Episode 3. Sarah Hepburn
Sarah Hepburn: [00:00:00] So I used to not push myself to the point where I could fail. I would get myself so far and then bail out and say, that didn't work right. When really if I just pushed myself a little bit further, I might have succeeded and I might have failed. Mm-hmm. And what I've come to understand about the idea of failure now and what I coach people on and talk to people about is that failure is merely a data point in life.
Sarah Hepburn: It's a sort of a, like a, an information point that says, okay, so that might not have worked out how I thought it was going to work out, right. But this is what I learned about that particular experience. And sometimes there's like weird hidden, um, you know, silver linings or whatever you want to call it.
Sarah Hepburn: Sure. Where unexpected things happen out of failure. That you could never have anticipated. Mm-hmm. And
Erik Hardy: that is my friend Sarah Hepburn, and I'm excited to have her on this [00:01:00] episode of The Being School Podcast. In this episode, we discuss her new book Walking Forward that was released just a few months ago.
Erik Hardy: And that book is about using the power of habit, both consciously and unconsciously to navigate the chaos and uncertain times as you move towards the world you want to be in. Besides the book, we talk about journaling, competitive, synchronized swimming, writing groups, the self-publishing process, success and failure and fear, and so much more.
Erik Hardy: So sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation with Sarah Hepburn. You got it. I got it now I got it. We're gonna do this. Okay. So, awesome. Thank you so much for taking some time to be here today. I really appreciate it. Um, I'm super excited. Good. Good. Well, I'll tell you where I kind of wanted to start with things is to just talk a little bit about your background in terms of kind of where you grew up and your family [00:02:00] and wherever you want to go with that in terms of kind of the zero to college background, let's say, and then kind of go from there.
Erik Hardy: For sure.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, so I grew up, um, pretty much, I grew up in the Toronto area, so in, in Canada, in southern, Southern Ontario I guess is probably the best way to put it. Mm-hmm. But mostly in the Toronto area, so pretty uh, urban city kid growing up and uh, you know, it's um, interesting cuz I live nowhere near, I'm more suburbia now where I live.
Sarah Hepburn: And so I grew up things like taking the subway to school and um, that was kind of my frame of reference. You kind of walked everywhere and. Rode the subway and cars were, you know, it was nice to be able to drive, but it wasn't like it was more of a pain in the butt than anything. Um, right. So I, um, my parents still live in the house where I spent the majority of my childhood in Toronto [00:03:00] and I have two younger sisters and I was a competitive synchronized swimmer for most of my teenage, teenage years.
Sarah Hepburn: I stopped when I was 18, so that occupied a lot of my time in, in, uh, certainly in high school and I guess middle school as well. Mm-hmm. So by the end of high school I was, you know, training, you know, anywhere from six to eight times a week depending on what the week looked like. Yeah. That's
Erik Hardy: a big commitment, especially at that age.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, it was a huge commitment and I loved it cuz like my friends were my, my teammates and mm-hmm. That was my, you know, my big social life and. Um, you know, I really thrived in the, the structured environment of, of the pool and, you know, the mix of early mornings, some evening sessions. Mm-hmm. Um, it, uh, I had the opportunity to travel.
Sarah Hepburn: I know a lot of different pools across Canada, which is kind of an amusing a lot
Erik Hardy: life side. I'm [00:04:00] using side
Sarah Hepburn: note, a bunch of, I can, I can picture what the swimming pool looks like in, I don't know, Calgary or Vancouver, and even in a lot of smaller communities in Ontario as well. So there's, I know which ones have like, you know, they're deep the whole way through, and which ones, we had to modify some of our routines because the pool was shallower in sections.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, bizarre facts that periodically come back to me even now, which is kind of amusing.
Erik Hardy: Well, and that's not something as, as like a childhood sport. I mean, you don't hear a lot of, uh, synchronized swimmers. No. Yeah, that's, So how did you, how did you get interested
Sarah Hepburn: in that? Yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a good question.
Sarah Hepburn: So I, um, was always, well, I guess one of the reasons was I was an asthmatic growing up and my mom discovered that swimming was really good for me. Um, the idea of the breath control that comes with learning your swimming strokes and diving in and outta the [00:05:00] water, and I loved it. So she would just keep putting me in swimming lesson after swimming lesson after swimming lesson.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, and as a result, I blasted through all my, all my levels really quickly. Okay. And I had gotten to the point where I was too young to do any of the lifeguarding qualifications mm-hmm. For swimming. So she put me in a learned, uh, a beginner synchronized swimming program. Okay. And it just kind of went
Erik Hardy: from there.
Erik Hardy: That more from there. So then where did your, now we kind of met through. Uh, nature and being outdoors in a sense. So I've always seen like the love of nature side of you where mm-hmm. And you talk about that in your writing and in your book walking Forward, um, which we'll obviously get to. But where do you, where does your love of nature come from then as if you grew up as a city kid?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, so I grew up as a city kid, but I also grew up going to summer cottages. Mm-hmm. Um, which is like, I guess growing up in the Toronto area, they were always called [00:06:00] cottages in, you know, different parts of Canada and I suppose in the US as well, some place people called them cabins or camps or country homes or Okay.
Sarah Hepburn: Whatever. Um, but very much where I grew up, summers are short because of the Four Seasons uhhuh and everyone kind of tries to spend as much time by the lakes and by the water as possible. So until I was probably 16, we used to spend a ton of time at my aunt's cottage. Okay. And, uh, I had cousins similar in age, and so we would go up there for longer stretches at the time.
Sarah Hepburn: And my mom often had my sisters and I and my cousins, and then whoever was working would appear on weekends of the other adults. And so we had a grand old time, you know, and especially on hot days, there's nothing better, there's no better place to be than by the water and jumping in and out of a lake and Right.
Sarah Hepburn: Exactly. And all that. So I didn't really [00:07:00] appreciate it until later in life, just how much I loved spending that time outdoors. Um, and going to things like sleepover, summer camp. Mm-hmm. Um, and learning how to paddle a canoe and sail a boat and do all those things. Um, right. But that, I would say that was probably like those formative cottage years.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, really kind of set the ground, the ground
Erik Hardy: for it. Okay. And, and then, And then in terms of, obviously you have a passion for and a love of writing. Where, when, in your kind of progression, when did that really start for you?
Sarah Hepburn: So I've always written, um, I can remember actually, I think my first officially published thing, uh, piece was a poem called Acorns.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, and I might have been, I think I was probably eight or nine when that was published. I still have the, the book. It was just a like a school publication. Right. But I was so, I was so proud [00:08:00] that my poem that I'd written for whatever class had made it in. Um, but I've always been like a keeper of, of notes and writing letters to people and, um, journals, Uhhuh and all those things.
Sarah Hepburn: All my life. Um, they used to be, I can remember they used to be those like journals that had, you know, the lock on it. Mm-hmm. Um, Exactly where it would be like you'd block everything in. Um, at times I had like the fluffy pencils to write on. Um, my journal style has certainly changed over the years, but that's really, so it's always been something that I've always done is I've always written because it's always been a way for me to help think and process.
Sarah Hepburn: Process my
Erik Hardy: thoughts. So you don't still use the lock in the fluffy pencils, the No. It's not still your writing style?
Sarah Hepburn: No, it's still my writing style. It's more of a mechanical pencil in a sketchbook type style currently. Although I've used various like moleskin [00:09:00] notebooks over the years too, so it's,
Erik Hardy: yeah.
Erik Hardy: Okay. Well, so this, and this gets a little bit into the weeds, but I'm always curious, especially with writers. So are you aligned and or unlined kind of paper journaling person and um, where do you think that originates or what's kind of your thought process behind which one you use? I
Sarah Hepburn: use blank pages.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay. Um, and. There's, if I flip back through all like various ones, and even, I'm like even talking as recently as like last month for example. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I do write, you know, in like with the book in a portrait layout and I'll write line by line. Okay. Other times I'll flip it and I'll write landscape.
Sarah Hepburn: Sometimes I'll create columns and I'll flip through writing columns. There's been times when I write just on an angle in the book Uhhuh or a sketch or doodle, I'm, I'm not a particularly talented like artist in terms of like sketching, um Right. But I'll [00:10:00] noodle around notes and play with letters and do stuff like that as a way to, um, occupy things.
Sarah Hepburn: So it's really, I like the blank pages because it affords me the freedom not to be constrained by how the book wants me to write.
Erik Hardy: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's sup, that's actually really fascinating. Do so. Kind of delving into that just a little bit more. So do you, do you just find the blank page kind of frees you up more in terms of your creativity and your thought process?
Erik Hardy: And so it definitely does. And then how much do you switch between, let's say, you know, sketching or doodling and, and writing on a daily
Sarah Hepburn: basis? Yeah, I would say like probably 90% of it is writing. Mm-hmm. Um, what's interesting to me though is I have, if I look back, so for example, I actually just went back to one of my journals, um, from 1998 and I can't, I was surprised I still had it lying around.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, but it was, I was trying to find, [00:11:00] um, one of my sons is doing this trip right now and so I was trying to go back to when I had been there. He's in Australia and I was trying to go back to a few of the places, Uhhuh, because I realized that one of the hostiles he stayed at is where I was. In 1998 or 1997, I guess.
Sarah Hepburn: That's crazy. It was so crazy.
Erik Hardy: Was it planned or is it like totally random that this happened?
Sarah Hepburn: Totally random. It just happened to be the one that he booked himself into. And then he, uh, I said, well, where are you staying now? And he's like, oh, it's there. I was like, what? And so I immediately texted my sister, who I'd been on the trip with, and she's like, oh yeah, that's where we stayed.
Sarah Hepburn: And I, so anyway, at that point I found my journal and it has, like, I had taken such detailed trip notes right down to how much bus far was, um, what I ate for dinner. My, I mean, my Lord, like, I don't even know what I was thinking. It was so fascinating to see what was, how my brain worked. Mm-hmm. Um, at that point.
Sarah Hepburn: But what was so interesting is even throughout the course of the pages, my handwriting is very different. [00:12:00] And the same is true now. And it's almost, I don't know if it's like how I'm feeling if I'm, I haven't quite done like a di a deep dive into why. My handwriting looks so different at different, at different points.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, but even like the current notebook I'm working with now, I think is from about the last week in April is when I started it. Okay. And it's, it changes like almost every time. I was going back through some notes this morning and I was like, Hmm, yeah,
Erik Hardy: that's how I doing that day when I wrote that. I, I find sometimes I'll switch between, you know, cursive and printing.
Erik Hardy: You know, I'll go back and forth in that sense. And yeah, it's not something I've thought about, but now that you mentioned that, I think, I think writing, especially if you're a hand writer, and I think that's one of, of the beauties of handwriting versus, you know, typing into a computer, is that, yeah. I don't know.
Erik Hardy: There's, there's a richness there that you would never capture, um, just by looking [00:13:00] at, you know, keystrokes or, or the, the words on a digital screen versus what you've done in your journal.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. Like it's really, I find my handwriting is almost like a picture to me. It tells, it somehow tells a story. Right.
Sarah Hepburn: Beyond the words written on the page.
Erik Hardy: Right. Well, I do want to, I do want to jump into your book a bit, but so, so we left off com you were a competitive swimmer in high school. And then I think what was fascinating to me after, after reading your book was understanding a little bit about kind of the switch that happened, I think for you in college between, let's say your first year-ish or i, I can't remember the exact timeframe of when you actually met the man that turned out to be your husband, but kind of before meeting him and his group of friends and, and after.
Erik Hardy: So I'd love to dig into that a little bit if you're up
Sarah Hepburn: for it. Yeah, for sure. So I stopped swimming, um, just as I was about to start, um, university. Mm-hmm. And [00:14:00] um, when I got there, I lived in residence and it was like this wide open world to me that I felt like I'd never experienced before. There was no.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, there weren't any expectations as far as coaches or teachers or parents. Um, I didn't have teammates to be accountable to. Right. Um, my roommate was never there, so she really didn't care if I was around. So it was gr like, I mean at first I was like, this is great. I'm like a kid in a candy shop. I'm just gonna stay out as late as I want, eat whatever I want.
Sarah Hepburn: Maybe go to class sometimes. Um, and it was a pretty rude awakening of that. You know, you can do that for a short period of time. Um, but it's certainly not sustainable and it's certainly not going to contribute to you performing particularly well academically
Erik Hardy: either. Exactly, yes. Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think we've all been there
Sarah Hepburn: for sure.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. And it was like, it was a [00:15:00] giant, kind of a giant wake up call of like, you know, what are you, like, what are you doing? Type idea. And the pattern really continued. Until I started to, um, until I actually ended up started dating, who's now my husband. Um, and he was really serious about school and he was a good student and he worked really hard.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, and he had a group around him that they would study and work together, and I started hanging out with them a little bit more. Mm-hmm. Instead of either spinning my r, spinning my wheels in my own place or going to the library and doing nothing, but I don't know, socializing or like reading, whatever, particularly interested me at that moment, which I was really good at finding anything but what I was supposed to be doing.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, and then I started studying with them a little bit and, you know, we were in this environment that was, that's [00:16:00] all anybody else was doing. So it was kind of a little bit of matter of either you study or you don't, or get out. Type environment. Right, right. And so really just being around people that were doing what I wanted to be doing but didn't quite know how to get myself there, um, really made, made all the difference.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. And I didn't fully appreciate it till I started thinking about how when you're around people, that combination of that accountability, but there's almost like this like pull that you can get towards achieving what you want to achieve Right.
Erik Hardy: Along the way. Yeah. Well, and that, that's interesting, which it really does lead me into thinking about it, kind of the process you went through in writing your book.
Erik Hardy: Um mm-hmm. So you worked, and, and we can delve into this, but you worked with a, a group, right? Mm-hmm. You were part of a, a writing group process. So I'd love to hear a bit about kind of that and how that went for you and, and what you thought, um, of that [00:17:00] experience. But then also just as a background question, had you tried or worked on the book.
Erik Hardy: Before starting that process and what kind of, what did that look like? Yeah,
Sarah Hepburn: so it kind of all started, um, it was the, like December-ish of 2019. Mm-hmm. And I, as I do every year, I was, you know, looking back on the year passed and, um, thinking about, you know, what worked and what I wanted to do in the year to come.
Sarah Hepburn: And I was really thinking about writing. And writing was a funny one where I'd always thought about myself as a writer. But then as I started to kind of think about it a little bit more, it was like, if I'm not a, if I'm not actually writing, does that make me a writer? Um, and so it really started where I said, the first six weeks of 2020, I'm gonna sit down every day and write 500 words a day.
Sarah Hepburn: So that was my, my [00:18:00] initial goal. And I made it just a really quiet, very personal objective. Uh huh And, um, it was kind of a bit of a rocky start in that I sat down thinking I would just have this like, wave of in inspiration. And it was right kind of a bust the first few mornings. Right. Um, but once I got going, it really, it was almost like addictive to getting to sitting down every day and writing.
Sarah Hepburn: And I realized it really reminded me of how much I loved it and how much I loved writing and just how little of it I'd been doing in the few years preceding that. Um, so then I started sharing what I called essays on my personal blog. Um, and then fast forward to about the summer of 2021, and I joined this writing accountability group and I thought, I still don't totally know what my book is gonna be about.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. I kind of am. It's, I'm starting to have an idea, like the original idea [00:19:00] of the book was meant to be habits at home. Which was building off my experience in the interior design field. And so I started with this writing accountability group, which I had been someone I knew she had gone through with this group.
Sarah Hepburn: And you know, she'd said to me, she said, Sarah, you know, I know you're wanting to do this. I've read your essay. She said, why don't you start by this? And so it's, we would get together, uh, every other week for two hours. We'd meet on Zoom and um, we would check in with each other at the beginning of the call and then darken our screens and mute our microphones and write for two hours.
Sarah Hepburn: And then we would circle back at the end of the call and everyone would kind of report on, Hey, how this is how it went and this is what we did. Um, and at first I was like, seriously, we're gonna be accountable to people on Zoom. Like you gotta be joking. Right? Right. But there was something about knowing that there were anywhere from like 10 [00:20:00] to 14 other people out there.
Sarah Hepburn: Doing the same thing as you at the same time. And I'd find like sometimes if I got frustrated or if I got distracted, I'd just like go back and look at the darkened screens on Zoom. Like, oh, they're still there, you know, or see. Right. Um, so that really helped propel me forward and kind of by like the fall of 20 20, 20, 20 21, I was really starting to refine and kind of build out my thought process and habits framework, if you will, a little bit more.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, but it really took having other people around me to, to give me the nudge
Erik Hardy: that I needed. Right. And so was it just that group that led to the, the book itself, or did you actually work with like in a formalized writing program where you go from, you know, nothing to completed, published. Book at
Sarah Hepburn: some point.
Sarah Hepburn: Oh, the publisher that I worked with, they were the ones [00:21:00] that ran this writing group. Okay. The publishing process is like a separate thing from the writing group. Okay. Um, so I was able to get kind of feedback within that writing group on various sections of the book, but it wasn't really until I handed in my super messy first vomit draft, as they say.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, that I got some really hardcore editorial feedback Okay. On the writing. Um, I know there's some other writing group writing groups out there that you do a piece and you get immediate feedback and you have a structure in all the rest of it. Mm-hmm. I found the process that I did was a little bit more, um, I don't know what the right word is.
Sarah Hepburn: Fluid. Okay. Um, and that happened to work for me at the time. Um, I don't know that my next book would necessarily be that way. Um, Because I think now I have, I've sort of unlocked what's possible with writing books and how it can go. [00:22:00] Um, right. So just, but I think for that first one, I literally needed to get all the stuff out, like empty the junk drawers they say.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. To be able to know what I wanted to put back in and what wanted to land in the book.
Erik Hardy: Oh, no, that makes complete sense. Well, let's, so let's, let's talk about it. Let's talk about the book. I mean, I mentioned the title walking Forward, but, um, the, yeah, if you have, if you have a, I have you have one here and I have my digital copy that I read.
Erik Hardy: That's awesome. There it is. Using the power of habit to navigate the chaos of life one step at a time. Yeah. I love that picture too. Is that from Scotland?
Sarah Hepburn: It is from Scotland. It was taken, um, hiking the West Highland way last summer.
Erik Hardy: That's awesome. That's fantastic. Yeah. So, uh, someone that's not familiar with your book, what would you, what's kind of what, how would you give it a quick synopsis?
Erik Hardy: What
Sarah Hepburn: would you say? For sure. Yeah. So it's a book, um, about how I've used the power of habit, both consciously and unconsciously throughout my life. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] To navigate, um, chaos and, uh, uncertain times. And it has really been shares how I've learned to use habits strategically to move myself towards things I wanna do or how I wanna be in the world.
Sarah Hepburn: Right, right. Um, I wrote it in such a way that it's not just stories about me, but there's lessons learned that people can take away from each section. Um, and I added these little questions at the end of each section or takeaways, I guess I call them footprints, building on the building,
Erik Hardy: on the walking theme, the walking.
Erik Hardy: I love
Sarah Hepburn: that. But, uh, they're, you know, little questions to consider at the end of each. Section. Mm-hmm. And what's been cool about it since the book came out at the end of March is I've had people saying to me, you know what, Sarah? I sit with my journal and I read a section and then I'll like answer the questions and reflect on them as I go.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, so that's been pretty cool
Erik Hardy: that way. Which [00:24:00] it seems like that was probably exactly how you hope people would digest it.
Sarah Hepburn: It was, yeah. And I was like, this is really neat that people are, it's kind of working how I had envisioned. Um,
Erik Hardy: yeah. Well, well one thing just in reading it, one thing that I really enjoyed is, is you do have a lot of kind of personal, open, honest stories in there that give, give folks a really good, I mean, we learn through story and I think you give folks a really good.
Erik Hardy: Uh, basis for that learning in your own personal journey. And then they can take that, and as you mentioned, you have the f the footprints, which are things that you can kind of take away and learn from. So I mean, I, I loved the way that you brought a lot of personal story into the book and kind of walked people through that process.
Erik Hardy: Mm, thank you.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, it was, I think it was interesting because, you know, the book was written, I don't know, I guess over the course of like a year and a year sort of, or so. Mm-hmm. And I think some of the stories that ended up in there, you know, [00:25:00] as I was going through the editing process, I was like, do I really want this in here?
Sarah Hepburn: There was some, there was some elements of that. But I think, um, you know, certainly some of the work that had been done, um, Through Philip McKernan in Ireland really empowered me to keep that stuff in. Right. Um, so that was, there was that as well.
Erik Hardy: Yeah. And you know, that's a, that's a big topic or a big, um, question I think a lot of writers or creatives have, uh, or anytime you share content online or in the world is, is how personal, how open, how honest to be with what you do put out there.
Erik Hardy: So I think what advice would you have for someone that's kind of thinking, oh, is this story a little too personal? Do I feel comfortable putting this out there? How is this gonna be, be received? Kind of what's your approach to that now since you have your book out in the world and are starting to get some feedback on that?
Erik Hardy: Yeah,
Sarah Hepburn: I think there's, the advice is sort of twofold and one is to start, [00:26:00] um, because the more you think about it, the more you're gonna spin your wheels and the bigger the story you're gonna tell yourself about why you can't do it. Um, so, but when you're starting, it doesn't actually have to be.
Sarah Hepburn: Complicated. It doesn't have to be some massive, massive story. Um, and I think it, you know, you can start with one small piece mm-hmm. To start putting your voice out there. And, you know, in my own personal experience, that's actually what really held me back for the longest time. Um, hundred percent. Yeah.
Sarah Hepburn: Absolutely. Cause I, I really felt like, oh, they have such a better story to tell, or this other person, they've been through this, this, this, and this. Who am I to think that what I have to say matters? Right. Um, and it really like it, it was a real limiting belief that I held on to my, uh, about myself for a really, really, really long time.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, [00:27:00] and it, I really started to disconnect from that belief when I did my six week writing challenge at the start of the start of 2020. Um, and then I was able to look back at what I'd written and say, well, I'm just gonna nudge some of that out there and put it up on a personal blog that I'm not gonna tell anybody about.
Sarah Hepburn: So technically it's in public, but nobody knows. Right, right, right.
Erik Hardy: Absolutely. Um,
Sarah Hepburn: and but what I found is because I'd been building the, the muscle, so to speak, the writing muscle, and had sort of started to find my voice and figure out how I wanted to talk and what I wanted to share or what I was, you know, okay doing right.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, by the time I actually told people what I was doing, it was yes, it was scary. And yes, I was so terrified that there'd be so much judgment of like, what does she, what is she even doing? Mm-hmm. Um, [00:28:00] but I came to realize is that even if there was just one person who read something in what I put out there and it.
Sarah Hepburn: They felt either, you know, helped or, um, seen or not so alone. Um, then that was, then I had made a difference with my work.
Erik Hardy: No, that's wonderful. And, and I, I mean, we, we've talking about it in the context of, of writing, but obviously there's, there's other ways to do that, whether you're a musician, if you're starting to record some YouTube videos, whatever it may be.
Erik Hardy: I mean, there's numerous platforms where you can post something to, so it's quote unquote public, and yet if it's not publicized, no one's gonna kind of stumble across it or find it unless it's there. So, I mean, I think that's a really good piece of advice. It's just putting it out there somewhere, and it's not like you have to immediately go out and tell the world and splash it on your social.
Erik Hardy: It can just kind of reside out there and, mm-hmm. And you know, it's there and it's a start. So that's,
Sarah Hepburn: yeah. Yeah. [00:29:00] So it's the, it's just the starting getting started and starting to get comfortable with. Expressing yourself creatively, however that might be. If it's sharing your pictures, if it's sharing, you know, a video, if it's playing your guitar on YouTube, right.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, the, the world needs more people to share. So
Erik Hardy: you're, I mean, you're essentially, let's what you say, you started putting your blog out and you said roughly 2020. Is that when you first kinda started
Sarah Hepburn: putting Yeah, I put my very first, yeah. My very first essay, things I learned in six weeks of writing such an original title, uh, was published at the start of March of
Erik Hardy: 2020.
Erik Hardy: Okay. So basically three years, a little over three years right now. Where, where in that amount of time, where do you think your comfort level is now? Like how much ha how big a shift have you felt and how comfortable you feel kind of being in the public sphere now? I'm pretty comfortable
Sarah Hepburn: with it. Like it's, um, it's taken a, it's taken a while.
Sarah Hepburn: I had like this absolute [00:30:00] terrified moment probably about. A month or six weeks before Walking Forward was published of, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe this is just too, um, too much. And I don't wanna, I don't want this out in the world. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna pull the plug. Right. Um, but it's, I found that, so it, there were like various sort of points.
Sarah Hepburn: There was the quietly starting publishing my essays, then there was telling them, telling people about them. Um, and I kind of, for a period in that middle period there kind of went dark a little bit because I wasn't totally sure. I felt like I should be saying something. Um, but it's not, but it just didn't feel, it just didn't feel aligned.
Sarah Hepburn: Like I started, there was a moment there for a while when I started writing for what I thought other people wanted to hear. Mm-hmm. Uh, versus what I. Had to say Absolutely. Um, and [00:31:00] what was meaningful to me and it, it was at that point like that, that was a real sort of like, Hmm, no, this isn't working anymore.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. And I'd say about like last September of 2022, when I started, um, consistently sending out my Friday letter that I sent to my subscribers. And I was really working hard on, you know, getting the book firmed up. Um, right. That's where it just became like, oh, I'm just gonna say what I want because this is what's on my heart this
Erik Hardy: week.
Erik Hardy: Mm-hmm. Right. So, I mean, let's speak to that just a moment. Uh, you kind of mentioned, um, if you have anything to some phrases, you know, if you have anything to say, like, how do you know if you have anything to say? How do you know if people are gonna really either resonate with that pay attention care?
Erik Hardy: Like what advice would you give to someone that's like, I've been journaling for a while, or I've been. Singing some songs I've been doing whatever, and they have that fear of what, do I really have anything to say? Or kind of what's the point of putting it out there? Like [00:32:00] how would you encourage them or what would you say to them to make them realize that they do have something to say?
Erik Hardy: Mm-hmm. Or that maybe they're, that they don't have anything to say. You know, let's look at both sides of the coin. Yeah.
Sarah Hepburn: I mean, I think, I think for me, the bottom line is everybody has something to contribute mm-hmm. In some way. And I think a lot of people spend time hiding behind, um, their discomfort at expressing themselves creatively.
Sarah Hepburn: Even pe people who say, oh, I'm not a creative person. I'm like, actually you are. Like, everybody is in some way, shape, or form. Right. And for me, it's, it, or the way I see it is that it's a, a practice of creation and of creating and. The more you do it and the more you are accountable in some way, shape, or form.
Sarah Hepburn: So if it is to your social media feed, if it is just to yourself saying, I'm going to [00:33:00] post X number of words per week, or one song a week to YouTube or whatever. Mm-hmm. There's some level of accountability that it's not just hiding in a drawer in your desk. Right. Um, and the more you do that, the more you build momentum.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. And you know, it's the old, and I'm probably gonna like completely muck up and you can correct me on this one, the, like the physics side of thing. Right. But like, energy, energy really breeds energy. So the more you, the more energy you put into something, the more momentum and energy you're gonna get from it.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, and I find that's very true with any kind of creative craft that you're working on.
Erik Hardy: Right. Um, along those lines, talk a little bit about, obviously some days in writing, occasionally you just, you know, feel like home runs, feel like I'm what's coming out of me feels fantastic. And, and those days are easy.
Erik Hardy: But talk a little bit about in the creative [00:34:00] process when maybe some of the other days, like the days that just, that just feel like kind of junk or you're like, what did I, am I in my kindergarten here? Like, how long have I been trying to write? Like, what's your thought process around those and how they fit into your whole creative process?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. So it's a little bit, I kind of like to have a little bit of structure to my creative process. Mm-hmm. But at the same time allow for like, kind of like what I was describing with my journal. I like the blank page. I like to be able to write sideways, up and down and all over the place. But I also like to have an idea of what I'm intending to do at that particular session.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay. And, um, So to like, to sort of explain that a little bit further, what it looks like specifically for me is to have a list of topics that I want to
Erik Hardy: explore. I can't believe you'd have a list. Sarah. [00:35:00] I like
Sarah Hepburn: my list. The uh, um, and it's a topic like, and it's a running list. It's not always in a particularly organized fashion.
Sarah Hepburn: Um mm-hmm. Like nine times outta 10, it's a series of sticky notes that I've jammed in 5,000 different places. Right. Um, but on the mornings, so there's sort of two parts of that. On the mornings when I really, really don't wanna do anything uhhuh, um, I have at least a starting point and that helps to a point.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, but then there's like the days when just absolutely nothing happens and it's like junk. And I. Sit and stare at the world, and I find every reason under the sun not to do what I wanna do. Right. Um, and it's kind of on those days where I'm just like, well, that, that didn't work out like I thought. Right.
Sarah Hepburn: And tomorrow's new day, so I'm gonna start fresh tomorrow.
Erik Hardy: And are your write is your creative or writing process? Do you do kind of like a [00:36:00] morning pages style separate from Okay, now I'm doing book writing? Or is writing kind of all one, all one thing? What does that look like?
Sarah Hepburn: Um, the book writing process was interesting because I found I got so headfirst into it, I kind of set other things aside.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. Like it was all I could, all I could think about. Right. Um, it's actually been a bit liberating having the book published now because I can do more of a morning pages type approach to things. Mm-hmm. Um, But then there's just topics and it's, you know, it's kind of what I was speaking to earlier, that once you start, you know, you start to get more ideas as you go, right?
Sarah Hepburn: And so there's a ton of like, ideas that I have about topics I wanna explore and things I wanna write more on. Um, so it's kind of, that's been really, you mean, for the past couple months anyway, has been really good. But it took me a while to [00:37:00] start really getting back into that space
Erik Hardy: again. Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Erik Hardy: I think is a, how do you capture this idea? What, what, what's interesting to me is sometimes I'll be, you know, writing or doing something and an idea for something I want to write on. Mm-hmm. Or something pops up. Do you, do you keep a list of those somewhere separately and just kind of a running list and so that you can capture it and then go back to what you're writing?
Erik Hardy: Or, or if something strikes you, do you just dive into it? No, I'll,
Sarah Hepburn: I'll set it aside. Um, okay. You know, I used to, I guess it was one thing that I learned back in my corporate days, we used to call it a parking lot in meetings. Okay. You know, we'll just, we'll just park that idea. And so I still, I love that idea.
Sarah Hepburn: I kinda use, I kind of use that like, you know, approach with my, like millions of like sticky notes that I have lying around. Mm-hmm. And I'll just, I usually have one at easy to reach and I'll scribble whatever the idea is on it, and then figure out if it's something I wanna actually come back to before it derails me too much.[00:38:00]
Erik Hardy: Yeah. I think that's the, that's definitely one of the first, like, rule number one is capture the idea. Right? Because I, I, it's so funny, I, I wonder how many amazing books or amazing ideas or whatnot have been lost over time because you just didn't have the pen and paper, or you didn't have the voice memo, or you didn't have the, the way to capture it.
Erik Hardy: So, yeah.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. Like, and if I'm out, if I'm out walking, um, it, I'll use like voice memos on my phone. Okay. We remind myself of something and, um, Or just even, I've just, even, I've actually talked whole essays on, walks into my phone before. Really. Um, it just feels sometimes how much.
Erik Hardy: Yeah. I'm always curious about that, how much editing.
Erik Hardy: So you do something like that. Let's say you capture a voice memo, and I know actually people, they say one way to write a book or to write anything is actually if you're, if you don't enjoy sitting down in front of the blank page, just to kind of dictate it into a, you know, into your phone and then transcribe it and, and do it [00:39:00] that way.
Erik Hardy: I'm, I'm always curious, like, when you have done that, how kind of much editing in the, on the backend ha does that take you or you capture it pretty, pretty solidly? No, it needs a
Sarah Hepburn: lot of editing on the backend. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I mean, I'll even, I was using a, um, oter, the voice note app. Mm-hmm. Oer cause you could transcribe things.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. But it got frustrated cuz I didn't like how it transcribed what I was trying to say. Sure. So now I just need the good old voice memos on the iPhone to do it. Right. So it, it actually, and then I'll. Um, listen to it and key it in as I'm, as I'm thinking. And so that actually helps to really sort of clarify what I was trying to, got
Erik Hardy: it.
Erik Hardy: What I was trying to say. I love that. Mm-hmm. No, those are great tips. Um, alright, I got a couple things here, so I wanna, so, so we kind of talked about the transition you made, you met your husband mm-hmm. Soon. Future husband. Now husband in college. And that was kind of a shift for you because of the people that you were [00:40:00] kind of hanging around.
Erik Hardy: So graduated college, I, I know, um, kind of when I met you, your primary business at that point was interior design. Yeah. Um, what, so coming out of college, was that your, was that your full progression or, or kind of, where did things go post
Sarah Hepburn: college? I kind of, I kind of jumped around a lot. Um, at, as I was finishing up my degree, I was starting to get super anxious about.
Sarah Hepburn: What I was gonna do and I didn't have a job and mm-hmm. On and on and on and on. Um, so I had gotten a phone call from a company that I'd worked with between my third, my, my or just before my last year of university. And they said, you know what? We've got somebody going on maternity leave and we, we need somebody to cover the position.
Sarah Hepburn: Are you available? And I was like, yes, I am. Nice. So I kind of took it because it was a job, not because it was anything I particularly wanted to do. [00:41:00] Mm-hmm. Um, and really, and that was sort of the story of my professional career for a long time. I would kind of be like, okay, so this is good. Maybe I wanna try something else.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay, so that didn't work out, so let's try something else. And it, um, I kind of, I just sort of jumped around a lot and I was really good at finding excuses why something didn't, didn't work. Right. Um, And I didn't, for like the longest time, I thought that somehow I had failed at my career. Um, because it didn't follow the example that I knew growing up, which was, you graduate school and you get a job and that's your life.
Erik Hardy: Right?
Sarah Hepburn: Absolutely. And you know, I'm certainly now of the mindset of, you know, everyone has multiple careers in them and it doesn't matter at what age you're at, there's always possibility to, um, to try something new and [00:42:00] to, to shift and pivot. So
Erik Hardy: how does that, you have, let's see, two sons in college and one about to go?
Erik Hardy: Is that No, I've got not
Sarah Hepburn: all three. I've got, um, three boys. Okay. So one just is just finishing his, um, grade nine or freshman year of high school. Okay. And one just finished his first year of university and his. Quinn brother took a gap year between high school and university. Right.
Erik Hardy: So how does your experience, this is fascinating, especially, I mean, it's a very different age from just when you and I were in mm-hmm.
Erik Hardy: In university to, you know, what it is now. How does your experience kind of inform what you're maybe guiding or, or letting your own boys do or kind of the window that you're giving them? And what advice would you have for, you know, other parents, other folks that, that are that similar, similar kind of precipice at the moment?
Erik Hardy: Yeah,
Sarah Hepburn: it was, um, really interesting. So I guess the biggest one is that I was, I really encouraged my [00:43:00] kids to take gap years. Um, okay. One did and one didn't, and that was just their, you know, their decision. Mm-hmm. Um, and I had a number of people say to me when my son decided to defer, um, school, they said, well, aren't you worried he's not gonna go back?
Sarah Hepburn: Well, aren't you worried that like, this'll happen and aren't you worried about this? And aren't you worried about that? And that thought probably, I would say like even five years ago would've been top of mind, right? What if he doesn't do this? What if he is living in my house, the whole for the rest of his life?
Sarah Hepburn: What if he's doing this? Um, and it, he was so, he needed the break from school so badly, um, that, and he was so excited for what he was, you know, the potential for what the year ahead held for him. Um, I didn't really, I stopped worrying about it because I was able to focus not on what my worries [00:44:00] were or what.
Sarah Hepburn: Or fears I guess. And it really helped me just see the, see him for the kid that he is. Um, and it actually even got me comfortable with like, well, if he doesn't go to school or if he doesn't do this, he'll figure it out. Cuz he is a pretty, he's a kid who can figure stuff out. Sure. And it just, it really helped me letting go of that fear of his journey might not be, might not look what my, like mine was.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, made a big difference. Yeah. No, that's great. It was kind of having to let go of other people's opinions and expectations along the way
Erik Hardy: as well. How, how much of that do you think as a parent is how you almost parent from zero until they're out of the house? Like. If you've, I even hate to use this expression, but if, if you've kind of done your job as a parent or if you've [00:45:00] parented, then you know, by the time they get to that age, they should, you should feel pretty comfortable that, you know, they're gonna go out, they're gonna do exploring.
Erik Hardy: All of us have made decisions in hindsight and we're like, oh, that probably wasn't a great choice, but we've learned from it in theory. So how much of it do you think is like laying that groundwork ahead of time and just, and just letting them have their life versus, um, I don't know. I guess the flip side would be kind of being, trying to be a little more controlling on the back end and make sure that they don't kind of follow the unconventional path.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, I mean, I liken it a little bit to like a safety net. So when the kids were really little, like if, if they were here, the safety net was super close and I love that as they've gotten older, it's a little bit more of dropping that safety net. Lower and lower. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, even now that they're 18, turning 19, [00:46:00] they're, the safety net's still there.
Sarah Hepburn: It's just lower than it used to be. Right. Um, and it's been a bit of an evolution where the role has now shifted where I am merely there as a advisor to them and not, I have very limited influence in terms of telling them what to do. Right. Um, and I think it's sort of been like an interesting, you know, interesting shift.
Sarah Hepburn: Like in a very recent example is, um, my one 18 year old who's ho, like he's home for university for summer right now. Um, he had, you know, he had some health stuff going on that he needed to get looked at. And the walk-in clinic he went to, said, we don't have the right imaging here. You're gonna need to go.
Sarah Hepburn: The hospital to get it looked at. And it was a weird moment for me because I didn't go with him. And at first I was like, oh, I should be sitting with him. Well, it turns out he was there for like seven hours. So I'm kind of glad I, you know, [00:47:00] it was, and he didn't need me. He was literally just sitting there.
Sarah Hepburn: But there were, you know, a few phone calls saying, mom, how do I handle this? Or, what's your advice in the best? Like, how would I ask this question? And so it's sort of the coaching to, you know, advocate for yourself and be persistent and don't wait for people to come tell you things. And so that was a really, like, it was, it was such a eye-opening moment for me to realize that I don't have to, um, I think like the health stuff was probably like one of the final things to let go of with them, right?
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. Um, and that was really, I mean, that was an example from two weeks ago. So it's like, right. Huh? Okay, this is where we're at.
Erik Hardy: Yeah, that's, it's, that's quite a shift. It's, it's a big, especially for a mother or for any parent really.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. And I was feeling really guilty that I wasn't there. And then, and he kept saying, he's like, mom, what are you gonna do?
Sarah Hepburn: Like, you're just gonna sit here and we'll, probably
Erik Hardy: knows, probably. Yeah. [00:48:00] Okay. So, um, I know I keep bouncing back and forth a bit, but jobs, you kind of bounced around a bit and then Yeah. Um, what does that, that brings us through, um,
Sarah Hepburn: why about like my sort of mid to late twenties, I would say. Okay. I had settled into a role, um, working in the operations area for a large, a large bank.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay. And it was a really cool company to work for. Um, everyone there was super smart. And super driven. It was, you know, a challenging environment to work in because everybody was so super smart. So you had to be on your toes all the time and mm-hmm. There was a lot of pressure to perform and get results.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, but I really liked it. And, um, so that was, I was, that was probably like my longest stop in the corporate world, I would say at 11, no, 10 years, I guess by the
Erik Hardy: time I was. Oh, that's a good chunk. That's a long time. Longer. [00:49:00] Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then when did you transition into interior design and your own kind of entrepreneurial business?
Sarah Hepburn: So I had, when I went back to work after having my twins, it was really, it was hard to juggle working in such a high pressure environment. Um, and, you know, in hindsight, I, we didn't do a good enough job, or I didn't do a good enough job of seeking out help and putting supports in place to make it work.
Sarah Hepburn: Like supports in place, like, um, Like the kids, you know, they were in daycare, but it would've been better if we had more help at home. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, if they were sick, who did that fall to? Like, there was just a lot of like side, or traveling for work was like a gong show. Trying to figure all that out.
Sarah Hepburn: Like there was just a lot of things that I, in hindsight, I didn't ask for help when I really needed it. I just kind of put my head down and slogged through it. Uhhuh. Um, so by the time I was pregnant with my [00:50:00] third, all I could think about is I can't, there's no way I can go back to that environment, right.
Sarah Hepburn: With three little kids like that. It was just crazy town. Um, and so I didn't go, I took my mat leave and I didn't go back. Nice. Um, but we did a big renovation on our house and at the time I started working, I was doing design work for, um, a local, a general contractor. Um, he had people asking him all the time.
Sarah Hepburn: For design help. And he didn't necessarily wanna help people choose paint colors and do all that stuff. And so I started working, um, with him and then decided to go back to school, um, and uh, go back to school for that. And sort of my business kind of just grew, grew from there, from
Erik Hardy: personal referrals. And how long, how long were you in that, like how long did you have your bus?
Erik Hardy: That business?
Sarah Hepburn: It's, it's still going. Um, it's still going. Got it. Yeah. But it's mostly just working with clients that I've worked with before. Sure. Okay. Coming back. [00:51:00] So it's probably, I guess it was like two, um, yeah, it was about 12 years
Erik Hardy: or so. Nice. And, and then, so what was really the. What was really the impetus for you to kind of, you've been writing, been journaling for a number of years, but like what really pushed you over the edge to take the leap and just say, okay, I'm officially doing this book.
Erik Hardy: Was it an event? Was it, you know, we've been in, I went to talk just a little bit about kind of the power of, of retreat time and reflection time, but I, I wondered, is there, is there one thing that really kicked you over the edge on that? Yeah,
Sarah Hepburn: uh, I mean, part of it was the whole, um, covid pandemic lockdown scenario.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay. The year, the year leading up to it, I, I had been at one of the retreats, um, with you. Mm-hmm. That's where you and I first met, and so that had kind of started to like open my eyes to possibility, I think is the right word. Right. And really starting to understand myself better and understanding the idea of what was possible better.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. Um, [00:52:00] but then when I realized it, things just started to get really tricky work-wise, you know, with lockdowns and who can do this and who can't do that and, right. I found myself annoyed with everybody. I was annoyed with contractors, I was annoyed with my clients. I was annoyed with suppliers. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Hepburn: And I was the common denominator in it all. Um, and it kind of forced me to take a really hard look at what I was doing and realizing that it, like, I loved it at one point, but it really told me that it was perhaps time to, to move on. Right. And I really, at that point, knew I wanted to build on the writing work and figure out what that could look like in terms of, um, you know, working with other people to help them in the way that I had uncovered these things for myself.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, [00:53:00] so that's kind of, sort of the journey that it's on. And I'm the, I guess with walking forward is that it's the idea that it's sort of launching me into the next, the next evolution, I
Erik Hardy: guess you could say. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your book, it, it has a tremendous amount of personal reflection, but, but there is a lot of tactical information in there.
Erik Hardy: I mean, it's, it's very practical. Um, I mean, it's, it's really built. I, I, one phrase I've written down that I wanted to chat with you about is this idea how that habits lead to calm in chaos. Mm-hmm. And, yep. And I, I think that's a theme that, that continues to surface in your book. So, um, how, where have you, or how do you kind of implement that in your own life as an example of habits leading to, leading to ca or leading to the calming of chaos?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. So it's the idea of, I mean, for me personally, I would say one of the biggest grounding habits for me is what I do [00:54:00] in the mornings. Mm-hmm. Um, cause I find if I have that stable start to my day, I can kind of manage what's what happens throughout the day. Right. But I guess the bigger part of it is knowing, having developed the clarity and then knowing what works and what doesn't work for me, it's almost like it's informed my decision tree, if you will, um, right.
Sarah Hepburn: When opportunities come along, I, because I've worked to develop the clarity of what I wanna do or what's important to me, or the type of person that I wanna be, it really makes, it, helps make decisions when something comes up. Because I can say, yeah, this is aligned with what. I'm thinking, and no, this isn't, um, right, and I don't always get it right.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, but what I'm finding is I'm getting it right more [00:55:00] often than I'm getting it wrong. Right. Um, and that's been really, really transformational because what was happening before is when I was saying yes to things that weren't aligned with, you know, they would enable me to, for, they would mean that, for example, I would stay up late and be exhausted or, um, you know, I was with people whose energy didn't, I don't know, didn't line up with the type of person I wanted to hang around or that type of thing.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, it would just leave me feeling, you know, it would just sort of, I guess it would just be like, you know, walking backwards, I guess you could say. Right. Um, so it's having the clarity to say, Hey, this works for me and this doesn't work for me. Helps me manage the sort of the, the chaos piece of it, which is, um, requests or unexpected things or, you know, [00:56:00] decisions and that sort of thing to be able to be able to sort of decide what, what makes sense.
Erik Hardy: Right. That's really interesting because literally just over the last few days I've been, I've been playing around this, this idea of clarity creates confidence. Mm-hmm. Um, meaning that when you're very clear about either who you are or as you're mentioning, maybe you know what role you want to play, what you wanna do, you're very confident or you become much more confident in the decisions that you make.
Erik Hardy: I mean, when you have clarity on, on, on who you are or the type of work that you wanna do, it's just like you can turn away those requests that aren't a good fit because you're confident in knowing they're not good when so many times, and I, I find this, this is a huge reflection. A huge issue that I really deal with sometimes is, is like when you're just kind of going along and you, you don't have that clarity, then it's like everything seems like a potential opportunity that you don't wanna miss out on.
Erik Hardy: And, and by trying to do everything, you kind of do nothing [00:57:00] well, or you don't have time and space when the right opportunity comes along. So it's really fascinating that you mentioned this idea of clarity. So talk to me a little bit about, yeah, you mentioned your morning routine really sets you up for the, for the day, and what is your morning, what does your morning routine look like?
Sarah Hepburn: So my morning routine is, I'm generally a early riser. Um, I always have been, and I think a lot of that's just the reflection of having gotten up and gone to the pool for five in the morning. Mm-hmm. So much in my teenage years. Um, but I like to get up early before anyone else in the house, um, because I like the quiet in the morning the best.
Sarah Hepburn: So literally I will get up, I will, uh, drink some lemon water. I will brew myself a cup of tea and, um, I will do a meditation and I'll stretch and I'll write in my journal. And I'll usually do sort of some, I'll write some notes of gratitude in my journal. Mm-hmm. And then I'll usually do [00:58:00] some morning page type writing activity for about 20 or 30 minutes or
Erik Hardy: so.
Erik Hardy: Okay. So somebody listening says, wow, that, that sounds like a lot of, a lot of different pieces. Like roughly how long would you say, what amount of time in the morning do you dedicate to that whole process?
Sarah Hepburn: Anywhere between an hour
Erik Hardy: and an hour and a half. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, that's not a tremendous amount of time when you think about it cuz you're gonna get up and have some water and drink some tea and do all those things anyway.
Erik Hardy: So I think, I think
Sarah Hepburn: the key thing that I've learned is what I don't do in the morning. Okay. Um, and what I don't do in the morning is, and I'm, you know, not perfect, I wanna just preface it with that, but I don't scroll my phone in the morning. Um, and like I try, you know, I try desperately not to like, get distracted by like, emptying the dishwasher.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. That can, that'll happen when it happens. And usually it's my husband who gets frustrated, like, he doesn't get frustrated, he just comes down and does that while his coffee's brewing. Um, but the, you know, like I, [00:59:00] it very intentionally don't wanna do like task type things. Right. Um, to start, to start the day.
Erik Hardy: No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, yeah. One of your, I think one of your chapter headings in your book, or one of the questions that comes up is this notion of getting clarity on who do you want to be. Mm-hmm. Um, talk a little bit because I think, again, that brings back that theme of clarity and that clarity, giving you confidence, and so understanding who you want to be in.
Erik Hardy: And, and in my mind that's not, it's not something as like, once you figure it out, that's who you necessarily have to be forever. It's kind of, tell me if you have a different thought on this, but it's like, who do you want to be in this present moment? Who do you want to be until for as long as you wanna be that person until you have a realization or something changes and you wanna switch.
Erik Hardy: So kind of, how do you think about that question? Who do you want to be and, and how do you find some clarity around that?
Sarah Hepburn: I think it is asking [01:00:00] yourself a lot of questions, um, and. I think there needs to be an element of taking time to pause to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, cause you're not gonna be able to fully, you're not gonna be able to understand even pieces of it when you've got, when you're trying to do other things.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, and it could be just understanding, you know, reflections on what your life looked like when you were growing up and understanding a little bit about the journey that shaped you to get you to the point where you are today. Right. Um, but I think there's also like an interesting element of looking forward and saying, you know, this is the type of person that I see myself being.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, and getting the clarity of, you know, what does that, like, what does that look like? And I'll, I'll sort of give you an example to help Sure. Please a little bit. But one of the things I've been thinking a lot about [01:01:00] is what do I want? What type of person do I wanna be when I'm 90, for example. Um, and the whole, um, you know, the idea, and I, I think you listened to like Huberman and Peter ot, those podcasts.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. But Peter OT in particular talks a lot about the concept of healthspan versus lifespan. Right. And when I first heard him say that, I hadn't, I was, I was kind of thinking, oh, well that was really interesting. But it made a ton of sense to me because I love the idea of thinking about what type of person I wanna be when I'm 90.
Sarah Hepburn: So like, I wanna be able to get up and off the ground with ease. Um, I wanna be able to hike in the mountains, no problem. Um, there's all sorts of things I wanna do. So if I back that up to where I am today, if that's the person I see myself being in my nineties, What type of person does that look [01:02:00] like now in my late forties?
Sarah Hepburn: Right? And what are the types of behaviors that do that? And so having that sort of vision or clarity around like forward looking, and it doesn't have to be as far out as 90. This just happens to be, this particular example that's been on my brain a lot uhhuh, is what types of things do I need to do? So I need to do, um, you know, I need to move my body every day and it just can't be, just, can't be like moving my body, but like I, you know, things like do Pilates for example, because mobility's a big thing.
Sarah Hepburn: And so it challenges you in different ways. And so it's kind of like getting that clarity around, looking forward into the future a little bit. Um, and then backing it up again. And what it does is it gives yourself the, um, Insight to say, and what I, and what I'm doing now are the decisions I'm making now are the things I'm saying now [01:03:00] aligned with who I wanna be in the future.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. And what's interesting about that is that I think a lot of people don't actually stop to even say, who do I wanna be in the future? And I sure didn't for the longest time. Um, yeah. So it's really, you know, I think you spend a lot of time saying, oh, well I used to be this way, or I feel like I'm getting so old, or I, there's times running out and I don't have enough time left to do this.
Sarah Hepburn: And it's kind of like I go a little bit mental when I hear people say, oh, I'm too old to do that. I'm like, no, you're not ever. Um, so it's uh, um, you know, so that's kind of like an example in terms of who you are. Being today is kind of a reflection of who you're gonna be tomorrow. Unless you're very intentional about what
Erik Hardy: you're doing today.
Erik Hardy: Changing. Yeah, no, exactly that. And, and so this kind of leads into, um, a question on how to do that [01:04:00] on, on kind of different timeframes. So you and I met at, on a, on a retreat, a personal development retreat retreat that was held in Ireland, and that was roughly a six day retreat. So seven day retreat in total.
Erik Hardy: Um, talk to me a a little bit about how you think of kind of the short duration, so what you may do on, on a daily basis in terms of, you know, adding it into your morning routine versus, and how that, how that plays into looking forward versus, and the need for maybe these longer extended retreats and, and what does the interval look like?
Erik Hardy: Is it, do you think about, oh, I wanna do a long retreat a year. Do I wanna do a couple days a quarter? Like, how do you think about that when you're trying to look forward and fitting in that, into your, into your life?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, it's, um, so until I did that first longer one, which was, um, almost four years ago, I guess.
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. And, um, I didn't really appreciate just how [01:05:00] powerful it was to have that longer space to think and to pause and to regroup. Um, right. But then once I had it, I knew how important it was to me. Um, and, you know, I'm, truth be told, I'm not as good about taking, figuring out how to plan and, and get that time to work.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, I mean, I'm in sort of a space right now where I'm really craving it, um mm-hmm. And because I know how it would calm my nervous system and just like settle my brain, my brain down. Right. Um, so it's really now that I have the awareness. To be able to do it or the awareness of the effects of doing it? I would say like, you know, yes, like a longer week is, for me would be ideal like once a year, but I actually almost [01:06:00] think it would probably be better to do twice a year and maybe not a week, but
Erik Hardy: something, something along those lines.
Erik Hardy: Right. What, what do you kind of feel like maybe is the minimum, I know this is kind of a loaded question, but let's say someone's trying to think, you know, I can't do a week, but maybe I could do, you know, two days at a hotel and hour away. Like, where is that line between having enough time to drop in and, and kind of feel that pace and get that clarity or peace and get that clarity versus, um, you know, you're just, you're just trying to cram a, a square peg into a round hole and you're not gonna ultimately get what you're looking for out of that, where do you, where do you see that line being?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, I mean, I think you need like a, at least a full day. So if you were to, in your example, um, you know, a hotel an hour away for example, but you have like two nights, so, and then you have a full day in the middle. Right. Um, that certainly would give you time to not feel like you have to get up and go the next [01:07:00] day, not feel like you have to stay up all night to do what you wanna do.
Sarah Hepburn: You can get some good sleep. Mm-hmm. You can mood your body, you can do whatever. Um, that, you know, I think is a really, a really good way to start. Right. Uh, I think there's other things too, like, um, you know, even going for a walk or for a long car ride mm-hmm. Without a podcast and without talking to anybody and without the radio and just sitting like just you and your, your brain type idea.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, and I think the default now is for people to listen to podcasts or books or whatever. Right. Um, instead of just letting their thoughts ramble and wander.
Erik Hardy: I can't remember who it is, but I've heard recently about someone has this notion of essentially going for the 12 hour walk with no, you know, no headphones, just what you were saying.
Erik Hardy: Just, just silence. Yeah. So
Sarah Hepburn: there, um, it's, uh, Colin [01:08:00] o Brady. That's right. Yes. Yeah. So he wrote a book called The 12 Hour Walk. Okay. I read it last fall actually. So that's, that's one of the things that's been on my, my hit list, um, to do this summer, is just literally try that out and
Erik Hardy: see what that, that's fascinating.
Erik Hardy: Yeah. Well, one other, I mean, I could talk to you for about another three hours just about things in your book, but one thing I did want to touch on, um, In one of those retreats in Ireland. And you mentioned this in your book, we did this, did an obituary exercise in which we sat down, actually we're sitting in a graveyard.
Erik Hardy: Mm-hmm. Um, at a small church in Ireland, in the, in the countryside of Ireland. And it was kind of to imagine what you would like your obituary to be. I'm assuming you lived, you know, a full, happy, healthy life. In essence. What, what do you hope that people would say about you? Think about you, what were your hope, your obituary, eulogy would be?
Erik Hardy: So can you talk a little bit about kind of that exercise and, and what you got out of it and maybe what you think other [01:09:00] folks could, and feel free to expand on the exercise itself, so if someone would like to try to do it themselves, kind of what that might be like.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I remember that particular day we were wandering around looking at the, um, The tombstones and they had the names and how long they lived.
Sarah Hepburn: And one of the thoughts at that point that was going through my head was, I wonder what my family would say when they're gathered around my grave site. And the sort of the next piece of it was, is um, thinking about the opportunity to remember yourself in the way you want to be remembered. And which I think is a real shift from a sort of traditional obituary, which is where people write something of what they think people would want to say about you.
Sarah Hepburn: And that particular exercise I found so powerful because it was the [01:10:00] opportunity for me to say, this is how I want to be remembered. Um, this is the things I want people to say about me. And then it offered me the opportunity to just sense, check that and say, am I doing the things that I say I want to be remembered for, um, in my obituary?
Sarah Hepburn: Mm-hmm. And that was sort of the super powerful piece of it for me. So I, when I started writing that exercise, um, and, you know, I do share the obituary that I wrote in, um, in moving forward, but it's the piece of it. I kind of wrote it a little bit forward looking, knowing that I wasn't quite doing everything at that point.
Sarah Hepburn: But what it helped me really do was focus on, these are the things that are important to me, so I wanna make sure that I'm continuing to do those things, or I wanna start those things or let go of other things. Um, and it just, it kind of helped to [01:11:00] like narrow, narrow my focus a little bit. Right. And. Stop thinking about this is what I want people to say, and instead actually just saying, this is what I want you to say.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. So it's, yeah, it's like kind of taking, taking control of
Erik Hardy: your own life. Well, and it's interesting too, I mean, one thing, um, that I think came up for you and then I kind of also remember is that initially you have this feeling around, um, kind of accomplishments or, you know, titles. Like, Sarah was a good mother, Sarah was a Good, which you want all of those things.
Erik Hardy: But it, I mean, talk a little bit about how you want people to, like, remember you other than just title wise, like the, the feelings and, and the, the expressions that you want to have around versus maybe something you achieved.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. So I want, like, I think the biggest thing is I want people to remember how I made them feel when I was with them.
Sarah Hepburn: That's beautiful. Um, I don't want [01:12:00] people to ever feel like they are, um, Not worthy in some way. Mm-hmm. You know, and they start comparing themselves and it sort of goes across the board with just people that I might casually meet, um, to, you know, relationships with my kids, for example. And, um, you know, knowing that they are, you know, a huge relationship to me, but there's also a really important relationship to myself as well.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, right. But that's kind of like, I want people to remember, not necessarily what I did, but how I made them feel when we were together.
Erik Hardy: So talk to me just a little bit about, so how does that translate into, you know, a direct life? Like, what do you think about when you're looking forward to, to make that shift?
Erik Hardy: So, so that you're, when you're around people, they, you're creating that feeling or at least you're hoping to create that feeling that you want them to have kind of going away from that [01:13:00] interaction.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, for sure. So it's things like, um, Re like when I'm having a conversation with somebody, like really, like, ha, like I'm leaning into your screen now as I'm talking to Right, exactly.
Sarah Hepburn: Really having like a con uh, a conversation and not eyes darting all over the place, like wondering, oh, who's coming into the room? Or who can I talk to? Mm-hmm. Next type idea. So that interaction is the only interaction for me in that moment. Right. And then, um, you know, leaving, then I would go on to talk to somebody else and it would be sort of the same, the same kind of same kind of feeling.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. Um, like it translates to my kids that I've become, I, like, I used to be like miss multitasker of laptop open and on the phone and talking to my kids and doing whatever. And now it's just a, you know, like a leaning on the kitchen counter while they're talking about what happened at school that day or something like that.
Sarah Hepburn: And it's, [01:14:00] There's a real element of having to slow down, um, and not race through interactions with people is what I've noticed. Right. And what's been really cool about it is since writing that obituary and since becoming super conscious of the feeling part of it. Mm-hmm. Um, um, it's in, not in every case, but in some cases it's extended to the way other people make me feel when I'm talking to them.
Sarah Hepburn: Right.
Erik Hardy: Um, which is really cool. Yeah. I was curious, have you, have you noticed a kind of a palpable shift in, in now your interactions with others on how that's reflected back to you
Sarah Hepburn: A little bit? Yeah. Yeah. And certainly the type of energy that I get from people, um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's an evolving thing.
Sarah Hepburn: I would say. I've, I've noticed it certainly the more shift at my end, but I'm starting to feel it with other interactions as well. And
Erik Hardy: is that something that you kind of. [01:15:00] Declared like you basically told to your family, Hey, you know, I know that I've kind of been distracted around you. Like my goal is to be more present with you and to be focused in, I mean, did you explicitly state that or was it just kind of a, well, you kind of shook your head.
Erik Hardy: You were shaking your head no, there, but, um, yeah, no,
Sarah Hepburn: it's, uh, it just kind of happened. Um Okay. It's just, it was sort of a, I think it was like a semi-conscious decision at first. Right. Um, and then it became very conscious once I was aware of that type of beha that I was doing that. Right. Or behaving in that way, in that
Erik Hardy: distracted way.
Erik Hardy: Yeah. Would you recommend, I mean, what do you think about someone just saying to their family or friends or whoever they wanna be more present with? Just say, Hey, declaring that right up front and saying, this is my goal. Please help me keep, please, help keep me on task if I am, if I'm showing up in this distracted manner.
Erik Hardy: Do you think that would be a good approach or.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, I totally do. And I think that, you know, [01:16:00] you can s something that you can say to people is, Hey, this is how I wanna start showing up. Mm-hmm. But what I really need you guys to do is understand this is what I think it looks like. And as we go through, you know, are, am is what I'm saying is my behavior, um, reflecting what I'm saying.
Sarah Hepburn: I
Erik Hardy: I love that. Yeah. That's fantastic. Mm-hmm. Um, I wanna be conscious of time here and not keep you too much more. Do we have like four or five more minutes? Are you good or you need, I got all the time in the world for you. Oh, okay. Good. Um, well in that case, uh, you know, the two, so two things, two other things and these kind of tie together.
Erik Hardy: Um, checking in on your dreams regularly and listening to your intuition. Two themes that kind of come up in your book are, do come up in your book walking forward. How, how do you feel those two, do those two, two things tie together and, um, [01:17:00] what maybe habits or, or even little, little things can people do to make sure that they're checking in on their dreams and listening to their intuition?
Erik Hardy: Yeah,
Sarah Hepburn: so one I think for sure is to start to get clarity and giving yourself permission to dream. Mm-hmm. Um, which I think is something that you can kind of, it's, it's like anything. It's a habit, it's a mindset of Right, right. Giving yourself permission to say that where you are today doesn't always have to be where you are tomorrow.
Sarah Hepburn: Okay. Um, and this whole sort of the idea of the blue sky type thinking that there's no, there's no limit on dreams, is what I'm trying
Erik Hardy: to say. Um, that's about, even now, now just pausing on that statement. There's no limit on dreams. I think some people. Maybe even most people are gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable with that because they say, oh, well I can't dream that big because I can, I can never do that.
Erik Hardy: Like, yeah. What's your [01:18:00] take on that? Yeah, I mean, I
Sarah Hepburn: think that's the minute you start adding limiting beliefs to something, the minute your dreams start to shrink. And I think if you have that level of expansive thinking where that anything is possible, uhhuh, um, it gives yourself permission to walk to, to sort of just move in that direction, um, without, without putting like a limit on things, right?
Sarah Hepburn: So, you know, for example, that's too much money, or I could never do that because I could never afford it, right? Then you're always going to believe that you can't afford something. Um, and it might not be that thing that's your dream, but because you've put a limiting belief like that in one space, it's gonna trickle down to other parts, other parts of your life, right?
Sarah Hepburn: Um, so yeah, for sure. Like, I mean, I think [01:19:00] there's like dreams. Like I want to be, I don't know, the Queen of England. It's a really crappy one, but the, um, you know what I mean? Like, there's like, right some that are just so, but I'm talking about dreams. Like I want to hike or climb Mount Kilimanjaro. Like there's some things that, that seems right now very impossible and can't figure out what it would look like or how it would go, but there's real power in writing down what your dreams are and looking at them in terms of what you've written them down.
Sarah Hepburn: And, you know, you don't have to write them down every day, um, depending on how near or far those dreams are to where your current reality is at. But what's important is that you are thinking about that way and you're thinking about possibility and you're opening yourselves up. Because what will happen is when you sit with a, a mindset of possibility and [01:20:00] expansive and open to anything, right.
Sarah Hepburn: When various opportunities come at you, all of a sudden you'll be ready to receive them, as opposed to saying, oh, I'm not good enough, or That's not enough for
Erik Hardy: me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's almost like the universe sometimes will set in front of you, uh, what you think, what, what you think you deserve, or what you're even even thinking about.
Erik Hardy: Right. So, yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. Um, one of the quotes in the book that I absolutely loved is this quote, maybe life like a yoga pose, is Best lived on edge. Mm-hmm. Um, tell me a little bit about what that, kind of, what that means to you. Yeah.
Sarah Hepburn: So it's, it comes, I mean, the quote that story or section I guess came from my own sort of yoga experience where I felt like I was never bending into the correct position.
Sarah Hepburn: [01:21:00] Right. Um, you know, my downward dog, my heels were never in the right position, or I could never get into a pigeon pose properly or whatever. And it was the idea that there is something, somehow there's a right and a wrong way to do to do things. Mm-hmm. And then I realized that if you just push yourself a little bit further than you think you can, often your body will stretch or your you will stretch in ways you didn't think were possible.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. And so, like you, you know, using the, the yoga example, once I let go of how it. Should be doing and just started to challenge myself each time I was doing something. Um, it, you know, really sort of spoke to me the idea that there's not, you need to just try to do something that you don't think you may not be capable of doing.
Sarah Hepburn: And it's the idea of that, you know, that edge [01:22:00] of being bendy in a yoga pose versus executing or, and executing the so-called perfect yoga pose versus attempting to get there feeling kind of wobbly, but you've pushed yourself already further than you thought. And so it really sort of struck me the parallels between that and life of only taking yourself as far as you think you can do something versus pushing yourself just that little bending yourself, just that extra little bit, um, further where you feel like you're kind of on the edge.
Sarah Hepburn: Right. And you're never quite feeling very stable in that yoga pose and nor you're really feeling that stable in life, but you're kind of pushing and challenging yourself just a little bit beyond your comfort zone. Mm-hmm. So to speak. Mm-hmm.
Erik Hardy: Um, yeah, I think I've heard just recently heard this, this notion that growth is between comfortable and impossible.
Erik Hardy: So that space between what's comfortable and what you [01:23:00] think is impossible, like essentially just kind of what you're saying, getting on the edge. What would be an example of that? I mean, I know we were talking about yoga, but um, you know, where else in life, what would be another example of where someone may be able to push themselves just a little bit further than what's comfortable so that they can grow into something, something else?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah, so I think some of it might be like, for example, in like a work setting. Mm-hmm. Um, staying. Yes. To something that makes you super nervous or super uncomfortable. So it could be a project at work that you may not feel like you're totally ready for or totally qualified for, um, but somebody else in your organization thinks that you can do it right.
Sarah Hepburn: And you've got this opportunity sitting in front of you, and you sort of have a choice at that point to say yes to it, even though you don't feel totally ready. Or you could say no and say, you know what? I'm not totally ready yet. I think it's better if [01:24:00] so and so takes this on. But if you say yes to something when you're not totally ready for it, mm-hmm.
Sarah Hepburn: There are ways to push yourself forward and take on that project at work. And by doing things like asking for help along the way, by doing things like figuring out what are the small steps you can take. To develop what that project plan looks like, and who else do you need on your team, and what does that all look like, right?
Sarah Hepburn: So the idea that you can still say yes to something when you're not totally ready to do it, or you don't think it will be, uh, so-called perfect or whatever, uhhuh, but realizing that you can still say yes to it, but put some support in place, kind of like a spotter, right? Mm-hmm. Like there's a spotter, and the spotter might be your team or the people that you ask help for or, um, you know, mentors along the way.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, so that would [01:25:00] kind of be, you know, a, like a a, a exam, a non yoga example, um, to think about in
Erik Hardy: that way. No, that's, that's, that's perfect. And then along those same lines, I mean, when someone is pushing themself, I think the thing that everyone's afraid of is this notion of failure. So let's say I do mm-hmm.
Erik Hardy: Push myself and, you know, it doesn't work out. And I, I. Quote unquote fail. Yep. Talk to me a little bit about your viewpoint of failure. I mean, people view failure as negative, but in your experience, or how would you, how would you coach people to look at failure in that scenario when they're trying to grow?
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. So I used to not push myself to the point where I could fail. I would get myself so far and then bail out and say, that didn't work right. When really, if I just pushed myself a little bit further, I might have succeeded and I might have failed. Mm-hmm. And [01:26:00] what I've come to understand about the idea of failure now and what I coach people on and talk to people about is that failure is merely a data point in life.
Sarah Hepburn: It's a sort of a, like a, an information point that says, okay, so that might not have worked out how I thought it was going to work out. Right. But this is what I learned about that particular experience. And sometimes there's like weird hidden, um, you know, silver linings or whatever you want to call it, where Sure.
Sarah Hepburn: Unexpected things happen out of failure that you could never have anticipated. Mm-hmm. And so it's the idea that you learn as much, if not more from failure than you do from being successful at something and you owe it to yourself to, to try it even though you, it's not guaranteed.
Erik Hardy: Right. Yeah. It's interesting, uh, I'm nodding my head along with you because I think I was [01:27:00] similar in that I would essentially not attempt things and I thought there was even a possibility that I would fail at.
Erik Hardy: I mean, that's, yeah. Actually one reason I started this podcast is I, I wanted to push myself into something that I, you know, who knows where this is gonna go, but it's, it's, yeah. You know, I'm just gonna do this and see what happens. Um, And the other adaptation I've made is, is it seems like we always think about failure in this, that, that, that there's this end point and it's either gonna be at the end of this, it's either I'm gonna be, I'm have succeeded or have failed.
Erik Hardy: But in actuality, everything we do is, is kind of part of our life. And so if you look at the whole journey, then I think it really locks in what you're saying of, Hey, it may seem like a failure for this one little instance in what you're thinking about, but in the grand picture of your life. Like that could be what opens the door to this, the next opportunity.
Erik Hardy: And it's, it's really what you do with the outcome as opposed to the outcome necessarily itself is kind of what I hear you saying.
Sarah Hepburn: Yeah. No, I really like [01:28:00] how you just said that. It's, you know, it's, it's what you do with it, not what the actual, it's, it's not being too caught up in what you thought the outcome
Erik Hardy: would be.
Erik Hardy: Right. Um, awesome. Uh, so are you working on another book yet? I've
Sarah Hepburn: got an idea for a few different books, so I'm nice still
Erik Hardy: thinking about what that's gonna look like. Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, with this book, so obviously people definitely go out and get walking forward, um mm-hmm. It's fantastic. There's so much practical information, lots of exercises that you can do, lots of takeaways from it, and hopefully we've high, obviously highlighted some of this in this con, some of those in this conversation.
Erik Hardy: Um, I know this is again another loaded question, but if, if people could, you know, if a reader reads this and let's say they have three things, if they could only have three things to take away from it, what do you hope that, that people would, would finish your book and feel at the end of it? Or, [01:29:00] or take and use as they, as they look forward and move forward into their life?
Erik Hardy: Yeah, for
Sarah Hepburn: sure. So I think the first one is whatever they're thinking about to just start it, to stop thinking and just start. I love that and. Keep it, you know, keep it simple and don't overcomplicate it as you're going. The second piece is, once you start, don't stop. So keep, you know, consistency, it builds the momentum and it goes on and on and on.
Sarah Hepburn: And then I guess the third, the third piece that I really, really want people to take away from it is that, um, life happens. Um, we are all, we're all human. And by definition that means that we, things are going to come up that are beyond our so-called control. Mm-hmm. And that includes how we do things and to afford ourselves, um, a giant hug [01:30:00] and a lot of kindness to ourselves, right?
Sarah Hepburn: And not be ourselves up for things. So if things don't work out, if you don't continue doing something that you thought you wanted to be doing, um, to regroup, To be kind to yourself, to understand that it's just one data point along the way of life, and to circle back and keep going. So it's really the three things.
Sarah Hepburn: It's the idea of just start, keep going and be nice to yourself.
Erik Hardy: That's beautiful. I I love those. That is fantastic. Yeah. Oh, awesome. Well, you mentioned you have a newsletter and you're doing your blog. Um, what is the, what's the best way for people to connect with you? Follow you, stay on top of what you're doing?
Erik Hardy: So for
Sarah Hepburn: sure, so there's my website, which is sarah hepburn.ca, and on the homepage of the website there is a little keep in touch button in the top right corner. I guess on mobile, it might be [01:31:00] in the top part. But anyway, it's a big button. It says keep in touch and people can subscribe there to receive my weekly letter from Sarah.
Sarah Hepburn: Um, I'm in the process of developing some more sort of habits, pools, and downloads that you can hear about in my weekly letter, and they'll be on my website as well. Um, I spend a fair amount of time on Instagram and I can be found there, um, at underscore Sarah Hepburn. And so it's Sarah with an H, and then Hepburn, h e p b u r n, like Audrey or Catherine.
Erik Hardy: Nice. Wonderful. And you post, uh, you post some great videos on Instagram. Usually do a a It's a Tuesday. Tuesday.
Sarah Hepburn: Tuesday tip. Yeah. Tuesday tips. So it's some, some of it is little Tuesday. Tips with Sarah is what I started a little while back. Um, people seem to really be, really be liking them. Um, it's insights in terms of, you know, something that might have happened to me in a few days leading [01:32:00] up to it.
Sarah Hepburn: Some of it are stories from walking Forward that I share. There's sort of a mix of things and those can all be found. On my Instagram page as well.
Erik Hardy: Well, just, again, a huge, uh, just huge congratulations to you on an awesome, awesome book. And just everything, the way you're showing up in the world and everything you're putting out there, uh, it's greatly appreciated.
Erik Hardy: And I just feel grateful to, to have gotten a chance to know you, uh, through a couple of retreats. Mm-hmm. And, and just have kept in touch. So thank you for all that you do and the way you're showing up in the world.
Sarah Hepburn: This is awesome, Eric. Thank you so much. I loved our
Erik Hardy: chat today. Yeah, me too. I really appreciate the time.
Erik Hardy: Yeah. So, oh, hey, you're still here. Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode with Sarah. If you did, please be sure to like, subscribe on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, wherever you found this. Definitely like, and subscribe and rate us. If you listen to this on Spotify or Apple iTunes, [01:33:00] please be sure to give us a, a review there as well.
Erik Hardy: So thank you so much and. Have a great week.