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The Sermon on the Mount is the single most influential talk anybody ever gave. Renowned philosopher Dallas Willard calls it “Jesus’ Master Class for Life,” and he helps us apply its messages for human well-being and human well-doing.
Study Gateway's First Listens: Find your next Bible study! Join host Shelley Leith as she curates first sessions of Bible studies on various themes each season, taught by some of the world’s most influential Christian authors, teachers, and pastors. To learn more, visit https://StudyGateway.com.
First Listens Season 3: Episode 4
The Divine Conspiracy
By Dallas Willard, with John Ortberg
[MUSIC PLAYING] SHELLEY LEITH: Hi there everyone! Welcome to First Listens! I’m your host, Shelley Leith, and in this podcast I bring you the first listens of the first sessions on Study Gateway so you can find your next video Bible study.
We’re in Season 3 of First Listens, which we’re calling Key Bible Passages Everyone Should Know. In this season, we’re hearing the first sessions of Bible studies on the seminal Scripture passages that are seminal in the life of every Christian, such as Jeremiah 29:11 (everyone’s favorite verse), the Fruit of the Spirit, the Armor of God, the Sermon on the Mount, the Prodigal Son, the Promises of God, and the Lord’s Prayer. I hope that you’ll enjoy these episodes so much you’ll say, I’ve got to go watch that whole Bible study and learn about the rest of that passage!
In today’s episode we are hearing from one of the giants of the faith in our generation. Dallas Willard, philosopher, author, professor at USC, is talking with his friend John Ortberg about his classic book, The Divine Conspiracy. They discuss the idea that the Sermon on the Mount is probably the most influential talk anyone ever gave, which is why Dallas calls it Jesus’ Master Class for Life. We’re listening today to Session Two of The Divine Conspiracy. You’ll hear John Ortberg starting us off by introducing us to his conversation with Dallas in this session called “Path to a Blessed Life.”
[MUSIC PLAYING] JOHN ORTBERG: Everybody's after the good life. Dallas actually wrote that there was a magazine in Southern California called The Good Life. And by its ad frequency, it suggested that the good life was pursued primarily through paradoxically, fine dining and weight reduction.
The Bible's word for the good life is the word, "blessed." And we all want to know, who is it that's blessed? But there's a lot of confusion about the source of blessedness. And the Bible tells us that blessing is available not just to people who make a certain amount of money, or who are attractive to a certain level, or who are successful and climb high on ladders, that the blessed life is now available to every human being, and it's available through God in this divine conspiracy.
And Jesus, in the most influential talk ever given the Sermon on the Mount, which Dallas is dealing with so much in The Divine Conspiracy, answers the great questions of human beings. What is it that's real? Who is it that's well off that's blessed? Who's a good person? And how do you become a good person? And the entry into this blessedness, the way that people actually become good people is through becoming students of following the dispenser of blessing, which is Jesus. He is the great good friend and leader of Dallas and so many others, and we turn now to his teachings about the blessed life.
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Dallas, in the history of the human race. What would you say is the single most influential talk anybody ever gave?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, among the ones that I know about, there's no question, but what Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, that talk. And I think it was a talk, actually. I think that would have to be most influential in terms of how the content has affected human history, because it actually sets a perception of human well-being and human well-doing that has captured more of whatever else that's good has been said even outside of that tradition, and has also influenced well, the Western world.
JOHN ORTBERG: It's hard to think of any talk that would be a close number two.
DALLAS WILLARD: I can't imagine on--
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: That would even come close.
JOHN ORTBERG: Now, of course, the book The Divine Conspiracy, about this notion that God is up to something big, but doing it in ways that allow us to take part in it, but that we could also miss, it's all built around this talk that Jesus gave, the Sermon on the Mount.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's right.
JOHN ORTBERG: And a lot of us, when we think about the Sermon on the Mount, we think of a religious talk. Part of what you want to do in the book is to recognize its power and influence is way bigger and of more interest to every human being than what we often think about as religion. And there are some basic questions that you say every human being has to grapple with is, whether or not we admit it. And the reason the Sermon on the Mount is so influential is it gives the best answer to those questions ever. What are those questions?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, the first question is, what is real? And you have to pull that out of the egghead category, [LAUGHING] and you realize that the question of what is real is what can you count on.
JOHN ORTBERG: What can you count on?
DALLAS WILLARD: What do you have to deal with? And what do you run into when you're wrong? Those are all ways of putting the reality question. And once you see that, you realize that that is absolutely fundamental to human life.
JOHN ORTBERG: Well, let's just pause there for a second, because again, to get it out of the egghead category, for most of us what is real, this chair is real.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yeah. That just--
JOHN ORTBERG: These legs and pants are real. And we all think of essentially, what's real is the stuff that we can see, taste, hear, and smell. And then we might think about values, or something as interesting things to talk about, but they don't seem to be real in that same sense. What's at stake in that question of what's real?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, what is at stake is how you guide your life. You won't guide your life in terms of chairs and sense perceptible things. Even at the level of the science of physics, you don't go to physics to learn what you live for. And in none of our sciences I often like to make the point by saying, you go to your local university, you will not find a department of reality.
JOHN ORTBERG: [LAUGHING]
DALLAS WILLARD: They don't have one.
JOHN ORTBERG: So Jesus is teaching in the department of reality.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's what he's doing. And of course, it isn't just him, but the Buddha, and Confucius, and Muhammad, and all of the leaders in large scale human enterprises are reality people. Like the Buddha comes and tells you now, the world you see around you, the one in which the chair is in is actually an illusion, and your pain is also an illusion.
And what you need to do is to realize that you are an illusion. There is no you. And the way out of suffering and pain, which is caused by passion on the Buddhist teaching, desire, is to realize that there's no you. So who's suffering? And so that's a reality teaching.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: And all like communism, while it was very effective internationally, was a reality teaching.
JOHN ORTBERG: These are all claims about what's real as opposed to just practices, or traditions, or--
DALLAS WILLARD: Absolutely right. And now, and you have to stick close to those ideas. It's what you can count on. It's what you have to deal with. It's what you run into when you're wrong. Capitalism runs into the kind of bondage that is built into ownership of the means of production. That was the communist story.
And so what was the answer? Well, get rid of capitalism and turn to something else. So these are all teachings. Now, this is what Jesus is saying when he says in Matthew 4:17 and elsewhere, "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." Being at hand is a matter of what's real. It isn't a matter of something that's going to happen. Jesus was saying, it has happened.
JOHN ORTBERG: It's actual, and it's real, and it's here.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes. And he meant that it was in him.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: And that is what you see in the Gospels.
JOHN ORTBERG: So we all have to decide what we can count on, what's real, that's one question. And then what else for the basic question?
DALLAS WILLARD: Who is well off?
JOHN ORTBERG: Who is well off?
DALLAS WILLARD: Or we would say in biblical terms, blessed, who's blessed?
JOHN ORTBERG: To be blessed means to be well off.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's right. Who has beatitude, right?
JOHN ORTBERG: And in our culture we know well off people is defined financial, as in to be well off means to be rich.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's right.
JOHN ORTBERG: And Jesus would say the same thing?
DALLAS WILLARD: Popularity.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: All that. And actually, we've invented very little along these lines. We're still chasing the same sorts of things that people were chasing in his day. And he saw that beatitude did not lie in those directions. You can have all of the money in the world and be a very miserable person. And you can have no money and be blessed because you're in the Kingdom of God.
JOHN ORTBERG: Well, let's pause on that well off thing for a moment. So to be well off, the biblical word for that is to be blessed?
DALLAS WILLARD: Yeah.
JOHN ORTBERG: We all want to be well off.
DALLAS WILLARD: Indeed, we do.
JOHN ORTBERG: Is that a wrong thing to want? Should we not want that?
DALLAS WILLARD: No.
JOHN ORTBERG: Is it selfish?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, it depends. You can think of being well off in selfish terms, which will bring you a lot of disappointment. But you can also think of being well off in terms of taking your kingdom into God's kingdom. And then if you do that, the world is now a perfectly safe place for you to be, because you're also in the Kingdom of God, and in the Kingdom of God.
JOHN ORTBERG: Time out. The world is not a perfectly safe place for anybody to be. Horrible things happen, car accidents, floods, cancer, disease, abuse. What do you mean? And I know that you think about most of what you say before you say it.
DALLAS WILLARD: Sometimes, I think about it after I say it. [LAUGHING]
JOHN ORTBERG: Help us understand the world is a perfectly safe place.
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, in general, it is not.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: It is a perfectly safe place for anyone alive in the kingdom of God to be, because no matter what happens, God will turn it eventually to good. And that's why we have that statement in Romans 8:28, "All things work together for good."
Now, it doesn't say that all things are good. They aren't. But that they work together to good for those who love God and are called into his purposes, that is, who are caught up in what he's doing. And for those people, this world is a perfectly safe place to be no matter what happens, because of the kingdom of God, because the kingdom of God is eternal, It's good, it is powerful. And to have eternal life is to be living eternally in the kingdom of God.
JOHN ORTBERG: And even things that are painful, even death itself can't sever that connection with God, or that connection to the good that is going on right now, and that will one day be fully restored and redeemed.
DALLAS WILLARD: That is right. And that's the vision that Jesus is bringing. But you see that the background of that vision of blessedness is what is real. Now, that's always true.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah, because I think a lot of times when people say, lots get written about fear and anxiety.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes.
JOHN ORTBERG: And what gets written is don't give in to fear, don't be afraid. But it's not tied to claims about reality. It's not tied to the idea that there's grounds whereby you actually don't have to be afraid, that fear is not rational. It's simply taken as an unpleasant life strategy.
DALLAS WILLARD: Right. And you see, that's a perfect illustration of what it means to keep working in terms of your own kingdom, because people know that fear and anxiety are not good things. But then what are the resources for dealing with them? And that's where you have many people teaching one thing or the other, and all the religions have a teaching about this.
And that's what you want to realize when you're thinking about the way of Christ, which isn't necessarily a religion. It has to do with life, not some particular practices. When you're thinking about what he teaches, see, you have to put him down beside the other people who have a teaching. And you have to put the teaching of Buddhism beside Christ. You had to take Islam, or whatever else, secularism, and that's really important in our culture, is to realize that if you are thinking about being secular, you're looking at a particular picture of what reality is.
That's what secularism is, a claim about the nature of reality. And then the question is, what does that offer you in the way of beatitude? Well, I'm not secular. Congratulations. What else have you got?
JOHN ORTBERG: So there's the question of what's real, what can I count on, who is well off. Are those are the big ones? Any else?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, they're very big, but I think people are actually more concerned about a third question, which is, how can I be a really good person? Everyone has a realization that you could be well off and not a good person. Something wrong with that.
JOHN ORTBERG: You could be attractive, rich, have lots of pleasure, but selfish, greedy.
DALLAS WILLARD: Right. And we all sort of suspect that. [LAUGHING]
JOHN ORTBERG: And in fact, it might actually give you a leg up on being well-off.
DALLAS WILLARD: Indeed.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes. And so that's the way the world runs. But deep down, I think people feel that they have somehow betrayed themselves if they go for being well-off without going for being a really good person.
[MUSIC PLAYING] SHELLEY LEITH: I hope you’re enjoying this conversation with Dallas Willard on the most influential talk of all time, the Sermon on the Mount, where we’re thinking about the big questions of life: What is real/what can I count on, who is well off, and how can I be a really good person. You’re listening to Session Two of The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard, which is published by HarperChristian Resources and it streams on Study Gateway. Study Gateway is a streaming video service, and we’re the only one that has a subscription plan especially for small groups. For our First Listens listeners, we offer you an exclusive rate on our small group plan. When you use the promo code FIRST at studygateway.com, you’ll get a 20% discount on a small group plan for up to 20 people, and that discount lasts for the life of your subscription! And, for a complete experience with The Divine Conspiracy take advantage of our publisher-direct pricing on the essential Bible study guide designed to be used with the videos. You’ll get the group discussion questions and leader materials, the Scripture text and key ideas, and personal Bible study and reflection exercises to do between sessions. Get all the details at Studygateway.com.
And now, let’s return to Dallas Willard and John Ortberg, where we pick up on their discussion of the question, How can I be a really good person.
[MUSIC PLAYING] DALLAS WILLARD: So that question is more apt to eat at your health, that is, the idea that I'm not a good person. It affects your blood pressure. It affects how you think about things generally in a very deep and profound way that the other question, how can I be well off, doesn't really get to. The pressure is at a different point. And so that question, who's a really good person, associated with the fourth question, which is, how do I get to be a good person, which often degenerates in how can I get people to think I am?
But no one is really happy with that. That's a consolation prize, being thought to be a good person, for the real prize, which is to be a good person. You hear people say this as they come towards the end of their lives. They look at their life and they look at who they become, and very rarely is it, I never got that Peugeot. It's more in terms of personal characteristics, and relationships, and so on.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah, and when people die and we talk about them at the funeral, we don't usually talk about what they had.
DALLAS WILLARD: We never say things like, she had great teeth.
JOHN ORTBERG: [LAUGHING]
DALLAS WILLARD: It's just clear that the real weight comes on what kind of a person did I turn out to be?
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JOHN ORTBERG: And now, we come to the Sermon on the Mount, and it begins with these statements that have become known as the beatitudes, where Jesus says blessed. But most of us think about those statements as just things that go up on plaques, on walls, or advice about what we ought to do when we have a hard time understanding them. And you spend some time in the book unpacking what's Jesus is up to with the beatitudes.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes, it's very important, because the effect of beatitudes on most people is simply to make them feel guilty.
JOHN ORTBERG: And as just a reminder, some of the beatitudes are blessed are those who mourn, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the meek.
DALLAS WILLARD: Meek, persecuted.
JOHN ORTBERG: Yeah.
DALLAS WILLARD: And of course, that list is design-- he's speaking to a group of people. And in that group of people are precisely the ones he puts on the list. When you think about it, the people he chose as apostles were on the list as well. The first on the list is those who have nothing going for them spiritually.
JOHN ORTBERG: Well, let's pause there for a minute, because most people I think when they hear the beatitudes, they think the beatitudes are statements of what I'm supposed to do.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's right.
JOHN ORTBERG: And so blessed are the mourned, I'm supposed to mourn over sin or something. Blessed are the meek means I'm supposed to be meek. But you're claiming that's not what Jesus was saying.
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, actually.
JOHN ORTBERG: It's not giving instructions in the Bible.
DALLAS WILLARD: The grammar is fairly clear. This is not a statement of he doesn't tell you to do anything. The grammar is putting the weight not on the condition but on the Kingdom. You aren't blessed because you're poor, or poor in spirit, or mourn, or anything. You're blessed because the kingdom is available to you and you can live there.
And so to use something we were talking about earlier, anyone who is on that list can be perfectly well off by living in the kingdom of God. And what you have to understand is that the beatitudes are proclamation. They are telling you contrary to the assumptions of the day who can enter the kingdom.
JOHN ORTBERG: And so what he's saying is, usually, we think that people who are meek, or persecuted, or mourn could not be well off.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's right, could not be well off.
JOHN ORTBERG: But he's kind of using those as examples to say, now, anybody can be well off if they're living in the presence and love of God.
DALLAS WILLARD: That's exactly right.
JOHN ORTBERG: This person here that's quite sad because of something bad that happened to them, you can be well off. So one of the things that you do, Dallas, is give kind of contemporary versions of the beatitudes, where if Jesus was talking to us he might say, you didn't think that you could be well off, but you right there, you could be well. What would beatitudes look like if Jesus were to give them in our day?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, take at first some things that seem rather silly, but for example, people who are overweight suffer a tremendous burden of rejection. So a beatitude would be, blessed are those who are overweight, because in the kingdom of God, there is hope, and joy, and the prospect of change for the things that need to be changed. On the grimmer side, blessed are the divorced, blessed are those who have just learned they have HIV, blessed are those who have just gone into bankruptcy. That would be a good one for today. Blessed are those who have-- And in each case, you can find a corresponding response from the kingdom of God that assures you of that blessedness.
JOHN ORTBERG: And Dallas, I'm just thinking as we're talking, there'll be people listening right now who find themselves in categories that they think make themselves unblessed. Would you maybe take a moment or two and just speak to people who might find themselves in those conditions? You might think of some that you know, or have talked to, and just speak directly to them.
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes, this is where the gospel becomes real. If I cannot speak to them and say blessed, I don't understand the gospel. So for example, people who have received a death sentence as it were from the doctor, they can take that, You in general, you take any of these conditions into the kingdom of God, and you see what that means in the light of life in the kingdom of God.
And you see that in the case of death and a death sentence, that it does not mean the end of your existence. It does not mean that the life you have will cease to be. But rather, that in the kingdom of God you still are alive in relationship to people with a magnificent future before you. That's why Paul says, you may recall that he is Lord both of the dead and the living. The transition that we call death is not what we are told. It is from the viewpoint of humanity as running their own.
JOHN ORTBERG: Let's say I come to you and I've been married for 20 years, and my spouse tells me that she does not love me anymore, and she is leaving me, and I feel so rejected, and I feel so alone and like such a failure. How am I blessed?
DALLAS WILLARD: You can only be blessed, again, by taking that into your position in the kingdom of God. And that means that your future is not limited just to this rejection, but rather, you now have the capacity to build further relationships with other people. And they may be people right around you that you have not paid attention to, but you see them in the kingdom of God, and you see the person who is rejecting you as under God and in his hands. And in every case, it is a matter of bringing that situation, bankruptcy, having a child that is drug addicted or whatever, the rule is always see that from your position as alive in the Kingdom of God.
Now, if you don't have that, then there's nothing but heartbreak that's left. There may be a few good things that you can learn to do, but you're not going to be blessed if that's all you have. It's all in the kingdom of God.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOHN ORTBERG: So Dallas, as we wrap up this session, tell us, as you think about Jesus magnificent talk, who is really well off? Who in this world really is well off?
DALLAS WILLARD: Well, anyone who lives interactively with God in their real life is well off, anyone. That is, Gods call to us from creation to heaven after we die is to live interactively with God.
JOHN ORTBERG: And would you just address the people listening to us and invite them into that life right now?
DALLAS WILLARD: Yes. I think that what you have to say by way of invitation is that if they will in the next issue they confront in their life expect and call for the presence of God in that situation, no matter if you're trying to do something with your plumbing that's gone wrong, or with your child, or your coworkers, just invite God to be a part of that. That's the way to come to know it.
Now, if you have knowledge of Jesus Christ, you get a lot of, shall we say, advanced information on how that's going to go. And we want to count on that, because he is the door to the kingdom of God, insofar as one can be identified by human beings. But still, I mean, the problem there is he's apt to be kind of out of real life, you know?
So what we need to do is understand-- one can put it simply like this-- the next thing you know to be right, do it, and trust God for the consequences. Expect him to be a part of it. And if you hear the little voice that says, well, if you do what is right, it's going to be a disaster, and all these bad things. And then say, well, that's because I'm thinking of it in terms of my own kingdom, and I certainly cannot make it come out right.
But I'm going to do what is right, and trust God, and watch how he brings it out. That is the short route. And there's a lot of things you don't know. Your theology may be skimpy or messed up. But if you approach the kingdom of God at that level, you'll find it. It may not be what you thought it was going to be, but you will find it, because it has a way of taking over and teaching you as you go from there.
JOHN ORTBERG: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING] SHELLEY LEITH: Now that you’ve listened to that very special conversation between Dallas Willard and John Ortberg, you may be intrigued to watch them talk with each other! We have unlocked Session Two of The Divine Conspiracy, so our First Listens listeners can go and see what these guys look like and enjoy a glimpse into the obvious connection they have with each other. The Divine Conspiracy is published by HarperChristian Resources and it streams on Study Gateway. Here at Study Gateway you can find your favorite authors, pastors and Bible teachers, all in one place. We’re the only streaming video subscription service that offers a small group-sized plan, AND has user-based pricing for churches, no matter what the size. And don’t forget, you can use the promo code FIRST to get a 20% savings on a small group plan for the life of your subscription.
With Study Gateway, you also get a direct link to our store, where you get publisher-direct pricing on the essential Bible study guide for The Divine Conspiracy. The study guide gives you what you need to have a great group experience with watching the videos and discussing them, then you have between-sessions activities to help you dig deeper into the Scriptures and apply them to your life. Is The Divine Conspiracy going to be your next study? Get started right now by going to studygateway.com, click start free trial, choose the monthly small group plan, and use the promo code FIRST.
Make sure you rate and review this podcast so other people can find this show too. And come back next week for our next episode in the season on Key Bible Passages Everyone Should Know. Our next session is by yet another heavy hitter in the Bible teaching realm, Tim Keller. He’s teaching on the parable of the Prodigal Son in his study called Prodigal God. We’ll see what he means by calling God a prodigal next time, on Study Gateway’s First Listens.
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