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Unlocking Retail Media is the essential podcast for leaders and marketers navigating the rapidly evolving world of retail advertising. We move beyond day-to-day operations to explore the strategic future of the industry, covering major investment trends, the shift to hybrid marketplace models, and the existential disruption posed by Agentic Commerce. Host James Avery brings in top industry veterans and visionary founders to analyze how ground-breaking technology is transforming customer journeys, influencing product catalogs, and forcing retailers to rethink on-site, in-store, and digital media strategies to remain competitive in the modern age.
Lee Dunbar: [00:00:00] I hope that more media buyers and media strategists are deeply familiar with the retailers that are important to their clients. That's the hope I have From a, you know, strategy and approach standpoint, from a technology perspective, I think we may see a greater evolution and programmatic around, you know, moments of intent or like pre intent, like starting to model more of that.
To get it folks before maybe they engage a, uh, a agent, an AI agent.
James Avery: Welcome to Unlocking Retail Media, the podcast where we explore the evolving world of retail media from data strategy to monetization and everything in between. This is the podcast that breaks down how retailers can build smarter data-driven media networks by aligning with what brands truly need from scalable ad solutions and meaningful metrics.
To cross channel attribution and programmatic strategy. Today I'm excited [00:01:00] to get a different perspective on retail media, one from the kind of brand and agency side. My guest is Lee Dunbar, SPP, and Head of Retail Media at Starcom. Uh, he's been at Starcom for more than 15 years, and he is helped some of the biggest brands out there like Proctor and Granville and Kraft Heinz.
You know, really connect media, commerce and, and creativity in really smart ways. Uh, he's seen retail media evolve from kind of the, the old school shopper marketing to what it is today. One of the most important parts of modern advertising. So we'll talk about that shift, how it happened, uh, what brands and agencies are really looking for from retail, media, networks, uh, and where the, uh, space is headed.
So Lee, thanks for being here. I've been, uh, looking forward to this one.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, same here. Really appreciate, uh, the, the time and opportunity to talk about the hot topics right. In, uh, in retail media.
James Avery: Yeah. And I think, and it is like, I, like I just said, like I think it's, you know, especially for, for the people we work with, uh, you know, 'cause we're working with their RMNs.
You know, they're constantly working with the agencies and the brands, [00:02:00] right? So it's like, I love talking to our, our customer's customer, and I think they'd love to kind of hear from you what, what your, you know, what you guys are looking for, what your brands are looking for, uh, because that's, you know, that dictates how they're building their RMN what they're thinking about.
Um, so maybe, maybe to kick it off, like, like what's, uh, maybe you give us a little bit about your background and, and, and retail and kind of what you've, what you've seen over the years.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, I, uh, you know, it, it sort of was a slow burn. Um, you know, my first assignment at, uh, at Starcom. Was, uh, or at least one of the, the, the first ones was, Hey, can you, um, take a look at this Amazon buy, uh, and, and kind of help us manage that, uh, for this client.
It's the first one they've done really excited for the holiday. And, and of course, what do you do in your, your, your early career? Yeah, of course. I'll take a look at that. Um, and then that turned into, Hey, we heard you did this before. Uh, with Amazon, can you take a look at this bigger buy for this other brand?[00:03:00]
And, uh, and so that, that started into a, you know, just being the go-to because I, uh, I, I was. You know, blessed with some brands that were very active in e-commerce, much more even than their, their whole portfolio. Um, you know, brawn, electric razors within PG obviously was much more, uh, leaned into e-commerce at the early stage because of the category of consumer electronics.
Um, sometimes they think, Hey, if I was assigned another brand that wasn't necessarily leaned into e-commerce right away. Uh, what would happened? So
James Avery: yeah, you might, you might still be doing like, circulars and, and, and, you know, installs and grocery stores or something. Yeah. Who
Lee Dunbar: knows? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, no, and it's great to, you know, you get that opportunity and then you just really get excited for it 'cause, um.
You, you know, it's, it's something a little different. Um, and, and, and then you find, hey, you can apply maybe those other channels to what's happening here, uh, particularly with video and, uh, and, and how we're, you know, deploying that even from a TV strategy. I remember, um, thinking about advertising load [00:04:00] and, and even now I still talk about advertising load within, uh, retail search.
Like how many ads are showing up in this and, and is that too much for the shopper, et cetera.
James Avery: Yeah. You start to hear that about, uh, you know, you start to hear about Amazon, you know, I always try to pay attention to like, when, when does like a normie, right? Like somebody not in the ad industry mention something.
Yeah. And when you hear, you hear somebody and they, they mention like, oh, Amazon's all ads. Now you're like, okay. Yeah. Like you've probably reached, you've probably reached that load point that, that it's kind of too high. Uh, just like when people watch like streaming TV and they're like, why am I watching the same commercial over and over again?
Right. Yeah. Like if it kind of percolates to somebody who's not really paying attention, then, then you start to think, yeah, the ad load is is probably pretty high.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, no, people, people are sophisticated. They, they know what's paid, what's not. Um, particularly if, uh, if it doesn't even say it's a paid ad, I think they still kind of have a sense of, well, this is not exactly what I searched for.
Yeah. Or in pursuit of, and so, um, it's kind of interesting, especially you see that in [00:05:00] social, but you certainly see it with retail.
James Avery: Yeah. And, and so like, kind of keying in on that, like you've, you know, you've watched retail media evolve. You know, do you think, you know, where do you think we are on the kind of maturity level of retail media?
Like, are we, do you feel like the, the networks are kind of getting there? Or do you feel like we still have a long way to go to, to get to where kind of some of the other, you know, mediums are?
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, you know, just unpacking even the word medium, it's like, is this a channel or not? Um, and I constantly go back to Kara Pratt's statement when she was at Kroger and now she's at Sirana.
Uh, with that retail, retail media is a channel and a layer, and so how do we view this as almost part of someone's marketing tech stack versus just a, a channel, you know, unlike social, where it's like, okay, it became its own channel, its own right, uh, or even digital video. It became its own channel, its own right.
Retail's sort of this odd duck of. Yes, there's certainly a channel of retail media. You know, [00:06:00] I lead the practice for that, so I gotta believe that. Um. But then there's these arms that reach into the other channels where that, that becomes more of that layer. And so I think as a standalone channel, it certainly started to mature, I think it's early innings yet because, uh, when you look at it as a channel, you have, um, you know, uh, citrus ads several years ago had what's called fixed tenancy, where you bid on a term and, and it's consistently gonna show up every time you search for that term.
You know, and, and I remember as a media buyer, I was like, oh, I love this. You know, it takes the guesswork out of things. Uh, what was it, two weeks ago, Amazon announced, uh, almost the same thing for brand terms. So if you can own that brand term for 30, 60, 90 days, forget, you know, what, what the, what the settings were.
Now that's for brand terms, not for category terms, but it's still kind of resurrecting some of those, you know, 20, 20, 20 19, we were talking about some of these tactics and now it's like, oh, here it's, it's, it's back again. Um. And so I think as a channel, it's like, I think [00:07:00] there's still some, some ways it can evolve.
Certainly as we talk about AgTech, I don't wanna jump too farhi, uh, far ahead as a layer, as something that's a layer in other channels. I think this is where there's still some need for maturity, um, where, alright, how does, how does the retailer become part. Of my video buy, and that could be audience targeting.
In some cases, like with, with Walmart and Amazon, they actually own inventory. Right? How does that get included and how does the retailer understand how it sits against a Paramount Plus, et cetera, to know that, alright, I have to act like you know, this, uh, or, or I'm more like a siRNA, I'm a Dave layer and I need to be exceedingly easy to use.
The retailers are getting there, but I think that's still an area of sophistication of like, you're not necessarily a channel. You're now a layer and in the tech stack, and so you end up having to talk to way more stakeholders than I think they used to. Um, but in the long term, it's probably a good path to being so integrated that you're part of every media plan.[00:08:00]
James Avery: Yeah. Well, I guess it's, it's also, it's an interesting, you know, retail media kind of feels like it covers, you know, like you said, a lot of different things. There's a part of it that is. Is just kind of trade dollars, like shopper marketing, right? Sure. Like it's like we've renamed what was already happening, whether it was buying end caps or, or Sure.
Paying to put your name in like a circular, and then there's, you know, what you, you were just talking about with like CTV where it's layering data into a, a buy on Hulu. Right, right. Which is much more like part of a traditional media campaign. Right. Like so how And a different source of
Lee Dunbar: dollars.
James Avery: Yeah. So like when you, when, when you know an agency like yourselves, it's like, are you, do you guys dealing with both of those sets of dollars?
Are you focused on the, the, the more performance media side? Like how do, how do you guys work with your brands?
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, I mean, well, well, Starcom as, as part of Publicis Group is, is definitely, you know, a legacy media agency. And I say that proudly. I'm not saying that as a, a derisive thing. Um, I'm excited that we have the history and the ability to, [00:09:00] we've been buying TV since TV began.
Right. You know, technically we've been by, you know, when we were Leo Burnett's Media department, and so there's this deep seed of understanding the national picture and national media. You combine that with the performance aspect and it's like, all right, now we can be full service and really understand how all the media channels work together.
And that really was kind of my path when we're talking about some of the more specialized agencies of like, well, they know, you know, they may know the Amazon piece, and we can have a bake off to understand how either one of us can do sponsored ads better. And I, I will definitely be in that bake off anytime.
You know, a client wants to understand, can we, can we do it better? I think we could. I'm biased. But you combine that with the ability of, well, I know they don't have the purchasing power that we have from a video perspective or, uh, even from a, uh, uh, any, any channel. Uh, because we're, we're sitting across a huge amount of the media marketplace from a national perspective.
Um. And so there, there's [00:10:00] that total picture piece. I also think there's a understanding the language a little bit more to know, okay, how does this channel fit with this channel and working with, uh, a marketing lead at an agency that may, uh, at a, at a client that has to sort of understand all sides of the ball.
So I, I think that that's the other aspect too. Um, I think there's still some, some, some ways the agency can get better about understanding folks outside the marketing department. Because I think that, that, that's the area where I like pride myself, and pride my team on of, you've got to go beyond just the, the marketing team, because there's so many other folks asking questions about what the media can do for their retail relationship.
Um, I got excited the other day when I was like, oh, the merchant's gonna be there.
music: Yeah.
Lee Dunbar: You know, they're, they're like celebrities to me, you know, because it's like, all right, cool. I get to understand how that, that person's operating versus just the, the standard, you know, media side.
James Avery: Yeah, that makes sense.
And how, um, you know, when you're thinking about these campaigns, like are they, are they starting to come together, right? Like the shopper [00:11:00] marketing and the larger performance, you know, kind of, or, or national exposure, brand exposure campaigns, because you kind of think about it, it's like a marketing department's tasked with, you know, hey, we're gonna, we wanna move more of this product.
Maybe it's at this store, maybe it's just in general. And there's, there's a lot of different things that go into that. Are they, are they looking at these as kind of comprehensive campaigns or are these still kind of siloed off a lot of times?
Lee Dunbar: Um, I think there's still silo off, uh, at at times. I think some of that's by virtue of who has the dollars and who's able to, to leverage.
Dollars for what tactics. Sometimes they create swim lanes of like, okay, only this team can do X tactics because, um, you know, that's, that's so close to the sales aspect or understanding what your supply is and very, you know, very deep business needs that a sales team is gonna understand. And so by, you know, just I think in some cases, just for their own sanity.
And they split those dollars apart. Right. In other cases, it's a little bit of a ball, uh, a, a levy to make sure that all the [00:12:00] dollars don't just get eaten by sponsored ads, you know? Right.
music: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Lee Dunbar: yeah. Oh man. If the sales team had their way, they just pour it all in there, right? Yeah, maybe. Um, and so there, there's a little bit of, of, of that, um, back and forth, but I, I do think CPGs especially who aren't used to sales optimized media.
You know, that's still retail media brought that to a lot of the CPGs that were more so in the wholesale business. Right, right. And, and so that, that forces them to sort of go through the same stages that banking did, that automotive did, where there's a little bit more of a sales, uh, path to understanding how that, how that media is, is doing.
You know, obviously we had MMM and we had third party sales studies, but we, we didn't necessarily have the same quick read of how the sales w was attached to that. And so I, I still dust off the long and short of it and, and some other frameworks where we're understanding how sales dollars and brand dollars can, can work [00:13:00] together.
Um, understanding that the sales dollars used to be thought of, oh, that's just short term tactics like display, in my view. It's like, no, we're gonna elevate that. The, the sales activation media is gonna actually be literal sales activation where we're, we're using sales data to inform the audience and then, uh, and then optimized against it.
So I think that's kind of one of the bigger strategic shifts that both agencies and brands have had to have is like, oh, I, I got more than one KPI and it's not, it's not just awareness. I could do more.
James Avery: Yeah. I mean, I think it's always, like, we always have the, the similar conversation when you think about search, you know, and people looked at search ads and said, oh, these, look at the, you know, the conversion rates of these search ads.
But then you go back and you say, well, why are people searching for this? Right. And it's because of the campaign you ran. It's because of the national campaign you ran. Yeah. It's because of the Right. It's like there's, there's, there's a lot driving to that, you know, that outcome that's capturing the last mile, which is important.
Yeah. Right. Like it's getting them over the, over that, that last mile hump. But there's a lot of work that went into getting them into that search. Right. Interested in that product category. You're [00:14:00] interested in that specific product or, or company. Uh, and so I think retail media, it's like the more I, I feel like in the future it's like we get more to.
How are these campaigns run and tracked like cohesively so that you're running a national campaign that's driving, you know, customers to Walmart for a product, and then you're making sure that your onsite experience at Walmart matches that campaign. Yeah. And they're, you know, and then they're being led down this, you know, that last mile Right.
You're not losing them to a great value product or something. Right. Right. Like you're, you're making sure you close the deal once you get 'em there. Yeah.
Lee Dunbar: Oh yeah. I mean, uh, one of my favorite reports the Profitero does every year is the day after the Super Bowl. It's like we're not just gonna talk about who had the best Super Bowl ad, it's, we're gonna talk about who showed up in retail.
Well, you know, yeah. When, when that ad comes on, alright, let's make sure they own that brand term and, and who shows up effectively. And, and that's, that's, that's absolutely the case in point of, alright, thinking about the total picture and understanding that yeah, this, this larger TV spend is absolutely gonna impact what I'm doing from a retail perspective.[00:15:00]
James Avery: Awesome. So let's get into, let's get into something that is, I know very near and dear to all of our customer's hearts, which is really, you know, you work with a lot of the biggest brands in the world. What are they, what are they looking for in retail media networks and maybe what are they not getting today, right?
Like, if we compare Amazon to, to some of the other, you know, hundreds of retail media networks out there today.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, I mean it's, it's tough to compare Amazon to, to everybody and, and, and, and I think that's one area that sometimes I think we, um, we fall trapped to even, even our own, you know, from Mars United.
The, the report card is great because it gives a really good, consistent benchmark across the retailers. Um, the, the nuance there is Amazon is making more money in advertising than it is from food and beverage.
music: Yeah.
Lee Dunbar: Than it is from, I think, toys and some other categories. And so it's truly a media agency that happens to a media partner that happens to sell things In the case of Walmart, in the case of other [00:16:00] retailers, they very much have to have to still, you know, maintain their, their, their primary business of selling.
Um, hence the, he hence the separate orgs. And so, um, I think there's a, there, there is a desire to, alright, can you be like Amazon? But I think in, in some cases when I'm working with brands. Don't necessarily think they can do that because what, what Amazon, you know, does in, in, in media and those capabilities, it may lack from a physical, um, presence in people's lives, you know, uh, outside of what's on the people's shell, uh, on uh, on porches, right?
Right. But if you look at Walmart, you know, there, there's just a, a powerful, uh, story in that there's 4,000 of these stores all across the United States. And that is something that goes well outside of the major cities. That's something that I think is, is really, um, powerful to understand like not only what I do with a media partner, like a Walmart is gonna impact something in Dixon, Illinois as much as it's going to do in, [00:17:00] you know, Chicago.
Right. And that, that's, that's a really, and you know, the fact that you can bring to scale a brand experience across all those environments are like, you know, dollar General. Certainly it gives us, um, you know, I think that's another thing we look for is incremental reach and being able to find audiences and no one else has.
Dollar General tells a great story in terms of we have rural low income audiences that maybe are getting missed by other, other, uh, partners. And, you know, let's add that incremental reach to, to, to what you're looking for. So I, I think, um, and I think that's probably the name of the game for most retailers that the brands are looking for is like, Hey, what's your audience story?
Especially for non-endemic, you know, who do you have that maybe I can't find elsewhere? Um, right outside of just eligible shoppers at, at a channel. That's important to me. That's obviously critical.
James Avery: Yeah. So let's say like a, maybe a good example if we think of like, you know, random CPG brand. Right. It's like, and you're, and you're looking at a, uh, you [00:18:00] know, kind of a campaign.
You know, maybe they, you know, you're gonna, Amazon's gonna be in there. Maybe it's Walmart's gonna be in there. Like, how do you, how do you think about what are the, you know, what are the other networks that are gonna be in that campaign? Like the Dollar General example was great, right? Because Dollar General can definitely bring, you know, I mean their whole name of their whole business was like, where their.
Basically Walmart deserts, right? Like where, where are you Not within a certain range of a Walmart, like put a Dollar General there, right? And so they're reaching a, a group that's not, not there. But how do you think about, you know, the rest of grocery or, or other kind of convenience, like, things like that.
Like do those, do they come into the picture when you're thinking about building this kind of retail media campaign?
Lee Dunbar: I think for, for a sales oriented team that is focused on, uh, on, on growing sales, uh, especially for like a grocery CPG. You have to wrestle with the fact that you're gonna have 10 or 12 partners.
I think, yeah, we can talk about narrowing the dollars, but you absolutely have to serve a long tail. Um, otherwise you're not necessarily serving all your, all your customers, uh, [00:19:00] effectively. Um, and and more importantly, you might be missing out on some market opportunities. You know, you might find that the CPCs, as they have been, are much lower, uh, in some of these, uh, some of these smaller grocery partners.
Than they are with like an Amazon, because there's so much demand on Amazon. Um, and so even from a marketplace perspective there, there's a, a necessity for a retail media team to be able to ingest and un and, and understand and execute across multiple partners and fit the, fit them in. Now, every strategy, every media plan has to have choice.
I I can't just say just gimme 'em all, but I think having a wider aperture for who you include in the plan as a retail media, uh, buyer. Is critical and, and it has to be hand in glove, you know, unlike other media choices, this has to be, uh, rooted in where my sales are and where my sales growth is, and some of the broader political, uh, aspects of, Hey, if I do this, you know, I gotta make sure that I'm gonna get [00:20:00] credit for it, that the retailer appreciates it, and that there's gonna be some, maybe some incremental display.
You know, and, and so there, there's very much, and I know we like to knock, sometimes the retail media is a tax or like, it feels like I'm paying them off. Uh, there's absolute media use out of that. It's just you. But, but I, I don't want to just ignore the fact that yes, there is a benefit to the, to the broader relationship.
Uh, and it depends on the p and l right on for every retailer, sometimes it's a separate thing and the merchant doesn't care if you're spending it. Right. Um, that I think can to be a little frustrating for a media buyer, you know, plucked into retail media is. Wait a second. You know, like there's, I have to, I have to put my thumb on the scale for this partner because they've been really great about accepting my client's product, that they have a wider assortment of my client's product here.
Like, but their media is not nearly as good and it's like, it's tough to, it's tough to keep all those variables in your head. Um, and I've said this in some, some other instances, it's just like I, I've told my team, Hey, by the end of this, you're gonna be able to run for [00:21:00] congress. 'cause you have to talk to so many different stakeholders and understand how to, how to, how to please everybody.
Um, you know, that, that's, uh, it, it's, it's a harder journey, but I think it's a really, that, that's where I get most excited is like, oh yeah, we're at the tip of the spear and like, we're really helping their business. And we're helping their business at Giant Eagle, not just at Walmart.
James Avery: Right. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.
Like I think it's what something that's kind of unique, more unique about retail media, right, is like it, it is in the, it's, it's been inserted into what is a really important relationship between a brand and a, and a retailer, right? Yeah. That's something those relationships have gone back. 150 years.
Right? Like you can go find a grocer that's been working with a big CPG brand for a hundred years and you're now, and now there's kind of a, a media angle in the middle of it, right?
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the merchant supplier relationship has existed for even longer, right. Just in general. And so it's like, oh, you're taking this dynamic that's been in place for so long and yeah.
Now, now here's the media guy coming in and, and asking what the cost is. And, and that's, sometimes I, I've said that even to [00:22:00] my boss several times, I'm just like, ah, I just don't wanna be the media agency jerk who's gonna, you know, upend things. Like, we gotta be cool.
James Avery: Yeah, totally. And I think, um, I kind of leads into, you know, one of the questions we have a lot is like, will, you know, I mean, I think right now there's kind of a lot of fragmentation, right?
Like, we joke, we're like, we're like, you know, launching a, helping people launch a thousand walled gardens. You know, so there's like kind of all this fragmentation, um, you know, you can call it inefficiency. People think about is, is consolidation coming? Is it gonna go programmatic? You know, like, do you know, is this kind of a, you know, the Cambrian explosion of retail media and then it's gonna gonna come back down.
Um, but then I think on the flip side, it's like you look at those relationships and you think, well, maybe it's not so like, how do you, how do you think about that?
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, that's a good, uh, that's a good topic. The, the whole idea of fragmentation, I think, um, the last 20 years has been all about a duopoly and, um, you know, and, and I don't wanna [00:23:00] talk about the, the merits of, of, of each of those partners, but we've been sort of trained, I think, as media buyers especially, but even as brand, brand marketers, that the marketplace can be simple.
And it's something that is, uh, should be simple and any economist is gonna tell you that a fragmented marketplace is good for buyers. Right. And so, you know, when I, I, I get on my high horse about this, but, but fragmentation is, is essential to a really healthy marketplace. And so, um, and this agency, uh, as, as most media agencies were born out of the fragmentation of cable and local TV and needing a deeper and deeper specialization that understood that world and wasn't just buying, you know, the, the couple networks in print and, and, and so.
Understanding that fragmentation fueled specialization of these agencies and sort of our reason for being, I'm like, yeah, I, I, we need that now. Um, hey, it's a benefit to the marketplace, uh, as you said. Is there gonna be some [00:24:00] consolidation? I'm sure there's gonna be some consolidation of the ad tech that powers these retailers, but, uh, as we saw, you know, the, the regulatory environment that.
Rent, regardless of party, is gonna be scrutinizing any sort of consolidation of the retailers themselves. Right. You know, particularly with grocery. I mean, uh, that, that's, that's certainly a world that people are very keen on keeping grocery prices down. And so enabling or accelerating consolidation on the retailer side might be a little bit difficult to do, uh, for anyone.
Uh, and so if they're gonna be separated, I think it, we're probably gonna be looking at any sort of consolidation beam. SSP based, um, hey, it's gonna connect to each of these partners. That being said is, is a merchant gonna seed the other half of their search, feed and experience to just a company? They don't necessarily that that's doing the same thing across all their competitors.
Maybe, maybe not. I think they're all gonna wanna have their special sauce. So I think [00:25:00] there's still gonna be a necessity for, alright, how do I understand the Hy-Vee algorithm versus the HEB versus the, uh, Safeway, you know, for, uh, Safeway, Albertsons, uh, yeah. Piece. And so, um. I, I, you know, again, that, and I'm, I'm biased, right?
The media guy wants a fragmented marketplace. I could see a world where it, it starts to get a little more consolidated, but I hope it still retains. And I think there's reason for believing that it'll retain some element of fragmentation from a, um, onsite perspective.
James Avery: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Because I think, I think especially retailers just have a, you know, not only the unique relationship we talked about with the supplier, uh, you know, the merchant relationship, but also.
You know, they, they have a physical footprint, right? They have something that, that is not, you know, unlike a website. 'cause we kind of saw this in, in first digital, right? It was like originally you're buying single campaigns on a OL or on CNN and then now it's kinda like, well you're go to Trade Desk and you buy across all of 'em.
'em. Um, but I think though they [00:26:00] never had that, you know, really defensibility of like people are going into their store Right. Or people are, are getting that delivered anymore. Right? Like, it was like, it all kinda became commoditized. I think in retail media we're never gonna see it get fully commoditized because there is all these things we've just talked about, that unique relationship that, that, you know, the idea of a physical store that, you know, you're actually at this point of commerce, right?
Lee Dunbar: Right. Yeah, no, it's uh, that, that's what makes it, you know, very interesting. I think. I think we may see more of the consolidation or syndication on the offsite. Certainly. Um. And, and you see trade desks start to talk about data marketplaces and, and really starting to own more of that relationship. Then again, you know, back to fragmentation, you're seeing Yahoo and Google start to lean into the retail data marketplace world.
You're seeing meta start to do the same thing. So there may still be some, um, fuel for, for the choices that we can have in offsite too. Yeah,
James Avery: no, absolutely. And I think, uh, I mean offsite, you know, [00:27:00] offsite retail media, like I think you guys have probably been buying data with. Buying campaigns with retailer data for 10 years.
Right. Like, it's not really a Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not really a new thing. It's just now retail media, so that's great.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. No, you can be more direct and, and, and, uh, specialized, which is, um, you know, that's, that's what's been so powerful. And the prices have come down, you know, significantly from where they were.
Right.
James Avery: So I think one of the, you know, you obviously get to, you get to look at a lot of different retail media networks, and I know lots of the, lots of people listening to this are, are, you know, the people on the other side, the people building those retail media networks. So really as like, you know, from your position, what do you, what are you seeing that's exciting out there?
Right? It like either new units or measurement or, you know, what, what, when you see as, you know, a new retail media network announces a feature, like what, what would excite you as a buyer?
Lee Dunbar: I think the. The more things can get integrated easily. Um, you know, so Best Buy, um, and I, and full disclosure to their client, [00:28:00] but I, and I told this to their face, I was like, this is really great, is the ability to get onsite, uh, inventory, uh, via, uh, via programmatic and just having that as a deal dead simple.
But I think it's a great way to incorporate onsite inventory in a very controlled way. That can be integrated into a plan. And, and I think we'll find more and more ways that that sort of allows a national brand to incorporate maybe some of that, uh, some of that inventory, um, particularly within store, uh, and some of the screens.
There's some, there's some great, um, you know, takeovers and things like that, that I think are, are powerful. But the more that can get, hey, that's an inventory source for my at-home buy and, and, or that's, that's an inventory source for my programmatic video buy. Um, that's another area where I get, you know, again, it sounds very, you know, simple, but I think that's another great way to be like, all right, how can I incorporate that?
You know, there was years ago we used to treat, um, gas station TV [00:29:00] as a day part in video bind. Just because we wanted to incorporate different channels and, and layers. And so, um, I would love to see a world where in-store starts to kind of reflect some of that opportunity of, hey, it can be a day part in my video strategy.
And it's sort of dead simple. The brand just sort of includes that within their plan, and it's not, it's not the sort of standal grandiose, standalone plan with a publisher that I have to sell in every year. It's just part of my, part of my media ecosystem.
James Avery: Yeah. And do you think, like when you're doing that, would you, would you wanna be buying, you know, the specific retailer or does it get as open as, Hey, I'm happy to buy any grocery chain in this DMA that I'm targeting?
Right.
Lee Dunbar: It depends. Right. For non-endemic, you can imagine A QSR is gonna want any. Um, now for, for endemic, I, you know, I think there still has to be some element of, um. Choice and, and, and, and really being intentional with what [00:30:00] retailers you include there. Um, and even within in-store, I, I've, I've talked about this, um, with, with several clients and, and with agency partners.
I think out-of-home is, is, I mean, digital signage in stores. Very easy on the perimeter and in entryways and in um, and in checkout when we start to get into the, um, to the world of endcaps and at shelf. I feel like I'm primed and ready to get the merchant not very happy with me. Yeah, yeah. If I just like buy this sign and oh man, that's, that's behind a competitive brand's product that I spent weeks trying to figure out that in the planogram.
And so, um, so yeah, there's definitely gonna be some back and forth and, and it's like, all right, for that I probably need to be ha you. Very partnered with a merchant to make sure that I'm telling a cohesive story on the perimeter. I'm like, yeah, all day we're finally, you know, we're getting these, we're getting these shoppers, and maybe they'll buy us the next time they're here.
Particularly when we're talking about food, CPG and where people are coming there with frequency.
James Avery: And you met, [00:31:00] you kind of talked about this a couple times, but I'm curious where, you know, do you see, you know, most, I'd say today we mostly see retailers a hundred percent focused on endemic, right? Like, they're looking at how do we, how do we get, you know, the, the brands that we have in the store.
You know, do you think non-endemic will will make its way to retail media? Oh, certainly.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think it's like, um, I don't think there's this flood of cash waiting for the retailers if they only just opened it up. Um, and I've told that to folks that are looking for the non-endemic dollars, um, I think in some cases it's easier, you know, for, uh, for a non-endemic to make that investment because they're not, they're not beholden to the merchant or any sort of, there's no like.
There, there's no relationship hangover or anything. It's just like, great, I can be in Aldi's. Well, let me be there. Yeah. Let me, let me go to Walmart's. I want to be there because I know the next place they're gonna go. Is probably, you know, to get lunch with your kid or to go get a coffee. Um, and so for [00:32:00] QSR it makes sense or for, for insurance, right?
I mean they're, they're finding, trying to find anybody who owns a own, owns a home and, right. And so you're, you, you're getting to these wide distribution, uh, places. You know, checkout screens is a great case of, for an endemic, you would think it makes total sense for them. But for non-endemic, it's a lot easier because the, every endemic client I've talked to with checkout screens, I'm like, you're gonna see everybody who shops in that store.
Aren't you excited? They're like, well, yeah, on their way out, need their purchase on their way out. I'm getting 'em on the way out. You're killing me. You know? And, uh, and so that's a little difficult, but I'm like, oh, it's such an opportunity. They're looking at the screen. Um, and so that's like, well, it's a branding opportunity for a non-endemic, right?
Um, and, and so that's, uh, again, way easier of a, of a sell, I think. Um. But yeah, I think, I think it'll be interesting as, as, um, you know, you might see sort of two-tiered pricing, two-tiered benefits, uh, for non endemics to, to lean in to, uh, to the stores, particularly within store. But I think the [00:33:00] audiences too, I mean, there's a lot of unique, um, data sets in terms of, alright, if I, if I look at convenience store data as a way to get it folks on road trips, great.
For QSR. If I look at different flavor profiles, that's a great way to sell in maybe a product that attaches itself well to that flavor profile. Maybe they're in a barbecue, lemme send a, you know, sell barbecue sandwiches to the pe those people. Um, and of course there's gonna be some interesting ways of, you know, some convenience stores might view QSRs as a competitor.
So there's, there's, there's some, uh, some fights to be had.
James Avery: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just. Thinking more about it, right? There's even like the, the quasi endemic, right? Like if you're, if you're checking out at the grocery store and, and you know, you just bought a couple racks of ribs, you know, it's like, wouldn't wouldn't somebody who makes a grill or a smoker.
Wanna reach you right there. Right, right. Like, it's just a branding opportunity. Like the, the store doesn't sell that, but it's not, it's not like just State Farm insurance. Right. Which I'm sure they want to be there too, but it's like a different, [00:34:00] you know, it's something that, it's, it's, it's tied to that data that in the moment, you know, purchase data that you have that's unique.
Lee Dunbar: Right.
James Avery: Um, you know, you also probably assume they have a house, right? 'cause you're right. Grilling ribs on your, your patio at the apartment, you're gonna burn it down. Right. So you can make, make assumptions and learn things about, about the data here.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. Yeah. To really make
James Avery: that endemic kind of, or non-endemic kind of more powerful and targeted.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. No, and there's nothing more personal in terms of all the different signals than in someone's grocery list. Right. It's just like the, everyone's got their own sort of nuances and Yeah. The barbecue ribs or, or anything in terms of what, uh, what interests them? How many kids do they have? Are they eating at home a lot?
Are they out?
James Avery: Yeah.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah.
James Avery: And what do you think, so kind of looking, you know, looking five years ahead, like where, you know, what do you think's change? What's, what's gonna change in retail media? Uh, you know, if we're five years in the future?
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. I mean, um, I, I, I hope that. More media buyers and media strategists are deeply [00:35:00] familiar with the retailers that are important to their clients.
Um, I think that's the, that's the hope I have from a, you know, strategy and approach standpoint. Um, from a technology perspective, I think we may see a greater evolution of programmatic and, and, and. Around, you know, moments of intent or like pre intent, like starting to model more of that, um, to get it folks before maybe they engage a, uh, an agent, an AI agent.
Um, you know, I, I think that that'll be really interesting to see how ag agentic, retail, retail start starts to impact how people interact with the retail sites. Um, there's a great article floating around in terms of treating their.com, any brand.com, any retailer.com, as just part of someone's workflow.
You know, you don't visit walmart.com anymore or kroger.com anymore, or aldi.com anymore. You have your agent go there and, and they sort of sort it out and look at the grocery list that you had last, [00:36:00] uh, last week and maybe, you know, ask you a few questions in terms of like, Hey, do you want to really have that meal again?
Or, you know, maybe you wanna, maybe you wanna look at this adjacent one that's just as easy to make. And, um. And I, I would love a world where maybe it starts to get a little cross retailer. Uh, one example, uh, I I've, I've seen, you know, get discussed is, is there a world where retail media is part of someone making their grocery lists and then bidding that out to four or five different retailers with their, uh.
Uh, with their agent to say like, okay, well hey, you know, I, I, I got a hundred bucks here and like, you know, if you could lower that down, I'll definitely get my order through you guys. Now, that's not something I can do as a human, but an agent certainly can do that. Yeah. Particularly if it's getting delivered.
There's no skin off of my back to have a different grocery fulfill that. You know, obviously everyone's got their own, you know, nuances in terms of what brands they like, but that's something that's like. There's incentives for people to do that in order to save money. Now, where does advertising [00:37:00] fit into that?
There's certainly gonna be some opportunity for suggested items or suggested trips and, and the retailers bidding each other out, and maybe the advertising goes towards that margin that they lose. Like I, I think there's some really. Interesting, uh, ways that people can purchase in more sophisticated ways.
I don't think the agents will be completely free to go make whatever purchases they want, but the fact that I can be enabled by an AI agent makes me kind of a su, a super shopper. You know, someone that like, can absolutely do whatever they want and, and, and extract the most value, particularly for maybe my family's groceries than than I ever have.
So, um, that's, I mean, you, you start to talk about that, that doesn't just impact retail media then, and that impacts marketing as a whole. Like how do I, how do I inspire someone with, with, with my, uh, with my video campaign, uh, to then maybe interact with that agent and, and get that added to their list, that sort of thing.
James Avery: Yeah, I think this has, this has become like the, the, the topic we always get to [00:38:00] on every episode so far, this podcast Good. Which is great because I think, and sorry, I guess, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's good timing. Um, you know, I think as we look at, as we look at where it goes, like Ally, right? Like the one world you can see, right, is that the, the media opportunity moves from the retailer's site, like to like an open AI to like an agent, right?
Yeah. Because like if you're, if you're at that point of, you know, if you're, if you're saying, Hey, I wanna make. You know, uh, chicken enchiladas tonight and the, you know, agent's like, here you go. This is what you need. You know, do you want me to order it for you? Right. It's like the media opportunity is kind of right there to be like, you know, hey, and if you'd like, you know, you normally get this salsa, but you know, would you like to try, you know, you should really try this other salsa that you, we think you'd like.
Right. And like that's a media opportunity, but it kind of shifts from, you know, you can't do that on kroger.com anymore. You have to, that now becomes open, AI is like, like business. Right, right. You know, I think it's going to disproportionately affect like CPG. Compared to some other like categories, like we were thinking about like, you know, my [00:39:00] refrigerator broke.
It's like I might go talk to the agent, talk to, you know, OpenAI and say like, Hey, I'm looking at a new refrigerator. This is what I currently have, but I'm probably not gonna tell it. Go buy me a $3,000 thousand dollars refrigerator. Right? I'm probably gonna go, I'm probably gonna go research, right? I'm probably gonna go say, I'm gonna click through to Home Depot.
I'm gonna click through to Best Buy. I'm. Go look at the different, you know, kind of spend some time on that. Right. Whereas, like you said, if I'm just getting, you know, chicken and beans and stuff delivered to my house, like, do I really care? Right. Like, it's like gonna be much more likely to kind of outsource that.
Lee Dunbar: Well, and, and what's interesting, and this is what's kept, um, you know, I think folks up at night from an e-commerce adoption of grocery, is there persistent categories that people are just very keen on buying in person. Like produce, you know? Yeah. And, and it depends on the, you know, segmentation and how that person, you know, what, what culture they're in and et cetera.
Whether or not they're gonna trust somebody, some picker to, to choose what peppers and bananas, et [00:40:00] cetera that they're gonna have. So there, there could be some interesting, you know, nuances there of like, well, I really like this type of cereal or this type of, um, item included. But I, I agree. Like CPG, it'll be, um, it's already very difficult, right?
Like, you know, you, you, the, the terms that we're really aggressive on, uh, when we think about sponsored ads are, you know, beef, ketchup. You know, uh, very commoditized terms to begin with. Right? And that's where obviously, you know, private label shows up quite a bit. In some cases, private labels just pinned to the top right.
Um, and so, uh, so yeah, I, I think it's, it's already been tough for CPG and maybe in this world it, it's, it's sort of, um, you know, similar. I do think there could be, the, the ways that, that people intervene maybe in their, in their purchases could be more, uh. Powerfully, uh, hit on with, with someone that's a brand that actually has a story to tell and has some unique capabilities.
But I mean, that, those are the same tricks in the bag, right. Of just like [00:41:00] do better marketing to try to make people love your brand and you have new innovation where nobody else has that.
James Avery: Yeah, absolutely. So it's,
Lee Dunbar: it's, it's tough.
James Avery: It's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting, right? It's gonna be, it's gonna be very interesting to see, uh, see how this all develops.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah, certainly. And, you know, and, and, um, and, and I think that there's some. Ways this rhymes with the voice search. Um, introspection I think we had for, for, for several years where we were like, well, you know, Alexa's everywhere. They're basically giving these items away and how are we gonna show up in voice commerce?
And there was a lot of heat on it, and then it sort of started to die down, I think, in part because it wasn't fun. You know, too fundamental a change from how folks are, are, are creating their grocery lists. And, and, and obviously people stopped sort of adopting that. I think with agents it'll be a little different, but I think I'm, I'm hearing the same sort of stories of like, all right, we gotta figure out discovery and like, how do we get our content better?
And, and it's almost like we gotta just return back to the fundamentals of just how do [00:42:00] we make sure we're eminently discoverable, wherever, you know? Right. Someone's looking.
James Avery: Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, like I think you're, you were right talking about the produce side where. You know, I'm still, maybe I'm old, but I go to the grocery store Right.
And, and buy my stuff at the grocery store, and it kind of brings in-store back into focus. Right. That if, sure. You know, maybe if, if e-commerce kind of starts to gravitate towards a lot of these agentic buyers for CPG, then, then you're really back to how do you make that in-store experience way better and more digital?
Right.
Lee Dunbar: Right. Yeah. How do you, uh, and, and it's funny, both from an in-store and then an online perspective, all this new technology almost shortens the trip. Right. And so it, it's like they have less time to make an impact, both in store and online because just how quick we're making commerce, just Yeah,
James Avery: absolutely.
Makes your job a little more interesting.
Lee Dunbar: Yeah. Yeah.
James Avery: Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on, Lee. I think, I think this will be a really interesting conversation for, for all of our listeners. Uh, and so I, I really appreciate [00:43:00] it.
Lee Dunbar: Oh, appreciate the time and this was, uh, wonderful.
James Avery: Uh, thank you for having me. Thanks for tuning in to unlocking Retail Media. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share this show with your network. We'll be back soon with more insights to help you navigate the future of retail media. See you next time.