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Regenerative by Design Podcast where we get to the root of health, climate, economics and food. Host, Joni Kindwall-Moore, is an RN, an Ethnobotanist and the founder of Snacktivist Foods. Join us on this journey as we explore the ideas, stories and personalities behind the regenerative food system movement including climate change, human health, economics and food as well as other deeply interconnected topics.
In this podcast, we will be “going there” and leaning into topics that might make you squirm… just a little. We want to challenge ourselves to think outside of the box and to discover the deeper side of our world’s problems so that we can better understand how to solve them.
We aim to unpack some of the most dynamic issues of our day with some of the most inspiring minds who are pushing the boundaries of our current norms and thinking paradigms.
We have seen incredibly disruptive events in the past few years like pandemics, climate events, disasters and war. These often trigger system changes that are reactionary and have short term gains. When these are practiced over the long term, they often have a degenerative effect on health and the environment.
Regenerative design thinking is the opposite, and is an intentional, premeditated process that involves a high level of observation, analysis, creativity, and looking beyond reductionistic principles while embracing systems thinking and additionality to create regenerative solutions.
Regenerative agriculture has become a powerful force for positive transformation and hope in todays world. And no discussion about agriculture is complete without a conversation about food.
Food is the connection between people and the planet so grab a cup of coffee or your favorite running shoes and get ready to take a mental and philosophical leap into the future of food and our planet.
Hello everyone, you are
listening to the regenerative by
design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. I
am your host, Joanie Kenmore.
Join me on this journey as we
explore the stories of
individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our
food system with both human
health and the health of our
planet.
Welcome everybody to the
regenerative by design Podcast.
I'm Joanie, your host, and I am
super thrilled with our guest
today, Carter Williams, if you
don't follow his work, he's one
of the more fascinating people
that is out there really driving
culture and conversation shift
in the world of regenerative
food systems, finance and the
interface with healthcare. So,
welcome, Carter,
thank you for having me.
I have to say I marvel at the
things that you do and the
energy that you put into all of
your work. And I would love for
you to just have the opportunity
to tell our audience a little
bit about your work today and
what your current projects are I
select fund and your various
like communities that you're
building on WhatsApp and
LinkedIn and beyond.
Yeah, so we are I, I, I'm part
of the I select team I select as
a venture capital firm we are
focused are in and around the
area of a topic that we call
food is health. And they the
macro perspective on that is we
spend 1.7 trillion on food in
the United States, we spend 1.9
trillion on the health care cost
of poor nutrition in the United
States. So the thing is, is not
helping us with the health care
cost. That number is 14 trillion
globally. So it's not just a US
thing. And so we invest in ag
tech and health tech, that both
work to solve what we might most
likely call metabolic disease,
type two diabetes and related
issues in cardiac cardiology,
cardiovascular disease and
Alzheimer's. I pretty deep tech
investors in that. So on the Ag
tech side, we invest in
everything from soil health up
through ingredients, and
genetics and microbiome and all
the geeky things. So one might
talk about the healthcare side,
it's similar in terms of
therapeutics and data analysis
such or driving the overall is,
is big work connecting there
many people who just worry about
ag tech, there's some people
just worry about health tech,
and there's some people just
worried about Foodtech. Our
general perspective is that the
ag industry has been, you know,
for whatever, however many years
is a commodity food system that
there are different layers, and
that that may be focused on how
do you get corn to market and
soy, we, we really start to see
a shift in which the consumer
says I want to eat healthier, I
want to go to the grocery store.
And I wanted to be sort of easy
for me to make the right
choices. Yes, you want at the
grocery store to say we got
consumers that want the right
choices available to them. So
suppliers you need to, you need
to think more about the
nutritional quality of what
you're doing. And you got to
make it affordable. And then we
want Nestle to sort of reach
back into the supply chain, say,
well, we maybe have pizza, but
we want it to be better wheat.
And and so all sudden you're
connecting the dots from the
consumer. And really, as you
continue through that evolution,
and this is how we think about
it. You continue through that
evolution all the way back to
the soil,
that energy and the genetics.
And so
all those little things, all
those strings, where we've
optimized that to say who's the
best person at crushing corn and
soy now? And how do we make sure
that this oil and corn and other
wheat and and other crops that
come through the system have got
nutritional density? So to do to
do that you really got a, what
you find is that there are
entrepreneurs in each segment of
that industry who are as crazy
as you and I are. And they're
alone. They're there in their
area saying I see this thing
happening. And so what we
started to do is we created some
online communities on WhatsApp.
We've tried a bunch of different
things, but for some reason
WhatsApp sort of works. And
we've created some subgroups.
And there are, you know, one
around farmers who are early
adopters. Another one around
food is health. And that sort of
spurred a group there's a little
bit more understanding climate
and so we've got a few different
groups there that really
represent Yes, you do other
other people who see an
opportunity here And they're all
trying to sort of figure out how
to run a business in conjunction
with Enoch forward. And so we,
and
diverse thinking, I mean, as
someone who is part of these
groups and thoroughly enjoys
them, it's a very interesting
Think Tank approach, where you
literally have ideas coming in
from all over the place. And
they get like hashed through
this engine where people can
ping in and talk. And I feel
like it's really simple. Like,
sometimes things get definitely
very passionate and heated. But
because everybody's aligned with
the big vision of what is trying
to be achieved here, which is,
you know, reuniting the
community around this switch
from just an efficiency driven
system to an effective system,
and all the different things
that are needed to make that
realignment occur. And I'm
really impressed with how it's
come together. It's a very
exciting group. And I'm just
appreciative of the work that
you guys are putting into that
to facilitate that community.
We have no idea why it works.
It's great. It's a really great
community, saying
that it's hard. From the
background on this, it's hard to
understand whether it's during
the right direction, I think
it's it's a quality of folks.
And we do do one other thing, a
couple of things we do do is we
sort of like Who else should be
on this call. I use a little bit
of our leverage to draw in other
people who, who normally
wouldn't be part of the
conversation. I'm always
thinking of who else we can add
to that who will add and
contribute and you really can't,
can't be on there unless you
want to participate.
Right. And, you know, I was just
at a braid conference earlier
this week. And it was a
fantastic group of folks very
much Northwest. oriented. And I
don't think there's a whole lot
of participation from the
Pacific Northwest and those
groups, there's a few that I've
connected with, because they
were like, Oh, hey, you're here,
too. And, um, but it made me
realize there's like a whole
group of really leading edge
farmers that I work with
extensively here in the in the
Inland Northwest, that would be
really awesome to add to that
group. So make that happen.
Yeah, there. And I think out
here in the Northwest, just like
you said, I think one of the
biggest pain points and why this
is a fantastic community is that
there are so many people
innovating but they're like, out
in their silos literally. And
when you're dealing with people
in, in, in ag, you're dealing
with rural populations in
general. And they're they're
kind of used to like operating
out there a little bit lone wolf
style, because it's the nature
of, of agriculture and ranching.
And so to give those folks an
avenue to come into an ecosystem
that's more connected and have
that framework for sharing
information is actually really
powerful. And I think that
that's one of the reasons that
people are responding so well to
it.
Yeah, we were on I, this
morning, I don't know if you're
tracking this morning, but we
had a little bit of conversation
that then we were like, Hey, we
should get on the Zoom. And so
then we had a zoom and saw that
it was on the Zoom. And one guy,
one guy was like, Oh, I'm gonna
second I got I got to deal with
a diesel. And he was he was
loading the diesel on the
tractor and firing up the
tractor while we were having a
zoom, had to rethink the
adoption cycle in agriculture.
And that's just the way we roll.
i It's like, we don't have to
all be sitting in a room and do
this. And they're their people.
Yeah. But having some of those
ad hoc conversations has been
helpful in terms of digging at
something and you know, online,
only go so far, and we're pretty
active about trying to fire
people up on a phone just to
talk through, get better.
Well, you know, certainly one of
the pain points that is palpable
amongst rural people in general,
but especially, we're all people
who are involved with any
natural resource extraction
industry. So like, whether that
be fishing, farming, timber,
even mining. You know, there's,
there's this interesting
cultural divide that has always
existed. I grew up in a very
rural community, and I still
live in a somewhat rural
community. So I'm up against
this a lot where I feel like,
like our people, I say that like
rather loosely, but you know,
the rural population often feels
like nobody really wants to hear
what we have to say. And often,
bro, people can have a
reputation of being a little bit
more quiet and not as intrusive
into conversations. And so I
feel like this is a really
fascinating opportunity to bring
people who are often not heard
into a situation where they feel
safe to speak and share what
they're thinking. What are your
thoughts on that?
Yeah, so we're actually i The
environment is fascinating from
a standpoint like we're talking
about food is health and so when
we're talking about food itself,
we're thinking about improving
people's health care and
wellness. And in In so doing,
we're also realizing that
there's a Nexus going on local
regional health care systems and
many of the things are are
stumbling by locals food supply
chains in terms of speed For the
food is a little bit of a topic
that's come up that that we have
a bit more in our, in the groups
and, and some more focus a
little bit more Roycroft
focused. Yeah, specialty, we've
got some tree fruit. So we've
got a few a little bit of
representation at a Yakama i But
I'd say most dominantly row crop
and and I one of the other
conversation starters show up
more on the healthcare side of
the equation is that the the
rural systems are a little
stumbly. So now there's a lot of
work through Aaron Martin's work
at at some of the prescription
produce prescription programs in
Oklahoma. Could we can we engage
the regional healthcare systems
who are trying to address
metabolic error? Can we address
the regenerative farmers who are
starting to change their
practices? And then is there a
way to sort of actually bring in
a little bit more local fresh
specialty, that area and then
nexus of information flowing
around?
It's and that's really
important. There's
that community as a whole cares
about the community. There's
enough ability to each other I
think everywhere else people
care about the community, but
but in some more regional and
more rural areas. It's easier to
get to know your neighbor and
and kind of connectivity. So
it's an interesting incubation
area for what's happening. It
is and a few things when it
comes to the health system
interface in rural communities
is that what is markedly
different is having worked in
critical access hospitals and
towns that were under 5000
people and also in like bigger,
you know, hospitals and larger
communities. I've worked I've
worked in both and I went to
nursing school to a nursing
school that had a focus on rural
healthcare system development,
specifically for diet related
disease. Binghamton University
in upstate New York has a
program focused on that. And so
yeah, yeah, so that's why I went
there. I moved there from
Alaska, I was living in
Fairbanks. And I moved all the
way to upstate New York to go
specifically to this program
because of their rural health
delivery system focus. Because
I've been working in NIH and
remote community health dynamics
and learned a lot, especially
when I was part of the Montana
hypertension coalition. When I
was working in rural Montana, we
had a statewide initiative to
try to figure out how the rural
health care providers across the
state could come together to
create accessible and equitable
programs for for for diet to
access because in these tiny
communities, their food deserts,
there's literally not access to
fresh food, especially at this
time, this was like in 2008. And
so I was frontlines on the very
first waves of GLP, one agonist
type drugs, and pharmacists 2008
to 2012. And so, there was a lot
of really interesting research
coming out, because at that
time, we started seeing true
clinical studies that were
proving that pre diabetes could
indeed be reversed. And when we
did the economic mapping of what
that actually did to the GDP of
a state like Montana, where if
you can keep people who are pre
diabetic from developing full
blown diabetes, in especially in
rural communities where they
don't have access to diabetes,
education, clinics, and food,
etc. It was actually such a
financially big deal that the
state got behind it and said,
we've got to do something about
this. I ended up at that time
moving to Alaska, so I didn't
follow where the project went.
But what you guys are talking
about in that specific foodist
health Whatsapp group with Aaron
Martin and her fantastic work at
roots. Our X actually had her on
the podcast two years ago, or
two and a half years ago. So
we're gonna have her filter over
them. Yeah, yeah. So I had her
on and I think it was, I
couldn't find very many podcasts
of her at the time, but as
somebody who's an RN, and worked
in public health, and also was
an ethno pharmacologist, so my
whole work and my first career
was studying how the
phytonutrients in food and
medicinal plants affect, you
know, disease, human health. So,
it you know, I fell in love with
her work, the minute I heard
about her and learned about her,
and because it's so spot on, and
it's literally why I left
nursing, and founded a food
company and an ag innovation
company and a tech company,
because if we don't realign Food
and Ag with human health and
climate outcomes, the healthcare
system will implode and I saw
that at the bedside. I mean, I
was ICU nurse for a long time.
My husband was an ER trauma
nurse for 20 years. And, you
know, went through COVID. And he
ended up leaving and joining me
on the frontlines of
regenerative food system
transformation among other
health care providers that we
worked with for a long time. So
it's just it's just fascinating
that you guys are really, you
know, stirring the pot and
bringing in the right people
that are needed to get this to
the next level. There's so much
siloed conversation amongst
healthcare Are people amongst
food people amongst farmers and
ag people, but getting everybody
together? So we can create an
ecosystem that's focused on the
same goal. That's where where
the work is gonna get done? Why
do you think we get them
engaging more with each other? I
mean, are they online groups
who've got, or maybe touched
about 200, people all told a few
different groups. But once more
overlap, and they, what's your
sense of how to get a broad
array of people to see the art
of the possible? You know,
what's been fascinating in the
last few months, has been these
conversations about mainstream
media, and capturing a lot of
the thought leadership
conversations and work that's
happening out there in the
trenches, and putting it in a
media forum, that that gets mass
exposure and adoption, like even
like NatGeo, or even YouTube,
Netflix, things like that, where
suddenly people who are curious,
and they're sitting in an area
where they don't feel like they
have a connection to food or
health or anything, maybe they
work in a totally different
industry, and they work, they
live in an apartment in downtown
Dallas, Houston, you know, and
they just feel like, they don't
feel like they have a place of
interface. That's where more
mainstream media movies etc, can
really be, I think catalyzing to
people who feel disconnected,
and give them a way to start to
feel like they can be
participants rather than outside
of the system where you feel
like you have no control. That's
just one thought.
And you've got a bit of a hike
in front of us. Um, one of the
things I recently testified to
the US Senate on this topic, and
one of the things that we're
trying to do there is say that
there is an array of companies
coming forward, they're filling
in the blanks, the notion that
and you, you see elements of
this, so I, a few grocery chains
are starting to sell GLP one,
which is a to some degree, like,
do we want people on ozempic? Or
don't we? There's a little
wobbly as to whether that's
exactly the right answer. But
But if someone's got a BMI of
35, or an agency of seven or
eight, it's a logical
risk versus benefits equation.
And it all comes down to that,
right. But
then you start thinking is like,
okay, for talking really, this
is a nutritionally related
disease is, you know, health
care doctors that I talked to
have a total of somewhere
between 45 minutes 10 hours of
training and nutrition. Yeah.
But there's this expectation
that I'm gonna go to my doctor,
and they're gonna be on top of
it. And whereas if we start
thinking that there's something
closer to the grocery, that,
that you can touch, and maybe
get some clinical care at the
same time in some fashion, but
then around a fashion that you
you mainstream yourself back
into a better, better nutrition.
There's a lot of fascinating
opportunity there. I mean, if
you think go to the big numbers,
it's 1.7 trillion on food in the
US 1.9 trillion on the health
care costs of poor nutrition. So
sad. These are massive markets
that yeah,
that's like an insane amount of
money. That's an insane amount
of money or
dream excitement around it that
AI does. And yeah, and I, and I
think it is getting there. Mm
hmm. I think it's, it's the
notion that I want to live
longer, and I want AI both seem
like and the list of like, these
are things that make life more
enjoyable, perhaps. Yes. And so
we are starting to see the
energy move in that direction.
At the same time, the venture
market is awful right now, the
broader have collapse, because
for the most part, external
reasons, and interest rates went
up, that causes bonds to change
that causes capital allocators
to change. So something
completely unrelated right to be
here. And so it's also a
fascinating period, from the
standpoint that smart startups
are working hard and can't get
capital. And so there's an
interesting arm salutely, where,
if we all stick with it, we have
a choice, we can stick with it
and push forward and have the
strongest ones push on the other
side with a new approach, or we
could stumble and euthanize some
of these startups and have
nothing it's aI best of times
worst of times there but it's it
is utterly clear to me that the
momentum towards food is health
is momentum. It's it's not gonna
reverse. Yeah, many good people
involved like yourself, then
involved in this. It's
It's true momentum. I mean, the
shift is definitely happening.
And I see it as an entrepreneur
that's, you know, been living
through this crazy financial
period ever since the COVID. Hit
And you know what the bad thing
is, is a lot of great startups
and great innovators will go
dark, unfortunately. But on the
upside, for me personally, the
business models that I had
proposed in 2019, like for
sectors of this, for example,
because an activist is totally
focused on realignment of food
and egg systems with human
health and climate outcomes,
specifically in drought and heat
resistant crops, and all the way
down to the germ plasm, like
full, full transparency, in
2019, when I brought that
business model up to people, and
mentioned like I wanted full
transparency delivered by
blockchain, I got laughed out of
rooms, people were like, No way,
no how go start a brand. I mean,
that's what moms do anyways,
like, you kind of have
permission to start a food brand
if you're a mom. And, and, you
know, like, in a way, I'm almost
grateful that now we have a
financial environment that is
actually listening to truly
innovative business plans,
again, instead of just expecting
you to do the status quo,
because that's what's been
working for the last decade.
Because finally, people are
really excited about my original
sacrafice business plan. So
we've been able to put the
branded stuff on the side burner
and go way back. And now we're
working with farmers to grow
germplasm for crops that have
like insane medicinal
properties. And it's built right
into the food. And we're
commercializing those, those,
you know, underutilized crops
all the way through the value
chain, and then providing
innovation and support on the
market end. And I'm just hoping
that the financial market perks
up enough to start supporting
companies like an activist in
doing that, but I feel like
finally, because of this
disruptive event that's hit the
financial markets people are,
are actually listening to
innovative business models,
where before they were like, no,
no, no, don't try to do
something new. Just do what
already works, start a brand, go
sell it, make some money, and
then you'll have the money to
finance this crazy, experimental
disruptive company you're
talking about. So in a way, I'm
grateful, I guess, even though
it's been rough,
it's a next kind of thing that
we got to fiddle with is, is
start to shift some of the
insurance models, I think that
the Yes, lifestyle medicine work
and the work that's been done up
by the college lifestyle
medicine to sort of shift the
care delivery model from that
side. And then on the other
side, you have people like
Aaron, who really driving
produce prescription. We should,
I'm not in love, frankly, with
sort of medical tailored meals
from a standpoint of let's
create a new subsidy for that
kind of stuff. But it makes
sense for many people to get
better access that way. And so
we're gonna Yeah, we're gonna
have some chips. It's
kind of meeting people where
they're at, I think, because
that's a delivery system that
can like, kind of give them a
gateway drug to better food and
in eating in a way that they
never would have done before.
Because the barriers to train it
would have been too high.
Stage and innovations can be
like, if that comes online and
some fashion is that would then
become the new prescription
orders that a new is, is there
an off ramp to a more
traditional food system? And so
I think we'll see some shifts
going on. But I do think that
the, you know, when I talk to
health care providers that the
like hospitalists, they're
they're seeing a higher and
higher incidence of people
coming in with quorum abilities.
Yeah. And not having the
capacity. So like, if someone's
in for cancer treatment, and
then the dominant issue is not
the cancer, but their diabetes,
it becomes very difficult for
the care provider who might be
an expert in Oh, yeah.
So and it's a length of stay
issue as well, which again,
insurance companies are really
focused on. So, um, you know, as
somebody who literally has been
at the bedside going, Wow, this
could have been a fairly simple
procedure, and a fairly simple
plan of care. But because we're
managing the comorbidities,
that's why this patient is in
the ICU for six weeks. And our
ICUs across the country are full
of those folks. Because of
chronic renal failure secondary
to chronic diabetes and high
blood pressure. Like there's so
many levels of the comorbidities
and, and how that affects like
the state is a very documented
financial hit to our healthcare
system. I mean, I just I call
our our health care system, the
palliative care unit have our
diets. I mean, it's what it is.
And we're really good at
treating trauma. We're really
good at treating emergencies. I
really value what Western
medicine can deliver in those
situations. But unfortunately,
our system is so bogged down and
full of chronic care, that it
actually takes the time and
expertise away from really
shining in those moments of
trauma and severe emergency
interventions where we shine. So
it's literally drowning and
killing the good that our system
can deliver.
Did you still say I dialysis is
1%? of the federal budget? Yeah.
Which I'm Yeah, or 1%. Small
number. It's like 1% of the
entire federal budget is GEOSS.
Yeah. And on dialysis in the
United States. There's a Yeah,
it most people don't realize
that, but it is. It's big
business. You know, honestly,
one of my co worker nurses that
we worked with, when I was still
full time, I was, you know, we
literally toyed in getting into
decentralized access services
for those kinds of chronic care
bundles. So the dialysis chronic
venous access, current, you
know, all of that stuff. And
it's, we did a deep dive on, you
know, market opportunity. And it
is, it's astounding, and this
was back in like, 2014 2015.
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Um, I
think if people had any idea,
they would, they would think a
little bit harder before they
went through the drive thru at
McDonald's.
Drive Thru McDonald's isn't that
bad? Sometimes, but I do think
that I look, the food is house
theme overall, is moving
forward. Mm hmm. But the the
sort of trek to get to the next
level is not unlike any new
technology. I mean, if you go
back to 1990 to 1993, when we
all of a sudden we're talking
about the internet. Nobody knew
how to use Netscape. I don't
even know that many people don't
even know, it is even the reason
why, you know, people don't
understand what chat GPT is. And
yeah, when they start getting an
explained to him a few times, so
they start understanding and
they're like, well, that's the
way I feel the way that we're in
a phase where I would say that
there have been people working
hard on this for, you know, when
we had the internet came
forward, people have been
working hard on it for 20 years,
but nobody knew about it. We
were working with AI on some of
the stuff we were doing like
four years ago before anybody
knew what opening and I was. So.
So I would say that the food is
healthy for people out there
working on this issue, you're in
that crowd that knew about open
AI before open AI happened. Now
that is to start helping the
other people in the system.
Realize that other people in the
system can range from talking to
the CEO of a grocery chain and
saying that this is possible. We
see, traditionalists that work
for the CPGs are trying to
figure out how to coach their
CEO to understand how to make
business decisions around
nutrition that you know that if
you're a CPG, you're thinking
about value engineering the
product or not thinking about
boosting, they are getting the
Omega threes and Omega sixes and
balance. If you're right, if
you're caring for your doctor,
and you don't really spend any
time really on nutrition, you
just spend the time on your
getting some exposure through
those and pick out pressure to
sort of start thinking about
this. But there's shifts going
on. So the for those people
working on the concept of food
is health, our tribe of people
working on food is health. The
thing you gotta recognize is
that many of the people you
discuss this with don't have a
paradigm. Yeah. Oh, you
understand that?
They don't have context. Yeah,
they don't really have the
context to understand the why,
you know, what is this going to
do? For me, it's like the early
adoption curve in the internet.
There were people who
immediately made that
connection, where they're like,
oh, this can impact me in this
way. And that's why I'm going to
be an early adopter, where I
think, you know, in the food as
medicine paradigm shift, and
rethinking what how we value
food. Um, you know, it again,
it's the early adopter curve,
and making people understand the
bigger why we've had decades of
marketing that have been like,
hey, it's the fourth meal. And
it's all about crave appeal and
fast convenience, like all the
value propositions we assigned
to food in the modern era, need
to be actually rethought and re
marketed. And that's a billion
dollar problem that none of us
little people are gonna solve,
like out here, you know, doing
our thing. We really need to get
some like larger, influential
bodies out there that are like
trying to reconnect to the way
we're thinking about our
relationship with food.
Yeah. And so one other thing to
pay attention to, if you geek
out on on innovation and
technology, this notion of
latent demand. And so an example
of latent demand is there are a
whole bunch of people that
wanted to have mobile phone apps
out there before the phone was
introduced. They just didn't
know to call it that. Yeah,
there was latent demand and the
unmet latent demand out there.
And so if you go CPG and say
people want to be healthier,
they know they want to have they
want to buy junk food, they keep
buying junk food. Well, that's
sort of like, do we beat Truman,
I mean, they, they threw him in,
they call everybody on a phone
and said, who you vote for?
Well, they didn't interview the
people that didn't have phones.
And so they they met on the
election. And if you start
looking at the data, I on social
listening data, for example, you
find out that there are a lot of
people sharing recipes that
really get around healthy food
and and conversation, it's
outside the scope of what's
going on. And when you look at
demographic data, you find that
whether somebody's rich or poor,
or they're trying in the grocery
store to find healthier
solutions, that I put that on
the latent demand column, that
there are people no matter where
interesting thought nomic level
would prefer to make food
decisions that don't kill them.
Yeah. And, and to some degree,
when somebody says, Well, I
don't think the demand is there.
But then the question is, as
well as the demand not there, or
is it so hard? People are worn
out trying? Yeah, evolutionarily
are we are programmed to seek
better nutrition. And, and our
bodies know when it's had too
much sugar. But the way in which
we deliver it now is so
effective, that your body's
really can't compensate for it.
Yeah. Addiction pathway in its
own right, man for
the demand for healthier food is
there and I think that we just
got to build that bridge. And
And if somebody says, Well, I
don't think consumers want to be
like this. And the question
should be, how do you know? I
mean, are you the guy that said,
I don't think they need an
iPhone? Or are you the person
that the pet rap was offended?
You? Yeah, they're the people
that were like this digital
camera thing. It no one's ever
going to do it, they're never
going to move away from film.
You know, it's it's just that
mindset, but you know, honestly,
one of the things that I think
about a lot in food trends and
eating trends, right now, it's
the fact that I have two
teenagers and a teenager and
they, you know, they're kind of
riding that wave of the search,
the social contagion, that is,
like really common amongst
teenagers, even here in northern
Idaho, they still have tick
tock, and they have the same
tick tock that every kid does,
whether they're in downtown
Baltimore, or downtown LA, or
downtown Shanghai, like, you
know, it's like, that's what's
so fascinating. And kids these
days are craving bold flavors
they want speaking of teenagers
that are they go, they want
flavor. And you wonder what is
driving this craving for more
diverse molecules in their mouth
that have strong flavors. And
you know, my daughter, and I,
she's 17. She's an interesting
child, having been raised in our
household and going along to a
million business functions a
year. And it gets her brain
thinking of really fascinating
ways. And so she looks at her
cohort, and she's like, Mom, I
wonder if they're craving
micronutrients? I mean, I wonder
if they're, they're
understanding that their body is
malnourished, and they're
craving bolder flavors, because
in nature, you'd be going to
find things that had more bitter
compounds and have more mineral
flavors like your body, if
you're an animal in your nature
is going to drive you to go find
the things that are going to
provide those minerals or
provide those phytonutrients.
Yes, I mean, maybe thinking
about it, you put yourself back
100,000 years, and you say, we
have this thing going around,
and the brain itself, and it
called the human and the humans
gotta go around, well, we better
program them to be able to
figure out what they should eat,
and what they should eat, or the
things that taste good. When you
look at scientifically is
nutritional density and taste
are positively correlated. Yes,
and yield actually negatively
correlated. So we've done a
whole increase yield for various
reasons, wasn't wrong, but then
we find tasty, nutritious
externalities. You go and look
at the GLP. One work and those
Empik work is buried in that
conversation is is that you, you
really are changing you. People
who are who are susceptible to
the overweight trigger, also
have sort of a hypersensitivity
reaction to things like sugar.
And what I get started doing is
it sort of pulling you back from
that edge. And what they're
starting to see is that your
overall calorie consumption goes
down by 25%. Your processed food
consumption goes down by 45.
basis. Yeah, your brain wants to
seek a nutritional density. It's
not like round. Yeah. But you're
seeing a huge shift towards
nutritional density. And that
really, you're just turning back
to evolutionary perspective and
it takes us about 40,000 years
to change our evolution. In our
diet, evolutionarily, and we
really only this content of
sugar available to us in the
last 150 years. Yeah, so our
body, our bodies are your
daughters react to the fact that
your your body is still
programmed, basically off the
availability of the food system
from 40,000 years ago. Yeah.
And it's like a collision course
between like evolutionary, you
know, like epigenetics and then
this modern synthetic overlay
that has come in and kind of
hijacked a lot of our drive
mechanisms and in a really
detrimental way. And, you know,
this farm conference that we
were at Monday and Tuesday, my,
my daughter came with me and you
know, we're sitting there and
we're talking to Ray Archuleta
and Keith mortar, who's a
regenerative farmer in Oregon.
And we were talking about this
very topic because Keith was
telling us about how he had sold
some of his regenerative sorghum
to a sheep farmer. And the sheep
farmer had barley that was
conventional, and then his
regenerative sorghum and the
lambs had gone through, and they
had eaten out all the sorghum,
and left the barley for last.
And so we were talking about
this Dr. And how a lamb um, you
know, these lambs had
specifically their body had told
them that there was something in
that sorghum that was important
for them from a nutritional
standpoint. And he's got some
really incredible labs to
sustain substantiate what he has
going on at a soil level, like
you look at as we speak spec
sheets, and we were gonna send
out the sorghum eventually for
nutrient evaluation, etc, etc.
But like just the we saw it in
an organism, that what the lab
could also quantify, for us, we
saw qualitatively in the
behavior of an animal, which is
so cool, like my mind was blown.
So quarter, we're gonna have to
have you back on a regular
basis, just because there's just
a lot to unpack here. How do we
capture that, and help utilize
that natural intrinsic force
that is in organisms to seek out
things that are better for us,
and put it back into the modern
face systems.
The regenerative system has a
lot of pluses to it, and there's
going to be some shifts in
regenerative AI, the macro
shifts that are going to occur
are growth free, where organic
is really a grower brand, I
think, I think regenerative
might become a retail brand, in
which the grocery chains sort of
catch on through that a little
bit of GLP, one pressure, that
grocery chains will start
saying, you know, what, we want
to deliver nutritional density,
we want to be clear on how we
communicate it to our clients.
So we're gonna do that through
branding, and then we're gonna
put pressure on the supply
system to deliver to this and
we're going to more clearly make
it available as a channel. And I
think that that's a good thing.
Because the shrieking sort of
bring that brand pressure to the
conversation, and we will see is
your daughter and other your
daughter and other people who
want healthier food, are going
to put some new pressure on it,
and and they're going to adopt,
just like when the iPhone was
initially introduced. And then I
think the rest of the system is
sort of a catch on and say, Wait
a second, there are a lot more
people here than we realize, and
start to see that transition.
And the other side, the forces
working to accelerate this that
don't realize it is increasing
cost of health care. It's just
at a breakpoint when again, when
I was giving testimony at the
Senate, it was pretty clear that
every single senator no matter
what side they were on, really
is trying to figure out how to
solve this problem. They're not
they're not 100%. They're not
saying it was like saying that
there needs to be this answer or
that answer, depending on
political party. It really is.
I've got a family member who's
got diabetes, it's not working
out, I realized that this is
hard. And so it's a small thing
that they have to live with. And
so I think we're, we're moving
around, it's an exciting point
in time in history to be working
on this.
I agree. 100% It's literally
what drives people like us to
get up every day and work. What
seems to be insane, long hours,
but you know, somebody asked me
the other day, they were
challenging me a little bit on
it. And I said, Look, if if, if
somebody told me I had a year to
live, which just happened and
one of my very closest friends,
you know, you'd stop working.
And I'm like, No, actually, I
think I'd even work harder.
Because I love what I do. And I
feel like it's this is like the
future and we're leaving a
legacy for the next generation
with this work. So, Carter, I
know people are going to want to
find more about you after
hearing this. If they're not
familiar with their work. I bet
they're gonna want to hear more.
How can people reach out to you
and hear more about your thought
leadership and what you're
doing, etc, etc. Where should
they find you?
Both. I pretty active on
LinkedIn. Every one day on
LinkedIn, I public So lesson
learned less, which I recommend
you take a look at. It's like
what we've done over the week.
And it's great. So thank you.
Associated with that. I have a
sub stack that I normally post
with that called Creative
Destruction, the creative
destruction, not substack. But
we try to publish things. And
you can probably find from those
two sources, LinkedIn, if you
get to me on LinkedIn, you'll
get find it. Great.
Okay, well, we'll make sure that
we put your LinkedIn linked in
there and the sub stack, and
that way people can find and
participate. And, you know, we
can create a critical mass
around these topics, which are
so important. So, Carter, we'll
make sure to have you back on
again, so we can keep up with
your work. Maybe we should have
Aaron join us as well. I've been
trying to get her back on the
season to maybe we'll do it all
together. So thank you for
taking the time. I really
appreciate it. And I'm just
really excited for what's
coming. Thanks for your hard
work.
You're welcome. Thank you.
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