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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. You already know what it is. Back at you Brands, Beats and Bytes podcast. And boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, peeps, this is a show that's gonna be close, near and dear to my heart and let me explain why. First, our guest, Larry, that we're about to formally introduce, which you do such a wonderful job of is from an industry that we adore and that is the non-alcoholic beverage industry.
This is a beverage vet. And we love talking shop with beverage people. Now, most unfortunately, this gentleman happens to come from a competitive, uh, beverage from when we did our thing, but in the business we all respect one another and the competition made us better. That's first. Second, good people know good [00:01:00] people.
This next guest hired someone that worked very closely with me when I was back at Coca-Cola. That'll come up a little later. But this guy that Larry will mention is one of the smartest people that I've ever worked with and made a significant impact back in Kirkland. He also made a significant impact in the land that you're gonna hear our guests talk about here in a moment.
Really good person. So this person is also a good person. And finally, something I did not know, Larry. Our next guest is one of my homeboys. Yep. He gels from the great state of Michigan. Now we're on again, slightly different sides to fence. Okay. This is a Spar-tan.. Okay, well I'm over here with Go Blue. I did not attend the University of Michigan, but I root for the University of Michigan.
So we're on a slightly different size of the, [00:02:00] but it's my homeboy. Brand Nerds get ready for a awesome show dripping with knowledge. LT, Who are we having to building today?
LT: Uh, DC Great. Set up. We have Jim Trouble cock in the house today. Welcome, Jim.
Jim Trebilcock: Thank you. I'm looking forward to the discussion.
LT: We are as well.
So, Jim, we have to give our brand nerds like, uh, the real sense of who we have in our, in the building as we say. So, uh, brand nerds. We are coming to you today with someone who steadily rose through the ranks as an innovative marketer driving great results, both in growing revenue and share with big brands.
After becoming an accomplished CMO, he graduated to an even higher executive position. Let's walk you through Jim's fantastic background, and to say that Jim is a Michigan state. Spartan, as DC alluded to, is a huge understatement. Drew Jim actually grew up in East Lansing, Michigan, and his [00:03:00] childhood home is actually across the street from one of the biggest Michigan State freshman dorms.
For college. Jim actually crosses the street and attends Michigan State University and while in school, his brother is working at a Coca-Cola bottler and Jim gets a job as a bottle sorter and other odds and ends, including driving a bottling truck 50 miles after just learning to drive a manual transmission in the parking lot.
This is a bit of a precursor for Jim, and you will soon learn why. Jim...
DC: hey Larry. I'm sorry. Can, can, sorry, can I just interrupt you for just a second please? I'm sorry. I never knew this, Larry, but Jim, I have to say this to the brand nerds back in the day, brand nerds, and dare I say, even today, if you could, the best way to learn any business is from the ground up.
So if you are a bottle sorter, this was a real job, Brand Nerds. I know you don't, you don't believe that a bottle sorter was a real job driving around in a manual, [00:04:00] uh, car doing stuff in the bottling, uh, that that's a real thing. And also Brand Nerds, there is something that you probably have heard about in marketing, particularly if you're in the CPD world where you go facing facings Brand Nerds, back in Jim's time and Larry's time in my times, you would not dare leave a store unless every single product was faced out straight, right? Like in, in 10 degrees one way was unacceptable. And even the cans behind the first one. So it's not like the first one was, uh, straight up, and then you could do 30 degrees of every single can had to be faced straight up.
So I just want to say this Brand Nerds, the level of dedication. Uh, discipline and expertise that you learn at that level that you can apply at the highest level. It never goes outta style. I just need to say that. Oh, I'm sorry, Larry. Go ahead.
LT: No, that's so D,. I'm so glad you said [00:05:00] that. Uh, so this is, this is you, you interjected a perfect time.
So, Jim ends up earning his undergrad degree and his MBA both in marketing at Michigan State. So after MBA graduation, Jim's first job is a marketing assistant for General Mills in the Big G Division. As we have mentioned many times on this podcast, General Mills is one of those great CPG companies that is truly a wonderful place for any marketer to start a career.
After cutting his teeth at General Mills, Jim then joins Coca-Cola as a franchise salesperson and is soon hired away by one of the largest bottlers in the Coke system, consolidated in their field marketing organization. Alright. So Jim then gets a really cool call to join Seven up in their national headquarters to be the Cherry 7UP brand manager.
Little did Jim know on the day he joins the company he would spend about the next 35 years achieving great success and navigating five different corporate ownership [00:06:00] changes. Wow. After Cherry 7UP, he is asked to run an important line extension for brand for the brand at the time called 7UP Gold and soon after he is promoted to director of marketing for the entire 7UP brand.
As the seven up and Dr. Pepper portfolios come together more, Jim earns another pro promotion becoming VP for IBC Root beer after success with IBC. Jim then moves over to, uh, he moves up the ladder even more, becoming SVP of Marketing, responsible for 7UP and Dr. Prepper brand and strategic marketing.
He holds this position for six years where he and his team have a $120 million plus annual marketing budget, and they're responsible for five-year category growth of 3% and five-year profit category growth of 9.8%, which in this Uber competitive soft drink category is very impressive. Next Cadbury Schwepps comes in as a new corporate overlord and for overlord for the next six years.
[00:07:00] Jim is the SVP of Marketing for Cadbury Schwepps, America's assuming responsibility for the P&L and brand marketing for all carbonated brands, as well as carbonated innovation and brand planning for this 5.4 billion business unit of producing $700 million in operating profit with a $280 million annual market expense.
Alright, so as you can see, Jim is continuing to move up the ladder now another new corporate purchase happens with Jim now working for the Dr. Pepper Snapple group. And with this change, Jim earns the big promotion to the CMO seat. As CMO, Jim is responsible for brand marketing, marketing services, innovation, content, shopper marketing and planning for the $6.4 billion business unit with over $1.2 billion in operating income. Among many highlights for Dr. Pepper, he initiates and negotiates the first corporate sponsorship for the College Football Playoff, which serves as a major growth engine and ultimately [00:08:00] helping grow the Dr. Pepper brand to its current status as the number two brand in the market ahead of Pepsi. Of course, as DC alluded to our good friend Andrew Springate, who's also been, uh, a former guest on Bra Beats and Bites and many others at Dr. Pepper have been a big part of the success too. Another great highlight for Jim in this position as digital marketing is becoming a hugely important component of the marketing mix.
Jim establishes the digital social. And, uh, the digital social media and e-commerce functions and becomes a beta site and strategic partner with Oracle, Google and Facebook. So now after seven really successful years as CMO, Jim earns another big promotion where he is appointed to the newly created position of Chief Concentrate and International Officer for Keurig Dr. Pepper, where he initiates and leads the integration and transformation of the Canadian hot and cold beverage business, a new licensing and bottle of consolidation strategy, all while achieving record sales and [00:09:00] profit for the business in Canada, Mexico, and the United States. This is truly a full circle moment for the guy who used to be the bottle sorter, as we said at a Coke bottle in Michigan in 2022.
Jim leads Keurig Dr. Pepper and continues to do a lot in both business and community. Highlights include president of Dallas Cup International Soccer Tournament, helping them. Uh, significantly. Growth ticket, uh, actually double ticket and sponsorship revenue. And the tournament now generates more than $40 million in annual economic value to North Texas.
He's also a senior advisor for the multicultural entertainment and marketing agency. Loud and Live, advisor to the Evergreen Trading Company is on board of the directors for the international nonprofit Christian Oral Bible translation organization spoken, and he is working with startup alkaline water brand, Jove.
We're really looking forward to this one, Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Jim Trebilcock.
Jim Trebilcock: Thank you. That was quite an introduction. I, [00:10:00] I feel really old after all of that.
DC: Well, you may feel also, you should also feel very accomplished after all of that.
Jim Trebilcock: It's been a good ride.
DC: Been a nice ride, Jim. Been a nice ride. Typically, Jim, in this next section, which we call Get Comfy, there will be one question that I will ask our guest. Yeah. I've got more than one for you. I've got two.
I've got two. All right. Yeah. But before getting into the two questions, I want to give you a bit more, um, of your flowers, which is what Larry was doing with your, your introduction. Jim. Um, I believe that what you initiated and what continues today in the partnership between Dr. Pepper and college football is the best sports marketing activation Wow.
In the last several decades and the best, [00:11:00] I think the, one of the best ever, and I, I, I'll tell you, Jim, what, what Larry and I use as a criterion for like truly great strategy based campaigns. Can the blueprint survive? The people that started it? In your case, Jim, that has been, that has been absolutely the fact.
Uh, I actually texted, uh, Ryan Lahr. He is the, uh, yep. Co, uh, Chief Creative Officer at Deutsch. I texted him. Yep. What, what'd you say, Jim?
Jim Trebilcock: I said I know him well.
DC: Know him well. Yeah. I, I, I know you do. I texted Ryan after I saw one of the latest editions of Ville, and it was a, a whole take on a fan of Dr.
Pepper State, uh, if you will, and who, who is now, uh, there, there they wondering. Are you, who's this western, uh, university that you are now sort of cozying up to is if he's tipping out on state? Yeah. [00:12:00] Hilarious. Jim, Larry. Brand Nerds, I'm falling out of the bed laughing at this. I texted Ryan and said, Hey man.
Great. Great execution and campaign. So I want to give you, you, your flowers. Ryan is flowers and Andrew Springate, Gate baby. His flowers.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. Listen there, this thing started back in 1992. I inherited a program, but it was only with the SEC. And so when we, we started to expand it to the Big 10, 'cause I wanted to get Michigan State involved.
Yeah. Uh, but you know, after the, shortly after that, when I came became CMO, the CFP, they were, there were, uh, conversations around the CFP uh, happening and I was scared we were gonna lose it 'cause everybody wanted to be a part of it.
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: And I actually went around and I met with every commissioner. I had breakfast, I had dinner, I had lunch.
And I told 'em that we will be [00:13:00] their best partner. That we're gonna make this thing work not only for us, but we will make you a success as a result. We did the same thing with ESPN, which had the rights. Mm-hmm. And that solidified the first tranche of getting in and being the first sponsor. I told 'em, I said, I wanna be number one.
I didn't realize how much it was gonna cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, I wanted to be the first one.
DC: Uh, Brand Nerds. For those of you who are not sports fan, CFP is College Football Playoffs, and this is where the top teams at the end of the year, college football teams across the country, assembled to play.
And back then there was not a, there was not a CFP uh, playoff where they were like, one team beats another until you get to NA National Championship. It was organized differently, but it was still the penultimate of who would end up being crowned at the end of the year, the national championship in, [00:14:00] uh, in college football.
Jim, Jim did that. Larry, did you have anything to, uh, add to this before I get into my two questions to Jim? I just wanted to give him his flowers.
LT: No. Uh, just one quick thing. Um, we also have to mention our great friend Tim Spengler, who's also a connection with all of this stuff. But anyway, that's the only out I have.
DC: Thank you. Thank you. S Spangler,
Jim Trebilcock: He and his team helped negotiate the deal. Big time. That's why I brought it up.
LT: Yep.
DC: Thank you for bringing that up, Larry. Okay. First question. This was not my original question, but after listening to your introduction and reading it, Jim, you survived many different.
Corporate mergers, takeovers, acquisitions, et cetera. And you were at a senior level in marketing, you know, Jim, the CMOs get shot often and early. How did you survive and thrive in the [00:15:00] midst of all of these different corporate owners?
Jim Trebilcock: Well, uh, a little bit of luck, a little bit of talent mm-hmm. And having a great mentor.
Mm. Uh, my, uh, the guy who really helped develop me as a leader, not a marketer per se, but a leader and a business man, a guy by the name of Mike McGrath. Okay. Kept rising as well in the organization. Ah, and every time he moved, I. I moved up in the organization and eventually took over more. Now, when we got into, when we split off from Cadbury, yep.
I actually, there was a four year period of time I interviewed for the CMO role and didn't get it. Now I had a choice to leave at that point. Mm-hmm. And go someplace else. Mm-hmm. Or stay and run and report into somebody else who's CMO coming in from the outside, whose name I will not mention. [00:16:00] Uh mm-hmm.
But I stuck it out. And then another guy came in by the name of Larry Young is our CEO and he let go that CMO and hired me and asked me to put together a plan for the organization over the weekend. And Monday morning I was announced as CMO. But it, it took a little bit of luck, a lot of learning along the way.
And then, you know, uh, for me anyway, it was about having people that believed in me mm-hmm. And continued to support me throughout. Hmm. And Larry Young just rolled off the care, uh, ke Dr. Pepper board and, uh, is a, a tremendous businessman and another guy who grew up on a route truck and became CEO of, you know, one of the big three, so.
Wow. Wow. Yep. Wow. He had 50 years in the business 'cause he started at 16. Ah, [00:17:00]
DC: wow. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Alright, now I'm gonna get Larry, any response to Jim on that before I get to the question? Alright, Jim, I've never talked with someone like you in my entire business life and I've been waiting and this is the moment.
Jim Trebilcock: Okay.
DC: Um. I've talked with many people in the beverage business who have worked on the Sprite brand and their experiences after working on the Sprite brand. But few of them worked on the Sprite brand when it was a laggard, uh, with uh, I like the Sprite in you and also after the repositioning. Not that many people have been on both sides of that.
I've talked with people at 7UP who have been on the side when Seven Up was the behemoth in this country, in the Lemon Line segment. Uh, but not on the other side when it [00:18:00] started to lose. Uh, its, its footing. You, we may have to do another,
Jim Trebilcock: We may have to do another podcast on this 'cause there's a lot, there's a lot of materials.
DC: Okay. Alright, well gi give us the Twitter version. 'cause here I am. I'm a young, I'm a young pup, working on the Sprite brand, both the pre obey your thirst and post, obey your thirst. You are a young pup. You, you're leading, you are in a higher position than me. I'm senior brand manager. You're leading this from your view.
What happened? 'cause 7UP was like the big dog.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. So I, it's a, it really is. And I'm, yeah, it was, I actually studied 7UP, uh, it was a Harvard Business case study when I was going to MBA school. Mm-hmm. Wow. But it was when Miller owned 7UP. Okay. Ah, and that's, that's right. When Miller owned 7UP, that's when it started to really [00:19:00] have, begin to have its challenges because they did not under Soft, did not understand soft drinks.
And it's completely different than the, you know, the beer. Uh, yep. These are the same guys that drop made the bothers drop RC and take on Lite cola. And Lite Cola was differentiated because it was not caffeinated, and within 30 days, Coke and Pepsi had introduced caffeine-free Coke and caffeine-free Pepsi.
So differentiation went out the door. Anyway, that's a whole nother story, but Right. For context, 7UP was the lemon, lime and McDonald's early eighties. Mm-hmm. It was sold in all three systems. There were Coke bottles that sold 7UP. Oh yeah. There were Pepsi bottles that sold the 7UP. There were independent bottles.
DC: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: And a great product, but not, not without a lot of attention. The game [00:20:00] changer to me is when Coke woke up and said, we're gonna, we're gonna use our leverage with McDonald's and we're gonna take seven up out and we're gonna put Sprite. Into McDonald's. Mm. And overnight McDonald Sprite became, at the time, the only lemon lime and still only only lemon lime in national distribution at McDonald's.
It was instant sampling. It was instant credibility. Mm-hmm. Uh, it got, you know, and it was a huge energy. The other thing, and this is where I think, uh, DC and I will probably start sparring, is the, the marketing team, I think to this day. Uh, and I'm glad I, I see they've kind of come back to it, but they started to run, and I can't, I, you'll have to fill in the exact dates here, DC but with the Obey the Thirst campaign.
Which [00:21:00] largely, uh, connected on a cultural level. Yes. It connected on, uh, uh, like, yeah. Okay. I, I, I got it. It's about, it's about me. Yeah. And they, they rode that campaign with, and they used, uh, great stars. Yeah. Uh, mostly African American.
DC: Correct.
Jim Trebilcock: Uh, and which nobody had done to that point, uh, in the industry.
Right. Yep. So they created differentiation. They had a meaningful campaign, and then they spent the hell out of it. They got the's bottlers all fired up about it. Yep. And they executed in the marketplace. And, uh, were then for the next, I don't know what it was, 10, 15 years, they did not move off that play.
So there was a consistency to what they did. Right. Brilliant.
DC: Correct. That is correct.
Jim Trebilcock: It caused me so much sleeplessness. I can't tell you. [00:22:00] Sorry, Jim. Listen, this is true. I came in on the Cherry seven Up brand manager the year it was Product of the Year, a lot of energy. We were good. It was over 200 million cases of the trademark at that point.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Jim Trebilcock: I think it's below a hundred right now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so at the same time, I, I, I think I mentioned this to you, Larry, yesterday, I, I wrote this to the Linda Ronstadt, uh, song Tracks of my Tears because I cry every time I think about all of the things that happened over the last, then from 19 87, 19 85 to 2005 to ruin, had nothing to do with marketing, but ruin the brand, which was getting, uh, the Pepsi bottlers deciding, first of all, getting dropped in all the Coke bothers we had to find.
Distribution for, what was the number three soft ink in the industry. Think about that.
DC: Correct. That was number three. [00:23:00] That's correct. Number three.
Jim Trebilcock: You had to, you had to go find distribution and, and some of these places there were more goats than people and so there wasn't like a natural, uh, distribution arm there.
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: Then we got dropped there. Then Pepsi the first time got wind of it and they, were they in, they've introduced, I don't know, five, six, lemon lime. It's a joke. At least it's still a joke. Yeah. No, they, they still haven't figured it out. No. The latest story internationally, they owned 7UP internationally.
That's, but they locked us or forced people to drop us, so we lost distribution again. Then Andrew Newey in, uh, I believe late nineties, early two thousands, they finally said, if you're a Pepsi bottler, you get rid of this brand. And they did it. And it was the final group of bottlers that, uh, in the Pepsi system that were forced, forced, forced to [00:24:00] drop 7UP.
Hmm. And you, when you have a brand, uh, that is dependent on a DSD delivery system.
LT: Oh yeah.
Jim Trebilcock: And, and that's going into every store, every channel. Mm-hmm. And you get dropped and you have to, and in some cases we had to recreate a, a distribution system and Wow. Like with a share that was probably less than five.
There's no economies of scale, nothing. So you put all that together. On the, on the operation side, it killed the brand. On the marketing side, we have this brand over here called Sprite just hammering us. Right? Like a juggernaut. Right. Consistent, the whole thing. And the products are pretty close to being equal.
Okay. Yes. They're, there's not a lot of differentiating. No. It's not like Dr. Pepper, where it's completely differentiated, right? No. [00:25:00] So your ability to do that and, and you create differentiation, that was the whole charge, uh, for us in marketing, was to try to figure out differentiation. Well, right. Guess what?
There was a big problem. The consumer, our consumer base, and this is another billion move by, by Sprite. They got the, uh, at the time that I, I, I don't even think we called 'em anything, but they got the under 35 group. Yeah. All our consumers, we, I kept saying they're all our consumers are gonna die. Before I leave this company because they all, it was all old and it was seen as a medicinal brand.
It was what I took when I was sick and we were, we called it the Bob Factors. Bland, old, boring. And we, and we couldn't, we couldn't figure out and, you know, talk about failure. I, we couldn't figure out, and we didn't then the money thing, uh, we didn't have the resources to be able to go and [00:26:00] really build the brand back.
And it's still, it's a great trademark. A lot of heritage. Yes. But it's still 7UP and a great, but not great enough. You know, Sprite, I don't know who was doing it at the time, but they kind of went away from Obey your thirst for three or four years. And they're now
DC: Longer. Longer, Jim. They were, is that right?
They went away from it for longer. Yes. Yeah. Well,
Jim Trebilcock: they're back now and they're doing Yes. The only other brand that I can think of, which was also just accelerating at the time, that was very consistent and did the same thing. And that was Mountain Dew? Mountain Dew? Yep. Mountain Dew. That was a big competitor.
Yep. Uh, with Dr. Pepper because we were both caffeinated.
LT: Yep.
Jim Trebilcock: We were both differentiated in flavor, but they did a great job. And then, you know, sometimes marketers get full of themselves.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Jim Trebilcock: And so they think they're better than they are. They're gonna recreate a brand, they're gonna redo [00:27:00] the graphics, they're gonna over innovate on flavors and all this stuff.
And it's like, guys, you had a thing that was just cranking and they, it's, it's now, it's been declining and, uh, it's, it is a shame, but it sometimes marketers get so full of themselves that, oh, I've, I've gotta do something. And, and rather than just, you know, ramming it, like obey your source. So. Anyway, that's, that's, that's a long answer to the story, but, uh, it's, it, it, it's, it, it, it really should be two-sided case study of Sprite.
Mm-hmm. And what Coke did and what we did at 7UP. It would be amazing just to look at that because it's all about developing differentiation, investment, and then connecting all the dots from the brand down to what happens in a, you know, a convenience store.
DC: Well said. Jim, [00:28:00] Larry, anything to add before I, uh, transition us to the next section?
LT: Yeah, I, I, I have something to add quick. I, I, two quick things, Jim. It's so great that you and DC had the chance to do this because you're looking across at the person who really was the, was the engine behind Obey Your Thirst and everything that happened there, so, well, brilliant.
Jim Trebilcock: That's all I can say.
LT: So that's one thing.
Um, the, the other thing I'm struck with as, as Jim talked about, that perhaps one of the most, one of the most awful things that Jim inherited that in inevitably was, was the, was a big cause for the A seven up the climb was, I read this and Jim, please confirm this, that Philip Morris, who owned Miller, as you said, they, when they sold 7UP, they sold the domestic rights separately to the international rights.
So they sold the international rights to Pepsi, and then the seven, [00:29:00] the, the domestic rights went opposite. As soon as you split that, inherently you're gonna have two different, you know, parents who are, who are divorced and not together. Well, what, what happened? How could they manage the brand? Right?
Jim Trebilcock: What, what happened was in, uh, 1986.
Philip Morris wanted to sell the brand. Pepsi actually tried to buy the whole thing, and at the same time, Coke wanted to buy Dr. Pepper. Oh, wow. Wow. All right. Yeah. And the FTC stood in and said No way on either one. Wow. And as a result of that, the private equity group, SSON Haws, came in, bought Dr. Pepper and combined it with 7UP, but they only bought it for the US and so for seven up for us.
Yeah. And Pepsi wanted it for, because they were trying to compete with Coke internationally.
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: For the first two or three years we used to meet and, and regularly, [00:30:00] uh, uh, meet and, and try to develop joint marketing plans with 7UP International at PepsiCo. Mm-hmm. And then they decided that we didn't know what the hell we were doing, and they were better than us, and they went off and did their thing.
Now, 7UP in. And Canada is different than it is in Europe, is different than it is, you know, different marketing campaigns, different product. So I don't, you know, but anyway, that's how it all kind of came to be. But it was another complicating factor.
DC: Uh, Jim.
LT: Amazing stuff.
DC: Yeah. What a history lesson.
Before we move on, I'll just say this, while, um, we in Sprite world, were maybe the bane of your existence for 7UP, Brand Nerds, we want you to know that uh, Dr. Pepper is now the number two brand non-alcoholic beverage in this country. Second, only two Coca-Cola, and the number three brand is Sprite off by a couple of tents, uh, of, of, of [00:31:00] SharePoints.
And the bridge between the two is someone that Jim hired, which Larry referenced Andrew Springate. Yeah. Who was the CMO later at, uh, at. The, uh, I think at that point Dr. Pepper Keurig is what Yeah. Was called, called at that point.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. He was my, he was my lead, my lead marketer. And then when I moved into my final role, he became the CMO became, and I was, became CMO until about a couple months ago. So.
DC: Excellent. Uh, thank you for that. Jim Andrew, uh, spring Gate, who I call affectionately Gate baby, also worked on the Sprite brand. So we like to claim Jim, that he took some of his best learning from the Sprite brand and helped to apply it to the Dr. Dr. Pepper brand. That's a great story. All right, Jim, we're going to the next section.
It is called Five Questions. Larry and I go back and forth on our questions until we arrive at five. I began. What was the [00:32:00] first branding experience that you can recall? Let's go back, Jim.
Jim Trebilcock: All right. I, this was a, this was a tough one.
DC: Oh, are you ready to answer? Right? Go ahead, go. I'm go. I'm go.
Jim Trebilcock: I, uh, I, I thought about it and not because I was in the industry, but I think the camp, uh, the, the, the, the brand and the campaign that I remembered the most was when I was 11, and I believe it was 11, 10 or 11, one of the two.
But it was the Coke Hilltop campaign. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it, and it was one of the first examples of connecting to a cultural moment, which was the Vietnam War and all of the race, uh, issues that happened in the late sixties. Uh, and connecting in a way that made people feel better about themselves and about the brand.
And it [00:33:00] needed to be part, Coke needed to be part of your family. And that to me was, you know, when I think I was just trying to think of, I mean, there's been a lot of great campaigns, but that, that particular mo it was one of the first times I can remember a brand seizing on cultural relevancy and they did it brilliantly.
LT: Ooh, I love this. D what's your response
DC: Now you, you, you go, Larry, you go, I'm absorbing this.
LT: So I too, uh, was incredibly brought in by that campaign, and as Jim alluded to. Coke, the context of what was going on, not only in the, in Jim, in the, in the us, but the world. Yes. It, it was, it was turmoil throughout the world.
Yeah. And the whole essence of bringing people together, I think people were starved for that. And to be on a [00:34:00] hilltop with noticeably people from the whole world
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah.
LT: Was incredibly moving and brand nerds. The, the, the jingle in air quotes behind it, I like to teach the world to sing, was the, was the jingle that actually became a hit on the billboard charts.
Yes. That's how much, that was. Part of what Jim alluded to is the cultural zeitgeist of the time, and so. It made you feel, again, the feels d right. We talk about the feels a lot, Jim, uh, you know, the best marketing Yeah. About the feels. And it elevated the connection between what, sugar water to something that was grandiose and special, especially for young people.
It wasn't Bob, it was the opposite of Bob. Right, right. Bland, old and boring. And so for me, and everything you said that, that was, that for me too was one of the things where I actually noticed, wow. Advertising's [00:35:00] pretty cool. And that was an impetus for me to get into this business. It was, it was so cool at the time.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. To have a helicopter shooting up on a mountaintop with all these people of, of different races and ethnicities, colors, the whole thing. And it, it just, I every, it was like, whoa.
LT: Yep.
Jim Trebilcock: And, and I think of, uh, the, the emotional needs. And, uh, the pro, the physical need, right? The product kind of delivers that, but there's an emotional component.
You better win on at least one of those, but they hit it out of the park on both.
LT: Yep.
DC: Uh, Jim, what a great example, uh, Brand Nerds for you all who are not familiar with it. Go check it out. Uh, the, the commercial is called Hilltop, and Larry just mentioned the song, uh, as well, it was launched in July of 1971.
July of [00:36:00] 1971. Uh, Larry, you are right. Uh, the song did chart the original song, which was called, uh, uh, done by the Hilltop Singer. So these are the people that were, some of them in the ad, maybe some of them not. Got to number 13. And then it was re redone. This is Billboards Chart number 13. Um, uh, pop Charts.
Then it was redone by a group called The News Seekers, and it went to number seven. So this was like a legitimate hit, a, a legitimate hit. Jim. Um, you have now mentioned a couple of words twice, once, when describing what happened between 7UP and Sprite.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah.
DC: And then, uh, then you mentioned seven, uh, mountain Dew.
You mentioned this word as well. And then when you came back and talked about Hilltop and Coca-Cola, you mentioned these two I things, these two. One word you've mentioned multiple times is differentiation. Yeah. And how important that is. You've also mentioned the words culturally [00:37:00] relevant multiple times, and Jim one would expect to see someone like me on a podcast talking about cultural relevance.
Yeah. I'm sorry Jim. One would not expect someone looking like you on a podcast talking. And by the way, for the brand nerd who are not looking at this, and you don't know me, okay. Uh, Jim and I are around the same age. I'm here on this screen with a bald head, a beard, a hoodie, and a, and a and a uh, and a scarf around my neck, like an ascot Jim, and, and I'm Black.
Jim is an Anglo brother with a quarter zip and a golf shirt on. Okay. I just wanna explain, take the pictures of the brand nerd, Jim. How, how are you so into this? Cultural relevancy thing. What's up?
Jim Trebilcock: Well, uh, it's a, it's a great question, and I'm not, I probably won't do it, uh, that, that, uh, good of [00:38:00] justice, but, um, I, I al I, I, I mentioned I always try to hire people that are smarter than me.
Mm-hmm. Like Springate. Mm-hmm. Uh, but we had other people and Ryan Lair and the guys at the agency listening to people about cultural pieces. Mm-hmm. Uh, and what's happening out there and learning about that, um, is just really important. Now you have, I have to do it today with the agency that I'm working with Loud and Live.
Uh, they're all about being in culture. Mm. And, uh, it, it, it's, I don't ha, I've never. You could ask my two sons. I'm not a hip guy at all. Like, I'm the last on technology and I, you know, whatever. But I always had an interest in learning and allowing people to go and do it and, and find out and, and take some [00:39:00] risks in certain areas, uh, on, on being cultural up.
'cause you're not gonna make it every time you go do it. I mean, it's, uh, there is a, a hit or miss, but, um, you really, you, you and, and you have to bring people in around you to make up for what you want. You know what I mean? I like, I, it's just really important, the, the, that you surround yourself with people who can actually, uh, translate what's happening out in, in culture and then, and then be willing for me when I rose up to spend the money behind it.
LT: Yeah.
DC: Yeah. Uh, so, so Jim, I think you got two of the three exactly right? You're missing one that you did. Yeah. So the first one is hiring the people that know stuff you don't know. Yeah. The third one is spending the money, but in the middle is letting them do what they do and getting the fuck out of the way.
Excuse my French. And Jim, [00:40:00] that's what you did. So can you tell us the name of the person that leads the agency that you just mentioned?
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. His name is, uh, Nelson Aldo, and he was actually, uh, uh, my Hispanic agency lead on Dr. Pepper and helped us develop that brand and helped us build out shopper marketing.
But they run an experiential and, uh, multicultural business, uh, outta Miami. They do terrific work. Most people wouldn't have heard of 'em, but they do work with Walmart, McDonald's, new balance. Uh, Boston Beer General Mills. So they got credit. And it's nice for me 'cause as a retired marketer, I get to get in front of young marketers and talk to 'em about marketing again.
It's really fun. Nice,
DC: nice. Alright, Larry, if you don't have anything more, next question. Great answer.
LT: Yeah, that's great stuff, Jim. So Jim, who is ha who is had or is having the most influence on your career? [00:41:00]
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah, I, I mentioned his name earlier, Mike McGrath. Uh, he, uh, he, he actually promoted me into this little marketing role.
People thought I was a fool because I was vice president of marketing of IBC root beer, which was 4 million cases. Uh, and Welch's soft drinks, which we sold in the Coke system. Um, not maybe 20 million cases. And in the scheme of things, these are like infinitesimal brands.
LT: Right?
Jim Trebilcock: But, uh, he brought me in, he hired me.
He was ex Proctor and Gamble sales, wicked bright and the best salesman I've ever met. And he taught me the Proctor and Gamble way of selling, uh, which is persuasive selling. And then he taught me how to coach and develop people. And he did it by, so at that age, I was 30. I just be, I become a new father.[00:42:00]
Uh, and I wasn't very good at conflict. And as a marketer, or as a sales person or a business person, you're dealing with conflict all the time. And if you can't handle it in the right way, you're not gonna be very successful. Yep. Well, he, he had kind of a sixth sense of humor, but he would put me into positions that.
I really didn't want to be in and that were, he knew we were gonna be cataclysmic. So for instance, we were selling IBC Rupert concentrate to a bottler, and he was the only bottler in, in St. Louis. And the guy reminded me of the Georgia Bulldog. He was that old mean kind of butler type. You guys know what I'm talking about?
DC: Yes. We've worked with many of them.
Jim Trebilcock: You know, he barks the minute you come in the door. Well, I had to go in and give him a 30% [00:43:00] price increase on his concentrate. So Right, right. 30%. So I walk in there and I, I do this thing, and after a few F-bombs and, you know, kicking me out of the office and all that, I called Mike up and he goes, how'd it go?
And I said, well, I, he, he threw me out of the office and he just started laughing. He said, I knew it was gonna happen. And then he, he had, so he put me in a situation that was, knew, he knew we were gonna lose, but he, he put me in a tough, tough position to learn. Yeah. The other one he did is I had a guy working for me.
I, that was the son of the best friend of the CEO of Dr. Pepper at the time. Oh. And he wasn't, wasn't performing. Uh, and I was told to take him on and try to coach him and whatever, and it just wasn't working. And I had to fire him. And it was the [00:44:00] first time I'd ever fired anybody. And I'm telling you, I was, I was like a nervous wreck.
I was shaking, I was quivering the whole thing. But I learned from him as we were coaching, leading up to the event of letting him go and he supported the decision.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Jim Trebilcock: Even though he was gonna take heat from his boss, but. He taught me about how to have the, and, and have the conversation. He taught me about making it very, uh, human and, and talked about, uh, being honest.
Mm-hmm. But, uh, compassionate. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I found that to work, I've had to do a, a fair amount in my career, uh, let letting people go that either there weren't the right fit or they did something that wasn't consistent with the culture that I had. Uh, but it, it, it was always done with a sense of honesty and compassion.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, ultimately for [00:45:00] most people, they end up in a better position. Yep. But he was that type. I mean, it was just, but, and then on the toughest big sales calls, he went in and he led the call and being associated with that as a leader out front, you don't let, you don't send your people in. He, he sent me into this.
Little inconsequential bottler to sell a 30% increase. He didn't put me in front of Henry Shimberg at Coca-Cola to talk to him about Welchs and not dropping Welchs, you know? Yeah. He went in and did it, but he brought me along with it so I could observe, and then we talked about it afterwards. But he, he, he, and then as we went through, he trusted me and I trusted him.
He kept bringing me along until he retired.
LT: Love that D. Love that. That's great. Mike. Sounds awesome. D, you ready to hit the next question? I,
Jim Trebilcock: I want, I wanna say one more thing, you know about coaching. Yeah. Because I think, uh, the tendency is, what I've seen is people [00:46:00] think, oh, uh, coach and develop, they need to go to a training program or whatever.
Coaching and developing a person is when they're sitting in the office, your office, or you go to their office and you have a conversation. Around whatever the issue is or the opportunity is. And it is a discussion so that they learn how you think about things or how you see things. And then, uh, uh, more often than not, if you've got good people, they'll, they'll come in with a different idea that I haven't thought of.
Right. But that, that piece of it is a key developmental tool, and it's not pushing it off to a trainer to go do, right. It's you day to day having those conversations. And it takes time, but it's really important and very effective.
DC: Yeah. Brand, brand nerds, I, I'll say this real quick. These names that, uh, that Jim is dropping, these are [00:47:00] legends.
Henry s Shimberg is a beverage industry, bottling legend. He started. At a, at a, it was a small group at the time relative to other big Coca-Cola bottles called Johnston. Johnston. And then he went on to become president of what was called Coca-Cola Enterprises, which was the biggest bottling organization in the Coca-Cola system.
So Shimberg is a shim shimberg icon in our, in our business icon in our business. Alright. You've had a long storied career, Jim. Many successes. You're a humble dude. I can tell that you've, you've mentioned luck several times in your career, uh, but at some point you get all this stuff done because you're really good.
This next question has nothing to do with that. However, Mr. Trebilcock nothing. Okay. This question has to do with your largest juiciest Dans F up, and more importantly, what you learned [00:48:00] from it. What was this for you?
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah, so it is a sub component. Of my greatest failure, which is our discussion we had on 7UP not being able to figure out how to differentiate it.
Mm-hmm. But I joined the company in July of 1987. Mm-hmm. And we were the, the, the, we were owned by private equity and we were trying to figure out how to spend the next private equity payout and whatever it was, getting s and HAWS wanted out of the business. And so we were, we were, they were trying to get probation involved and there was a product, some, somebody in the lab, this 80-year-old, uh, guy that was still working in the lab, had developed this product and it was caffeinated and, um, uh, they, they served it up there.
We were run separately. There's Dr. Pepper and there's seven up and [00:49:00] the two sides really didn't get along at all. And so they, the, the CEO at the time, John Elbers, who's another legend, uh, served it up as a competition to see who would get the product to take it to market.
LT: Wow. Wow.
Jim Trebilcock: I was six months with the company, 29 years old.
I said, I'm in, I'm going for this thing. And I won the competition.
DC: Oh, wow. Okay. Be careful what you wish
Jim Trebilcock: for. So I, so I got, yeah, so I got this, I got this brand, I got this product. It wasn't even a brand at the time.
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: And I, I hadn't even tasted it yet. So we're, we're tasting it and I'm going, I don't even know what, what is this?
It's Cafee, it kind of tastes like a ginger r kind of tastes like a seven up. And so the decision was made that, and so this is like in December and we launched 7UP Gold April 1st. So 90 [00:50:00] days basically. Which was incredibly fast. Mm-hmm. Oh, we rolled it out in three big meetings across the country with all the bottlers, all the hype.
I mean, this was, this was gonna be the second coming of Christ. And I mean, it, it was, and all I had, I had to pull all the people together, all the point of sale people, the supply chain, everything. And it was, I pulled 'em all together and got this plan put together and we launched the product and it bombed.
And it bombed because, because nobody, once they tasted it, nobody knew what the hell it was. Mm. And, and then it left kind of an aftertaste, but my learnings from this, 'cause it bombed. I mean, we, we ended up, it was gone before the end of August. Right. And that was only because we were trying to fire, sell product.[00:51:00]
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: But I learned two things from it. One is knowing you're being asked to do something and played at the top because the whole reason why we were, we were launching this product wasn't because it was gonna be such a huge success, it gave them something to talk to Wall Street about.
LT: Oh.
Jim Trebilcock: And, and you know, flip to the next thing.
Okay. And then, but the other piece that I really learned about it is how you pull together cross-functional teams and inspire them against an impossible goal. Like launching a new brand in 90 days.
LT: Right.
Jim Trebilcock: And my ability to work and push with people, you know, Dr. Pepper at the time was a very, and it was all support people from Dr. Pepper that were in the marketing services area and supply chain. It wasn't seven up people, but my ability to sit down with 'em, uh, you know, get them on board with what the goal was. Work through problems and issues, [00:52:00] support them and, you know, ignite, uh, you know, uh, and get it done. It was a, it was well done in terms of the launch.
It was well done in terms of the packaging and everything else, and they made their deadlines. But that, that helped me so much. Uh, 10 years later when I was running SVP of marketing services for Cadbury. And when I became the brand manager and such, so much of, uh, of good marketing, you have to be able to know all of the details.
And like in a DSD uh, environment, you not only have to know your brand stuff, you gotta know supply chain, and you gotta understand how it's gonna impact the bottler and you gotta inspire the all, you know, the people in the route sales meetings
LT: Yep.
Jim Trebilcock: All this stuff to, to your points earlier around getting them to go and execute.
Uh, but understanding how you do that and do it successfully. Uh, it, it was a great [00:53:00] learning experience, but I don't ever wanna do it again.
LT: That, that is a great story. And Brand Nerds by the way, DSD is the acronym for direct store delivery. Sorry. And so the, the soft, most of soft drink, all soft drinks and, uh, beer are distributed by, uh, DSD, uh, distributors, whereas, um, most of the other things in the grocery store are in warehouse.
Just so people understand that.
DC: Yeah. Thank you, Larry. Thank you. Uh, well, wow. What, what a great, what a great answer. We're gonna go to the next question.
LT: Great stuff, Jim. Okay. So Jim, when thinking about technology, and, and I know you alluded to the fact that you're a Luddite, but, uh, you also, you also at the same time did some pretty amazing things, uh, as we alluded to in your introduction, uh, on the tech side when, uh, you know, when, when digital marketing was becoming really big.
So, uh, I think you can speak to very, very well on this, uh, question. So, can you tell us when, [00:54:00] when you're thinking about technology marketing, where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech, or you can take us to areas you think that they should be leery or simply avoid?
Jim Trebilcock: So, I think, you know, it, it's obviously been a, a, a huge impact across the, a spectrum of business and, and in particular marketing.
I go back to when, uh, when I became CMO, I mean, uh, Facebook, Google, uh, YouTube, all, they were still very much in their infancy. It's not that, you know, 15 years ago or whatever, 16 years ago, right. They were, they were still, they were still in their infancy. Yeah. Um, I think the, what I would recommend, and I think it's still applicable today, it's just, it's AI and it's Right, you know, some of the other things going on out there.
But, uh, the, the, the ability to always be open and learning, [00:55:00] uh, about the technology, about, you know, whether it's crypto or whether it's, you know, uh, Bitcoin and, and, uh, uh, AI always be learning. Um, and, and be flexible. I think some people, uh, as as they think about marketing, they, they get in and they, they're wedded to certain things and think it is changing so fast, and it's only, I can remember a curve they showed me, uh, that, you know, it's, it, it's gonna go like this.
Well, it went like this a lot faster than anybody realized back in, you know, 2005 to 2010. And so when you're in an environment like that and it's still continuing today, you, you can't get wedded to a certain thing. I think you have to, you have to find partners I think, that are very good at it, that you can learn from and then make choices about what you [00:56:00] want to have as an expertise inside your brand team or your marketing's organization.
Right? So we made the decision. I'm going back maybe 10 years ago. And again, having the right people around you, like Springate was really dialed into this stuff far more than I, we had another guy by the name of Robert Stone that was brilliant at it, uh, in the digital space. I mean, they, he lived on his computer at home and all this stuff.
And I, I, I think having those people around it, it, it's really important and letting them, uh, what they did for us is they set up these meetings. We'd fly out, I'd take my leadership team out, and we would go around and we would meet with Google, Yahoo at the time, Roku, uh, and other con the early content creators in LA with no agenda other than to show us new shit.
[00:57:00] Yep. And, and, and so that we could go back to 'em and say, okay, well let us go try that. Let's do this. And we became the guys that were known as. The ones that would go in, I mentioned earlier beta test and like, and it worked. And so we became very early on in programmatic buying for media, for instance.
Yeah. And now what they've done with TikTok and, and so again, what you said it earlier DC about the, uh, legacy of the college football and whether or not it's sustaining. Yeah. What I really like about what happened after I left or after even I wasn't CMO anymore, Andrew Spring gate, and I credit him a hundred percent with this, along with his team, took what they were doing in the technology and digital world to a whole nother level focused on outcomes, focused on content creation and delivery to a consumer to build a connection.
And it's part [00:58:00] of why the, the, the brand is so popular with, uh, under 30 age groups. Because they figured out how to do that, do it well, do it authentically. But again, it's, it all starts with learning and, and, and getting out and, and talking with the people who are the experts. I don't know. I mean, there aren't many brand marketers that I may be wrong, but that are really an expert in AI or a expert.
DC: Not, not many
Jim Trebilcock: program, right? Not many. I mean, it's like, I, it, so, but find people that are, you know, and don't, don't be afraid to say, I don't know. I don't understand this shit. Right? Help me understand, but I'm never gonna be like you. I'm never gonna know it. So here's what I need to do. This is what I'm trying to accomplish for the brand, and then go do it.
I, that, that to me is the p ai today. But the, the reverse of technology, and [00:59:00] I, I believe this very strongly is. If you rely, rely on technology and you have to today for a lot of stuff, you better also have the backside of that, which is relationships. Mm-hmm. And relationships with the people who know how to do it well or who are insightful, uh, or partners that know how to execute it very well or can come to you with new ideas.
If you have just the technology and don't have the relationship, you're missing out and it's gonna be short term.
DC: Love this. Well said, well said. Larry. Uh, any more from you? I wanna make one quick comment. Okay. Here's the thing, Jim, you said there aren't many marketers who are AI experts. You are exactly right about there about that fact, I believe.
And for those that are at the senior level, because they were, they are at the senior [01:00:00] level. They didn't grow up with it. So you have to go and hire people who know it, when, when, when you do not entrust them. All right. Last question, Jim, and then we move on to the next topic. What are you most proud of?
Jim Trebilcock: Well, this is a, this was a, an interesting one too. 'cause I think about it in kind of three, uh, three areas. Uh, one, first of all, my family, uh, I've been married, my wife 38 years. We started
LT: What's your wife's name?
Jim Trebilcock: Uh, Janet. And, uh, we met on a blind date when I was working for Coke, consolidated in Greensboro.
Wow. Got married six months later and moved to Texas and we've been down here. Wow. Uh, when I took the job, uh, we have two sons and they, they're doing amazingly well. Scott and Zach. And I now have a daughter-in-law and two grandchildren, which they just left us for Thanksgiving, so [01:01:00] Awesome. I'm very, very thankful for them and very proud of, uh, who they are and, uh, what they're, uh, what they're doing.
Um, I, you know, when I think about, uh, my, my professional life, um, uh, obviously the college football playoff, that probably, and the work that I put in there, and I talk about relationships, having personal relationships with the, with the, uh, each of the commissioners and with ESPN, ed Earhart, who was the president at the time.
Um, oh yeah. Yes. I leveraged, I leveraged those relationships. Rob Temple was another one that was key to helping us going at ESPN, but, um, when it came down and, and then I would say it was Tim Spangler and a guy by the name of Chris Magel. We were in the negotiations for the CFP and Coke was trying to do [01:02:00] get, get the CFP.
They had, I'm, they, they had the Home Depot thing, you know? Yeah, of course. They were. I'm going, holy shit, we're competing against Coca-Cola. I don't have that kind of money. And we put together the proposal and it went back and forth and, you know, we, we approached it from we're going to invest and we're gonna market the college football playoffs for you, ESPN, and for each of the commissioners, we're gonna make this thing the biggest sporting event ever.
And as a result, you're gonna help me with every retailer and every bottler in every town because everybody's got a college, a local college that they can get behind. And it was so important. I didn't wanna lose it either. I'll never forget it. I, for us, it was a big nut because it was over. $200 million. I think I had to get board approval.
DC: Oh yeah.
Jim Trebilcock: I had to go in front of the board, get board approval, and then at the [01:03:00] last minute, Coke went in and they laid down more money mm-hmm. To, to get it. And I remember having the call, we were in Babes Babe's Pork Barbecue Restaurant parking lot in Frisco, Texas. Chris Malo and me walking around with, uh, the, the guys at ESPN, uh, um, uh, his last name was Johnson, uh, working, he worked for Ed Earhart, Eric Johnson, EJ and negotiating.
They're saying, you, you, you're gonna have to, you, you gotta get on the phone tomorrow and tell 'em how you're gonna market this thing. Huh. So I, okay. So I did, and then I was told. I'm afraid you lost it. And I walked down, I walked down to my boss's office and I said, I think I just lost the CFP and [01:04:00] Larry Young to his, I walked back to my office and I didn't even get in my chair.
He wa had walked down from his office into my office and he looked at me, he says, you don't fucking lose that thing. What is it gonna take? And we cuffed, carved up another couple million dollars, and we came with another marketing idea. Wow. Uh, that ended up being Larry Culpepper. Uh, wow. And it won, and it went all the way up to Iger.
Wow. Yeah. Wow. So professionally, that was it. And then, you know, to see it now, where, and again, this is, this was, you know, mostly my effort at that point. Mm-hmm. But w with Deutsche and, and Ryan Lair and then Springate and his team, how they built out the tuition, how they did all that, that made it really special that, that it was a team that wasn't me, that was the team, and they just [01:05:00] blew this thing out.
The bottlers got behind it. They loved this program and they'd done the bottlers, did a great job in executing this thing. And then this is the week, this is the week of the Champ games. And you know, they'll be doing the tuition throws on Saturday. It's the best week of the year for the Dr. Pepper marketing team.
But that professionally, that, that, and then alongside of that is the team I built. The culture that I built, I had an assistant called Ava Boer, and she was in charge of culture and fun. And we built what we call a caring culture where for birthdays, all this stuff, but if people were sick or they had something going on with a child or whatever it was, we surrounded them and we, people stood up and they, they would help out.
And everybody bought. I mean, it was great. Uh, it was one of the, what,
DC: what was she responsible for again?
Jim Trebilcock: [01:06:00] Culture and fun.
DC: Culture and fun. Okay. Got it.
Jim Trebilcock: And she's a six foot tool. Six foot, six foot Venezuelan that has Unbounding energy and everybody loves Awa, but she would, and I called her my radar O'Reilly because she'd walk in my office and tell me what I was gonna ask her.
And I'm not kidding. Her name, her nickname was Radar. So, uh,
LT: What was her name again?
Jim Trebilcock: Ava Spooner.
LT: Ava Spooner.
Jim Trebilcock: Yep. Awesome. So, but she's, she can, yeah, she was, it was a great immigrant story too. But, um, anyway, and then the last thing I would say accomplishment wise was, uh, just some of the nonprofit work I'm doing right now.
Uh, this, this, this group Spoken, uh, which is a Christian organization. They translate the Bible into the local language. And why that's so important is two thirds of the world only communicate in spoken [01:07:00] language. There is no, there is no written language. And so when people would go over as missionaries and talk with them, they would talk to them in, you know, in written language.
It never went anywhere. And using technology now. They're using AI to translate the Bible and then they're able to use cell phones and digital, uh, recordings and so on. They started out with MP three players. But it's a fascinating group and they, it's more than just Bible translation. 'cause what you find is when you communicate with people, and that's a great lesson when you communicate with people in their own language or when you really connect with them, it opens up their whole world.
Uh, and it just, it brings their community together. They treat people differently. It's, uh, it's pretty remarkable
LT: Deep stuff, D. this Jim is amazing. It's awesome.
Jim Trebilcock: Very [01:08:00] fortunate to be on that board. But anyway.
LT: Awesome stuff.
DC: We're, we're, we're fortunate to have you on this podcast right now.
LT: Yes.
DC: Very fortunate.
LT: We, we ready to hit the, uh, the next, next segment.
DC: Let's do it.
LT: All right. Uh, so DC Jim, what's popping?
DC: What's popping?
LT: So, Jim, this is our chance to shout out, shout down or simply air something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fo for discussion. And you started to tell us and we said, no, no, no.
'cause your first few words was already interesting, so, all right, well, it, so hit us up with it.
Jim Trebilcock: All right. So, read a lot of articles, probably starting back about three years ago, four years ago, um, about how CMOs are becoming irrelevant and there are companies that are no longer having CMOs. And, um, I just, I think that's a bit [01:09:00] self-inflicted and I'll tell you why.
Uh, but I also think for companies, it's the dumbest thing that they could ever do. And I, I feel very strongly about this, so. In my world where I grew up and going back to General Mills days, uh, and, and, and certainly it didn't hurt to have that bottling experience of being in the sell selling function and so on, um, is I, the CMO needs to be more than a consumer expert.
They have to be the person that can talk to the supply chain because whatever idea they come up with, they have to be able to influence and affect the supply chain. They have to do the same with hr. They have to do the same thing, certainly with the selling organization. And I find too many CMOs today, and this is why I say it's [01:10:00] self-inflicted.
Mm-hmm. They're focused on the bright, shiny stuff. The, the, the, you know, kind of the consumer. Uh, consumer led the advertising, the, you know, the CFP maybe kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Uh, rather than taking the opportunity because you know, the consumer, the person who's actually buying the product, you know, better than anybody in the company what it's gonna take to be successful.
Mm-hmm. When it ultimately gets in the hands of a, you know, to get it into the hands of the consumer. You have, I mean, you and I think they've, today a lot of, uh, uh, CMOs either structurally or just because they don't like that stuff, have abdicated a seat at the table to have those conversations with people, to push sales.
I mean, I, I, I made our people, our brand marketers go out for a week [01:11:00] and spend it on a bottler route. Mm. And in the plant. To understand, you know, we were talking about being a bottler, a bottle sorter. Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I required them to go out and I encourage them to go out and visit with the field sales any chance they could and ride with them and talk to them and find out what was going on there, what was working, what wasn't working.
And the same thing with key accounts. Yeah. I wanted to be on the Walmart call or on the Kroger call and it, it worked well when I was commercial officer 'cause they had both marketing and national account sales. I forced it to happen and it worked very, very well. But I just think that, that, it's a bit self-inflicted, but companies that are discounting marketing right now, we're one of the main reasons and we can tell better now with measurement than ever before about driving [01:12:00] top line at bottom line.
The effectiveness of what we go do. And I just think it's very shortsighted and I think it's, it's really a bad conversation going on there about eliminating the CMO role.
LT: Ooh,
DC: Larry.
LT: I mean, Jim just stated it so well. I agree with Jim about it being self-inflicted too, and I, and I do believe that, uh, Brand Nerds, what Jim is alluding to, if you're just a marketing person, you say, Hey, I do, whether you're B2B or B2C and you do, I do my job really well and I'm just gonna stay in that silo.
That means you're not doing your job well. You, you really need to understand all the different facets of, of, of the company that you're working in. And really general,
Jim Trebilcock: general manager mindset.
LT: Exactly, exactly. The definition of marketing too is it, it [01:13:00] goes back to the funnel, but people forget the full funnel.
It goes from awareness to actually the purchase and repurchase of your brand. And so there's so many others involved in all of, of, all of that. And if you don't have a good handle and good relationships with that, the, the, the people who touch all the, all of the levels of that funnel, you're in trouble.
Yep.
DC: I hundred percent I can. Larry, uh, Jim, I'm glad you have spoken truth to power and that is there are many who are very powerful in our discipline marketing. Who need to hear that some of the issues that are happening with our discipline are self-inflicted. Yep. They're not all external. Some of them we, we are doing, Jim, Larry and I often say inside of our business and to our clients, that marketing is both art and science, and the [01:14:00] best marketers know how to balance both.
Yeah. You mentioned CFP and how folks may look at that, all of the glamor and glitz around CFP, what you all did from a campaign perspective. That was artful. However, putting in the hands of bottlers, a set of assets and tools that they could use to put alongside of a rightly faced. 12 ounce can, 20 ounce bottle, two liter bottle.
That is what caused Dr. Pepper to vault from where you all were climbing all the way up to now being number two. Yeah. It wasn't just a very important, very meaningful scholarship throwing of the football on national tv. It was the fact that that very, the very thing you're looking at a can with a hole on it and, and a and a goalpost was on every fucking [01:15:00] display in the country.
That's right. Yeah. That's why. Okay. CFP and Dr. Pepper did what did, now let me go. So that's art and science. Yeah. Art campaign science execution. We've talked about Obey your Thirst and Sprite. The sexiness was in all of what happened on the TV and in, uh, and in social media later on in social media.
What really happened was the NBA. A, as a tool, just like college football. Yeah. Was given to the bottlers in every place that you went, you saw a promotion around the National Basketball League, the basketball association. This is science. If you have one without the other, you're not going to win. And I agree with you, Jim and Larry.
Sometimes we get seduced by the sexiness and not enough seduced by the sales of it all.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah. I, you know, just a, uh, another kind pet [01:16:00] peeve of mine right now, and I call it the LinkedIn factor. Uh, there's a, a lot of CMOs that will go on LinkedIn and, uh, self-promote these great ideas. And then when you look at their business, it's in the shitter.
It's like why we used to have a, because we were competing against Coke and Pepsi, do the best marketers in the world. We used to have a, a philosophy of when we were hitting a home run and we were doing things right, we closed the door and laugh our ass off. There's a humility that is lacking in the marketer today.
Yeah, yeah. That, that causes you to keep learning that it's not about me, it's about the team and it's about the brand and the brand experience with the consumer. And I just, I think all this stuff ladders up, you know, and works, works against the marketer, but I, I'm, I'm all about being a humble marketer and being damn [01:17:00] good at it, and then enjoying the success.
LT: We're with you on that, Jim. You know, we DC and I always say it's all about the business. What do, what's best for the business? That's, that's our guiding light and guiding principle. Um, but I just to close the loop before we finish this conversation and before we get the learnings, I wanna say something too.
It is self-inflicted a lot of what you said, but brand nerds also. When you're in organizations, DC and I, were very lucky 'cause Coca-Cola, Jim, and you know this, having worked at Coca-Cola in the bottling system, everyone who touches Coca-Cola knows it's a marketing driven company. The marketing rules the day, there's very few companies that are marketing driven.
And so if you're in a company and a lot of folks in the tech world, you know, are sales driven and or finance driven, if your CEO is a finance person, you better figure out how you can speak to, to she or he in their language to make marketing [01:18:00] most relevant for what matters most to them. So that you're not, in a good point, situation where marketing is being poo-pooed.
You've gotta manage that far up and be ahead of the game as it relates to that. So that's my little soliloquy on the other part that's not self-inflicted, is to be more proactive.
Jim Trebilcock: It it, it is critical. Uh, and I throw the CFO in there as well. Yes. Right. It's just, uh, it's uh, it's absolutely critical that you meet them where they're at and help 'em.
Yes, your board as well, if you're a public company, uh, being able to get them on board with what you're doing.
LT: A huge point. Alright, Dee, you anything else to add before we, uh, hit to the close? Not a thing, Jim. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation. This has been so much fun. And what happens when we have such a fun conversation, it feels like we were talking for 10 minutes and here we are at the show close.
So I'm gonna posit my learnings DC will do [01:19:00] the same. And then, uh, um, then if you could, uh, hit us with a, with a, a quick learning that you had from this conversation, that would be great. I have a ton, so I'm gonna start and I'm gonna go as quick as I can. So number one. This starts everything when you meet Jim Trebilcock.
Relationships, relationships, relationships. That's number one. And by the way, with smart people who are experts in what you don't know, which are essential to marketing suc success, and this includes getting a great culture person like Ava Spooner his radar, O O'Reilly. So that's number one. Number two, Jim said this numerous times when you're in position to hire others, hire people who are smarter than you, than you and know things you don't.
It'll actually help you seem smarter too. Some people don't see that, but it actually does do that. That's number two, three, think of the groundwork and all the work that Jim and his team did to the last minute when they were told in the college [01:20:00] football playoff that they lost it. They still managed to scrape a few dollars and actually get the win and think of the fruits of that work that continued to this day, and dare I say, for many years to come.
That's incredible. Number four, sometimes the best moves you make are the ones that you don't like. When, when Jim actually didn't get hired to be CMO and he hung in there and he eventually became the CMO.
So sometimes you need best to be patient. That's number four. Number five, when you come upon a great brand position, like Jim said that DC and his team did with Sprite, stay consistent and execute. Uh, number six, B.O.B. bland, old and boring. Don't be that, but do what Coke did with Hilltop. If you read the Room of the world, the context that you're in, and figure out how your brand can be genuinely culturally irrelevant.
That's huge. Number seven, be honest and compassionate when letting someone go. And number eight, coaching and developing [01:21:00] foundation is actually the day-to-day conversation you should have with those that are working with you. It's not about, as Jim said, sending them to some counselor. You need to be doing that work every day.
I've got two more. Number nine, dare we say that leading cross transformational teams is a huge part of your success as a marketer, and you need to be able to influence and cajole all the different people in all the different roles in the company. And number 10, no matter what the latest tech is, always be open to learning and be flexible.
Those are mine.
DC: Those are fantastic. Larry. Wow. Jim, um, you, you are a deep brother.
LT: You are.
DC: Uh, we, we've, we've, uh, Jim, we've heard about you from Tim, uh, not just in the context of this podcast, but Tim, Tim s Spangler, brand nerds has talked about you several times in different conversations that, that we've had.
Larry and I have been looking forward to this [01:22:00] chat with you. You have, in my opinion, exceeded what were already very high expectations that we had in this conversation for you.
LT: Totally agree.
DC: You, you, you're welcome. At this juncture of the program, Jim, I make a valiant attempt and the attempt that I make, Jim is looking at the person before me and listening to them drop jewels.
I ask myself, what is it that this human, gifted human that I'm looking at before me and that I'm, I have the joy of listening to what have they offered and what are they offering the world that if they don't do it, we're not gonna get it in the same way it is theirs and uniquely theirs to offer us. And, uh.
This one was hard for me. Uh, Jim, you, [01:23:00] you, you, you were hard for me because there's so much to pick from with Yes brother. You, you, you, you are a, um, you, you have the depth of, of an ocean and the smoothness of a pond. It's, it's, it's uncanny. But I'm gonna make an attempt though. I'm gonna make an attempt, Jim.
All right, here we go. First up, Jim, you talked about 7UP and how you didn't like the way that it went down and, um, uh, you also gave the answer on the biggest f up on 7UP gold, and how that just did not work. I had to say. By the way, Dr. Pepper now is the number two non-alcoholic beverage based on share brand nerds in this country based based on share [01:24:00] brand nerds.
From 1985 to 1995, had Jim walked into anyone's office and said, Dr. Pepper is going to be bigger than Pepsi. They would've put Jim in a straight jacket and rolled him out in the street quickly. That's true. This, this was unfathomable, uh, brand nerds, yet it happened based on the leadership of Jim and others.
That's number one. Number two, as you talked about the college football, uh, program and playoffs that you've done, this is, as I I mentioned, up front brand nerds. This is one of the best, if not the best. Example of property and brand that I have ever seen. And I think what Sprite did with the [01:25:00] NBA when we were a partner with them was fairly goddamn good, but really good.
Not as good as Dr. Pepper and, uh, and college football, yet brand nerds. And Jill, when we talk about it, you quickly pivot to listen, Andrew Spring Gate and Ryan Lair, what they did with it and Robert Stone and what he did, how they continued it. You quickly got it off of yourself and gave credit, due credit to Andrew, Ryan and Robert and many others.
And many others. Number three. The story about Coke coming in at the last 11th hour, which Coke is known to do. You guys are known to do that too. And so is Pepsi. We're all guilty of it, trying to get a very sexy asset to market. But in this case, you guys, you were doing your thing. You met with the, uh, conference folks, the schools, the [01:26:00] network, all of these, uh, different constituents, and you have the meeting to talk about, all right, this is what we're gonna do with it.
And then you go, I, I lost it now. Brand Nerds. He kind of glossed over this part of the story. He didn't say when he lost it. Who, who was your boss's uh, name? Uh, what was his name of
Jim Trebilcock: Larry Young?
DC: Larry. Larry. Good. He didn't say, Hey, Larry. Someone else lost it. He didn't say, Hey, Larry, we lost it. He didn't say, Larry, I lost it, but this happened and that happened.
He said, I lost it. And then he walked out. He had not sat down yet. Larry followed him to his office. Brand nerds followed him, would not let Jim take the time to put his Dar air in his seat. And Larry said to him, you're not gonna lose this. That's not gonna [01:27:00] happen. So they cobbled together a couple more shekels, denarius, and they went and got it. Brand Nerds,
it would've been easy for Jim to say, Hey, you know what, that dude, Tim Spangler, he let, he let Coke come in and get it from me. That's what that guy did. He should have told me to, to begin with. He didn't do that. He stood tall, he took his medicine and said, I lost it without blaming anybody else. And then I thought I was done after that.
I really did. I thought, okay, well this, this is it then Jim. When we got to the, what's popping, and you talked about what we marketers are doing sometimes focusing so much on the sexy, but not enough on the sales. And you talked about these LinkedIn marketing folks who are going, they, they, they crow about what they've done.
They talk about all their words, yet they're businesses in, and I quote the shitter, okay. Their, their businesses in the shitter. And then, and [01:28:00] then you, you, you talk Jim about how you, all the way you and your team did it. If you had a win, you would go into your office, close the door and laugh. In the Coca-Cola world, Jim, what Larry and I were taught was celebrate quickly and move the fuck on.
Okay? This is, this is, this is what we were taught. Uh, to this day, Jim. My daughter who leads the marketing of our podcast, she's on here. You, you, you've, uh, you've met her. I think she has the toughest time trying to get Larry and I to talk about ourselves and what we've accomplished in social media. We just aren't comfortable doing that, Jim.
And we actually have statistics. Yeah. We've actually built multiple billion dollar businesses and brands with other people. You described yourself, you said, Hey, I'm just a humble marketer. That's, that's, that's what you said before you said [01:29:00] that. I said to myself, what is this guy? What, what is he giving that no one else can give and the way he gives it?
This is before you said that I described you and I wrote it down, the humble warrior of marketing, the humble warrior of marketing, and I want to talk to you now, Jim. About the attributes of a humble warrior that I have seen, not only through this interview, but I dare say your life. 10 things, Jim.
Unshakeable self-awareness. You know who you are and you know who you ain't. Quiet confidence, not loud. Ego, disciplined, resolve servant leadership mindset. This is why you are doing what you are doing in the oral descriptions of the Bible. This is [01:30:00] why you're doing this in a nonprofit. Radical curiosity, integrity as a non-negotiable emotional mastery, vision without vanity, strategic courage and consistency of character.
Wow. You, Jim. So first I'm gonna ask you your reaction to that, and then I've got a question.
Jim Trebilcock: Well, um, I'm not used to, uh, listening to be, uh, someone talking to me about those attributes. I mean, I'm, I, uh, I hate to say this, but I'm very humbled by that. I, um, I, you're very, uh, very generous. I think. Uh, certainly all those things, uh, are not perfect, uh, that, that I've done.
Uh, but, uh, I, I would say largely those are kind of the values that I was taught. My, my, my mother [01:31:00] taught me the golden rule do unto others as you have, you know, them do unto you. Um, and my father always told me, and he was a tremendous trial lawyer in Lansing, I mean. He went to Michigan, by the way, not Michigan State, but, uh, he, he was a, and his name is still on the firm in Lansing, but he told me when I was a paper boy, he said, do more than what's expected and, and do more than what's expected and be humble about
LT: love that.
Jim Trebilcock: And those things have been kind of guiding principles. So I would say, you know, that if, uh, if the people that have worked with me and taken anything away from the experience of being on our team, I hope that those are some of the attributes that they walk away with. And, you know, many of 'em are [01:32:00] leading in other organizations right now.
The reason why I like Andrew Spring Gate and there's others, there's Jack Alt, there's Cindy Oregon, uh, Kelly Freeman there, there's a bunch of 'em. Derek Debrowski still there. Uh, we had a philosophy of hiring really smart people who were good souls. Mm.
LT: Yeah.
Jim Trebilcock: And it, it, it works. I don't wanna, I don't wanna work with somebody who's an asshole.
Yep. I, I want somebody who's just a, a good person and we were able to do that. Springate is, you know, a great example of that.
DC: Alright, Jim, um, I'm gonna ask you a question that I have not asked one of our guests. And we've done, um, approaching 200 of these podcasts and I am also gonna answer the question after you answer it.
What is your favorite Bible verse and why?
Jim Trebilcock: Oh, wow. Well, that's a, that's a good [01:33:00] one. Um,
I, I would have to say, uh.
Man, I'm gonna, I may have to pull out my Bible here, but in John, uh, I am the lighter of the world. Mm. Uh, come unto me, and, uh, I I, I'll have to get it for you, but
DC: That's all right.
Jim Trebilcock: That's all right. It, it's, that's all right. It's, it's about, uh, finding light in your, in your life and in the world, and that, that, that light is Jesus and firmly believing that he is my Lord and Savior.
And it's, it's, it's, and, uh, there's a, there's a verse in Romans too, about what grace is defined as. Mm-hmm. And it's about God's, uh, [01:34:00] God's, uh, compassion for you. Patience with you, for screwing up all the time. His enduring love for you. He's going to pursue you throughout your life. And if we could all do that, it would be a much better place.
DC: Wow. Okay. Uh, wow. Alright. So that, uh, you've, you've answered my question. I I, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. No, that's, uh, that's alright. That's all right. That's that. That's John eight 12. There you go. That's John eight 12. Thank you. Mine is, is Romans 8 28. And, and what it says, paraphrasing is that, uh, not that happens to us is good.
'cause lots of stuff that happens to us as humans is bad. Yeah. But [01:35:00] everything that happens to us can be turned into good can, can be used for good.
Jim Trebilcock: Yeah.
DC: Those that love God and, and, and believe. That's my
Jim Trebilcock: Romans. I've, I've been reading Romans and I That is a, a it's just a phenomenal book in the Bible.
DC: Yeah.
Jim Trebilcock: Kind of a, a guide path for everyone.
DC: Yes. Uh, and by the way, mine is Romans 8 28. Your second one is Romans 8 38 and 39. There you go. There go. Yeah. Is Romans eight 30 and 39? All right. Brand nerds. I didn't mean to get this, make this thing all biblical and spiritual, but I just, I just felt like I needed to ask you that.
So thank you for that, Jim. Yeah. Thank you brother.
LT: Alright. So Jim, last, the last question before we, we hit the outro is, uh, what if, uh, what, if anything, have you learned from this wonderful conversation we've had
Jim Trebilcock: that uh, folks at Coca-Cola in marketing aren't all that bad? Good people, right? [01:36:00] First and foremost.
Uh, but, uh, I. I, I think what I took away is marketing is a, uh, it's a very, uh, special, uh, profession. I think, uh, being able to understand people, build relationships, uh, you know, it's not, I haven't spent a lot of time going over all these things over the last 30 some odd years, but it is, it's remarkable. It has led to a remarkable, uh, personal experience.
But I've met so many good people, uh, through it and through that experience. And, you know, we've talked, I haven't talked about a lot of these people in, in a while. And, uh, uh, it, it, it really, uh, uh, makes me pretty emotional. Uh, I love, uh, the fact that I, you know, God bless me and, and put me in, in this role, and [01:37:00] I got into the role.
After at Coke Consolidated back when they weren't doing so well, when the FBI was going through my office. 'cause I had replaced a guy that had just been indicted for price fixing. You can look at in Roanoke and uh, to, to, you know, go from that, the FBI to a job and getting married and having a family in Texas and the experiences I've had, I'm very grateful.
LT: Hmm. That's a great mic drop. And the people person that you are, that's, uh, and the humble guy that you are. That's awesome. So, Brand Nerds, we have hit the end here. Thanks so much for listening to Beats and Bytes, the executive producers of Brands, Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The podfather.
LT: That is he. If you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share for those on Apple Podcast. If you [01:38:00] are so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.