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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 75 (Andy Littleton)
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[00:00:00]
Meet Andy Littleton
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Andrew Camp: Hello, and welcome to another episode of "The Biggest Table." I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
Today, I'm joined by Andy Littleton.
Andy has lived in Tucson most of his life and has been in ministry since he was 18 years old. He's worked and studied in many diverse ministry contexts throughout the years. He currently works for Mission Church, Resonate Global Mission, and Calvin Theological Seminary, where he loves to teach and invest in the lives of leaders. He's married to Michaela, a nurse, musician, and animal lover, and has a daughter named Abby, who is a kid whisperer. You can find his book projects and other content he shares from time to time on his personal website.
So thanks for joining me today, Andy. Looking forward to our conversation.
Andy Littleton: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Honored to be here.
Andrew Camp: You and I met last year at, uh, the Communities of Flourishing event that Caleb sort of sponsored, um- That's right
you know, and [00:01:00] then you and I are now working together to plan this event w- along with Caleb and other leaders throughout Phoenix and Arizona. But as you and I have talked, you were saying you've been on this journey with friendship, um- Yeah ... and hot dogs, and you're like, "Hey-" That's right. "... let, let's... Do you mind if we have a conversation?"
And so I said, "No, let's, let's talk," 'cause friendship, hot dogs, curious how it all intersects. We've talked a bit, so I, I, you know, I, I have a preview of what it does. So more than just- Okay ... a bio, like what, how has friendship worked its way into your w- you know, thought processes and your, your mind recently?
Andy Littleton: Yeah.
Loss, Grief, and the Wrigley Idea
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Andy Littleton: Yeah, well, I have a, I have a unique, uh, story and a, and a difficult one in that I lost my best friend about 20 years ago, 20 years ago, and it was a tragic, a tragic loss for me. Um, we were preparing for his wedding. I was the best man. Um, the last, like, phone call I had with [00:02:00] him was about how I hadn't picked up my shirt yet, and he was kinda chatting me for like, "Hey dude, like, you're gonna be my best man, and you're gonna have the wrong shirt 'cause you didn't get there on time and pick it up."
And I was like, "Ah, you know, shut up. No, that's not true. I'll get my shirt. Don't worry about it," you know? And, uh, and he and his wife, uh, left. They were leaving the Denver area coming back to Tucson, or his fiance, excuse me, uh, Valerie, were leaving the Denver area coming back to Tucson- for, for the wedding, but they were gonna meet up with some family beforehand.
They were driving through New Mexico and in kind of a long stretch of, uh, New Mexico desert, uh, she dozed off at the wheel and they rolled their vehicle and, uh, she died on the scene and I- my best friend Sam was airlifted and died at the hospital in Santa Fe. And so next morning, uh, I got a phone call from a family friend, you know, breaking the news to me that not only was, you know, my friend has [00:03:00] died, but like this meaningful moment, their wedding and every- you know, it's like it all, the whole narrative changed for us right there And so that was, uh, it was 20 years ago this year.
And so for me, that, um, thinking about friendship came through that terrible, tragic event. But ever since then, I've had this wrestling match with friendship internally, where I have wondered, will I ever have another friend that-- like that, close like that? Um, what does it, what does it mean to-- do you replace a person that you've lost?
Hmm. You don't really want to replace them, but it also feels like there's this void in you, this missing element in you. And so I think I've overthought, overanalyzed friendship over the years because of that, but also there's just a real grief and a, and a loss that I was grappling with and didn't know how.
Hmm. And so for me, the, uh, that story's been there. I've, I've [00:04:00] told stories about my friend. I've thought about my friend. I've talked to other friends about my friend. And I was encouraged to, to write about it. I'd written a book about my-- about fathers, about my dad, about people like my dad, and, uh, I was encouraged to consider writing again about, about my friend.
And immediately when I, when I heard that, I actually heard that, uh, in 2020 or 2021, and for anyone who's alive during that time- ... we know that relationships got clunky around that time, right? And in fact, my relationships were getting complicated, and probably the closest friend I'd ever made, uh, since Sam, um, and I were having a hard time during that very period of time.
And so for me, when I heard that idea, I, I immediately knew what to do. I s- I thought I would get in a 1971 Volkswagen and drive to Wrigley Field, and I would try to get friends [00:05:00] to come on the trip, and friends meet us in the bleachers at Wrigley Field, and we would explore this idea of how friendship happens, how it changes, um, how it impacts us, how to have hope for friendship again.
And I, I knew I would wanna wrestle through that, uh, with, with friends from my past, um, current friends, friends I was even struggling with in that very moment, and I would wanna invite them to bring some people who I'd never even met before so that we could have a, a dynamic of people meeting each other for the first time.
I would be the observer And I would utilize that to explore friendship. And so that's what, that's what happened last year. Um, September 1st of 2025 was a game at Wrigley Field. We drove the 1971 Volkswagen, which is actually my friend's car. Hmm. My friend Sam's car that we drove around as, as young guys.
Uh, we drove it, uh, that his da- his dad had worked on it. We drove it to Wrigley. [00:06:00] Uh, we got a small group to drive. We met the rest of the group in the bleachers, um, and we had an experience together, and I've, uh, written a, a manuscript about that journey, which is really my journey of friendship, utilizing the trip structure as a, as a platform to explore that and tell the story.
Andrew Camp: S- so why, why Wrigley Field?
Andy Littleton: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Why- Ah, yes ... what, what, what made that the, you know- The destination Yeah ... the pilgrimage.
Andy Littleton: Well, as is often true in, in friendships, there, you know, there can be a binding friend, like a friend that kind of brings people together. And in the American cultural experience, there, there are a few baseball teams that have that binding friend sort of, uh, motif to them.
Um, one might be, uh, the Yankees, usually hating them. Yep. Um, people bind together to dislike the New York Yankees. Some love the New York [00:07:00] Yankees. Um, but the- We don't talk about
Andrew Camp: the people who love New York Yankees. We, they, they, they-
Andy Littleton: I, I'd really rather not, yeah. Yeah. If we could move on from that.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Andy Littleton: Yeah. Um, but the, uh, the other two teams are the Atlanta Braves and the Chicago Cubs, or two of the other teams. And the reason for that is because their broadcasts were, uh, available and free all over the country.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: And so we actually went to a Braves and Cubs game, uh, on September 1st- Mm-hmm ... of last year.
And the Cubs were the team that Sam and his family were into. They were from Chicago, so WGN was always on in their household. Um, they would mute the TV and play the radio over it. Sam was a big fan of Ryne Sandberg. I was actually an Oakland A's fan as a kid, um, but I couldn't ever watch them play, and so I watched way more Cubs than I did, uh, Oakland A's.
And then our other, uh, close friend in our childhood, his name is Eric, and he was [00:08:00] a Braves fan, and so we could watch Braves games. So we watched Braves and Cubs games all the time. And so, uh, the Cubs though, um, for me, I had moved to Chicago, so it's the only other city I've lived in, and Sam was on the phone with me during that time.
He's like, "Don't screw this up. You have to go to a game at Wrigley Field. Like, you don't... You d- you're getting me a shirt." You know, my shirt. He got a shirt there and it was all getting worn out. He's like- ... "I need that, I need that, that slate blue Chicago shirt that s- it says Chicago in yellow that's sold on the street.
I don't want the official shirt. I want the knockoff shirt. You gotta get me the shirt." So I ma- I made it happen, got to a game, got him the shirt, got myself a shirt. Um, saw this magical game at Wrigley Field. Saw my first live grand slam. Mm. Um, had a, had the best hot dog, Chicago dog for life. Yep. Um, had my first, my first Chicago dog there and it was delicious.
Uh, I had... They were calling out winning tickets, and the person sitting next to me was like, "Hey, [00:09:00] check your ticket." I checked my ticket. I had the winning ticket. I won a autographed, uh, Hall of Famer Billy Williams baseball-
Andrew Camp: Wow ...
Andy Littleton: um, at the game. It was just amazing. So- Yeah ... I called Sam way back and I was like, "Dude, that was awesome."
And So, uh, all these years later, uh, as I was reflecting on this story I was gonna tell and going to Wrigley Field, I actually decided for myself that I was also going to re-engage with following baseball and become a Chicago Cubs fan in honor of Sam. So I, I became a Chicago Cubs fan in 2021 officially.
Okay. Um, after all those years, uh, as, as a way of not, not just telling the story and remembering Sam, but actually getting into the team he was into- Right ... and living a little bit in the experience he would've lived in following that, that baseball
Andrew Camp: team.
Road Trip Resonance at Wrigley
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Andrew Camp: So you make this journey in Sam's car. Yes. And so I'm curious, like, as you're headed and driving from [00:10:00] Tucson, are you, you know, to Chicago, like, what's it like to drive Sam's car?
Like- Hmm. Yeah ... you know, like, and to go to the place he l- like to go to his mecca, um-
Andy Littleton: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: like, what-
Andy Littleton: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: how, how, like- Mm-hmm ... as you're driving, what's percolating in your soul?
Andy Littleton: Yeah. It was such, such an incredible experience. I mean, first of all, I d- it wasn't... It starts way sooner than that, because to drive the car I have to, uh, engage with his parents and his- Hmm
father, who is a amazing, hilarious, opinionated, quirky, beautiful man, um, named Bob. And Bob loves his 1971 Volkswagens. He used to have three of them. So when, when I grew up going over to Sam's house, there were two '71 Bugs and a '71 Bus, and these were the ultimate vehicle. It was the best version of the car.
It was the one that he knew like the back of his hand. He had two engines in the inner [00:11:00] sanctum, which means his tin shed in the backyard, and he would have them ready to swap in as soon as one of the other engines was weak. And, um, and I heard about them all the time. I helped work on them. Sam was always getting roped into having to learn how to maintain these things.
And Bob was, um, he was torn on letting me take the car. Hmm. And, uh, we went back and forth from a hard, "Andy, it's time. This is the time. Do it," to a, "Nope, you're not taking the car. No way, no chance." And, uh, and it was a real roller coaster of a journey. And I got to know his parents in a new way as an adult, uh- Hmm
kind of negotiating about this trip and this car, and of course their grief, right? Yeah. And mine as they were, as we were talking about these things and telling stories and bringing out old videos. And Bob brings out his baseball card collection that I didn't know he still had, and-
Andrew Camp: Wow ...
Andy Littleton: bring, brings out the shirt that I [00:12:00] bought him that I didn't know- Wow
that they still had. And we had all these experiences of- Hmm ... of that, and he let me test drive the car. Uh, Bob completely rebuilt the engine and tranny when, after he said yes, and then he changed his mind after he did that. And so he let me test drive the car a couple times. And so in those early test drives, I think I probably had the most profound moments of just memory washing over me- Right
of like what it was like to ride with, with Sam in this car. I mean, this is the car when we were... We met in sixth grade. Like, his mother drove this car on the regular, and this was the one that they picked us up from school in, and then when he got older, both he and his sister would drive it. And so- Just so many.
I mean, the car still smelled like him, right? Mm-hmm. Like their family- Yeah ... their family has a smell.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yep.
Andy Littleton: And, uh, and the car carries the family scent and, like- Mm-hmm ... I could, I could just, you know, the imagination that I began [00:13:00] to engage in of what it was like to be with my friend 20 years ago was heightened, ex- you know, extremely heightened-
Andrew Camp: Yeah
Andy Littleton: by being in that car. And then on the trip, I, I had the unique experience of riding almost entirely the, the whole way there with my buddy Sean, who's the one who, uh, had become closest to me. We had planted a church together, been next-door neighbors together, and then the, the 2020, 2021, you know, divisions really hit us hard.
And he and I had reconnected a little bit, um, before this trip, and I invited him to go, and I told him what it was about. I told him it was about friendship. I told him that, you know, I knew our friendship was in bad shape, basically.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And, and I wanted to explore this with him. So that the car ride up with him, uh, 2,000 miles on the road in a '71 Bug, right?
Yeah. On the freeway, um, going up mountains. Uh, that was the l- the most intense time we had spent together [00:14:00] in, oh, four years.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Uh, and we-- 'cause we used to spend almost every day together, then there were the, this block of years where it changed, and then all of a sudden we're in the car. So we're in Sam's car, which is full of memory, but we're also having the, the deepest connection we've had since we kind of split ways in a way.
And so that was very unique, um, to have memory of Sam, memory of Sean, talking with Sean about our story. Sean's asking about Sam. I'm telling him about our dynamic as we're exploring our dynamic. You know, I'm telling him what it was-- So Sam was always the, the strong-headed friend-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: and he challenged me.
He was not intimidated by me at all, and he would tell me I was an idiot constantly, you know. And just, just, he was that kind of guy too. Like, he would, he would sort of like needle at your insecurities- ... but you knew, somehow you knew [00:15:00] that he loved you, you know?
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: And Sean is just his opposite. Sean is like a very sensitive guy who isn't always sure what to say-
Andrew Camp: Hmm
Andy Littleton: and he'll kind of like back off if, if, you know, he feels like he might not be right. And that, the dynamic in our friendship was he felt like I was always sure of myself and secure, and he told me about this for the first time on our drive. And he's asking about my friendship with Sam, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, Sam never, like, catered to me, ever."
And I realized how, in a way, those, like, dynamics of almost leadership dynamics that come up in friendships, how important they are to understand and how formative they are, 'cause part of the, the peace that I felt with Sam, and I didn't even-- I wouldn't have called it that, but was that I was with, with a strong person, an, an equal, and I maybe even viewed him as a superior to me.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: And he brought a certain, um, [00:16:00] calm to me by being so confident.
With Sean, he viewed me as the stronger, more confident person, but I still viewed myself as having serious things that I needed from him as a friend.
He didn't think I needed things.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: Not, not in the same way that I did.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: And so when he would distance himself 'cause he was unsure of himself, I would feel abandoned.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And, uh, that kind of dynamic is often unexplored and misunderstood, and one of the things I learned from Sean as we talked about Sam was, yeah, that just we had different appraisals of what we needed in the relationship and different appraisals of what we brought to the relationship, what power we brought to the relationship, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And what we had to offer to each other. We just didn't, we didn't view it the same, and some of that had to do with our own internal stories. Part of even we-- I discovered, which I didn't know, [00:17:00] was that Sean diverging from me wasn't simply about the opinions that we had and getting on different sides of those opinions.
Part of that was his own internal journey of making a decision for himself and differentiating himself from me. Hmm. That seemed really important for him. And I ha- I never would've factored that in to like a COVID era disagreement. I would've thought it was just about politics or religion or, you know, w- mandates or whatever.
But when I really talked to him all those years later, it had very little to do with that. It, it had a lot to do with that internal story of who am I in relationship to these other people, and he was wrestling with that. Like, do I make my own decisions or do I follow this person who's always been strong for me?
And, um, that-- When I looked back on my relationship with Sam I thought, whoa, I was in the same place with him. I was in the same place with this grade school guy named Jimmy who I [00:18:00] reconnected with on this journey too. I looked up to him. I needed him. At some point I had to stand on my own two feet even if I was wrong and, and learn who I was.
And so it just opened up my mind to some of those dynamics that were going on underneath the surface of friendship.
Andrew Camp: There's way too much to unpack like in what you just said. Um, one, thank you for sharing. Um, but two, I think the important-- what you like mentioned about like this differentiation and expectations- Mm-hmm never talk about, you know?
And then friendship- Yeah ... slowly dissipates, and then we say, "Hey, it was because he was, he voted for X, or wanted- Yeah ... stood up for that," verse, you know, whereas- Yeah ... your point is, no, maybe there's some bigger story on, you know, that this person is wrestling through. Yes. That many times maybe we don't know what to actually talk about or how to talk about it.
Um- Yeah ... and so it's easy to [00:19:00] put friends at a distance because of a surface issue. Mm-hmm. Maybe not a surface issue, but, like, a p- political issue versus an internal struggle that- Yeah ... maybe if we took time to talk about, the friendship could have maintained versus, you know, a distancing.
Andy Littleton: Or in our case, maybe the, for the friendship to actually grow, we needed to go through that process of differentiation-
Andrew Camp: Yeah
Andy Littleton: and learn to stand on our own two feet and come back together as friends and explore that.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And I think sometimes, u- unfortunately, what happens... Well, first of all, you know, there, there are no just political issues, right? Yeah. There are no just cultural issues. Like, we do the same kinda thing with, you know, spiritual issues and secular issues.
Like, we're kind of Platonic in our thinking, where we, we wanna have, you know, like, columns for everything.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: This, oh, this is that. This is [00:20:00] that. And in a, in a friendship or a family relationship that got sideways, you know, because of polarization or something like that, it's, it's never just a political issue.
Your, your dynamic, your story- ... your inner world, your need to kind of define yourself in relationship is always in play. Mm-hmm. It's always there. There, these issues are never... I mean, to say political, that word, from my understanding, is what it means to live in a city together and, and- Yeah ... on a hyper scale, um, to live in relationships with e- with one another.
Like, political issues are political issues because we're wrestling with how to live in relationship with each other, and some of that has to do with what we think we bring to the table. So for me, part of it was owning, okay, I do have leadership dynamics. I do.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And I, and I need to understand how those play out in a [00:21:00] relationship.
Um, and others- are maybe needing to develop their leadership dynamic, or maybe they're owning the fact that, like- Hmm ... my dynamic that I bring to the table is different. Hmm. Uh, it's valuable, but, but it's different, and I need to understand that. And so when we're, when we're grappling over issues or getting into arguments about political issues, that stuff's always, always there.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: It, it always. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: S- so you get, you know, you have this journey in the b- bug with Sean. Mm-hmm. And you're reconnecting, and then you get to the game with 20 or so other people. Yeah. And so what w- like, what was the experience like at the game, you know, for you- Mm-hmm ... um, you know, for the group? Like, how, what, what came of the game?
Andy Littleton: Yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna say a quick call-out that, that a core person [00:22:00] has not yet been mentioned, and I'll give him... I wanna talk about him more. Yeah. That's my buddy Pike, and he was there for the beginning of the trip, too. He drove in, uh, in my Highlander. He tailed the Bug in another car.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: Uh, so, so he, he wasn't in those conversations with Sean and I, but in between, all the in-betweens, he was there, and I'll, I'll talk about him more.
But at the game, yeah, we, um, so we arrive in Chicago. First, uh, little fun fact is the Bug, um, only broke down twice on us on the way up there, and, uh, I think that's a pretty decent, uh, track record for going 2,000 miles in a Bug that hadn't done that in a real long time.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Andy Littleton: And we, uh, we figured it out. We got there.
We drove around Wrigley Field, and we parked it at the Airbnb. And, uh, s- slight spoiler, it never runs again on our trip. It, we park it at the Airbnb, and that somehow it got there and it went, "I'm done." You know, Bug was like, "I did it, and I'd like to, uh, get a free ride [00:23:00] home, please."
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: So the, uh... But we didn't know that at the time, so we're, like, in victory mode.
We made it. You know, we got some great photos around Wrigley Field. Um, people started rolling in from, from other places. So Pike and Sean and I are there. Um, uh, Tony, who was one of Sam's, like, closest friends from high school as well, just flew in, and he was on, on the train. He's on the blue line. Uh, we've got, uh, his brother-in-law, Colin, and little nephew, CJ, who actually never met Sam but is the most, um, similar to Sam human in, on the planet.
He, uh-
Andrew Camp: Okay ...
Andy Littleton: not, not only does he kind of look like Sam's younger, uh, self, but he's got the same attitude, which is just eerie and cool. And then we had some folks coming in from, from our church. We had a, uh, a buddy, Jim Mullins from Phoenix, uh, showed up with a friend of his who I'd never met before. And so now we're all gathering at Murphy's Bleachers, kind of the iconic bar outside of the bleachers.
Uh, so [00:24:00] some, some of the people were able to make it there and have drinks- Mm ... and so we're starting to intermingle. But in that moment, you know, Pike and Sean are meeting people they've never met before. I'm meeting somebody I've never met before, and this kind of new dynamic is coming into play. Um, Tony and Colin are definitely meeting mostly people they've never met before.
And, uh, we, we chose to sit in the bleachers of Wrigley, uh, specifically because, uh, number one, Wrigley Field is called the Friendly Confines. Um, and so that's its, uh, that's kind of its tagline that came from a conversation with Ernie Banks and a, uh, and a former player named Jerry Kindall. Hmm. And so, the, the cool thing, which I discovered that as I was doing all my research, was that I knew Jerry Kindall.
Um, Jerry Kindall was an elder at my church. He gave me a, a monetary Christmas gift one year. He would stop and talk to me in the halls. I didn't even know he played for the Cubs.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: Um, I knew he had played professional baseball, but I didn't know he played for the Cubs, and I [00:25:00] definitely didn't know that he and Ernie Banks coined the phrase, "The Friendly Confines."
Crazy. Super fun little tidbit. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, uh, the bleachers at Wrigley Field are the only, uh, section in Major League Baseball where there are not assigned seats.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: And so, uh, you get a bleacher ticket and you can just find your area, find your people. So the cool thing was we knew that we could invite anybody to meet us at this game, and if they got a bleacher seat, we could sit together if we showed up on time and made it happen.
Yeah. So we get in there. Some of the people aren't there quite on time, um, and so we're thinking, "How do we, how do we reserve these seats without making people mad?" 'Cause we're trying to save, like, 20 seats.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And, or 15 more seats or whatever. So, uh, Sean and I have this little idea that if we start playing catch in the bleachers, like throwing a baseball back and forth, chances are no one will sit in the middle of where the ball is being thrown.[00:26:00]
Yeah. And, um, we can communicate something, you know, to people that we have some friends coming, which is a little bit frowned upon.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Uh, especially 'cause we were in the front row. Uh, but the, uh, the other thing is we'll just subtly ward people off by throwing a ball. So we start playing catch, we just start throwing the ball in the bleachers, and all of a sudden we've got people up in the bleachers and beside us that are, like, holding out their hands like they wanna play catch as well.
And so the ball starts, like, going all over the bleachers, and this one time this dude, like, calls for the ball and we throw it and he drops it right in his girlfriend's beer.
Andrew Camp: Oh, gosh.
Andy Littleton: And it splashes in there, and she's, like, giving him the stink eye, you know. And then everybody starts, like, chanting, "Chug, chug," you know?
And he grabs the beer with the ball in it and ah, ah, ah, you know? Hmm. And then it's like everybody's cheering and the girlfriend's laughing. And, um, so it becomes all of a sudden this thing that two of us started-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Andy Littleton: catches on, right? Yeah. And [00:27:00] becomes a mem- a memory that's gonna be held by all these people we'd never even met before who will remember a little bit more about that game, uh, because of the, the game of catch we played.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: Uh, other people started showing up. Pike, our friend, he's not a baseball fan, and so he was kind of like, "Man, I don't know, you know. I gotta get through this." And then we had another buddy there who actively, uh, he's, he's kind of an engineer, and his view of baseball is like, "This is a really boring thing that jocks do," you know?
And, uh, and so we just had people who were interested in the game, who weren't. We had people sitting next to each other, and one of them would go, "Hey, we're actually saving these seats for, uh, some friends of ours." And they would go, "Oh, are, are you here with the 2,000 Miles to Wrigley journey?" "Oh, yeah. How'd you know about that?"
"Well, 'cause that's what I'm here for." "Oh, you-- Oh, we kn- Oh." Okay.
Andrew Camp: Oh.
Andy Littleton: They were disco- Yeah ... they were discovering their connection in live real time. And then I watched some of them sit next to each other and gain an affinity for each [00:28:00] other. Sean and Colin, uh, Sam's brother-in-law, they discovered this whole musical connection.
Hmm. And I have a feeling they're gonna stay connected for maybe the rest of their lives over that. Yeah. I have a feeling that Colin will come to Tucson from Oklahoma, and that Sean will join us for a concert because we discovered those kind of connections, you know? Yeah. And so it, it was-- I mean, it couldn't have been more, more perfect in a way.
Like, everybody got there on time for the game, but I really did feel like I was seeing those dynamics play out, that I was seeing people meet each, each other for the first time. Hmm. Discovering things about each other for the first time, discovering leadership dynamics in each other for the first time, finding ways of connection through playing something simple like playing catch for the first time.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And then, um, and we got a great game. Uh, it's probably one of the best games of the year. And one of the things I'd been wrestling with, and I know, I know you wanna talk about this, Andrew, um, uh, was I had been wrestling with this [00:29:00] idea of kind of resonance and control. So I had, previous to doing all this, and one of the things that encouraged me to do this, was I'd listened to some Andrew Root, and I'd spent some time, uh, under, you know, lectures of Andrew Root at a, at an event in Michigan I'd gone to too.
And he was talking a lot about our culture. He was talking a lot about the, how people were connecting spiritually more in the memoir, um, than they were in many other places, that they were looking for spiritual guidance that, that came from kind of gurus, if you will- Yeah ... who had gone and experienced something.
And so I, I had that thing rattling around in my mind, and I'd read a book that Andrew Root suggests, uh, by Hartmut Rosa, which is called "The Uncontrollability of the World." So I had... Here I am, you know, doing like jock road trip stuff, but I've got this like thick, deep [00:30:00] angst in me where I'm going, "Am I trying to control this?"
Like, well, I'm, I'm taking the role of kind of setting up this trip and bringing these people together, but I, I, I think I can create outcomes. I can't.
Andrew Camp: No.
Andy Littleton: When they, when these people get together, their train might be late, their flight might be delayed. We might get a bummer of a baseball game, right? That is just a snoozer.
We might, we might have a pitcher's duel that goes, you know, it's just zero to zero till the 15th inning. Um, we could, we could have people meet that don't really have a good time, right? Mm-hmm. And it doesn't really click. Um, there, there are so many ways this could not work, and I have to release it. And I can try to control it, but to Root and Hartmut Rosa's point, that very [00:31:00] modern approach of trying to control things tends to be what disrupts resonance and actually gets in the way of us being in the moment and experiencing something that comes to us as a gift.
Yep. So the night before the game, I'm sitting there and I'm going, "I'm gonna do it. I'm not gonna sleep. I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit here and try to map out the whole day tomorrow and figure out how to make it work." And I just was like, "I... How do I not..." And Hartmut Rosa, how his resonance he, he describes as fall- a, a falling asleep experience.
When you try to control falling asleep, you can't fall asleep.
Andrew Camp: No. Yeah.
Andy Littleton: The only way to fall asleep is to stop trying.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And so I'm sitting there in this... I actually was on a air mattress for that first night because we had more people there, or yeah, we had the most people there at that moment. And I just thought- [00:32:00] I give up.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: I, I give up. Yeah. I can't, I can't do any more I just gotta go to bed.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And I actually fell asleep-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: and slept through the night.
Andrew Camp: Wow.
Andy Littleton: Which surprises me. And I felt like that was very symbolic of what happened the next day. That- Mm ... I just chose to just move through the day. Whoever was in front of me, I would talk to.
If somebody couldn't get there, oh, well. You know?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And we would come up with things like playing the catch, playing catch on the fly. We'd let the game happens how it happens. I just gotta, I've just gotta be here for it, right?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: And I feel, um, like we truly did receive a gift. Like, it couldn't have been a better day.
It, it- Yeah ... went so well, and I know that doesn't always happen, but I just got to be really, really grateful for it. And, uh, Jim, our buddy, who's... He actually was not in the bleachers 'cause [00:33:00] he'd received two tickets from one of the, a person at his church who actually works with MLB players.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: So he was across the, the ballpark, and he said that he broke a cardinal rule of his, was that he actually believes it is wrong to pray for a sporting event.
Um, that it is, it is against, you know, his principles to think that one team that has a bunch of people who believe in Jesus, you know, in their fan base- Right ... should beat another team that has a bunch of people who believe in Jesus. They're... It's just silly.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: But, but he said as the game went on, uh, he started to decide he was gonna break his rule.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: And he was gonna pray that the Cubs would beat the Braves, because the Cubs were behind most of the game.
Andrew Camp: Wow.
Andy Littleton: And he, uh, he was just like, "I just want this for my friends-"
Andrew Camp: Yeah ... "
Andy Littleton: who are over there, who, who came for this, this big event." And, uh, the Cubs came back, [00:34:00] um, on a, a big, big play by the catcher, Carson Kelly.
Cr- critical hit. Go into extra innings. Um, in extra innings, in the bottom of the 10th, that same guy, Carson Kelly, comes up to bat again and hits a walk-off double.
Andrew Camp: Wow.
Andy Littleton: And they win the game, and pandemonium breaks out.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And then, uh, as we went over to a pizza place to kinda follow up and hang out, Jim told me, he said, "Hey, we found out which player gifted us our tickets," you know?
Andrew Camp: No.
Andy Littleton: I was like, I was like, "Whoa, who was it?" And I thought it was one of the Braves, 'cause he did too. He said his buddy who gave it to him was k- kinda from the South.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: He goes, "It wa- it was actually Carson Kelly."
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: Carson... We had Carson Kelly, the hero of the game, gave us our two seats. And there were just all of these little things, it was like, come on, that's too good, you know?
Yeah. And, uh, it just felt like we'd been given a gift that- Right ... um, however that works for God and all the [00:35:00] poor Braves fans who love Jesus who didn't get a win that day, uh, it, it felt like we got a gift.
Andrew Camp: No, it's those little moments, you know, and yeah, like you said, I- h- how it all works in this universe, like, you know?
Andy Littleton: No idea. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No idea. But again, it goes back to your point and when you were describing the game and catch and people connecting, I'm like, "Okay, this is resonance." Like, you know? Yes. So you went there automatically and, you know, you were reading my mind because we both love Andy Root. Maybe it's because we all share a s- common name.
Andy Littleton: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Or maybe- We're all
Andy Littleton: Andrew Andys, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yep. Um, you know, and we're trying to convince the world that Andy is the voice more people in the church need to listen to, and, um, outside the church. And yeah, Hartmut Rosa, uh, his work. But, you know, to receive those gifts and, you know, I even- Mm-hmm ... you know, the gift of the Bug making it, you know, and then petering out- Yeah
as soon as it hits Wrigley Field feels apropos maybe, you know? Um- [00:36:00]
Andy Littleton: Well, beyond, beyond apropos. So I, I was frustrated and I was gonna try to figure out... We tried to, um... The funny thing is I'd broken one of my... I, I had installed an auxiliary switch in the Bug, okay? Um, and that auxiliary switch was gonna give me the ability to charge iPhones and stuff like that in it.
And but I, I didn't, um, part- partly because of how the Bug works and where the wires were, I had it hot-wired to where I had to turn the switch off in order to turn off that power source so it wouldn't drain the battery. And I had done very good with that until then. I forgot. We were excited about getting to, to Chicago, I forgot to turn it off.
Towing Trouble Unexpected Gift
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Andy Littleton: So it seemed like a pretty simple fix, you just jump the car and move on, and we tried that and didn't do it. Didn't work. Hmm. We push-started it, and it would start, and then it would die, and it was like, clearly something else was going on. And I kind of just in this moment of realizing, um, we needed to go because Pike, my other friend, had, [00:37:00] um, friends that he wanted to meet up with in Oklahoma.
So we were gonna meet up with some of his friends as part of the journey, and if we didn't stay on schedule, we were gonna mess that up, and also just make things stressful. And I had committed to Bob that I would have a backup plan if the car broke down, so I had a a tow bar already pre-installed on the Bug.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: And all, all we had to do was just put two pins in it and hook it up to the back of my Highlander. So just made the call, "You know what? We gotta prioritize our timeline here, especially for Pike's sake." And we hooked up the Bug. Well, what I hadn't thought about was, you know, with Pike trailing me in that other car, it...
I wasn't getting a lot of time with Pike, right? Yeah. I wasn't getting as meaningful time with Pike. And because of choosing to tow the car... And we [00:38:00] end up, we-- I, I keep thinking every city we get to, I was like, "Well, I'll fix it there, and then we'll keep driving it." I really wanted to drive it. But every city we got to is like, we were either a little behind or the thing I tried didn't work, and so we just kept not fixing it, and, uh, towed it all the way home.
Mm. But the other amazing thing in that was the very thing that I realized at the end was I needed, I wanted and needed every minute of that time I got with Pike-
Andrew Camp: Mm. Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: in the Highlander. And it was actually even ideal that we were in the Highlander, because it's quieter.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And easier to talk, right?
And, um, Pike and I have-- We never had, like, a, you know, a breach in our relationship.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: But we just hadn't talked that deeply in a long time.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Andy Littleton: And so having, having that space, even when something went, in my mind, wrong, uh, it was crucial. Yeah. It was exactly what we needed. And, and I, I really do look at that and I say, "Wow, [00:39:00] I didn't know what I n-" But we were given exactly what we needed, and maybe even at the core wanted and didn't know how to get to it.
So it was a, yeah, beautiful thing.
Andrew Camp: And again, it goes back to Andy's work of that maybe the gift of Christ is we're given not what we want, but what we need. Yes. And that the spiritual life is, is met in those moments where we can meet each other in our, in our needs-
Andy Littleton: Yes ...
Andrew Camp: versus what we think we want, which might- Yes
be just all that glitters- Yeah ... may not be what the deeper, uh- Yeah ... root of what we long for in life.
Andy Littleton: Spaces of sorrow, consolation, the places we wouldn't go. I mean, I think a couple of the conversations I had with Pike were, I mean, we, we, we can always be lighthearted. We have a great time. Yeah. But, but we talked, talked about a couple things that were a little more in that sorrow category and that- [00:40:00] Mm-hmm
um, consolation category that we-- I don't think we would've gotten to if we were having periodic conversations, right? Yeah. And, and that's, that's exactly right, that I even, even, you know, there's a resonance in that- Mm-hmm ... that we seemingly by nature avoid. Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, Andy Root is saying to the church that as the church we've bought in to trying to provide something that doesn't go there, that doesn't- Yeah
require that. Something that's more palatable, that's-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Andy Littleton: more marketable. And he's saying how we're losing the power of the cross.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Right? Um, we're losing the, the power that the cross gives us to enter into consolation, um, into sorrow.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: And in what feels like progress and growth, we've actually gone backwards.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: So, yeah.
Andrew Camp: So as you've, [00:41:00] you know, you've had a year, I guess, to reflect to- Yeah ... to sort of make sense of this and- Mm-hmm ... um, I think the journey's cool. Like, but most of us, many of us won't have that opportunity.
Andy Littleton: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? And so, like, as you've thought about friendship, like, how, how do you, how do you make sense of taking what this beautiful trip of resonance, this gift- Mm-hmm
but say, okay, what, what do we need to learn about friendship to, you know, as- Yeah ... you know, you and I go about our regular days, you know, maybe in the what we would call the doldrum of, of life, you know?
Andy Littleton: Oh, totally.
Andrew Camp: Um, so like, yeah, what, what... Yeah, where do you, what are you making sense of?
Shoulder To Shoulder Friendship
---
Andy Littleton: Well, there, there are so many things, and I, you know, in that year I've, I've completed the, the manuscript.
It's not a, I'll edit it more. Mm-hmm. There will be more work done to it. But I, I've done the work [00:42:00] of making it a whole story, which is very formative, uh, work to do. So I, I... There's been a lot of reflection, uh, on the whole thing, and I expect more as time goes on. But, uh, a few themes have emerged. One, uh, Jim Mullins, who was across the, across the ballpark from us, one of his observations even, like, the week after when he and I talked is he was, uh, he was asking me, and kind of illuminating for me to some degree, the idea that what he observed from across the ballpark was 22 people shoulder to shoulder looking out at something else and marveling in it, you know, a game.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And that how key those moments are for friendship. So he, he referred to C.S. Lewis, um, in The Four Loves where he talks about the type of the friendship love that says, "You too," to somebody, looks at somebody and says, "Wait, you too? You see [00:43:00] that too? You love that too?" Um, and how powerful those kind of, uh, moments are in forming something deeper.
And something that he's observed, and I've seen the same thing, is that there's... And, and I would put myself in this category. People have a deep longing for, for close friendships. For me, that, I didn't know I had that till I lost it.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: And I went and I started longing for it again and putting too much pressure probably on some relationships.
But, um, but sometimes when you want that so bad, you, you can actually short-circuit it by not just embracing, um, shoulder to shoulder simple interactions. So- In this case, we went to a game and had an experience together that we'll never forget. At church on Sunday, I had one of the, the, the engineer buddy of mine referred back to that game and something that happened there at church, even though he would still say he's not a baseball [00:44:00] fan, probably never go to another game again, right?
He-- That memory has become a core memory, and he referred not only to that, but to things he learned about me from being in a city where I lived and did ministry.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: You know? And, and that shoulder-to-shoulder experience we had of just getting to Chicago, walking around, taking the train, going to a game, sitting in the bleachers, did a lot for our relationship, I would say, right?
Yeah. And so, uh, I think that was one of the things that when Jim and I talked about it, we said some people, they just long for that depth, that they wanna rush into it. They wanna rush past the shoulder-to-shoulder experiences. I, I've been saying too that I think Sean and I, our conversation, the key part of it was probably from Arizona to New Mexico when we didn't talk about any of the heavy stuff.
Um, we were just kinda figuring out the car and, like, a little stressed out about is it gonna blow off the road next to this semi and, [00:45:00] you know, kinda laughing about, like, trying to get it to shift right. And-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: that experience, I think set the table-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: to, uh, to go with your metaphor, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: The biggest table.
It set the table for us to have the further conversation. We had to get, get there through shoulder-to-shoulder experiences. One of the-- At the end of the book, my buddy Johnny, who was at the game, who I was with yesterday, uh, at, at church and before church, um, we watched the end of the Cubs season together, uh, at Trident Grill here in town, and I drove the Bug for the, what ended up being the final game, uh, where the Brewers, uh, knocked the Cubs out of the playoffs, and it was not a great game for us.
You know, no fun-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: as far as that goes. But I had driven the Bug there. We were, we were at Trident. Some of his family was there. We're watching the game and, you know, it doesn't go well. Uh, the, the Brewers beat the [00:46:00] Cubs, and we were walking out and Johnny said something that was so simple but so profound, and he just kinda, as we were walking out, he goes, "Well
You guys like basketball, right? Okay. What was he saying? He was talking about my wife and I, and I think he was reflecting on the baseball season just ended. That's had us hanging out a lot more.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: But the basketball season's coming- Mm-hmm ... and we could keep doing something together, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And it's just this simple thing, and, and it doesn't have to be sports, it doesn't have to be baseball.
Everybody has-- You know, if you're, if you play board games, if you play video games, if you like to hike, right? Yeah. There are all these pathways to get shoulder to shoulder with people, and I think if we can just embrace those, and then this comes back to the resonance thing Resist the, the, the pull to- Hmm
force it to become [00:47:00] something.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Just- Right ... just go enjoy it for what it is-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: with somebody.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And then be open to what would happen. I think sometimes when we s- try to control it, we actually disassemble it.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: Um, 'cause people can feel the difference-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: when they're, they're experiencing resonance with somebody and when somebody is trying to accomplish something, right?
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: Um, that might bring me to my, my hot dog thing for a second here. My, my brother-in-law and I have been spending a lot more time together, and where it started for us, uh, was there were two things, watching baseball, but one of the big things we did was we did a competition on who could make a new hot dog and a unique hot dog.
And we, uh, we've started theming these, we've done it multiple times now, where we themed it around the team that's playing or the city that's playing. We watched an old, we watched a Negro League game that it was like a [00:48:00] reenacted. Yeah. Um, the Major League Baseball went to a Negro League ballpark, wore the old uniforms.
So we had to do, um, a hot dog based on the city that the team was from, but also the African American, you know-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: uh, cul- culinary experience. And we-- So he had to do a St. Louis dog, and I had to do a San Francisco/Negro League-themed dog.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: And having to put in that creativity, and then we had our families eat the hot dogs and judge and, you know- Yeah
judge them
Andrew Camp: and- Hmm ...
Andy Littleton: um, so just creative ways to connect. And my birthday was this past week, and I got a text from my brother-in-law, and he just said, you know, "I'm so grateful for our relationship. I look forward to our next trip together." You know? But that's been developed just doing some- something like making hot dogs.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Just,
Andy Littleton: just something that feels so benign, so simple, but [00:49:00] that's where we've developed a closer relationship. And like Colin would say about Sam, uh, brother-in-law of my best friend-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: he said he was surprised that, like, his sister's annoying little brother became one of his best friends, right?
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: And I wonder if my brother-in-law would say, 'cause he's the older brother, if he would say, "I'm surprised that my sister's-" you know, boyfriend.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: That d- that dude who just showed up out of nowhere into my family-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Andy Littleton: has become one of my, one of my friends, all because we actually, he likes the Cardinals.
Cubs and Cardinals are rivals.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Andy Littleton: You know? Yep. Because we had a rivalry and we decided to make hot dogs together.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: That, I, I love what you've shared about friendship, of, you know, that we can't minimize these shoulder to shoulder moments. You know, and as a person, you know, I think you and I are similar.
We want depth. We want those meaningful [00:50:00] conversations. Yes. And, you know- Yeah ... we want, you know, having been a pastor in charge of small groups, I want the small groups to dig deep, right? Like, let's, oh, come on. Right. Let's go deep. And, you know, that passion is good, but then so often we try to force the depth without actually sharing in fun maybe.
Yes. I don't, you know, like that ma- you know, your, I, your comments have made me curious of like, okay, do, could small groups be a shared activity- Oh, yeah ... without the control of like, "Hey, we gotta dig deep into scripture." Yeah. You know, what would happen if people shared in a common life experience, whether it's watching sports or, you know, a book club or a board game, you know?
Like, and what conversations may ensue if we just say, "Hey, we're just gonna get together and do this."
Andy Littleton: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know? And, and hold it- Yes ... with wide open arms in hand.
Andy Littleton: That's right.
Church Repair And Food Wrap
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Andy Littleton: I mean, you're, what you're, [00:51:00] you're treading on a little bit too, and, and I probably should have mentioned this sooner, but the whole...
There, there's a friendship dilemma in our culture right now, right? Yeah. So you've got people like Rob- Robert Putnam, um, writing about this and, you know, bowling alone, the, you know, the idea that we aren't, people aren't getting together, they aren't doing clubs and organizations anymore- Yeah ... and stuff like that.
And so part of what I'm as, in exploring friendship here, I, I see myself as joining in with that story, but getting friendship specific and, and suggesting that on a micro level, you know, we can create these little communities. But in the church world, there's a book, and I was just looking up on my shelf 'cause I thought maybe I had it sitting right in front of me, and I don't 'cause I can't remember the author, so you're gonna have to find it.
But there's a book called "The Search to Belong."
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: And it was written to church leaders about, uh, it's kind of a mild critique of the small group movement in a way. Mm-hmm. But what the author gets at [00:52:00] is he kinda says, "People experience belonging at different levels, and sometimes they will move through those levels and sometimes they'll only go so far."
So he tells a, tells a story about a woman who I believe she never came to the church, but she would make donations to the church. And at her death, she talked about it being such a, her church home, such a critical part of her life. And he thought, "How? She never even came."
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: Well, it was the church on her street.
And she walked by it, she was familiar with it, she'd met people from it. She felt a sense of belonging. And, and he went from there, and he-- so he uses a house as a metaphor, and he says, like, there are all these different levels of connection. There's like the front porch where that's the interaction that maybe that lady had where it was she sees people, she's acquainted with them.
They-- There's a comfort she feels from that. Um, maybe on a front porch you might have kind of a shoot the breeze [00:53:00] conversation with somebody, right? There's kind of the living room conversations, the, the... I think, I think he went living room, dining room, kitchen. I might be forgetting one. But, um, the, the kitchen for him was the one where when somebody-- when you're allowed to like sit in their kitchen while they're cooking and talk- Yeah
that's when you've gotten further in the relationship, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: You're not just being hosted, you're, you're in the inner circle, you're close. That's the intimate conversation. Living room might be the, you sit around and it's kind of formalized. That's more like in a church, more like a small group.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And, uh, but then he, he was basically saying that in church culture, m- somewhere along the line we decided small groups are needed. We need to not just be in the big group. Small groups are needed. So we-- everybody's gonna get into the church and get into a small group. And he was saying we've minimized some of these other, the really in-depth layer that probably lies beyond small group.
We've minimized the, the place where people can just get [00:54:00] acquainted and feel an affinity for us, and in so doing, some people haven't gotten all the way to a small group, and some people who never will get to a small group- Right ... they'll never do it-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: don't, don't get to experience belonging- Yeah
because we don't offer it at that, what we might call a surface level. It's not a surface level if they experience belonging there. Mm-hmm. So there probably is a... I thought that book was really helpful. We've been trying to apply it here at our church, at Mission, in Tucson, um, to say, "How can we create real belonging at these entry level points that don't require that you, you know, show up with your study skills or your really great questions, where you can just shoot the breeze?"
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And we've been trying to invest in those, and then invest in the ones that's like, "Oh, we're gonna go real deep over here." Mm-hmm. And that's probably only for a select group.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: You know? And not every small group needs to be that.
Andrew Camp: Mm-mm.
Andy Littleton: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, I, I think, again, 'cause [00:55:00] everything relates to Andy Root, you know- Yeah.
you know, like, the, the gift of friendship is more than, you know, like we want to programize everything. Um, you know, and our culture I think it, you know, plays into this, right? Like it's not just- Yes ... the church that I think our whole cul- But like, hey, if we have the right programs, if we do X, Y, Z- Yeah ... if we can, you know, get people in the room, if we can get them buying in and connecting and fill out a, like- It, and, and those, I'm not gonna say that those aren't needed.
There's a place for them, right? Like -
Andy Littleton: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: but how to make space where, like, things can just, a natural affinity can happen, where the gift of friendship can happen in a moment of sorrow or loss, you know? And I think that's- Yeah ... Andy's point, is that, hey, you know, Christ doesn't meet us in our glory, but in our weakness, and then, you know-
Andy Littleton: Yeah
Andrew Camp: it looks like a cross, you know? Like- Yeah ... and so as people lose hope or are despairing or go through grief- Yeah ... [00:56:00] where can the body of Christ show up? And you can't- Yeah ... program that.
Andy Littleton: No.
Andrew Camp: But you can- Not at all ... how to help people think through what does it mean to meet people in sorrow, or to be a gift of presence in that moment.
Um, m- yeah. It's, it's things the church needs to wrestle with, but it's not flashy. Yeah. Um, and so how... Yeah, it, it's a different mode of being, but the gift- Yeah ... of friendship then can help us in so many ways that we're not aware of.
Andy Littleton: Oh, yeah. And then, and then tie back in, I guess, the Putnam stuff and the, you know, disintegrating of culture stuff too.
The, sometimes these simple, powerful things... Like I've, I've been part of a discussion where there's been some brainstorming on how to bring together the people from different expressions of Christianity that have severed to where they don't even talk anymore.
Andrew Camp: [00:57:00] Yeah.
Andy Littleton: And one of the things we've been discussing is the, probably the best shot we have, another...
You know, conferences and stuff are fine. They usually bring together like-minded people. Um, you're really probably not gonna throw a conference and get your, you know, your MAGA and your, you know, progressives in the room to just, like, hang out. It's not gonna happen. Yeah. But, um, but the things that could work, and again to the theme of your podcast, would be things like when, when we go to baseball games or we go to restaurants, here we are with people, very diverse people in the room, right?
Yeah. Out of a love for food, out of a love for a game. Um- What we could do is we could set tables, um, game tables, food tables. Um, we could, we could create activities through which we actually get to know each other. We get to know what's going on with each other's kids. Mm-hmm. We get to know how the person responds to something like [00:58:00] competition or, or, you know, the euphoria of tasting something delicious.
And in those connections, you're gonna find far more potential for repair than- Mm ... getting people on the same page.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Littleton: You know? And by that I mean, I mean, of course we wanna be on the same page, but if our-- That's another one of those kinda con- uncontrollability of the world things. We want to get people to agree on stuff.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: It's not gonna happen.
Andrew Camp: No.
Andy Littleton: What, what needs to happen and what could happen is we could get people to give a rip about each other again.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Andy Littleton: And to know what's going on in each other's lives. And then when they disagree on stuff, they have to grapple with all that relational capital they don't wanna lose.
Mm-hmm. That's what's gonna move us in a different direction, right? So it's, uh, th- that's another, it's a takeaway from the game, it's a takeaway from, um, so many other, you know, experiences I've had. And I think what, what people are [00:59:00] starting to discover in our culture, we need to get around tables-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: um, in order to start to rebuild our culture.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. Y- yeah, 'cause when you share an experience, when I realize, you know, as an example like, "Oh, you really like this single malt scotch, but you hold- Yes ... this view. Well, you still like single malt scotch, so you can't be a bad person," right? You know? Like- ... so how can we work together maybe over a bottle, you know, where-
Andy Littleton: Yeah
Andrew Camp: you know, we can, you know, wrestle it out and, you know, not duke it out, but just say, "Okay," like, "How, how can we still hold this tension?" Um- Yeah ... and not minimize just that small shared rub, you know, like you said, shoulder to shoulder activity, um- Yeah So, so much here I think it's critical Yeah. Um, you know, we could probably go on more and more Oh, yeah But for the sake of time, you know, and the day ahead and, you know, not [01:00:00] boring our listeners too much, right?
You know, like you know. Um, I'm curious, you know, and it's a question I begin, you know, I use to wrap up a lot of my podcasts. Uh, what's the story you want the church to tell?
Andy Littleton: Hmm. Well, I think, I mean, just, just staying on theme for, for my journey, um, I, I am so excited. One, one of the, the things I'm most excited about, about working on this manuscript and telling this story is that a good thing has actually come out of it, and the best thing that's come out of it is both Pike and Sean and I are spending more time together.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: You know? If, if nobody ever reads this book, I don't care-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: because that happened, and that was the point. And I think that I want the story to, you know, the story that the church tells, um, to be one where we take the risk, [01:01:00] um, and that's a big word in this whole uncontrollability thing, right? Risk.
You take the risk- Hmm that that's required, that, you know, the, it's the only way you can tell stories of repair-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: is by taking a risk and putting yourself out there and surrendering, I would say, to God, the results. Mm-hmm. And then I think we will be able to tell not only stories of pain, 'cause there will be, it won't work all the time.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: There will be stories of pain, but we could tell our stories of pain and also open ourselves to stories of repair. And I, I really do hope that more and more of the church, uh, leans into instead of just following our culture and telling the story of why everybody else is wrong and, you know, why everything is falling [01:02:00] apart, that we would tell stories of the kingdom, you know, being built in our midst through these simple, small, quiet, meaningful repair stories that are happening all around us.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Andy Littleton: Tell that story more. 'Cause that's, 'cause, 'cause we're a community of repair. You know, we're a community- Yeah ... where, where God entered in in Christ on a repair mission, risked everything. I mean, sovereignty- Yeah ... questions around that. But, but laid- Mm ... laid it down, moved into chaos to move toward us. So, so I hope we, I hope we tell stories of, of us following Jesus.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, I love it. Thank you. Um, and some fun food questions to wrap up, you know, to do a- Yes ... complete 180 after you just shared your heart of- Love it ... this chur- you know. What's one food you refuse to eat?
Andy Littleton: Well, [01:03:00] I get itchy when I eat shrimp. Okay. So that's the easy one, but that's not because I don't like it.
Yeah. Let's see. I think you're trying to get at something I don't like. What's a food I don't like? Um, I eat a lot. I eat a lot of things. Um, I refuse to eat...
Andrew Camp: Or what's one food
Andy Littleton: you would- I'm imagining menus. Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: or, or a food you wouldn't go out of your way to buy. Like you- A
Andy Littleton: food I would not go out of my way to buy.
Okay
Andrew Camp: Or food we wouldn't find in your refrigerator or pantry.
Andy Littleton: Uh-huh. Okay. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do... Yeah, this is, this is, uh, this will be my hot take. I'm, I'm bored with chicken, man. I'm just-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: I'm, I eat it, but when chicken's on the menu I'm like, "So what else is there?" Like, I-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: and it, it's, it's probably really good for me maybe.
I, I'm just bored with it. It's just- Yeah ... [01:04:00] chicken.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Littleton: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. No. Love it. What's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Andy Littleton: One of the best things I've ever eaten Well, it could be the Flagstaff dog. I don't know. I mean, I, uh, I ca- I came over to your house and, uh-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: assembled a, a hot dog of buffalo, uh, meat and cojita cheese and smashed blue corn chips and, uh- Mm-hmm
corn salsa. It's definitely not the best thing I've ever eaten, but, uh, but I just wanted to bring it up.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no.
Andy Littleton: Yes. Let me... The... What's the best, the best thing I've ever eaten? Hmm. You know, I'm, for the sake of my theme, Andrew- Yeah ... and this will not totally encapsulate it, but I kid you not, that Chicago dog in 2004 at Wrigley Field was an absolute revelation.
Um-
Andrew Camp: For sure ...
Andy Littleton: I, I have never, uh, gone back to believing that the plain hot dog with [01:05:00] ketchup and mustard is a, is a, is an okay thing after experiencing the real Chicago dog. And I'll, and I'm gonna give a little Tucson plug. That is, there's nothing better actually than going to Luke's here in town and getting your Chicago dog with the french fries piled on top of it inside the wrapping, having it all wrapped together, and the juices and the pickle, and getting- Yeah
into the fries.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Littleton: That-
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: Yeah ... that is a beautiful thing. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Fair. No, a Chicago dog is beautiful, but also when you're camping, a, or, you know, a roasted dog over a flame, then with just ketchup and mustard, like-
Andy Littleton: I can
Andrew Camp: see
Andy Littleton: that ...
Andrew Camp: y- that, that- I can see that ... you know, there i- Context. Yeah, the context is everything, right?
Like- ... you know, a summer hot dog, you know, quick, easy, shared with friends- Yeah ... with just the, yes, you know, ba- you know, we can say bastardized with ketchup, mustard, and relish. Yeah. Like, there's a place. [01:06:00]
Andy Littleton: Yeah. Well, in Chicago, as my shirt exhibits here, I've gotta-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: just bring it up a little bit. Okay. Um, there's no bastardizing going on with mustard, but ketchup in Chicago-
Andrew Camp: Yes
Andy Littleton: is a problem.
Andrew Camp: No. No, right. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. And, and finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be?
Andy Littleton: Mm-hmm. My last meal be-
Um, well, I would ask them to resurrect the Grandy's, uh, fast food chain of my childhood and give me the fried chicken sandwich that Grandy's used to make.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Littleton: And I don't care what it really tasted like. I need it to taste the way I remember it. Um- For sure ... so that, for some reason, uh, that fried chicken sandwich was, like, the best thing in the world, and I, I could still get down with a really great fried chicken sandwich.
So if they can't resurrect the [01:07:00] Grandy's, then drive down to Thai Market and get me the, uh, the fried chicken sandwich from Thai Market. I, I don't need healthy, I don't need steak here. This is my last meal. Yes. Give me a fried chicken sandwich. Mm-hmm. And, uh- And, yeah, absolutely.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, Andy, I've really appreciated this.
Um, if people wanna find out more about your work and your thoughts, and, um, where, where can they find you?
Andy Littleton: Well, I have, uh, yeah, there's a personal website, andylittleton.com. Uh, that's just got links to stuff. It's like a one-page situation. Yeah. Um, the kinda Chicago trip memoir journey is called "2,000 Miles to Wrigley."
Uh, there's a Patreon for that. Uh, you can go along and follow and support. I've been a little quiet while I've been doing manuscript work, but that will resurrect. Uh, so you can go to patreon.com\andylittleton. You can look up "2,000 Miles to Wrigley" on Facebook and Instagram. I'm most active on Instagram. Um, I have...[01:08:00]
From there, you can link over to, there's a personal and ministry Instagram too, @andygramz with a Z or @alittlemission, uh, for ministry stuff. And, uh, yeah, just, uh, if you, if you have time to follow 25 links, you know, you can find all the various, uh-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Littleton: spots I've dropped stuff on the internet. For
Andrew Camp: sure. No.
Yes. Um, thank you, Andy. It's been a joy and a privilege, uh, to have this conversation and just talk about friendship. Uh, and so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of "The Biggest Table," where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.
Until next time, bye.