Dave Charest: Today on episode 13 of the Be a Marketer podcast, you'll hear from a business owner who couldn't find a job she liked, so she made one up. And I'm sharing why you should be stealing audience every chance you get. This is the Be a Marketer podcast. B a Marketer my name is Dave Charesthe, director of small business success at Constant Contact, and I've been helping small business owners like you make sense of online marketing for over 16 years. You can be a marketer, and I'm here to help. Well, hello, friend, and welcome to another edition of the Be a Marketer podcast. As always, it's my pleasure to have you here with me today, and I am grateful for your attention. Now, one of the things I found most exciting about the world we live in today is the idea that you can communicate directly with your audience or your customers. The fact that you're listening to my voice right now is a perfect example. The technology exists where you don't necessarily need to pay the gatekeeper, you don't have to deal with the middleman. You can speak directly to your audience. But that does mean, of course, that you have to build an audience, right? And whenever you get the chance, what you really should be doing is looking for the opportunity to steal that audience. Now, let me explain what I mean by that. What I mean is that when you have an opportunity to be in front of people, maybe this is like a guest post on someone else's blog. You speak at an event, you get to be a podcast guest. Or even if you do pay to place ads on someone else's platform, what you should really be doing is looking for ways to get some of those people over to you so that you have a way to contact them again directly. Now, if you think about why you would do any of those things in the first place, it's because someone else has already built an audience and they're giving you the opportunity to access them. Now, once that engagement is over, though, I mean, that's it, right? It's unlikely that those people are going to be thinking about you again, and so you want to take advantage of those moments to provide value and steal that audience. How do you get them from where they are over to you so that then you can contact them directly to continue that relationship. Now remember, it doesn't always have to be a direct sale right away over there. Instead, you offer something of value for free so that they opt into your contact list. Then you can lead them down the path toward a sale in the future and that, to me, is what's so exciting about building an audience today. Well, friend, today's guest, Michelle Cummings, started her first business over 24 years ago, and she's been a constant contact customer almost as long today. You know, she's got a lot of things going on with her two businesses. She's authored multiple books in the team building field. She travels the world as a keynote and workshop presenter. She has a full online store of products, and she co hosts a podcast. Now, as you listen today, I'd like you to pay particular attention to how Michelle has grown her contact list over the years and how she uses it to grow her business. Oh, I mentioned that she even found time to write a novel that's now being made into a movie.
Michelle Cummings: What?
Dave Charest: Let's get the details from Michelle.
Michelle Cummings: My company, training wheels, I started 24 years ago when I couldn't really find a job that I liked, so I made one up. I thought, you know, I'm pretty good at making up games and activities. Maybe I'll make up a job and maybe it'll work for me. So training wheels, we're a creative resource for building teams, so we specialize in team building programs as well as team development for organizations. So I chose the name training wheels for my company because I love the metaphor of the training wheel. So if you think about it, if when you were learning how to ride a bike, some people use training wheels, other people don't. But for those that do, you only use that training wheel for just a little bit before you take that training wheel off, and then you have to try it on your own. Right. And really, that's at the core of all the work that I do, is, is that I'm only with a group for a really short period of time, kind of like today. Right. And then it's up to you to take what you've learned and then own it. And of course, the first couple times you try it, just like when you're learning how to ride a bike with training wheels, it's a little bit wobbly and you feel it's a little scary and whatnot, but it takes some courage for you to give it a try on your own. And then eventually it just becomes a skill that you own and you don't even really have to think about it anymore. So I'm an author in the team building field. I've authored multiple books. I'm a keynote and workshop presenter, at least 15 to 20 conferences annually. During the pandemic, I actually led 45 virtual keynotes during the pandemic. When everybody was at home. And then we also have a full online store full of team building activities and props and things that you can implement into your own trainings and groups and things that you might lead as well.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. So I'm going to have you tell me a little bit about personify, and then I'm going to come back to training whales.
Michelle Cummings: Sounds good.
Dave Charest: Cool.
Michelle Cummings: So, personify leadership. I started about ten years ago, and it's a two day leadership development course that focuses on eight core competencies of effective leadership. And what we find out in the real world is that a lot of people are hired up because they were really good at their job and not because they have great leadership skills. And so our training really focuses on eight very core essential skills that you need to have to be an effective leader in an organization. Our training is fun, it's interactive, it's experiential, and it really can transform the way that you communicate and lead others. So it's a super fun course.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. And for training wheels, how long ago did you start that?
Michelle Cummings: 24 years ago. Yeah.
Dave Charest: Congratulations.
Michelle Cummings: Thanks. Yeah.
Dave Charest: That's amazing. All right, so. And then let's have you tell us a little bit about your writing as well. So you're doing this other thing on the side if you aren't busy enough.
Michelle Cummings: I know. Exactly. Yes. This other thing on the side is I'm actually a novelist as well. I wrote a novel that came out in 2017, and it's called the Real Sisters, which is spelled R E E l because it's about a group of women, fly fishers. So there's five women in the story. There's five main components to a fly rodental, and each one of their personalities kind of metaphorically matches one of the five main components of a fly rod. So it's a great story about the power of women, friendships and how you really can learn a little bit about yourself each time you step into the river. So it's kind of book club meets, a river runs through it. It's kind of the gist of the storyline.
Dave Charest: That's amazing. So, well, tell us the exciting part about this.
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, the exciting part about the book is, yay. It came out in 2017, but it actually got picked up by a screenplay writer this last year, and it is going to be turned into a movie. So, like, that's incredible. I know. Crazy words have never come out of my mouth that this weird, this amazing little story that I kind of just pulled out of my brain is now actually going to be on the big screen. So kind of exciting.
Dave Charest: Yeah. So now I'm curious. Are you a fly Fisher?
Michelle Cummings: You know, I am now. I wasn't. When I decided to write a book, I decided, you know, really, one of my goals for writing a novel was to try to craft a story that would hit the everyday book club market, that would hit the everyday woman, if you will, that maybe hasn't or doesn't spend a lot of time in the outdoors. I personally, I'm pretty outdoorsy. I grew up on a farm. I love camping. I love backpacking and canoeing, like, all of those things. And I firmly believe that you learn so much about yourself when you step outside your comfort zone and try something new in the outdoors. So that was kind of my goal for the book, was to try to craft a story that would be compelling and inspiring enough that would hit that everyday woman or person, and it would maybe encourage them to step outside their comfort zone and try something new. So I thought, if I'm going to ask other women to do it, I have to do it first. So I picked something to write about that I had never done before. So I picked fly fishing. And really, the intent was that I wanted to write from the perspective of a beginner. When you really suck at something, because that's when all your emotions are raw and you're like, oh, you're doubting yourself, why did I do this? Why did I choose this? And I don't really have formal training in novel writing, so it was a steep learning curve. I learned a lot about myself and the process and everything along the way. And the fact that it's now sold thousands of copies worldwide and it's being turned into a movie and all of that is just, it's very surreal. And I could not be more excited.
Dave Charest: That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I guess just, I'm going to ask another curiosity. How did you get it to the point where it's getting picked up to be a movie? Do you have to do anything for that?
Michelle Cummings: Or, you know, I did. That's the crazy part, is that. So when I was writing the book, I have a little vintage travel trailer that I used as my writer's retreat. So I would pull it to a river. I would write for a bit, and then if I got stuck or if I needed a little inspiration for what might happen next in the story, I would throw my waders on, rig up, and then I would just go fishing. And so there was, you know, in the wintertime, I live in Colorado, and so in the winter, I can't always pull my fly fishing trailer to the river because of snow and ice conditions, whatnot. So when that would happen, I would just go to a fly fishing lodge, either somewhere here in Colorado, or if my work travels took me somewhere that had rivers that had great fish in them, I would maybe do the same thing in a different state. So every place. I actually did some writing on the book at. I actually sent a couple copies of the book to when after it came out. And so a screenplay writer happened to be at one of these fly fishing lodges, found my book on their bookshelf and pulled it. She said, I read it cover to cover that weekend. I almost didn't fish. I was so just engrossed in the book. And she got back on a Monday, and she called me Monday afternoon. She was like, this belongs on the big screen. It is just so good. So she goes, can we go under contract for a screenplay? And for me, I was like, let me think about it. Yes. You know?
Dave Charest: Right. Of course.
Michelle Cummings: Of course. I would love for that to happen.
Dave Charest: So, yeah, that's amazing. All right, so I want to go back to training wheels. Okay, so tell me a little bit about what are you doing before training wheels?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, so before training wheels, I got my bachelor's degree in psychology and I got my master's degree in experiential education. So I really started out in the kind of the adventure therapy, ropes course kind of world where I was really helping others learn a little bit about themselves through experience, whether it be on the ropes course, through adventure therapy, different things like that. I worked a lot in the ropes course industry, and when the last position that I held before while working for others was at a resort here in Colorado, and they had built a ropes course structure that they really didn't know what to do with it, so they hired me as their ropes course director. And so the day I moved to Colorado was actually the day I met my husband. So once I got here, I couldn't just pick up and move like I was here for just a short period of time. I was just with him on contract to kind of get their course up and going. So after Paul and I had dated for a little while, then we got engaged. And so then at that point, I couldn't just pick up and move to wherever the next job was, because now I was engaged as this cute boy that I was going to spend the rest of my life with. So anyway, that's when I started training wheels. And so I thought, well, if I can't build a course where people could come to me, maybe I'll build a portable course that could go anywhere in the world. That's really where training wheels was born, was kind of out of necessity of, you know, I looked around for a full time job, and I just couldn't really find anything that fit me and what I really wanted to do. So that's where I took the leap of faith. I was really young when I started my company. I look back now, and I just. I can't even believe at 27 years old that I decided to do this. And, you know, here I am 24 years later, and it's working and working very well. I love what I do. I'm now a thought leader in the industry, and I. It's really exciting and fun to see all the different places that we've gone. So I do use constant contract for my newsletter campaigns that I send out once a week to fans and followers of training wheels and of my work. And, you know, it started out. It started out very small, of course, and I was probably one of the original spammers back in the day when I first started sending this newsletter out. Cause how old is constant contact? I don't even know how old.
Dave Charest: We're over 25 years now.
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, you're over 25 years. Okay. So I didn't know of you quite yet when I first got started, but I had an AOL address when I was.
Dave Charest: So you're doing the BCC's and all that kind of stuff?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, I totally BCC'd everybody at the very beginning until I finally am like, okay, this is not an appropriate way to send a professional newsletter. So that's.
Dave Charest: You do not wanna do that. People listening. This is not what we want to do today.
Michelle Cummings: Do not do that. Do not do that. It is frowned greatly upon. But. So I have been with constant contact for a couple decades now. It's been the only newsletter campaign service that I have used, and it has grown from a couple hundred people to now. I have over 22,000 people in over 100 countries around the world. And it goes out every Wednesday. I try to keep myself on a pretty strict schedule with that. And part of that, I use it as what I call creativity by constraint. And for me, it holds me to a deadline to get great content out to my followers. And, you know, for me, what I also, a firm belief of mine is that I can't just send these 22,000 people's ads on here. Go buy stuff from me. It has to be a value added newsletter or value added content in some way, shape or form. Otherwise, people are going to unsubscribe because we all get tons of emails in our inbox every single day. And the last thing we need to hear is, here, go buy this, Remica, buy this once a week. That's annoying. So the last thing I want to do is be annoying. What I want to do is I want people to save my newsletters because there's such great nuggets and information in there that actually helps them do their jobs better, so they save it. I've had multiple people be on my newsletter list for almost the whole time with me, two decades worth. And they say I have a special folder that all of your emails go into because I can go back years and years and years worth of content and be able to still pull some nuggets out of some of the stuff that you have written for the years that you've been putting out the newsletter.
Dave Charest: Yeah, I just want to pause there for a second because I think that's something that's really amazing and it doesn't really sink in. So I want to make sure that people listening hear it is that you've got this newsletter, 22,000 people, you have people that have been with you for such a long time and they save the newsletters and go back to them. And so what I'm getting at is you're doing your marketing and this is something that people are saying like, oh, yes, like one, they want to have it and that they're saving it and looking forward to you sending your marketing, right?
Michelle Cummings: That's correct.
Dave Charest: And I think that's the beauty of when you start thinking about this opt in type of marketing. Right. And part of the reason why it works so well is because people are saying, yes, they want it, but then if you are focused on providing that value like you are, it becomes just a really just valuable tool, not only for the people receiving it, but for you as the business owner. Right. And so tell me a little bit about that. I mean, like, how does, how does this turn into business for you?
Michelle Cummings: Sure. Absolutely. So I nicknamed my newsletter the spokesperson. So you're going to learn. I love a good metaphor, right? So training wheels is a good metaphor. I'm the big wheel at training wheels, right? So my newsletter is the spokesperson. So it goes out to all of these thousands of people. And really the very first section of my newsletter is what I call tips for trainers. And so trainers, facilitators, people that actually purchase services from me, whether it be a prop or whether they bring me out for training or they hire me for a keynote is that there's going to be some tips and nuggets in there. Here's some best practices on how to be a great facilitator, how to do great team building. So it's either a tip, a trick, or maybe it's last week I was leading a group of corporate CEO's and this topic popped up and here's how I addressed it. Here's a tool that I pulled out of my back pocket or out of my facilitator bag of tricks that really addressed that question or that need. I thought I'd share it with everyone. People love good stories. We learn through story all the time. So if you have a client or you have a best practice, like, hey, I did this and it worked really well for me. And if that could help another person that does something similar to what you do, or it drives people to your site for a sale, then that's what a great little newsletter article that you can do. So of course, whatever tip or trick or activity or prop that I put in my newsletter, of course, lower in the newsletter is here's wheel of a deal Wednesday. Here is where I put three products that are decently on sale that drives people to the website to then make a purchase. I have products that range on my website everywhere from $1 and a half all the way up to $7,000. So there is a very vast range in pricing and I put things dramatically on sale. So that way it pushes people. Wednesdays are always a very good income day for me because 22,000 people were just reminded to go and purchase from me. And even if they don't purchase from me that day, they're going to scroll through, they're still going to find some value out of what they get from me because there's a nugget in there. Maybe it's a totally free piece of advice. It's all of this. But the loyalty that you gain from people and why people stick with me so much is because they're getting something from it. Of course it's a sales tool. People fully recognize it's a sales tool. And at the same time, I give a lot of stuff away for free. And that really will come back to you at some point in time.
Dave Charest: Well, talk to me a little bit about that, right, because I can already hear people saying, and you've probably run into this situation as well, where people are hesitant to give away things for free and say, here's the advice, here's the thing that you can use. And time and time again I've seen it work where people that actually do that are reaping the benefit of that. And so how do you navigate that and how do you perceive that whole thing?
Michelle Cummings: You know, for me, it's around building brand loyalty. It's also around you're building trust and a relationship with the people. I mean, with 22,000 people, I've not met all of them, right? I mean, people find my newsletter. When they opt into the newsletter, they get a free ebook that has nine sample activities from one of the books that I wrote called playing with a full deck. I came up with 52 team building activities using just a deck of playing cards. So right then and there, it's a tool that they probably already have in the top drawer of that junk drawer of life somewhere that they have in their, in their home. And so now they've got nine activities that they can literally go out and they can try out tomorrow, and they haven't even bought anything from me. But of course, if they want to buy the full book, then they sure can. And here's the link on the website to where you could go do that. So it's giving away a little where they can see the quality of the work that you do as well as you give a little to then get something back. I mean, you've just, I've given them a free ebook in exchange for them to hear from me once a week. And I tell them, I promise I will never sell this list. Like all of those things, like that will never happen. And again, that builds trust because people, that does happen out there in the world. So you're building trust that way. But then also they'll see quickly the value in my writing style, who I am, in my personality, and just how the products and services that I have at my company can really aid them and the work that they do.
Dave Charest: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about just this list that you have. So, I mean, 22,000, right? Like, that's amazing. That's like a really nice size list that I'm sure you're ecstatic about. How did you get there? What were the types of things that you would do to build that list?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, so, I mean, of course, on my website I've got a spot, very prominent where they can enter your email address here to opt into our newsletter and receive a free copy of an ebook of Michelle. So that is very prominent right there on the website. But then I go to 15 to 20 conferences annually. And so when I do workshops, when I do keynotes, I've got a QR code that I can throw up. This is scan here to opt into our newsletter and to get the free handouts from today's workshop. And so there are people that have already experienced me live and in person, and during the pandemic, they could do the same thing. I actually, I gained so many new followers during the Pandemic because I was on a worldwide stage from my home. And so that worked very well for me. My list grew from 15,000 to about, at one point in time, I had it up to about 24,000 during the pandemic. And of course, ebb and flow. I'm not for everybody, and I'm fully aware of that, and that's probably okay. But anyway, but I gained a lot of Followers There because there were people that had never met me or been exposed to me in person because maybe they didn't go to any of the conferences or they weren't in the space that I was, and now all of a sudden they saw me. I also use my YouTube channel. I did a lot of free webinars during the pandemic as well. And so when people see it on YouTube and things like that, then you've got a link to opt into the newsletter right there in the show notes of your YouTube channel. I also have a podcast. So now I've got a podcast. And there's always links to our websites and whatnot, and encouraging people to sign up for our newsletters through the podcast as well. So I definitely work hard to get new content or new contacts on a really regular basis. Definitely. I'm not the build it and they will come. I don't just have a website that sits pretty static that people, and just expect people to find me and sign up. I'm out there beating the streets and really doing some good, active work. But at the same time, when people go to a conference and experience me, they have paid the conference to be there. They have not paid me a dime when they sign up for my newsletter now, that's when, all of a sudden, that's when they start to become a client and a contact of my own. And that's when they start receiving the newsletter from me.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. No, that's great. It's one of the things we're constantly telling people to do is that you have to be continually growing that list because of things. Eventually people will unsubscribe. You always need to be growing. And then obviously, the more people that you have, the more people you have to reach out to and all of that always a priority. And it sounds like you're doing a really great job of making that kind of like the next best step right before they even buy anything. Because oftentimes people might not be ready to buy something. And the fact that you can offer them something free and then be able to communicate with them on a regular basis, that's obviously where you want to be, right? So you can have that constant conversation. Are you using any other tools besides email with constant contact right now?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, every once in a while I've used some of the surveys, like the beginning of the year, I put out a few of those because I'm curious, like, what do people want to hear more of from me? Do you want more newsletter articles? Do you want more write ups for activities? So I've put those out. And then also it helps me understand where am I getting my best traction from. So one of the questions I usually ask is, how did you find me? How did you find out about training wheels and Michelle and things like that? So if I see a large surge in one of those options that I have given them, then I'll put more marketing dollars or, or more effort, time, effort and energy into that option if that's going to be where I get the greatest return on new prospects.
Dave Charest: So I love that you say that because I think oftentimes we get so hung up in the things that we can measure. And the reality is, particularly in a field like yours, where you're speaking and you're meeting people and there's kind of this organic pieces of things, you don't necessarily have the right, the tools don't exist to allow you to be able to measure that stuff. Right. And the simplest way, which I love hearing you say, is saying, well, how did you find out about me? It allows you to capture those things that you might not have on Google Analytics or something like that, and the ability to, then this is another piece that I think is great. What I just heard you say was that then you'll focus more effort in that place, because often people I find will try to invest more money to try to get something that isn't working to work versus pouring gasoline on the thing that really does work. Right.
Michelle Cummings: Absolutely. And then I also want to know, like, who's the majority of the people reading my newsletter?
Dave Charest: Yeah.
Michelle Cummings: And so, like, how many years have you been in the field? How long have you been a newsletter subscriber? Like, that's also, that's good data for me to have, because if I have people that have literally been on my list for 15 or 20 years, then I don't want. I mean, every once in a while, I'll recycle something that I wrote, like, five years ago, because, you know, Wednesday creeps up once a week, and I tell you, there are some mornings I wake up and I go, oh, my gosh, it's Wednesday day again. But again, that whole creativity by constraint, I love that because it does it a. It kind of, quote unquote, forces me to be creative. But at the same time, I've also created this relationship where people. Where they're kind of expecting something from me. And if I miss a Wednesday, I miss a Wednesday. Like, I actually didn't write it last Wednesday because I was on the road and I was training and I was traveling, and it just got to be. I got. I literally sat down on a computer. I opened it up, and I went to do it. I was just like, I have used up all my words today. I just don't have a creative spark in me. So I didn't write it last week, and I actually heard from a few people by Friday, like, hey, did you do a newsletter? I missed it. Did it hit my spam folder or whatever it was? I'm like, no, sorry. I didn't write it. And they're like, okay, no worries. I was just checking. So what I love about that is that people are anticipating, and they're really excited to get new content. And so, again, that whole. It forces me to be creative, and I need that because I'm a very. I'm a creative person who likes results. And so, with that, I know that this is one avenue that really helps drive results for me that I've had two decades worth of great traction and track record with to help me get there. So I like that.
Dave Charest: Yeah, that's great. Talk to me. I'm assuming, you know, you're keeping track of these things that you're talking about in terms of your contacts and the things that you know about them. You're keeping track of that within constant contact as well.
Michelle Cummings: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we do go in. I mean, you know, of course people change their email addresses, they change jobs, things like that. So I do go in and, you know, every once in a while, not all the time, but every once in a while, I'll go in and do a good cleanup of the list and get rid of those that are bouncing and stuff like that. So, yeah, I go in there and do a little cleanup every once in a while.
Dave Charest: Yeah. How about in terms of you doing any segmentation or anything like that in order of how you're sending things out?
Michelle Cummings: I mean, I do have a print catalog. I mean, we have our online store, different things like that. But as far as, like anything else through constant contact, I haven't done very many drip campaigns. When new people have come on or anything like that, I pretty much they all go into the wheel of a deal Wednesday folder. Then every once in a while if I've got. So like, the military is a really big client of mine and I know when the military's end of fiscal budget year is, that's always a really good time for me because that's when there they have to spend, they have user lose it money, so they have to spend it by September 30. So August is always when I send an email out to everybody that has a military email address, just have one, you know, special folder for them and it's just another reminder like, oh, that's right, like, hey, spend your fiscal dollars here. Here's a coupon code that you can use to take a specific percentage off of your order and things like that. So I use it in that way as well.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. Well, talk to me a little bit about how are you using like, what role does social play in all that you do here?
Michelle Cummings: That's a great point. Yeah. I also, anytime I write a newsletter, I also, I first send out the newsletter and then I capture that link that is a unique link to that specific newsletter. And then I go and create a social post with it and it goes out to my LinkedIn, to my Facebook, and to my Twitter profiles. And I like that because there's a lot of people that actually might find me on social that actually aren't subscribers of my newsletter. So I like that I can actually gain more subscribers because they see it posted on social as well. I use canva to create a lot of my thumbnails that might go out on social as well. So that's another great resource that you can use. Before canva existed, I used to just create my own, and they're so much better now that canva.
Dave Charest: Are you using the integration with canva in constant contact?
Michelle Cummings: I have not done that yet. I probably should, should try that out, maybe. I don't even know that that was a thing.
Dave Charest: Well, that is a thing. And we can, we'll send you some details about that so you can start to use that because that'll save you some time from doing the old I'm going to create an image, I'm going to download the image. I'm going to upload the image and do all that so it connects right to your canva account, which is exactly.
Michelle Cummings: What I do right now.
Dave Charest: So we'll get that going. Have you ever considered you're doing social to get people aware of things using, of course, the newsletter. Have you ever considered. Obviously, text is a big topic these days in terms of being available to small businesses. Have you ever considered using text messaging at all?
Michelle Cummings: You know, through my personify leadership course, I do use an SMS service. Once someone goes through our course, we use it to send out course reminders. So that's really where the only time that I've really actively used sms work with promoting or marketing or anything like that. And it's really more around content knowledge. It's around reinforcing what they already learned in the course and things like that.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. I guess I'll ask another question. Were you aware that constant contact now offers text marketing?
Michelle Cummings: No, I wasn't.
Dave Charest: All right, so maybe we'll have to get you underneath that as well.
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, no doubt. Absolutely.
Dave Charest: Cool. So, you know, I want to go back to a few things. Just I want to learn a little bit bit more about kind of your business and how you kind of got here. Right. You know, one of the things, I guess saying you started your own thing, but how did you get to the point where this was the thing that you were going to do?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, that's a great question. A lot of it came out of necessity and not being able to find something that I really, truly love doing. And also, like, I didn't know that I was a serial entrepreneur, but I guess I am because that's what I owned. Both my companies and the novel and all of that, you know, working for other people I loved working towards and achieving a goal for other people. I really liked that. But then when it came down to it, I was like, I've built this. You know, I've helped build all these other companies up because of my skill and my talent and whatnot. So why not turn around and do that then for myself now? It was a super scary leap. Of course, when I was young and the Internet, the Internet was still kind of new, I feel like when I started it, so, like, I bought a website and I was like, the most money I had spent on anything except for buying a car at the time I was 27. And I'm like, man, I really hope this Internet thing sticks around. So I took a lot of risk, but I'm not afraid of risk. Risk is something that I'm actually very comfortable with other people that are more risk adverse. I can't even imagine it would be way even more scarier for them, but I'm pretty comfortable with risk. So it's one of those, I would try something, and if it didn't work, I would just try something different. The newsletter list, it started working for me very early on, and so that's why I stuck with it. And again, that growing it over the last 20 some years, with 22,000 people on my list, growing a thousand people a year on average, is pretty good. And considering the amount of competition and other sites that are out there that do this as well, the fact that people choose to stay with me because they're getting something valuable out of it means a lot to me. So I'm definitely a very giving person. But I also know that in giving, I end up getting back in return, of course.
Dave Charest: Yeah. So did you have any doubts when you first getting started?
Michelle Cummings: Oh, absolutely. 100%, yes. I doubted myself very often at the very beginning because part of it was my age was, who's going to think that this 27 year old has anything to teach them about effective communication and teamwork and effective leadership and all that? She's so young and, you know, and of course, my list was very small in my first several years, and really what kind of turned the corner for me and my company was when I authored my first book. And once that came out, I then became seen as a thought leader. And also, there's not a lot of women in my space either. It's a very male dominated field. So then all of a sudden, I started seeing a little bit of shift in that, that they actually wanted a little bit my more diversity and gender and age and whatnot. So that, I think, also really benefited me. My first book came out in 2004, and once that came out, and I've written, like, seven other books since then. So, you know, every few years, another one comes out and it just continued, creating new content and putting that out there. And then, of course, I do a newsletter and do the anticipation leading up to it, do the pre sales, do all of that, and those are always very successful for me.
Dave Charest: So when you start thinking about, you know, obviously we're learning by doing right as you were kind of getting into this and starting your own thing, but did you have anyone that kind of helped guide you along the way? Were there somebody that you went to for advice? Like, where were you learning things about running your own business?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, actually, I didn't really have a lot of mentors which was, I'm also a very. I will forge my own way. I also will tell you that there were several people that told me that it would never work, and that what I do, like, there's. You know what? There's already enough people that do this. We don't need. There's not really space in the industry for somebody new. And all that did was just light a fire in me.
Dave Charest: I was going to say, you seem like the person where you. Oh, I can't do that. I'll show you.
Michelle Cummings: Oh, really?
Dave Charest: Yeah, exactly right.
Michelle Cummings: And now, to be honest, I don't have a lot of competition in some spaces, in some of the aspects of what I do is because I have built that brand loyalty, I have built that reputation up over the course of the last 24 years. And our podcast does very well now and again, that's reaching people that when they search just team building on podcasts, now they're finding us. And so, again, I mean, I put a lot of hours into delivering content that doesn't necessarily cost anyone to receive it. Right. Like podcasts. You can download a podcast episode and listen to whatever, but when they hear something in there, they're like, ooh, I want that. They're gonna go buy it from me because they heard it from me or I created it or whatever it was. So they're gonna go and they'll do their homework. They'll shop around a little bit, of course, but the more they build loyalty with you as either the face of your company or the brand behind it, or just the mission in what you do and how you do it, that actually will get people to more often not want to purchase from you directly.
Dave Charest: Yeah. What's the name of the podcast?
Michelle Cummings: It's called Ask Michelle and Chris about team building. I have a co host, Chris Cavart, who's another author in the team building field. He's written, like, 15 books, and he and I have been colleagues. We actually, unbeknownst to us, we sat next to each other in our very first graduate class together. So we're both getting our master's degrees at the same time in experiential education. And they were doing an icebreaker. They said, turn to the person sitting next to you and discuss this icebreaker question. It was Chris Gavert. That's where I first met him. And now, however many years later, I got my degree a long time ago, even before I started my company. But anyway, unbeknownst to us, we'd both end up being thought leaders in the field. So that's kind of cool, too.
Dave Charest: Funny how those things come around sometimes.
Michelle Cummings: I know, yeah.
Dave Charest: As you look back on the accomplishments that you've had, what would you say has been the biggest challenge for you as a business owner so far?
Michelle Cummings: Learning the hard way is always a challenge. I will say there seems definitely things that I would go back and do differently had I had the knowledge or had a mentor or had something like that in front of me or to help me along the way.
Dave Charest: Do you have an example?
Michelle Cummings: Let's see. One piece of advice that I always give new business owners in particular is go get a business line of credit before you need it. That's one of those things that I didn't ever really think about. I'm like, you start a company, you've got a little bit of money to spend on it or whatever, and then when you spend it, you're like, well, now what for me? And of course, I just didn't understand how that all works. That's one nugget that I always tell people, get a business line of credit before you need it and then pay it off very quickly. Don't hold balances and things like that. Those are things as a young entrepreneur I didn't have knowledge in and those are things I would do differently and possibly even finding a mentor, finding somebody that could actually help you and that you can ask questions to along the way that probably would have helped me in a lot and back, I don't know, 27 years ago or 24 years ago. I don't know if the professional coaching field was as prominent. I know it wasn't as prominent as it is now, but now a quick Google search in 0.2 seconds, you can find all kinds of people that will really help you grow your business where that didn't really exist when the Internet was new.
Dave Charest: Do you have a coach now?
Michelle Cummings: I don't, actually. I have colleagues who are coaches. So I will say there are times where I reach out to them to definitely to reach out and ask questions of and whatnot. I don't have an actual professional coach right now.
Dave Charest: Gotcha. So I do want to go back, though. Biggest challenge so far?
Michelle Cummings: Biggest challenge so far. That is a great question. Let's see here. Biggest challenge for me is time. That's really what it boils down to, is that I'm a very busy person, but I don't like that word. I'm actually, my schedule is always intentionally full because I actually choose everything that I do. Right. You know, this client needs this. I need to do this. I need to do this. So it's, my schedule is intentionally full. I just wish I had more time to get it all done because I really do love what I do. And so, but I also, that whole work life balance can sometimes be a real challenge for me. You know, the fact that one of my kids said, mom, do you realize you've only slept in your own bed nine times this year? Like, I'm like, yeah, I have. I was, you know, I travel internationally, and when I do that, I'm gone for long periods of time. So having a little bit more time just to do more of the things that I really love doing would be great.
Dave Charest: Well, one, I'll say thank you for choosing to spend some time with us here today. I really appreciate that. Also, how do you approach then, your calendar? What type of person are you in terms of being intentional about that and how you spend your days?
Michelle Cummings: Yeah, you know, because I have multiple interests. I've got training wheels. I have personify, I have real sisters. I have all of these things. I have to be very intentional with blocking out weeks to be creative, because really, what drives my company is the creativity behind coming up with new things and a new storyline or a new leadership course or a new activity that's going to go out and make an impact in teams around the world. And so I have to block out time for creativity. And I try to be really protective of that time when I finally am like, okay, this is the week I'm going to do this. It also dangles a carrot for me that I'm like, oh, I cannot wait to get there. And then I can try to turn my brain off when I lay down at night, but that doesn't always happen. But then I, but I'm like, okay, I know that I want to do this. I want to do this, I want to do this. And, you know, also carving out time to write my newsletter once a week, that is also something that it has to be done because, again, that's what helps drive more business. Right. To us and drives more sales, and it helps with revenue and all that. So, yeah, I just, I have to be real intentional with carving out not only days where I'm client facing, but also days where I'm in the office where I could do good writing, and then days where I go away from the office to where I could be really creative, to go to my writer's retreats and do things like that, where I could be intentionally creative as well.
Dave Charest: Yeah. Intention seems to be the key word in any of this. Right? It's just making sure you're carving out those moments for yourself. I love that.
Michelle Cummings: Yeah.
Dave Charest: So here you are 24 years later with training wheels, ten years with personified leadership, having many successes. How does that accomplishment make you feel?
Michelle Cummings: Well, pretty darn awesome. I mean, you know, I love it. I feel very fortunate that I live in a day and age where I get to really kind of create my own thing and love what I do. I also love being in the business of making people better people. That's what we do at training wheels. That's what we do at personify. So when you do really good work that, you know, is making a positive impact in the world, that's stuff that just, that that excites me. It keeps me energized. Now, of course, I get burnt out. There are times where I'm just like, if I have to stare at this one more time, there's times where I'm like, I just have to get away and go do something and recharge my own batteries. But, you know, for the most part, I still wake up pretty excited about what I get to do, not what I have to do. Of course there's things you have to do in business, but I still truly love what I do. And that is also. That helps me. I was going to say it helps keep me going.
Dave Charest: So, so you mentioned a little bit of business advice earlier. What would you say is your best piece of marketing advice for someone?
Michelle Cummings: You know, I would say it is setting a schedule and then keeping to it. That whole, you know, wheel of a deal Wednesday, the spokesperson newsletter. That is something that just, again, when clients could expect that from you, I think it's helpful. So that's one thing that I. And again, making it value added. Don't just sell stuff to people. Create some sort of value in it that people want to read it because you're putting time, effort and energy into it already. So you might as well make it that something that someone's like, oh, it's her again, delete before they even open it, that make sure that it's something, whether it's the title, whether it's or it's. They, you've routinely delivered quality content that then they want to open it and they can't wait to read what it is that you have to say. It's going to benefit them personally or their business in some way, shape or form.
Dave Charest: Well, friend, let's recap some items from that discussion. Number one, think of your marketing channels as a way to add value. Michelle's audience has a special folder where they save her newsletter because they find the content valuable and they want to reference it again. Now think about the power of that people not only looking forward to your marketing but saving it as well. Well thats a great place to be when it comes to keeping your business top of mind. Number two, build trust in relationships by sharing your expertise. This is like giving people free samples at the grocery market. Youre giving people a taste of your thinking, approach and even what it may be like to work with you. People get to see the quality of your work and in doing so youre building trust allowing people to see your value and how you can help them. And number three, use your calendar to protect your time. Be intentional. Block off time to get things done, including your marketing tasks. Michelle holds herself to deadlines so she can get great content out to her followers and you should too. It's consistency over time that makes your efforts so powerful. So hold yourself accountable by scheduling time to do the work. All right, here's the action item I'd like to leave you with here for today. Focus on your list building efforts. Think of every engagement as an opportunity to build your list. Make a list of what you can do to grow your contact list in person, in print and online. And don't forget about those opportunities to steal audience as well. Be sure to take advantage of the constant contact list growth tools available to you in your account. Remember, at the end of the day, if you focus on providing value and letting people know how to buy from you, list growth is customer growth. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Be a Marketer podcast. If you have questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me directly at dave.charest@constantcontact.com. If you did enjoy today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a review. Your honest feedback will help other small business marketers like yourself find the show. Well friend, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and continued success to you and your business.