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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Ep 10 - The Trap of Imposter Syndrome
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[00:00:00] Introduction
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Amy (she/her): both of these people, I had to almost physically take them by the shoulder and say, "Quit talking bad about yourself. You are here because I believe in you. You are here because you have earned the privilege of being here.
You are not the shit photographer that you keep trying to tell me that you are. I know what you are capable of, and so I need you to stop talking to yourself." Like, like you would never be this mean to somebody, to a friend, or even to a random stranger.
Amy (she/her): today's episode I feel like is a topic that is like capping off the whole season. you know, we had planned out these episodes and we have talked through them one at a time, but the more we talked, the more episodes we produced, the more I was seeing the through line, of elements of a bigger thing that we usually call imposter syndrome.
So I feel like we've talked about all the pieces that are underpinning it, and now today we're gonna kinda bring it all together.
the threads that have kind of shown up in this, in this season are things like, you talking about as a new photographer, you kept getting stuck in things like worrying about details, are you good enough, and kind of getting in your own way.
In episode four, we talked about natural talent and do I actually have what it takes. worrying about throwaway shots as being a personal failing rather than just that's how learning works. you know, the idea that if I belonged here, wouldn't this be easier?
In episode six, we talked about perfection, which is about hiding and not being good enough, I think one of the key moments in that is where, Casey, where you talked about comparing your day five to my year 25.
we also talked about how the, that kind of preemptive, "I know I'm not good enough, I know this isn't perfect," kind of as a way to, to prevent the, the uncomfortable feelings that we get, if we get some criticism. episode seven, we talked about keeping the peace, And in that episode, we called it out explicitly, talking about how the voice in our head may not be our own voice.
It may have come from somebody else. and it may not even be about photography.
we may take that voice and turn it into something that feels like we're saying it to ourselves. "Oh, I'm not good enough. I'm not really a photographer." but it could be coming from someone else's impatience with your hobby, their discomfort with the way that you are changing and growing.
So in episode eight, we, we went a little bit a step further and talked about how, these labels are about behavior and not identity, and that Saying, "I have imposter syndrome," should start the conversation and not end it.
So if we wanna talk about ending conversations, today is kind of that capstone moment for season one. so I think at this point I'm gonna turn it over to you, Casey, and you can get us started.
[00:03:23] What Imposter Syndrome Actually Is
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Casey (she/her) (2): I think this is one of those things where whether we use the language imposter syndrome or not, a lot of people feel the things that we're talking about. And so even if you maybe haven't used that language with yourself, please stick around and listen to this whole episode, 'cause I you dollars to donuts that you have felt the things that Amy was just describing that we've talked about in previous episodes. Um, and we're just gonna get more specific with it. And so first off, I do wanna comment, imposter syndrome and imposter complex, essentially the same thing. There's a slight semantic, like if you really wanna get into the minutiae difference between the two. I go back and forth between those, and so I just
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her) (2): like if you hear me say one or the other,In the context of this conversation, syndrome, imposter complex, same thing. what the hell does that mean? This is another one of those things where we see it online all the time, we talk about it, maybe we even say, "Oh, I'm struggling with like the imposter complex today." And then...
We were getting ready for this episode, I was like, "Oh, do I articulate what imposter complex is?" about this all the time with clients, like in the past. I work on this with people, and like, I was like, "Oh, I still have to be able to articulate it to someone else." So essentially
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): we're describing is this feeling of a gap between your actual competence and your felt competence. So we have this evidence that you can go take a good photo, but you do not feel like you take a good photo. You do not believe you take a good photo. That's kind of a way oversimplified example. But, um, and, and, and sometimes this is as loud and dramatic as, "I'm a fraud, I don't belong here, I'm not good enough."
It is that very negative self-defeating self-talk. And sometimes it's really subtle. It shows up in over-editing, over-preparing, triple-checking, not being willing to like submit your stuff for review because you can't handle any level of criticism on it. Some of, of the overthinking and the perfectionism episodes are at root could probably be called syndrome, is, is that's how that's showing up, is that disconnect between what's reality and what we think reality is. Um, and this happens at every level. Like, when we talk about like actual competence versus self-competence, as a beginner, I still have a certain level of competence. And I can look at my bird photography and look at Amy's bird photography and know that I have a long way to go. That's not imposter complex.
That is like, I truly just have a lot to learn, and that's okay. Versus like looking at my own bird photos and, or having Amy tell me, "Oh my gosh, this is a great photo," um, goals, is like getting that like praise and then being like, "No, that's not true. This is a terrible photo." Or, "Oh, she's just saying that to be nice 'cause she's my-" My friend and like dismissing it, that's when it would be more imposter syndrome
Amy (she/her): Which if you know me, I do not bullshit people that way. In fact, I joke with my students, I know you know that, I watch the show Great British Bake Off with, and Paul Hollywood is, you know, one of the hosts and, and there's the Paul Hollywood handshake, and it's like one of those rare treasured things.
And I'm like, I am the Paul Hollywood of photography, you know, coaching and instruction, because I don't give that, those compliments out lightly. But then the flip side is, so you may feel like you want more, you, either you Casey or you whoever, but I, I am not gonna give that out until I truly mean it.
And so, um, that can be a frustration on the, on the instructor and coaching side in, in terms of watching people dealing with the imposter syndrome and taking something that is true and, and they can use as fuel to keep going, and then twisting it and turning it into something negative. So we can talk more about that as we go.
Casey (she/her) (2): think that's kind of a good segue I can give you a, like clinical what is imposter syndrome and all of the things I just said.
[00:07:26] The Credential Chase
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Casey (she/her) (2): But as like an instructor and as somebody who's been doing this for so long, I'm kind of curious, like are there some specifics that you see where somebody maybe isn't using the words imposter syndrome, but you're like, "Oof, they are stuck in that loop." Um, I'm wondering if there's kind of an example or two that pops to mind that maybe we haven't quite hit on yet.
Amy (she/her): Well, because my memory is as shit as yours, I have no idea if we've hit on this before, but we'll, uh, what comes to mind what comes to mind are a couple of instances where I've brought on new photographers and both, in both cases it's been people that have worked with me, um, a- as on the student level, and then brought them into my, to be on my photography crew for, um, the big events.
I can't do a six-ring event with just me unfortunately. I'm still, I'm still waiting for the cloning technology to catch up with that, that I could be at six rings at once. It's never gonna happen. So I bring in people, and these are people that I, I know their skills. I do not invite someone to come and shoot for me, um, unless I trust that you are where you need to be, and I'm realistic about the, where you are.
I don't expect you to come in and shoot like me. I expect you to come in and do your best, and I am there to coach you through it.
and it's just an extension of the work that we've already done as, as teacher and student.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): And so, but I had to, both of these people, and, and they will know exactly who they are, um, I had to almost physically take them by the shoulder and say, "Quit talking bad about yourself. You are here because I believe in you. You are here because you have earned the privilege of being here.
You are not the shit photographer that you keep trying to tell me that you are. I know what you are capable of, and so I need you to stop talking to yourself." Like, like you would never be this mean to somebody, to a friend, or even to a random stranger. Like, you would never talk this way.
You would never say that to a friend, "Oh, you suck." They wouldn't be your friend very long.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right
Amy (she/her): So why are you saying it to yourself? You're not hearing it from me.
Casey (she/her) (2): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): are you saying it to yourself? And, and I, I want my crew, and even my students, I want them to trust my confidence in them. They don't have to be confident in themselves initially.
Eventually, you do have to get there, because I can't, can't keep propping you up the whole time. But you, you need to be self-sufficient at a certain point. But I don't expect that from the very beginning. So I- I wish that, that my students would trust my confidence in them, because my gut is not wrong.
I am very good at assessing on very little information, if people are gonna be a good match for my crew. I, the first time I t- I taught a class, um, and this was back when I was in, uh, teaching for Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. The very first class I ran, there was a woman in there who had just ordered her camera.
It arrived, like, the day before class started. She had never shot with a camera that fancy before. I don't even remember what her prior experience was. And by, like, week two, I already knew in my own head that I was gonna invite her to, to come and work on my crew at some point, because I could see that she had what she needed to be able to do this.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right.
Amy (she/her): and, and I s- I don't necessarily ... I couldn't have listed off why. I couldn't have given you a list of qualifications, but I just, my gut was like, "Yeah, she's got it, and she's gonna work for me at some point." And I've had that feeling about a lot of my crew I have seen it early,
Casey (she/her) (2): Right
Amy (she/her): and it's just, it's, they have to kinda catch up and believe in themselves, and then accept, you know, accept the offer of, yes, come and work for me,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): not, and just stop talking bad about yourself.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right. Yeah, that's, I mean,
Amy (she/her): So.
Casey (she/her) (2): the, the way we talk to ourselves versus the
Amy (she/her): Oof
Casey (she/her) (2): we would ever talk to other people, that, that's a whole tangent soapbox that I can get on. I will keep my soapbox stored for the moment. But, people, words matter, um, in so many contexts. And so the, what... And you even said it.
You were kind of, like, said something about, like, you know, realizing this about somebody a couple weeks into working with them, that they're gonna have, that they have what it takes to eventually be invited on your crew, or, like, You said the word credentials and it popped in my brain. Like, w- how
Amy (she/her): うん。
Casey (she/her) (2): So I was thinking about in photography, like, why, not just photography, this I think is in creative endeavors, but, like, why does imposter complex happen? And I think one of the big ones that I came up with is, like, in photography there's no process. Like, I mean, there, I'm sure there are certifications out
Amy (she/her): There are,
Casey (she/her) (2): there are
Amy (she/her): yes.
Casey (she/her) (2): that have figured out the way to certify everything. And, and there are, like, I know there are some awards, like critique, um, things, and so I see photographers that have their little, like, level of what award they won kind of thing on their badge on their website. But, like, short of getting, like, college degree in photography, this isn't an industry that has a clear path of education, and a lot of s- photographers that I'm seeing are essentially self-taught, whether where along the way they start getting support. But I'm, there's this like, like I look at my photography and I'm like, "Yeah, I kind of, oh, if I could have a certification, then that would prove to me that I'm good at this." Versus, like, as a coach, I have a master's degree in therapy, I have, coaching certifications, all these things. And so there's this, like, external validation checkpoint that I checked boxes. It's not just Amy being nice to me, inviting me on her crew. I've literally, like, checked the boxes educationally. So I think there's that plays into it a lot in photography. And you're
Amy (she/her): kinda,
Casey (she/her) (2): along, so
Amy (she/her): the, kind of the, the idea of having, yeah, the idea of having a resume and you can put specific degrees and certifications and, uh, and whatnot. And, and yes, you are right. There are certifications out there. There are organizations you can join that either through competition or through classes, coursework, continuing education kinds of things, you can earn credits and, and add these things.
Um, if you go to my website, I don't have any of those because that's never been important to me.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right.
Amy (she/her): it looks good on social media, and it, it's something that m- you know, gives some sort of credibility I guess. But it's never been a thing for me. So I mean, I have a college degree.
I'm not going back for another one. I, you know... I f- I feel like my math and physics is like, I, I feel like I can do anything with it. Not,
Casey (she/her) (2): yeah.
Amy (she/her): not specifically in math and science, but it proves that I know how to think
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes.
Amy (she/her): how to problem solve. So I'm just, we're just going with that.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so and I don't, I don't wanna poo-poo those people who do go after those certifications and the contest entries and all of that, and, and great.
Go for it, do it, and I, I will be there to applaud your success 'cause I, I think those are really impressive accomplishments.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): but it's just not ever been something that's been important to me. I've entered one contest and actually did well, so
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): a bird photo, so
Casey (she/her) (2): nice. Yeah, and, and I, I think that's like, this is very much like a, a personal choice kind of thing. And you said resume, and also I was like, I was thinking like it's... I've noticed in researching companies that are doing like the studio pet portrait, a lot of them mention like how many dogs they've photographed.
Amy (she/her): うん。
Casey (she/her) (2): you know, like there's, uh, a company I like, and they are known for doing pop-ups, and they're like, "Our record is like 82 dogs in a single day at a single event." Um, that they're like moving through a pop-up setting and like, you know, the photographer's like... What's the face you're making?
Amy (she/her): Faces, that's a lot of dogs, and I'm not sure it's the flex they think it is. Like, I, I, and maybe I don't know anything
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah. It, it's one of those, I think it's, it's, like, it's a five-minute shoot. You come in, we spend five minutes
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): dog, you get one photo, we get 25 bucks, and you're out the door.
Amy (she/her): Right. Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): do every event that way. I think that's also... But, like, they show that they can run this efficient
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): get everybody a
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): But I've noticed that there's this way of, like, how do we credential ourselves, especially photographers who are getting into a level of professionalism, of running this as a business, of, you know, things like that. It's like, how do you credential yourself?
So that, uh, just kind of popped up when you said resume. I was like, yeah, there's... I don't know how you build a resume as a photographer
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): say, like, "I've shot 1,000 weddings," or I've sh- I, you know, I've done a thousand, like,
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): or whatever. Um,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): side of this, to not get too derailed into that, like, the other side of this is, like, so the people who do want the certifications, 'cause hi, that's me, I love a good certification for anything and everything. Um, now I'm gonna have to go down the rabbit hole of finding photography
Amy (she/her): Ah.
Casey (she/her) (2): and start collecting
Amy (she/her): Or, or now I'm gonna have to like write my own certification program, which cer- certainly is a thing that I have seen done, and I'm like, "What the hell? You mean I can just make this shit up? Okay, fine. I will make shit up and give you a gold star for it." H-
Casey (she/her) (2): It's,
Amy (she/her): this, see, this is,
Casey (she/her) (2): thing to know
Amy (she/her): mm
Casey (she/her) (2): is a lot of them are made up and mean nothing,
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her) (2): and
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her) (2): tactic.
here's my thing with the certifications. We'll, we'll go down that rabbit hole for a Let's put it in this context. So when you are the client looking for a t- photographer to buy from, say you're looking for a wedding photographer, and you see at the bottom of their website there's all of these, like, little badges that they're a level two in this pro- all these things that feel really fancy and official.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): If you go look at the qu- like, what those things actually mean, a lot of them actually aren't that fancy or official. But the
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her) (2): doesn't tend to do that next level of research. They see the little fancy badge, and they're
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): that's authority building. When you are trying to sell a product, authority building is a huge part of selling a product. And so as a consumer, know that those are not an end-all be-all piece of information because at the
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): I, as a beginner photographer, if I'm good enough at marketing, could make up a certification program and start selling it. There is no
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her) (2): on this.
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her) (2): flip side of this is, like, to, as a person with raging ADHD, um, as you we have talked about, I sometimes like things that are in the format of a certification program because I love the the certification, of getting the final big gold star. And so that will get me to show up lesson after lesson after lesson to learn the shit that I'm trying to learn. And so for me as a person gathering certifications, I am trying to make sure I understand a certain amount of information. I am trying to build authority to show that on my website. Uh, like the number of coaching certifications I've been through, like, I did them because I wanted to learn that methodology of coaching, damn, I love the little certification at the end.
Doesn't that make me feel good too? So there, there's two sides to it.
Amy (she/her): This, this is completely fascinating as, as I'm trying to build my membership, 'cause I'm like, I have not put any sort of effort into any sort of gold star system. We'll just call it that for the moment. Because I, I personally don't enjoy them.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right. And
Amy (she/her): But I'm, I'm thinking that I need to revise that thought and, and perhaps implement something
Casey (she/her) (2): about gamification and
Amy (she/her): Oh, there we go. That's a good one for next season. Yeah, yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah. Is... So there's two sides of it, as consumer versus as business. So that is my, my tangent on certification. So to, to back this pony way back up for a second, so a lot of times w- people who are struggling with imposter complex, there is this element of like, where does it come from underneath?
There's a reason these voices are in our brain telling us we're not good enough, and a lot of us chase... I am a certification chaser. I, I, I own that without shame anymore. Used to feel really bad about that, but you know what? That's how my brain works. for me, I have done a bunch of work, and I know that there's two levels.
For me, I chase certifications for the dopamine of getting a big gold star and a pat on the head, and I have a lot of like trauma about not getting a pat on the head and a big gold star from when I was a kid. And so like I'm finding less pressure to get certified in things the more time I spend in therapy. And so im- hmm, so imposter complex comes from somewhere. And so this can be familial messaging, messaging that grew up, you grew up around with your parents. This could be things that happened to you in high school and the way people talked to you, your teachers treated you, your grades, the impact your grades had on your self-esteem. this can be the way society talks about that are art-based. "Oh, you can't make money as an artist." Like I, I
Amy (she/her): Oh
Casey (she/her) (2): do an ind- an interview about this and be like, "How do you make money taking pictures of dogs?" And she's like, "Ho, I live in New York City. I make money." You know? And like that's all
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): say about it. But like there's some sort of underlying, I'm gonna say trauma, um, big
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): little T, but there's something that underlies that. And so that... I think it's important to acknowledge that part 'cause we talk about it as a mindset issue. "Oh, just talk nice to yourself.
Oh, just see what I see in how good your photography is." But like we don't get that self-deprecating of voice in our brain. That's not natural. Our brain is not designed to shit on us that hard. That came from somewhere, and most people aren't taking the time to figure out where it came from because they think it's just a mindset issue.
It's just a... Or it's, or they believe it and they think they just need to be a better photographer and that voice will go away. That voice will never go away if you don't work on it.
[00:21:44] Action Before Thought
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Amy (she/her): we've talked about the labels and just kind of getting stuck with, you know, I'm a perfectionist, I'm,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): I'm an overthinker, and, and that's where the conversation or, or the, the process stops. The awareness, you get to the, a level of being aware of this part of, of who you are.
And, and not stepping beyond that and going... Well, first of all, deciding whether or not you like it. Do you like being an overthinker? If you like being an overthinker, fine, have at it. I think, I think that's a really hard way to move through the world, but if you enjoy that, by all means. so answer the question, do you enjoy it?
No. Okay, so now what are you gonna do about it? And, and then now we're back to that idea of action versus thought, and doing something to start shifting away from I suck to, no, I, I've got this.
I know what I'm doing.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): just acknowledging that I have imposter syndrome, acknowledging that you are an overthinker, acknowledging that you're a perfectionist, acknowledging any number of these things we've talked about this season, um, that's not where it stops
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of cliche, but like the first step of AA is admitting that you're an alcoholic. That's like literally the first thing you do, get up in AA and you say your name and you say you're an alcoholic, and then you work the other 11 steps. You know,
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): similar. You have to see it, you have to acknowledge it.
I love you saying the thing about like how do you feel about it, ask yourself if you like it, because like are parts of my personality that are driven by my ADHD that on one hand they annoy the ever living shit out of me,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): but I have also realized that I am not going to unwire some of the way my brain works. Or the years of therapy it's taking to work through some of these things, like the process is slow on some of these. And so like finding that peace with like I am an anxious over thinker, and I will say that label as I am, but I also am very aware of like when I'm letting myself go too far with the overthinking. When am I
Amy (she/her): Kind of
Casey (she/her) (2): be
Amy (she/her): wallow in it.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah, that's a good word. Yeah, like when am I
Amy (she/her): Like
Casey (she/her) (2): in,
Amy (she/her): into it.
Casey (she/her) (2): yeah, versus when do I like acknowledge it and I'm like, great, I'm gonna put a time limit on letting myself... This is one, ooh, actually this is a great idea for me, is putting a timer on when I'm editing. Like I get five minutes to work on the edits for this photo, and then I need to walk away for 24 hours.
Amy (she/her): Mm.
Casey (she/her) (2): way to let me overthink, but also start to change the pattern. And that's
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): just saying too, is like then h- do you do about it? 'Cause this isn't as simple as, well, just think differently.
Amy (she/her): Right. Right. It's, it's, thinking is, is the, is not the leading indicator. Like, you need to lead with the action, and then that causes the change in the thinking pattern, um, rather than the other way around. I mean, it, it, like we get things backwards.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes. Yes. Thinking is so e- so easy to do. You can sit on your couch and think about how good you are at something, or about how bad you are at something, or how good you might be at something without ever doing it. This is where people get trapped in, like, the learning thing.
This is d- to go back to chasing certifications for a moment. I see people get trapped in chasing certifications and then never going out into the field and doing that thing because they're
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): that fear of like, "Oh, I just gotta learn a little more. If I just learn that one more thing, then this will feel easier, or this will feel doable, or I'll feel good." No. Finish the certification and then go take some damn photos and see what happens
Amy (she/her): This is me in, in marketing. This is me in social media. I, I, I hate it, and,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so I, I sit and think about it, and I s- scroll Facebook, and I'm like, "Oh, maybe that person has the answer to how to make it really super easy." And I, I thankfully have quit buying things, but, um, yeah, I c- nobody's gonna save me.
For me, it feels like I'm waiting for someone to come in, swoop in, and be, you know, Superman and sweep me off my feet and, and save me and just deliver customers to, to me without, you know, with a superpower rather than just doing the fucking work.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yep.
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her) (2): start posting shit to social media and see what happens, and then build from there. And so this is
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): segue. So like when we are trapped in imposter complex, and you were talking about that thing of like thinking versus doing, and I think we've talked about this in other episodes, and Amy, I know you and I have talked about this a lot, is our brain and our nervous system are not always on the same page. what we would like to think about our body, we can know in our brain there are times where like know did a good job baking these cupcakes, and in my body when I'm like waiting for somebody to taste it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Oh, are they gonna hate it? Is this terrible?
Oh my God, I did it wrong. There wasn't enough chocolate." I know I did, ugh, you know? And so this is the, the where a lot of people get stuck, and then they shut down. Or they get like activated and they go into over-planning, over-editing, the fight or flight or freeze kicks in. So we have to go back to like baby steps, and
we have to get our nervous system to catch up with our logic, with our brain. And so for you, the social media is a great example. I know you're not the only one who struggles with that. Like right now you are just posting stuff to social media. You've made it as simple as possible, like photos, music, post. think about it beyond that. You are slowly teaching your nervous system each time you do that, it's safe to do that. our nervous system doesn't necessarily know right or wrong, good or bad. It knows safe and unsafe. Basically every cue that's happening in your body boils down to safe or unsafe.
Amy (she/her): it's not trying to make me happy. My nervous system isn't trying to make me happy. It's trying to make sure I'm not dying, right? Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah,
it also can't tell the difference. So when you feel happy and when you feel scared, every feeling you have is like a release of chemicals from your brain into your body. Your nervous system doesn't really know the difference between those chemicals.
So the, the adrenaline of anxiety, it cannot tell the difference from, from the adrenaline of having fun. So like being afraid of flying but loving roller coasters, your brain doesn't know the difference. It's just flooding you with chemicals to make you feel some sort of way. And so you get to like figure out how to start to connect with that.
And so the first part is like you've gotta go start doing the thing. And then the part we don't talk about a lot, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you probably see this in photography a lot, is people are getting over themselves. They get over their fear, they go take a bunch of photos, they do some editing, they bring you the photos, and they like, the process like stops there, and imposter syndrome kicks back in.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): Is we're doing the work i- on the front half, but not doing the work again on the back half, and so we're not breaking the loop. So they
Amy (she/her): You, yeah, say more about that, 'cause I'm not, I'm not quite following
Casey (she/her) (2): I could, I was guessing by the look on your face is, so let's say, um, I, l- so one of the things I'm working on, trying to make this kind of a personal example, is like I, I'm obsessed with pet portrait photography.
I wanna do these dog photos. I've spent a lot of time learning and, like, I'm afraid to go take pictures of my dogs 'cause I'm afraid the pictures are gonna turn out bad and I'm gonna prove to myself that I'm a failure and a fraud. I logically see all of the flaws with that train of thought, and so I'm like, "Great, I'm gonna take what I learned.
I'm gonna grab my dogs, I'm gonna grab some lights, I'm gonna grab a camera, we're gonna take some photos." And I took those photos and I'm like, "Okay, these aren't bad." And I did a round of editing. I'm like, "Okay, I think I got this." Like, and then I sent you the photos and you were like, "Hey, here's some things to correct Oh, well, I, I thought they were great, and Amy didn't love them, and I didn't get my Hollywood handshake, and I'm a terrible photographer, and fuck it, I shouldn't do this.
Not saying that that's how I felt, but, like, this is, this is what I'm
Amy (she/her): An example of what I'm... Yes
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah, is we go take the photos, and then we don't get the feedback that we were expecting, or I- what I see more people do, your feedback is helpful. What I see more people do is they take a photo they're so excited about and they post it on social media, and the comments section tears them apart. And they have no skill to then handle... Now we're hitting the second half that I was just mentioning. There's no skill to handle that critique, and so that critique gets internalized as evidence that they're doing it wrong or that they're bad or proves to them, so to speak, quote-unquote, proves to them that all of their imposter complex was right and that they don't belong. And so there isn't that second half of now going, "Okay, these critiques." respect Amy's opinion. That's why I go to her for critiques, is they don't make me feel bad, is it's genuine learning versus posting the same picture online and I had someone make a comment that hurt my feelings until I went and looked at their photos and I was like, "Oh yeah, there's no reason you're hurting my feelings.
You, you are not good enough to hurt my feelings." And so that second half being like, what do we do once we've taken the photos, once things didn't turn out the way we wanted to? How do we keep coming back to take more photos?
Amy (she/her): One of the things I've done as a, as a teacher and coach, um, and I haven't done it in the, the membership recently, um, but I used to do this at FDSA all the time, is tell people, "Don't bring me your best photo. Don't bring me the photo that makes you feel all the things and ask me to give you feedback on it, because I will guarantee you I will find something, and I...
That maybe you anticipated, maybe you didn't, but it's gonna make you feel bad about the photo, and then you won't like it anymore." And I... Killing someone's darlings, that's a phrase out of, um, writing and editing. I c- I don't wanna kill what you love,
Casey (she/her) (2): No
Amy (she/her): sometimes the things that I say about your photo may cause you to feel that way about your photo.
So I, I, I need to bring that back and say, if you absolutely love a photo, don't bring it to me for critique. Bring it to me and say, "I love this photo. Don't you agree?" And I can go, "Yes, it's amazing." And, and it will still be genuine,
Casey (she/her) (2): Ja
Amy (she/her): because you've, you've told me that you want me to just support you and celebrate with you.
You aren't looking for critique. I can, I can make my brain switch that way, so it's still genuine. It's, it's, "This isn't a coach thing, Amy. I just want you to celebrate with me because I love this photo." Great. We can celebrate. We can have the party.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right
Amy (she/her): don't bring me your favorite photos, because I will absolutely inadvertently, unintentionally do something to make you feel bad about it, and I hate that.
I hate doing that to people.
[00:32:49] Predefining Success
---
Casey (she/her) (2): This is a really perfect like point for like what are some tangible tools to start to quiet that voice, to close that gap between actual competence and felt competence so that we like can just be honest with ourselves about where we're at, whether that's me as a beginner being honest that I know I have work to do, or whether that's these people that you've hired who finally get honest that actually I'm a fucking rock star, and they can like own that and say that, and you don't have to keep propping them up. So one of the first things I would say is just define success before the outcome instead of after. a like- The example of, like, bringing a photo to you for critique, I... is if I come to you with this favorite photo, and I just expect you to tell me it's great that you love it, and then you don't, and I know it was gonna be a critique session, the critique didn't go the way I want, then I've got myself into a pickle. Versus I can bring a photo I love to you. I know it's a critique session. feedback I get is good feedback, an opportunity to learn and grow. I've predefined that that is my goal. That is success for me. Then when you give me an opportunity to learn and grow as a photographer, I have succeeded from that critique. Even if the photo is terrible and everything is wrong with it, that's not the message I take. The message I take is that there's opportunity for growth here, and now I have some specific things to think about. so often, We don't clearly define what the outcome is, what success...
I, the number of times I have asked person, "What does success mean? Like, what, uh, how do you know that you've achieved this?" And they can't answer me, that's a problem. so knowing what success is. Is success the fact that you took the photo and submitted it to the competition? Or is success that you took the photo, submitted it, and won? Because a lot of
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): do is, like, "Oh, I'm just gonna submit this to, like, get through the nerves of, like, signing up for a competition. Like, I don't care," we tell ourselves. Mm, we tell ourselves, "I don't care how I place," and then we're devastated when we don't win. Predefine success, and then... And I'm gonna go so far as, like, go write that shit down somewhere.
Get your journal
Amy (she/her): 嗯。
Casey (she/her) (2): "I submitted a photo today, and I'm proud of myself for doing that, and I'm a success just for doing that." then in two weeks, when you get your critique back and your photo didn't win, you can go back and read that and be like, "Oh, yeah." 'Cause our brain will then instantly try to move the goalpost be like, "Well, but I w- I, actually, I really did wanna win." So there's an element of getting honest with ourselves here of, like, predefining success before we do the thing
Amy (she/her): Well, and right. Can I... What if
Casey (she/her) (2): Hmm.
Amy (she/her): you decide that your goal is, is to win or to do well in the competition, then there's also another level of honesty of you've gotta get serious about getting the tools and the support that you need in order to do that. 'Cause if you're not getting there, if you're not making the cut on your own, then that's when you, you go, "Okay, so I've exhausted..."
Either you, you figure out, you know, what you aren't using that you already have that's a tool or a, a process or a whatever, or you realize you need to have someone else weigh in here, and that's, you know, where a membership or a, a coaching call comes in. And not a, not a YouTube tutorial, people. Stop, stop it with YouTube tutorials.
They're not gonna save you.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes. Get customized support. Yes.
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her) (2): this is that gap between perceived competency versus actual competency is like we can have this perceived level that we're at, and sometimes the world hurts and we get this jarring realization that our perceived level doesn't match our actual level. And instead of internalizing that as a failure, or you can call it a failure, I learn from my failures, that whole cliche, is like, "Oh shit, that didn't go the way I thought it would. How do I g- close that gap between what I think versus what is real?" And so yeah, then go getting more support, go learning more, get a certification.
Um,
Amy (she/her): Go get that gold star.
Casey (she/her) (2): that gold
Amy (she/her): Yay
Casey (she/her) (2): is out, taking that feedback... So the next part of this, and we kinda talked about this, is that like what do you do with the second half of this information, is first there's a literal nervous system response, and so you might need to go shake it out, you might need to go scream into the void, go run around the block.
Like, let your nervous system feel what it's feeling about the response without judging that feeling and without tying meaning to that feeling. I can feel anxious in my body, and logically in my brain two... One of... There's one of two options. In my brain I can go, "Oh my gosh, I feel anxiety in my body. The world is ending.
I'm not safe," and let the anxiety spiral, and then my thoughts start to feed my feelings, and we create this like reverberating, expanding feedback loop. I can go, "Ooh, I'm feeling anxiety in my body, but I know I'm safe. I know
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): this feedback on the photo doesn't mean that I'm a failure and need to quit photography, it's just feedback." I still need to go like, go for a walk and get that feeling out of my body, but I don't let my brain follow the body.
Amy (she/her): that's where the, then the overthinking comes in, right? Where I have this feeling and I've assigned a story to it. I have made up a fucking story about what this means, and it's a big deal.
Casey (she/her) (2): Mm-hmm
Amy (she/her): so I'm gonna wallow in these feelings and they're gonna become my whole identity.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yep.
Amy (she/her): be exaggerating a little bit, but I think that, I think on some level sometimes it gets to that point.
Yeah. Like, it gets that big and, and, uh, it's, it's not that big. It's not that serious, people.
Casey (she/her) (2): No.
Amy (she/her): Most of the time it's really not that.
Casey (she/her) (2): And yeah, exactly. It's, we start to give that feeling, meaning we start to write a story, we start to, like, settle into that story. We start to make that story our identity, and, like, when we make something our identity, then we really sink into it, versus just, like, okay, that's some feedback. I'm feeling some sort of way. Not saying you can't feel that way. Like, I disappointed when I don't win an award? Abso-fucking-lutely. Like, I'm allowed to be disappointed and not make that mean anything about me. Detachment from the outcome is what they often refer to it as.
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her) (2): side of this, if you really wanna go deep with this, detachment from the outcome when it's a positive.
When you do win the competition, don't let that mean anything about you either. Ooh,
Amy (she/her): True.
Casey (she/her) (2): nother level of personal
Amy (she/her): that feels like a whole new rabbit hole.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes.
Amy (she/her): that I hadn't even really thought about. But yeah, there, there's... Oh, hmm
Casey (she/her) (2): in, the self-help space and the mental health space about, like, negative, like not tying yourself to these negative feelings. Not tying your self-worth to, like, how your social media posts perform.
You know, not tying your worth to, like, whether or not you win a competit-... We talk about that side of it a lot, which I think is great. But when you go the other direction with it and also learn to detach yourself from the positive outcomes, that's wild. Instead of, like, "Oh my gosh,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): 'cause the, I won the competition," it's like, "Oh, what about this photo it a winner? can I create this feeling in more photography?" Not, "I'm the greatest," but, "What can I learn from this?" And people don't do that side of it. So
Amy (she/her): Yeah. No, for sure.
Casey (she/her) (2): bonus
Amy (she/her): That's an interesting...
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I, I- that's gonna sit in my... I, I'm gonna let that one roll around for a while. I'm not quite sure how even how to talk about it yet. That's a fascinating one.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Huh. Huh.
Casey (she/her) (2): a lot of this is, like, the sensation, not the narrative. What's happening in your body,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): what's happening in your brain, and finding a way to do something with that stuff in your body without it becoming a story that you're telling yourself. And I also wanna give the caveat here that I say this in a way that sounds simple, and as we've talked about this, I think
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): this sounds like, "Oh, just, you know, don't have hard feelings. Just snap your fingers and don't think bad about yourself." I said previously in this episode, I've
Amy (she/her): No.
Casey (she/her) (2): for a decade, we are still talking about my sense of self-worth and how that
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): in my life.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): stuff takes work. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
[00:41:41] Retraining Takes Years, Not Days
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Amy (she/her): And I even think about it, you know, just in the two years that you and I have worked together, um, on my shit, and the way... At first it was, it was big swings of everything's fantastic and everything sucks.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): then over the years
the swings between this sucks and this is great have gotten smaller. The recovery time between having that this sucks to, oh no, I'm okay, has, has gotten much shorter. Like, I did not anticipate that. That was such an unanticipated thing of being able to look back over two years and go, "My God, it would take me days to recover from something big," what my nervous system thought was big and dramatic.
And now I can see it faster, I can catch it faster, but it is two years. I even think about where, how I've come in the last six years from, you know, from divorce to now,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I think I was in burnout when I first got divorced.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I remember hearing, I don't know if it was a TikTok or a post somewhere, that, you know, burnout doesn't...
You don't recover in, like, two days. It's not taking a week vacation.
Casey (she/her) (2): No
Amy (she/her): and the reality of, no, this is a years-long process, and my first thought was horror. Like,
Casey (she/her) (2): Oh,
Amy (she/her): I think this is describing me, but what are you talking about? What do you mean it's gonna take me five years to recover from burnout? And now in year six, I can look back and go, yeah, it fucking took that long 'cause it's just in the past six months to a year where I've been feeling like I am not in that burnout stage anymore.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so yeah, retraining our nervous system is non-trivial. It's a, it is a thing. Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): I love the language you used about the recovery time getting shorter as the marker, because that's so important you have... Back to that example of, like, I didn't win the photography competition, gonna feel bad. But does
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): you from picking your camera up for six months, or does that keep you from picking your camera up for, like, three days? Or do you rage pick up your camera 'cause you have to go prove somebody wrong? Like, but, like, it's
Amy (she/her): There can be that, yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): there are some feelings that are never going to go away. I'm not saying that you're never gonna feel like an imposter, you're never gonna be disappointed, you're never gonna have a bad day. I've been working in coaching and therapy for over a decade at this point. I still at least once a week think I am the biggest fake on the planet, and that thought lasts about a half a second before all this other proof that I've very consciously practiced... Ooh, here's another good one.
[00:44:26] Casey's Proof Stories
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Casey (she/her) (2): If this is a thing you're struggling with as a photographer, I want you to start creating, it whatever you want. I have what, I have two places I store these. I have a thing called love notes, and I have a thing called proof your brain is lying to you. basically
Amy (she/her): you've mentioned the, you've mentioned the, the proof my brain is lying to me one before, and I love it, and it's worth repeating, so repeat away
Casey (she/her) (2): So I literally have a note in my notes app called proof your brain is lying to you. And so when a client says something really nice to me about how much I've helped them change their life or how I helped them navigate a circumstance, I write a little note in there, and I screenshot emails or, like, text messages from, from social media, my comment section, from emails from, like, clients, replies to my newsletter.
I save this evidence I'm a good coach. And it used to be I would literally, like, have to sit down. I would... Imposter complex would get loud, and I would be sitting on my flo- floor crying, thinking about burning it all down and, like, "What am I doing?" And, "I'm a fraud and I'm a failure and a sca-" And this, I would wallow in it.
I would feel this imposter complex about being a coach for a week, maybe
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): My love notes is, um, it's a vintage, um, lunchbox that's full of, like, handwritten notes. Back when I used to do a lot of public speaking, I would get, like, thank you cards. Um, and I did speaking in a high school, so they, she'd have all the kids write me a note.
Amy (she/her): Oh, yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): love notes, is it's same, same concept just, um, in a vintage Jungle Books lunchbox. And I would literally sit on the floor and open my little lunchbox of love notes and read these notes from people whose lives I had touched. And now when the imposter complex pops up, at least once a week or so, brain instantly starts pulling all of that data.
I don't have to open the lunchbox or open the notes app and read it very often anymore. My brain all of a sudden is just like, "Oh, bitch shut up. Like, remember this person, remember this person, remember this thing. Hey, what about that? Hey,
Amy (she/her): Yeah, yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): a lunchbox full of notes? How about that?
You don't even need to read them. There's a whole box full of notes. And so created that counter proof. The feeling of imposter syndrome has never gone away. My recovery is
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): basically instantaneous. And so as a photographer, that photo that makes you feel good, save that and don't let anyone ruin it for you. If
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): a
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): critique, like, and I, I will screenshot and, like, clip the part I wanna keep. if you get a written critique and, like, the first line is, "Oh my gosh, we love the expression on the dog's face and the way the light has hit the dog," cr- like, screenshot that and throw away the rest of the critique.
Focus on that part, not the bad part. Start saving yourself love notes. Start saving... If somebody in your comment section says, "Oh my gosh, this is my favorite photo of this bird because whatever, this bird reminds me of my grandma," save that comment. Start building your love notes. That has been probably one of the biggest things that has helped me with imposter complex as a coach that I need to figure out how to start
Amy (she/her): 嗯。
Casey (she/her) (2): in photography
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
[00:47:31] Amy's Proof Stories
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Amy (she/her): So I, I can give you my version of that. I like the proof, proof my brain is lying to me. I, I, I love that concept because I, because I think our brains lie to us so often.
Casey (she/her) (2): Oh,
Amy (she/her): Like I've ta- I talked about, like my gut is good, but my brain, she is a bitch that is out to get me, I swear.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes.
Amy (she/her): Okay, so here's a couple of examples.
I know she's trying to keep me alive. I get it. I get it, but I'm not dying. That's the thing. I'm not dying, actually.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yes.
Amy (she/her): I've got three examples. you mentioned fake, uh, you know, feeling like you're faking a kind of idea, and, and I have... I think that is maybe the way that imposter syndrome shows up for me in my photography the most in terms of I'm doing things, I know I'm successful, but sometimes I feel like a fake because
when I was starting to learn photography, there were no YouTube videos. So I had just little bits of information I had gleaned from a couple of, of photographer- Well, my dad taught me the basics. I have another, uh, friend of my brother's, actually, who, um, works for, like, AP and, and shoots sports who gave me some really good just some nuggets of, of information that kinda got me on my way.
Um, and the rest of it is all just on-the-job training with feedback from customers just simply saying, "I like that photo. I don't like that photo." So it feels really fake. Like, and even going back to, I mean, the title of this podcast is The Focus Trap. That was the fundamental way of, of doing dog sports photography, agility photography, that I figured out, and I, I feel like I can say I figured it out on my own because, again, I had no way to know, I had no way to learn this stuff.
So I figured out for myself that if I focus on the equipment and then wait for the dog to come through, I was getting better results. Great. But it still felt like I was cheating somehow, like I was faking it somehow.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, and then the other thing I've, I did really early on was switch into manual exposure mode because I had the realization of, well, the light on the, on the dog isn't changing.
So why am I letting my camera change my settings for me, ISO or, or aperture or shutter speed, if I'm in one of those semi-auto modes?
Why is... am I letting the camera change how the pho- the photo looks when the light's not changing? So I, uh, I, I learned manual exposure because then I was getting consistent results from shot to shot to shot, rather than one being blown out and one being super dark and me not being able to control that in the moment.
So those two things, focus trap and manual exposure. I built my, my photography business on those. but I still always felt like I don't know if this is really the way I should be doing it.
Casey (she/her) (2): So the, the first moment of validation that I had was when I went on a bird photography workshop with Alan Murphy, and he was explaining how we were g- we were gonna shoot songbirds in flight, and he was describing to a T a focus trap.
Amy (she/her): The way I had been doing agility was how he does little birds in flight. And again, this is in the day of DSLRs, not mirrorless, so you could not track, um, a great kiskadee or you could not track a titmouse flying through the air.
You could not get those flight ph- photos. So we were doing a focus trap. And I will never forget that feeling of I almost fell off my chair and my jaw hit the floor like, "Oh, this is an actual thing." Like, I haven't been making this up all along. I've just stumbled upon a valid technique.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Okay. All right.
And I
Casey (she/her) (2): I, I
Amy (she/her): It was great. It was so ... Yeah, exactly. So I, it turns out I do need some external validation, but it's, it's not in the way of gold stars. It's figuring out that I'm not some kind of fraud in photography that has, you know, is cheating the system.
So then the, the next time this happened was after I'd been teaching for a while, so this would've been 2018, I think. Um, had the same experience. I might get a little emotional because, um, one of the greats in photography just passed away a- about a week ago, Chaz Glazer, and he is a Canon Explorer of Light.
And I met him once, and I followed his work. It's that beautiful combination of technique and storytelling. It is what I aspire to be as a bird photographer.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): hearing him speak in person, and he has h- has a delightful personality.
You know, he's got this sparkle in his eye and, and it's like he's always got something going on in his head that he's just not saying out loud. But he talked about if the light on your subject isn't changing, why are you changing your exposure? And he talked about so many of the things that
Like, uh, again, it was a, an almost falling off my chair moment of, okay, so there are professional photographers that are talking about this stuff this way. I'm not crazy because I'm not out here trying to spin my exposure compensation up and down and change and use auto ISO or use, you know, aperture priority.
This is, this is a thing. Like, this is legit. Like, there are reasons to do it this way, and I am teaching this stuff now. The conference where I heard him speak was called Animal Image Makers, and,
several of my students, um, came as well. So we all got to hang out in person, but we all went to his talk. And as he's talking, they're all looking at me and laughing because they are hearing exactly the things coming out of his mouth that they have heard from me for, you know, a healthy several years at this point.
Casey (she/her) (2): gosh,
Amy (she/her): So that validation, not just as a p- photographer, but as an educator, was, was enormous. And then, of course, they're like, "You have to go get your picture taken afterwards." So I did. I have a picture of, of the two of us. And, you know, he was so gracious, and he live- loved that stuff.
And he ... My students were even saying, "Yeah, yeah, she teaches th- that stuff, too." And I'm like, "This is not about me." But it was, it was also gratifying, and it was ... Yeah. So those moments of validation from people that I still look up to as I have not gotten to that level,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): those are what I find reinforcing.
And then the other fun thing that I do is I will go and hate shop. Um, like you, you know, if you hate listen to something, like you listen to something that you hate but you just can't... I will go, so the clearest example of this, 2019, my family trip to, um, Alaska. in Homer, there are a bunch of gift shops, and of course, in every gift shop there is inevitably wildlife photography that you can buy a print and take it home, or you can buy cards,
And so my goal was to go in and examine the photos that were being sold in this highly tourist era, area to see what do people consider sale worthy. And so I would look and I would, you know, get as close as I could and look for, at the sharpness 'cause that's, that's my thing.
and the, the lack of sharpness I was seeing in these, in these pictures, or the sharpness in the wrong place, like on the, on the moose's butt instead of on the eye.
Casey (she/her) (2): Right
Amy (she/her): the amount of that that I saw
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): just, I'm like, "Holy shit, why am I s- why do I not think I'm a good photographer?"
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I was figuring out the evidence for no, I, I actually do what I'm talking about. I do know how to do this. And I even bought one or two of the cards to bring home to, and I, I've lost track of it now. I need to go find them. Um, but, uh, just to kind of put up on my desk and go, "Yeah, you're better than that, so suck it up and shut up."
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah. Yes. Yes. I, I love that kind of evidence, the rage shopping, like that one always cracks me up, 'cause I always make the joke about, like, having the audacity of a mediocre white man. Um,
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her) (2): it's, it's that kind of thing, is there is somebody who is worse than you getting paid more than you to do this work because they have the audacity. And then here we are as, like, experts in our field afraid to put ourselves out there I feel bad doing it, 'cause who am I to go, like, judge and pick apart
But I'm like, they don't know. This is for me. I'm not gonna
Amy (she/her): No. Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her) (2): are. I'm not gonna blast them on social media. This is purely a, like, reflection moment for myself. So, like, if you are somebody who needs to go do that, please go do that.
Amy (she/her): There's someone on, on Facebook right now that every time one of his reels, 'cause of course it's a man,
Casey (she/her) (2): Yep.
Amy (she/her): comes up, I, I wanna scroll away. You know who I'm talking- I sent you one of them. And I'm like, I... This is ridiculous, and, and he's getting views. And, and i- so it's a, again, another one of those, if he can do it, I sure as hell can.
Casey (she/her) (2): like that reframe of, "If he can do it, then why can't I?" Like, if he can do it, then absolutely I can. Because I think sometimes people see that and they're like, "Oh, if he's doing it," th- they, like, interpret it the wrong way to, like, further feed that imposter
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her) (2): is like, be honest with yourself.
If you let yourself look deep inside your heart, I think there are a lot of people who struggle with imposter complex who actually are really good, who are y- I mean, you've mentioned people that have worked for you. Like, they're phenomenal at what they do, and I think if you gave them the space and the permission to, like, gloat and, like, be proud of themselves and be
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her) (2): they know that. But somewhere along the
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her) (2): told they weren't allowed to feel that or say that, and so they've
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her) (2): this, like, imposter syndrome thing, go tell yourself in the mirror that you're doing a really good job. It's probably harder than you think it is, but it's so good for you to own when you're...
L- look at other people's social media, look at the photos when you're on your next trip to Alaska, and, like, go look at what's in the souvenir shop. And it's okay to say, "Oh shit, I'm better than that,"
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her) (2): and believe it
Amy (she/her): I mean, the guy got the, you know, the guy that I bought the cards from, he got his money.
Casey (she/her) (2): still got his money, right?
Amy (she/her): still got his money. I didn't, like, put a note on the, the cash and say, "You suck, but I'm buying it anyway just to remind myself that I'm good." I, I...
Casey (she/her) (2): a
Amy (she/her): There is... I'm not h- right.
Casey (she/her) (2): But that's, that's,
Amy (she/her): But
Casey (she/her) (2): that, that evidence. Like you said, finding that evidence, write it down, take a picture of it, post it in front of your desk, whatever it is, to start to see, get your brain to see the reality of who you are and what you're doing, and then doing that nervous system work to get your brain and your nervous system on the same page. And know that if you're struggling with the overthinking, the perfectionism, the imposter syndrome, it might never go away completely, but we're trying to shorten that recovery time.
it's about being able to take action spite of those feelings versus letting those feelings derail you from what you could and should be achieving in your photography career, journey, whatever you want it to be
Amy (she/her): Yes. And I think that's probably where we'll leave it,
We don't have season two planned 100% by any stretch, but we h- we have some ideas. Well, the... Okay, maybe I have it planned in my head. I know I shared it at one point, but maybe that's...
Casey (she/her) (2): Maybe I...
Amy (she/her): I'm, I'm expecting too much of your memory.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her) (2): you on
Amy (she/her): So all right. So season one is, has been all about the trap of and the things that we fall prey to. And kind of, not, not being negative. We're, we're always trying to flip it and give you, you know, a way out of that trap. But, um, season two is gonna be about focus. So again, another piece of, of the title of the podcast.
And talk about focus on, and talk about focusing on the good stuff. So one of the things that I think of is focus on intentionality, focus on joy. that's kind of the direction my brain is heading, um, for the next 10 episodes. We also have some ideas about some guest speakers that we're gonna bring in.
we have work to do on that front, but, I'm excited to bring other voices into this, and I don't know, I don't know what direction those are gonna go.
But that's the exciting part. Right?
Casey (she/her) (2): Yep.
Amy (she/her): So,
Casey (she/her) (2): surprise.
Amy (she/her): so that's where we're headed.we're gonna put the, the email address of the, the podcast in the show notes.
So if you have ideas, if you have questions, if you have topics that you want us to cover, um, things that you disagree with, um, things that you love, we wanna hear it all. So, um, we'll start putting that in, in the show notes so that it's there. You can reach out to us.
this has been really fun. I, I, I knew this was something I wanted to do, but I didn't quite have a good vision for how I wanted it to go. And then this
Casey (she/her) (2): Yeah
Amy (she/her): just random moment in a, in a coaching call with Casey was, what if we just did a podcast?
And I have zero regrets, and I'm just as excited as I was the first time.
Casey (she/her) (2): Yep,
Amy (she/her): excited to see what season two brings. We're probably gonna take a couple weeks off, a hiatus to get a little bit ahead of the recording so we have that, that, uh, comfort in, in the posting schedule.
But, um, we will be back. Maybe we should just say we'll be back the first Thursday of, of August, and- Uh, so follow us, like us, subscribe, all the things. Email us, let us know your thoughts, and we will see you again in August. So thank you all for coming on this journey with us, and
Casey (she/her) (2): yeah.
Amy (she/her): see what season two brings
Casey (she/her) (2): Let's keep going.