077 | Chris Le Beau | Scaling Cocktail Culture | Decoding Cocktails Podcast

Show Notes

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, we have an insightful discussion with Chris Le Beau, who transitioned from a strategic consulting role into the world of mixology.

The conversation explores Le Beau's passion for cocktails and the journey of learning and teaching cocktail-making.

Key topics include the importance of mastering classic cocktails like the Old Fashioned, the impact of consumer perceptions on cocktail culture, and the significance of designing accessible yet informative menus in bars.

We also discuss effectively bridging the gap between complex mixology and everyday cocktail enjoyment.

Throughout the episode, the emphasis is on refining the basics and imparting knowledge to create a better drinking experience for everyone.

00:00 Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:27 Guest Introduction and Background

01:09 Journey into Mixology

03:51 From Passion Project to Business

04:23 Consumer Perspective on Cocktails

10:57 The Importance of Cocktail Fundamentals

13:05 Challenges in Cocktail Culture

28:17 Menu Design and Customer Experience

33:30 Closing Remarks

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Chris Le Beau

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations. You can get in touch at [e-mail] 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Building Bottom-Up Strategies WITH Drinks Leaders Managing Top-Down Expectations | MAFFEO DRINKS Founder & Podcast Host

Guest

Chris Le Beau

Host | Decoding Cocktails

What is MAFFEO DRINKS: Built Bottom-up?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks business podcast delivering actionable insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
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Now let's dive into today's
episode.

Hi Tris, welcome to the show.
How you doing?

I'm just fine over here.
It's, it was fun when you

reached out a while back and
said you've been following mine

for a while.
And so it was great to kind of

hear that and start following
yours and I'm really glad we

could connect today.
Fantastic.

Now that's, that's really great.
It's a great honor to have you.

I listened to quite a few before
reaching out to you.

And then I, I saw yourself on,
on SAP stack and then I saw,

wow, this could be really an, an
interesting one to do together,

especially because we have, you
know, like with slightly

different angles, but you know,
on some of the guests we're the

same ones.
So it's very interesting to

bounce ideas off with each
other.

Yes, indeed.
So tell us a little bit about

you so that the Mafia Drinks
Podcast listeners learn more

about you.
Sure.

So for 16 years I worked in
completely different line of

work.
I worked for banks, hospitals,

worked in all sorts of different
consulting roles, you know, and

strategic capacity.
But mixology had been an

interest of mine.
And so I made cocktails, went to

cocktail bars, had really been
into them for about 6 or 8

years.
And as I kind of slowly in the

keyword is slowly made my way
further into things, I like to

say that a couple of interesting
things happened.

A good friend and now mentor, a
guy named Tim Wiggins, who runs

a number of notable bars in my
city of Saint Louis.

We became friends and Tim
started being like, oh, it seems

like you're into this.
Like read this book, try this

thing.
In the meanwhile, we also had a

very boutique liquor store open
up here called Intoxicology.

And that became a place where I
could go, I like to say, at

least here in the US, for
example, that if you've got a

question about whiskey or
tequila, there's a good chance

that a lot of liquor stores can
answer your questions.

But if you have a question about
what is a a fresbois, what tell

me more about, you know, single
malt versus grain whiskeys or

Old Tom Jin, What is that?
You're going to be in a tough

spot.
And in toxicology became a place

that I could go with my
questions.

And so between these things, I
started experimenting quite a

bit.
And then when I read a book

called the Codecs by the bar
group Death and Co here in the

US, it's one of a couple books
that has made these arguments

over the years that there's only
a handful of drinks in the

world.
And I started to think to

myself, I was like, what if more
people understood, like to think

about a cocktail this way?
An analogy I use all the time in

my classes is cocktails are like
tacos, to use a slightly more

American analogy that if you can
make a beef Taco, that a chicken

Taco is just a simple set of
substitutions away.

So I then final step in terms of
really getting this thing off

the ground was the book that I
discovered is great, but it's

really written for bartenders,
for like mixologists that are

deep in the fray.
And the reality is 85% of those

recipes you're never going to
make.

And so I kind of, you know,
metaphorically stripped out a

whole bunch of that and said,
what do people need to know in

order to actually successfully
make a drink as opposed to have

to make a quote, UN quote fancy
drink.

And so then right upstairs from
where we sit is the bar in my

house.
And I started inviting my

friends over being trying to
like, hey, here's what I'm

working on.
What do you think of this?

And that was in fall of 2019.
Fast forward 6-8 months, I

thought that my little passion
project was over.

And that's when the request for
virtual classes started coming

in.
And Fast forward a year later to

March of 2021, I had done some
20 or 30 classes for people all

over the US and that really led
to me deciding that I would make

this my business from now on.
Wow, that's a great story.

What I love about it and you
know, we, we spoke about this

previously that, you know, like
you take it from, let's call it

like a consumer, like a drinker
kind of angle now, which is in a

way similar to my story because
I came from beer.

You know, I work in a CB Miller,
Asahi, Casper, you know, like

big, big Brewers, but I've
always liked cocktails.

But I never really sort of like
managed to enter the spirits

world from a corporate
perspective for some reason.

I don't know why that gave me
the opportunity to look at

things differently because I did
a WSET level 2 on, on wines

first, then on spirits, because
I wanted to have a round, you

know, experience because I knew
a lot of about beer, but I

didn't know the other
categories.

And what's interesting is that
you see things from different

perspective.
And sometimes the crazy and

funny thing at the same time is
that I see that I know more than

people that have been in the
business for, for a long time

because maybe they haven't done
WSCT, They haven't challenged

the status quo.
You know, they've just got what

their, let's say, brand
induction back in the days has

been, whether working for a
whiskey, for a vodka, for, you

know, whatever there was.
Sometimes also like when you

work in a big corporate, you
tend not to try that many of the

competitors because, you know,
you go out to bars doing

sampling, doing things and you
end up drinking your own stuff

kind of thing.
And that kind of like closes

your eyes a little bit now.
So what I love about listening

to you is that, you know, you
take it from a kind of like

challenger perspective, I'm
assuming, but you know, that not

being a bartender, you know,
historically, you know, like

born bartender, you know, that
kind of like puts you in the

challenging seat and then say,
OK, I need to prove myself and I

need to look at things from
another angle rather than people

that have been doing that since
they were, you know, 21 serving

drinks.
And this is where I am very

grateful actually for my
business background or like

strategic marketing background
because I feel like part of what

I realized it.
And I, I feel like I'd, I come

to this viewpoint honestly, is
that there are many people out

there who are better at creating
and better at making drinks than

I am.
But I feel like along the way,

it's easy for a lot of industry
professionals to forget what

people do and don't know.
And so it is where I feel like

one, I think that this will come
up.

I'm sure throughout our
conversation.

I do bring a lot of passion and
excitement to that, and that's

part of what I bring to the
table.

But I think it's also that I
think in general, when teaching

any skill, it's easy for there
to be a lot of assumed

knowledge.
I like to say that 80 plus

percent of the time I hand
someone a cocktail shaker, they

just look at me wide eyed like
how how does this work?

Right?
And then to carry that forward

even to what I think would even
though you could argue the

Margarita is the the drink of
the US, that for the home

cocktailer, I think it probably
was even more fair to say that

outside of something like a a
vodka soda, that the old

fashioned pie has the most zeal
amongst the home cocktail maker

would be my general perception
in the US and that percentage of

people who are comfortable
stirring a drink is even lower

than that.
And so to me, I think it's like

you hand someone a recipe, it's
like assemble these ingredients,

check, you know, measure them
into this thing, check, I can do

that.
But like, does this really need

to be shaken?
Does this really need to be

stirred?
Or how does this even happen?

And so having the time to
patiently walk someone through

that and why it's important to
shake a cocktail hard, why these

things matter.
The analogy that I'm almost

tired of hearing myself staying
at some point cuz there's so

many culinary analogies.
But to take a nice cut of a beef

sirloin steak and to season it
properly, you let it, you know,

age for a day or two to kind of
really kind of settle as if as

opposed to searing that properly
on a grill, you take that and

cook it in a microwave, it will
not taste very good.

And that is the that's the
technique end of things that

people don't understand when it
comes to a cocktail that at this

point to jump way ahead in our
conversation when you can bring

me back to the beginning in a
minute, is craft and and quality

of bottles.
And there's plenty of people out

there who are pretending to be
great right now.

But like there's plenty of great
bottles out there.

So people have good booze at
home, but how they are preparing

it matters.
And a lot of people don't

understand how to properly
prepare a cocktail.

And so I think that's part of
the problem with the industry is

we just assume people know how
to shake a cocktail and the

average person has no clue.
It's also like, how do you bring

good cocktail making at scale
because you know, like what what

I like about, you know, our
conversation is that, you know,

you're in San Luis, which is
which is not really like one of

the big epicenter of you know,
cocktail culture is that it's

not London, New York and San
Francisco and Singapore and you

name it.
So the insights that you get is

basically more like like a
normal person.

You know, like it's not like A50
best bars, kind of like geek

that no, that only goes through
Michelin star restaurants, only

goes to 50 best bars and only
goes to, you know, BCB tails and

and so on.
And so it's like, how do we

bring this knowledge to the
regular person that back in the

days was me?
Because, you know, I also like

I, I enter cocktail bars when I
was selling beer and I look like

the weird guys, like, why is
this whiskey smelling smoke?

And why is one with the E and
why without the E?

All these kind of like basic
questions that of course, I

mean, any, anybody now can
Google them and so on.

But then it's like, how do I
make it so that when I invite

people over, you know, I can
actually do a proper cocktail

and not not just like a gin and
Sonic or a spritz kind of thing,

which anyway, even even the
spirits, you know, can't be done

badly.
Anyway, let's dive into this.

I mean, you mentioned the old
fashioned as a bread and butter.

Can a goalie like of cocktail
making now.

So what what do you think are
two cocktails that everybody

should start from and everybody
should be, you know, looking

into before, you know, fast
tracking themselves and and

going into fancy mixology?
So 1 I think an old fashioned is

always a good thing.
I I recently finished reading

and I think this was part of
another conversation when I had

finished reading a book called I
think it's It Doesn't Matter.

It's by this guy named Kevin
Peterson out of Detroit, MI.

I think it's called Cocktail
Theory.

But Kevin talks about why an old
fashioned is a very difficult

drink to balance.
And I do think that the

radically simple drink.
Yeah.

Sometimes I think it's helpful
to step away from the cocktail

world for a minute, that in the
the culinary world, the example

is often the omelette.
You know, you learn how to make

the omelette properly.
And then once you can do that,

then you kind of move on.
I read a book called The Front

of House, and then I'll promise
I'll talk about drinks.

But this restaurant group in
Philadelphia, here in the US,

they said that they spent an
insane amount of time working on

their French fries are palm
frites for the more

international crowd out there.
But they spent a lot of time

perfecting these things because
their comment was, we believe in

is this style of kind of pub
style restaurant that we are

only as good as our French
fries.

And so I think there's a need,
whether that's an ego

perspective or a business
perspective, to want to look

like what you're doing is really
cool.

And if you leap past the
fundamentals of things, because

the more ingredients you put
into a drink, the more complex

it gets.
But I would argue it's easier to

lose yourself in terms of, is
this drink performing optimally,

So understanding from a
radically simple drink, is this

old fashioned balanced properly?
Is this daiquiri or Gimlet or

whiskey sour balanced properly?
I think understanding the

simplistic side first, because
there's less places to hide is

really what exploits whether
you're using the right balance

of ingredients, ratios,
technique, etcetera.

I think it's important to do
that first.

I, I think that's the big thing
is like, you know, everybody

wants to look cool on Instagram
and everybody wants to look at

this specialty drink, but it's a
way that you can kind of end up

overshooting the moon.
Why do you think there is this

kind of like rush into, you
know, skipping the classics now?

Like when I, when I go into
cocktail bars, when I travel, I

tend to go to a kind of like
different type of outlets now.

So like I, I go to the nice one,
like to the fancy one with

signature cocktails and so on.
And then I go to some more basic

ones.
But what I've noticed is that

there is no middle ground.
There is either this super

mixology, you know, where
basically like I have no idea

what I'm drinking because it's
super curated and creative.

So like I cannot really put it
into a a box.

Like it is this kind of
resembling an old fashioned and

Negroni or, you know, like I
can't really do that.

And then there's the aperas
creates gin and tonic.

I don't know what it in the US
could be.

I don't know, like, probably
that the Margarita would be the

most basic, kind of like staple
cocktail that every restaurant

would serve, you know?
But there's something in between

that I'm missing, the proper
line of classics that in many

places, you know, you find the
signatures and the classics.

But in the majority of the
places, like, the classics are

just taken for granted.
There's like, of course, you can

ask a classic, you know?
Yeah, but if I don't see it on

the menu, I'm never going to ask
you because like, I would look

like an idiot, you know, Because
I would be like this who's this

old school guy that wants to
have a Negroni while I'm having

like a line of 15 amazing
cocktails that all count with

their specific bespoke glass?
And who's this guy asking me?

Any granny, you know?
So why do you think there is

this kind of like forgetting the
basic, jumping into fancy

mixology and no focus on the
middle ground, which is

basically what builds brands at
scale?

I think first I mean to really
dissect the human psychology.

I think there is a craving that
people have for newness or in

appearing of want to try
something new.

Here's what I think is the the
antithetical to this is for the

average American, I think their
vision of going to Italy is I

want to have this pasta dish
that has been made the same way

by this restaurant for the past
150 years.

And for some reason, when we
come back inside of our own

borders, I like I want to see
something that's totally new,

totally innovative.
And those two things don't

square, but it's the story they
tell themselves about these

things.
And I think from the bartender's

perspective of things, we have
people who have perhaps if they

are kind of more of that
mixology ilk, for lack of a

better word, I hope it we find a
better one sometime.

It doesn't sound quite so
Snooty, but daiquiris are so

overplayed to them.
Negronis are so overplayed to

them that like everybody's up on
this.

And I can tell you yesterday I
did a class with 12 people all

of reasonable means.
And for all of them is pretty

much always happens and I'm
always worried somebody's is

going to eye roll me.
But when I roll in, we made a

daiquiri with with two white
rums, kind of a split base of

those two.
And like the number of times

people want to know, I thought
this was supposed to be red and

frozen or like people just the
word is not out nearly as much

as we think it is.
Yes, there is absolutely a class

of consumer that is attuned to
this and is paying attention to

this, but I think as well.
It's like it is the fine details

of what make the magic in a
drink in a way.

And so to me, I think you know,
and this is hard your question

about drinks at scale and you
know you can get rain me back in

from here.
Is that what I find in a class

which is different than in a
high volume bar, but to try to

find the time to tell people why
it's important that we are

making this drink the way we
are.

Why these three ingredients in
this proportion went into this

glass And there's and there's a
fourth one or whatever the way

you you present it, The magic
really is in that that moment in

terms of telling somebody why
they should be interested or why

you think they should be
interested in a drink.

And so I think it's this thing
of like presentation and

complexity equals
thoughtfulness.

There's a, a group called Roads
and Kingdoms, and they have a,

they have books on culinary
cultures of Spain, Italy, and

Japan.
And anyways, they say that in

there's a sushi chef, I believe
in Japan who says that American

cuisine often has a tradition of
adding things like addition

equals luxury.
And in Japanese culture, luxury

equals subtraction.
And that we are going to pay the

utmost attention to these things
that, you know, you can go to

these cocktail bars in Japan
were like, they make 3 drinks

and they've been making the same
33 drinks for 30 years, but

they're getting better and
better at it all the time.

That doesn't have to be the way,
but I think we can learn

something from that.
In terms of how you make a

daiquiri is really a reflection
of how you make any drink.

You know, can you bring the same
care and attention to the 100th

daiquiri that you've made as
opposed to your speciality

cocktails?
And so I do think there's a

craving for newness amongst
people.

And so I think part of the thing
about the classics is inviting

people back to take another
look.

You know, they are dependable.
But here is this little thing

where American consumers, we're
not tired of burgers or pizza,

but like here's the little thing
we do to make this hamburger, to

make this particular pizza
unique.

You know, you can do that by
adding a whole bunch of

ingredients or there's a simple
thing you do that kind of

changes the texture, the
temperature of the food,

etcetera.
That's a fantastic point.

There's a lot to unpack on what
you said because it's it's funny

because I'm reading a book that
an Italian chef friend of mine

recommended, which is like, it's
basically like AI think after

this book is like it's basically
going to hell for an Italian

because it's called Italian
cuisine doesn't exist and it's

written in Italian by an Italian
now.

And what is interesting about
this and now I'm going to get

death threats from my Italian
friends.

But what they say and it's
connected to what you're saying

about the American culture,
about the abundance of

ingredients, is that a lot of
the Italian dishes, which, you

know, all the American Italian
versions of it, you know, in

Italy there's, you know, seen as
sins because it was like they

messed it up, you know, But
actually many of the things were

invented even by the American
Italian community back in the

States and then brought back
home, you know, and then re

reviewed.
So it's kind of like a mix of

what you were saying about
American culture and Japanese

culture, because on the American
side of things, like the Italian

American or American American
Italian, I would want to call

it, they were mainly poor people
that never really had meat.

You know they would have meat,
if any, once a year.

So when they came to the States,
there was this abundance and

they could have finally, finally
have beef.

So that's where the the
spaghetti meatballs come from.

You know, that is like finally
going to have meat.

So let's put them in the pasta.
You know, same thing with pizza

ingredients and, and all these
kind of things.

Then in Italy, like they got
kind of like, OK, let's bring it

back to, you know, to the basics
because we don't want all these

abundance of things.
But what is interesting is that

there is also a lot of debunking
to to be done because a lot of

these things like then about
these dishes that we claim are

150 years old, they're not
actually 150 years old.

They are 60 years old or 50
years old.

You know, So I think it's the
same thing with cocktail

culture.
Maybe my grandfather and my

grandmother, they were doing
some of these dishes, but my

great grandfather and my great,
great grandfather, they never

tried them because they didn't
exist, you know, So there is a

lot of like knowledge that gets
lost through the generations and

then you tend to assume things
now.

So I think it's very similar to
cocktail couches.

Like based on what you were
saying is that if you say go the

old, old school cocktail books,
you know, the 1 from 150 years

ago because of prohibition,
because of things that there was

a kind of like death of the
cocktail until the rebirth in

90s probably, you know, like
80s, nineties, you know, So

there is that kind of thing that
a lot of the stuff that is seen

as super old school, actually
it's not really old school is

like it, you know, it was
rediscovered, I don't know, like

40-30 years old years ago.
And also it's very interesting

what people assume.
It's kind of like boring and

let's stop doing this because
people are not looking for it.

It's a little bit like similar
to what, you know, here in

Prague, for example, there's the
typical Czech pub, which is

basically a restaurant.
You know, they do their goulash

and you know, it's Vichkova and
the duck and the pork me and so

on.
But every time I go to a

restaurant like this, you know,
like there are some places that

are really proper traditional
and they do a great 1, you know,

it's a great goulash.
But then some of them they want

to snake in the the salmon steak
and the burger and all these

other things that are trending.
But I'm not coming there, you

know, I'm coming there for beer
and some meaty kind of like

food, You know, why do you have
to upgrade yourself with

something and then maybe you'll
mess up the goulash.

There's tons of places where I
can have a great burger.

So then you end up not making a
nice burger and not making a

nice goulash.
And then you become being nor

mean or fish.
And then you end up losing

clients you know, rather than
sticking to a proper thing that

you can master.
There's so many establishments

out there that, you know, I
mean, people have to do what

they want to do.
But yeah, I think something some

kind of focus, right?
Like I remember reading years

ago in my more business
strategic moment was this quote

from one of the IKEA executives.
So take this for whatever you

will, but he basically said
every interaction that a

customer has with your business
is either positive or or

negative, you know, and so I
think this idea that this is for

every restaurateur to kind of
think about on their mind.

But it's like, if, if this dish
is great and this dish is only

OK, why is it on the menu?
And so I think or sometimes what

I think about part of my little
mission right now is, you know,

your restaurant is known for
great food.

And yet if if you order and old
fashioned again, for lack of a

better reference, you can see
the bartender kind of look at a

puzzled way and like they're
going to go figure it out, but

they don't really know what
they're doing.

And like the proper answer is, I
like, we don't know how to do

that.
Or, or you, you invest the time

and the energy into it.
So, you know, not everybody has

to care about the same things.
And that is one of my things I

always have to watch for me is
like, I think people love

working with me because of how
much energy I bring to things.

But at times that level of
enthusiasm isn't for everybody

and that's fine, you know, so,
so not everything has to be

about pinnacle level daiquiris,
old fashions, whatever.

But I think if somebody said,
hey, do you want to go out for

some ordinary food, I'd be like,
no, I really don't.

But for somebody else, they
don't care, you know.

So I guess it's just to realize
that of course they're the

levels of people out there who
aren't interested in that and

that's fine.
But I think for some people it's

also they have to be shown the
exact that exists.

So the one other thing I'll
throw later on to this that I

think about with respect to the
cocktail world, and this is

certainly not true in Italy,
although the inspiration was

Italy.
You know, Howard Schultz of

Starbucks likes to say, or you
know, formerly of Starbucks, you

know, the the guy who brought
him to where they reached is

that he reminds us that
speciality coffee culture didn't

exist in the US before Starbucks
and it was time that he spent in

Milan that kind of inspired
that.

But there's a whole segment of
people out there who either

didn't drink coffee or drink
instant coffee.

And as they got introduced to
the idea of the flavor of of of

coffee and the coffee shop
experience, that is a whole

market that did not exist 40
years ago.

And I think that's part of it.
Like sometimes he'll, he would

call people who don't drink
coffee, yet you would refer to

them as pre caffeinated.
And I, I think about that when I

see someone who's like, oh, I'm
not really a cocktail person,

have a proper drink because they
have an idea like this is going

to be boozy, it's going to be
too sweet, blah, blah, blah.

You know, they had bad ones.
That is kind of an eye opening

moment right there.
But at times they need a server,

a bartender to guide them
through there because otherwise

they just assume it's not their
thing.

They have stories they tell
themselves about what a cocktail

is, and I can show them plenty
of what they're thinking of.

Those still exist, but it's like
this is not what you think.

We always talk about consumer
centricity or customer

centricity, you know, like
about, OK, like we know we need

to think of customers and so on.
But I think like, that sometimes

is also lacking in bars now
because it's like, I'm a

bartender and I want to make the
best.

And then I'm not kind of like
willing to listen to who I have

in front of me because I've no
idea if you were sitting at the

bar.
I have no idea who you are, you

know, like, I don't know if you
were a cocktail geek.

If you are, you know, I could
probably spot it from some

questions, but it's difficult to
to understand what's, what's the

level of this person in front of
me, You know, like, do they know

anything about cocktail?
Are they super entry level?

And probably by having a more
honest kind of conversation from

a consumer perspective, there's
always this kind of like body

armor that you have to put it
put on when you enter a cocktail

bar.
Like now I need to look like a

proper cocktail guy because
otherwise I look like an idiot

here because they're, they all,
they all super geeky.

But I'm pretty sure I've never
done that.

And I'll probably start doing
this.

You know, if you browse the
tables, I would assume that, you

know, 80 percent, 70% of the
people, they don't know much

about cocktails.
I assume I'm the idiot that

doesn't know anything about
cocktail.

And I entered this kind of like
dungeon of professionals,

whether they are behind the bar
or on the other side of the bar.

But actually, like, we could
have a proper more honest

conversation and say, look, you
know, I know nothing about

cocktails.
I usually drink beer.

What do you recommend?
You know, what can I start from?

OK.
And then maybe could be from a

taste profile perspective, from
a category perspective.

And then it would be an
evolution rather than, OK,

let's, you know, fake it until
you make it kind of kind of

approach fake being a cocktail
drinker until you actually

understand it.
And then you, you can actually

claim that, well, what, what,
what do you think about this?

Yeah.
So for an outside analogy to

completely echo you.
And then I know we wanted to

talk about menus, so maybe we
can jump into that a little bit.

I think about sometimes being at
like an art gallery and and like

a kind docent who's working in
that art gallery comes up and

they say, look, you're looking
at a piece and they go, let me

know if you have any questions.
And one, I'm there, I'm excited,

but you're like, I don't even
know what the questions are,

right.
Or I was terrible in accounting.

And I still remember my
professor, Steve Klein saying,

is there any questions?
I'm like, I wouldn't even know

what to ask right now.
So I think bars have to square

themselves with looking at their
menus and saying, who did I

write this menu for?
And so I think one of the big

things for me is, is that if
you're using Cokie Americana,

lovely Italian bitter fortified
wine out there, this is

anecdotal still from like the
Midwestern market where I

primarily work.
But it's a, it's a, I've worked

with thousands of people at this
point in time.

And I can tell you that 96 1/2
percent of the people who I've

worked with would have no idea
what Cokie Americano is.

You know, or I can tell you on
the other end of things that

people have such strong feelings
about certain spirits like gin

or like to our mutual friend
Nikola Oleanes, people have very

strong feelings about Fernet
Branca.

Now, how these things get woven
into cocktails.

Here's something I I think and I
think get get begins to get us

into the idea of the menu.
There's a line I love from a

book I've read called The
customer is not Always right,

but the customer is always the
customer.

And I like this idea that people
think, oh, I don't like gin and

I'm here to tell people out
there and yes, I'm talking to

you, whoever you are listening
to this, that I don't think that

they have a problem with gin.
I think they have a problem with

gin presented certain ways.
So I think that and whether

that's whiskey, whatever I can
make 98% of people who don't

love whiskey in their mind
because they've only had it neat

or in an old fashioned love it
when I put it in whiskey sour,

right?
A martini might be too boozy for

you, but if if I put this in a
gimlet or a gin gin mule, you're

going to be like, this is
incredible.

So to kind of begin to wade into
menus a little bit.

I was at a restaurant one time
and I had this realization.

I was looking at the food menu
and there's a restaurant with

good cocktails and good food.
And I'm looking at the food menu

and there's the salad section,
the enchilada section, the

sandwiches, the pizzas they
have, etcetera.

It's all broken out in little
descriptions and names and all

these things and OK, and there
they are.

I turn on the other side of
things and there's all the

cocktails.
Now, first thing is the

cocktails cost roughly about
what most of the basic entrees

or dishes cost.
So you're going to pay about the

same amount for a drink as you
are for food.

There is not four or five
sections of cocktails, there is

one section.
And so my first thing is that

like a martini and a Margarita
do not taste anything alike or

or a martini and a gin gin mule
do not taste.

They both have gin in them and
they're right next to each

other.
And what makes me angry at a

restaurant like this is they
have all these specialty

cocktails and the names are just
whatever.

They're very colorful and
they're fun.

And then they list out seven or
eight ingredients in me as the

cocktail geek.
I know three of them or four of

them, and I promise you the lay
person might know one of them.

So you have what's probably a
Moscow Mule style riff right

next to a Martini style riff.
And it's like, why don't you

just figure out what all this is
right here?

At least if they were broken out
into boozy, you know, abrasive,

you know, juicy, refreshing.
I think bars respectfully need

to play to a lower common
denominator of customer

knowledge than they do when you
get the cocktail geeks that come

in.
You mean you want to be able to

have those conversations?
You want to be able to show

them, hey, we thought about
what's going into these, but I

promise you, the average person
has no clue what in the heck you

were talking about.
South giving them flavor profile

descriptions or I love there's a
question from this bar, The

Office in Chicago.
One of the questions they ask in

their classic forward bar The
Office is if you could have this

drink right now anywhere in the
world, where would you like to

have it?
And you're going to get the same

7 or 8 answers, right?
You know, it's going to be the

beach or a winter, the cabin or
a lake house.

But that immediately puts you in
a state of mind for where they

want to be.
And so I think with these things

we can help guide them in the
right direction.

So I just think that, you know,
for those who are on the Ferris

wheel of chasing to be on A50
best bar list, I can't help you

because you know, there's a game
to be played and you can figure

that out.
But on that list, so many people

are coming there because you're
on the list.

And I promise you, most of them
respectfully have no clue what

they're doing.
And so they're going to get a

panic order.
They see Margarita and they're

going to order it without even
still conceptualizing what

you're trying to sell them.
Anyways, that's that's my rant.

That's all for today's My Fair
Drinks podcast.

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