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Brought to you by the founders of Chubbies (9 figure exit and 10-figure IPO) and Loop Returns, Tom Montgomery and Preston Rutherford have a single goal with this podcast: Give you new information, lessons and learnings, translated into specific tactics you can employ TODAY at your brand to help you build the strongest brand possible, which if you build that strong emotional connection, ALWAYS translates into more profit, if done well. It's our job to help you do brand building well.
You can expect 3 things from the podcast episodes:
1) share the best brand building knowledge from the best books on brand building,
2) talk with the founders and operators building the best brands today and
3) share share all our mistakes, lessons we've learned along the way.
After ever episode, you'll leave with 1-3 actions you can apply today, as informed by the best brand builders in the world (not us), our mistakes in building a brand that had an IPO, and founders of the world's best brands.
Tom (00:01)
Welcome to the Brand Builders podcast. It is me, your co-host, Tim Mint-Gimory, sorry, correction, Tom Montgomery. And I am here with my esteemed co-host and colleague, Preston P. Ruthy-Ruth Rutherford. Preston, say hello. Preston, how's life? One word answer. Great. Good.
Preston Rutherford (00:08)
Thanks for watching!
Hello, hello, thank you. Hello, hello, I'm very happy to be here. Hello, yes. Life is great. Good. Hehehehe.
Tom (00:30)
Excellent. Well, thank you for that, Preston. Today we are going to continue our explorations of how to build brand in this day and age and how to do so with a performance marketing mindset. And that's, as you all know, that's what we're here to do here on the Brand Builders Podcast. So buckle up, hold onto your butts and get ready for a wild ride.
Today, we are following up on our last episode, and who knows if there's gonna be continuity in our episodes. We may be releasing these sporadically, we may be chopping them up for content to slang everywhere else. But last episode, if you're listening and there is a canonical history of this, we talked about Kellogg on branding in a hyper-connected world, a book that was formative.
for how we approach things in the early days of Chubbies as kind of young, wet behind the ears whelps. We've done a couple of dives into this book and we're just kind of going sequentially through it, pulling out interesting tidbits. So this was on section two that's all about branding. Sorry, I need to look back up the exact title of the section because it is on.
Preston Rutherford (01:46)
some of that brand stuff.
Tom (01:50)
Kellogg on branding is about branding. I think it's about brand design. Is that right? Am I right on? Oh, bringing your brand to life. Section two, bringing your brand to life. And so in here, there were a lot of really kind of meaty sections, or meaty chapters. Bringing your brand, brand design and thinking. Leveraging touch points in today's branding. Connections between the brand and the self. Building strong brands through advertising and digital advertising in particular.
Preston Rutherford (01:58)
Section 2.
Tom (02:20)
digital brand storytelling and then a piece on branding services in the digital era, which we didn't spend a ton of time digging into, but all about kind of the how to architect and craft brand. And so that's what we're going to talk through is Kellogon branding's take on how to architect and craft brand, what it's like kind of the modern toolkit.
how to infuse storytelling, how to think through your audience's psychology as you're building content and narratives for them to kind of latch onto. And hopefully it's useful. We're probably gonna give like our take on, hey, here's what resonates still. I think it's probably 15 years since we last read this book or maybe, yeah, something, some very long time. So a full sophomore in high school's age.
Um, uh, since I last read this. Um, and so there's some things that I'm reading and I'm like, huh, I kind of disagree with that now. And there's some things that I'm like, yes, like this is so simple. Um, and every brand should do this and yet most brands likely aren't. So hopefully this can be a cool reminder as it is, as it was for us. Um, and full disclaimer, we don't claim to be experts. We're not, you know, fluffing up our own feathers here. Um, we're.
Preston Rutherford (03:16)
Yeah.
Tom (03:43)
Talking and exploring concepts we think are important because we almost went out of business to Chubbies. And one of the reasons for that was kind of misunderstanding the way to think about brand. Even coming from a place where at Chubbies, I think we started with a lot of intuition and a lot of kind of what you need to build a lasting brand. Still, we almost just got it like royally wrong. Luckily we got it right and had some good success. And so hopefully we can kind of impart.
at least our take, our knowledge, to the extent that it's useful. And hopefully drive new action. That's the intent of this podcast is really drive new action, drive new behaviors for anybody who cares to listen, whether that's one person, 10 people, or the whole GD world. You know? So
Preston Rutherford (04:33)
Correct. That's right. And one, just maybe to cut you off there rudely, I want to, I would like to further a point you made ever so slightly, which is talking about our experience and the whole, you know, almost going out of business thing. The reason why we talk about this stuff, like why are we talking about Brandon in the first place is it.
Tom (04:39)
Do it!
Preston Rutherford (05:03)
is going to help your company generate more profits because people are now going to purchase from you because they have connected you to a particular product. And so the purchase decision is no longer a rational comparison based process. It is, I think shorts, I get chubbies. And because that thought process starts to happen, that only happens when you've built the strong brand.
The amount of money you have to pay to get that revenue compresses. And that's where profit, that's where contribution comes from. That's where profit comes from. And that's how more businesses, more brands can grow flourish, survive. So this is all to help you make more money. It's not to build brands for the sake of learning about some theory. It is. It is a fundamentally money driving growth driving.
existential initiative. So that's the why. And hopefully by connecting it to, you know, your company, your pocketbook, your goals in your business, maybe the ears will perk up a little bit. I'll step off of my soap box now.
Tom (06:17)
Get on that soapbox. I agreed and thank you for calling that out. I think the other way that I've thought about it, these are all like ex post facto, I think, learnings for us, because while we were in it, we were in it, and not able to be a bit more circumspect about things. But I think we always took it as obvious fact that in the world of retail, your product has to be excellent, right?
You have to have great designers. You have to have great creative people working on your product. Create engineers, if that's the sort of product to sell, et cetera. And that's like a non-negotiable. And so when people are like, how do you build great product? It's like, that's not a question we get too often. How do I think about this importance? Like, how should I foot?
great product in my business and things like that, because it's just so obvious that you need that, because it's the thing that people are celebrating and enjoying and using and whatever. I think for us, it's become just as existential and just as central to make sure you have a great brand and you have the DNA and you're building the DNA internally to be able to build great brand.
And those are the two non-negotiables. How to run media, how to do a bunch of other things, you can learn on the fly. And those are more negotiable, as evidenced by all the billion ways that brands become successful. Only a tiny sliver of which, and TBD on degree of success, coming from just performance-paid media, the non-negotiables are brand and product, brand and product, brand and product come back over and over and over.
And so not just profitability to us, it's like existential. If you want to have a business and an asset that regardless of whether or not it's you running this thing for the next 30 years, it's an asset that you need to be able to convince some other people that it needs to last for 30 years if it's not the case. And that's what that's the moat you have in this world. So anyway.
Preston Rutherford (08:28)
Hahaha
Well said.
Tom (08:37)
I'm gonna, we'll both step down from our respective soap box, soap box eye. Um, cool. Well, I'll kick it over to you Preston, um, to kind of open up this conversation on section two, um, all about bringing the brand to life.
Preston Rutherford (08:41)
said soapbox.
Thank you. I appreciate that. And maybe to kick it off ever so briefly to add additional context and orientation to what we'll be talking about today, because, okay, again, financial goal, how you do it, this is why. Now we're gonna get a little deeper, maybe a little bit theoretical even with some examples, but this is, we've established the why. So maybe just to guide.
the section two by just regurgitating the names of each of the titles, but I think it's somewhat helpful. I'll do that now. Chapter seven, so we're doing seven to 12. Chapter seven is around design cues. Chapter eight, touch points, so talking about triggers, customer journey, goals on the journey. Nine is building a connection between brand and self. 10.
is one that we did in a previous episode, but it's called Building Strong Brands Through Ad Strategy in the Online Age. 11, Digital Brand Storytelling. So talking about stories. A lot of people talk about brand, tell your story. What is that? And then, yeah, you heard about, have you ever told a story? And then 12, Branding Services in a Digital Era. I couldn't find anything interesting there, but it's a chapter and it exists, so I will name it.
Tom (10:10)
You ever heard about story?
Preston Rutherford (10:24)
But it's relevant actually, I shouldn't be poo-pooing anything. Now, my first interesting topic to throw your way is what stood up for me. Number one was just getting into chapter nine, this idea of linking brands to self. And there was a small tidbit that I kind of copy pasted that I might use to kick off this segment, it says successful brands connect.
to consumers by linking to primary motives that drive consumer behavior. Here, promotes, here we discuss three such primary motives. Number one, coherence, which is, AKA, the need to, excuse me, let me begin again, which is, AKA, the need for clarity and certainty about the self.
Tom (10:57)
Pimots.
Hehehehe
Preston Rutherford (11:19)
This will also double as a therapy session. Number two. What am I doing here? Why am I here? Number two, agency. The need for individual competence and achievement that we all share. And number three, exactly. I am great.
Tom (11:24)
Who am I?
What do I like? What do I do?
I am neat. I am great. I am athletic. I know who I am and it is great!
Preston Rutherford (11:48)
I am smart. I provide value to this world. And number three, primary motive number three, communion. The need for social acceptance. Dude. And everyone tells me so.
Tom (12:05)
I am great and other people think I am great. You know I am great! Just kidding. That's true.
Preston Rutherford (12:18)
So that, so primary motives and the drive consumer behavior, and not just when I actually read consumer behavior, I was like, oh, like purchase consumers, but no, like human behavior, I think is the word that they meant to use. So I will just correct their text for them. But these being the fundamental drivers of our behavior, nicely distilled down here. So like coherence, consistency, how we see ourselves.
agency our ability to actually do things, be effective in the world and community. Community, excuse me, this idea of acceptance and being a part of a group, right? So cool, like let that simmer and marinate because when I just read those words it was just like, oh okay, this provides a vocabulary, just a set of words that
connect to all these ideas that we as marketers have in our heads for all of the stuff that we generally have been already doing, maybe missing the mark every once in a while because we didn't necessarily have clearly defined ways to describe these things. But many of the stuff that we've been doing and many of, and much of the value I should say of books like this, at least for me, is somewhat of like a cathartic, oh, okay, now I know how to talk about.
that jumbled up idea that has existed in our heads for a while. So anyways, I will make that point and put that aside. The other, so part number two that I thought was an interesting point, and then maybe I'll drive it to like, so what, is this inward or outward from a motive perspective? So it's like, I am me.
And like, how do I view myself and then external or outward? Like how do others, how do others view me? So then you have this cool little table that brings these things together. And it's actually kind of cool. So I would check it out. I'm not going to read it to you, but those are the general ideas and the general frameworks. So like the, so what, and, uh, some ideas around.
you know, maybe why it's interesting and what you can do with this information. I think one of the takeaways that I already mentioned is you've probably already been appealing to some of these primary motivations in your existing work. One of my takeaways, in addition to laying out the idea of these primary motives, which when you connect to them and appeal to them and target them, you then connect brand to self.
And like the so what on connecting brand to self, right? As you strengthen, you're able to create that connection when you connect brand to self of whatever, Coke equals happy moments, Chubby's equals awesome, fun shorts that you wear on vacations and on the weekend, all of these associations. To make the connect, you have to make the connection so that the purchase decision can happen in the way you want it to without having to prompt with bottom funnel DR ads that appeal to it.
product offer urgency. So that's why it's important to connect brand to self. And that's why this framework matters because it provides structure. So that when you do your next marketing thing, you have a higher hit rate of success on creating that linkage. Great. So where my mind started to go and where I tend to default sometimes is like, okay, I now have all of this information. Let's do all of it all the time.
And principle one that they give, which I think is a helpful, um, focuser is just target one motive, you know, just sort of like nail coherence, like inward coherence or nail outward agency, right? Just sort of like nail that hone it, get really good at communicating that idea, appealing to it, getting consistent and known for doing that.
because you're probably going to be pretty poopy at it at the beginning. Everything we do at the beginning is pretty, pretty bad. So I thought that was a helpful takeaway for me. And then the second part as they get went through maybe eight or nine different principles around appealing to these primary motives or thinking about acting on these primary motives was principle four, the idea of using the brand to compensate for threats.
to self-concept, which, and I'm probably not defining this in the absolute correct fashion, but one of the things that just to kind of like apply it to Achubby's context that was so, I think, central to the things that we were doing was this notion of like, dealing with stress and how do I view myself and kind of like, who am I in the context of being a professional, you know, how do I operate?
Can I be like my fun self or do I have to, when I throw on pants and show up into this meeting, do I have to be this certain thing? And then what's the impact of that? And then how can we effectively as a brand that represents fun, levity, weekend freedom, how are we then helping in the context of...
whether it be coherence or the conflict or the threat of coherence in terms of like, Jesus, who am I? And how do I self-actualize within the context of all of these constraints in the life that I live? And then there's a tension there and there's the tension and release there that gets really interesting. And I know I'm getting very tactical, but it just really kind of, again, provides a vocabulary for some of the things that we did.
knowingly and consciously to a certain extent, but also somewhat subconsciously. So that now that there's more of a vocabulary to it, hopefully it can be conveyed and communicated to other brand builders out there who are exploring ways to appeal to these primary motivations again, so that your brand can get connected to hopefully a prospective customer's view of self, and then they'll purchase from you without you having to buy that transaction.
which we all love. So that is one of the things I thought was interesting, connecting brand to self, the three primary motivators, and then the internal and external version of those. And then a couple notes on some principles that you might think about applying as you engage upon your journey of connecting brand to self. But that's just me yammering on. I'm just curious. I mean, any reactions, Tom, as you think about this?
Tom (19:27)
That's just me. That's just me. Yeah, this is just B-Row. So I thought it was useful to kind of lay out the principles. And so for risk of bastardization of them, I'm just going to read them. And so this is seven principles for building strong self brand connections.
Preston Rutherford (19:29)
I'm just one man.
Mm.
Tom (19:49)
Principle one is target one motive which you mentioned principle two is target life transitions for powerful self-brand connections and the way I internalized this was like there are moments where you're encountering a new Aspect of yourself right where you're asking the question of who am I as This person now who am I as an employee? Who am I as a college student? Who am I as a father? Who am I as a husband?
Preston Rutherford (19:57)
Mm.
Tom (20:17)
And these are all these new opportunities to start to define self in new ways. And I thought that was an interesting take on kind of principle two of like, hey, if there's space to occupy, like, you know, kind of enter that fray. Principle three, use the branch to bridge self-concept conflicts. And so this is, I think one of the examples they use is like a working mother sort of idea.
Preston Rutherford (20:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom (20:45)
potentially being kind of self-concepts that are in conflict, which should not be the case, but be that as it may, culturally that may be that is prominent. And so a brand that comes in and kind of gives that reinforcement of working moms.
being okay, that actually being kind of copacetic combination of self. Use the brand to compensate for threats to the self concept, principle number four. Principle five, design distinct and exclusive brand communities, kind of interesting, of like identifying who you are and that being different from who everybody else is. They used Harley Davidson as an example of kind of like outlaws and we all know like the dudes who ride Harleys and whatnot, and we all aspire to be them, of course.
And apples like culture in general up until they became mainstream. So there's something interesting there around like what is cool and coolness kind of being necessarily not mainstream sort of thing. It's kind of interesting to think about. Six, use multifaceted brand storytelling. And so talking, I'll talk to you kind of my take on kind of actions from that.
Preston Rutherford (21:42)
Mmm.
Right.
Tom (22:00)
consistent themes, but in different ways. I think it was the way I took that. And then principle seven, incentivize brand usage. And so how do you incentivize kind of more and more reps, more and more awareness to enter into this concept of self? So,
Preston Rutherford (22:18)
You're muted.
Tom (22:21)
Did I literally... was I muted the whole time? Oh. What in the hell? Um... Heheheheh
Preston Rutherford (22:21)
There we go. No, just for two seconds.
You were just transitioning after talking through all of the principles.
Tom (22:32)
Ah, yes. At any rate, one of the things I thought was really interesting and I'm kind of continually compelled by is just like the degree to which, and it's easy to forget this, the degree to which all of what we're doing, whether you're a media company, whether you're a brand, when you're putting stuff out there for people to react to and build connections to.
Um, you're operating on like hardware that has been evolved over, you know, hundreds of thousands of years. Um, and it's all comes down to kind of neuroscience really is like, okay, how do people form memory structures? What are those most salient memory structures? What does it mean when somebody likes something? Like when you like something, why the hell is that an evolutionary thing? Right. Why is that valuable to you?
in evolutionary terms. And I think particularly when it starts to come to, like, you know, my dog probably doesn't have a really strong sense of self unique among other dogs that they care about. And so I think self starts to become like a social concept. And I think that's one of the things that is really distinct about human beings and other, you know, primates, chimpanzees and things like that. But I think human beings probably have the most evolved kind of
social structures and things like that, where self identifies your people, right? And gives you a way to place yourself in the world, which is very interesting. And so like, I kind of took all of the lenses as like, again, good vocabulary. So like, coherence, agency, community, etc. Good lenses to think through.
Preston Rutherford (24:14)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (24:27)
what is like inherently a non-labelable idea, which is like the neurobiology of self and like what that means. But it is an interesting lens to think through of like the, and it's kind of the way that I think about like news, right? Like, and you know, there's like the famous blue Facebook,
conservative or right leaning, then all the news articles you like and see are very right leaning and that's such a central idea to a lot of people's identities that that's what they like because it lines up with their identity. It's not like a really complex math there. And similarly on the blue side of things, the liberal side of things, all the news and all the posts were about the things that those people would like or have reactions to.
Preston Rutherford (25:08)
Right? Right.
Tom (25:23)
And so I thought that was a really like, like effectively lining yourself up with self is really important because it's very evocative in the framing of, um, this is why I like something and why I like something a lot is because I identify with it's with it a lot. Um, it embodies my values a lot. This is the way that I think about myself a lot. And I think the, um,
The tenet I take from that is a couple, but one is like, those are strong emotions you're talking about. It's not like a functional purpose. It's not like that is all system one thinking. Um, like who am I is not a, uh, it's not something you've written out. Yeah. It has a blueprint, um, in a word doc sort of thing. It's very intuitive and you react to things you like. You react to things you don't like. Um,
And you just feel a certain way about certain topics and certain things and certain jokes and the certain pieces of content, whatever. And so like the degree to which that's emotional and like system one versus rational, I think is really, really powerful. And so like, you can have a gizmo that does all the cool functional things that it could possibly could do. But if there's not also that kind of emotional effect, that delight, that...
um, appeal, um, to emotion and identity and things like that. Um, brand is tougher to come by. Um, and, um, the sec, the, the second kind of interesting thing that I, that I made me think about was familiarity, right? I think as self, um, you were very familiar with the concepts that define you. You're very familiar with the things that appeal to yourself. You're very familiar with the things that you like and things like that. And, um, and so kind of coming.
Preston Rutherford (26:58)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (27:13)
I think one of the things I'm always stricken by is this like surprising connection to the familiar and the surprising take on the familiar or the kind of core to self is a really interesting way to kind of think about how to access that and how to form a new memory structure in line with that because I think there's some there's a je ne sais quoi that has to accompany how to be retained in memory.
And I think there's this like kind of element of surprise sort of thing that kind of comes up time and again in comedy and comes up in a lot of different ways of like strong emotions. And so it's like combining the familiar and the foreign sort of thing. Anyway, so that's a bit of a diatribe. I think the actionable takes I had from this is, I thought the idea of like
Thinking about the internal versus external is really good. Is your product about who you are as a person and your own psychology, or is it about how you fit into the group more kind of explicitly? Is it about good times with friends? Is it about that sort of thing? Versus this is who you are and this gives you more self-confidence in who you are sort of thing.
And creatively, like this is a good lens to think through. It's like in your creative, literally, are you addressing a single person or are you addressing a group of people? And at Chubby's, we did a lot of like experimentation and saw different results depending on different setups with different amounts of people and things like that. And I think there's something really telling in that. The other piece that I thought through was like,
asking the question of how does your brand help your customer tell this story about their core identity, right? Like how do you fit into that? So one of the examples they use is like, I'm a runner. I'm really passionate about running. Nike fits nicely into that story, particularly Nike running. And so product is inherently related to how that fits into this story, but also then how Nike presents it is really powerful. And so how do you help them tell their story about
Here's who I am. And particularly when it comes to like clothing and things that are visible, clothing, shoes, whatever, watches, those sorts of things. While that statement can sometimes be for yourself, you're wearing a Nike t-shirt for that person or Nike running t-shirt for that person. It kind of tells you a little bit about, it tells the world a little bit about who you are and what you care about. And that's interesting.
Preston Rutherford (30:01)
Totally. I'm curious, you mentioned, because as we sometimes get comments or people asking us about more of the nuance or the specific behind the scenes at Chubby's, one of the things you started hinting at, and maybe my question is around, maybe go a little deeper, help the listeners maybe understand, you mentioned the experimentation around the internal, external, which of the primary motivators.
experimentation, testing, thinking through it, maybe any additional, I don't know, specifics or lessons or ways that other brand builders, operators might think through how to find this for them based upon the Chevy's experience.
Tom (30:50)
Um...
Yeah, like I think for my part, experimentation is always at the centerpiece of everything that we do.
And so if I'm a brand builder, the first thing that I'm asking the question of is what's my story, why did I get interested in this and what do I find compelling about both the product that we're selling and like the brand white space that I think is out there or the thing that I feel most viscerally. And so when we were brainstorming Chubbies, we always had a brand concept tied to the product, right? It wasn't merely shorter men's shorts.
there was short men shorts with an attached like middle finger to the rest of the world of men's fashion that we felt kind of thoroughly. Let's see, like not rejected by but thoroughly unwelcomed. And and then meanwhile saw a whole generation of men, namely our fathers, who didn't know a thing about men's fashion and didn't
Preston Rutherford (31:55)
You
Tom (31:58)
give one shit whatsoever, grew out heavy mustaches and long hair, cut off their jeans to wear tiny jean shorts and went out and cranked a couple of beers on the river sort of thing. And so that was a great mascot for us and a great kind of symbol for us to go appeal to. I think also while I think a lot of times fashion is a social product.
Preston Rutherford (32:00)
Hahaha
I'm sorry.
Hahaha
Tom (32:29)
I think oftentimes what we, and maybe there's nuance to this, but like, I think what we, if I'm like rationalizing this ex post facto, I think what we were really focused on was the internal kind of sense of self, of confidence and wear what you want to wear and why, like the illogic, the illogic that we saw with like cargo shorts and long shorts.
was just so jarring. It's like, why does this make sense? Wear something that's functional, wear something that like, if you're wearing shorts, wear shorts. Like, if you wanna wear pants, wear pants. Like, don't combine them.
Preston Rutherford (33:04)
haha
Half-assing has never worked in life. It doesn't work here.
Tom (33:12)
Right, exactly. And so I think even though it like, I think a lot of the manifestation sometimes was very social, like a lot of like, wearing chubbies and groups of people, like in friend groups made a ton like was a big thing. The way we thought about it was very much about I think the internal narrative as opposed to the external of check me out and don't you think I'm so neat.
It's more about wear what makes you feel good. And like, there's no way those make you feel good. Those are worn only out of that second path. That's like, I wanna fit in. I don't wanna show my legs off. Maybe my legs aren't the best legs or whatever. It's just a silly concept of the like, those are your legs. Whatever they are, they're your legs. Just fucking wear shorts, man. And so I think we very much focus on the internal.
Preston Rutherford (33:39)
Hehehe
I'm sorry.
Hahaha!
Hahaha!
Tom (34:08)
narrative. And so it kind of, as I think back, like a lot of times like group shots just didn't work for us. And particularly when you didn't have like a hero in the narrative, when you didn't have like, sometimes you could like have a setting, but you had to have a hero who you were focused on. And anyway, so like, how to appeal that to the business, I think it's like thinking back to the what are you building?
Preston Rutherford (34:14)
Mmm.
It's interesting.
Tom (34:37)
What are you connecting really viscerally with? What is the emotional white space? And I would think about that from both a product perspective and a brand perspective. Like what's the white space from both of those? What's something visceral? I really liked the idea of bridging the gap between kind of conflicting ideals, particularly because those tend to evolve over time. And...
cultural trends can kind of create different manifestations of things. And I think some of the best brands can participate in interesting cultural trends and help bridge that gap. Um, one of the other things I thought was really just cool, a cool framing of an ad campaign, cause I think like a lot of times advertising can be seen of that it can be looked upon as though it's like whatever malicious or not super great because you're convincing people to buy things sort of thing. Um, but like at the end of the day, you're also trying to sell.
Preston Rutherford (35:06)
Right.
Tom (35:32)
tickets to movies and things like that. And so like, one of the things that I thought was really cool was like the exact opposite of that was like how the Nike Just Do It campaign has become, and it has for a lot of people, like a mantra for doing the impossible or doing the thing that you're the most scared of doing, like popping the question, starting a business, quitting your job, like whatever these things are that you're afraid to do, it gives a mantra to kind of do that thing. And like it's creativity, it's creativity, it's creativity, and creativity manifests in a lot of different ways.
And so, so anyway, like I just thought that there was a lot of kind of interesting affect that comes with that brand exploration that sometimes can feel like it's in service of something more shady. When, if you're really feeling it, it's in service of something important. It's in service of something that connects that, that can drive passion and enthusiasm. Like what we're talking about is like sense of self. And these are like interesting kind of.
Preston Rutherford (36:21)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (36:29)
uh, ways for people to codify their sense of self, feel confident in themselves. It was a really cool concept. So, um, so anyway, I would connect, I would figure out what you connect with.
Preston Rutherford (36:40)
That is. Yep. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, just to your point, the implications of Just Do It, you know, those different examples, and then connecting to something that's important. It's a little bit of a mindset shift on.
the understanding that yeah, your company, you as humans with an organization, creating the brand can have this important impact on the world. And that can, to a certain extent, maybe doesn't necessarily have to be the primary driver, but what I thought was interesting or what I pulled out of it is like, you could be digesting this as the listener as, okay, so I got to learn these things so that I can, and I'm not, I'm being
somewhat hyperbolic, but so that I can manipulate these minds out there so that they will connect my brand to themselves and therefore, they will come to my site and I will hypnotize them and they will just start blindly typing my URL into their browser. No, it's, maybe that is somewhat of an output, not the hypnotizing and manipulation, but because you helped this improvement in view of self,
helping a person better self-actualize or whatever it might be, but that service to humanity, you then get to be the beneficiary of that positive impact that you had on the human. Nike gets to sell more shoes because they help more people try a slam dunk or whatever it might be, get out there and run. I thought that was an interesting shift to the way that some of this information might potentially be digested.
Tom (38:25)
Yeah, well, and like it's just I think it's juxtaposed against, you know, performance marketing direct response advertising, which has a tendency to try and be capitalizing on impulse and this concept of like triggers and things like that, that they talk about in this as well is what's the thing that gets you know,
Preston Rutherford (38:52)
Yeah.
Tom (38:55)
And this is where discounts and sales come in and stuff like that, which of course you have to do. But what I love about the process of branding, one of the reasons that I just love this topic and love so much of what we did at Chubby's and what we learned about there is that this process of branding is that creative process. It's like, put this creative out and it's not like...
It's not something that is manipulative. It's, are you connecting in the right way? Are you giving people delightful experiences? And at Chubby's we had so many customer stories come in that were like about how we help people feel more confident. I won't go deep because it starts to feel a little bit like to patting yourself on the back sort of thing. But just a lot of people whose lives were changed by like us putting out some of this ridiculous content that its only aspiration was to make you smile. You know, like laugh and like have a great time.
Preston Rutherford (39:49)
Right.
Tom (39:52)
And there's something so cool about that. And I think the other piece that it's so nice to see is just like, yeah, that's also the stuff that works in building these connections. Now, that's not the stuff that works on the trigger, right? Like the thing that is like, I get them to buy now. Like that's that it's correct. Like that's not what's what that is. And so you do have to have that. And there are a lot of different ways to go about that. That we'll talk about another episode, but it's really cool to see this process
branding and building emotional connection is so kind of purely creative.
Preston Rutherford (40:25)
Yep, totally. So in the minutes we have, one of the ways I was thinking we might close the episode is around, you know, tactical application. So great connecting brands to self. I totally want to do the shit out of that. So now how? One of the closing lines that I really appreciated was just around storytelling and just this obvious little quippy hot take that is we are not suffering from a lack of brand storytelling. We are suffering from bland storytelling.
And then it, okay, great. The so what is so that we can actually use, we can apply all of this stuff that we've just learned about in a systematic approach, a systematic story process. Where, you know, so my, my setup and I'll hand it to you is there may be an assumption that, I mean, I guess like for a Tik TOK video, you're like, okay, I mean, this sort of thing happening in the hook and then this has happened.
slightly different in that this is applying a framework, set of creative constraints to creativity, which can sometimes be intention where you're just like, okay, I just got to be totally open to the creativity that's going to hit me. But it's like, no, I think one of the ways that we found a lot of success at Chubby's was like turning this into a structure, having, having a specific dependent variable that we were looking to improve that was tied to specific business and financial results we were looking to drive.
And then once you have that feedback loop, you then go and you take a shit ton of shots on goal. So maybe from the how perspective, one of the things I saw that you had in your notes, it was pretty cool. It was just sort of this idea of, you know, the seven stories, the story structure, the three acts, you know, just maybe like a, it's effectively a blueprint that people can look up or take away from this episode that maybe just helps them be like, okay, yeah, I now have structure. I now have.
something that I can wrap my head around and define that I'm gonna take into the office or into the Zoom meeting on Monday and apply going forward in the way we create content and the way we tell stories so that we can better connect our brand to self.
Tom (42:35)
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I would encourage everyone just to look up these. These are well-documented things, and even I've read about these things a billion times, and I'll forget the specifics, and so I wanna print them out and put them somewhere. And just like, anytime you're building any piece of content, to have these things to think about, and it helps aid with writer's block and content block and what's the right way to manifest this idea.
Preston Rutherford (42:41)
Right.
Great refresher, yeah.
good point.
Tom (43:03)
So anyway, there were kind of two, whatever, concepts to tease out. First was like the story archetypes, right? Like it's the famous adage that like there are only really seven stories in the world and every story is just a different twist on those things. And the names of these stories are awesome, but you should look these up. But the seven are Overcoming the Monster,
Preston Rutherford (43:28)
Hehehehe
Tom (43:33)
Rags to Riches, The Hero's Quest, Voyage and Return, Comedy, Tragedy, and Rebirth. Those are seven. Now, like, they called out the Apple's 1984 campaign as like this idea of quote unquote overcoming the monster. Or no, I think that was it. Maybe it was just it. But it's effectively like, you can defeat that terrible beast.
Preston Rutherford (43:41)
Hahaha
Tom (44:00)
And oh, by the way, maybe the terrible beast is your own psychology and you can beat your own insecurities or it's, you know, Big Brother, Big Brother slash Microsoft try to keep you down. Sort of things. But I think it's a cool lens. It's like, okay, who am I? Who's the monster? Right? Like that's there's a way to kind of think through what is overcoming the monster, fill in your characters and what's the shortest amount of like, particularly like social. What's the shortest amount of time you can tell that story?
Preston Rutherford (44:05)
Hahaha
Tom (44:30)
And then the, so those are kind of the stories. And so you can kind of fill in the narrative. And then story structure is kind of a bit of this appeal to what is drama and what is surprising and what is tension and things like that. And so there were two structures that they laid out. I think the one that I resonate most with is this kind of five-part structure. A lot of times people think about it in terms of three acts, but I resonate really with the five-part structure,
First, there's an inciting incident. That's one. Two, there's rising action. So things are getting heated. Things are getting intense. Three, there's a climax. Wham-a, whoa, this is the maximum intensity moment. Hold on to your butts. What's going to happen? Four, there's falling action. And so the kind of uncertainty that is post-climax. And then five is resolution. The end of the story. Do you think the hero is going to die or not?
And it depends on the year we're in and what's gonna be surprising, but it's gonna be one of those two. And that's resolution. I really like those just to force yourself to think through them. Even if it's a freaking LinkedIn posts, even if it's a 15 second piece of content you're putting out on TikTok, whatever, I would think through that and you can accomplish that in a really fast way.
Preston Rutherford (45:46)
right.
Tom (45:58)
15 seconds is a lot of time, 30 seconds is even more, double the amount of time, if you can believe it. And so tactically, I would for sure write out what are these things for every single video you're doing. And it's not to say your only successful videos are going to be videos that perfectly follow that structure, but it's really useful to fill in the blanks there. And it's something that's so well-known and so ingrained in storytelling for a reason. What did you think? What was your take on?
storytelling side of things because we didn't go too deep into that. But they talk a lot about storytelling. There's a full chapter on brand storytelling and how to kind of architect those things.
Preston Rutherford (46:37)
Yeah, I mean, there were this notion of three keys of storytelling, be human, be pervasive, be persistent. I don't know if there's that. I think that's relatively great. That's what I want to tell you. What?
Tom (46:51)
Uh oh, I have failed. I did not pass initiative number one. That was a human robot joke. I was, I was affecting a robot voice. Uh, and that would have been in conflict with initiative number one, which is be a human.
Preston Rutherford (46:56)
Hahaha
See that?
for the listeners at home when I was doing was actually a robot voice and the reason I did that.
Tom (47:24)
The best jokes are the ones you must explain immediately afterwards.
Preston Rutherford (47:29)
So what was funny about that is, so yeah, that was one thing. I'm just scrolling through because you had a lot of awesome notes too. But actually what I did, oh, there was this, and I don't have the specific David Ogilvie quote, but his point was just basically around like, as someone creating content, stop thinking that it's a,
crutch or that it's negative to use a very specific framework. It doesn't mean you're less good because you fit into. So he mentioned like Shakespeare and someone else who was like super legit. Uh, but like, um, but that they both weren't less good because everything they wrote fit into a very specific framework. And uh,
The quote stuck with me, but obviously not enough to where I remember the exact quote, but I remember how I felt and how the pieces, I think you call it a memory palace, the home that was created in my mind of, okay, this is the thing. It's like, Shakespeare doesn't suck. No, he doesn't suck. Oh, use this framework. Oh, interesting, I didn't actually know that. Wow, that's cool. I can actually apply this and not feel like my.
Tom (48:29)
You remembered how you felt.
Yes, yes!
Preston Rutherford (48:53)
View of self is threatened to tie it all back together. Right. Nope, nope. So I actually caught, I've heard of Inbabor. I think you may have as well. That's, that's, that was my sort of like final thought, but why don't you close us out, Tom?
Tom (48:56)
Yeah. Was Shakespeare, was Shakespeare derivative? Heck no.
I know Shakespeare.
Hehehehe
Let's see, I think to close this out, I really liked this section. This is the stuff that I just geek out on, which is like the psychology, the creativity, the way that brand building can do good, the way that content can do good out there in the world and doesn't have to be brand building, but just content in connecting with people in, it's not even like helping, but in like.
Preston Rutherford (49:33)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (49:40)
Reinforcing or giving people things to kind of incorporate into their sense of self that is like creative expression. And it's kind of both gratifying as the creator and gratifying as the creative, the receiver of the creative. It's just a really cool process and I just love creativity. So I appreciated that. I appreciated some of the lenses to think through. I appreciated some of the things that you can just do like templatize this stuff. And it doesn't mean that you now all your content is going to be cookie cutter because the
Preston Rutherford (49:54)
Mmm.
Tom (50:09)
as what you said, kind of Shakespeare had a template and so does Stephen King, if you read his book on writing. And that's okay. They're completely different people, completely different writers, but they help you understand like this, like these like age old psychological tenets that you can appeal to. Now you can make decisions to break from those norms too, and sometimes that's effective, but filling in your template I think is really useful.
So yeah, maybe that's kind of the kind of final manifestation is coming out of this with a, okay, here's my template for the motive I'm trying to appeal to. Here's the audience that I'm trying to appeal to who has this motive. Here is the way I'm appealing to these seven principles or this particular principle I wanna nail. Here's how that's manifesting in storytelling. Here's my selection of, I'm doing hero's journey, I'm doing overcoming the monster. And then here's my...
Preston Rutherford (51:05)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (51:08)
Inciting incident rising action climax falling action resolution Wham bam boom bam bang and then go out and do it and it might stink
Preston Rutherford (51:13)
Boom, bam, boom. And the final, yeah, it probably will at the beginning, but the cool thing, and then I'll hand it back over to you, but that I like there is that on the surface, this may seem somewhat stifling to a very creative person, but I think anyone who's been doing it long enough knows how freeing it is to have these creative constraints. And so if you're newer to this process of figuring out how the hell to create content that people like, the fear...
associated with feeling like you have to be creative. This is, this is kind of the how, you know, it's not magic. It's not coming down from on high. It's committing to this process with these frameworks, picking your goal, like that metric, and then just feedback loop, like doing it over and over and over, knowing that you're going to suck at the beginning. But then this framework now really helps you understand, I mean, this is like the proven stuff that works if you do it over and over and over again. So I think that's kind of cool. It's like a nice roadmap.
that you can apply to creativity and making that connection. So I dug that.
Tom (52:19)
Yeah, for whatever reason I got reminded of that Ed Sheeran clip that's gone around a little bit. It's like he's on a talk show and they have like I think a YouTube video of when he was young singing and you know creativity much like singing, singing ability is sometimes thought to be this like oh you're just born with it or not and Ed Sheeran.
demonstrates that you're not born with singing talent. So like his video, he's not singing particularly well as far as his standards, my standards he's great. But that's the joke that they play and they play like a funny video of him, like his voice cracking and like not being on top of all sorts of stuff like that. And that he just sang a shit ton and got way better at it and wrote a shit ton of songs. So anyway, channel your inner.
Preston Rutherford (52:47)
Ha ha ha.
Hehehehehehe
Hehe
I'm gonna go.
Tom (53:12)
young Ed Sheeran and stick at it even though it might not work at first.
Preston Rutherford (53:18)
Yeah, makes me think of, and we should add this as a future podcast, it's just Creativity, Inc. And just the whole Pixar process from a content creation perspective. With the main takeaway and applicability, what we're talking about today being, we just know it's gonna be shit at the beginning. And we expect that, but you still gotta put out that first version, and that's the only way that we can get to something that's great by putting out that thing that is shit. So, anyways.
Tom (53:47)
Well, thank you, gentle and kind and good looking listener. And hopefully you found some something useful. Let us know if you did. And we will see you very, very soon with love in our hearts and creativity on the brain. We bid you adieu.
Preston Rutherford (54:07)
Mmm.
Adieu!