Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Jerrad Lopes (00:01.712)
David, I'm I'm so excited, man, to have you back here on the podcast. Last time we had you guys on, it was just so helpful. I'm just gonna be honest right up front with our audience. This is a completely selfish interview. I feel like I'm just if there were no audience, if we never hit record, I just feel like I'm getting in a free session, like a parenting session as as a dad who's trying to figure this out. But thank you, brother, for coming back on. And for the audience who may not be familiar with you and the work you're doing, tell us who you are and what you're up to these days.
David (00:20.462)
Kind.
David (00:30.296)
I'd be glad to, but first wanna say I'm so happy to be back with you. Thank you for those kind words. Really, really honored to get to share this conversation. And I am first and foremost a proud son and brother and husband and father. And in addition to those roles, I'm also the executive director of a place in Nashville, Tennessee called Daystar Counseling Ministries, where I've had the great joy of
Jerrad Lopes (00:34.297)
I think so. Yeah.
David (00:57.738)
spending the last three decades of my work there. And and we are unique in that our whole focus as a practice is on serving and supporting the pediatric population. So we work with kids, adolescents and families and out of that work have had the great privilege of writing some books and getting to talk about those books and hosting a podcast with my dear friend and colleague Sissy Goff and and we recently released
New book called Capable, which is all about building resilience into the kits we love and super excited. You and I can talk some about that today.
Jerrad Lopes (01:34.32)
Yeah, I'm I'm again selfishly looking forward to just picking your brain on that as a dad of four. all still living with me and I'm trying to figure out as a dad how to how to raise capable children. just so I have a couple questions before we jump in on on the book. first, you are you guys able to see kids outside of the state or you only see locally? I know that will be I know I know our audience will be curious about that as we jump in.
David (01:55.734)
It's a great question.
Yeah, unfortunately we can only serve families in the Middle Tennessee area where we're located. Now, one of the things we do love doing that we have some freedom and flexibility is we do what we call parent consultations with parents and those can happen by phone or by Zoom with parents across the country. So the consultations we're allowed to do and it doesn't
get confusing with our license juris it won't cross state lines. But the actual work of counseling with kids and adolescents we can only do in in state. And honestly, I think the the good of that, amidst the heart of not being able to serve folks in other places, the good of that is I would argue, and I don't mean this disrespectful to any person who does the work differently, but for us, we really do believe we can only do the very best work we do when we get to be
in the room with a kid or a teenager. And there's something really different that happens that can only be translated in our experience through that actual experience of being in the room with them. We do a lot of experiential work with kids and adolescents and again just it's it's harder to duplicate through a screen. So I it's not that I don't think the work can't happen well in that way. We just know for us
We do the work really differently in that we're in a house rather than an office building. We have six therapy dogs on staff and so a lot of layers to how we do the work that really does translate best to that in-person experience. We we limped our way through the global pandemic when that was the only option, you know, to support kids, but we were beyond excited to be back in the room as as soon as it was safe to do that.
Jerrad Lopes (03:43.354)
Yeah, we I've been asked to like do some of our one day conferences and stuff virtually. And so I I agree with you. I know that feelings like it just won't translate, like what we're doing just won't translate on a screen. And so I get that. And then in other ways, as a guy who has benefited a lot from counseling, there's been some frustrations it in the counseling license world that just feels like it's so archaic. I'm like, dude, if I can see a doctor somewhere else or something, like I just I want to be able to pick a counselor.
in any state I want. But it feels like that would be, especially in 2026, they gotta figure out something with that, you know. especially the therapy modalities that are less experiential and just more kind of talk therapy. It's just like, dude, let's just jump on a Zoom call and help me figure this out. But I did want to ask you too so last coming up on two years ago I did an intensive counseling program. it was
David (04:17.558)
I know.
David (04:26.124)
Yes.
Jerrad Lopes (04:39.653)
14 days long. I was speaking of experiential as extremely experiential. It was all very hands-on and hardest, most beautiful thing I've ever done. I know the audience is getting tired of me talking about it every episode, but it was life-changing for me personally and just digging through old wounds from my childhood. one of the things I've been telling guys, and I don't know if this is right. So I'm I'm asking you to like tell me if I'm if I'm wrong here, but I've been telling guys, like, if you're decide to go the counseling route and to see a therapist.
It's okay to just say like we don't have a good fit and to look for other counselors. I think a lot of people give up too soon because the therapist and them didn't not connect right away. And I'm like, sometimes it's hard to find someone that you really connect with. And and it feels like from my experience, which is limited, like such a huge part of it is trust. Like I I really gotta trust you. And and if you just don't feel like you're clicking right away, it's okay to move on. Is that right? Am I giving bad information?
David (05:33.415)
absolutely. No, you're giving great information. And you know what I love about the way you asked that question is when you talked about if it's not a great fit, keep trying. I think the challenge that I would want to give to any dad listening, and dads, I mean this with the greatest of respect, but you know, there is overwhelming data to confirm that the females in our lives do a much better job of caring for themselves physically.
emotionally, spiritually, it'd be fascinating for folks listening to even look up the data of the number of women who go for their well visits with their doctor every year versus men who don't. And and it's but one of many examples of where I don't think we don't care well for our bodies and our hearts. And all the ways I see that in my work spill over to the impact the residual of that on kids. And so I've learned to your question, I've heard a lot of dads say, you know, well I tried and it just wasn't a great fit. But the statement is
they're not saying is I tried and then I stopped as opposed to I tried and then I tried again and and I kept trying until I found my way to a good fit. So I think some men I have experienced in my work use that as an excuse to bow out of what I think is a hard experience, which is where I have overwhelming respect for the deep work that you just described doing. Because we have long said and I will always believe that one of the greatest gifts we have to offer the kids we love is doing our own work.
And it changes the game. Having sat with parents who haven't and sat having sat with parents who have, like, it changes the game. So you keep talking about your experience. I wish more dads did because again, I think more women are apt to talk about their experience, not only to avail themselves to the process, but to talk about their experience. So I couldn't be happier when men are talking about how transformational it is to do the good important work.
Jerrad Lopes (07:28.761)
Yeah, well, another way that you just phrased that one thing that we we say here at Dad Tired is strong families begin with healed men. And that just is coming from like me working through my own pain and wounds and how I've been able to show up more a more healthy version for my kids and my wife. And and I didn't even have to like take a bunch of parenting classes. It just was like, dude, if I work on my own, like pain.
David (07:36.632)
Yes.
Jerrad Lopes (07:55.839)
there just seems to be r some really intuitive stuff that comes in my parenting and in my in my marriage for the better. So
David (08:00.726)
Absolutely. Well, and the opposite of that, of that being something I talk a lot about, which is in my experience, I think males who are in pain cause pain. That's not just true for boys and adolescent males who tend to move outward with their hurt, but it's true for us as adult men. And so I think the opposite of of what you're saying, not only is there the opportunity for so much redemption and healing and transformation within a family.
when men deal with their pain, but when they don't, the capacity for harm is is incredibly great. And I have seen more evidence of that in three decades of doing this work than I ever wanted to see. And so again, it's where I love that you are talking about your experience. I hope you don't stop.
Jerrad Lopes (08:46.395)
Okay. All right. Well, I'll just blame you then every time I bring it up. You said you said that boys or men tend to go outward with their pain. Is that in comparison to women typically don't? Or what was that a was there a comparison there?
David (08:49.464)
Please do.
David (08:59.98)
Yes. You know, it's it's fascinating just the overall category of what I call outward movement, which could either be healthy, outward movement or unhealthy. And a great example would be there's research that reveals that in the face of failure, women tend to blame themselves and men tend to blame others. So you see the outward movement there already. It's like I'm gonna women are more apt to turn inward on themselves and men
go outward. And we know, you know, if we look at the way that so many struggles translate within the pediatric population, anxiety's a perfect example. So many girls who struggle with anxiety in a classroom setting tend to become more perfectionistic, pleasing, and performing. That's not to say all girls, but many girls. Whereas many boys, the primary presentation for anxiety looks more like ADHD. They're restless, fidgety.
noncompliant, rigid, acting outward more, which is why we often misidentify anxiety in boys as being ADHD because the symptomology looks so close, almost identical at times. But it's one more example of that outward movement. It tends to so often come outward where girls are turning it inward and they're trying harder and they're pleasing more and they're performing more. And so it's where we see a heightened amount of perfectionism in anxious girls and acting out
with a lot of anxious boys. So it's it's yeah, I think important to note that or else I think we can miss something or misinterpret something as being something that it's not.
Jerrad Lopes (10:29.955)
huh.
Jerrad Lopes (10:37.262)
Yeah.
That's really fascinating because I don't know as a parent, and obviously the majority of my peers are parents. and I don't know if I've heard any parents say about their boys in particular that they're feeling anxious. They don't they don't use the word anxiety to describe their maybe what we would call obnoxious behavior. maybe it's just their boys being boys, they're rowdy, they can't sit still, they're disobedient, whatever the thing is. But I've never heard
Any parent say, Well, he's actually feeling really anxious.
David (11:12.078)
There it is. Well, and what's interesting is, you know, the data has long told us that girls are twice as likely to struggle with anxiety as boys. And the same is true with adult males and females. And so because it's less likely, I think we're often looking less often, and then the symptomology doesn't present as we classically understand it, which is another place to miss it. And a third thing I would say to that is this I am convinced
that the data's actually much higher for boys, adolescent males, and adult males than we understand it to be for both anxiety and depression because we miss the presentation. Like here's a here's a great example. Think about the category of depression. You know, when when any of us thinks about that word, we tend to first understandably think about someone who's incredibly sad, lethargic, maybe struggles to get out of bed, can't get to work, and it certainly could present in those ways.
For a lot of men, but I would argue this world is full of a lot of adult men who are not only getting out of bed every day and getting to work, but they're knocking it out of the park vocationally. Like they're succeeding a lot in that space. But they are men because depression often presents first with adult men as anger, who, if cut off in traffic on the way home, would lose their minds, like have a disproportionate response.
To an insignificant event. And we would, to your wise observation a moment ago, never think to say, that guy seems depressed. We would say, that guy seems angry. That guy seems volatile. That guy seems close to the edge. But we wouldn't think to attach the word depressed. But again, it's that outward movement of this intense sadness and hopelessness and despair I could be experiencing inside that shows up outward as a lot of screaming and raging and volatility and.
short tempered. I had a mom years ago in talking about her 15-year-old son who was depressed said, David, it's like he wakes up every day with a low grade irritability, and I have no idea what will set him off. But again, more anger than the presentation of sadness. So it's where conversations like the one that you and I are having feel so important because if we
David (13:33.187)
Combine that with what you and I just talked about. It doesn't look as we'd understand it and I'm not open to getting the help that I need. Is it any wonder why adult men lead some of the scariest statistics that are out there? We lead the stats for infidelity, internet pornography, substance abuse, suicide, and the common denominator of all four of those being a male's attempt to wanna shut down or numb out whatever it is he's feeling, rather than naming and navigating, getting the help I need, being open to doing
Jerrad Lopes (13:47.514)
Mm-hmm.
David (14:02.594)
the good work. I keep coming back to Jared, keep talking about what you're talking about because enough men cannot hear that.
Jerrad Lopes (14:10.168)
Yeah, that is so fascinating what you just described there. And I think every guy can relate to that the story of getting cut off on the road. And and I think we've all felt that. I felt that if I'm being honest, where I have had disproportionate anger towards something that just did not require that much anger. Why did I get 10 out of 10 angry at that? At my kids, at my wife, at my at the guy cutting me off. And you know, like you know something in there, it almost kind of scares you. I remember feeling that years ago where it's like,
Where did that come from? Why what is that in me? And and yeah, the fact that you would say like I I wonder if I'm actually feeling sad. And do you think that that's where the that's where it needs to start with a guy saying, like, mi am I feeling sad about something? Am I actually feeling sad? And and why am I feeling sad? Is that a good place to start? Like you said, naming it?
David (15:00.174)
Absolutely. You know, there's incredible truth to those age old words of we can't tame what we can't name. So for any man out there thinking, you know, I need to deal with my anger, I need to deal with my fear, I need to deal with my sadness, like I can't do any dealing with those things until I can name it accurately. And I can look under the hood and identify what's really there underneath that road rage. Like what's driving that, what's fueling that.
You know, we talk about how anger is a secondary emotion. So there's always something else underneath it. And doing some with kids, we call it good wise detective work, you know, just figuring out what's underneath so that I can tame only what I can name. And, you know, last thought I would have is as you and I have this part of the conversation that I think is equally important to fold in is not only do I think
Depression in males shows up more as anger, but I think anxiety in males also shows up as high control. I think some of the most anxious men out there in the world who again would not ever say, I'm anxious, because the first thing we think of when we think of the word anxiety is fear and worry. Like, I'm not I'm not really fearful. I'm not laying awake at night thinking about this or I'm not afraid to fill in the blank. And so we don't think about anxiety being a category that could be part of our experience because we're only thinking about it in those ways. But
Watch for, and and this is certainly true for females as well, but individuals in your life who are highly controlling, who again a lot of rigidity and inflexibility. And if we tie that to the anger and rage, you know, in in a home setting, I think it's kids who I had a dad tell me a story one time who was so honest in his struggle, and he said, You know, David, I began to really see it when it would
present in the most unexpected moments for me. He said, I remember driving home from a really stressful day at work and I'd gotten stuck in traffic and I raced in the door late for dinner and sat down at the table. And my animated little six-year-old son was telling a story about his day and he was using his hands and he accidentally knocked over a glass of milk and I lost my mind. Like lost my mind yelling, grabbing towels to wipe it up, you know, as if
David (17:18.57)
Anything catastrophic is gonna happen if little mill sp spills off on the hardwood floor, you just wipe it up with water. But it was that need to control the meal, control the messes, control all kinds of things that I think is often where we can miss anxiety in males, but individuals who are really rigid around a lot of things and needing that control.
Jerrad Lopes (17:21.88)
Right.
Jerrad Lopes (17:42.062)
You know what's so interesting about that is I had a I've had in full transparency a tough parenting week, as I'm trying to raise these four children. And I've spent many minutes this week on my face begging the Holy Spirit to come and help me do what I cannot do. I need the helper, 'cause I just feel like I'm I'm out of I'm out of my my element here. I don't really know how to do that. I don't know how to raise these humans. It's it's really hard. I think every parent can feel that at some level. anyway, I
In the last couple of years, I've pulled out, I've tried to pull out every unhealthy coping mechanism in my life. I've tried to become really aware of like ways that I places I go to cope with anxiety, depression, pain, whatever it may be. And so I have very limited, like unhealthy tools to go to, if any now, because I've named them all. And not only have I named them all, I've given them to my wife so she can see if I accidentally move into these areas. So which so there's a level of accountability there.
David (18:36.75)
Hm. Good for you.
Jerrad Lopes (18:41.453)
So anyway, I say that because I've I've had this difficult week and I could feel this week like wanting to numb in some way, like wanting to medicate this pain in my chest, this tightness in my chest. And so all I did yesterday was just like hyper clean the house. And I noticed myself like I am just attempting to search for control in what where it feels really out of control. I don't know if that's a
You know, an unhealthy coping mechanism. I recognized in the moment like this is probably what's happening. I'm desperately trying to gain control 'cause my life feels out of control right now. But it's I just that popped into my brain as you said, somebody who has this r rigidity or this like lack of flexibility. I think I experienced some of that even as as recent of yesterday. just trying to get s a little bit of control of my chaotic world.
David (19:31.887)
And here's what I would say to that. I would first say you are putting words around not just the human experience, but I would argue the human parenting experience. You know, I think part of God's invitation for every one of us as as parents and certainly for us as fathers is to bump up against the reality that we are not in control.
And he is. And, you know, what you also spoke beautifully too was the desire for health. I felt in so many layers of what you said. Everything from naming mine, healthy coping, to inviting my wife into this struggle, the accountability, like all the parts and pieces. I I share in every bit of that with you. And I am a huge fan of the recovery movement because having done this work for thirty years, I've overwhelming respect for
Where I have seen the fruit of that commitment play out in the context of family. I would go on record as arguing that I think some of the healthiest parents I've had the great pleasure of intersecting with are parents in recovery because they wake up every day and they're naming and taming. Every day. It's part of their everyday lived experience. And I love, I pray it myself every day. I pray the Serenity.
Serenity prayer every day. Both verses. I would encourage parents listening, get online and look at the second verse. We all kind of know the first verse. It's common, but the second, I would argue, is every bit as magical. And every part of that speaking to the wisdom of what you just described, the acknowledgement that I need God, I need community, I'm helpless to do this on mine. And there is something I think so healthy about living in that.
posture, which is what I felt as as you talked about it. Because what you and I know, having lived this journey for as long as we have as dads, it's like we're gonna have weeks, days, hours, sometimes it's only minutes, where we feel like I'm I I think I kind of steadied the ship today. You know, that that felt like a a dad win and plenty of moments where it feels like a dad fail. And I think I I have no idea. I had a a dad say to me last week
David (21:53.805)
He said, David, I can't tell you how often I th I ask myself the question, am I failing at this experiment?
Jerrad Lopes (22:00.312)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You said steady the ship and I'm like, I feel like my ship is sinking most of the time. I'm just like we're just constantly trying to patch holes so we just don't go under. Yeah. Yeah.
David (22:05.302)
Yeah, there are weeks when we do. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the beauty of the serenity prayer being, you know, the big picture reminder of I was not designed to captain this ship, you know? And absolutely. And and I love the repetitive process of repeating that prayer that I know.
Jerrad Lopes (22:21.932)
Yeah, yeah. That's really good.
David (22:31.648)
And know and know and forget and forget and forget. Like every day returning to the wisdom of those words. You know, God grant me the wisdom. You know, help me figure out what I can control, what I can't control, what I shouldn't even be trying to control. and remind me of, as you just did beautifully, like what it looks like to cry out to you consistently, to surround myself with people.
Jerrad Lopes (22:55.928)
Yeah. Yeah, maybe the more dangerous place for me is when I think that I'm I don't need Christ. Maybe the more dangerous place is when the days I'm not on my face and I and I think that I actually have what it takes to do this impossible work of raising souls, you know, it's on my own, I should say. So what do you know that do you know the second verse off the top of your head or you have it somewhere where you could tell it to us?
David (23:04.526)
Great.
David (23:21.208)
All right. Let's see if I could do it from memory. And if I can't, we'll look it up. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change I the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace, taking as you did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that you will make all things right.
Jerrad Lopes (23:25.643)
Okay.
David (23:50.87)
So that I can be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever and ever in the next.
Jerrad Lopes (23:57.081)
Wow. Geez, that is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I say the serenity prayer all the time. I did not know the second verse.
David (23:59.855)
Isn't that beautiful?
David (24:04.126)
No, most people don't. And and I would argue I think some of the best stuff is in that second verse. So
Jerrad Lopes (24:09.62)
I think so too. That one's even better. What was the what was the line about the hardship, the path to the hardships?
David (24:14.19)
Accepting hard shit. Let's see. Now if I go back into it, I might mess it up. I have to start back at the beginning. see I've already forgotten. Jared.
Jerrad Lopes (24:16.928)
I know I keep putting you on the spot. Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (24:24.052)
No, it was like something the no here, I'll look at, but it was like the accepting hardships as the path to pathway to peace. Yes. Man, that is so beautiful. I love that.
David (24:28.76)
Pathway to peace. That's the pathway to peace. Isn't that beautiful?
Well, and I would honestly say the wisdom of those words was everything we were attempting. We didn't say it nearly as as profound as that, but everything we were hoping to be able to say to parents in the Capable Book. You know, I wish there were a vitamin or a gummy that we could give our kids at night and they would wake up with resilience. I really do. I would have
Jerrad Lopes (25:01.42)
Yeah.
David (25:03.444)
Marketed that to death if that were possible. But the reality being, you know, if we go back and reread Romans five, Romans eight, John sixteen, like we've been promised all throughout scripture, we are gonna groan with all of creation this side of heaven. But struggle gives way to perseverance, perseverance, character, and character to hope. And I wish there were a gummy that got us straight from struggle to hope, but we have to stop off at perseverance and character. And that's where I think the fruit of
Jerrad Lopes (25:21.878)
Yeah.
David (25:32.248)
Capability and resilience really is is birth. And so it's it's where I think all the gold is in that statement of accepting hardships as the pathway to peace. It's what's gonna give me peace and hope. Navigating those things, finding God, crying out to God in the midst of it.
Jerrad Lopes (25:46.05)
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (25:50.092)
Yeah. Let's talk about the book a little bit. when I told my one of my children recently, that I was my primary goal was not their happiness, but it was their health. Like overall. And and yeah, they just could not believe it. They just could I mean it just d they had no category for that. Like, how could you be my dad, say you love me and not care about my happiness?
David (26:03.49)
How did that go over?
Jerrad Lopes (26:15.595)
So I know you talk about that a little bit in the book, that whole concept. Like we are trying to raise the capable children here who are resilient. before we even like dive too much into the book, can you just define like what do you mean by capable? 'Cause you some guys might be thinking immediately like, All right, I've heard enough. I just need to be harder on my kids. but what did like when you were talking about capable, what do you tr what are you describing?
David (26:38.008)
I'd love to tell. We have a working definition in the book that I love and believe strongly in, having seen too much evidence over the last three decades of this work, and it's that capable kids have practiced coping and learned competence, not confidence, but competence for life's challenges. And you know what I was thinking, Jared, as you said that I think we have been messaged strongly in this world as parents that
we need to raise happy, confident kids. And I think those have become two of the targets that we're moving toward in a lot of moments. And that the culture is challenging us to continue moving toward in a lot of moments. And then we end up feeling like failures when we can't hit those targets, when our kids don't seem confident or they don't seem happy. And you know, we talk a lot in the book about how happiness is temporary and transient. You know, if I just pick a day from this past week
Let's say Tuesday. I remember being really happy at breakfast. I had a great breakfast. I love breakfast. And that night I remember sitting in the floor talking with my wife and I was petting our dog and we had this great conversation. So if I combine those two, I felt happy for about an hour and fifteen minutes. Now the rest of the day, I didn't feel unhappy, but I was doing the normal stuff of life. I was at work, I was running errands, I was returning emails, I was pumping gas. I was stopping off at the grocery store to pick stuff up.
And so that's the normal stuff of life. I would argue that's the ratio for a high majority of adults in this world. And so if that's true for us, the same will likely be true for our kids. And if we are putting all the emphasis on making sure you feel happy the majority of your life, like we are setting our amazing kids up for failure because that's not how it's likely to play out.
And I'm going on vacation next week with just my wife. And I bet the ratio's gonna be higher during that week would be my suspicion. Unless here's a great example. We're going to the beach and the weather looks kind of terrible. It might rain every day. So what do I do if that ends up being the case? So that can't in my mind be the target we're moving toward. I think one, we're gonna feel like it's a failed experiment, back to that dad's words, and two.
Jerrad Lopes (28:32.363)
Yeah.
David (28:57.73)
I just don't think we're setting kids up for the real world. And back to the confidence piece within that definition, I don't even think we really need to think about targeting confidence. One, because I don't think it's possible. There's not anything in particular we can say or do that makes kids wake up confident. Now there are things I think we can say and do that damage their confidence, but I think the better objective is how can I help them build.
confidence in a lot of different places in life because what you and I know having lived long enough is I feel confident when I have built confidence, which is simply doing hard things in the world. I feel a sense of satisfaction in that. So I think competence is way deeper than confidence. And I think health is much deeper than happiness. So I love you spoke those words. However it might have been received, I want you to keep messaging in that direction.
Jerrad Lopes (29:42.316)
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (29:47.766)
Yeah. Well I yeah, and I probably didn't say very well either. But what do you you know, you've been doing this for decades now. What are you seeing as you sit across from parents and from adolescents, from children? What are you seeing ways that they are not competent? That maybe like it as you're listening to their stories or situations, it might kind of flag or even kind of like, man, you don't have the competence.
To solve this and that's gonna be detrimental to you as you grow up. Does that question make sense?
David (30:23.068)
it absolutely does. And I don't love having to say to you that I have seen greater evidence of that in the last decade of my work than any other time.
Jerrad Lopes (30:32.919)
I believe it. Yeah. Well, and and just flag this kind of follow up question as you maybe answer or as we come back to it, like what's contributing to the rise of incompetence?
David (30:34.561)
And it's
David (30:42.486)
you read my mind. It's it's no surprise that within this last decade we have seen rising numbers in anxiety. Let's just extract that one. Let's go back to that. Like we have never seen before. In fact, anxiety is considered to be a childhood epidemic in our country. Our numbers are so high. One in five kids, one in three adolescents, one in three adults. And what's important to note as you ask the question about anxiety is that.
And I don't want to have to say this either, but parents hear me say it with a lot of grace. This is really important in my mind to lean into. Research would reveal time and time again that the two most common parenting mistakes we can make with anxious kids are escape and avoidance. We see kids struggling and we want to extract them. You know, they're crying about going to basketball practice and we say, you know what? Maybe we just need to bow out. Now, hear me say side note, there are certainly times when we do.
I'm not at all a f advocate of putting kids in harm's way, like with a coach who's abusive or shaming, or that's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about just the everyday hard of going to practice. I raised three kids who all fell in love with running. They were cross-country and track runners. And we live in the South. It is brutally hot and humid. And most of the training for cross country, because it's a fall sport, happens in the summer. So my kids ran hills in the summers.
In what was sometimes eighty, ninety degrees. It's just miserable. And they would all three say now, as adults, they would not have said it then, that it built a sturdiness, it built an endurance in them, it built a perseverance. They tapped into parts of themselves they didn't even know existed. And had I met there grumbling and complaining, and that's no disrespect to them, I was a runner myself, I've done the exact same thing with, you know what, let's just bow out. You're right. It's hot. Like
You wanna take up an indoor sport instead? Like had I met their responses with an out of some kind, I would argue I would have been doing them a great disservice. And if you're parenting a kid with anxiety, we then end up feeding and fueling the anxiety in doing that. Because the working definition we talk a lot about with kids is anxiety is just an overestimation of the situation and an underestimation of myself. The situation or the problem feels too big and I feel too small. So
David (33:11.382)
Running in the heat feels too difficult and I'm not capable. And as long as we keep extracting kids, as long as I keep defaulting to escape and avoidance, I don't just feed and fuel that definition and confirm, you know, what you really aren't. But I stand in the way of building the competence that you and I are talking about. And so what I want parents hear me to say in summary to that is I don't genuinely believe any of us do that intentionally. Because
It's important to note like none of us love to watch the kids we love struggle. It's miserable, as a matter of fact. So the first step in this whole equation we talk a lot about in the beginning of this book is learning to deal with my own discomfort. Jared, you nailed it when you talked about like I'm just assessing my coping. I want parents to be assessing their coping at all moments because if I can't onboard enough healthy coping from the beginning of this journey on, I can't deal with
my kids learning to self-soothe when I'm sleep training. I can't deal with the pooping in their diapers when we're potty training. I can't deal with the separating out crying when I drop off at Sunday school. And all the way through I can't deal with the grumbling and complaining when they're doing homework. I can't deal with the begging to get out of doing chores. Like all the different moments that are part of the training ground of where kids develop the beginning ingredients of capability. If I can't
attend to my own discomfort, then I certainly cannot allow the kids I love to experience discomfort themselves. So it is the beginning point and I would argue the most foundational ingredients in building that competence. Chores are a great example. Like we have overwhelming amounts of research to confirm that chores are good for all kids. Like it builds a sense of independence. It helps kids connect to a sense of belonging in a family. Like
that layer on layer on layer, like so much research. I don't even know why we bother researching anymore. Like we just collectively all know that's a good thing. And we all collectively know as parents that I've never met a child in 30 years of doing this work who enjoys chores. Like they don't love it. And I get it. So how do I move forward with the f the knowledge that that's beneficial to their developing sense of self? And I'm going to be met with a lot of
Jerrad Lopes (35:09.077)
Wow.
Jerrad Lopes (35:18.623)
Right.
David (35:31.33)
grumbling and complaining in the process. And how do I move forward for the sake of building the competence that you and I now know chores are as big a part of the journey of parenting for a grown up as anything. Like the endless laundry and the diapers and the food preparation and the driving from point A to point B, all the parts and pieces that that was the training ground really for so much of my journey in parenting. The fact that my parents had me do so many chores.
Jerrad Lopes (35:45.856)
Mm.
Jerrad Lopes (35:59.063)
It's interesting because we all, I think everyone would admit, like the hard stuff that we all went through is what made us stronger adults. And yet we struggle so much to put our kids or to like let them experience the hard stuff. It's really fascinating. Like we know it. We all know it. We asked at our last dad tired retreat, we asked I think w one of our co-hosts here, Chris Hilkin, he asked the the guys in the room, Would you rather have
David (36:14.424)
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (36:28.776)
your daughters marry a plumber who struggled his whole life to get through, you know, where he is and to build up, or would you have him marry a trust fund baby? You know, and like all of us like instinctually know like, no, I want the guy who's been through some hard stuff, who's really had to go through the hard stuff because it builds character. And yet here I am as a parent rescuing my kids from the hard stuff all the time. It's really fascinating.
David (36:53.87)
Absolute believing somehow maybe there is a shortcut from struggle to hope. Maybe maybe the scripture was wrong. Maybe the perseverance and character aren't as important. Like they're every bit as important. They were important for us, they're important for them.
Jerrad Lopes (36:59.442)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (37:06.708)
Yeah. So so you know, one thing that we a phrase that we use often in our house is problem solve, which I think it was just I didn't really intentionally do it, but I did it with my very oldest. and the idea ha we've always wanted to like you just gotta keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing until you can figure out that that there there's you have what it takes to to solve this problem in front of you. And now I hear my five year old tell their her older siblings.
Problem solve. Don't stop problem solving. You got to problem solve. But I I that wasn't like super smart on my end. I just like said something a lot and it kind of stuck. But what are some ways that like parents can build that capability, you know, muscle in their children? Like what are some practical things a dad can do to help them start to become more capable children?
David (37:57.199)
Great question. One of the things we hoped to accomplish in the writing of this book was to arm parents with as many of those practical ways as possible. Like I think the game of parenting is as complicated as it's ever been. So we don't want parents to have to do a deep dive into the practical ways unique to stages of development. So we put a hundred capability building exercises in the book and broke it down for littles, middles.
and olders. And then we put out a workbook if that's helpful for kids in the six to twelve space, though I think it is easily modified for younger kids when parents do it with them. And I think it's highly beneficial for kids who are a little bit older too. That are all the strength, skills and strategies we talk about in the book for parents, we define it for kids. So we have all these amazing strategies like reframing and
Managing emotions, all these different things where we break it down into language that's accessible for kids and adolescents. And then we have five practices at the end of every one of those chapters. They're short chapters, so we know kids well enough to know they don't want to lead. They don't want to read a long workbook. So they're short chapters. And some of them are super fun. Like we have a scavenger hunt, we have a family Olympics, we have this dominoes race, like, but all of those inviting elements of
To the very thing you just said, problem solving, critical thinking, frustration, practicing flexibility, that one alone. To your great question. If if a dad were to wanna take up anything tonight, I would say start with flexibility. Because the other thing back to the anxiety research that we know to be true is
Not only are those kids really perfectionistic, they are, to use a word I used earlier, often rigid. They're rigid with bedtimes, they're rigid with schedules, they're rigid in a lot of places. So, you know, tonight at dinner, here's a here's a easy experiment. I say easy, it won't necessarily go down easy for certain kids, but you know, right before you sit down at the dinner table, say, Okay, everybody freeze. I want everybody to move one seat to the left. We're gonna sit in a different spot tonight. And why
David (40:17.312)
Watch the faces of your kids who bend a little more toward rigidity and perfectionism. And those little things are hard. You know what? Tonight, let's flip-flop. Let's do stories first and shower second. You know, tomorrow we're gonna switch it up. And I'm gonna do drop off and mom's gonna do pickup. Like look for small ways to practice flexibility so that when kids bump up against the big things, which is the universal human experience, we all get a curveball.
I go on vacation and the weather's terrible. I have practiced flexibility in the small way so I'm not so taken down by the bigger, harder moments when I have to pivot, which is almost every day, sometimes every hour of every day. I mean at work today I could name four incidences of where I had to pivot.
Jerrad Lopes (41:04.083)
Yeah. I so I actually tend to lean that direction. Like I I lean the direction of like we're just things are gonna be different all the time and you just gotta kind of be quick and flexible. But then I've also struggled with as a parent, does it and I've heard this that kids thrive in routine. And so you how do you kind of balance those where you like your kids can expect they kind of they they can expect routine and they know what to expect every day versus
Life isn't gonna be the same every day. And so you gotta learn how to like i should a parent create chaos or should a parent create routine or is it some is the sweet spot somewhere in the middle? Okay. Yeah.
David (41:41.507)
Both Ann, you're exactly right. Like you're a hundred percent correct. Overwhelming research to confirm, particularly for those of you listening who have preschool or elementary age kids. Like, think about our educational environments for kids that young. Like there is a reason where else on the planet would a human being go where you hang your backpack in the exact same cubby, you sit in the exact same seat at circle time, we wash our hands at nine fifty five, we have a snack at ten fifteen, like all that ritual and routine, sameness and structure.
kids thrive in and in that space developmentally especially. As kids get older, they absolutely still benefit from sameness and structure, but it isn't heightened in the exact same way. But how could we offer all the good structure, all the good routine, all the great rituals that allow kids, I would argue, and adults to thrive while also practicing flexibility so that I'm prepared for those moments when I get a curveball. And you know, it's interesting
a part of when we look back at why the numbers peaked in the ways they did during the global pandemic around anxiety and depression, because the suspicion, rightly so, would have been, if anything, the numbers should have come down in some ways because everybody was home and we weren't racing out the door to all these praxis and kids didn't absorb the same academic pressure in the same ways and hadn't kids who had fear about going into the building didn't even have to go into the building. Like the assumption would have been in a lot of ways we were dialing down. But
What happened, what we all know is that there was less structure, less routine, less ritual. And think about, you know, I laugh with adults about, you know, think about how we all those of us who worked outside of home, at that point love discovering, my goodness, Zoom allows me to wear sweatpants on the bottom and a shirt on top. No one knows the difference. And I can just get sloppy. I don't need to make my bed. I could throw on a ball cap.
You know, there's interesting research around the benefits of making your bed every day, taking a shower every day. And the shower's not magical, making your bed's not magical, but the routines are. And so when we had fewer routines and rituals, we all struggled more. And the same is true for kids as well. So how can we offer that structure while also practicing flexibility? It's both in.
Jerrad Lopes (43:59.923)
And I think your your example you gave for the guys to do tonight is a great example because it's like maybe we'll do dinner time every day, like you know that that's gonna happen, but I'm gonna switch up your seats from time to time just to throw things off, you know. I th that could be a good both and example. I did we talk about, did we tie in why the anxiety numbers are going up or why the why kids are becoming less capable and less able to problem solve? Do you think
There it's a social media component. Like what has changed in the last 10 years specifically that is causing our kids to become less capable adults?
David (44:37.366)
I wish it were one ingredient. I wish it were gluten. I wish you could blame everything on gluten or dairy. You know, it's it's it's
Jerrad Lopes (44:41.833)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just as a side note, so I had a medical professional at a birthday party yesterday, less than twenty four hours ago, tell me I should stop eating gluten as I'm shoving my face with birthday cake. I'm like, this is the worst. Like I don't but anyway, like read the room. Read the room. But anyway, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.
David (45:01.71)
That's so great. That is so great. Well, I do. I wish it were one ingredient we could eliminate it easily. But the reality is, and and you alluded to this and how you asked the question, like it's it's a lot of things. And there is no question the animal of technology plays a significant role. But what I wanna say is this, I think we are
tricked into believing at times that that is the only ingredient. So if we were to just eliminate all of that or go back to life before that, we wouldn't see any of the evidence. But it's not the only ingredient. It is a significant ingredient, there's no question. And I would encourage every parent listening to read The Anxious Generation. That should be required reading for having an adolescent. And then I would encourage parents to grab a copy of The Amazing Generation, which Jonathan Haidt who wrote The Anxious Generation co-authored with Catherine Price.
who is a wonderful author. She wrote a a great book called How to Break Up With Your Phone. And a publisher invited Jonathan and Catherine to combine all the research they'd done in those two books for adults and write a book for kids explaining in language that was manageable. Let's look at all the ways it impacts our brains and bodies and then let's figure out some best practices. So that book is called The Amazing Generation. It's a great resource. I love that book. It's fan it's new and it's fantastic. I couldn't recommend it enough.
Jerrad Lopes (46:19.697)
geez. yeah, I'm like I don't think I knew about that one. I'm gonna I'm literally getting it right now. Okay.
David (46:27.552)
So the animal of technology, no doubt. And alongside that, I would say the rising category of what I call pace and pressure. So think on the age-old saying of kindergarten is the new first grade. It turns out that's a hundred percent true. Like if you were to, I encourage adults, ask your parents what their kindergarten experience was like. Most would say, I went,
five half days, then we went home and took a nap, or I went three full days. Like we didn't at one point in time we didn't do kindergarten the way we do it now. And what's important to note about that is we've accelerated everything. So we're basically doing first grade work in kindergarten. And if we jump up, my kids in eighth grade took classes I took in high school. My kids in high school took classes I took in college. Like everything's accelerated. Kids can go into college now with, you know, three semesters worth of college credits. So we've
Accelerated everything, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in not so great ways. You know, when I was growing up, Jared, I knew plenty of kids who played three or four sports a year. I didn't know anybody who had played so much of one sport that they had a sports injury. You know, like I all the different ways we have accelerated things academically, athletically. You know, there I wanna be very careful in what I'm about to say 'cause I know I'm gonna make some folks angry, but there was no animal of travel sports.
Jerrad Lopes (47:39.999)
Yeah, totally.
David (47:54.915)
Families spend a lot more time at home. You know, when we when Sissy and I travel around the country and speak at churches, I am not shocked anymore, but I'm disheartened by hearing pastors and children's pastors say repeatedly the hardest thing we face in getting families in the building is travel sports. Yeah, and and I'm just grieved by that. And that's not me saying travel sports is all terrible, but
Jerrad Lopes (48:17.16)
Yep. I've heard that too.
David (48:24.13)
You know, I I'm concerned about how so many things in terms of the pacing and pressure have limited the opportunities families have to just sit around the dinner table, to get in the car and go to church together every Sunday, to be in the same city on the weekends. You know, like just all the parts and pieces to your great question that I think are behind the pressure and all the ways it plays out. You know, when I was applying to college, I
I laugh and say the only two things I needed were a pulse and a checkbook. And nowadays it's like you need a stellar GPA and to have started a nonprofit by your eighteenth birthday. You know, there's just so much pressure that if we s factor in all those ingredients and stir the pot is where none of us should really be surprised we are dealing with a childhood epidemic of anxiety in our country. So we are gonna have to figure out and I would argue we've always had to figure out. This is not a new problem, but we've always had to figure out
Jerrad Lopes (49:14.312)
Yeah.
David (49:21.942)
What does it look like to live into the wisdom of those words in Scripture of how to be in this world and not of it? You know, how can I move against a lot of messages that are coming at me, that are coming again coming at my kids that are the wisdom of living into those words?
Jerrad Lopes (49:28.585)
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (49:40.297)
Yeah. Well, I'm grateful you said that things are speeding up because I I haven't been able to help like my third grader with homework and I felt like it was a me problem, but I'm like, okay, this is she's like she's learning some college stuff over here apparently. I yeah, I'm just like my wife will ask me, she's she'll have to work and then come home and like, did you do the homework? I was like, I tried. I tried to do the homework with her. I could not get through it.
David (49:54.592)
I'm impressed you could make it that long. I struggling in second grade.
Jerrad Lopes (50:07.526)
Man, I'm I'm so grateful for your time. I have a I have a bazillion more questions, but I I need to not be lazy and just read your book again and to listen to the podcast Capable, how to teach your kids the strength, skills, and strategies to build resilience. there are a few parenting books that I just keep around on the shelf visible so I can go back to on my journey. And this is one of them. So thank you, brother, for writing this. you're you're such a huge help.
For us parents. I w again, I wish I had another couple of hours with you 'cause I I could just keep picking your brain. But so much wisdom. I highly encourage everyone to get a copy of this book, to listen to your guys' podcast. But thank you, brother, for your time and your wisdom today.
David (50:47.672)
Those are generous words. It is a joy to spend time with you. And and thank you. Jared, thanks for doing good and faithful work in the world. I am so honored every time our paths intersect and grateful for this really thoughtful conversation today. So thank you for inviting me into it.
Jerrad Lopes (51:02.357)
Thank you, brother.