive, what his family thought when he chose art over everything else, and what happens when a stranger stands in front of your artwork and starts to cry. This one felt like a conversation I needed to have, and I hope you feel the same way.
So perk up, lean in, bead by bead, let's get into [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] it.
Welcome to Art Yap. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you so much for coming on. I know you're a busy little bumblebee. Uh, I, follow your Insta, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna have public art popping up here.
Also this stuff's going on at Root Division, where I happen to be executive director. Also, my art and my studio making this thing, and it's just like you have so many things happening all at once. how does that feel for you? And I mean that in the sense of, like, you're doing arts leadership, but you're also still trying to practice your own art.
how are you balancing all of this? Or maybe you're not. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good question, and it's one that I ask myself on a regular basis. Like, how are you doing this? Um, you know, and I, I wish my life was a marathon, but the universe doesn't really want it to work that way. Mm-hmm. And so it is, I feel like my life is just a whole series of sprints where I'm running really fast to [00:06:00] get to the finish line, and then there's another race that happens.
But, um, no, like on a serious way to kind of answer that question, for me, it's really been about I've worked outside of the arts. Mm-hmm. And I've worked in the arts, and I noticed that when I am in a creative environment during my 9:00 to 5:00 period, and being an executive director is not 9:00 to 5:00, but you know- Mm-hmm
if I'm gonna pretend that it's limited to 40 hours a week, that's the kind of thing that gives me energy at the end of the day to go into my studio and be productive and, and keep it going. Mm-hmm. And so what was this residency you just did? Uh, yeah. Was that the storytelling one, or is that a different thing?
This is a different one. So- Oh my goodness. ... I, I was invited to Arrowmont School of Arts and Crafts in, uh, Gatlinburg, Tennessee. Mm-hmm. And they do this thing twice a year where they invite- Mm ... a group of artists to come. This, the one in the spring is a one-week- Mm-hmm ... uh, experience, and you just... 100 artists come together and- 100?
in the [00:07:00] Smoky Mountains, and so from all over the country. Oh my gosh. And you just make art together, and it was, like, the coolest experience I, I think I've ever had, honestly. And everyone's, like, in a different discipline or like- Yes. I mean, they have... I was in, in the textiles department. Mm-hmm. Um, but they also have a metal shop, and I spent most- Ooh
of my time in the metal shop- Interesting ... having so much fun because I don't have access to that normally. Mm-hmm. They have ceramics and painting and, and kind of found out that a lot of people are cross-disciplinary. Yeah. And so being in that, in that kind of a space allows you to just play and talk to people and meet people from all over the country that otherwise, I don't know if I'd ever meet these people.
It was a blast. That's what I was gonna ask, too, about, like, 'cause I don't know much, but, like, residencies are different from grants in that, like, for something like a week residency, you don't have to have, like, a final show you all do, or do you have something like that where you have to, like, do a collaborative thing that they- Yeah, they...
I mean, they, they had us, they, they did this really cool thing, and I'm like, "I wanna adopt it for every division," where you just [00:08:00] make a, a little artwork. Mm. And then they, they have, um, a, a thing they call an auction where you get a, everyone gets a ticket and your name gets randomly called. Mm-hmm. And you run to the table and grab, you know, something that another artist made.
And- That is a hardcore auction. It is hardcore. And you know, and then you're, you're not stealing, so it's- Yeah ... it's not that, that version of it, so you get what you get. And everyone, like, you feel pressured because you're like, "Oh, these are h- highly craft-oriented artists." Mm-hmm. "And it has to be good." And so I feel like I put more energy into this little tiny six-inch piece, which is the smallest piece I've ever made- Yeah
by the way. That's what I was gonna ask next. I was like, "You work large, though." Yeah. Yeah. So just, you know, just really had to scale down. I actually finished a piece while I was there because- Mm ... you know, it's like, I'm just gonna scale way down. Mm-hmm. Um, and it'll be great. That's crazy. Yeah, anyone, you can walk through.
Oh, okay. We're super caszh. Some folks that wanna see a show. Oh. Okay, you guys can come down. We can just wait for them to [00:09:00] have a peek around, or we can keep talking. It's up to you. It's, it, what- whatever you wanna do. We can cut it out. Hi. Oh, hey. Hi. Yeah, why don't we pause and l- Yeah ... and let you, let you get a looky-loo.
This a podcast? It is a podcast. Yeah. Hello. How are you? Good. How are you doing? Great to see you.
This is just a quick voiceover to note that we were interrupted in our conversation by a lovely family coming to interact with the exhibition that we were sitting in. Totally fine. Don't mind that at all. And then good friend of the podcast and good friend of Wallbox Gallery, Shrey, showed up. You'll know him from his Instagram, from his postcard club, and from his multiple appearances in the SF Chronicle.
Um, so we'll tag Shrey below
Sounds great. Okay. Happy, happy yapping.
Thank you. That's so funny. Yeah, he's the best. Yeah, he did a show at Wallbox, my weird gallery that I run- Yeah, man ... inside of a biotech campus. Now how do... I mean, that's something, like how do you do all that?
Oh, I mean, I don't know. It's kinda [00:10:00] crazy with the two toddlers. Yeah. But it was the same thing you were describing, where I feel more energized the more I put into something like art- Yeah ... and especially community art. Exactly. And I just felt like I started coming back to life, even though it was taking me out of the house and, like- Oh
eating up hours and eating up energy and eating up organizational skills that I don't really have bandwidth for. You get so much back from doing it, that it just powers you through. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm feeling that now too working at SFMOMA. It's... Obviously, any institution has its problems, and we all have been around and heard about the layoffs and the different leadership changes and all those.
The best colleagues of my life. Oh. The smartest, most- What? ... most ambitious, most talented- Crazy ... people are at SFMOMA, and I am alive. Yes, yeah, yeah. Like, just talking with these people at lunch, like, everyone's so creative in their own thing that they pursue. It's just, like, so energizing. Um, back to what we were talking about, which was your mini, tiny little artwork.
Um. Ruby, you can copy me- [00:11:00] I watch your little reels- ... on Instagram, and you had one where you were zoomed out and you were making, like, a larger piece, and I was like, "Dang, does he go into a meditative process or what when you're working?" Like, what are you thinking about when you're doing it? Are you actually thinking, like, artful, intelligent thoughts?
Or sometimes are you like, "My grocery list, I gotta get lentils. I gotta get a tomato." Like, do you reserve, is it sacred space when you're creating? I mean, you know, I, I wanna say that, yeah, this is sacred space and I'm totally meditative and I'm Zenning out, and that is actually probably true 80% of the time.
Um- Yeah ... but there's always this moment where I'm heading towards the end of the piece where I'm like, "Okay, can this thing be over with right now?" Like- Mm-hmm ... because it's so repetitive. Um, and, you know, there's this part where I'm working on it and it's, it's really, I'm, like, connecting with my ancestors.
Mm-hmm. I feel like I'm getting to know them, and I feel like on a spiritual level I'm deeply connecting with them- Mm-hmm ... and actually getting [00:12:00] to know them. Um, but yeah, at the end, like this big piece that I'm trying to finish right now this week, I'm just like, "Oh, can I just be done already?" I, I do find out that because I'm sewing- Mm-hmm
and the beads stick up, so the thread is very, very tiny. So if I drift off into- Mm ... some thinking about, like, the world and my life- Mm-hmm ... I usually make a mistake and- Right ... the thread gets stuck, and sometimes it gets stuck and I can't untangle and I have to tie off. And so it's almost like a spiritual practice where it's like I can't drift off too far- Mm-hmm
onto other topics. Always tethered to what you're doing. Yeah, or I just lose focus altogether and- That's- ... make a mess ... that's so funny that the materiality of your practice brings you back down- Yeah, yeah ... into the earth and doesn't let you go up into theoretical land. I can't, yeah, I can't go into, like, thinking about taxes and bills and- Yeah
and all those things. It's good that your artwork keeps you in check. Yeah, yeah. And makes your politics and your ethics tied to materiality. Exactly. I think that's healthy for you. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's one of the things that I love the most [00:13:00] about it, right? Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause I've asked, I've had people constantly ask me, "Well, then why are you choosing to do it this way?"
People are always telling me that I should learn tambour beading. Mm-hmm. And you can't... or, you know, you can't... it looks different because you're literally stitching each individual thing down. Mm-hmm. But the way that I'm stacking the bead on top of a sequin, you can't do that with tambour beading. Yeah. And so it's also just like- No, this method works for me.
I, I don't think that I'm meant to have a faster way of working at this moment. Maybe it'll come to me later AI's not gonna replace you. Yeah, AI can- cannot redo this. Um- And so for people listening, and obviously, like, I'll put up a few images so people can understand what your art is, this is what's so fun for me.
Now you have to verbally give the audience, give our dear listeners a description of what your art is, and I'm so curious how you're gonna describe it. What kind of art do you do? Yeah. So I'll just say that I start off with, uh, images from the archive, usually from my family's- Mm-hmm ... uh, personal archive of ancestral [00:14:00] photographs.
Or sometimes I go onto, uh, publicly accessible collections like the Library of Congress. Mm-hmm. I'm pulling images mostly of African Americans pre-1940s. Mm-hmm. And I screen print them so they're much larger. Mm-hmm. So I could work with a tin type that's, like, maybe two inches by one inch in size. Mm-hmm. And I'm blowing it up to, you know, three foot by four foot or even larger.
That's the base, and I do that on cotton fabric, and then I go in and I remove the background with sequins and beads. So hence I'm locking in sequins with one individual bead at a time until the whole surface is complete, uh, completely filled except for the person- Mm-hmm ... who is the center of the subject.
Does that make sense? I hope that, that's like a good visual for people that kind of- No, that's a great, that's a really good visual And then it also, again, gives me, coming from my context, like again, like we're talking like prayer beads, meditative, the repetition of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure you have like a little blister or callus [00:15:00] where you do those.
Oh, absolutely. I can't feel things on, you know, my pointer fingers as though... When did you know, was it a kid or a teen, that you were an artistic person? We're not gonna say artist, 'cause that's a whole can of worms, and we can get to it, but when did you know that you were artful, and you had this in you, and you had to express yourself through these various ways?
When did you get that realization about yourself? I mean, I think I was always around art, not traditional art, not art that you would see in museums, but my family was always artistic in the way that they dress- Mm-hmm ... the way that we decorate our environment. And you're West Oakland, right? Like, you're fr- E- East Oakland
East Oakland, okay. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, just like- Sorry, get it straight ... it's, it's a big distinction I gotta get it straight. No, I know that. So, so yeah, I grew up in East Oakland. Uh, and my family migrated from, part of my family migrated from the South- Mm-hmm ... uh, in the 1940s. Another part of my family migrated from the Philippines in the 1950s.
Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, I, I just think everything had this feel and this look. Mm-hmm. And I wanted [00:16:00] to access this. So as a little kid, I mean, I was really into drawing. I was into, you know, painting- Mm-hmm ... a little bit. But I would say it wasn't until I got to high school and I took a photography class. Mm-hmm.
I was, it was black and white photography in the lab, and I started just taking photos of my friends, and they were responding. And for me, it was like, just a class that seemed like it would be fun and different. Mm-hmm. But the way that my friends responded, I was like, "Oh, maybe I am an artist." And then when I went to UC Berkeley- Mm-hmm
uh, I initially went there for architecture. Interesting. I didn't really wanna go into art necessarily. Mm-hmm. But I took my first art class. Uh, this was around, this is the late '90s. They were going to- Mm-hmm ... get rid of the art department, because they thought it was losing money, and so several of us started taking classes.
And I had a, an instructor that looked like me. Mm-hmm. You know, she was like this, uh, her name was Tree Williams, and she's this, uh, like Erykah [00:17:00] Badu-like figure, very like earthy- Mm-hmm ... hippie, but like really had an edge to her. Mm-hmm. And she was my painting teacher. I had never really seriously thought about painting before.
Mm-hmm. And instantly I was like, "This is the life that I wanna have." Mm. Of course, I changed, and I, I don't paint anymore. Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, it's working with the beads and the sequins are still, I'm still playing with color theory, so a lot of my- Mm-hmm ... painting training still comes through. Um- Through what I do right now.
Mm-hmm. Even though it's not technically, you know, traditional painting. And your family at this time, you're switching and you're like, "I think I'm gonna be an artist." And they're like, "The fuck you are." Uh-huh. "You need to make money." Yeah. Or were they totally supportive? They weren't at all, and so- ... you know, I, I just remember I was like, so what happened, what ha- actually happened was sophomore year, first, first term, so I did freshman year all the way through with architecture.
I mean, yeah. Get to s- get to sophomore year, um, I'm partying all weekend long, really [00:18:00] not loving these architecture classes. I get to midterms and I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna fail every single test," like, "What am I doing?" Mm-hmm. "Not into this." So called up my parents and was like, "I'm gonna withdraw from all my classes."
They freaked because, you know, my parents were like- This is UC Berkeley you got into. Yeah. They're like, "No matter what you do, you've gotta get this degree." They're like, "We don't care what you do," which is not true. Mm-hmm. They did care what I did. Um- Yeah ... and so, you know, took the rest of that semester off, came back and I was like, "You know what?
I'm switching to art." And my parents were finally like, "We just want you to finish school. We don't care what you do." But they were really concerned. They're like, "You can't move back in with us." I moved out of the house when I was 15 and I went to boarding school. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I deported myself to boarding school.
Right? I was like, "I don't wanna be at home." And I was like, "I'm never moving back in with you." You've always loved residencies. Right? I was like, "I'm never moving back in with you," and I never did, right? Yeah. Um, s- so they were just concerned. You know, there's the- Mm-hmm ... the [00:19:00] myth of the starving artist. Yeah.
Um, but, you know, I've proven. I was like, I've, I've never had to move back home. I've been low on money multiple times in my life. Yeah. But, you know, I've always made it through, a- you know, working within the arts. I'm so curious, when you're, like say you're at a cocktail party, it's sort of a mixed crowd, you don't really know who's there, and you're just chatting with someone, and they're like, "Oh," like, "what do you do?"
Do you say first, "I'm the executive director at Root Division," or do you say, "Oh, I'm an artist"? Which comes out of your mouth first? I always say I'm an artist first. Interesting. Um, I try to lead everything with that, and I think even as I, as the executive director of Root Division, I still lead that I'm an artist who also is an executive director.
Mm-hmm. Um, because me being in- this, you know, kind of art-centered space- Mm-hmm ... is because I'm an artist, and that's what I bring with me- Mm-hmm ... every day. Um, I'm always thinking about my work. Um, and it's not something I wanna put on the back burner. Yeah. I mean, I've talked to [00:20:00] lots of executive directors, and they're like, "I lost time to be an artist."
You know? And so they often have to leave their job. And I'm like, "I won't be that person. I'm gonna keep my art front and center." Mm-hmm. Um, and that is what informs how I think and how I move as an executive director. Now, I'd be very shocked if any of our listeners didn't know what Root Division is. But just in case, you never know, we might have a new person, um, of our 400 listeners.
401 listeners, new listener, this is what Root Division is. I love it. So yeah, Root Division is a connected ecosystem of art studios. We have 20 arts- artist studios- Mm-hmm ... um, that are all, uh, either free or, uh, half of the market rate- Mm-hmm ... for artists to rent. We have, uh, art galleries, three of them, one of which we're sitting in right now.
Um, and then we have education programs. And so all of this is in support of... Really, artists can be with us for two years, and all of this is in support of them [00:21:00] moving to the next level- Mm-hmm ... of their art career, and also for us contributing to the larger arts ecosystem of San Francisco. And what's gonna be...
I mean, all that sounds good. I love it. Obviously, I love it. But what's your, like, calling card like? If and when you leave Root Division, you're gonna look back and be like, "I did that." Like, what's that gonna be? I mean, I think right now, like, the main thing is for us really to be a, a support for artists as institutions like CCA are announcing their closure.
Like, where do artists find space? Where do they find community and then the resources that they need- Mm-hmm ... to actually be successful? And I think, you know, if I can get Root Division to really be that organization that's seen as filling in that void- Mm-hmm ... that's being left by, you know, the galleries, and we had SFAI close and- A little nervous about Academy of Art right now.
Me too. Um, you know- Mm-hmm ... with them selling off buildings left and right. It's like I think they may be going that way. Mm-hmm. So what other [00:22:00] resources left in San Francisco for an artist who is, you know, wanting to, to just have access to galleries and to exhibitions and space? And, like, professionalization.
I saw you do, like, portfolio reviews. Yeah, yeah. Stuff like that is, like, no one thinks about it, but it's so critical to kind of get that objective look at how you're marketing yourself out there, 'cause it is all marketing and capitalism. Absolutely. So how do you, how do you function in the system? How are you appearing?
Can you approach corporations and try and do corporate art? Like, what's your portfolio doing? Yeah, yeah. Like, that's a really cool workshop that you do. Yeah, and our portfolio review, I mean, it's all gallerists and curators. Um, so I think that's what kind of distinguishes it from the one that CCA does- Mm-hmm
for, you know, for new students. It's like, no, this is... If you wanna get to that next level, you wanna be in front of galleries, you wanna be in front of museum curators, this is, this is a pathway. Mm-hmm. And so, um, you know, artists just need feedback from as many sources as they can get it [00:23:00] from, um, if they're open to it.
And that can really, you know, launch a career to the next level. Yeah, 'cause not everyone's open to actually taking that feedback and implementing it into how they approach their work. I've kinda noticed that at Wallbox. I use it like an educational training thing, 'cause my background is education. And so it's a weird space in a biotech campus, and people ask me, like, "Oh, how should I do pricing?"
Yeah, yeah. "How should I do marketing? Is it just Instagram, or, like, should I do this? Should I do that?" I'm like, "This is the place to play." Yeah. Mark your shit up 30%. There you go. I don't take commission. Oh. People might think it's more valuable- Yeah ... if it costs more. Yeah. And whatever. If it doesn't work, we'll jack it down.
There's a 30% off sale for VIP clients. There you go. There you go. Like... And so it's just like come and play and, like, just try a new thing. Oh my gosh, I love that. That's incredible. Um, and I'm just thinking, like, what you're doing here is obviously so important, and everyone in the artistic community, like, really gets it.
And this is another short voiceover to let y'all know Dimitri and I [00:24:00] got talking about a whole bunch of stuff, and we completely forgot to discuss his solo exhibition at MOAD and his public art project. Um, and so after I packed up all my equipment, I just pulled out the old iPhone and did some on-the-ground journalistic reporting, which I will splice in here for you
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Okay. So I just walked around the corner to MOAD, um, with Miss Jasmine Ross, who is another emerging artist who's exhibiting alongside you. Um, tell the kind folks about your work at MOAD, 'cause it's, like, pretty awesome that you're part of their emerging artist cohort.
What is it, the 10th one?
Demetri Broxton: Yeah. Yeah It's the 10th anniversary, which I'm so excited. I've always wanted to be a part of this, this program. Um, and you get a solo exhibition in a museum, so it'll be my first museum solo exhibition. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's really going to be focused on the work that I've been making over the last two years, um, these beaded, uh, [00:25:00] ancestor portraits.
Um, but they're also wanting to... It's kind of... They're kinda doing a retrospective, so my work from 10 years ago all the way to today are, uh, is all gonna be in conversation with each other, and I'm so excited- Ooh ... to see it. That's interesting. I really love this program. I don't know. I think emerging artists have a lot to say, and they don't get the space that they deserve in galleries and museums.
Um, like, I was walking through with Jasmine, and I was like, "Wow, this barbershop thing you're doing is just-" So incredible ... incredible. And then I was listening, not gonna talk about it here, but, like, she has other projects coming up. She's gonna go to New Orleans, and I just can't wait to see what she does next, and it's so nice to have such a professional space that...
The MOAD building is just, like- Yeah, yeah ... so sleek and clean and modern. I can't wait to see your work in that room, and you can even, like, finally paint the walls, so it's all- Exactly ... part of the exhibition. You could do the didactics, like, on the wall. Yeah. You don't always get that when you're in, like, white boxes or group exhibitions.
[00:26:00] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, they wanna keep it clean. Yeah. And then also, I mean, I get to work with Kijio Lee, who is an incredible, brilliant curator. Mm-hmm. And so as an emerging artist, you don't have access to a museum curator usually. Mm. So it's like writing the text panels and making my work sound so much smarter than I can make it sound, which is great.
Do you feel a lot of pressure on this somehow, or just- There is pressure because, you know, you want, you... I don't wanna do it half-ass. So I want to show, you know, everything that I do in the best light, and I want people to have a reaction to it- Mm-hmm ... um, immediately, so I have to do it the correct way. Lily!
Ooh. A pug just showed up. Do we wanna do a plug for your giant public art project that's coming up? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I was selected, uh, as the artist for the Mandela Station public art project, and my work's gonna go on the affordable, um, building that they're putting up first. So all the units are at an affordable rate- Mm
uh, for folks, and so there's just a lot [00:27:00] of... I'm really excited because I was born and raised in Oakland, still live in Oakland. Mm-hmm. And I've always wanted to have a public art project. I was gonna ask, is this your first one? It's my very first one, and I've always wanted to have one. And I, and it was important for me that it was in Oakland- Mm-hmm
where, you know, my roots are, where I've been raising my kids. Mm-hmm. Where my family first migrated to. I mean- Just so many things, um, but I get to work with different community members to get their feedback- Mm-hmm ... so that the, whatever I produce at the end, I have full buy-in- Mm-hmm ... um, from everyone who's gonna actually live with it on a day-to-day basis.
That's so thoughtful. I kind of hate creating something for a community and being like, "Here you go, you guys." Yeah, yeah. And this way it really is coming from them and with their blessing. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, it's so important 'cause, you know, everyone i- has been taken advantage of or displaced and, you know, there's a, there's a lot of lack of trust in West Oakland for great reason because if you just look at the history of, of that part of the [00:28:00] city- Mm-hmm
um, they shouldn't trust anyone that comes in. And so, you know, it's important for me that I build that trust- Mm-hmm ... and I solicit their feedback and their input and, yeah, get that final blessing. How important do you think it is for individuals and communities to see themselves in art in their public spaces?
And do you think, like, even if a bunch of people won't notice it or it doesn't resonate, like, how do you think it shapes an entire city to have public art? I mean, I think when the, when the community is involved, they take ownership, uh, and it, they, they really feel like the work belongs to them. They'll protect it.
Mm-hmm. They'll speak about it, you know, and it'll become this important part of their identity. Mm-hmm. You know, if you just come in and you think that you're the savior and you're bringing something to this community- Mm-hmm ... you know, it's as if they don't already have culture- Mm-hmm ... um, going on. They don't already know how to make beautiful things.
Um, they're not gonna appreciate it. They're not gonna like it, and then people will walk past and, and ignore it.
Is it [00:29:00] something that your family gets? They were so skeptical maybe of this art career. Do they understand you as successful, and how has your definition of success for yourself changed over time? Yeah, I mean, I think my family... I, I don't think anyone gets it- ... you know, to be honest. You know, they're like, "Oh, that's so great.
That's so cool." I mean, they get the title executive director- Mm-hmm ... and they know that there's some cachet- Mm-hmm ... to that, but they're like, "I don't understand." And I, I left the museum field. Yeah. And so the museum field definitely is elevated in people's minds- For sure ... and prestigious, and so to go to a relatively smaller, um, you know, nonprofit, they're just like, "What are you doing with it?"
But I mean, I think when- whenever I have successes, you know, I s- I send them, like, "We got the Andy Warhol grant." Mm-hmm. "We just got an NEA grant." I, so I send them those things, and they're like, "This is great." Um, you know, the- You're like, "You don't get it, you guys." Yeah, yeah. You know, they, they, they, they get that someone in the [00:30:00] world recognizes the work that we do, but I don't think they ever get it.
I don't think most of my family even gets, like, why I wanna be an artist. They're- Yeah ... they're like, "You work so hard, you know? You're not the next Picasso or, I don't know, Kehinde Wiley, so what are you doing?" Hmm. That part they don't really get. I wonder, do they kind of like get what you're doing in your work with like ancestry and connecting through this artistic practice, or is that kind of too on an abstract level too?
Yeah, I think for them it's, it's very abstract, but they think it's cool. Mm-hmm. They think it's really interesting. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, I try to talk to them about like, you know, I'm transporting them from the time that they lived in into these new futurist worlds where all of their dreams have come true and- Yeah, I'm literally imagining- Yeah
futures that were foreclosed for our ancestors. Yeah, exactly. Ooh, I love that. That's a great way to put that. And they're like, "Cute." Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't think they, they, they quite get it. Um, and it's okay. They don't need to get it. So for me, success is not about [00:31:00] that acceptance. Mm-hmm. It's about, you know, uh...
For me, it's the success of when I have a show, and sometimes nothing sells at the show. Mm-hmm. But I get people coming up to me, and they have this visceral response. Oftentimes, you know, people end up in tears because the work reminds them of someone in their family. Mm-hmm. And so those are the, those are the moments where I'm like, "Okay, I, I think I'm doing something, uh, that's worthy, that's valuable, not just for myself but for others as well."
I'm gonna ask you a question. Mm-hmm. In this little brainstorm sesh, we can cut this out if it doesn't go well. 'Cause this literally is just something I'm interested in. When we're talking about like someone like your family not kind of, you know, fully getting this remarkable emotional and intellectual and historically significant project that your art practice is, let's assume that most of the population kind of just doesn't get it.
Yeah, yeah. They don't get art, they don't get humanities, and I think we're seeing that reflected- Oh, absolutely ... on a national level with funding and just like with interest in these kinds of questions. And [00:32:00] then inside our little bubble, 'cause the arts world and especially in SF- Yeah, yeah ... is a little bubble, we fucking get it.
We understand that we need art and humanities to have healthy, thriving communities, to have emotional intelligence, to have a shared democratic future- Mm-hmm ... that is equitable. We need to have the arts and humanities to discuss these things and to come together and to move through it. We get it. How do we break this bubble and get those people who don't care, wouldn't maybe get it?
And I just don't have any answers for this. The most I came up with literally was putting an art gallery in a weird fucking place. Yeah, yeah. Because when I was working for San Mateo County, I would hang art where you go for jury duty, and I'd be there. They're like, "Oh, are you the artist?" It's like, "No, I'm the curator."
Yeah. And they're like, "'Cause this is great. I've been here all week reading the materials on the walls." Nice. "This is... Like I'm staring at it like I need to buy it. I need to have it." And they wouldn't go to an art show. They wouldn't go to a First Thursday. They wouldn't come to Root Division. But something about it grabbed them.
They were just going to jury duty, going about their life- Incredible ... and it grabbed them. How do we [00:33:00] do that more? And like is it just more public art? Is it like... How do we reach the people who really don't know that they need art? I, I wish I had an, an, an clear, crisp answer for that question. Yeah. I mean, you know, we're in San Francisco.
We're, we're going through this new AI tech boom. Mm-hmm. And that's who is moving into the city, displacing other people, that those of us who've been here the longest, and that's obviously artists included. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, they're not... They're, they're buying temporary art or, like, things that are hip.
No shade, they're buying Kaws. Like, I went to a tech bro's house and it was like- Excuse me, I work at SFMOMA. You take that back right now. Yeah, and it was like, oh my gosh, and you have like 20 Kaws figures, like, what's going on in here? So I mean, I don't know how you get folks to understand that. You know, I've talked to board members about this, like, those, those...
and I'm gonna call them [00:34:00] tech bros. I know there's tech women or tech sisses. Mm. I don't know what we call them as well. Tech sisses is too cute. Tech sisses, right? Um, but you know, it's just like them understanding that that investment goes further. You're, you're supporting your local economy. You're also, you know, buying into artwork that is more likely going to appreciate in value.
Mm-hmm. Um, because, you know, you're discovering someone at their early stages. But also, when you become, you know, members of places like Root Division, SFMOMA, you have access to, uh, other folks that are high society, that have money, that have access, and it's just like, why wouldn't you wanna be in that space?
Mm-hmm. The, the things that they do, um, or that they're putting their money into- Mm-hmm ... is not gonna have that same return for them. So I don't, I don't know what- Yeah ... would create that culture shift. Mm-hmm. Um, but, but I have to believe that it's possible. Um, you know, the other dotcom booms and other tech booms we've had, um, those folks have [00:35:00] aged, and they are, you know- Mm
they are art patrons now. So hopefully the AI dudes do the same thing. You know, and like where I've been setting my sights recently is, like, UCSF and neuroscience. Oh, wow. Um, Dr. Bruce Miller, go Google him, everyone. He's extremely cool and a well-renowned neuroscience professor, professor, professional professor, and he just got a $100 million grant- For his research at the Memory and Aging Center and part of what he wants to do with this though is strengthen the relationship between arts and sciences.
Because out of anyone you talk to, neuroscientists, when you say art is important to humans, they're like, "We already know that." Yeah, yeah. We've seen the scans. We've studied the brains and what art and imagination and curiosity does to the brain, and it's the one place where I felt like I've gone [00:36:00] and I don't have to sit there and argue for the relevance and importance of art.
And to me, that's so interesting. Oh. That neuroscience is the one space where they're like, "Yeah, no, we know." That is incredible. I love that. I'm gonna- Yeah ... go look that up. And like that's, that's where the money is, and that's where the interest is, and I'm just like there's something there that we could be doing more of, and I just- Absolutely
don't know what it is. But yeah, his mom was an artist, and so that's kind of where his background in that comes in, so it brings it back to like childhood experiences- Yeah ... and just exposure,
more art in the schools, more art programs for kids, like, that's when we reach people- Mm-hmm. Absolutely ... that this kind of thing is important. 'Cause after a certain point, I guess it's too late. You don't think of yourself as a person who cares about this, or- Yeah, yeah. Or it just seems so opaque that you don't even want...
So that's what some of my relatives are. Mm-hmm. My older relatives are just like, "I don't get it," and then just shut themselves off- Mm-hmm ... you know, forever from it. And it's like, "No, this could change your, change your life, change your mind." Hmm. Um, when I've had works in museums, like the de Young acquired one of my pieces, that's when my family was like, "Oh, my God.
[00:37:00] Wow. We don't know what you're doing, but they do." And so, you know- Yeah ... it's validating for- I was gonna say- Yeah ... you were vouched for in that moment. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Let me look, let me go to my list of questions. Okay, cut out me thinking. Is there a question about your work or your practice that you wish people would ask you more often and they don't?
Like- I mean, I think the question that I wish people wouldn't ask me- ... but they always do is, "How long did that take?" Mm-hmm. Um, and the only reason is because I'm like, you just wanna know, but you're not thinking any- anything beyond that. Mm-hmm. So I want people to kind of think about, you know, I, I want them to ask, like, you know, what I was thinking, what are my intentions behind the work.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, what have I learned about the ancestors- Hmm ... that I'm dealing with. You know, go deeper with it. Mm-hmm. But yeah, most people just are like, "How long did that take?" And then I notice there's no follow-up because they're just like- They see it's, it's, it's intensive. If I say five hours or if I [00:38:00] say 500 hours- Mm-hmm
they're not gonna really think anything beyond that. Yeah. I don't get a follow-up question, no matter what answer I give them. So I'm just like, okay, no, ask me just a question about that. And then, you know, I also think people try to assign value. Oh, yeah. You know, if, if they're, if you tell them how long it took.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I honestly don't know how long it takes because that would probably make me not wanna ever do this again. Or it would make your hourly rate for when you sell your pieces, like, insane. Oh. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You'd be like, "This piece is gonna cost around a hundred- Well, million dollars ... and $13,000 or whatever."
Yeah. There you go. There you go. Um, and the last question, because we did bring up tech so much and AI and the tech boom and just the culture we're in, it's just like- You're from Oakland, but you're living in this current San Francisco. How does all this impact you as an artist? Like, do you think you'd be the same artist in Gatlinburg, Tennessee?
Do you think you'd be the same artist in Canada, in Alberta? How do you think [00:39:00] all of this melting pot impacts your practice? I'm so thankful that I was born and raised here. Yeah. I mean, I think this is the most incredible place in the world for so many, um, reasons. When I travel, I'm just like, "I wanna get back home."
It's the diversity- Mm-hmm ... that we have here, and there's something about living on the edge of the country and almost the edge of the world, right? Mm-hmm. Um, we kind of are on the edge of the- of the- of the world literally, um, being on California. And, um, just, yeah, having different cultures, growing up and knowing, you know, that not everyone needs to speak English.
Um, it also, you know, as a multicultural person myself, I don't know that I would feel like I had community or I was seen- Mm-hmm ... um, growing up anywhere else because we are the actual definition of melting pot. Um, I am- Mm-hmm ... as- as a multicultural person. Um, I mean, I think there's also this- these... [00:40:00] San Francisco and the San Francisco Bay Area is defined by these, uh, busts and booms, right- Mm-hmm
that keep on happening, and those also create this activism and this- this resistance. And so, so much of that informs of how I think about the world- Mm-hmm ... um, and how I also think we're living in this current moment. And it gives me hope to know that, okay, people have pushed against these systems before.
They've, um, fought for change. Mm-hmm. We can do it again, um, even though we're backtracking a lot- ... in this, you know, current moment in 2026. We'll get it- we'll get it together. We're gonna get it together. We... Yeah, because there's no other way. Yeah. Um, and that gives me hope. And, you know, being in this little bubble that we are in, it's just like, okay, I know that there's...
the majority of people are like-minded- Mm-hmm ... um, that surround me, and so that also gives me strength. I love a Bay Area diehard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so yeah, when I go to other places, I'm like, "Oh, people don't think that way." Mm-mm. A lot of people don't even think beyond, like, what they were told. So, um, [00:41:00] yeah, I like that we question everything here.
Yeah, I like that too. The time has come for you to ask- Ooh ... the Magic 8 Ball a yes or no question. I ask the question? I'm sorry, you do, and you can take a while- Oh, geez ... to think about it. It's hard. What do I ask? I can tell you- Um ... she never lies. It's just a yes or no question? Yes or no. Oh. She never lies.
Mm-mm. Uh, will my art career take another leap in this next 12 months? Hmm. Yeah? Yeah. And I just flip her over and- What does it say? I can't read. Yes, definitely. Yay, I love it. Woo-hoo. Oh my goodness. Well, how exciting for you for your next 12 months. Yeah, exactly. Your art career is gonna skyrocket. Um, well, thank you so much for coming on Art Yap, and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Thank you so much for having me. I love the background noise we got going on here. It's very active. I think it's good, though.
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