Collective Wisdom is where the best demand gen marketers go to learn what's working right now. The Demand Collective team brings on the very best demand marketers we know to talk about everything demand in a no-fluff, 100% real environment. You'll leave each episode with actionable and tactical tips you can use to drive better results and get promoted faster.
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How do I crush my first 90 days in a demand job? How do I get promoted faster? How do I do more with less? How do I run better paid ads? How do I report to my ELT? ... and more? We have answers.
I'm Brian Strauss, cofounder of Demand Collective and host of the Collective Wisdom Podcast. Collective Wisdom is a demand generation podcast brought to you by Demand Collective, a hyper vetted community of demand gen and revenue marketers. Apply to join online at demand collective.io. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us today.
Brian Strauss:I'm with Steve Armenti. He is the group marketing manager for global demand generation for Chrome and Android at Google, arguably one of the most recognizable brands on the planet. So no introduction needed for Google. How are you doing today, Steve?
Steve Armenti:Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm I'm doing incredible. It's, it's a sunny day here in Colorado. It's Friday.
Steve Armenti:The weekend is near. No complaints.
Brian Strauss:Super, super excited to talk to you today. We're, talking to you from Sunny San Diego for Demand Collective. So what maybe maybe run us through a little bit of your story, Steve. I saw on your LinkedIn, you know, you started off as an inside sales rep in college, kinda figured out, hey. I don't know if I wanna do it this way and kind of said, wait a minute.
Brian Strauss:There's this marketing journey that sort of takes that at scale. And maybe you could run me through how you got from from point a to point b there.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's still actually, like, pretty crisp in my memory.
Steve Armenti:You know? I graduated college and had a I had a a bachelor's in marketing. You know? Like, I was ready to go. I was like, here I come, marketing world.
Steve Armenti:I'm I'm primed. And I hit the job market, and it's like, I can't get a marketing job at all. I couldn't even get a low level marketing associate job. And so, you know, I was moving in with friends, rent was due, and I was like, okay. There's all these sales jobs.
Steve Armenti:And ended up landing, you know, basically an SDR or a BDR type role at a travel software company outside of Boston. And, I don't know how I lasted 2 years, but it was a it was like a a you know, it was a transformational moment because I don't think I'd even be where I am now or have the mindset I have now if I hadn't started in sales. So it's one of those things where, at the time, you know, I was I was cursing it because it was tough in making a 100 phone calls a week to CFOs and, like, VPs of finance and and controllers and stuff. And, I mean, you know, it it just teaches you some some grit and and, hardens your skin a little bit. You're just constantly getting rejected.
Steve Armenti:And, you know, no offense to, like, accounting and finance people, but but they're hard to talk to, especially on the phone when you're cold calling. Right? And so yeah. I mean, I was in this job just grinding literally Monday through Friday, a 100 calls a day, trying to set up appointments for our, like, regional sales rep. And I I figured out along the way, I was like, man, this just making phone calls all day is is not working.
Steve Armenti:You know, I'm just getting hung up on left left and right. And this was when Sales Force as a CRM was a pretty new concept. And so I was going through Sales Force, so I'm getting tasks pushed to me on a daily basis. I'm like, why do I sit here and just react? Why don't I proactively set up communications?
Steve Armenti:And so I started doing that. I started playing around with, like, email communications, and I started, I'll never forget the first thing I did was I clicked my whole contact list, and I blasted every single one of them with the same exact email. And, like, almost instantly, my boss comes over and is like, what are you doing? And, you know, you would never do that today. And so, you know, I I quickly evolved and was like, okay.
Steve Armenti:I need to, like, I need to tailor this down and that, you know, in today's world that would be segmentation personalization. Right? And so I was actually exporting lists of my contacts, organizing them by industry, the last time I reached out to them, their location, and then I would just start kinda like AB testing my own emails. I'd send this group, this type of email, that group, that type of email, started to see what would come back. And over time, I I basically stopped making phone calls, and I was only sending emails.
Steve Armenti:And they were they were so effective. I I had this strategy where I'd talk to my sales director and I'd say, hey. Where do you wanna go? Like, pick a spot on the map. Where do you wanna go?
Steve Armenti:And then I target all these emails. And what I would write is, hey. My, you know, my chief whatever is gonna be in town, and he has one more meeting spot. He would love to meet with you and your company. And I'd send him that email to, you know, however many hundreds of people.
Steve Armenti:I'd get all these replies back and, you know, it was just me sort of tinkering and figuring it out. And and I later learned, like, that's marketing. Right? That's marketing, automation, and it's marketing ops. And so that that sort of opened me up to what marketing is and created a bit of that passion for for wanting to pursue marketing.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. I can imagine. That's like I'm sure that that has impacted sort of how you view marketing as a whole. Right? Because it's I feel and maybe I don't know if you if if you feel differently or not, but I feel like some of the best marketers I know began in sales.
Brian Strauss:And I think that's some some some really, really relevant experience that puts you on the others other side of things.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean, there there's 2 things that come to mind is, 1, I think oftentimes, especially as you grow in your career and you work for bigger companies, you're so far removed from the customer, like the actual person. Right?
Steve Armenti:And that's sales is the opposite of that. You're so connected to the customer. So if you never learned how to actually talk to that end customer and hear their pain points and hear their rejections and everything, I I think you're at a disadvantage. And then the other part is it I it it's helped me talk to sales. Right?
Steve Armenti:Like, I can go into sales conversations and be like, hey. I've been in your shoes. I get it. You know? It it's tough.
Steve Armenti:And so it's a win win. Right? Especially in in a demand gen type role, sales is your most important stakeholder. So you need to know how to talk to them. You need to know what what keeps them up at night, and and you're there as a counterpart a partner to try to help solve problems with them.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure that buys you a lot of credibility when you're able to go listen. I've made the the the cold calls. I've gotten the hang ups.
Brian Strauss:I've gotten the screw you. You know? Like, yeah. Do you do you ever feel like like, you know, in terms of how you collaborate with sales, given your previous experience in sales, do you ever feel like it becomes a sort of, like like, I know on for for me, for example, right, I take more of a hybrid approach to ownership when it comes to working with sales. Instead of saying, I'm just gonna strictly blast marketing emails and then take attribution credit, I go, cool.
Brian Strauss:Let me help write some of your cadences and sequences so we're aligned on messaging and, you know, really work together as one revenue? Or do you take, like, a similar approach? Or how do you how do you handle that?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. I mean, today, yes. I'd be lying if I said I always did that. I think, you know, the my mindset has shifted quite a bit over the last probably 2, 3 years where it it used to be marketing does this and sales does that. Right?
Steve Armenti:And then after so many years of looking at it and saying, you know, why isn't this working? It it's right there in front of you, like, punching you in the face. It's like, it's because you're not. We're working well together. It's like the left hand and the right hand don't know what each other are doing.
Steve Armenti:And so you you absolutely have to know how to talk to your counterpart and and work with them. And so I've completely changed my tune and have gone from kind of the, you know, the the marketing silosales silo type of mindset to a a joint mindset. And, you know, in my current role now, we do, like, joint planning together with sales. We build OKRs with sales. I talk to sales more throughout the week than, you know, I'd probably do my own team.
Steve Armenti:I mean, we're just we're just so connected now. And it's it's had a really profound impact, 1, on the results and the performance and all that stuff, but just on the the collaboration. You know, you go into things looking at them as opportunities to solve problems and improve and make things better versus, you know, the the the typical marketing is, like, why aren't you why aren't you opening up deals, and why aren't you calling these MQLs and stuff in sales? It's like, because they're garbage. Like, you're you're you're sending us crap.
Steve Armenti:Right? You go back and forth. As soon as you get away from that, then you start uncovering, like, well, what is the real problem? It's it's you know, the MQLs might actually be garbage. And you if you don't wanna hear that, then you're, you know, you're at a disadvantage.
Steve Armenti:Right? You're you're missing a a big opportunity to maybe go up stream and start tweaking and optimizing some things and and actually getting some wins.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really great point you bring up on the the MQLs. Right? That's, like, such a hot topic of of you know, is it the MQLs themselves so much as or so much as as how we define them?
Brian Strauss:Right? Like, I think the biggest challenge, and let me know if you disagree here, is we're stuffing the pipeline full of junk. Right? We're trying to meet certain numbers, and then and we're looking at it from top down instead of bottoms up. Right?
Brian Strauss:So we're not we're we're saying, you know, we wanna get to, you know, let's for the sake of these amount, 5,000,000 revenue. We know things, you know, convert at x percent, except that percentage is driven way down by all of the junk we're stuffing in there. And so instead of focusing on the high intent revenue opportunities, we're focusing on just stuff meeting that top level number. You know what I mean?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's that's, like, the the beginning.
Steve Armenti:Right? And if you're in that spot, you start to peel the onion back a little bit. And, you know, for me, some of the experience has been, well, you know, we're in that spot. Why is that? And a a big one has been the, you know, the the goals or the KPIs or, like, basically, the incentives of the team.
Steve Armenti:Right? And if marketing is incentivized to drive MQLs, because that's what they're gonna put in their QBRs and their their reports to their leadership, then, yeah, they're gonna do that. Right? And to your point, like, it's so it's manufactured. Right?
Steve Armenti:Like, the especially if the demand team controls lead scoring and, like, all the automation and stuff too. Like, I joke around all the time where people are like, how many MQLs are we gonna get this quarter? And I'm like, how many do you want? Because I can make it. I can give you 1.
Steve Armenti:I can give you a 1,000,000. Like, it all depends on on on all of that, you know, infrastructure. And so yeah. It's it's like, I think today, like, MQLs, there's all sorts of talk about this, but it's like, there's gotta be a different way. It's not MQLs are too broad.
Steve Armenti:Right? And just being like, yeah. These are these are sales ready. Give them a call.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think some of the biggest mistakes I'm seeing when it comes to that is, one, I love you know, you're aligned on on on creating and setting your OKRs with sales. Right? Working as a singular revenue org, super important.
Brian Strauss:But then, also, being aligned on your account list. Right? Now I know I'm sure it's a little different given the nature of your role, but at least in, like, b two b, for example, we have to focus on the same account. There's such a finite, like, known universe for who you're targeting, and you don't have sales and marketing going after the same people. And that creates an issue, I think, a misalignment on objectives, on messaging, on, you know, on on expectations for conversions.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I should say, so, you know, in my past experience, I've done all sorts of b to b, like, demand consulting for big tech companies and stuff.
Steve Armenti:And then even now at Google, it's always been b to b. I've worked on Google Cloud, Google Workspace, and now the enterprise versions of of Chrome and Android. And so you talk about account lists, that in itself is is a whole exercise in in, like, efficiency and precision because you can half ass that and be like, yeah. We have target account list, and we're doing, like, ABM and everything, but but but you're not. You know?
Steve Armenti:Like, you you need to your point, you can't just throw that over the fence and be like, these are the accounts we're gonna target. You need to work hand in hand with sales of who's on that list, why are they on that list, how are we gonna segment that list, maybe prioritize or, you know, tier that list maybe. And then work together to figure out, like, okay. What is marketing's role in that list? Right?
Steve Armenti:And, like, I'm thinking of of a moment. Like, we got ourselves in trouble where we had one of our, like, top tier, top five customers on the target account list. There was no alignment between marketing and sales. We started blasting this account with, like, awareness type marketing messages. The CIO reaches out to sales.
Steve Armenti:He's like, why are you inviting me to sign up for a free trial for this product? Like, we are a massive customer. You know? And, like, that stuff happens, and the stakes get real when, you know, a big customer is getting pissed like that. And so Yeah.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. You you gotta have alignment on it, you know, and you gotta go gotta go deep on asking kinda why you have that list and what's the approach on it.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. So there yeah. One of the biggest misses I see is I think people, when putting together these lists, often think about who they want as a customer as opposed to who's most likely to become a customer.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. I don't know. What
Brian Strauss:what's your approach to to how you how you, decide on who's gonna be a most viable prospect?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. I think that's interesting. And and this is a place where I think technology is getting better at helping us, where, you know, you could imagine, say, a target account list of 10 years ago was probably the the demand gen person and salesperson sitting down and, like, you know, looking at some some list of companies and trying to handpick brands and stuff. And now I think, you know, you you nailed it. It's like, it's not just who do you want as a customer.
Steve Armenti:It's like, who is most likely to get value from your product or service? And that's that's where you go a little bit deeper. And I think this is where stuff like intent data, 3rd party data, and and some of the, like, look alike technology, I think actually does help here. Because, you know, let's say your approach is, you're you're out there marketing specific solutions or something, and you're trying to cater your message to certain companies. You need to know the the probability that those companies could leverage that solution.
Steve Armenti:And that's where I think, you know, some of the, like, tech install data you can get today, it'll show you competitive solutions they have in place, give you enough of an insight that, like, okay. Yeah. They're they're probably running some kinda collaboration software or some kinda marketing automation software. So we can now cater that message, but that almost becomes the criteria for getting on the list. Right?
Steve Armenti:Just Yeah. Just because you're in, like, the Fortune 1,000, that's a lazy way of building an account list. Right? I mean, you and all your competitors are doing the same thing. So so, like, get more creative.
Brian Strauss:Right. Right. Right. So how do you you you manage, what, a team of 10 plus people, I think, I saw?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I'm lucky. I have, basically, a full stack team. So we're we're we're website.
Steve Armenti:We're, field marketing campaigns, like all acquisition paid media stuff, marketing operations, and data analytics, as well as a little bit of CRM and email. And so one of the nice things about that is, like, it's all under one roof. So it it forces us to work together. Right? And I think I think the the, like, sorta north star demand programs are the ones that work together.
Steve Armenti:And having been in roles where you got a campaign team over here, and then you may have got ABM team, and then, like, a field team, and they're all just, like, doing their own thing. And, yeah, they say they're they're working off of the same countless and stuff. I mean, it's totally disjointed, and and your customers notice that it's not coming out as fluid as it could. So, you know, having all those in in one place has been massively helpful. Mhmm.
Steve Armenti:Mhmm.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, you have left hand, right hand, other left hand, other right hand.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got, like, 8 hands all doing their own thing.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. So you after after you, you know, moved away from sales, you from what I saw, you got into more of content track. Right? Content marketer. What sort of inspired that pivot?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. This I think a little bit by accident, but, basically, the the the way I got out of sales was by creating my own experience. So I had to have this job for about 2 years. It actually moved me out to California, which was an awesome experience.
Steve Armenti:And so I'm super grateful for it. But I you know, I still was like, man, I wanna do this marketing stuff. And I still couldn't get a marketing job because all I had was sales experience. So I actually started a website with my brother. We launched it.
Steve Armenti:We started pushing, like, social media, like, big SEO and, like, affiliate marketing and stuff. And we're, we were kinda like a barstool sports type of website. You can you can tell who won. I mean, mean, this thing is, like, dead and gone. It's it's awful.
Steve Armenti:But it was good enough that I put it on my resume and then got a job. And so I think the the the connection there was, you know, my brother and I, we were writing all this content, editing it, doing SEO, and figuring out WordPress and web strategy and inbound and all that. So it kinda felt like a natural fit because content I was like, oh, this is this is kinda new. I get this. And, like, social media was really big at the time.
Steve Armenti:And every brand, what did they need? It was content. Right? They needed something to say on social. So I ended up at a a content marketing software company.
Steve Armenti:They they're just building content at scale with a network of writers for huge, huge brands. And it was it was incredible because even though, you know, I was in content, we were, like, leading these strategic discussions on content, the next step in the conversation is, like, where are you using the content? And then that's when the demand came into play. And it's like, oh, we're pushing it through all of our advertising. It's going into emails.
Steve Armenti:You know, we need ebooks and research papers and stuff. And so it started to become more of consulting brands on their demand strategy, and then content was, like, how you actually execute it. So it's it's really fascinating for me. And I think with content, the the my favorite learning from all of this is is is how to communicate, like, how to tell stories. And that's a little bit of the art and science in my mind.
Steve Armenti:It's like a good demand marketer is tactical and is operational and knows data and stuff. But if you can also tell a good story and recognize a good story and you can combine those things together, like, man, you'll you'll crush it. Like, you your that skill set is, it it's really rare. And and so that's you know, having been in that space a little bit, I I still try to bring that forward. It's like you can't just be all, like, zeros and ones all the time.
Steve Armenti:You know? You you've gotta, like, bring a little human into it and some storytelling.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. Coupled with the sales experience, I think being able to recognize a story and to pull it together the sort of underlying thematic elements for, like, a broader narrative, I think, is really a compelling tool in the demand gen arsenal. Do you have any particular places that you look to towards inspiration?
Steve Armenti:For for good stories?
Brian Strauss:For stories, for campaigns, or just something that makes you go, you know what? I can do something like that. You know?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. You know, I I think the the obvious one is, I I pay attention a lot now on LinkedIn and how, like, the the sort of influencers are communicating. And I think the the good ones are doing this in in a story format. They're they're making a point, but they're using metaphors, and, like, anecdotes from their personal life or or from elsewhere to try to make that that point. So I I find that interesting because it's, like, it's quick.
Steve Armenti:Right? You can, like, read some of this stuff really easily. But I I honestly think the the best sources of inspiration are the the ones you don't think of.
Brian Strauss:Yeah.
Steve Armenti:Like, I love, like, animal documentaries and, like, outdoor documentaries and stuff. And I sit there and watch those things, and I'm like, you know, this this, the person narrating is they're incredible storytellers. I mean, just just think about it for a sec. They're telling stories about, like, animals in particular. Right?
Steve Armenti:They're probably not even true. But they're they're so captivating and they're so inspiring that you're just, like, you're glued and you're sucked in. And so it just makes me think, like, how can how can a brand or a product or a service do that? And it's it's it comes down to a lot of the fundamentals that we forget. It's like, how do you communicate with people?
Steve Armenti:How do you connect? How do you understand their pain points and their needs? And then you're positioning yourself within their world. Right? If you just come in and you're just, you know, bragging about yourself and how great you are and this and that, then you're just noise.
Steve Armenti:Right? You need to be, you know, kinda personal to them. So yeah. I don't I don't know. I I I'm may may be odd in this sense, but, yeah, I get my inspiration from, like, weird weird places.
Brian Strauss:No. I think that's probably where some of the most compelling ideas come from. Right? Like, I think one of the challenges, right, on LinkedIn you know, you mentioned LinkedIn, and there are a lot of really great creators doing a lot of really great stuff. You know?
Brian Strauss:I look to a lot of the work that, like, Mark Huber and Jason Widup did at Metadata, like, Refine Labs, obviously, leaders in the demand gen space. But then you have a lot of noise. Right? And you have a lot of sort of, like, pseudo SMEs. And, you know, what's that joke that people always make?
Brian Strauss:Like, I stopped I was on my way to a job interview, and I stopped to help a dog. The next day, the dog was the interviewer, you know, like, sort of
Steve Armenti:stuff. Yeah.
Brian Strauss:But when you find the gold, you really find the gold. And you mentioned speaking in, you know, being in the world of the customer, of the prospect. Right? That's, I think, the most important thing for any any demand gen campaign. How do you currently put yourself in those shoes?
Brian Strauss:How do you find like, what's the taxonomy and sort of the lexicon for these prospects, and how do you get there?
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good question, and I I probably don't have the best answer because it it's ongoing. It's it's always evolving. But I think I think the question in itself is is sort of the the calling.
Steve Armenti:Right? Like, you you you need to try to figure that out. Do your best to try to figure that out. And, you know, I think for me, it starts with, like, it starts with a little bit of empathy. I I like, I like some of the design thinking processes and, like, some of the the kinda, like, more, like, UX type processes to understand your customer.
Steve Armenti:I think having that baseline or or just good old fashioned research is is helpful. You know, it can kinda, like, put you in their shoes. But then, you know, more operationally from a, from a demand perspective, there's actually, like, 3 pillars in how I've I've organized this is, you know, you start with your accounts, and then you start with your personas, and then you start with your segments. And so across those three things, it's a mix of, like, demographics, firmographics, psychographics. And so you're you're figuring all that stuff out along the way.
Steve Armenti:And, ultimately, it's a funnel. Right? You might have 5,000 accounts you're targeting, but you only have a handful of personas. And those are those are really the, you know, the characters in your story that that you're trying to to reach and you're trying to connect with. And then the segments are, like, the different flavors, like, the different slices of that persona.
Steve Armenti:Because you might have, you know, especially b two b, let's say the CIO is your persona. Right? Everybody's targeting the CIO right now. And CIOs are built differently. They're all they're all different.
Steve Armenti:Right? So that's where your segments come in, and it's like, you it it's so interesting because you could segment based on some of the, like, hard facts of like, oh, they're located here. The company size is this. They have, you know, this amount in funding or, you know, whatever it is. But then I think now you're starting to see some of these tools that are segmenting by, like like, psychology attributes and stuff.
Steve Armenti:It's like, oh, are are they risk takers? Are they innovative? Do they like humor? Are they, like, into fitness and stuff? And it's really wild because if you have that data, we could we could talk about the accuracy of that.
Steve Armenti:But, like, if you had that, imagine how much more powerful your campaign could be trying to connect with them. Right? And it's like, yeah. Now understand this person a little better. And to your point about the LinkedIn influencers, there's gonna be the ones that do good with that and then the ones that just do bad.
Steve Armenti:Right? They'll they'll abuse it and they'll be like you know, our our product is like the the barbell of whatever, and it it'll be, like, really cheesy and and turn people off. But, you know, the ones that try to connect, I think, can do well with something like that.
Brian Strauss:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, sincerity goes a long way. You know? Yeah.
Brian Strauss:And, personality types, do you happen to know your, what's it, Myers Briggs?
Steve Armenti:Oh, man. No. I I did at one point. I know that I'm, typically, like, a conflict averse type person, but I also fall in the the traits of, like, being very disciplined and, like, very reliable and dependent and stuff like that. That's what I remember from the last time I did it.
Steve Armenti:Mhmm. You know, those things are always fun slash awkward. You're with, like, a team of 10 people, and you're you're, like, you know, having an introspective of who you are as a person.
Brian Strauss:Oh, yeah. Looking at yourself can be hard. Right? I think I crack up because I, like, I got I took that test. I think last time I took it was a couple years ago.
Brian Strauss:But I cracked up because I got the campaigner. I was like, let's go.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Yeah. You put it right into your LinkedIn profile. You're like, yeah. I'm just
Brian Strauss:But I appreciate you taking the time today to chat with us, Steve. Demand Collective thanks to you. And, hopefully, we're, we'll we'll, look forward to to seeing more of what you do in the future.
Steve Armenti:Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Appreciate it, Brian. This is fun.
Steve Armenti:Thanks, Steve.