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Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode three sixty seven of the Pilot the Pilot podcast takes off now. Moving your airplane shouldn't be a struggle. There's a better way to tow, plain and simple. The aero tow t two is designed to tow tail draggers and medium twin sized engines up to 15,000 pounds. Whether you need to maneuver your personal aircraft or entire fleet in and out of tight hangar spaces, the t two is the right tug for the job.
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Speaker 1:I've been walking that flight line for years now, and every summer, there's something that stops me. This year was my kid. Textron Aviation had a one eighty two open at their booth, then he climbed up into the left seat for the first time. Hands on the yoke, feet nowhere near the rudders, and the grin on that kid's face. The sales guy took one look and said, well, you know you have to buy one now, and they're not wrong.
Speaker 1:I just might have to buy one. I also got to see the Denali in person, checked out the new Pipistral Voyager, and grabbed a Hangar 22 coffee while their team walked me through how straightforward the step up is. One eighty two to two zero six, piston to turboprop, turboprop to a jet. There's a reason Textron Aviation has been putting people in the air generation after generation. Learn more about the exciting innovations at Textron Aviation today.
Speaker 1:Just go to txtav.com. That's txtav.com. Did you know that eleven percent of accidents happen while taxiing? A Vemco insurance company believes education and awareness make a real difference, which is why they support safety programs and reward pilots who stay sharp. Pilot to Pilot podcast listeners can save 5%.
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Speaker 2:My name is Mark Woglom, and I am an aviation enthusiast who got into it by virtue of being in the commercial construction business in the Northeast.
Speaker 1:Aviation, what is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot podcast. Have you ever just thought to yourself and been like, man, I would love to buy an airplane, but I just don't know how. I don't know what what the mindset is, how the finances work, operating costs, hangars, just what do I do? What airplanes are right for me?
Speaker 1:Well, Mark is here to talk about buying and selling airplanes and we say why is he gonna talk about that? What what makes him worth listening to? He has had 12 airplanes in his career. So he knows a thing or two about buying and selling airplanes and I it was really interesting to talk to him about how his mission has changed. Make sure you're not playing poor, make sure you can afford it, a stop is not the end of the world, and so much more.
Speaker 1:So, Mark, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. I hope you're really enjoying the CJ three. It sounds awesome and I would love a ride if you ever come to North Carolina. But just kidding.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you. If you're new to the podcast and if you're new to this channel, check out our website podsbitehq.com, especially go to .com/mag where we have the best magazine in the business. We have volume one, we have volume two, and volume three working on volume four. So which is crazy to think we're already getting into the fourth magazine. Thank you so much for buying it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing it. It is a coffee table book that you get every four every three months. I can't do math. But aviation, I hope you're having a great day. Without any further ado, here's Mark.
Speaker 1:Mark, what's going on, man? Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi, Justin. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's good to have you on. I'm excited to talk with you today. Buying an airplane and one of that what I've looked at with the brief that I have right here is you have owned a lot of airplanes. And one thing I feel like you've come out to is that there is no perfect airplane.
Speaker 1:Right? And your mission can change and things can change and I feel like it could just be very overwhelming to to make sure you're buying the right plane. Right? It's like, there's so many options. Like, how do you know?
Speaker 1:And then also, you can't afford every airplane. Least not everyone can afford every airplane. Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. You know, I I think you hit it exactly on the head. There is no such thing as the perfect airplane. And everything in an airplane is a series of trade offs. And, you know, the the cost is one of them and how they function and how what features they have.
Speaker 2:It's all it's all part of trying to find the right fit for you. And, you know, to this day, I'm still on that quest to always find the perfect plane, but I now know there is no such thing.
Speaker 1:Why why do you think there isn't a perfect plane? Why can't you today just be like, look, I want this wing. I want this this this, and they're like, why why don't they make that? Is it just the fact that it's good enough for most people so they keep it like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure. I mean, it would be nice if you could custom order a paint plane exactly the way you wanted it, then I certainly think I could get it closer to your needs. Yeah. But the reality of is these manufacturers have to build planes that, you know, have have a lot of limitations on them.
Speaker 2:So Yep. You know, I'm a real believer in in trying to determine what your mission is. And from there, just trying to find the right fit for you. And, you know, I think starting with the financial aspect is certainly a big component of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, before we kinda break into, you know, finding your airplane or or talking all of that, we're gonna talk about your your quest to becoming a pilot. You mentioned it was commercial construction in the Northeast. When you're a kid, was it something you wanted to do or is it truly just, you know, I have a little money now, I'm gonna go truck flying?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it it was more the latter. You know, I was pretty involved in my business. I was about 35 years old in the year 2000. Our business was growing.
Speaker 2:We were doing work, you know, several hours drive from home. And I just sort of thought, okay. Wouldn't it be great if I learned to fly and could fly to some of these? And I started out in a small flight school that had a series of one seventy twos, and those were all various degrees of disrepair. All of them had different avionics.
Speaker 2:It was really before the advent of of moving maps and some of the modern avionics we have today, and I found it I found it really challenging to jump between all those different planes. So right off the bat, I went and bought a brand new Cessna one eighty two as my means of learning to fly. And once I had that, I really felt that I could know my plane and learn to fly in that.
Speaker 1:Was that so you knew you wanted to have your own plane, you had a mission, you wanted to fly? Was it like out of pure want, or was it kind of financial? Like, hey, actually makes more sense if I'm using my own plane to fly, and it might be come out to be a little cheaper for the training.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I I think you're always trying to justify the expense of an airplane. Yeah. And I could afford to buy a new one eighty two, and I liked the idea that it had that it was new. I didn't have to question the condition of it.
Speaker 2:You know, I remember going out to the Cessna factory with my instructor and picking it up, flying it part of the way home with him. And it it was exciting. And like I say, it was the one of the first planes that have a had a moving map on it and at least for that size airplane. And it made it so much easier for me to be able to learn in something that was the same avionics I got in the plane every time. Because the avionics are a challenging part of learning to fly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's one thing that that Garmin has done so well now. And it's you got the g 1,000, you got the g 3,000, g 5,000. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've flown a Latitude at a previous company, have a lot of time in a g 5,000 and sitting in a g 1,000 aircraft, I'm like, oh wow, this is like the exact same thing. I could figure this out pretty fast. You know? I'm sure what kind of train I mean, obviously, you go from g 1,000 to g 5,000, there are a lot more buttons. But I mean, the the logic overall is the same.
Speaker 1:So you feel comfortable in the seat, you know. It's not as overwhelming as you would think.
Speaker 2:That's right. You know, I when my my second plane was a SR 22. So, I mean, I didn't get to I didn't get the Garmin till a few planes down. You know, at the time, Bendix King was probably one of the leaders of the industry and, you know, then Cirrus, when they first came out, had Avadine equipment. But, you know, that was at that stage, things were well, actually, didn't even have Avadine equipment when I first bought the SR 22 because I bought a new one of those as well.
Speaker 2:You know, those was more of a six pack. And Yeah. Yep. But it was you know, each one has been an evolution and no question, the avionics have come a long way in the twenty five years I've been flying.
Speaker 1:Now, when you bought the one eighty two, in your mind, did you think this was gonna be a forever plane? Did you have any idea that this was kinda gonna start the process of like a multi plane plane career?
Speaker 2:Well, I certainly had no idea that I would ever end up where I ended up. That's for sure in a in a lot of ways. I'm somebody who kind of always is seeking the next thing. So I guess in the back of my mind, I knew that I might go to something else. But, you know, at the time that I bought the one eighty two, that was there was a lot of airplane.
Speaker 2:Right? You know, if you're learning to fly and you got this brand new thing and it it was exciting for me and I got my instrument rating in it. And it it I think it was a great plane to start out in in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And when you first start, you know, so obviously you're, oh, we'll say a businessman coming into aviation. Was your did you think you really understood what you're getting into? Like, did you know that like, hey, private instrument commercial, you know, ATP? Or was it, I'm gonna go fly, I'm gonna go private just so I can make my life easier.
Speaker 1:And then you just fell in love with it and it kept building and building and building.
Speaker 2:Well, one of the advantages of having your own plane was that the training can go much faster, and I really devoted a lot of time in it. I think today, it takes you a little longer time, but it's you know, I I think the regulations are the same. You could solo in twenty hours and get your license in forty, and I I think I had my license in something just over forty. But I probably did that in six weeks if my recollection serves me. And so, you know, having a plane and access to the plane with that certainly makes it easier.
Speaker 2:Obviously, there's lots of different ways to go about But that for me, that made it easier because I was busy and I didn't have to schedule around other people. Could do it evenings or mornings or whenever it might be. So I went right at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's good. And you get your private, and you have the one eighty two. Yep. You mentioned you got your instrument in the 182.
Speaker 1:How long did you wait to get your instrument? Or was it once you had your private, you realized, oh, I can't fly all the time. I need this this IFR rating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So from from there, I I did pretty quickly jump right into the instruments. I I'm I'm certain that within a year, I'd have to go back and look that I had my instrument rating. I I will say almost for the first fifteen years of my flying, I will say that I never devoted the time that I have in recent years, and I would say that I was doing gentleman's IFR. I don't think I was ever really comfortable in IFR because I I never did enough flying and enough training where I could devote the time to our point where I really felt comfortable even though I had I did have the license, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that I mean, when you're using this for a business too, that kind of puts you up against a wall in a way. Right? So you're like, alright, I got my plane, I normally go fly, but the weather's a little bit worse today. And you're kind of going through the thought process, you're like, alright, think I can work.
Speaker 1:I think I can work. Go out to the airplane and then you start feeling uneasy and then you make the call to not go. But then that just delays you significantly. Right? Like, that's lost money, that's lost time, that's lost everything.
Speaker 1:Did you find it hard to say no on those flights and not be like, hey, I might just push myself a little bit now? Or was it pretty easy like, safety. I'll get there when I get there.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I've always taken the aviation from the standpoint of knowing my own limitations. Mhmm. And I think that I think that's probably the biggest key to safety. It's not the equipment.
Speaker 2:It's not the license you have, but it's it everybody has limitations on what they could and should do. And I think I was always good at that, and I often, very often, took a safety pilot with me or my instructor or something of that nature for for many years, honestly, because I I couldn't rely on being at a meeting based upon my own comfort level necessarily. Certainly, I went on my own when the weather was allowed it. But if there was any question, I always took somebody with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Mean, that definitely makes a tough one. I mean, obviously, sometimes you're just flying with your family. You're flying for fun.
Speaker 1:You're doing this. You can say no. It's easier to say no. You're like, I always go another day. Always go another week.
Speaker 1:But when when it comes down to I mean, you could have been the boss, but or another boss or a business deal. It's like, hey. We could sign the check today if you get here. You're like, oh, shoot. Let me hop my plane.
Speaker 1:It's like
Speaker 2:I've I've been able to avoid that urge throughout my flying career, and I'd recommend that anybody avoid that urge. No limitations.
Speaker 1:Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Whenever there's a decision to be made, I always like to think of it of how the NTSB would view the situation.
Speaker 1:So, like, start where the NTSB would look like, oh, yeah. That was a bad idea. It's a great
Speaker 2:way to look at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like the NTSB probably would not not like you making this decision. Let's Sure.
Speaker 2:I was just gonna read the report. Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, yeah, you mentioned that, you know, one eighty two SR 22. How many planes in general have you owned?
Speaker 2:I've owned about a dozen planes. I can go through the progression.
Speaker 1:I Yeah. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:I I I started with the one eighty two pretty quickly, but I can't I think it was a used one s r 22, but a very early model of it. I think it was a 2002 or something of that nature. From there, there was a guy who had a Baron that was in business that had a hangar adjacent to us. I was sort of enamored to that plane, and so I went and got the Baron, got my multi rating. Honestly, that's an example of where I bought a plane where I don't think I ever became really proficient in the plane.
Speaker 2:So I took a pilot with me a lot of the time and ultimately decided maybe that was too much plane for me. So I went to a a newer SR 22. The newer SR 22 had Avadine equipment in it. I don't remember what years these were. And then, of course, I thought, okay.
Speaker 2:That's not enough plane again. And so I bought a I bought a a Cessna four fourteen twin pressurized twin. Yeah. Ultimately, bought a Cheyenne two XL, which is a twin engine turboprop, larger, more capable. At that stage, I I I was still flying very conservatively, but I envisioned taking it south, going to Florida, that sort of thing from the Northeast, which I did some number of times, but not as many as I expected.
Speaker 2:From there, I went back to an SR 22, bought a brand new one. And believe it or not, we got rid of that for a short period of time. I didn't have a plane, and, we bought another SR 22 and, after that. And that was probably around 2015. And interestingly, I started taking more time down south in Florida.
Speaker 2:We bought a home down in Florida, and my wife didn't particularly enjoy the idea of flying down to Florida in an s r '22, but we did need the s r 22 for business. So for almost five years, I didn't step foot in it at that into that airplane, not not as a passenger, not as a pilot. I really took a five year hiatus. We retained the plane with a with a pilot who flew for business. And during the time of COVID, our business, for whatever reason, the work got closer to home.
Speaker 2:The plane wasn't flying much, and I said to our pilot, hey. Why don't you get me back up there? I'll go do some VFR flying. And and I really got the book. And that's when I I said, oh, I'm I'm back into this now.
Speaker 2:And I had more time on my hands. And at that stage, you know, I I I was in my mid fifties, and I said to my wife, I think I'd like to buy one of these s f fifties, be in a vision Cirrus Vision Jet.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I decided that I was going to go all in on my training in that s r 22 knowing that I was gonna have to be very proficient to get a type rating in the Vision Jet.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:so I bought the Vision Jet, which was a great experience.
Speaker 1:Was it a gen one?
Speaker 2:That one was a gen two.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That was a gen two plus. It wasn't that long ago. I think I bought that in 2023. And, you know, it it it's a great plane, and I think the type rating experience was wonderful for me because for the first time in my life, I learned the airplane. I learned the systems.
Speaker 2:I wanted to go into that type rating really knowing the plane. And while I didn't have as many much experiences, the people that were in my class with me during the type rating. They were all pro pilots of some sort. Mhmm. I I felt really proficient in terms of the systems knowledge and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:So I flew that plane for about a year. We went back to forth to Florida with it. My wife really enjoyed it, and I discovered that I'd you know, you can you can look at what a plane does, but really, we had to make a stop a lot of the time. So I said, oh, I wanna get some more range. So I bought a brand new TBM nine sixty.
Speaker 2:And that plane, when you go from a jet to a turboprop, you have a little more noise and a little more vibration. I found my wife didn't like it as much, and that plane was pretty new. And I knew that I could sell it quickly if I wanted to, and I said to my wife, why don't I for the similar money, can go buy a Citation m two. So I went and bought a used Citation m two, quickly sold the TBM, got back into a jet. And honestly, the m two had a little bit of the same shortcomings.
Speaker 2:We could almost always make it south to north, but usually couldn't make it north to
Speaker 1:south. And
Speaker 2:ultimately, I ended up with a c j three Citation c j three plus, which is my current plane that I have now. And most recently, about oh, I don't know, about six weeks ago, you can't really take the c j three out and fly around and go sightseeing, so I bought a Nikon a five Yeah. Which is a complete dichotomy from the c j three plus. So I I've I've got those two planes currently. So that's all of my list.
Speaker 2:So I've
Speaker 1:I think that
Speaker 2:That's how I know how to buy airplanes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think you know. I think you know a thing or two about buying airplanes. I think you have everyone's dream right now, you know. Like every plane you named off, like, oh, that'd be cool to fly.
Speaker 1:That'd be cool to fly. That'd cool to do. When you when you looked on the list, is there one, you know, maybe it was just like the time of your life, but is there one that you look back on like, I wish I never sold that or like, I wish I still had it or I wish I didn't buy that?
Speaker 2:You know, it's it's funny. I can look back on any of them. Even sitting here owning the planes I own, I say, do I have too much capital tied up in c j three plus and, you know, jeez, could I could I just deal with a stop? I mean, there's always I think I think, like I say, there's no perfect airplane. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And, you know, the to a large extent, the amount of money I'm I I don't fly for business anymore. I fly purely for personal purposes. And it's a it's a lot of capital to have tied up Yeah. For what is just a, you know, purely a personal airplane.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No. It definitely is. But I mean, if it can provide a benefit and two, if it is affordable and you can make it happen, then there's nothing nothing beats being able to fly from Yes.
Speaker 1:Wherever you live in the North down to sunny Florida with no stops. Yes.
Speaker 2:Affordable and afforded are two different things. But I'm probably closer to afforded.
Speaker 1:There you go. There's a lot of s r 22 in there. Is that just a plane that just like you always found yourself coming back to? Or is it something that you're like, oh, this one's just a little bit better. I think it can do the job that I needed to do.
Speaker 1:Or was it just I feel like this is the like, just coming back to it, you're like, this is my my go to. I'm gonna come back.
Speaker 2:You know, there's a reason that the Cirrus SR 22 is the most popular airplane that's sold out there. It's got a lot of things going for it. It's Yeah. It's, you know, it's got a lot of safety features, which passengers like even more so today in the modern ones with the Autoland. Obviously, it's got the parachute.
Speaker 2:It's reasonably economical. There's a wide range of economics in terms of what you can buy, an older one and newer one, and still have largely the same degree of capability and safety. But I think it's a plane that is extremely popular for a good reason, and I kept going back to it either for safety or economic reasons or or something of that nature. Yep. It's a great plane.
Speaker 1:When you look at the market now, you know, people I mean, me personally, like, I'm always like, oh, I wanted a one eighty two, I wanted this, I wanted that. But it's just like I can't fathom spending $200 on a one eighty two that was built in 1965, you know. But Sure. The market's there, people are buying them. Like that's obviously what the market is selling for those.
Speaker 1:But you, when you bought your brand new one eighty two, did you ever think that the market was gonna be what it is for a used one?
Speaker 2:Oh, no. I had no idea. I mean Yeah. You know, I mean, it's it's amazing to me how aircraft values have held up over the years. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Appreciate it. You know, a lot of people have sold planes for more than they bought them for, you know, over the recent years, which probably won't last forever. But there's not many this of that sort of product that you can have that has an engine in it that doesn't depreciate or at least recently hasn't depreciated.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which one of the, we'll say the low and slow ones has been your favorite? And I'm I'm guessing you said the Icon, so we can't say that Icon. But, of what you had previously, what was one of your favorite airplanes, necessarily? Not the fast and the and the sexiest ones.
Speaker 1:Like, not climbing up to the flight levels or doing that, but do you have a favorite other?
Speaker 2:Right. Well, I'm always a fan of the SR 22. You know, I I think that is probably one of the most you can fly it low and slow. Yeah. You can go places with it.
Speaker 2:You know, it's really just a a very capable airplane that is serves a wide variety of purposes. It's probably, you know, yeah, the one eighty two was low and slow. I don't think I've ever used any of my planes to go low and slow for the most part. I they were means to get from a to b with the exception of the a five.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And mentioned that you caught the bug later. Two part question. Do you wish you would have maybe put a little bit more time in to to fly and to to try to catch the bug at a younger age? Were you just like fully dedicated or was that just not really a thing that you could do with business and flying?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You you you know, I think to become totally passionate and dedicated in it, you you need to probably spend more time than people are able to spend. You know, I think to become really proficient, to really understand the IFR system, the air traffic control system, to understand your airplane, not just get in it, takes a lot of time. So, you know, hopefully, can recognize that and fly and again, fly within their limits. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure. I I wish I'd probably spent some more time and, you know, used my planes to a greater capability while I own them. But conversely, I didn't have a lot of time and I feel like I did it safely, which I think is more important than Yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah. Safety is the name of the game. Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Exactly. Yep.
Speaker 1:So we're moving on to kind of this layout that I have here, and it says find quote unquote the best plane. We mentioned earlier how there is no such perfect plane, but, let's just say, let's just do like an ongoing case study right now. I Sure. Come to you or we meet at a hangar and I'm like, hey, you know, my wife's telling me that we can finally buy an airplane and what what's your response to me? What are you gonna ask me?
Speaker 1:And like how what should I what should I look for and what should I do?
Speaker 2:So for for me, I sort of like to call it the three f's foxtrot. Yeah. Finances, features, and function. You know, obviously, you have to start with finances. I think everybody has a level of affordability in terms of a plane that they can look at, and I'd always recommend to people that you don't try to buy more plane than you truly can afford.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're if you're struggling to pay for a plane, I think you quickly lose enjoyment in it. So that's certainly a component. Features is is always a factor. What do you, you know, what do you want in this plane? Are you looking for an older plane?
Speaker 2:Do you want an autopilot in it? You know, are are you looking for certain safety features? Be they, you know, the Cirrus parachute or, you know, avionics that have safety features, you know, avionics moving maps. I mean, there's so many things that you can get in today's planes, be it a retrofit or not, that you, within the constraints of your finances, probably need to start to narrow down to the features that are most important to you. And to me, the most critical one is function, and that's I think mission is probably a better word for it.
Speaker 2:But how is that plane gonna function for the needs that you are pursuing in terms of, you know, how far will it go, how many people will it take, how many how much weight can you hold, what do we need to go on for runway? So analyzing your mission, I think, is a missing link in many people's, selection of airplanes.
Speaker 1:Now you mentioned, like, not buying too much of an airplane. That has to be way harder to say to someone not to do than being in the moment. Know, like you get really excited, you're like, oh my gosh, like, but if I did buy the bonanza, you know, I could fly to Chicago every once in while, I could go here. But you know, it's $80.50 whatever more grand it is. How do you talk to someone and how do you kind of rationalize that and be like, alright, you know, like a a one seventy two actually is the perfect airplane for us.
Speaker 1:So our one eighty two is exactly what we need. Do you think that's difficult to do when you know you're like, hey, for 50 more grand, you know, I could just get this little sweet little thing over here and go fly that.
Speaker 2:Sure. I mean, that that's that's what gets people to go to the next airplane. You know? But a large to a large extent, I think that's it's still predicated on affordability. The question is, does the additional expenditure, both capital expenditure and ongoing expenditures warrant what you're getting for it?
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes I think people will pursue, oh, that you know, you know, I'd like to go to in my case, let's say, live in New England. I wanna go to Florida. I'd like to fly my plane to Florida a couple times a year. Yet, you know, the other 75 flights they're gonna make in the year are somewhere around the, you know, Northeast. Well, I probably would suggest that you don't go and look for the plane that is optimized to get to Florida.
Speaker 2:You know, it it the additional cost that you're gonna incur to
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Meet that small percentage of your mission probably isn't warranted. Of course, you know, everybody's decision making process here is their own. Right. But I I think some people really they want that plane to do everything, and they might get ahead of themselves on that.
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Speaker 1:They are the airline industry experts. Download your free copy of the case study allworthairline.com/justin. That's allworthairline.com/justin. Yeah. And we we talked about finances a couple times, But talk about the process, know, whether it's buying outright in cash, is that recommended or is it good to have some extra money laying around so the annual comes up and you're not fully all your cash isn't already into the airplane or maybe you wanna put avionics or leather seats.
Speaker 1:But talk about financing, talk about find just getting an airplane and paying for it.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, you you know, I think every airplane has a capital cost. And whether you finance it or whether that money sits in the bank earning money, there is a cost of money. So, you know, if if you let's say you had $200,000 and you're thinking of buying a plane, if that $200,000 sit in in a bank or a brokerage account, you're gonna earn a return on that money. So you're gonna forego that return in exchange for an airplane.
Speaker 2:Conversely, if you decide I would rather borrow the money or it'd it's more affordable because you can borrow the money and you know that you have the the ongoing income to pay that loan amount, then you borrow the money. But either way, there's a cost of money. So simplistically, I think the best way to look at this and just say to say, you know, given today's interest rates, you pick a number, say, 6% or 7% and say, alright. It's going to cost me roughly six or 7% to own a $200,000 airplane. So that's, you know, in in interest cost or loss of of income on the on the money sitting in a brokerage account.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those number that might numbers might be a little low. You wanna lean on the higher side if you're gonna finance and maybe a little lower side if you're gonna put your money in something safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But then I feel like everyone always forgets, you know, you get excited about buying an airplane, but they're like, alright. Well, I gotta get insurance. I gotta get a hangar. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I need to make sure I can afford my annual. I gotta set up I gotta figure out my hourly rate. What do you recommend for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what I recommend for that is is one, just pick pick your percentage of of for your capital cost and apply that to what you might spend, the range of what you might spend. Secondly, you gotta look at insurance. I tend to think when I spend a lot of time on aviation forums and I see people get what I think is overly concerned about insurance, you know, I think generally, an airplane that is on the lower cost end, I'll use 200,000 as the lower cost end, probably can be insured once you have experience in the plane and some time in the plane for something around 2% of the hull value. As the plane becomes more expensive, use the other end of the spectrum.
Speaker 2:It's a million dollar plane or a $2,000,000 plane. That number probably gets closer to 1%. And at least in terms of budgeting, I think those numbers are safe to apply for the initial idea of looking at a plane. And, yes, you might have to pay a premium in that first year until you gain experience in the plane, but my suggestion is don't worry about that first year's insurance. Just apply that to the capital cost.
Speaker 2:You know? If you're getting into a plane, that's a step up
Speaker 1:for you. You
Speaker 2:know, think of that as a one year expense part of buying it, just like a pre buy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When what do you think catches people off guard with finances and buying a plane? Is it truly, like, not preparing for an annual? Is it not setting money aside? What kind of gets people in the position where maybe they have too much money in the plane now and they're like, oh, crap.
Speaker 1:I might need to sell this.
Speaker 2:Well, I think if you do your preplanning, if you look at the capital cost, you look at the insurance cost, I can get into a little bit about how you can look at operating cost. Probably the biggest one that is difficult to nail down is maintenance costs. And that, you know, you can buy an s r 22 that can have a $50,000 annual, and you can buy an s r 22 that'll have a I don't know what the numbers are. I'm gonna show 10 $10,000 annual for picking a number off the top of my hat. To a large extent, if you had a $50,000 annual, it probably means that that plane had some deferred maintenance of some sort in it.
Speaker 2:You know? I think you have to spend some time on some aviation forums to get an idea. I think one of the best ways to do it is to try and call up a service center that specializes in the type of airplane that you're looking at and say, hey. Could you just give me some idea of what you've been seeing for annual inspection costs, maintenance costs for these range? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And get a range from them. And if you wanna be really careful, use the higher end of that range to make sure that you don't get in over your head. Like, you know, I think that's probably one of the best ways to do it and I think most maintenance facilities be happy to just share you share a range of what you might expect.
Speaker 1:What about operating costs?
Speaker 2:So for operating costs, I I think one of the best ways to do it I mean, obviously, fuel is probably the biggest operating cost in most airplanes. And there you know, today, you just have some wonderful tools of what it's going to cost you to fly your mission. And I think probably the best tool out there is ForeFlight Garmin Pilot for some planes, but I don't think Garmin has quite caught up to ForeFlight in terms of the number of the planes they have in the database. But a great way of doing it is to learn how to use ForeFlight, download the type of aircraft that you're interested in buying. If you were gonna say, I'm looking at an s r 22 and a one eighty two and a bonanza, then go and download those planes into ForeFlight and create some missions within that.
Speaker 2:I can talk more specifically about how you might do that. But run those missions and say, alright. How much is it costing me to actually make these flights? Yeah. Less so than thinking about cost per hour.
Speaker 2:A lot of people think in terms of cost per hour. Well, is that down low? Is that up high? You know, I I like to run the missions and say, okay. I'm gonna do on average, I'm gonna make this 300 mile flight.
Speaker 2:Some will be at 250. Some will be 500, But but I'm gonna throw 300 in there and I'm gonna make, you know, 50 of those a year on average. Hey, there's my fuel cost. Great way to do it. Great way to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was actually playing with Garmin Pilot. I am a I'm on team Garmin Pilot, so I highly recommend Garmin Pilot to anyone listening. Yes. But they do have a bunch of all pretty much all the profiles you can imagine.
Speaker 1:I was plugging a bunch of them in the other day. I was like, look, that's kinda cool. And I was doing the same thing. I was like, alright, I fly from North Carolina to, you know, the mountains. I fly to Ohio.
Speaker 1:I fly back Chicago. I fly wherever. It's like, oh, cool. That's that gives me a good idea of what to expect. So
Speaker 2:Yes. I I actually have both Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight. And and I'm because I'm such a Garmin fan from an avionics standpoint, you know, I think Garmin I think Garmin is catching up to four flight. I think they are missing some of the the features that are available for some of the higher end turbine planes, but I I think that'll come and they'll be a little more on the same end. But either either one, whichever one you're most familiar with is a great way of
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of running those running those missions.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Garminpa. Yeah. They they've done a great job. It's been it's been really cool to see and I think the UI that they have is really really awesome.
Speaker 1:I actually prefer it to ForeFlight now. I've made the switch a couple years ago and I just think it's just so simple to use and so easy to use.
Speaker 2:Both both spectacular programs
Speaker 1:these days. Mean, I can't imagine flying without one of them. Right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine doing your training back in two year two thousand with one of these? Know, I mean, you're
Speaker 2:pulling out all those performance charts Yeah. Trying to oh my goodness. What you know, everything you had to do to call and file a flight plan on may ever it just amazing amazing what those Yeah. Software packages do.
Speaker 1:The only thing that oh, keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Then I you know, I think you also have some ancillary costs. You've got to find out what it's gonna cost you to keep the plane at the airport you wanna keep it at it, be it a hanger or a tie down or whatever that might be. You might have to look up if you've got more modern avionics, some subscriptions to keep your avionics up to date, you know, maybe charts that wanna go on those avionics. Training, you certainly need to budget something for training.
Speaker 2:Taxes, know, depending on the jurisdiction that you're gonna keep the plane in. I think that those some of these things vary a lot, you know, hangar costs, taxes. Almost nobody can tell you that situation that's specific to your locale. And then probably need to budget something for some airport fees when you're landing and say, okay. I'm gonna, you know, have an overnight fee and, you know, ramp fees and landing fees and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Although I think that's in the grand scheme of things, that's a pretty small Right. Cost of that. And so, you know, my suggestion is that you sort of take some of these rules of thumb that I've given you. Try your best to determine what your annual maintenance costs and put them into a little spreadsheet and then put your three planes that you're considering and say, okay, you know, or five planes or however it might be and kinda look at those and say, can I can I can I afford to look at these planes further? Should I investigate these more in terms of what they might do?
Speaker 2:And, you know, you you probably can rule out a couple, if not most of them, pretty quickly just based on finances and your gut instinct. Yeah. But but once you kinda narrowed it down to a range, I I think you can start to now start to drill into more of the features and making real sure that that plane will meet your your functional goals, your mission.
Speaker 1:As someone who sold a lot of airplanes, you know, you've probably put money in to to see what gets the most value out of an airplane. Right? You're like, alright, I'll do leather seats, I'll do the engine, I'll do this, I'll do the propeller. Avionics, is there something that really kinda adds to the resale value that you'd recommend that's actually worth it? And then also, is there just something that most people don't think about that's like, no.
Speaker 1:100% upgrade this.
Speaker 2:You know, I I don't know that there's any one thing. I I think the rule of thumb is that you can expect an upgrade won't return all of your capital expenditure on that upgrade. So I think that upgrade needs to be important to you. I don't I don't certainly, it's I don't think it's an investment. You're but you're gonna depending on what it is, certainly, if it's an interior or paint, yeah, those are gonna make it those are gonna make it more valuable.
Speaker 2:Avionics are going to make it more valuable, but maybe you're gonna get 75% of your money back on it. You know? I mean, I just did that with my CJ three plus. I did some avionics changes, and I did a complete paint interior because I bought a plane that was a charter plane. So it now to me, it looks and feels like new even though the plane has 6,500 on it for 2016.
Speaker 1:What kind of avionics did you get?
Speaker 2:Well, I still have the g 3,000, but mine came with the the original g 3,000. And so I upgraded those boxes to the faster processors, and then I added the GWX 8,000, which is the radar that has a a scan. So, basically, it's you don't you don't have to touch the tilt or the gain or anything of that nature. It simply presents the weather without having to have a lot of radar knowledge. So I added that.
Speaker 2:I added CPDLC, which is pilot controller data link. So little features like that that that probably again, I don't expect to get my money back on those features, but they were things that I wanted to do. And I could afford them. I think that's that's every upgrade should be affordability should be a component.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A 100%. I mean, I got three thousand hours in a g 5,000. And toward the end of my career there, they started getting the auto radar. And I was like, oh, this is nice.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. No.
Speaker 2:It's it's amazing. Yeah. You know? But personally, I look at it and how often am I going and flying around thunderstorms for for my mission. It's all personal flying.
Speaker 2:So when there's a lot of thunderstorms, I say, hey, hon. How about we go tomorrow? You know? So there's there's a part of me says, why did I make that investment for the type of flying I do? You know?
Speaker 2:It's it's Yeah. But I like I like features, and and I could afford the features. Always We
Speaker 1:we all like features.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:We all wanna have a nice cockpit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, sometimes I think you let those features I I think at the end of the day, I'd much rather have the function than the features. You know? So there's a lot of things that people think they might need or want in a plane where if they fly without it, they probably should be just fine
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and getting good usefulness out of that plane. I I really think the the mission and the and the capability of the plane to meet your mission safely is is paramount in my opinion.
Speaker 1:When someone buys an airplane, do you think they should think of it as a forever airplane? Or should they have the attachment to it that this is what we need now, let's keep our mind open for later?
Speaker 2:I've never heard of a forever airplane. What's what's that? Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've never met an airplane I can't sell.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You you know, I I think I think a lot of people buy an airplane. You know, you you can make all the justification you want terms of how it's more efficient than the airlines and that sort of thing. And I think that's probably the case for some percentage of owners. But for most of us, it's a passion.
Speaker 2:You know? Mhmm. At the end of the day, I can probably get to my home in Sarasota from New Hampshire in not a lot different time than I can in my c j three. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I I might add a couple hours, but, you know, in fact, I can do it in less time than I can do it in a vision jet, for instance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it but it's the passion about it. So, you know, you have to be you have to wanna spend the money to invest in that passion, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:What made you choose the CJ three? Was it just affordability? It was kinda what worked best in your budget? Or was it gonna be,
Speaker 2:you know, it was it was
Speaker 1:always a perfect plan for situation?
Speaker 2:I've got very, very close to buying an older CJ two and doing the paint interior and putting the new Garmin STC for an all Garmin panel in that. I think that's a heck of a value in a in a jet airplane. You've got sort of a modern airplane that's well modern airframe that's well supported, and then you're putting all the modern Garmin avionics in it. And that would have met my mission. There's a part of me that wishes I'd done that, and I had, you know, x number of dollars back in the bank.
Speaker 2:This plane came up. I had an CJ two under agreement. I saw this plane that was what I thought was a pretty good value with a lot of hours on it, and I said, you know what? I'm just gonna go and do this. I don't know that there was a lot of logic to it because it's probably more plane than I need for my mission, but here I am.
Speaker 1:Here you are. And you love it? Are you glad you did it?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. I love the plane. And it's you know, to be able to fly from New Hampshire to Florida, which is our primary mission and land with 2,000 pounds of fuel in the tanks every time and not be worried. You know, in the m two, I would be, oh, I'm gonna be down to 800 pounds of fuel on the tanks and then do I, you know, to well, I wonder what ATC is gonna do to me. And you get down low and the turbines burn more fuel and, you know, it's Yeah.
Speaker 2:It just the the comfort of having sort of, at least for my purposes, unlimited payload and and fuel capacity for my mission is is good peace of mind.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure. A 100%. I mean, yeah, you never know. Like, I mean, you leave the Northeast to keep you low sometimes. It's like, well, this is not great.
Speaker 1:All the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or you go to South Florida. Same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You get vectored around thunderstorms. You get vectored around. You you have 10 RAs. Right?
Speaker 1:Or, you know, it's
Speaker 2:just Exactly.
Speaker 1:You never know what's gonna happen. So you definitely don't wanna be skimping those flights. Or they're gonna throw you out of the ocean. You're like, oh, I don't like this. I don't like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm a real believer in excess fuel reserve.
Speaker 1:Yep. What are some things you should avoid? You know, we talked a lot about like what you should do, what you should get, what you should look into. And we did kind of mention a little bit of, you know, maybe not enough. Don't buy too much of an airplane or not every feature could be worth it.
Speaker 1:Like you said, like, you might be able to fly a plane perfectly fine without that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I I think I think there's a number of things to avoid. I like to say try to avoid anecdotal anecdotal owner reports. I think every owner of an airplane is passionate about passionate about the decision they made. And if you go on to the Cirrus forum, they're going to tell you that, you know, the Cirrus is the best plane.
Speaker 2:And if you go on Beach Talk, they're gonna tell you Bonanza is the best plane.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I can go on and on with that. So, you know, and I think you have to be a little bit skeptical sometimes of what an owner will say the plane will do. You know, when I like to run missions through ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot, such that I let let me take a step back in a second, tell you what I how I run those missions. And the way I do that is I I establish what I call a normalized fuel reserve. So I take every plane I'm considering or comparing, and I put a 200 nautical mile trip into into the whatever flight planning software I'm using.
Speaker 2:And I say, okay. However much fuel it took me to to go from, you know, one airport to the other airport that's 200 miles away is what I'm gonna use for a good, comfortable VFR weather conditions reserve. And I find that that takes away a lot of the ambiguity that can come with trying to read what owners say that you can land with for reserve or what manufacturers publish for range. You know, some of these things are kind of embellished in terms of how they get presented to you. Whereas if you do this, if you normalize that reserve and use, you know, use whatever mileage you want, but I like the 200, you've really said, okay.
Speaker 2:From there, you can run submissions and say, how far will this plane go with that specific reserve? And now you're now you're comparing them on what I think is a more apples to apples basis. And that helps you to avoid the forum rumors about how far a plane will go or even manufacturers marketing claims. You know, it it's so easy to look at a manufacturer's marketing claim that, oh, this plane will go x number of miles. Well, maybe.
Speaker 2:If you slow it way down and you don't load the plane up and you have
Speaker 1:Crazy tailwind.
Speaker 2:All all the, you know, all the right, yeah, temperature temperature conditions and, yeah, they don't normally include a tailwind. But, you know, if you have a headwind, you can forget it. And the reality of it is people wanna fly their planes probably close to the max cruise speed, so I compare them at that. And and I try to compare them with a a payload, meaning payload being the amount of people and bags that will go into the plane that I think I'm really gonna use on a regular basis. And that takes away manufacturers' marketing claims, broker bias.
Speaker 2:I think there's definitely a place for brokers in the marketplace, but they can tend to be biased towards a specific plane that they're most familiar with. Forum rumors, anecdotal owner reports. I think those are those are the big things that I think you you you wanna avoid Yeah. Putting too much weight on those items.
Speaker 1:You know, it says here in the summary, it says, avoid the fourth f. We talked about the three f's. What's the fourth f?
Speaker 2:Oh, f, I bought the wrong plane. You know, I think if you do your homework and and honestly, there's been a learning curve for me because I've, you know, in the in the past five years now, I've been through four expensive airplanes. Yeah. You know, not that I necessarily made a mistake, but I think each one, particularly in the early ones, I think I probably had an expectation that it would do a little bit more than you think you're gonna do. You know, I I my recollection is my Vision Jet had a a, you know, a full fuel payload of, you know, I think it was around 400 pounds, 425 pounds, which is pretty light.
Speaker 2:You know, if you put two people and some bags in there, you're you're you're pretty much there. And I think you I think people don't you know, I I always I'm same thing when you're comparing these planes. I think the best thing to do is go and determine an empty weight by looking at what I do is I go on to something like controller or trade a plane, and I type in empty weight. And I try to find a plane so that I get put a real live empty weight in there as opposed to, again, as opposed to manufacturer's literature, which may well be an unequipped plane, which very few few people buy. So if you can figure out that mission and will the plane really meet your mission by truly understanding, you know, the the what it will do with the weights that you're going to carry, how far will it go at the speeds you wanna fly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you really understand that. And I'll I'm gonna give one other piece of advice in terms of putting that into the flight planning software. I don't know how Garmin works, but I know in ForeFlight, if you spin the day if you're doing it in the flight planning page and you spin the date forward, it will give you the historical wins. So rather than looking at it, John, on that given day that you might be looking, you can now look at those historical winds for your mission and see, okay, historically, during in January when I'm flying to Florida, these are what my headwinds and tailwinds are gonna be on each on each leg of that flight.
Speaker 2:Lot to be learned from really inputting the various planes into those flight planning software.
Speaker 1:Do you think the c j three is your last plane, or you think you could find yourself on another one?
Speaker 2:The c j three is icon? I think it's it's sort of, you know, there's only a few planes. I'm I'm one of the extremely lucky people who is able to get to that level of flying as a private pilot in their career. But conversely, I'm spending a lot of money to do that. I think at some juncture, I'll probably take a step back.
Speaker 2:You know, I I certainly will not never buy a plane that is more expensive. You can't get much more capable. I think, you know, there's there's a couple out there that perhaps some greater capabilities. But, yeah, I think I think I'll go to something simpler. And, you know, as I get older, my ability to maintain the same level of proficiency and that sort of thing is probably gonna be, you know, might be less prominent, if you will.
Speaker 2:And, you know, maybe maybe I wanna go back to something as a parachute or Autoland or something of that nature. Because I think your passengers comfort level of flying in the plane should be an important consideration.
Speaker 1:Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, let's say for me, I got a wife and a four year old. If they hate to go fly in the airplane, I buy them.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go fly the airplane. I'm probably gonna sell it. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Think I I think pilots tend to, you know, they tend to get passionate about the aviation piece of it. But I think in my case, going from the jet to the turboprop was a good example where my wife said, oh, I I don't like wearing this more. You know, we were we were a in the ear headset as opposed to over the ear. And she said, hate wearing this thing.
Speaker 2:And, you know, it's a that a little thing like that can really make it a big difference. So you really should think about your passengers, particularly your spouse or somebody who's gonna fly with you regularly.
Speaker 1:I got one final question. Sure. Let's just say it's the new per like me, let's go back to me. I I wanna buy an airplane, but like I love the bonanza. I love the two zero six, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:But I don't have the money to afford it, you know, but I could buy a one seventy two. I could buy whatever. Enter that like kind of entry level airplane. Do you think it's worth for them to kind of just be like, hey, I know you want a bonanza or I know you want this, but just go buy the airplane you can afford now. Or do think it's worth to be like, hey, just keep saving and then buy the plane you want?
Speaker 2:You know, I think that's a a highly personal choice Yeah. In terms of whether you wanna try and rent something or something of that nature. You know, I enjoy owning my own airplane. I enjoy getting in there and knowing where everything was put when I got into it last. I enjoyed the flexibility of of knowing where it sits, you know, what how much fuel I left in it, all of those things.
Speaker 2:Personally, I would rather have less airplane and be able to fly it more often and know what I was expecting. And at the end of the day, you know, more airplane usually means more range or something. If you really love to fly, a stop is not the end of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And also, feel like one thing, if you keep putting it off, like, I wanna buy the bonanza. I wanna buy the bonanza.
Speaker 1:You're probably never gonna buy the airplane. Right? Life always gets in the way. Something you have a kid, you you get a I mean, maybe not a promotion, but you get you get you lose your job or something else comes up, you know, your money goes elsewhere. So if you have the the means and the want, maybe it's best to to actually just go do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I I again, that's highly, you know Yeah. I still recommend never get plane poor. You know? My my parents always told me don't get house poor.
Speaker 2:Yep. I
Speaker 1:It's a real thing.
Speaker 2:I did okay with that. You know? And I I think I think happiness in life can be living within your means. And, you know, so I would I would buy a plane. I would make affordability a very top priority and not try and stretch it.
Speaker 2:That's what I would do.
Speaker 1:Words of wisdom. I appreciate it, Mark. Thank you so much for coming on and and sharing your your experience, you know. Thank Buying buying and selling. You're still selling 11 airplanes and having 12 airplanes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A future sale on the horizon. You never know. If anyone's interested in the market for a c j three, you got one that's gonna be There you go. At some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, thanks very much for the the opportunity to come on here.
Speaker 1:That's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. I need to run to go catch a flight. So this intro and the ending is gonna be very, very quick. I hope you're having a great day.
Speaker 1:And as always, happy flying. The Pilot to Pilot podcast is brought to you by ground school from the finer points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.