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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Cal: Welcome to the Grazing
Grass Podcast Episode 94.
Track 1: be prepared.
read as much as you can, shadow
somebody that you think is doing
a good job for you , take courses
Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass
Podcast, helping grass farmers learn from
grass farmers, and every episode features
a grass farmer and their operation.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
On today's episode, we have Lee Sexton
of Sexton Grazing and Consulting.
Lee is from Canada, and he is
a strong advocate of targeted
grazing to control unwanted
vegetation and improve soil health.
Lee emphasizes the power of
continuous learning and the
impact of shared knowledge
Today, Lee shares his grazing journey,
exploring the experiences from shepherding
to using tech for shared knowledge.
Before we talk to Lee, 10 seconds about
my farm and as the patterns been for
the last few weeks, we're going to talk
about the podcast, but not this podcast.
Last year in early 2023, I
tried to experiment called
the Grass Farmer Book Club.
The approach was simple.
Yeah, effective.
By committing to read 10 pages a day for
5 days each week, we gradually expand our
understanding and expertise in grazing.
Last year I tried it.
I did not like my voice
being the only voice on it.
So after a few weeks, I stopped that
experiment, but now we're revisiting it.
Because I like the idea of the
book club structure through a
podcast for shared learning.
If that appeals to you and you would
be interested in being a guest reader
on the podcast with me, would you
go over to thegrassfarmerbookclub.
com and click on be our
guest and fill out the form.
Give me a little bit of information
and I'll be in contact with you.
Enough about the new experiment.
Let's talk to Lee.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Lee, we want to
welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast.
We're excited you're here today.
Track 1: Thanks, Cal.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm really glad you
reached out.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
well, thank you Lee.
To get started, can you tell us a little
bit about yourself and your operation?
Track 1: Uh, currently I
guess our operation is, uh.
Kind of a twofold operation.
We have a grass-based operation.
We do yearling cattle, uh, mostly,
uh, rotational grazing and, uh,
side business that goes on with, uh,
targeted grazing business as well.
So I guess I'm away doing targeted
grazing in the summer at times.
And, uh, when I'm away, I
have my grandkids hired to
look after the rotations.
Uh, they usually do a three day move when
I'm home, I'll do anywhere from a one to
a three day, depending on what's going on.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: So are
you buying buying those cows in the
spring and selling them in the fall?
Track 1: So we have both,
uh, custom people that pay
and, uh, I buy some as well.
Uh, I guess
last year we, we run about 110 yearlings.
It's not a very big outfit.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: well, just enough
that you can keep your grandkids busy.
Track 1: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's, I feel very comfortable,
uh, when I'm gone with them doing it.
They've developed quite a g grier's eye.
Um, they're 16 to 22, so,
uh, the three kids that are involved.
So it works out well.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh, very good.
Yes.
And where are you located?
Track 1: I'm located at
Hanley Saskatchewan, Canada.
We're just south of a beautiful city
called Saskatoon, so most people get tied
up on that Saskatoon Saskatchewan thing.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: I'm sure I
would, I, I have trouble with the towns
in Oklahoma, so we won't even try that.
Now, Lee, how long have
you been doing this?
Track 1: I've been involved in,
in some form of agriculture.
Most of my life, uh, I guess in the early
years as a youngster, I, uh, spent every
minute I could, any extra day from school.
I spent my grandfather's place, uh, in
them years.
It was like a 30 mile drive,
and it was, it was not easy
to communicate in those years.
Um, but uh, every holidays that, you
know, like Christmas holidays or all
summer, I was usually at, at the farm.
And, uh, my, my father was very interested
in horses and we lived in town, but, uh,
we, we rented a, you know, place for,
to keep horses over the years until,
uh, oh, I don't know what it was, 30
some years ago, I guess I lost my dad.
And that kind of started my own journey.
Uh, I had some horses there.
To look after.
And I finally got a place of my own
at that point, I guess Cal, and,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh
Track 1: me, it was, uh, grass
alfalfa actually is what it was.
Straight alfalfa.
So I hated that for a while and got
tired of that because, uh, all this time
I was working full-time, uh, managing a
haying operation or an irrigated forge
program, uh, supplying feed for, uh,
a program for the federal government.
Uh, so anyway, I, it was time
consuming and doing my own hay
got to be quite a tough deal.
So then I, uh, I read an article
and, uh, started grazing.
I started grazing straight alfalfa.
I'll be honest, that's, I broke
my teeth wide open on that.
Um, I think we had something like 50
heifers come in on the quarter section.
At that time, I was living closer to
Outlook, then Outlook, Saskatchewan.
Uh, rotated them.
I had read an article about a guy
in southern Southeast Saskatchewan,
uh, doing some grazing, and, uh, I
broke up my quarter section into,
uh, eight paddocks for the cattle.
And I had two other places for horses.
So, uh, I started rotating cattle on
straight alfalfa and got that going.
And I received a stock dog, I guess,
for Christmas from my family one year.
And that got the bug going for
the start training the dog.
So I bought a few sheep, uh, trained
this darn dog and that led me into
another journey, another rabbit hole.
I guess it was really, it started,
uh, found out that I could, uh,
get them sheep bread and have some
little ones and started making a
little money off of that as well.
So we grew that business over an outlook
instead of, I started grazing the sheep
on the alfalfa instead of the cattle.
So we'd done that and then moved, I guess
we've been over here about 22 years.
So
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yes.
Now on grazing alfalfa,
Track 1: yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
I'm in northeast Oklahoma.
Alfalfa, there's no,
no alfalfa around here.
If you wanna buy alfalfa, you
gotta go out to western Oklahoma,
Western Kansas, and truck it in.
And when we dared, we used to do
that, but I've never grazed alfalfa.
However, what I've read you, you gotta
take some precautions with grazing it.
Did you have any trouble grazing alfalfa?
Track 1: Uh, I did with the
sheep, uh, the very first time.
Uh, but I was just
impatient with the cattle.
I never had any problems.
Uh, I had a, a field, a small field
where my dugout was, that was grass.
So I put them in there when they first
arrived, uh, overnight and in the
morning they grazed, uh, in there.
And, uh, just after dinner they, you know,
kind of full and they were laying down.
And, uh, that's when I went
down and kicked the gate open
to the alfalfa and kind of
moved them out in there slowly.
And from there on it was just kind
of fly by the seat of your pants.
You had to have more guts and glory on
it and, uh, just moved them right, moved.
Didn't put no pressure on things.
Uh, I found, they told me the
secret was to move them before
you had to kind of thing.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Wonderful.
Yes.
And you said the sheep gave you a
little bit more trouble with it though.
Track 1: Yeah, I got impatient.
I was working and haying and
I went, it was in the spring.
Uh, I guess we weren't haying yet, but I
was trying to irrigate and just busy time.
And I went out in the morning.
I was, I was going by to work and I
kicked them out into the field and,
uh, I guess I lost five that morning.
Uh, my own stupidity.
yeah.
I, I thought they'd be okay.
They were on full feed overnight,
but, but after that I didn't
have any more problems.
I just held the program
like I did with the cattle.
I guess I had smaller paddocks,
um, that I was rotating through.
I broke it up from eight to, I
think I had a dozen then, but
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
And you did that for a few years
till you moved to your current place.
Track 1: That's right.
Um.
I wanted to live on the
place, and it's a major road.
They rerouted a highway and all the
heavy traffic come down our road.
So I started looking around.
I found this one at the end of a
trail and she's pretty peaceful here.
And, uh, we, we managed to, to
buy it and get the other one sold.
And we live right here, I guess
we've been here 22 years and I still
kind of consider myself a bit of a
newbie around here, but That's okay.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh, yes.
I, I think that's funny.
We, so the area we live in, we're about
10 miles from a small town here and.
Most people here in the area I live,
they, they commute to that town
or, or more further away to work.
But when we moved out here, um, my
grandparents lived out here and we
moved out here to be close to them,
and we started dairying with them.
But there was like a handful of
families I could count on my hand
of who lived out here and who
had lived out here for decades.
And since then, you know,
everything's getting chopped up.
Little pieces of land, people's
putting houses everywhere.
We have all these people out here
now, and to me, they're not, not the
people that's supposed to be out here.
And I know that's not very accepting
of myself, but I, I enjoyed it when
there wasn't much traffic on the road.
And other day I was talking to someone
and I'm like, well, they moved out here.
And they're like, yeah, they
moved out here like 30 years ago.
Okay.
Well, so yeah, I, I get that being
still kind of new to the area.
Yeah.
Having lived there a few decades,
Track 1: Well,
kind of opposite.
We lost people around the area, actually.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
So how far are you, you've mentioned
earlier, how far are you from a big city?
Track 1: So to the outskirts of
Saskatoon, we're about 40 minutes.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: okay.
So not bad.
And how big is,
Track 1: a couple
hundred thousand I think.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
a couple hundred thousand.
So
Track 1: I think so, yeah.
Good.
Or
more, maybe that's a while back.
I don't keep track of that sort of thing.
It's more
people than I want to deal with, so,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: yeah.
Yeah.
So you got
moved out there.
Did you take your sheep with you?
You get back into cattle?
Track 1: Okay.
Yeah, we, we moved over, I brought,
uh, at that time I think I had about
150, 170 s uh, working full time.
We bought in about 75 yearlings.
Then, uh, had the horses, uh,
was, was here a a a couple
years and then BSE blew up.
Um, things, uh, got pretty tight for,
for a couple of years, but, uh, I
kind of hung onto them, them cattle,
'cause we couldn't get rid of them.
They weren't worth anything and
you couldn't take 'em anywhere.
Right?
So, uh, they were, they were heifers.
I had bought all heifers, so we
threw a bull in with them and,
and, uh, went through that route.
Then it got dry on us.
The, the year after
droughted out a bit and.
I guess I, I was looking for, I I, I
stumbled into a deal there with some
feed and I, I should touch on that
'cause it was something that really
helped us through the, the sheep kind
of made payments on the cattle for
the BSE because the sheep were paid
for at the time and they were actually
bringing a little better money.
But
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Court.
Track 1: with the droughts, uh,
there was no feed around to speak of.
And, uh, I had a guy tell me that a
neighbor of mine, uh, had a field of wheat
that, uh, was crop insurance had rode off.
Uh, they figured there was about a
six or seven bushel crop in there.
And I went to see 'em and we looked at
the field, the kosher weed had come up
in it, and it, because we had a late.
Uh, rain, and it was in September where
we started to silo this, uh, the, the
kosher wheat had flushed up and it
was probably four or five feet high.
Like
we,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yes.
Track 1: I got a chopper in is what I did.
I, I knew a guy with a chopper and trucks
and stuff, and we, he rolled in and
it was, I don't know, probably a seven
mile haul, six seven mile haul over.
And we just put, put it on top
of the ground and tarped it.
Right.
And I had an
all kinds of feed and I had all
kinds of neighbor coming by because
it was kind of something unique to
the area that as usual, I get coffee
shop going and I don't mind that.
But anyway, I custom fed some cattle
and I custom fed some sheep as well.
So we were running, I think I was about
150 head came in, uh, altogether of cattle
that I was feeding, and I got another.
A bunch of sheep, a liner load of sheep.
I think we were close to 500 head of sheep
at that time, feeding for the winter.
And, uh, I didn't have much cash
flow, uh, but I had an old John Deere
manure spreader here, so I took the
beater off it and we filled that up
and every day and I'd just take it
out and drop it off, make two or three
trips and just let it tumble out of
the back of the, and that's how we fed.
And that led into, uh, uh, some
other silage that I found in Outlook.
There was a mint plant there, and they
had all this old refuse from that, so
they insiled it and they said, I started
buying that by the truckload in the
wintertime, and we fed it the same way.
But the only claim I could do there
was say that it was already my lambs
were already flavored with mint.
Right.
Like,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Saved you a step there for the chefs.
Track 1: Yeah.
Yeah.
And in
that time, I guess I was selling all
natural lamb to a, a, a lady that was
targeting a certain market in restaurants.
Anyway, it ended up, um, I got some lamb
into a hotel where the queen was staying.
Queen England was over and she ate
my lamb, so then I could mark it.
Lamb fit for a queen.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: oh yes.
Yeah.
Track 1: Kinda
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Now
many of us have that opportunity.
Track 1: Yeah.
I guess we won't anymore,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: No,
Now, when you brought those sheep
in, what size are you bringing those
in, and what size are you selling?
Are they wool breeds?
Track 1: I was running wool, wool breeds
and the, and that winter that, uh, the
guy sent me was wool breeds as well.
So we sheared all them
as well that year here.
But,
uh, um, uh, sheep with wool on their
legs is always what I tried to get, uh,
wintered a lot better for me type of
thing.
They out in the cold and, yeah, that
was, I forget the name of the book now
that I read More Grass, more Sheep, more
Money, or some darn thing like that.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
You know, we don't have too
much wool sheep here anymore.
It's all gone to Hare sheep do.
Is there still,
Uh,
market for wool sheep in Canada, or
is it gone kind of like the US market
Track 1: it's gone like that
across the world, I guess.
Cal, that's
the big thing.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: to someone
I think in Australia and they were
talking about it as well, so, yeah.
Track 1: Right.
So I guess, uh, I was a director
for the Canadian Cooperative
Wool Growers for 14 years too.
I, I guess full disclosure on
that, so I kind of understood
that wool market a little better.
Um,
Canada's wool isn't the
greatest to begin with.
Uh, I asked, I asked the manager years
ago where we sat, I said, would we be in
the top 10 of quality wool in the world?
And he said, not even.
But
everybody thinks they have good
wool, but really we don't have good
wool when it comes right down to it.
Uh.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: So where is Go?
Good Wool.
Track 1: Well, I guess the
states has the finer wool, right?
We had finer
wool.
This, This, country was kinda, the
southern part of Saskatchewan was fine.
Wool sheep down there, that's
what got the ranches going in
the early years, of course, just
like other places.
And, uh, it's left now.
So, uh, I guess the production of going
into sheds, that sort of thing has kind of
dropped that wool quality off quite a bit.
Um, so it's, it's kind of
tough to deal with now.
Tough to market.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yes.
Yeah.
Something you just gotta deal with now.
Now, how long did you do sheep cattle?
Because you're
not doing sheep now.
You're, You're,
just doing yearling cattle.
Track 1: Now I got goats too.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
Oh, you got some goats too?
I
thought you had goats.
Track 1: Yeah, We run into, uh, goats.
Probably trying to think now if it's
about 13, 14 years ago, maybe Cal,
about the time I switched my job in
from being the, uh, irrigation irrigated
forage foreman for the government.
Uh, started a bit of a small
project with, uh, invasive weeds
at one of the pastures that we,
the government owned at that time.
It had,
uh,
I think it was something like 12,000, 10
to 12,000 acres infested, spurge on 25,000
acre, um, I don't know what you'd call it.
We call it a pasture, but,
so they, I was got talking with
it with, with a fallah that.
He, he's actually kind of a friend
and, and I had to work for him.
And he's, he's a really good friend
and still is a friend, and, uh, has
been a mentor of mine over the years.
And, uh, is on our, our other
group, the, the Long Lifelong
Learners Group.
But, uh, he asked me if I'd be interested
in doing something with grazing in there.
They had sheep coming in there, uh, they
just weren't getting enough numbers right?
Like they'd have anywheres from
as low as 600 up to 1200 sheep in there.
But, uh, we needed more impact, so he
asked me to kind of take that over.
So the first year, I, I did and we had
1100 of our own, and then he had, or
pardon me, 800 of our own on our side.
And then the other people had,
uh, 1100 that had been doing it.
So, you know, we had a good shot in there.
And then the next year we, as the.
The government took it over entirely.
Uh, that year, I think we were around
3,200 sheep and goats run in there.
Um, and then, uh, yeah, that, that's when
I kind of started buying my own goats.
Government bought goats, believe it
or not, the federal government had
goats there and, uh, we were kidding
goats out on that leafy spurge.
Um, I thought it was something we could
do and, and, uh, I, and we did do it.
Yeah.
And it worked out pretty good actually.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: On, on
the, the goats there, did you just
have 'em in, did you just have 'em
on that pasture or did you do any
rotation or any management of those?
Track 1: Yeah, they were moving now.
Um, they were shepherding them
previously, but the idea was
that we were gonna fence these.
Large fields they had.
Um, because the idea was we could teach
people to fence and manage things and
just go out and check them rather than
having to shepherd them all the time.
Um, as it turned out, uh, the fencing plan
was there, a bunch of material bought.
Um, the guy that started
fencing ended up not fencing.
He quit the job and, uh, we went
back to kind of herding and, and
kind of fencing for the summer.
And then the next year they, I think
they kind of, the, that, that year
after I was done, done, I retired.
So they had about 4,000 head that next
year and they were shepherding them.
So it's kind of a tough deal.
I.
But if they could have got all
those big fields fenced, it
would've been a lot better.
It really would.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Track 1: Yeah,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
And so that was about the
time you started with goats?
Track 1: I did, yeah.
When they asked me to find goats, I would
been kind of interested in anyway, so,
um, I retired and I started up my own
targeted grazing business and, and had
sheep and goats here with the cattle.
Had had some diversity going,
I guess, and, the, the sheep do
well on, on what we were doing.
But I was targeting spurge
mostly on a lot, a lot of my
work was targeting spurge.
I was very interested in leafy spurge and,
the sheep kind of just didn't fit as well.
Running both breeds in numbers, so,
uh, or.
I don't know what the heck the most, I,
I had, I suppose would've been around 250
goats at one time, but, and I was getting
other people's goats and run into another
project in the further southwest, and it
was a 4,000 acre project, I guess I was on
there and on there for three, four years
type of thing, and got it under control.
Talked that rancher into investing
in goats there so that, you know,
hopefully they would be able
to look after it themselves.
Right.
Was the idea.
yeah.
Yeah.
Not all ranchers can hire somebody to
come in and target graze on their land.
It's costly.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So doing that targeting
grazing, they would hire you.
You would come in.
Um, graze your goats for a while till it
got the leafy spurge under control,
and then it's back to them.
Track 1: Well, that 4,000 acres I didn't
get across at all, that's for sure.
Uh, we, I was down there a hundred
days, 120 days, 130 days type of thing.
Um, the first year I got home
once overnight, I had a bull get
into a dugout and I had to come
rescue it and get it out and
get back.
But it's, uh, it's kind of a five
hour drive to get back and forth.
So, uh, things ran pretty good at home.
I, I got, uh, I really, a really good
wife that was really supportive of
what I wanted to do and backed me
up and, um, the grandkids stepped in
at an early age and helped and I've
been very fortunate to be able to.
Do something that I'm
passionate about with the, with
the grazing thing.
I graze horseback and use
border collies and guard dogs.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: And
you mentioned that earlier, you,
are you still training dogs?
Track 1: uh, just my own, I, I was
custom training for a while and
I was trialing for a while, but,
uh, it's, it's easy to train dogs.
Not good, not so easy
to train them people.
And, uh,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh, yes.
Yeah,
Track 1: trialing thing I
found to be too political, so
I stepped away from it too.
It's kind like team rope
and I used to team rope, but
that's another disease, right?
Those are just diseases.
Enjoyable one.
So.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Right.
Yeah.
I, I consider at times getting a
border Collie, and then, well, then I
wise up and realize I don't have the
time to dedicate to a border Collie.
And so I haven't done it.
And then, then I, I worry about stress
to animals, but really the big thing
is having enough time to work with it.
And I've not trained a dog, so
it would be the blind leading the
blind unless I buy a trained dog,
and that costs a lot more money.
Track 1: Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: as of this
point, I don't have one, but every once
in a while I start looking for one and
my wife's like, you looking at puppies?
Track 1: Yeah.
I, I
have some of them ideas too, and sometimes
if I lie down, that thought goes away.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I really don't think I need
it, and it is just something
else to add to what I'm doing, so
that's what I keep telling myself.
But I do know, every once in a while
I slip up and I get really close.
I,
Track 1: I like using the dogs.
I use 'em on the cattle and the goats,
so they're pretty handy tool at times.
Uh, I run, when I'm out grazing, I
usually have three dogs with me, so
two horses, trade off horses, but the
dogs usually go out every day with me.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: I've, I've
never had the luxury of a good dog.
We've, I mean, we've had good
dogs, but not well-trained dogs.
That would be the better wording.
So.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Track 1: days I just get them
handy enough for to get by.
I don't need, nothing's
real special I guess.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Well, as long as they
work for you, that's,
that's your goals there.
Track 1: Yeah,
if they'll go out that, you know, five,
600 yards when I need them too, outta
sight and, and think on their own and
bring the stock back over to where I need
them on their own, uh, that's what I need.
I don't need a push button dog.
I just need a thinking dog.
And with some
guidance from me, uh, sometimes I
get in the way and sometimes I don't.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
So we all struggle with getting
in our own way too often.
Now with your, your goats,
just a little bit more on that.
What breed were you looking for?
Or did you have a specific
type in mind, or were you just
buying what was available?
Track 1: I, uh, was looking
for Spanish genetics.
I wanted to get something
Spanish or Kiko, right,
is what I was looking
for.
And I found Spanish first.
And, uh.
I bought a small trip group of goats.
It's called a trip.
Right.
And it's a, it's a real trip.
All right.
Getting into them.
But
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
Yeah.
Track 1: we, we grew 'em up good.
And, uh, I, I closed herd, uh, I
don't know what it is now, five,
six years ago, I suppose, closed up.
And we only use our own
butts and that sort of thing.
Uh, I, I, I was commenting the other
day with, with a friend of mine and
does targeted grazing, and I asked,
I guess it was maybe on one of our,
one of our, uh, gatherings there, we
were discussing that, I guess when Dr.
Ann was talking.
And, uh, I, I made the comment
that my goats have changed.
How, how they look, what, you
know, different things about them.
They've changed and adapted two things.
Our climate for one, has to, they have
to adapt better into, to, uh, being.
With our extreme cold snaps and,
um, making, utilizing feed better.
I, I'm big on that, uh, looking for that,
but also the way they browse and, and
eat, they, they've changed, like mouth
size is a little more important to me.
And rumens, the way I graze is
a little different than most.
I, I graze in the morning for a few
hours and graze in the evening for a
few hours and they tamp up pretty hard.
They, you know, their rumens are
quite swelled when they come in and,
uh, let them relax for the afternoon.
We go out for the evening and, and they
fill up again and they get on that routine
and I, I like to line them out in a line.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Would you say
they're predominantly Spanish with some
Kiko influence now, or have
you brought in enough Kiko?
You would say it's equal influence?
Track 1: I, I've stayed more
Spanish, I'll be honest.
Yeah.
I think there might have been some
Kiko influence in what they called was
Spanish, but, uh, it every, I brought in
goats from Montana, bucks from Montana,
and I brought, I bought a
buck that we brought in from
Texas, uh, span all Spanish.
So, mostly dominant in Spanish, I'd say.
Yeah.
But, uh, very bipedal.
Uh, if I get into some woodwork
where I need them to be up in
the air, boy, they'll stretch
out a lot more than other goats.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
How are you fencing them?
Are you shepherding in them or
are you putting up some fencing?
Track 1: Uh, at home I have fencing.
I have a couple of strands on barbed wire,
experimented with, and don't ever do that.
They just tangle up with the barbed wire.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Track 1: have a, an offset I use
quite a bit and I've shared that
with others and, um, they've used
it and it's been pretty workable.
I, one strand offset, uh, 10 inches
off the post, 10 inches off the ground
and got some rickety old fence that's
holding goats in for the most part.
Occasionally I do have something
get out, but uh, you know, there's
usually a reason for it, I guess.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh Yeah.
Track 1: But, uh, fencing, fencing is
pretty important for people getting in.
I guess that's the thing I always,
first comment I'll make is if they
can't hold water, don't buy 'em.
But, after you get 'em trained
to electricity, they stay
in actually really good.
Like we kitted, uh,
started kitten last year.
Uh, rotational grazing and
kidding we'll put up two.
I started out with three
strands, um, the first paddock.
Uh, and then I went to two strands and
we started rotating and just bumping our
does ahead and dropping the, the mothers
and the kids behind and letting them
catch up in a couple of days.
Right.
I, my back fence, I
don't move as fast, but
I'll move my front fence.
Yeah.
And we used
to do that with sheep too.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: well,
I really like that idea, and
that's similar to what we've done.
At times with sheep.
Uh, my journey with sheep, we've had
sheep was this 20, 24, so almost 10 years
now, and I'm still figuring them out.
Lambing time is a little difficult for us
in that I wanna tag those babies, but I
don't wanna break up that bonding time.
And I found last year I broke
up some bonding time and ended
up having more orphan lambs.
I blame on myself, um, than I should have.
The year before I did what you were
talking about, I, I just moved the herd
forward and let those ewes stay back,
and then I just moved them up slowly.
It seemed to work much better, and
that's what I'm, I'm planning for
this year with my goats and sheep.
However, I still don't have
the ear tagging solved because
I really, I don't know.
I struggle.
I didn't tag at all.
Let's see.
I'm trying to think.
Last year I didn't tag at all.
I've tagged all the way up till last
year and I thought I could match 'em
up a little bit better, but I couldn't
match 'em up to the ewes later on.
I really wanted to, because we
have a closed flock with our sheep
and we just keep our own rams and,
and it makes it tougher to pick
out the rams I wanna keep for the
following year if they're not tagged.
Track 1: Yeah.
Uh, we used to do that, uh, wh when I
was pasture lambing, uh, had, uh, one dog
in particular that was very good, that
she would keep the mother fairly close
to us while I snuck in and got the kids.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh
Track 1: we put, we'd put
a rotor tag in the kids.
Um, if it went in the
right ear, it was a female.
If it went in the left ear, it was a male.
So when they were coming down the
race, I could draft them off easier.
Uh,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
Yeah, that's a good idea.
Track 1: also painted numbers on
some, at times with a spray bomb.
Just use that.
Uh, livestock paint.
Uh, sometimes wrote a
number on there if things
got away in a hurry.
Uh, used to keep track of everything.
Uh, started building that,
you know, anything that didn't
have a baby went down the road.
And after that, uh, anything that singled
went down the road and had, I had a
pretty good flock of ewes that were
running really good for me, actually.
And one day, two fools met.
Someone offered me too much
money and I, uh, took it.
So,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
I don't blame you.
Track 1: so a lot of
them left at that point.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
And that's, that's actually kind of
where we were, are we've been selling,
uh, anything that doesn't lamb and,
and, we'll, we'll continue to do that,
but we're about to take a hard swipe
at those ewes that just raised singles.
Um, we, we feel like we have
enough numbers and we really want
to be able to identify those ewes
and if there's any problem there,
two strikes, she's out for sure.
Track 1: So I, I started to try
and do that with the goats, but
they're a lot more touchier it seems.
Um, so I, I don't, and I found I wasn't
keeping track of the records anyway, Cal.
So I quit worrying about it.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Uh
Track 1: So we put it.
We put a dangle tag on any of the,
uh, doeling that we're keeping.
So all the does and doelings are,
are tagged with a dangle tag.
And if I have a problem with something,
it gets an ear notch on the tag.
Not on the ear, but on the tag.
if it gets, yeah, so if it
gets two in the tag, it's gone.
For sure.
The first one, uh, if it's, uh, on
the side of the tag, it's a warning.
And it might be something that
maybe it wasn't her fault.
If it's
at the bottom of the tag, uh, like she's
just Miss Mothered and was a bad mom,
it'll be at the bottom of the tag and
that goes, it doesn't get a second notch.
Right.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
You just notching that with
pliers or pocket knife.
Track 1: Ear notch
players.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: notches.
Yeah.
We, um, I always forget about those.
We used to ear notch our dairy calves, and
I always forget about those pliers, Dr.
Sparks, who was big into kikos here
in Oklahoma when I got my kikos.
In fact, my first Kikos.
Came from him and he was big on,
goats are different than sheep.
You can't expect goats
to have twins every year.
If you have a single this year, they're
probably gonna have twins next year.
Now he, he always said he wanted
a single to first year twins
that every year after that.
But he says goats, you have to be
careful about pushing them to get there.
Now, on episode, um, 67, we had Adam
Levia on and he was talking about
goats and he's really got his kidding
percentage up high, um, over 200%
and he's really focused on that.
And I, which I thought was
really impressive because I've
never had that kind of of luck
with my kidding percentage.
Track 1: I, I
guess I
used to worry about that.
Uh, with what I'm doing, I'm, I'm
ranching 'em more than farming 'em, so
I'm pushing them harder.
Uh, I'm, I'm kidding late in the year,
like, uh, may, June type of thing now.
And I just, uh, not as worried about
getting a lot of triplets or quads.
I used to, you know, twins are, are great.
I was getting quads at times, so
I just started backing things off.
Uh, don't flush as hard when I flush.
Uh, it's just better pasture now.
Uh, we don't
feed grain unless we have to.
Uh, I have fed grain.
I won't say I don't.
Uh, I fed straw one year
with, with grain screenings.
It was wheat, uh, tech was in it.
Wheat, lentils and peas
were in it, uh, screenings.
So, uh, and that was the cheapest
way I could feed that year.
Uh, I'm all about that.
I feed weed bales.
I get as much weedy bales as
I can find cheap, as long as
there's some grain in the weeds.
Why?
It works out pretty good.
Yep.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: And that,
and that brings me to a question
that I had, um, thought to ask
earlier, and I hadn't asked.
The land in your area, is there much
farming going on or is it mainly pasture?
You have a lot of irrigation.
Track 1: Uh, there's a little
bit of irrigation over here.
Outlook was full of irrigation.
Uh.
When, where I was before
I grew up on irrigation.
Uh, over here, uh, to the
north of me is, is all pasture.
Very fortunate to the north of me, to the
south of me, uh, is grain farming mostly.
Yeah.
So
I'm on that edge there.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh
yeah, one more thing before we
go to the overgrazing section.
Do you wanna talk about your,
um, lifelong learner group?
Track 1: Uh, yeah, I can,
thanks for bringing that up.
I guess Cal, it's a, it's
a thing, a little project I
started it off with last year.
Um, I was, uh.
Became a mentor for the Canadian, uh,
forage and Grazing Association and hosted,
uh, meetings, uh, I guess it'd be a year
ago now if that, we kind of finished
that up.
And, uh, I took the producers on those
sites, uh, offered them, uh, soil
Health program last fall and Outlook,
uh, had people's gather in there.
And from that, I took those names
and added into the poll and pool.
I mean, and, uh, I started a, a
kind of a newsletter thing, uh, with
the option of, every second week
or so we'll invite a speaker in to
speak and, uh, talk about things.
Uh, farm Ranch related
mostly most of the time.
And, uh.
It's, it's, it's something that I
think we can share and it's growing.
Um, I think I'm up to, I don't
know, 160 some people I'm
sending mail out to right now.
And it's mostly been word of mouth
and a little bit advertised on,
on uh, Facebook a little bit.
But, uh, it's, it's been very encouraging.
And, uh, I guess the last one, uh,
was, was last night and we discussed it
was an open mic forum and uh, I think
we're gonna start recording them too.
People have been asking what
we do and, uh, so I think we're
gonna start recording everything.
I was recording just the speakers.
Unfortunately I had a really good
podcaster on and I forgot to hit record.
Uh, w
which was
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
may have been a good thing.
Track 1: Grazing Grass Podcast.
Uh, Cal Hardage was on.
And, uh, we really enjoyed Gal
and I appreciate you coming
on.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: thank you.
Track 1: Um.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Well.
I, I love the idea of your group
and the email and having that
opportunity for conversation.
Um, I plan to be at, at some of the
others, and I've not, not made it.
I, I'm on blame.
Sometimes I'm lazy.
Sometimes I get busy, but, um,
I'm gonna try and be there.
'cause I really like the idea of
that, that shared community, um,
discussing what's going on and
having, having people in there talk.
I, I just love the whole idea of it.
And I, I am, um, impressed you
have that going and glad you do.
Track 1: Well, thank you.
It's, uh, it's, it's a great
learning curve for me, uh, doing it.
But, uh, being able to share
knowledge is something I've, uh.
I've done a fair amount of, and I
believe it's important to do, and I
try to give back by stepping into some
of these groups, uh, as directors and
stuff that I've been involved with
over the years because I'm giving
back now, and I think that's important
and, uh, helping out the youth.
Um, I really want to try
and get more youth involved.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yes.
Yeah.
Great.
I, I, um, really encourage anybody
who wants to join that to join.
And if
someone wanted to, Lee,
how would they join that?
Track 1: They could just email me,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: we, we
can put more information in our
show notes
so that, um, someone can get on
that so they can, can join in.
Track 1: You bet.
I appreciate that.
Yep.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: And Lee,
it's time for us to move on to the
overgrazing section where we take a
little bit deeper dive into something
you're doing, and you've mentioned it a
few times, and that's targeted grazing.
What, what do you even mean
when you say targeted grazing?
Track 1: So, uh, I'm using small
ruminants, uh, now mostly goats because,
uh, I deal with a lot of ranchers and
they are very accepting of the goats
being on their land because they feel
they don't eat much grass and they
really don't, if they're properly
utilized, uh, they'll eat brush,
they'll eat weeds, that sort of thing.
More browse and Forbes.
So, uh, what I do is noxious, we
control a lot of that, uh, take the
animals in and we, we try to graze them.
Um.
Uh, uh, on the Spurs I'm getting
to where I'm probably hitting it,
like 40% of the plant is gone and it
restarts the plant and we come back.
I'm hitting it more often rather
than, at first we were just trying
to strip everything off of the
plant to make it start again.
I wasn't getting as much fast
regrowth 'cause they were slower
starting to come in for a second pass.
So I, I kind of related to
a poor farmer with cattle.
Their cattle are in there all the time
grazing and I try to mimic that as
we're coming and going across the i'll,
I'll let them, uh, usually go out to
the far end of the property where I
am and will graze back in towards camp
and, um, they'll just keep kind of
touching it and shortening the roots.
Right.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Track 1: The idea is to make it.
Kind of hurt a little bit and
want to start more and more.
Um, I, I chased my mind a little bit
over the years doing it, how I do it now,
and I think it's been pretty successful.
I, I see results.
Uh, the people that were in there
monitoring said there was results and,
uh, I like to have someone else monitor
my work so that I am, I'm not biased.
I do my own monitoring
for my own satisfaction.
But, uh,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
Track 1: yeah, so we
usually, usually graze.
I, you can fence a lot of people fence.
You'll see that in, in a lot of,
uh, urban areas where they'll fence
and, and just have them in there
all the time looking after them.
Uh, whereas I choose to be in
bigger spaces where I can herd with
my dogs and horse, uh, horseback.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: So,
you, you're going out there
horseback with your dogs and, um,
shepherding those animals basically?
Track 1: yes.
Yes.
That's, uh, and what I, I do it a
little different than others because
of, uh, the, the way I line 'em out.
I, I'll do a horizontal or vertical
on hillsides, or I try to get
'em side by side so that they're
competing with each other, like
people do at a buffet or smorgasbord.
Hey, the first one's in,
always keep their plates up.
And, um, the first one's in, you know,
I, if I can line 'em out and they're
eating side by side, they eat hard.
So when I teach, uh, I try to, to teach
people how to do targeted grazing.
And, uh, I went to school down
in the States, to couple schools
to learn to do it properly.
If with some great mentors, uh, uh.
I went to, uh, Tennessee Browsing
Academy, and then I went to the
California Multi-Species Grazing Academy.
Uh, then I brought those folks
up and done one in Outlook,
or not Outlook at Hanley here.
Then we, uh, done another one in
Swift KI guess in the winter time.
It was a winter deal, but yeah, just
trying to educate people on it, if I can.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yeah.
And how long are you spending on
these properties when you do this?
Track 1: Well, the bigger ones
on there quite a while, that
like a hundred, 120 days minimum
type of thing is, is is the season,
uh, you know, from the time it
starts until it's kind of done.
Uh, the smaller ones you might only
like some of these ones where you fence.
You might be there a couple of days
and you're moving, right, or a week
or whatever.
Those fencing projects we use,
uh, mostly netting on them
because of the public around.
But, uh, I do get away with
Multi Strand some places too.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
It
just kind of depends
on the area you're in.
Track 1: It does.
Yep, yep,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
Track 1: One.
One of the things on this overgrazing
thing, if I could set back the
unwanted vegetation so that
the wanted vegetation can get a
better start and improve, so soil
biology, then that's what we're about.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yes.
And is that just that leafy uh,
spurge.
Is that the main plant
you're targeting there?
Or do you all have a few
other noxious weeds that's
Track 1: Yeah, we
have other noxious, we have other ones.
Uh, there's some, uh, right now there's
some grazing available that there was
out for bid and I didn't really bid on it
because they're bidding on, uh, spurge and
they're bidding on, a grass species and
absence is another one, and it's a more
woody, small woody, plant.
Wormwood, I think is also a name for it.
But anyway, uh, they're targeting
like three and four different plants.
And to me it's.
The targeting of the plant on
some of those plants is different.
So you're trying to
target 'em in one time, but you
can't, you can't do it effectively.
In my mind, that's my opinion on it.
Um, so yeah, I, I settle on spurge.
We got lots of it.
It's uh, very high in, in
protein, higher than alfalfa.
Even in the late
stages it's still very good.
So my animals do really good
and that's why, you know, I
can have like that rancher.
He can, he can kid on it and do his
kids will do real is those will do well.
And yeah, they come out eating
spurs, I'll tell you there.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh, very good.
Yeah.
Well, thank you Lee.
Lee, it's time for us to move to
our famous four questions, same four
questions we ask of all of our guests.
Our first question, what is your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?
Track 1: Boy, you know,
there's so many good things.
I, I guess I have a deal.
I, I'd have to say my, my computer
type of thing is, is gonna be
probably one of my better resources
because, uh, every morning I
take half an hour to an hour cal.
I'll be honest, if I have my coffee and
I'll, I'll watch or listen to things.
Right.
That,
uh, educational things, you know,
and that's, that's where I've been
learning a lot of stuff, I guess.
And when I'm out working, I'm on
podcasts with my earphones in, so,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh yes.
Yeah, very good.
I, I do that at times.
Now.
I get sidetracked.
The computer's really distracting.
With all the tabs I can open and
I can really go on a rabbit hunt.
Now
Track 1: I hooked mine up to the tv.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505:
oh, oh, there you go.
On the podcast and working outside.
Sometimes I found I just gotta take my
headphones out and just enjoy the moment.
But then,
um, I do that for a while and then I
put my headphones back on because I
want to, I want to enjoy the moment.
I want to take it in, but then I also
have this other need I wanna be learning.
Track 1: yeah.
Uh, listening to books while I'm
out grazing a lot where I was
this last time, uh, wasn't much
internet, so downloading a book or a
podcast was easy to do, so,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Worked out
much better.
Yeah.
Track 1: yeah.
You
can't, like you say though,
you don't do it full time.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: yeah.
You gotta take a little
bit of break from that.
Yeah.
Our second question, what is your
favorite tool to use on the Farmer Ranch?
Track 1: Oh man, I thought about that.
Yeah, I'd say, uh, anything that makes
my life easy is a great tool for me.
Uh, I, the little things, I guess, uh,
like my leatherman, I, I use it a lot.
Uh, that remote control, shutoff for
that fencer is huge for me when we're
moving cattle and stuff.
Uh, and I use a quad a lot.
I do when I'm at home here, moving fence.
So we do a lot of poly fencing,
temporary wire that we're moving, and
I'm always either unrolling with the
quad or reeling it up with a drill.
So
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Very good.
Our third question, what
would you tell someone?
Just getting started?
Track 1: be prepared.
Uh, read as much as you can,
shadow somebody that you think
is doing a good job for you.
Uh, take courses.
Uh, a life changing thing for me
has been taking, uh, ranching for
Profit and I took my grandkids to
a holistic management, uh, deal.
Uh, both very good things, uh, to
to look into.
Yeah.
And I, I, I wished I'd
have done it to begin with.
I really do.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Talking
about going to Ranching for
Profit, and I haven't gone yet.
Uh, it's mainly that sticker
price, sticker shock.
Track 1: Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: at
that price, I'm like, oh, man.
But, um, I, I have more free
time now, um, because I'm on
the farm full, full-time now.
Um, with my other hobbies, I,
I have resigned at my job so I
can focus on the farm with the
goal of, of doing this long term.
I thought the timing was right, so I
actually have more time available now.
Track 1: Uh, yeah, it's only my
opinion and other people have said it
and I'd have to agree that probably
you'll pay for that Ranching for
Profit in the first year if you're
serious and, and really,
you know, dig into it.
I think you will.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: I've,
I've only heard good things.
Track 1: Yeah.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Yeah.
Track 1: I'm going up to visit the
boys, uh, Dave Pratt and, and Dallas
Mount both, uh, gonna be together
at one time in Saskatoon this week.
They're teaching, uh,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh,
Track 1: our Canadian laws don't allow
them to be up here for the full length
each, so they have to split the, the
course in half and one teaches one
half and one teaches the other half.
And,
I get, I'm gonna go up and
visit, I guess Thursday night.
I'll be doing that.
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Oh, very good.
And lastly, Lee, where can
others find out more about you?
Track 1: Facebook, I guess.
Uh, I don't do a whole
lot, I'll be honest.
Uh, I'm on Facebook just for the
sites that I enjoy looking at.
I'm not there being a lovey-dovey,
uh, contact person and wishing
everybody well type of thing.
Uh, Instagram's the other one I use.
And, uh, x formerly Twitter,
I have an account on them,
cal_1_02-06-2024_183505: Lee, I appreciate
you coming on and, and sharing about
what you're doing and your journey.
I've really enjoyed it.
Track 1: Uh, thanks for having me on.
I hope, uh, there's something
worthwhile there for you to use and,
uh, uh, anybody wants to reach out.
I'm very open to anybody
wanting to reach out.
If I can help you, I sure will help out.
If I can't, I may not know a
lot, but I'll share what I have.