Episode 25 - The International X-Factor

In this episode, we answer the question, "What lessons can Canada learn from around the world to improve its accessibility landscape?" We explore the idea that our attitudes may do more heavy lifting than we think in making our environments more accessible.

Join Mihai and Maggie as they compare notes about their experiences with accessibility abroad. On their conversational voyage, they pass by mobile, visual, and auditory obstacles typically found in countries older than Canada as well as the benefit of space before arriving at the topic of the international X-factor: attitudes. While Canada may be a global leader in accessible environments, it may have more to learn about how treating others (and oneself) the right way can make all the difference in the experience of a disabled person.

Creators & Guests

Host

Mihai Covaser

Public speaker, fundraiser, and advocate for the Canadian disability community through various initiatives and across media. Aspiring lawyer and editor, producer, and host of Help Teach.

Guest

Maggie Manning

Outspoken advocate for accessibility and inclusion of people with disabilities as a person living with a physical mobility disability and chronic illness. Student at Thompson Rivers University pursing a dual-credential Bachelor of Health Science and Diploma in Respiratory Therapy.

What is Help Teach?

Join us in this community audio project as we explore the perspective of youths with disabilities, educators, and members of the general public on the Canadian public education system.

Cover art by: Stephanie McCann
Transcripts: https://helpteach.transistor.fm/

Help Teach: Episode 25 - The International X-Factor

[00:00:00] Mihai Covaser: Welcome, learners and learned alike, to Help Teach!
[00:00:09] Mihai Covaser: Hello, and welcome to our community audio project. I am your host, editor, producer, and project co lead, Mihai Covaser. I'm also a youth living with a physical disability. My most formative experiences living with a disability have come in the Canadian public education system. Many students like me with physical, emotional, or mental challenges go through their years of schooling lacking the supports and accommodations they need to partake of the same opportunities offered to their peers. The vision of this project is to provide educators in Canadian classrooms, students with disabilities, and members of the general public with the tools and knowledge that they need to make our institutions more accessible and inclusive for all. Join me and a diverse cast of guests as we explore perspectives on disabilities in education in this podcast series. One last message for you teachers tuning in. Listen in each episode for our key takeaway that you can implement in your classroom today to help us further this vision.
[00:01:15] Mihai Covaser: Hello and welcome back to Help Teach! I hope everyone's been having a great summer so far and that you're staying safe and cool wherever you're listening. I also want to take a moment to thank you all for your patience with my releases. I've moved to a bit of a bimonthly schedule over the past few months because of school and taking some time off with the family. But we should be back to your regularly scheduled programming once again come the fall. Today, I want to take a bit of an unconventional approach to the discussion and ask the question, What lessons can Canada learn from around the world to improve its accessibility landscape? Having just returned from an international experience, the importance of appropriate attitudes and motivations in approaching accessibility has really reasserted itself to me. Moreover, I believe other countries are showing us that we can harness those attitudes to make up for what is lacking in our physical environments. Joining me today to discuss this is the ever-eloquent Maggie Manning. Maggie, welcome back to the show.
[00:02:26] Maggie Manning: Thanks, Mihai. I'm so excited to be back!
[00:02:29] Mihai Covaser: I can't think of anyone better to come on and talk about this with me. I mean, you have quite the plethora of international experiences under your belt; you said you visited 19 countries?
[00:02:41] Maggie Manning: Yeah, I'm very fortunate to have had a lot of experience.
[00:02:45] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, so this is going to be a great discussion! And we're sort of going to take this in two parts here, starting to talk about what some of you might already know, may not, if you haven't had the chance to really get out of the country, which is the differences in physical environments typically between Canada and some other countries that Maggie and I have experience with. And then I'm going to tie that back to this idea of attitudes and how we might be able to almost leverage attitudes to make environments better for us and how some countries might already be doing that. So Maggie you and I we have some pretty common experiences as far as traveling and accessibility. I think we both primarily look at mobility and I think it's fair to say that ease of mobility pretty universally falls as you get outside of Canada, wouldn't you say?
[00:03:41] Maggie Manning: Yeah, I definitely think so. Just, you know, even thinking about the age of some of the other countries compared to Canada, I think that's a huge part of it as well.
[00:03:49] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah, exactly. As, again, some of you might know, as you get out into older cities, even within Canada, if you move out East, you start to see a lot more of this. Things like cobblestone and, and, you know, smaller sidewalks or no sidewalks; that's probably one of the bigger ones for me too. Just walking on cobble versus asphalt, it's tougher for sure.
[00:04:12] Maggie Manning: Yeah, I think so. And I think almost anybody can relate to that too, even like when I travel with my friends, they're like, man, this takes a lot out of you.
[00:04:18] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be a lot more careful there and in particular, so I should have mentioned, I just got back from France. So that's really what I'm going to be relating my experience to. And spaces get small very fast as you move into Europe. I'm sure you had the same experience, Maggie, but, the more equipment you have, the harder it is to get around in Europe, I would say.
[00:04:44] Maggie Manning: Yeah, for sure! I mean, even just like, like you were saying, like the spaces, like the hallways, the bathrooms, the rooms, everything gets super small. So, I know for me and my experience with Europe, I've been a couple times and just like kind of reflecting back on before I was disabled to now when I'm like an ambulatory wheelchair user and just the differences and what we've had to look for for even accommodations is definitely a big deal.
[00:05:11] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, I asked you before we got, you know, on the mic. I asked you how it works to get a wheelchair into a bathroom in France, and you were like, “you don't!”
[00:05:22] Maggie Manning: You really don't. I'm very fortunate to be able to be ambulatory, so I can, you know, leave my chair outside the bathroom and get up and go to the washroom, but I know not everybody's as privileged in that and really have to, you know, look for a place that's accessible.
[00:05:35] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah, the other thing too, this is, this just happened, I, you know, I don't have a ton of equipment, like I brought a walking stick with me when I went because I knew we'd be doing quite a bit of that, but that was the extent of it for me, but getting a car, even, I don't know if you are used to like renting a vehicle when you get out there, but their biggest SUV that they're like, wow, you want like a big car is like smaller than a Nissan Rogue, probably. Like, it is not big. Have you done that before? How do you fit equipment into a car?
[00:06:07] Maggie Manning: Honestly, I the only experience I've had, I've normally just brought crutches because it's so hard to get, like you're saying, like the biggest car is like a roller skate, like it's so tiny. And I honestly couldn't imagine getting my chair in there. I know for like, when I have brought my chair overseas, like to Thailand or whatever, we usually like, it's a sport event that I'm going to. So they have like a bus or something where there's like, or a U -Haul or something where we can like actually put our chairs in the back because there's no way you're fitting it inside a vehicle.
[00:06:37] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. Yeah. Especially, , I know Peyton, for example, one of our other friends does wheelchair racing. And those are specially designed, right? Like they're long chairs. And I'm sure you can disassemble them. But like, even so I can't imagine you fit anything other than that in the back of most vehicles in Europe.
[00:06:58] Maggie Manning: No way. And then you've got your luggage and everything else.
[00:07:00] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, one thing that people might My comment on is distances are shorter there, that is for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easier, just because it takes longer to get over, like, again, cobbled streets, or what have you. I don't know if you felt that, but it's, that's a, you know, pretty common, like, discussion, or even, you know, Comedians often talk about this as like, oh, , there, if you're in the neighborhood, it's like a two, five, ten minute walk is like, kind of far getting outside of it. Here, like, half an hour drive is in the neighborhood, you know? So.
[00:07:37] Maggie Manning: Yeah, that's so true. If you just even think of the relative, like, landscape of Canada versus Europe or Asia or whatever it is. It's definitely shorter, but you know, I'd rather, I'm not one to, to be happy about walking, but I'd rather walk a little bit further if there's, you know, some barriers, some stairs or whatever it may be. I'm definitely going to be taking a little bit longer route to get around that.
[00:07:58] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. One thing that I noticed, and I first actually noticed this in Quebec when I went to visit is what some of the first things to disappear as soon as you move out of like a main city center, like, you know, downtown Montreal, as soon as you get outside of that, even on the island, but, you know, outside of the island. And in France is the same thing. As soon as you move out of like Paris, like center, some of the first things to go are auditory crosswalk signals that was a thing that like kind of surprised me, you know, because I'm so used to it I just take it completely for granted but I was standing there with my family we're walking around Quebec and we look and you know We didn't know how long this the the crosswalk sign had been green because there's no there's no noise! And I just didn't even think about it until I got there.
[00:08:51] Maggie Manning: Yeah, I know even like coming from a small town like we didn't have those when I was growing up and then I remember going to the city in the first time hearing them I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like, such a cool" and it's not just for people who are it's you know, visually impaired or whatever it may be. It's for everybody. Like you don't realize how much you actually use these things until they're not there anymore.
[00:09:10] Mihai Covaser: Yeah! Yeah. And like you say, small towns in Canada suffer the same thing. Like it's only, and I suppose it makes sense in a sense, right? If you're talking about like funding and getting these things together, it's the big city centers that are going to have them. But in Canada, even like Kelowna is a pretty big center in British Columbia, but you know, it's not as big as like Vancouver or something. Even Kelowna has it, right? And so it's easy to take for granted. I found anyway.
[00:09:40] Maggie Manning: Oh, no, totally. I agree. And like I said, like, where I'm from now, we have them everywhere. Like, I don't remember the last place I visited in Canada that didn't have audible crosswalks anymore. But yeah, you don't, really realize they're not there until they're gone.
[00:09:52] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. And the same thing goes with like, I don't know the proper name for this. I don't know if you know it, but like the textured sidewalk exits or at the tops and bottoms of stairs where, you know, you can feel--- it's a physical indicator that a stairway or or like the end of the sidewalk or something is coming up also, you know, disappear pretty quick. Like, I don't think there were any even in Paris when we went to visit.
[00:10:19] Maggie Manning: Yeah, and that's just a mobility kind of aid that I use and I wonder like what it's like if there's like we're talking about cobblestones like I wonder if that's even a thing like if you'd be able to differentiate because everything's so bumpy?
[00:10:34] Mihai Covaser: So that was an interesting thing because as I've traveled more I think vision impairment really tends to suffer the quickest like I think mobility supports, maybe more people can use or do use that are abled bodied, if that makes sense. You know, a bigger sidewalk or like a flatter street helps anybody, but the visual aids tend to disappear quickly because it's not as many people that that realize they're making use of them, , that are able bodied. I don't know if you, if that makes sense to you, but…
[00:11:11] Maggie Manning: Oh yeah, no, I totally agree! And just, you know, the sheer number, like when you think of accessibility, what, not everybody tends to go towards like mobility and ramps and curb cutouts and stuff, but it's not as common to think about different types of disabilities, whether it be vision or auditory or what have you, it's definitely kind of an afterthought sometimes. So, I think that's very valid to say.
[00:11:32] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, and you know, maybe this is a conversation for another time, but don't get me started on the traffic. I mean, France is one thing, but you've been to Southeast Asia, how did you cross the street, is my question.
[00:11:47] Maggie Manning: Honestly, just close your eyes and pray! You just have to be aggressive, you start walking and you don't stop walking because they're going around you, so you got to be careful. You know, one of the things that I've noticed, especially with the built environment, particularly in Asia and Thailand, I had the opportunity to go when I was younger around fifth grade, and this was before I was disabled. And so, I was walking around, you know, doing things. I was very much not mobility impaired. So, I'm very thankful for that experience. I got to go back this last fall for a basketball tournament. And, It was quite eye-opening if I do say so you know, no curb cutouts, very uneven streets so much so that you often have to get help from others. It was very eye-opening and just being like, I was here before and I didn't really notice all these things. And now that I'm a wheelchair user, I was like, oh man, like there's so much going on. Yeah. But I would be very hesitant to cross the street now with being a wheelchair user compared, especially being lower down.
[00:12:51] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I can imagine that would be, that would add a level of danger to that. That takes us really well into kind of the overarching theme of the episode here, which is that you mentioned, , assistance, and you can't do certain things without being helped, but all that being said about, you know, we have a lot to be proud of in Canada, of our built environments and how everything is put together and how accessible it really is physically in part, as you say, because it's newer. And so, these things are built that way from the start, but some of these things I found these obstacles that we've identified are actually felt less in, for example, some other countries like France, then they are in Canada. And that's because of one key difference that we're going to get into, which is the attitudes of the people that you meet in those places. And in those experiences, we're going to get to that conversation in just a moment. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
[00:13:59] Mihai Covaser: Welcome back to Help Teach! I'm here today talking with a familiar voice, Maggie Manning, and we're just getting into this idea, this what I call the X-Factor, that links these international experiences together, which is attitudes. I want to let you talk a little bit about this, because you have a bit more experience than I do in different contexts, but I find that often the degree to which a built environment affects someone, me, for example, is a ratio between the difficulty of the obstacle itself, and the degree and kind of assistance that you receive when you're interacting with it. And that was something that really occurred to me on my recent experience, but I want to let you talk a little bit about what you think of that, if you think that's true and, and maybe some examples that you have.
[00:14:55] Maggie Manning: Yeah, for sure. I think I definitely agree with you. I think not only of the attitudes of people around you, but also your own attitude, you know, are you ready to go and explore and kind of do everything you can to make a place that's maybe not super accessible, accessible to the best of your abilities? And that definitely plays a role as well. The biggest example I have of this is like I was saying, I went to, it was actually world championships in Bangkok, Thailand. And, although it was eye opening with all these, you know, mobility barriers that I was faced with whether that be lack of curb cutouts, you know, these big old chunks out of the sidewalk that it would be tough to get across, even if you were walking or, you know, just not even having anywhere to get off of like a sidewalk. And so, you might think about this and be like, oh my gosh, how do you even get around, but one of the things that I really noticed is the people, the attitudes of people around me and just their willingness to, you know, go out of their way to help you. It's not even a second thought and it's very genuine. It's not like "I need to hold this door because you're disabled, and you really need the door held for you". It's "please let me help you because our environment isn't built for like this, but we're not going to let you not have these experiences", you know. So one of the things for example, we just wanted to go to the local 7 Eleven down the street, get some, you know, cool international snacks to bring back for friends and family. And so, we make our way there, lock curb cutouts, the ramps are like literally 90 degrees. Like there's no way you're getting up them without help. And I mean, I'm pretty strong in my wheelchair and, but no way, Jose! And then it's humid too. So that makes it harder to like push your wheels cause your hands are all slimy, but I wheel over there and we get to the 7 Eleven and there's probably about six or seven of us in wheelchairs and we just look at the door and there's like this huge curb that like you can't even pop to try and get over it and there's no way around to get into the 7 Eleven other than up the curb and luckily, you know, like I was saying earlier, I can kind of stand so I, you know, had just got help up the curb and then somebody lifted my wheelchair up and I was on my way. But that wasn't the case for the other six or seven people. And so, you know, there were so many people in the store who just like ran out, picked us up in our wheelchairs, got us up. And it was like, no big deal to them. They went on with their day. And, but for me, that was a huge deal because I got to, you know, have the experience I wanted, and it really didn't feel like I was a burden to anybody. It just felt like I was, you know, just there to have an experience and they wanted to help me with that. And I just, I think that that's vastly my experience with traveling is people just having this attitude of wanting to help and not because they want to make themselves feel better. They want to, you know, they need to help because they have to, but because they're really there and really want to.
[00:17:35] Mihai Covaser: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, at the risk of surprising some or shocking some people, I'm going to say something. you know that I wouldn't have expected to say before going there with the new perspective that I have and really focusing on these environments. But France in my experience was honestly better than Canada as far as these attitudes go, because while don't get me wrong, Canadians are super nice. We're known for that, of course. And, you know they are very helpful, especially when you ask. I think the difference is like you say, it really felt like it was Like a natural part of the way they interact with people where they would walk up, say, "Oh, we noticed you walking around. If you need an elevator, it's right over there. Bathrooms over there. If there's anything we can do, let us know." And it's just very like, it's quick. They don't assume they don't like to grab your wheelchair and start pushing you around. But they, they say like, "listen, we're here. We're very like active in helping you. And as soon as you know, we can help you get through a crowd or through a line or whatever." They just do it like that. I don't know, to be honest, where it comes from. I don't know if you have an idea on this, whether. that's part of like a different training regime, or if they just have like a different outlook on it, but it's very respectful and very motivated. Those are the two words that I would use. And it really makes a difference, you know, in how difficult an environment feels when you, when you know that these people have that attitude toward you.
[00:19:02] Maggie Manning: Yeah, I totally agree! I think that that's a great way to put it. One of the things that I know we talked a little bit about it before the episode started, but one of the things is like, you know, getting into museums and different things and just, they're so ready. And that's something that I think is even more so than in Canada. We’re working on it and getting there. And I don't think that we're in a bad place by any means, but one of the things that I noticed like in, in Europe, for example, is like wherever you're going, they're just, they're really, ready to approach you and ask you and just like let you know that they're there and these are your options and especially like bringing you to the front of the line, just little things like that they, they, we might not see as much in Canada. I think that they're definitely just on the ball and ready, but I didn't find that it was pushy. I know that. It depends on who you ask, like, some people don't, they don't want their disability acknowledged, they just want to, they'll ask for help if they need it, which I totally respect, and there's some people who would, are just a little bit more afraid to, you know, ask for help, they don't want to burden anybody, and so, you know, being asked that is really helpful, because then they can be like, yeah, I just, I need this, this, and this, but I just find that they were very on it, but it was, you know, Pretty much a "let me know if I can help you." They're not just, you know, pushing it on you, like, “we're going to do all this for you.” Yeah. I really appreciated that.
[00:20:14] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. And, and what really surprised me that you told me as we are getting ready here is that that is some, that, that is almost universal. Like of all the places that you've been, most of them have that and, and seem to be further along this, if we want to call this like a scale of attitudes from like denial and disrespect all the way up to this like respectful and appropriate kind of conduct, most of them are up that slider, you know, and, and it shocked me too, right? Because we think of Canada as very again, a very new country. So that's some great opportunities to make their environments. And we have a lot of programs that are really pushing for accessibility, but it seems that a lot of places, even places you might not expect, are further along up that slider, which I just thought was surprising, you know?
[00:21:04] Maggie Manning: Yeah, it definitely is surprising, but I don't think that Canada is necessarily doing a bad job by any means. I just think that it's very much, , you know, a cultural thing as well, and just being able to, you know, You know, reach out. It's not just people who disables people, maybe aging populations. Maybe it's you know, younger populations, but they're just, it's just an attitude that has really been helpful to my experiences as a disabled person.
[00:21:29] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. And something that, that you said, and that I indicated at the beginning would be kind of a focus in this episode is using that as a tool. to improve the outcomes of physical environments. And one thing that I thought that might be the case is that especially some of these places, like you said, Thailand or a place in South America, you mentioned you traveled, they are supplementing the deficit in the physical environment with their attitudes and their support. That might come as a natural response when you really need it, like in places where the built environments are poor, that's just the way they've adapted to be supportive. But what I asked in the beginning is what can we learn from that in Canada? And I think I you know, I don't know what you think about this but I think we might be able to adopt a similar mentality where even though we're doing well, we can make our environments feel even better by applying this attitudinal model.
[00:22:36] Maggie Manning: Oh, yeah, I think that, you know, that's just kind of like the cherry on top. You can do as much as you can to make the built environment great. And obviously, that's what we want. We want to an environment that everybody can access. But just to add on to that is, you know, those attitudinal barriers that you might have to break those down as well. And that's not something we maybe focus as much on because we're always so, you know, let's build ramps and let's build, door opening buttons, you know, just things like that. But also, your attitude really matters! And I think that's a, there's a great example of that across, you know, the world. And not that we're doing a, like I said, not that we're doing a bad job of it. I just think there's areas where we can continue to push. And in those places, like you were mentioning, like the older places like Quebec and that have these cobblestone places, and these places are on the less accessible side of things, you know, having those attitudes where you're not turning an eye when you see someone who's disabled, things like that, it actually will really contribute to making an environment more accessible, and I don't have any bad memories, yeah, I know that Thailand wasn't accessible, I keep using this as an example, I really didn't have like a bad thought or a bad example of the accessibility because everybody made it accessible, even if the build environment wasn't.
[00:23:49] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, that's really, that's an interesting thing to focus on that you can recognize the environment is less accessible, but you don't personally have a bad thought about it. That's a really interesting point to make. And, and that takes us really well into wrapping up the episode and of course, this is an episode, this is a show about education and about Canada. But when we talk about universal design, which we've talked about a number of times on this show, ways to kind of build an environment with certain key tenets in mind that make it accessible for everyone. This attitudes thing, seems to be perhaps even more universal in the sense that if we can think as whether you're a teacher, whether you're just, whether you, no matter the job you work, whether you work in an institution, a hospital, whether you are, you know, just a parent that is, you know, trying to make places more accessible for your kids, understanding that these attitudes can shape and reshape an environment to feel completely different, regardless of the level of accessibility that it's on physically, I think that's really key. Like you said, and even your own attitudes, like if you're trying to help some young people who with disabilities to really have a positive outlook and a and a constructive outlook. This is a great way to do that. And I realize now that I'm very fortunate to have had that, you know, people with positive outlook and with who look at my potential and who say, "how can we get around this? How can we, you know, what can we do? And how is this? How can we make this okay, and a good experience for you, regardless of the things that are already here?", rather than "Yeah, these things are here. And therefore, it's going to be bad for you, because the obstacles are there."
[00:25:40] Maggie Manning: Totally. Yeah.
[00:25:41] Mihai Covaser: That being said, I mean, you mentioned this yourself, we are still a newer country, and we have great potential to build things right from the start, which I think is important to keep in mind, right?
[00:25:53] Maggie Manning: Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, I just, going back to that point, I think that one of the things like you're saying positive outlooks. I grew up, like my first five years I was totally in body casts, and I don't remember that at all because my people around me were so positive, you know, just, you don't even remember the bad things if people, the attitudes around you are supportive and positive.
[00:26:14] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. Yeah. Again, that doesn't detract from the fact that we should be building things right from the start, right? Like we're always going to advocate for the new things we're building to be built with accessibility in mind from the beginning so that we don't have to retrofit, and we don't have to worry about the environment. But yeah, I think you and I both have realized that as you go and you expand into other contexts, there's some valuable lessons to be learned about making the best of a situation. This X-factor, as I've called it, these attitudes really presented themselves to me in a new way. And I'm glad that you've had the same experience and that you can come on to talk about it.
[00:26:55] Maggie Manning: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure as always, Mihai!
[00:26:59] Mihai Covaser: Thank you very much, Maggie.
[00:27:03] Mihai Covaser: You've just heard another episode of the community audio project, Help Teach. I'd like to give a huge thank you to my other co-leads on this project: Peyton Given, Maggie Manning, Élise Doucette and Alexis Holmgren, all youth leaders at the Rick Hansen Foundation, who I'd also like to thank for their continued support in this initiative and others. My name is Mihai Covaser. I am your host, editor and producer for this podcast series. Thank you to Every Canadian Counts and their # Rising Youth Initiative for funding this project and for allowing us to put out our vision for change into the community. You can find all transcripts, episode notes, and links to other resources on our base site, helpteach.transistor.fm, or listen to us wherever you find your podcasts. If you have any questions about the show or would like to get involved, now get in touch at [e-mail]. Tune in next time for more great conversations and key takeaways that you educators can implement in the classroom today to make it a more accessible and inclusive classroom. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time!