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This podcast is all about the journey. The journey of self-discovery, the journey to reach our highest potential and the journey to understand the nature of reality.
Podcast host Garett Renon is currently studying shipibo style plant medicine and is an apprentice under world renown shipibo curandero and ayahuasquero Ricardo Amaringo. Garett brings a unique perspective and insight into the world of shipibo style plant medicine documenting his year long sama with the powerful master tree ayahuma.
Join Garett on his journey as he discusses: The power and potential of Plant medicine, Human potential, The power of the mind, The nature of consciousness, Supernatural phenomena and much more.
Welcome to the Deeper You Go, The Weirder It Gets. I'm your host, Garett Renon. So in this episode, I'm extremely excited to sit down with Brian Costello, the author of the Primordial Code, which is one of my favorite books of all time. And so in this episode, we take a behind the scenes look at the story, the characters, and some of our favorite scenes. Brian also shares how the book came together, what inspired it, and some of the deeper meanings woven throughout the story.
Garett:And, of course, as you would expect, we go deep. We talk about plant medicine, the nature of consciousness, and the kinds of experiences that can cause us to question everything we thought we knew about reality. And during the final hour, the conversation goes even deeper as we uncover some of the hidden Easter eggs within the book. Easter eggs that hint that there may be far more to Earth, space, and evolution than we've been told. This then leads us into some fascinating questions, like what role did ancient civilizations play in our history?
Garett:Are we living through the little season? Are we in the middle of a spiritual war? So whether you've read the Primordial Code or you're discovering it for the first time, this is a fascinating conversation about plant medicine, human origins, ancient civilizations, consciousness, spiritual warfare, and the true nature of the world we inhabit. Before but before we jump into the episode, I wanna take a moment to thank you all for being here. This show runs on your support.
Garett:And I don't run outside ads. I don't ask for much. So if these conversations resonate with you, there are a few simple ways you can help keep the show growing. You can subscribe. You can leave a you can leave a review.
Garett:You can share the podcast with a friend. Those are those small things really do make a difference. You can also sign up for my newsletter where I share more of my writing and ideas around plant medicine, health, spirituality, and questioning the system we were born into. And, of course, you can check out my online store. I got some great stuff on there.
Garett:The Ayahuasca University sweatshirt, which is not only an awesome sweatshirt that looks really good, it's also a great conversation starter. I also have the unplugged journal, which I created to help you become more intentional with your daily routines, rituals, and personal growth. Elysian tallow, which is a simple natural way to nourish and hydrate your skin without all the unnecessary ingredients found in most commercial skin care products. I have pine pollen, which designed to support your strength, energy, and natural vitality so you can stay strong enough to continue to fight the system. And my newest product, a magnesium spray, which is designed to become part of your nightly wind down routine and to help you relax before bed.
Garett:And with the exception of the clothing, all these products I personally created and make myself. Every and every purchase directly supports the work I'm doing and help keep and helps keep this podcast going. So you'll find the links to the store, the newsletter, and Brian's book, The Primordial Code in the show notes. So thanks again for listening, and now let's get on with the episode. So welcome to the Deeper You Go, The Weirder It Gets.
Garett:I'm your host, Garett Renon. And so I'm super excited about this guest today, Brian Costello, who's the author of, I would I'm just gonna say it's one of my favorite books that I've ever read. It's called The Primordial Code. And so, you know, thank you, Brian, for coming on. And so Brian has actually made the rounds recently on a lot of really big podcasts, which is really cool.
Garett:And so congratulations to you on that.
Brian:Thank you.
Garett:Thank you. In those podcast episodes, he talks a lot about his background and his story about who he is as a person, which is very cool, and I recommend you check those out. But for this episode, I wanna dive a little bit more into the book and kind of get a behind the scenes look of the creation process, maybe some of the characters, the ideas, and then even some Easter eggs that I found, and I wanna pick his brain on on that. So But before I get carried away, I'm going to turn it over to Brian and you can, know, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and also I would love to have a, maybe a general overview of the book.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. You know, it's funny. I actually forgot the name of your show.
Brian:The Deeper You Go, The Weirder It Gets until you just said it again. It's like perfect for today. Cause I think the deeper we go into like this book and how it all came to be, it's, it definitely gets, starts to get a little weird or just kind of crazy. And in some ways looking back a little. Like just silly the way I was thinking.
Brian:I mean, I had just believed that we would ultimately get to this point with it, but at the time it just seems sort of, a little in the clouds and silly. A very basic overview of me is I got started in the health and fitness industry right out of college. I opened a gym. I was diehard into fitness first, like physical fitness. And I pushed my limits in that realm for many years and learned very quickly that that's only part of the equation.
Brian:I was really chasing physical fitness at the expense of all the other realms of health, physical health at the expense of mental, emotional and spiritual health. Yeah, about after about ten years to twelve years of that, hit a really, really low point in my life. The wheels really came off in all realms of my health and in everything around me. And I started realizing, okay, I was very fit, but I wasn't very healthy. And in fact, I'm not even really sure I understand what health is.
Brian:And then I started rebuilding from there. And threw a few different, like outside the box kind of things along fast. I was doing a lot of sun gazing, breath work, ice baths, like quite a while ago before it was as popular. And, just kind of those were called kind of gateways to me, for me into more ancient types of healing modalities and just different ways of thinking and kind of coming to the realization that the body in itself is the highest intelligence and we have what we need within. So as I was discovering this, my whole life shifted and I started really seeing the complete picture on health and that the physical is only, I consider a quarter of it, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.
Brian:And that there's really a huge correlation I feel between physical and spiritual. That was kind of where I think kind of put my focus the most was connecting the physical because of my background and my love for just athletics and fitness and the human body. But also then now on this journey to kind of, this higher calling, like really chasing the highest version of myself. So yeah, I started getting a whole new outlook and perspective on what health meant and what it meant to chase the pursuit of becoming the highest version of yourself, most complete version of yourself, of myself, I should say, but kind of, I was always looking at it as how can I help others understand this as well? It's just in my nature of being a coach and things.
Brian:And yeah, that's so I was just down every rabbit hole that existed in these realms and learning as much as I can and experimenting, exploring and experimenting with everything and collecting a lot of knowledge and wisdom and experience ultimately led me to plant medicine, which was just like, you know, then blew the doors open even more. And eventually just started really feeling like I have so much to share here. And I know a lot of this is very unique, because it's based on my own experience and my own wisdom. And I know I'm pretty confident other people would agree with a lot of the things that I'm seeing and feeling here. It just was how do I get it to the world?
Brian:How do I share this? What's the best way to sort of like package this and share it all while I'm still on the journey myself? And I started with a coaching program, an online coaching program, a holistic lifestyle program. That was actually very good. I think it was, it was good.
Brian:It was very good. And, but it was, you know, we ran into all the challenges of trying to separate ourselves from the rest of the online coaching world and all those things. Really what it was, was it was kind of Trojan horsing spiritual development into fitness environments, you know, in the kind of gym coach client relationship, how to give them the tools to help their clients go further and deeper with everything outside of the gym, basically the most important stuff. And it was great. But what was happening was I was kept trying to have to fit all this into sort of like a fitness box, like still make it fit in that world.
Brian:And on one hand, that's what made us different. And on the other hand, it started to feel really limiting. And I was feeling a calling to do more with this. And I didn't know how. And eventually, I always had thought I would write a book, like a just typical nonfiction.
Brian:I just kind of saw in my mind, because those are the types of books I read. I always saw what I thought would be a really powerful book in that regard. Nonfiction self help kind of thing. But it didn't really excite me. It felt like something I'm going to do, but it's like a big work project.
Brian:And, you know, it's going to take years and be really challenging and probably draining. And then I'm still going to be in the same position of, well, how do I get people to read it? Which was the same kind of thing with the coaching program. Well, program is great, but how do we get people to enroll? And we did, but it was never quite enough to really turn the corner.
Brian:So eventually I had this I can't remember exactly when and where, but I remember I had read a few other fiction stories or story based books, only a few, one of every 10 books I read probably, or every 20, was fiction, But they seemed to hit a little different, and they had a different kind of impact on me. Couldn't quite explain it, but I could see that other people felt the same way about some of these books. The Celestine Prophecy, The Alchemist, The Ringing Cedars series, those stand out in people's minds. Started seeing this idea, and then I was also basically, long story short, the idea became, in my mind, started to feel exciting and fun and felt like art more than work. And then it started just like steamrolling in my, snowballing in my mind.
Brian:And the plot line started to come into place a little bit, saw a few characters, you know, had a couple of main themes I knew I would hit. I'm telling you it was a loose, loose, loose like outline, but it was enough there for me to feel confident that once I start writing, it'll come together. Eventually in early twenty twenty three, I made a big transition in my life out of that coaching business, sold it off to my partner, my wife and I and our two kids, we have three now, two at the time moved down to Costa Rica. And I started writing. I just opened the laptop and just said, Okay, here we go, know, have a general outlet.
Brian:So that's like the short version of the backstory. The synopsis of the book itself, which I think is good to just cover now, takes is, place in this fictitious land called Ocalaia. It is a land of peace and prosperity, of health and happiness. And they live within the laws of nature. They have modern technology.
Brian:They don't have secret technology or any fantasy abilities, right? It's a realistic fiction. They have modern technology, but they live within the laws of nature, and they govern themselves and conduct themselves in alignment with the universal, all knowing wisdom that lives within all of us that they refer to as the Primordial Code. So they live by this code. And they act in accordance with this code.
Brian:And everyone is on their own individual journey to unlock this code and really figure out what it even is and what it means. So they can sort of way. Now, they are seeing what's going on in the Western world, and there's this kind of back and forth of whether or not they should help. And ultimately, they decide that it is time intervene and help us the best they can and lead us, but without giving up their secrecy, without jeopardizing that which they have. So they start this sort of underground program where they bring over regular of regulars can be everyday Americans and teach them their ways and their traditions and how they do things and why.
Brian:And probably most importantly, ask them a lot of questions about how we do things back here and why, and help them realize that so much of that is they don't even know why we do the thing the way we do and how it all came to be and how our most longest held beliefs are often given to us. So it's a hard contrast. They really get their feathers ruffled, and they start to have this awakening kind of experience. And in a short period of time, have big shifts in their beliefs and their perspectives. And ultimately, the end, they have to decide if they're going to come back to this land.
Brian:They're only there for a week in the first book, they have to decide they're going to come back and commit to a more intensive training program. And really, like, pretty much shift their life into the journey of unlocking the code and living in the kind of way that it can ripple out and infect the world around them.
Garett:Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, it's super interesting because I know this was for myself and a lot of people. So I think I said, so I've read this book twice and also hosted a book club with And so I really got into this book and one of the things I noticed for myself and the people that have read it is that you felt it feels like in this book you tapped into the collective consciousness of a lot of what everybody's feeling. And it's kind of funny because there were two people in my book club who were actually like, is this book real? Like, is this a real place?
Garett:And, you know, they were kind of saying it joking, but also I was like, I don't know, you know, it feels real. Right? Mhmm. And, you know, there's this idea that it feels like in today's society that humanity in the world is at this precipice we are kind of on this edge of, like if we don't get our act together, this whole thing may come crumbling down and and many of us have felt that like there is a better way to live. And not only is there a better way to live, but when you start looking into deeper aspects of how we currently live, it sure feels like there is a system that's been put in place to hold us back, right?
Garett:To make us sick, weak, docile, and consumers. Yeah, and disconnected from the natural world, so I think this is you really kind of nailed that feeling in this book, which is really cool.
Brian:Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And you know, it feels real.
Brian:And I think like people said, they might have been half joking, but I've had several people say similar things about whether or not it actually exists or actually real. I think it feels that way because I think it like this sounds sort of cliche or corny maybe, but I think O Caballa does exist in all of our hearts already. Basically anyone who's paying attention at all to anything going on around them in the world is pretty much at a point where they can look around and say, This ain't it. Something's not right here. Something just like we can feel.
Brian:You mentioned the boy harmony, like something's in harmony or it's out of harmony. If you're listening to an orchestra, that's just a little bit out of harmony, you know it right away. You don't need to be a trained musician. Same thing with this. We're looking at just the way the world is interacting and working together and feeling like it's clearly not working together.
Brian:There's just this disharmony everywhere. Now, very few people really at all spend a lot of time pondering what the opposite would look like, really wondering and creating an image in their mind, which is fine. Don't expect everybody to do that. So but like I have, right? I just like just into this, this is where my mind goes when it's when it's still right.
Brian:And I'm always just kind of thinking creating, like, I've just, it's been a, it's just this whole thing is just like a thought prompt, right? Like that's just I've been stuck sticking with for a long time of like, well, what would it look like and how would it work? But the thing is when people hear it, they're just like, oh yeah, duh. Like, I, it's like, you know, I think you probably know when you hear things sometimes that ring true. It's like, oh, I already knew this.
Brian:You're just helping me like, like make more sense of it. And I think when people see and hear, oh, goodbye, they're just like, oh yeah, like, yeah, this just makes sense. Like we could have this. And that's why I really, so that that's one part of the answer. The other thing is that's why I really stuck to these parameters of it has to be realistic, has to be right now, it's not the distant future or the past, or some alternative timeline.
Brian:They don't have these secret abilities or special technology kind of stuff. Because I want people to really see it, feel it and see the only difference is how they behave. The only difference is how they act basically. And all of that is a decision that we could, like, you could theoretically just like start tomorrow, you know? Like, so I wanted people to feel like, wow, this makes sense.
Brian:Wow. This could, could be, and wow, I, I could, like, I want to start, like, show me what, like, where do we do first? Let's do this. So yeah, that was like what I was envisioning in my mind the whole time.
Garett:Yeah, that's cool. And it feels like this book was written at the perfect time too. And I think this is also why it it feels real because there's a lot of us who are on this journey of awakening. You know, we're kind of waking up and just like you said, that this world feels off and it could be so much better with just Mhmm. Simple decisions.
Garett:And I kind of lost my train of thought on that. But it's I don't know. I can't remember what I was gonna say.
Brian:I think so. I I I said something that actually triggered a little thought for me there, about going through this awake or the perfect timing of the book. And it's like going through this. So many people are in this state of like, kind of awakening and, and things. Yeah, so I have this belief when it comes to creation that anyone who's created anything, no matter big, small, whatever it is, whether it's about sort of like, you know, changing the world or not, like, there's this feeling that comes inside that you hit a point where you're just like, I have to make this.
Brian:I don't know why, but like, I just have to. Like, it might not make logical sense. I might not be able to explain it on paper, but I just have a feeling that I just have to do this for my own sake, my own process, my own human journey. I think that there's both a push and pull of that, if you will, where it's like, you're feeling that from within, but I also feel that it's also the universe pulling it out of you as well. There's some people out there that need it, whether they know it or not either.
Brian:I'm not trying to say there was people sitting around saying, Man, I really wish there was a book about a secret society that lived different than we They don't know that they're not sitting around saying that, but within a lot of common feedback when they read it was like, this is the book I've been waiting for. Like, this is what I just it's like, it was written for me, right? Like, and so when we're in that process, so that that timing, that part of the reason it was getting so strong for me, because to the point where I was feeling I, sold my business, sold our belongings, basically left the world we know behind to go travel, go to a different country and focus on writing. And just put myself into this knowing it was going be several year process before it was done and then so forth. I did all that because it just the pull was so strong.
Brian:And I knew it wasn't just for me. I knew it was coming from the world around me. So that's just my belief on it. I mean, I can't prove it, but that's just how it feels to me.
Garett:No, I agree and I think that's why, you know, I was saying at the beginning that it really feels like you tapped into some sort of collective consciousness, right? And there's always this idea of like, where do any of our ideas come from in the first place and that's why certain stories like The Matrix or maybe even Star Wars or certain things that these are fictional stories, but they have these principles that feel very real because we're tapping into something bigger than ourselves. And one of the things that I really noticed when I was reading the book is, as you know, I'm really big into plant medicine and I got a very similar fee feeling reading your book that I'm kind of feeling through the plant medicine world of the plants consciousness has always been there, but it feels like recently that has really come online and it's really starting to us humans wake up because this plant consciousness, this plant intelligence is, if you've experienced it, is extremely smart. And Mhmm. We kind of live in this symbiotic relationship with them because we are we are part of the earth just like they are.
Garett:And I think that they are coming online and waking us up and exploding out there to be like, if we don't wake these crazy monkeys up, they are going to burn the whole thing down. So yeah, you know, I'm not that kind of
Brian:I don't laugh because it's funny. I laugh because it's true. I'm just like, you know, it's, it's 100%. I agree with that 100%. It's like the volume is being turned up on their messages and their signals.
Brian:Because we're not we haven't been listening for a long time.
Garett:Yeah. Because I've been I've been involved in kind of been aware of plant medicine for almost fifteen years and working with it for ten. But I mean, in those fifteen years when it first popped up on my radar screen till now, the amount of people that have done it, the the amount of people that talk about it, how much it's grown in that short amount of time and, you know, you talked about in the book that the people of Oklaubaya felt the exact same way, Yes.
Brian:That's exactly what I was going to say. It's like a feeling we have to help, we have to do something, we have to turn up the intensity on our, on our, yeah, what we're doing, what we're giving to before it's too late, right? It's like, we're at this point in history where there's this feeling of urgency. There's this feeling of things that like this that are important have to be done now, or we might not have a chance to do them. Right?
Brian:There's kind of like this before it's too late sort of feeling in the world. And yeah, as you were talking about the plants, was exactly what I was thinking about is like, that's was what the people of Volkabla are feeling. I was on another show the other day and I said that. I said I think the plants are trying to find us because they were talking about the rapid growth of medicine work. They were kind of looking at the downsides of it that some people just jump into it because it's like a trend or whatever that's taking over.
Brian:I kind of pushed back a little bit. And I was like, yes, yeah, maybe some people do that. But I think in most cases, it's the plants trying to find their way to us. Because and like quickly because of the seriousness of the situation. And, yeah, I firmly firmly believe that.
Garett:Yeah, I agree. And so one of the things I wanted to ask you, so when you were kind of giving the overview of the book, and you were talking about the actual Primordial Code, and that a lot of people that their goal in this book is to kind of unlock that Primordial Code within themselves. So how would you define or what is the Primordial Code?
Brian:Yeah, so I don't there's not like a definition, right? And if you I'm sure you remember, but not all the listeners have read it yet, but there's this there's this conversation between Garett, the character Garett, and Alacoa, his mentor, about what it is and how it's not something that's written down. It's not etched in stone. It's not this thing that can be learned and memorized necessarily. It's this, like I've said before, kind of this all knowing, all encompassing, universal, infinite intelligence that runs through all of us.
Brian:And it's like these universal feelings that we have. And he talks about the differences in different religions and things, how so many religions hate each other. But then if you really look at it, a lot of the foundational principles are the same, right? It's like love, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, these things. Because really, when you whittle it down, you take away all the stories, like, those are the things that we are all attuned to, we are all attuned to these sort of things.
Brian:For most people, it's not difficult to not to live peacefully and not go around killing people. Like, right? Like, it's we're tuned much more to peace and kindness. But so it's like this thing that is so clear and obvious that it's in all of us, yet is not able to necessarily be pinpointed and defined. Now, if I was going to put it more in common terms, where people talk about religion and God and these sort of things, it's like, is the Primordial Code supposed to be God?
Brian:And my answer to that would be not necessarily. It's not so much about where it comes from as much as just like what it is, what is true. And I think that's an important point because using that religion analogy and how so many religions, there's all these kind of bigger religions and most of them don't get along, or think that we're the ones that are right and everybody else is wrong. So much of that is because of the differences in what they believe regarding where it comes from, and what and who God is and how it got here. And then, like I said, it's sort of overlooking the fact that we're saying mostly the same things.
Brian:We're getting caught up in the story around it instead. So the intention of this book and to focus on of the Primordial Code is to focus on less about where it comes from and who gave it to us exactly and how that works, how we get this information from this other source. And more about just plain and simple, what is it saying, what is it telling us, how is it guiding us. Now, doesn't mean that there's not this other half of the journey where each in our own individual path are connecting to that source and trying to sort of channel in the code more clearly. But that process is really like we're each free as individuals to refine that process and practice in a way that feels natural for us.
Brian:We each have our own individual relationship with that God and creator that's going to look different from the other. But ultimately, it's about tapping into it and getting more clear on this code that's running, kind of opening the channels for this code to run through more clearly. That's like sorry, did you want to say something there?
Garett:Well, I was just going to say, so yeah, so, you know, thank you for that. And so the Primordial Code, you know, based on what you said and kind of my interpretation of it is it's like this optimal way to to live and kind of being in in harmony with with nature and, you know, that's how the the people and then also in harmony with yourself and unlocking your gifts. It's an individual journey. But there was an opposite code that was talked about in the book, the the empirical code and that also not only does for myself and people who have read the book, when when they hear about the Primordial Code or certain aspects of it, it really resonates, but so does this idea of the empirical code. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that.
Garett:And then also maybe why why this empirical code exists.
Brian:Yeah, so good question. I want to hit one other point though first and actually ties in together.
Garett:Okay.
Brian:So the one thing I wanted to say is with the code, and they mentioned this a few times in the story, but this is something I just I try to remember in my own personal life and when I talk to others about too, this idea of honoring the mystery, right? And being able to say, I don't know exactly where this comes from, and I don't know exactly how it all works. But here's the things that are still true to me no matter what. Here are my deepest fundamental truths. That honoring the mystery, that's something we don't see too often in these kind of bigger, mean religions.
Brian:It's like, Nope, this is how it happened. This is why it happened. This is how it works. Here are the steps, follow these, and you'll get to heaven or whatever, you know. And they've sort of taken that out of it, right?
Brian:That's been removed from most of these. And that kind of segues really nicely into this empirical code, because I think that that is an example of modern sort of empirical programming, which I'll explain in a minute. But like the idea of feeling like being able to say, I don't know, or we're not sure is such a hard thing for anyone to say in our society. And any sort of if you're an authority and you also don't know, just doesn't work in our world. Whereas authority knows.
Brian:Authority has the answers. So if you're the authority, you let anyone see sweat sort of thing. You can't even have an opening for a discussion about something you might possibly not know or understand. You know, that's, that's, I think that that's a huge issue that we're like running into in this world in general, that no one has the ability to say, either we don't know, or we were wrong, or like, you know, we just this is how like, we're just kind of bowing to the mystery. Bowing to that, the think with the Lakota, where like the Wancanthunka, right?
Brian:Or however they say, like the great mystery. But then yeah, so the empirical code, empirical narrative. So there's no real villain in the story. The story breaks a lot of kind of literary rules, mostly because I don't know them and I wasn't a writer. But one of them is like, there's no real villain in the story, but this empirical code kind of takes on that role of the villain sort of.
Brian:And the empirical code is, instead of the Primordial Code, the all knowing universal truths that run through all of us, the empirical codes are these kind of thoughts, beliefs, sort of everybody knows that everybody knows kind of things that sort of run through all of us as well, but were planted there either intentionally or not, but mostly intentionally, in order to keep us basically smaller and disconnected from ourselves and from each other, and ultimately keep us in service to empire. Keep the system alive, so to speak. Keep the matrix intact. So these two codes are opposite of each other, and we're trying to tap in. In the story, they're learning how to tap in and learning how to find this code.
Brian:But then there's these lines of empirical code that are blocking off the transmission. They're cutting through, but what about this? But what about that? But what about this? And it's really just another word for the brainwashing, the programming, the conditioning.
Brian:It's like all of these things that people that I'm sure probably anyone listening to this show or most people that pick up my book already are familiar with. But it puts a little bit of a, it kind of just puts a term on it and allows us to just talk about it a little bit more clearly than just being like, everyone's brainwashed, you know? So it's like, there's a lot of opportunities in the story for them to have these conversations. Well, where did you learn that? Where did that belief come from?
Brian:And they kind of reverse engineer and realize it was something that was basically planted in them before they had any discernment or reached any age of discernment where they could decide whether or not that was true for That planting isn't always from evil empire. That's oftentimes from our parents, our teachers, people around us who had planted in them, who came from their parents and teachers and so forth. 99% of the people aren't doing something wrong. Necessarily, they're just doing what everybody else does and what they've always been told in the way it's always been.
Garett:Yeah, and you know, one of the ultimate questions and you know, you talked about that there's no real villain other than the empirical code and which is a pretty big villain. And, you know, the the question and and maybe you don't know or maybe this will be something in in possibly a future book, but I am always wondering because we all feel the empirical code in our in our real lives. Like, that's another one that hit you know, you hit the nail on the head with that. And it's like, why does this exist and is it purposeful or is it just a random occurrence of human folly? But you know, the book did a good great job of doing this, but just showing like how much of what we're taught from the second we are born and what's programmed into us is really disconnects us from nature and this path to be free, sovereign human beings that are powerful.
Garett:And so it feels like that if you look deeper into this, you know, the the deeper you go, the weirder it gets. It's like sometimes it feels like that there is sinister energies behind these ideas of empirical code, and I don't know what your thoughts are on that.
Brian:Yeah, I'm in the belief that there is. I think it's very few people. But if they're in the right places with the right sort of power in the right power structures, in a lot of ways, I think these power structures are designed by them and things. I do think it's hard for me to get around the idea that what we're experiencing in our world right now is just like, Hey, everyone out there is good people just trying their best, but we just ended up here because a couple of misunderstandings, a couple of wrong terms. I don't think that that really would be possible.
Brian:I think that a lot of these narratives, again, are intentional. And can't necessarily say who I mean, listen, I mean, I have theories. I watched a lot of the same conspiracy theory videos, lot of other people watch and stuff, you know, there's bloodlines and families and things like, I'm not going pretend I know that any of that's true. I'm just looking at it again and saying like, it's hard to imagine us getting here without people trying to put us here. Especially seeing how they benefit from it.
Brian:Like, I mean, if you look at the, I don't like to use the word elite because it like puts them in this positive light, but ultra, ultra wealthy kind of rule the world sort of families, the way they benefit at our expense and kind of follow the trail of breadcrumbs, seems pretty intentional to me. And there's that one scene where Garett and Aloko are talking, and he basically says to him, what are the chances that there's energy of light in the world, there's energy of dark. And the darkness wants to be expressed fully just the same way the light does. And it's going to find it's the way the light finds the people who are, working towards it, light finds more light, the dark is going to find more dark. And it's going to find the people who are open to it and get through them, it's going to sort of influence them into doing more of these darker things, and it kind of expands and expands and expands.
Brian:And he talks about the power structures that we have. Like, what are the chances that all these people at the top, like that the darkness is not doing everything they can to get to the top of these power structures. And it's like zero or whatever. It's a 100% sure that that's the case. Right.
Brian:And it's like, well, do you think they're all just like unaffected by it? You know, no, of course. Like these are humans. Right. And if the darkness is doing everything they can to try to get through to you, through you and work through you, Unless you really know what you're doing to combat that, it's going to be difficult.
Brian:Right. And then they have like a pretty big scene. That's a pretty big moment in Steam where Garett kind of has this realization of like, the sort of spiritual war is a real thing. The sort of light versus dark, the thing that's the theme of every story that's ever been told from the beginning of time is not just a coincidence because it's fun to tell stories about that. It's like that theme, that story is at play and going on around us at all times.
Garett:Yeah. In fact, scene, you know, there's a lot of my favorite scenes in the book, but that was up there with one of the favorite because of that conversation of, you know, how Garett was kind of the the what what is the word I'm looking for? Just just unaware and Mhmm. And not believing that there could be this spiritual war, there could be this that evil exist or it would it would operate at the highest levels. The way you kinda walked him or the way Alacola walked him through that was super fascinating to show like, is that how easily it could manifest its way up into the highest realms of society.
Brian:Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. It's actually really commonly shared with me that that's one of the favorite scenes. I've seen people post Instagram stories where it's highlighted and stuff. And the kind of fun fact is that I didn't love the scene at first.
Brian:I felt like I kept going back to it. I kept trying to rewrite it. I mean, I tinkered with it endlessly. And ultimately in the end, I felt like I was settling on it a little bit. And I guess not.
Brian:It seems like it wasn't the case. I mean, I guess I got to a point where I'm like, I guess this is how it's supposed to be. Couldn't, I just felt like something wasn't quite right, but I couldn't see what was better. And I ultimately just, I wouldn't say settled on it, I guess just accepted that that was the way it was supposed to be. I'm glad that it's landing
Garett:for people. Yeah, that's funny. Interesting things about the creative process, right? Because, yeah, I mean, from my standpoint is it's felt like you you nailed that kind of interaction. And and not only did you nail it, but also the the skepticism from from Garett's standpoint, which is like, it felt like a real conversation of how someone whose experiences would be trying to tell someone.
Garett:So
Brian:Yeah.
Garett:And, you know, also this talking about the the system in a related scene that I really enjoyed the education scene with Sandra. And I actually really enjoyed Sandra's character, not from a fact that I liked her because I actually didn't like her, but it was because you you kinda nailed this like archetype of the very, I only believe in science and I'm very I'm very much more smarter than you because I've got all my degrees and facts are the only thing that matter. And so it was really nice to see her worldview kind of come crumbling down. The the sis the the scene at with the schooling at the school was really awesome, and that kind of shows a deeper layer of how powerful this empirical code is when Yeah. Basically was it is she talking to Pono?
Garett:Yeah. And Pono was saying that the real message or the real purpose behind our modern schooling is not to teach you anything, it's not to teach you how to think critically, it's actually to get you in line with the Monday through Friday is not yours. And you you work for five days and you have two days off and you are kind of a slave to the nine to five system. So I
Brian:think that
Garett:that was another scene that was very good in showing just the sinister aspects of the empirical code.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. That was to me, that scene was like, alright. If they get to this point, after this scene, they're either going to be in for the rest of the book or they're out, I think, you know, because it was pretty radical and direct and, you know, I didn't hold back. Fun little fact, I don't know if I told you this on our previous conversations, I may have.
Brian:I wrote the first two chapters and released them before I wrote the rest of the story. So, and I released them on audio. I didn't have a huge following or anything, I wanted to get some feedback. I wanted to see if this was a thing that I should continue. Of course I really wanted to, but like, I just felt like I'll write these two chapters.
Brian:I'll put them out. I'll see, get my finger on the pulse to see if I should really continue committing so much time and energy to this. And, ultimately I got a, not a ton of people, but enough people that I was close to and really respected their opinions were like, like, keep going, please. But I made sure the first two chapters incorporated some key points and some radical viewpoints to really show people what this story is going to be all about. And I, and I knew that that scene needs to be in there.
Brian:I knew that the schooling and again, like how it's really just like, it's not about what they're learning in the textbooks. That's a problem too. But like, it's literally, they just, you're being like, just ushered along into filed into the system, right from that age, before you have any idea of the signal, why do we do it this way? Right. A five year old wouldn't even consider asking that.
Brian:And it's like, yeah, Monday through Friday is not yours. The people above the people who are above you are, are they enforcing rules that they don't make that they're coming from above them. Right. And there's like, these people up the line, it's like authority, like you don't know them, but they're, they're up there and there's supposedly have your best interests in mind. And you just kind of do what they say.
Brian:And, you know, like all this stuff that makes it easy, all the stuff that's, that we're doing as adults. The reason it doesn't seem that it doesn't seem so, crazy is because we've been doing it since we were five years old. If you started implementing these things when you graduated high school, and they're like, Now you have to go do all these things every day. From this time to this time, you get almost no time off, and you get no time to move, blah, blah, People are like, what? This is crazy.
Brian:But because you've been doing it since you were five, it's normalized. It's all it really is. And I don't think I said this in the book, but say it often is the darkness is always it's just normal, like, it's just normalizing things, right? Like, that didn't come out the way I wanted to say it, but like, on TV, in movies, music, it's just normalizing these lower vibrational things. So it's normalizing the idea that we are not full, complete, intelligent human beings, or that there's other people who are above us.
Brian:It's just normalizing things. That's all it's doing. And it's a slow, gradual thing that gets so strong that it's hard to break it. You need stories like this, and the stories have to be so radical. They have to see it through this lens, it has to be so literal in order to kind of snap out of that hypnosis.
Garett:Yeah. And it's fascinating that when you realize that our modern school system was based off of the Rockefellers which is one of those family that you were alluding to and there's a real quote that you can look up and he says, I don't need a nation of thinkers, I need a nation of workers. And that our schooling system, like this is a 100% real and you know you're talking about this in the book, but it's literally built to make us slaves to the system and not to teach you how to think critically, which is just absolutely mind blowing when you think about that, right?
Brian:So distorted. It's hard to even wrap our minds around that that's being done intentionally and that it's working. Everybody just goes along with
Garett:it. Right, and nobody questions and even though we all feel that there could probably be a better way, you know, I don't have kids, but I still follow a lot of the the education system things because it's super fascinating and, you know, you hear of people graduating high school and they don't know, they don't have any skills. They don't know how to change a tire, they
Brian:don't know
Garett:how to plant a seed, they can't cook, they can't Right. They don't know how to build a house, they don't in any of these skills, they don't know how to think for themselves and it's it's wild, like it's a complete failure of a system, but yet we just continue to do it. And before I turn it over to you, I just wanna say that, you know, because that because you alluded to this that it's a hierarchy that, you know, there are a lot of people that are teachers and they're just doing their best. You you know, it's not your fault.
Brian:Yeah.
Garett:You know, my mom was a teacher and you're just teaching what you were taught. Exactly. And so, but at some point, we need to be like enough is enough that we need to Mhmm. Break this pattern and this habit and not just do it because this is what the way I my mom did it and this is the way her mom did it and so on. And we'd have to break the generational trauma, so to speak.
Brian:Exactly. Yeah, enough, I love that enough is enough. It's just again, kind of like I think where we're at world right now in this collective. I was going to say something quick about Sandra's character too, because I wanted her to be this person that was kind of like the product of this system, and had all the boxes checked. She sort of succeeded as best you can through this system and still show how disconnected she was from these other types of intelligence.
Brian:She's as smart as can be academically, But even just right in the opening scene, says like, Oh, I don't let my emotions interfere with my decisions. I'm trained not to do that. I'm only using logic and reason. So it's kind of showing, sure, you've gone through this and you've succeeded, but like, at what cost? What have you had to sacrifice along the way?
Brian:What have you been told is not useful? And just to back again, to talk about breaking literary rules, nobody really likes Sandra at first in beginning of the story. Because she sort of represents, for people who have picked up the book so far, most people at this stage have already kind of been on this awakening path a little bit and stuff, right? And Sandra really represents so much of what many of us like stand against, right? Like, trust the science, she's an atheist, she's like, big academic, everything's about the authorities and coming down and certifications.
Brian:And yeah, I, I had some people be really honest and upfront with me at first to the point where I'm like, was this a big mistake? Like, I'm sure most would tell me rule number one is don't make a main character that the people don't like. The whole point of main characters, you're supposed to, you're supposed to like fall in love with them and, and root for them. But I felt it was important because I wanted to show that arc and that transformation. And I wanted to show how I think by the end, most people come around on her.
Brian:So I wanted to show that. And I also wanted to show that like a big theme, it's like, maybe not quite as obvious, but she says at the beginning, she's like, you know, I'm woke and stuff, right? And like, I can imagine readers like, Oh, man, here we go, this girl's gonna get it, right? And she kind of does. She gets she does for the most part.
Brian:But they also it emphasizes that she still, like, she still has a big heart, like she's still and a lot of like, sort of the bleeding heart liberal kind of crowd, much as many of us like to point at them as like, these people are crazy, like, or whatever. Most of them believe what they believe and are doing what they're doing because they think it's what's best. And at the end of the day, in many cases, it's coming from the heart. There's been so many empirical narratives layered over the top of it that it just shows it crystallizes in a different kind of form. But I wanted to show that, too.
Brian:I wanted to show that just about everybody out there, their beliefs in some way or another, they think that they believe what's right and what's best. And so, yeah, so she was kind of a risk. But I'm glad I took it.
Garett:Yeah, yeah, no, it was awesome. And just to emphasize that point of, you know, she did still have a kind heart and she was doing what she thought was the best, which always makes me think of one of my favorite quotes of the idea that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. And I think she kind of embodied that were, you know and she was a product of the system, like you said, and and a successful product of the system. And one more scene that I wanna talk about and then I do need to get into those Easter eggs. Don't know how much
Brian:time Yeah, sure. I'm good on time. Yeah.
Garett:But because this just kind of embodied her and that whole narrative when she was drinking cacao with Pono. Mhmm. And and Pono was kind of saying that this is very hard opening and whatever other benefits she was saying and and Sandra was like, that's really cool. Do you have any studies on to show that this is actually opening your heart. It's kinda like the not everything can be quantified by science and Mhmm.
Garett:You know, that's a that's a big thing I think a lot of people today still suffer from and and especially in in the plant medicine world that people have their hard time wrapping their minds around something that can't be proven or plotted on a graph. And Mhmm. When you realize that, you know, it's nice when the science can prove something, but science is such a small lane in this bigger world And we live so I really enjoyed that narrative.
Brian:Yeah, I had fun with that one too. It became, I think, of all the themes of the story, whole Sandra and Pono, and the listeners that don't know, Pono is her mentor who's like super spiritual, she gets mad, they get up, super science and super spiritual get matched up right off the bat. And they kind of clash, right? Like they're nice to each other, but they're not really meshing well. And that became a really important theme for me.
Brian:I mean, that's mainly why I created her character, to emphasize that theme. But showing the hard contrast between someone who's so science minded and so closed off to spirit, showing kind of have this tug of war going on, can they coexist? Can they find a way? Is there room for both? Are they two sides of the same coin sort of thing?
Brian:Like, is it like an ongoing conversation as the story goes on? And to me, that was just I, for sure, needed in the story because I get frustrated sometimes in this world with when people are just like, Well, what does the science say? What does this say? Or they're just getting really hung up on like the Andrew Huberman podcast, all these things are like so, so science And I'm like, you could have just walked outside into the sun and figure that out yourself. Or like, you could just feel things and just know I felt it.
Brian:I experienced it. I saw it with my eyes. I felt it with my body. And to me, it's true. I'm trying to encourage people to shift back to that direction, as opposed to getting more and more science based.
Brian:Not that science doesn't have a place, it can't be helpful. Like you were saying, it's nice when it backs things up, but I'm not waiting around on that to tell me what's true and what's not.
Garett:Right, and you know, have two minds, we have the logical mind and we have the heart intuition mind and kind of the masculine feminine mind and in our current society, we are way too most people are completely out of balance and we are way too stuck in our logical mind and trying to make logical sense of everything and I see this in plant medicine ceremonies all the time. But the true knowledge, the plants, they speak to you, not all they very rarely speak logically. It more becomes from this fencing and heart intuition center. And so that's been a big journey of my own is is trying to put myself more in balance because I was completely out of balance. And I probably still am, but I'm making progress of opening up my intuition and connecting into that that spirit and the just but you said not waiting for science.
Garett:And also when you realize that science is so compartmentalized, like it you know, the the biggest problem I have and obviously science is certain aspects. Right? We're we're talking right now because of science, but
Brian:Yes.
Garett:It's so compartmentalized that that it doesn't take the whole the whole picture, the whole you know, there there's a big thing I've been kind of looking at recently that's popped up on my radar screen is this idea of Yep. Individual vitamins versus like whole foods. Right? And like this idea of vitamin c being ascorbic acid, which is derived from pretty nasty ways when you look into it. And not saying that vitamin c is not good for you, but something that it doesn't exist in nature.
Garett:You can't just go pick freshly grown vitamin C, but you can go pick a freshly grown orange.
Brian:Yes. A 100%. I cringe when I hear people say, Oh, go get some sun. It's good for vitamin D. And I'm like, Oh, yes.
Brian:But the sun literally powers every living organism on earth. Like there's more to it than just vitamin D, like, where they're taking the spirit out of it and replacing it with, with science. Yeah, it's a perfect example of vitamin C as well. Yeah, it's so yeah, again, it just hit it home. That was just such an important theme for me.
Brian:And I really hope readers finish the book with if something's going to shift inside. I hope that's one of the things that shifts for sure.
Garett:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, could, you know, I could geek out on a lot of scenes, but I want to, wanna get into some of these more fringe and deeper topics that I kinda noticed in the book. And so I I call these Easter eggs and you touched on a few fringe topics. One of them being 09:11, the other one being shots. I don't even know if you can say the other word and not get banned on YouTube that shows you how crazy that is.
Garett:But
Brian:Okay. Yep.
Garett:But I don't know if you can or not, but I think everyone knows when we're talking about the shots. And then Mhmm. Spiritual warfare, which we kinda talked about, but then there were two other, you know, deeper, more fringe things that were put in there very subtly and, you know, since this is podcast is called The Deeper You Go, The Weirder It Gets. Wanna go into these deep topics and so Sure. I call these like the two big Easter eggs and and that they evolve around kind of what I would say is Earth and space and where we live and then also evolution.
Garett:And so I don't know the the best way to do this, but I guess I can, I'll just kind of go tell you some of the Easter eggs I found and you can kind of tell me if I'm correct or just a crazy conspiracy theorist who's making connections that don't really exist.
Brian:So before you do that, I'll just say something quick first. Are, So yes, I haven't said that we talked about on your book club call, which is a small group, but I haven't said this on any podcast. I haven't said it to the club O'Cabo community, which is people have read and finished the book. I've been kind of waiting for like, and how to say it, but also maybe like, maybe I don't say it because it was supposed to be sort of secretive, but essentially like the story is encrypted in a lot of ways with these sort of subtle underlying messages that aren't as obvious as what they're actually talking about. So I will say that yes, for sure, there are these these Easter eggs, are these little encryptions, there are these hints.
Brian:And a lot of that was to a lot of it is like sort of subliminal foreshadowing for the for the next book, and books. And a lot of it is, stuff that, yeah, despite the fact that this book goes into a lot of deep topics, there were certain things that I felt weren't still weren't really appropriate for book one. And again, I don't know, sometimes do I want people to know that or do I want people to then go and of sniff around and try to find them? And to me, it's fine. I've kind of come to the conclusion that, yeah, think it's good to know that there's, there's an extra layer there for people to find.
Brian:I will say I'm having, I can't wait to hear what you have here. I'd be shocked if anyone could like really identify all of them, because some of them are really subtle. Some word choices and things in certain parts are very subtle. But I think that was what makes it fun. I like that kind of stuff.
Brian:I always enjoy when I read about like movies or stuff where the director like slips in these things or whatever, it's always been fun to me. That was part of it too.
Garett:Think I covered a lot of them. But yeah, I'm sure there are a few that slipped by me. And you'll fir so first I'll say that, you know, around around Earth, well, one, these are these are very fringe topics. And I feel like these are topics, well, one, where we may not necessarily know the answer, but these this is these are topics that the empirical code is extremely high.
Brian:Mhmm.
Garett:And just talking about these from a curiosity standpoint because I think that's probably where we both are is like we don't know, we're just kind of questioning our existence Right. Because when you when you go down the rabbit hole and everything, you uncover lie after lie after lie, you start to wonder what else is going on and where where do the lies start. So I've noticed that the empirical code on these subjects is extremely high and just coming from it from a very curious standpoint triggers people very quickly.
Brian:Yes. And I think that's a hint, a first sign that you should keep going is that is when just being curious around a topic isn't allowed. When you can get canceled or people like lose friends over just being curious and asking hard questions and people get so upset by it. Like, that's that's a sign to keep going, not a sign to shy away as far as I'm concerned.
Garett:Yeah. Agreed. So when it comes to to the earth, we're kind of you're kind of hinting at this idea that the planet is not what we're told it is and maybe the entire setup and you know you have Easter eggs on this around that involves Nazis, the moon, questioning gravity, and even questioning our own eyesight and kinda what we see and feel. And so I have some written down here and I think I'll go in kind of the order of Sure. Of what I found and maybe the the least to to best, I guess.
Garett:The first one, which was the obvious one was, you know, there was a talk about the moon landing and this was actually covered quite a bit in the book and there were a lot of arguments being made, but I think I know where you stand based on the book, but what are your thoughts on the moon landing?
Brian:Yeah, so the moon landing is story. Like the discussion around the moon landing is like right there, front center in the story. And I thought it was important to put that there as like, because it's actually, I think it's at the point where it's not that as risky. Right? Like at this point, everyone knows that it's something that a lot of people question.
Brian:And of course there's still people that are just like, no, why are they going to do that? They would never do that. Right. But I think most people are starting to be like, yeah, I don't know. Something seems a little fishy about this and you know, just what everyone's like, I don't know.
Brian:I saw a couple of Instagram videos. I saw a YouTube thing or whatever. That just kind of made sense. Like, they're at least at that place of like, they're open to like hearing more. You know, even just like with Feet and files and things like people are like coming out really, like people were getting lied to all the time.
Brian:It's not like, so, so yeah, I mean, I put that in there as like a, to me, it's almost like a given at this point. Like, yes, I don't, I do not believe we landed on the moon. And I thought that that was a good place to put that a good way to like start the conversation, at least like in the actual story. It's not like, you know, hidden as much, But, you know, I leave it open for a reason for both that nineeleven is in the same chapter, have these in this class, they have these conversations. And in both cases, you know, I made the class the teacher teaches it with the Socratic method.
Brian:So she only asks questions. So it's just asking questions. If that's where it leads you, that's where it leads you. I tried not to make any definitive points at the end that were like, see, we proved that this and this and this. It's not the nature of the book anyway, but it's just also like, hey, there's all these little seeds here, there's these questions, it's for you to sit back, think about, and then, the old internet can take you the rest of the way if you want it.
Brian:But no, I don't believe we've landed on the road.
Garett:Me neither. And actually, I love that Socratic method by the way, I think that was I think I'd heard about it before, but I never really knew what it was and that was actually I actually wanna get better at learning how to do that because both with the nine eleven and and the moon landing, it was interesting how just using that Socratic method, how you can really start to unlock someone's ideas of questioning the reality. So that was actually really impressive.
Brian:Thanks. Yeah, that clicked for me when I couldn't see. I wanted to have that scene and that whole scenario, I couldn't see it for a while. Then when it clicked for me in that way, was like, Okay, this is the way to do it. Because people also, they're much more open when they're coming up with the answers themselves.
Brian:If you're sitting there saying, this is what happened, this is fake, this didn't happen, that happened, and you're telling people, you've probably seen this even in other places too, medicine space or healing stuff, people, when they arrive at answers themselves, it lands better, it sticks different than you saying, Oh, this is what's wrong with you, or This is what you're doing wrong, or This is what's happening. So it's similar here, when we arrive there on our own, the shifting internally is more strong I believe.
Garett:Yeah, for sure, it just makes me laugh because in the medicine space I call them no shit Sherlock insights a lot and and it's that exact same thing because somebody will come out of ceremony and they'll be like, oh my god, I should be eating healthier. Like, oh my god. And you're like, yeah, no shit. Right? I've been telling you that but like Yeah.
Garett:But it it hits them in this way of like, oh my God, I understand it now. So
Brian:Yes. Yeah, that's perfect.
Garett:But yeah, anyway, so that's why yeah, that's why moon landing was number one because that was a pretty obvious one.
Brian:Yep.
Garett:But then you mentioned operation paper clip, which is a super interesting thing that I don't know if, many people know about, which do you want to talk about what that is?
Brian:Sure. Yeah, that's another one. I think I didn't have it. I took it out ahead of it. Like, I think originally he just said like secret operations.
Brian:And then I was like, nah, I want to leave a little bit more. And, and just to like clarify too, again, yeah, these are little Easter eggs. Someone's like Operation Paperclip. I never heard of that. Like, let me go look it up.
Brian:That to me, that would be the goal, right? If someone be like, I never heard like, let me go check it out. Because again, I don't have to go write all about it, I have to put it in the book, it's just there. In fact, I'm not even sure if I remember specifically. So like there's several of these types of things.
Brian:There was one or two others. That's right. I was going to, I had a few listed and then I like took them all out and then I like, oh, let me just put one in, you know? But yeah, so from what I understand, if I'm remembering correctly even is yeah. When basically The United States, I guess, like imported, whatever the word would be, a lot of Nazi scientists after World War II, people that should have been in jail and serving for, you know, heinous war crimes, basically we're like, oh, come on over here and you guys are going to be the CIA and you're going to be NASA and you're going run our country basically.
Brian:It's like, you know, the very short summary of it. Yeah.
Garett:Right. That's exactly what it is, which is just one of those things where you're just like, what? You Wait, what? Exactly. This actually leads into the next Easter egg, but you start to realize you're like, NASA or space agency was basically ran by Nazis who, and obviously, you know, the Nazis are are bad people, but we've been told that they're these people and that they should be in jail.
Garett:And then for whatever reason, we bring them over to our country and we put them in charge of some of our government agencies like the CIA and just like, what kind
Brian:of crazy The most powerful ones, the ones that really run the you know, the ones that really run the country.
Garett:Yeah. Like what kind of crazy world are we living in? And so so that kind of leads into the this is a much, but now we start getting deeper, deeper Easter eggs. So you have, doctor Siri, talking to Sandra and he's telling her about I don't remember exactly how it all came out, but he's telling her about how the founder of NASA had a Bible verse on his gravestone, and it was Psalms nineteen one. And I think you kinda left it at that.
Garett:And I know more about this, but I'm curious. So what is Psalms nineteen:one? Well, guess I should say maybe that Well, go ahead.
Brian:Yeah. So yeah, this is another example for sure. And it a part of the story, right, they're talking about. And so the founder of NASA has this on his tombstone, it says his name, his date, and it says Psalms nineteen:one. And Psalms nineteen:one says, Let the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Brian:So the name of that chapter is Declare the Glory. So he's talking about the first part of the line, Let the heavens declare the glory of God, and he's talking about how he's kind of stopped trying to figure out what exactly is going on up there and what it is, and just be in awe of it. Just let it declare the glory, just like the magnitude, the beauty, just be in awe and stop trying to pretend we know what it is and how we're going to, and that we can go there and stuff like that. And, I thought that that was, you know, I wanted that to be the main theme, but I also like the fact that this guy who, who is the founder of NASA has this quote on his tombstone. Like, that's a big deal.
Brian:Like, that's like, you know, like he says in the thing, it's not just a thing. He didn't just mention this in an interview once or like, make a tweet about it. Like, obviously he's not around for tweets, but you know what I mean? Like it wasn't something he mentioned in passing it's etched in stone on his tomb, etched in on his tombstone. And it says, it has the word firmament right in it, which for those that don't know, the firmament is the, is what's considered the overarching dome that keeps earth a closed system and has, you know, keeps everything in one closed system.
Brian:Yes. So, yeah, originally, so there's a line in the story. So he says, so she, I think he says to her, like, do know what, you know, do you know Psalms nineteen:one? And she's like, Of course not. Was an atheist.
Brian:If the first version of the book said, Psalms nineteen:one says, Let the heavens declare the glory of God. In the second edition, I changed it. I updated the line a little bit and it says, the first line of Psalms nineteen:one is blah, blah, blah, blah. And again, I wanted to leave a little bit more for people to be like, Oh, let me go see what the rest says. And, and I wanted to bring, bring that in there.
Brian:And Doctor. Siri, you know, his whole thing about being part of NASA and being a spokesperson for NASA, but then he got fired for speaking a little too much. And, he's talking about these experiments where they were like, essentially, he's like, we were basically discovering what's really going on up there. And when it came time to talk about it, they decided, no, we're not going to talk about it. We're gonna, we're going to silence you.
Brian:And if you try and they tried to kill him for talking about it basically. And yeah, there's a lot to be interpreted there. Like, you know, it's, it's a little open ended. Right. But I think when people see operation paperclip, they read Psalms nineteen:one.
Brian:They kind of, if they sort of can put some of those pieces together, they might be able to draw some conclusions on my personal beliefs or maybe what's coming up in deeper discussions down the line.
Garett:Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna just reemphasize something for people that that don't know. So like that scene is in the book and he says it's the founder of NASA, but this is also true in our Yes. Quote unquote real world.
Garett:So the the the founder of NASA, I don't know if he was the founder, he was at least the head guy and
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Garett:So this was Warner Von Braun who was a Nazi. And apparently, if if the mainstream history is correct, he was like the number one guy, like, right next to Hitler. And he's the guy that gets pulled over by the US government and basically gets in charge of the Apollo program, which is the program designed to take us to the moon and he's in charge of all of space. And so he dies, I think it's like in 1971, and so you can find pictures of this. His gravestone says, Warner Von Braun, whatever, '19 1850 to 1971 or whatever.
Garett:Well, I don't know how long he lived, but that's it. And it says Psalms nineteen one. And that's all on his tombstone and that's it. And so it's like, again, what what is going on and why did he choose that, especially when it's specifically mentions the firmament. So it's like
Brian:His whole reign at NASA, like that whole time period was supposedly proving that that's not how the earth works, that we're actually this spinning ball flying through space in this infinite abyss. And we can go to the moon and stuff. The whole point was that they were like proving that and then he turns around and does this like something isn't adding up. Another thing, so I didn't, this isn't in the story, but when I was just kind of just doing some quick fact checking on him and stuff before while I was writing, I saw that one of the very first things they did when he got here was that he started working closely with Walt Disney. Like right when he got here.
Brian:So like, you know, why would he be so why would it be necessary for him to start working with Walt Disney so closely? Like, the guy who has access to the minds of every child on earth is suddenly now, oh, is let's take this not again, this big time Nazi that should be in jail, and let's put him in charge of a government agency and have him start working with Walt Disney closely. Like, why do you think that that would be right? Like, there's just this, what would be the explanation for that? That wouldn't other than, like, he's trying to, you know, that they're working together to influence us, let's say.
Garett:Well, yeah. And there's it even goes deeper. I can't so JPL, which is like Jet propulsion labs or or something like that or the guy I wish I would have remembered thought about this, but I think it's Jack Parsons, and I I think that's what JP also stands for. And he was, like one of the main guys for the rockets of was a rocket scientist or whatever, but he was also known as like a an occultist and a magician and all these like, and all he has a very interesting I don't remember it, but it's also like, yeah, I mean our whole you have like, Warner Von Braun, a Nazi, you have Walt Disney who's a, you know, creator of cartoons, and then you have this other guy who's like, you know, a a satanist and all this kind of cultist and he's the head, rocket engineer and you're like, this is a ragtag crew of of people that is are taking us to beyond, you know, up in the space. And so I I don't know what to make of it.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. And neither do I. It's another thing where I say, Listen, I don't know exactly, I don't know really exactly how this whole thing works. With the Primordial CodeGod source stuff I talked about earlier, with our Earth, the realm, the universe, I don't know how it all works.
Brian:But there's some things that I'm pretty certain are not true. And I'll kind of leave it at that, like, you know, these are breadcrumbs for other people to because again, if I'm sitting here saying this is what's true, is what's not, it's not how it works. We want people to arrive at these conclusions on their own. So the breadcrumbs are there, say let me go check this out, what's Operation Paperclip? Who is this, let me learn about this Operation Fishbowl, I think was another one that was it I took out.
Brian:Let me look these up. What do these things mean? And yeah, like just like you said, like Earth and evolution, like the two topics that we're going go into a few more I know, like, they're important. One of them is about Basically, the current narratives are Earth is just this random place in the middle of this gigantic universe. It's generally insignificant.
Brian:And we are just random beings that evolved through millions of years that are generally insignificant. It's just like living on insignificance. And that doesn't feel true to me in my body at all. And I think a lot of people sitting here listening or reading this book agree with that. So yeah, let's question it.
Brian:That's all. Let's question it. If it's that important, it affects us in many, many, many ways.
Garett:Yeah, and I think I mean, that's a good way of putting it because one of the questions when you start to go down this of like, well, why would they lie to us about
Brian:Mhmm.
Garett:Earth, like what it is in in space and and the moon. And and I think it comes down to to what you just said and it's this idea of are we random and insignificant or we are a product of creation? Because the scientific narrative is that there was a big bang, which is, you know, they can't explain that, which is already crazy enough, but that there's just this big bang and that over an infinite time scale, you have molecules and things and they just kinda smash into each other and and do their thing and over over billions upon billions of years with enough random occurrences, all of a sudden, boom, here we are. Right? And we're Yes.
Garett:We're talking on the internet and we're and we're doing all this stuff and and so that idea is like, you're random, you're lucky to be here, nothing matters and once the lights go out, is Versus this other idea of, you know, what they talk about in, you know, religions and other cultures, right? Like that the earth is more of this contained system. That's where the whole idea of the firmament comes in. And in fact, you look at a lot of another thing I should have had was like there's a there's a very good meme that goes around that shows all these different cultures, interpretations of what Earth looks like from, you know, indigenous to other religions and they're all these kind of closed systems, of like a a snow globe that would have some sort of firmament and this idea that Earth is created purposeful and it's not just a random rock floating through space amongst infinite other rocks that it's actually here, maybe even in the center of the like, that there's a reason this is that this is much bigger than a random occurrence.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. And when so in the end of chapter two, when Sandra and Kai Tiki are looking up at the sky, and they're like sharing what they feel when they look up at the sky and the stars, they have completely different viewpoints. That scene is basically there to emphasize that like how like, oh, it doesn't matter, who cares, right? Whether we're this or that, or whether what's the difference?
Brian:I still got to go to work on Monday, you know, and it's actually showing like, no, it's a huge it would and will actually affect everything, you're seeing the whole world through a different lens, and it affects everything. It affects everything. It's how you it's who we think we are, why we're here affects is at the fundamental root of everything we do, whether it's conscious or not. Yeah, so and the other thing I was going say quickly is like, you know, well, everyone's like, big bang, this is what all the smart people say, this is what the authorities say, is what all these like super geek scientific masterminds think, so how can we say they're wrong? And again, that's just propped up on the idea that, well, they've been through all the schooling and they have the thing and they're the authorities and they know, they're smart, we're dumb, Just listen to what they say, don't question it, don't even think about questioning.
Brian:And so which is also like a theme of the book, right? So it's like, kind of like all these themes kind of interplaying with each other of just yeah, just ask. So and all I can say is the author is just be curious and ask the questions.
Garett:Yeah, well another one that related to that which I think this was a really subtle one, I'd be curious how many people got this one, I think it was in chapter 12 after the, the medicine ceremony, and Sandra is her and, I think it's or or at the beach or something like that. And they're looking at the maybe a sunset or something. I don't remember the whole set. But Mhmm. Sandra says, to the uneducated eye, it would appear that the sun is the one moving, but really it is us who is moving.
Garett:And not just moving, but rolling forward at nearly a thousand miles per hour, yet we feel nothing. And what I think you're alluding to here is this idea that we are kind of taught to not trust our own senses because when you look out at the sky, it's like that's what it feels like. And this is the whole idea of, oh, do we revolve around the sun or does the sun revolve around us or are we some sort of closed system because it doesn't feel like we are revolving around the sun. And it doesn't feel like what people point out that there's a lot of movement on the the spinning of the earth, the moving around the sun, the sun, you know, and so there's all these movement patterns happening, but yet we don't feel anything and it doesn't feel or look like that, but yet we just have to be like, Oh, but I'm, it doesn't. Yeah, I know it doesn't feel like that or look like that.
Garett:But I'm, I've got a degree and I will tell you that we are.
Brian:Yes. Right. Yeah. And that that line was important for me to put it in because she specifically says that we don't feel a thing. We don't feel it at all.
Brian:People kind of remember from earlier on in that school chapter and stuff where she emphasizes strongly that everything we teach can be seen with the eyes and felt with the body. We don't teach our kids just to believe that something's true because somebody told us. We teach them to trust their senses and what we can see and feel as primary truth. And then that's like, so that's an example of something in our world, in our lives, that most people believe is true purely because they've been told that it's true. We obviously cannot feel it at all.
Brian:And all of will notice, it's never been proven or measured. So it's like, it's just told, we're just told, no, that's how it works. We can't measure it. We can't prove it. You can't feel it.
Brian:But that's how it is. Don't ask any questions, know, kind of back to that. But, So it was kind of playing in this, I wanted to put it in there that this is a belief that's not based on a felt experience. This is a belief that's based on what somebody else in an authoritative position told her was true.
Garett:Yeah, and you know, fact there was a couple different points throughout the book where you use that same theme of this idea of like how much of what we believe is just told to us and we just accept versus what we actually know. Right? I think there was the the Christopher Columbus story and you know, and that's kind of true in our own lives of like, how do I know what happened five hundred years? I have no idea, like from a personal experience and and neither does you or anybody I know because none of us were alive.
Brian:No.
Garett:And so we can go to the library and pick up a book or ask chat GPT and it'll tell us some story, we either accept that or we don't. But, know, again, that's and then you also realize when, you you know, in fact, I got in a fight with chat GPT just last night talking about about something and, you know, I'm telling you, you're not a real conspiracy theorist until chat GPT tells you you're a conspiracy theorist and tells you to slow your a little bit, because I've had that happen many times. But, yeah, we just we either accept what we're told or we're not, but you also have to remember that history is always written by the winners and that you can start to when you dig past the surface, you you realize that there are a lot of holes and inconsistencies in the story and, you know, you this doesn't You still can't prove one thing or the other, but you at least have
Brian:to
Garett:question, right?
Brian:Exactly. And yeah, that's again the school scene, she's emphasizing that this is all happening before the age of discernment. There's no reason for a five year old to think that anything these people are telling me in school might not be true. They wouldn't even cross their mind to say, How do we know? Are you sure?
Brian:They know school is where you go to learn, the teacher knows all the answers, and they're going to sit here and tell us one thing. And I'm just going to say, okay, that's what I believe now. And it's interesting the types of things that are so important at that stage, for some reason to learn in kindergarten and first grade and second grade, regarding history specifically and science that then don't ever really come up again in school. They're like, oh, you learned that already. We're not going to like really reopen this conversation when you're, you know, in your late teens or when you, you can have some, ask some more critical questions.
Brian:But, but yeah, so so yeah, good eye on that one.
Garett:Well, know, what's interesting about about that is, and this is maybe one area where science is got it right or whatever, but they talk about little kids and your brain for like the first six to seven years of their life is this sponge and it's operating in more of this theta state and and that's this evolutionary type of adapt chin to learn how to interact And with your so basically the brain is hyper malleable at that age and so then you cram all these things like certain history that Columbus sailed the ocean and George Washington Yeah. Cut down a tree and called it macaroni or whatever and all these different things and then it's like and then they become like eight years old and then boom, hardwired, like their brain is now installed. Yes, it Just locked in. Good.
Brian:Right? And you see it, I see it now, like, in Instagram comments and YouTube comments, people arguing, like people are so tied to those things that they learned when they were five years old that they just won't even consider that maybe something wasn't entirely correct or accurate. They just won't even like, it's so deeply hardwired that they can't see another alternative.
Garett:Yeah. So I got one more. Well, is Sure. So then that was all the ones I had on Earth. I don't know if I might have missed one or two, but
Brian:Those are the main ones. There's a couple. So like the other ones I'm referring to are almost just like little wordplay hints. Like if someone's like kind of suspicious of like, where's this going? And they've done like, they've been, they've kind of been in this game for a while, like, they might pick up on a couple other things.
Brian:But they're not like, they're very, very subtle. They're funny. I, it's the type of thing where I'm putting them in, I'm kind of laughing to myself, because if anyone ever even notices, it would be hilarious. Or like, down the line when the series is like finished, to go back and realize what was in the first book like, like, to me, that's, that would be cool. You know, that'd be like, just like creative, you know.
Brian:But yeah, so you got the big ones.
Garett:Well, then the other one was I mentioned on evolution and so there was this again, back to Sandra and and Kai Tiki and and Sandra was doing her I'm so smart scientist rant or something and Kai Tiki kept saying except for the monkeys except for the monkeys except for the monkeys and my interpretation on that was that evolution is not what we are told too, that we just kind of evolve from a one cell amoeba into a this into that and then some sort sort of ape and then all we are is here because there's not a lot of evidence that we're seeing that any other animal on the planet is making any sort of leap like they are saying we humans have made. Is that kind of where you're going with Yeah.
Brian:So the thing with evolution, obviously Sandra's an evolutionary biologist, right? So it's like, right off the bat, we know this is going to be a big thing. So these two things, the Earth and evolution, like I said before, are basically the foundational layer of who we are, where we are, why we're here, all those things. So the Earth realm sort of debate is one that I'm far, far more familiar with. I've down that rabbit hole for over ten years in a lot of ways, and would be like, I'd be, you know, I'm being still kind of a coy a little bit here on my firm beliefs, because I want to be that way right now.
Brian:But like, if I really had to go toe to toe with somebody and debate, I'd feel pretty confident. When it comes to evolution, it's a little bit different because I haven't read the books and done the things quite as much. But to me, it's just like this far more obvious, like, what? And again, the only thing that really supports it is like, well, everybody knows. Everybody knows that it's true.
Brian:Everybody knows that everybody knows. And I actually, I've done enough to be like, I just, anytime I have read some things, watched things, whatever, I do end up just shaking my head of like, this is so clearly a story to just keep us separated from our creator. And the idea that like, even if you believe in the idea of creation, you're like a lower intelligent type of person, like, you know, you get laughed at because everybody knows now that like, evolution is how we got here. And the big thing about evolution, though, the big thing about that specifically, is that, and she talks about this, when we see that fear, when we see that image, of the monkey and then the Neanderthal, whatever, there's like four or five stages, and then you see an upright human. We've all seen that picture.
Brian:The one and only thing that we really feel when we see that is we are currently the most evolved version of human that's ever lived. And that's the message that I think is trying to be embedded in us from all directions all the time. No, look, this is us. This is humanity at its best, what we have now. These people that are sending rockets to the moon and developing these medicines, shots and things, and immunizations, these are the smartest people on earth right now.
Brian:They're the smartest people that have ever lived. And, you know, we got, we know what we're doing here. So just like, don't question it, just follow along. And when, when you entertain the idea that that might not be the case, that we might have actually had civilizations in the past who are more advanced than us, I mean, you can't even begin to describe what changes in our world with that sense. First of all, it should and would be something that we would be talking about nonstop all the time.
Brian:Like, well, what did they do different? What worked and what didn't, and why? How did they end up then collapsing? And where are we now? Why can't we do what they did?
Brian:Why can't we build the pyramids? Why can't we figure out how they built the pyramids? Why can't we replicate it? Why can't we do that with so many ancient sites and ancient things that are just like, to me, if you start looking at ancient civilization stuff, it couldn't be more clear that we're not that. We're not who we think we are as far as advancement in humans and species.
Brian:And then again, you look around at the world and nobody's healthy, people can barely run down the block, People can barely tie their shoes, bend over and touch their toes. Like, you know, like we just don't, you know, everyone's sick and sad and depressed and unhappy. It's like we don't radiate advancement. You know, we don't, we don't paint the picture of an advanced race or species in any way. So the only reason we think that is because they tell us that we are.
Brian:There would be no logical explanation for it to really say, no, look, look, see, we're great. Or we point to computer science. Computer science again becomes the thing, well, look how advanced our computer technology is. And yes, we do seem to do that pretty well. It does not make up for all these other things that we clearly do not do well at all.
Brian:But again, it's used to put science on the pedestal. Look, we got these breakthroughs, we have the smartphones, whatever. But yes, so the fact that she's an evolutionary biologist and you know, she's so tied to that story and that theory, and now her so like, doesn't get other than this conversation, it's not like this ongoing dialogue of evolution specifically, but it's like, she's an evolutionary biology that has it all figured out. But then that whole, you know, her whole persona, whole starts crumbling around her. And maybe, as a reader, you're seeing that maybe she doesn't have it all figured out.
Brian:Maybe science in general doesn't have all these things figured out. And we don't really go back and attack the evolution story so much just yet, at least. But yeah, there's that conversation is really important for seeing that. And then, Kai T. Keeps mentioning the monkeys.
Brian:It's kind of like this subtle little joke sort of thing. But yeah, it's like this gaping hole. It's like, again, a bread crumb to start the conversation of this gaping hole of like, supposedly we evolved from this sort of ape lineage. And it's like, well, the apes are still here and we're here, but nothing in between is here. That just right off the bat doesn't make sense.
Brian:And I know there's sort of explanations for it out there of theories. When you start seeing the way these people patch these theories together to make it make sense, it's like the mental gymnastics you have to do. And I can't remember if it's said anywhere in the book, but something I say is like, the mental gymnastics, the belief and faith that you have to have, that for any of this story to make sense is far greater than any belief you'd have to have that we have a creator. You know what I mean? Like, the gaps you have to fill, things you have to, the loops you have to close in your mind are so extreme and ridiculous that they end up just pulling theory on top of theory on top of theory on top of theory to just try to make it make sense.
Brian:Other than accepting that maybe there's a higher intelligence that created us and put us here.
Garett:Yeah, that's the idea of scientism, Yes. Yeah, well man there's a lot there. You're definitely speaking my language with the whole idea of you know, ancient advanced civilizations. That's a rabbit hole I've gone down quite a bit, which seems almost undeniable at this point, you know, when you look at the the structures from pyramids to even a lot of the old cathedrals and you look at the stories and Yes. How they don't make any sense and yeah, it's like, there's clearly some sort of manipulation and disinformation that we are being told about what these things are and, you know, all these all these ancient sites all over the world that are absolute modern marvels and we are just told this very weird story, very cheesy story
Brian:Mhmm.
Garett:Because we have to believe that one, it's our the human history timeline is linear and like you said that we are the peak of existence, the smartest that I've ever been and the luckiest time to be alive because everything we have is so amazing. But yet, you look around and in general this does not look like a healthy society with people on pharmaceutical prescription drugs and they're depressed and they're overweight and they're sick and you're like, well something is not adding up because there's no way that this could be the best there is when we have evidence of these structures that sure seems to be that there was a a golden age or some sort of different way of living life, right? And I think this is also probably why this idea of Oklaubaya really resonates with people because you're like, what would our world look like if we had better schooling and all these different things.
Brian:Yeah, and that's just the conversation that again, this is all comes back to like, this is the conversations I hope that the book starts these conversations for people. And if we weren't so afraid to ask these questions, if we weren't afraid of being ridiculed and things for talking about these things, we'd be these conversations all the time. And then I think in some ways we should each have our own sort of individual theory on all of this. Everybody everything's up for grabs. Like everybody's entitled to have their own theory because nobody knows.
Brian:The people who are claiming that they have that figured out, like we know that those people are, cannot be trusted. So if nobody really knows the answers, then why not let's, let's like, I'd love to have podcasts like this all the time, where we just talked about like potential theories and what it could be and how we, and, and like the freedom and ease and safety, the psychological safety of being able to do that is all I really want people to feel. Like I want the book to open them up enough to feel safe, having these, like asking these questions and having these conversations, because ultimately that's what's going to just get us further and further close to, you know, Ocalaio or other civilizations that may have lived like this in the past.
Garett:Yeah, awesome. Well, I've got just two more things and then I'll let you go.
Brian:Sure, man.
Garett:Yeah, Yeah, well, yeah, no, I love having these types of conversations and yeah, and I think your book is going to inspire people and I hope it does because one, these conversations are are fun and also I've realized from my own self that it actually makes the world more beautiful when you look at it from this other lens. But one thing on this topic, this is just a kind of off topic but related to the book somewhat. Have you ever heard of the theory called the little season?
Brian:Yes. I've heard enough about it. I'm like, I'd consider myself generally familiar.
Garett:This is something that well, this is actually what I was fighting with chat GPT about last night. But, yeah, I'm, like, very new to this subject, but it it it's very fascinating because it seems like it kind of ties a lot of these ideas in and especially, like, this idea of the empirical code because Mhmm. Mhmm. The way I understand it and, you know, you can give me your take on it that, you know, like, I'm not I'm not a biblical scholar or anything. I'm new to all this, but so the idea is like that Jesus lived and then he, you know, he died, he was crucified and then he was resurrected and then he kind of basically told all his people like, I'll be back.
Garett:Right? And then he was then he went off to heaven and that this I idea that he was gonna come back at some point to reign, they call it the the millennium, I think, for a thousand years. And then that was gonna be this golden age and then they for whatever reason, then they were gonna just let Satan out. And then he had this free reign of the realm for whatever a thousand years called the little season. And then Jesus was supposed to come back and God and then they were supposed to like end all evil.
Garett:And so a lot of biblical scholars today believe like Jesus hasn't has not come back yet for this millennium reign. So that we're still somewhere in between him going off to heaven and saying, I'll be back. But other people, biblical scholars read, interpret the Bible that say, no, this has already happened. Already back. He's already had that thousand year reign.
Garett:That was a golden age and that explains a lot of these fascinating buildings like pyramids and churches cathedrals all the things that we can explain and that we are actually currently in the little season. And this is why everything is so deceptive and we're so confused about our history and nothing makes sense and everything and there seems to be this sinister force kind of acting. So anyway, that's kind of what I know about it.
Brian:Yeah, that's about what I know about it as well. I did hear one, listen to one podcast on the way forward, which is a show I really like. They had someone who was like, this is their main topic, I want to say it was like four or five months ago.
Garett:Okay.
Brian:It was pretty good. It was a little bit geared towards people who were already familiar. He didn't really go through the basics enough for me personally. So I'm sure there's other that guests probably does other shows and things. I haven't dug into it as much, but the idea of this sort of old world technologies and buildings and these massive cathedrals and state capital buildings that make no sense out in Washington State Capitol Building and stuff like how they could have ever possibly built this in that short period of time at that timeline in history.
Brian:Didn't even have cars. Everything was horse and buggy, yet they have these 40 foot pillars that weigh 20 tons or whatever, how many tons, 100 tons. Don't want to anything too specific because I get a lot of mixed up, but the general of it really makes sense to me. I'm like something doesn't add up. And I wouldn't say what I think is it kind of comes back to this ongoing themes, like I don't know exactly what is true, but it's another area where I'm starting to feel pretty confident in what's not true.
Brian:That's the official story we've been given. So again, it's just to continue to have us believe that anything that came before us is inferior. And that was kind of a point I was gonna make before. Evolutionary arc of us being at the top and everything before us is inferior, that's really important. So anything attached to the word ancient, ancient healing, ancient medicine, ancient is like, pseudoscience can't be proven outdated, blah, blah, blah.
Brian:So even like, if you want to go to get acupuncture, your health insurance company doesn't cover your acupuncture because it's outdated pseudoscience. It's like, no, it's been around for ten thousand years for a reason. It's just kind of all that same themes. No, no, don't look. Don't even look back there.
Brian:Anything that came before us, don't even bother looking. It's all outdated. Look, we have skyscrapers. Don't look at the pyramids. That's literally a thing I hear people say.
Brian:I don't know enough about that, but when I'm reading about the old world Tartaria of thing, I've heard different versions, different theories. I don't think anyone really knows for sure. But again, it's just becoming, seems to me overwhelmingly convincing that we don't know what we think we know.
Garett:Yeah, it's one of the most fascinating things. And I I would say the biggest thing for me about that which it's opened my eyes to kind of the beauty of architecture and looking at these older buildings and kind of realizing like how asleep I kind of was where you know, I remember when I graduated college I went to backpack through Europe for three weeks and I went to you know Saint Peter's Basilica. Yeah, was completely asleep back then and I wish I, you know, but I do remember looking and being like, wow, like every little, there was detail everywhere,
Brian:like Oh, in the yeah. It's unbelievable.
Garett:Yeah, and you know, I wish I could go back, you know, I I won't make a trip back at some point, but like, just realizing that like, to actually, you know, to marvel at these buildings this idea actually allowed me to do that when before you just kinda go through it and you're like, oh yeah, this is pretty and you know, you you hear the story that it was built in 1250 by you know, John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith and his son, and they built it in three days, and you're just like, okay. Cool. You know? You're just like, alright. Then you're off to the next place.
Garett:Right? Let's go see the Roman Colosseum, and then you're just kind of gone.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Garett:And then you don't, and then you, but you realize you're like, wow, these buildings are fascinating. Like works of art.
Brian:And I've been the same way, you know, do field trips or whatever. And like, you go to these places, yeah, it looks cool. Where are we going for lunch? The story undersells it. You notice the detail, but I think, to me, one thing is clear when I look at these things, and I haven't been in many of these places in Barcelona and stuff.
Brian:Was in a couple places in Europe, when we went to Europe to Paris and whatnot, but I haven't been to Egypt or anything, or whatnot. But I think something that people say, and I agree with just based on what I know is that these clearly weren't built by wage workers punching in from nine to five, showing up for work and doing their thing from nine to five, then leaving for a low pay sort of construction type work. These people were building in honor of something magnificent and great and every detail, no detail, like every detail mattered. Everything was built with their heart and their soul and their spirit from a place of love and joy and abundance. Without a doubt, like we couldn't even if like we, like some of the technology we can't figure out, I think even if we had the machine technology to figure out how to do it, I still don't think we could replicate that because we that's not what's being felt in our world right now.
Brian:That's not the frequency that we're, we're operating at of love and joy and abundance and endless giving. It's just not, so we couldn't, that's why our building, our modern architecture looks plain and boring. It looks sad. Architecture looks sad. It represents where we are, right?
Brian:So, yeah, that's my thought on that.
Garett:Yeah, I like the idea of building with abundance because that's the, I mean, that's clearly what they were doing. Because like, you know, most of those things we couldn't do today and if we could, it would take everything we have from, you know
Brian:Everything we have.
Garett:Iterated drafting to lasers and helicopters and who knows what, right?
Brian:Yep. Yep.
Garett:Also, like the cost would just be outrageous to like get all this stuff. And so yeah, just yeah, I just wish I could go back and be like, what? Like experience those things in their prime and be like, what was going on during this time?
Brian:What was going on? Yeah, it was people whose needs were clearly met already. Like they had everything they needed between money, food, money, love connection, all those things, those needs are met. And that what you see is the, is the sort of like, leftover, not leftovers, but like the product of that. Like I use fruit and trees as an analogy sometimes.
Brian:A healthy fruit tree is so healthy and so secure and so full of everything it needs that it literally bursts extra excess energy out and gives it and says, Here, eat this. It's beautiful. It's delicious. It's crunchy. It's sweet.
Brian:Gives and gives and gives because it has everything it needs. If the fruit tree, the end product, that fruit is the end product of all the needs being met. If it's not getting enough sunlight, not getting enough water, not getting enough everything, that fruit's not going to bear. And when I see this stuff, I think about that. Anyone involved in this process it seemed like everyone was probably involved in it in some sense were all people whose needs were being met and they were able to give time and energy and love to these works of art and these creations.
Garett:I love that. That's a cool analogy. In fact, that's complete opposite of what we were told, That these things were built during a time of slavery and, you know, and and they yeah. So that's actually that's actually a really cool thing you just said, and, I'm about to think about that. So, yeah, so one of the last things I wanna say and just kind of bring it back to the book, and give you some, you know, some props on on one aspect.
Garett:One of the things I thought you nailed was the last two chapters and the actual integration experience, particularly with Garett. I feel like that you nailed that, especially coming, you know, from my background of, like, a lot of plant medicine and having these, you know, amazing profound experiences and feeling like you all is want, all is love. And then, you know, from my one of my first times doing plant medicine, shortly after I had to go to Costco. And just got in the jungle and I found myself in Costco and it was like completely overwhelmed by like the people and the lights and the all the crap and looking in people's baskets and seeing just junk and know, but I just love how you you showed kind of like what Garett and Sandra had to deal with from, you know, in real life, quote unquote, coming back having this amazing week long experience on Gulbaya and quickly they're how they're just, you know, it's particularly Garett, right? Because he came back super motivated, like I'm a workout every day, I'm gonna read, I'm gonna study, meditate, I'm gonna do all these things and that like fell out the door, you know, like his plan fell apart five minutes from like landing back home and you know, I that that's that's good for people to know because that's how it is a lot of times, right?
Garett:Yes. And this is part of the journey of, okay, you you you've had this amazing experience, you've learned something new, but now how do we integrate that into our life and how do we continue to make progress and not let the empirical code or the matrix just completely swallow us up.
Brian:Thanks for pointing that out, And another kind of fun fact is that originally the story was going to start and end in Ol Caballo. And I mentioned earlier, had a very loose outline, but I didn't imagine that they would go home in this book. And as I got about halfway to three quarters of the way through, I still didn't know how it was going to end. Like I kind of knew how I wanted to end, but didn't really see the chain of events that were going to take place. I had this thought about them going home and doing Lash Out of There.
Brian:Was like, No, I can't do that. That's a whole another story now. They're leaving here, they're going home, there's going to be new people, new characters. Can't, I can't. Got to get this booked on.
Brian:But then of course, once I saw it, I couldn't really unsee it. I started seeing how that would be, yeah, it was going to take longer, but it would be worth it. And decided ultimately, okay, yeah, they're going to have to go home at the end. And yeah, it's funny because yeah, Garett's leaving with, you know, he's all on his high horse, everything's going smooth. And he's like, I'm going to go home and do this, that the other thing, pack my bags, make my plans.
Brian:I'll be back in a couple of months, you know, and like hit the wall the second he goes home. And I really, it was important. I had fun with it. Right. I tried to keep it realistic, but also kind of like funny in a way.
Brian:I know some people have said they'd feel like so frustrated reading that chapter of like, when he goes back to work and stuff. But I did that. Wanted to show that for that reason, because I've been there myself, and especially in medicine world and stuff like we just, in our mind, it's so clear. I'm going to do this, I'm going to talk to this person, I'm going to get this thing done, I'm to start this thing, I've been waiting, blah, blah, blah, And it's all going to be in stride. It's all rainbows and butterflies from here on out.
Brian:No one really literally thinks that, but it's hard to realize what happens when we come back hard into that new frequency field, back into the empire frequency so abruptly. And yeah, so I had some fun with that, and it was important to show because it's normally what happens. Now, Sandra had a very different experience. I wanted to just kind of show both polarities, where she came home and kind of got right down to business and did the things she had to do and which I think was fitting for her character being type of, definitely like a go getter, more like even really more masculine, finish the job sort of thing. She is still obviously a very bright person and an achiever, right?
Brian:So she kind of came home and did the things she had to do, said the things she had to say. So I wanted to emphasize, well, her, I wanted to emphasize, like, she just had this monumental transformative day with the ceremony experience where like her whole world was turned upside down. She was granted access to the wisdom of the universe and all these things. And what it all boiled down to at the end of the day was that she realized I need to have some meaningful conversations with a few important people in my life. And I want to emphasize that too, especially like medicine type work where people are like, you know, they know that these experiences can be so mind blowing and so opening and expansive and shift our realities.
Brian:And in the end of the day, usually what were the messages that we get are very simple. Like, I need to say I love you, I thank you, I'm sorry, I forgive you kind of stuff to the people that are closest to me in my life. And so I wanted to really emphasize that with her. And then with him, I wanted to really emphasize how you think you got it all figured out and it can just go south really fast. And so, like I said, it wasn't going to be, I originally wasn't going to include time home.
Brian:Let me just plug in this chart real quick. But I ended up having a lot of fun with those chapters too. They were like my favorite chapters to write actually. And because what I was afraid of was a whole new story, new characters out of that, but then I ended up having fun with that. And I just, I realized, oh, I could just like create a character just to bridge just to like, have one conversation that bridges part of the story and stuff.
Brian:I got kind of creative with that. I was also able to build their characters retroactively a little bit. And this is, again, me being an amateur writer, there wasn't a whole lot of character built. You don't know much about their life and their backgrounds before they get there to Ocala. It's dripped out, you get these little pieces along the way.
Brian:But then when they get home, I had a chance to like, retroactively build that whole story character. And that was good for me, too, because like, I'm still like getting to know these characters as I'm building them. So there was like, I could like double click on a lot of the things that came up earlier about them and their lives and their tendencies and their patterns and stuff like that. So, yeah, I had fun with it. I was able to bring some humor into it and like, it just felt right.
Brian:It felt fitting as the way to finish the story.
Garett:Yeah, it was the perfect way to finish the story and you nailed it. And yeah, I could definitely tell you're having some fun with it. Yeah, the Garett's integration was just so frustrating. And just the, I mean, you name like the corporate culture of like the the the days off and I don't even remember all how the conversations were, but it was just so Yeah. Ridiculous, but it's like that's our reality.
Garett:Right? It's like
Brian:Yeah.
Garett:No, you can't use your sick days over the weekend or whatever it was.
Brian:You can't use two business days in a row. And he's like, they're supposed to be mental health days. Like you're be able to use them when you need them. And they're like all these rules around it. And like, I wanted it to be ridiculous, but not but like it felt ridiculous because it was realistic, not because it was so blown out of proportion.
Brian:The only person that ever read the story before I published it was my wife, and she read one scene at a time. There's 100 scenes in the story, Exactly. Just came out And to she read one scene at a time over two years. But when she got to that part, she was so frustrated by it that I almost was like, Oh, maybe I shouldn't. She's like, I can't even read it.
Brian:Don't even, this is just bothering me. His freaking boss. I'm like, Farnie was like, I don't know. Is it too much? And then Farnie was like, no, I think that's where it needs to be.
Brian:There needs to be this tension for sure.
Garett:Well, no, no. I mean, because that's how it is, right? Mean, that's the thing is like, you know, it is frustrating and hard to read, it's because that's life. Like you said, we come home and we have all these plans and we know what we need to do. And then you run into these roadblocks.
Garett:In fact, I was just talking to someone about this the other day and like, you know, I think at some point you have to just take these leaps of faith, like you have because like
Brian:Mhmm.
Garett:We hope that there will be some sort of working solution like, oh, maybe I can still, know, it's basically, you know, what Garett is trying to Can I keep my job? Can I go do this thing? And like trying to like have everything work out and it's like that doesn't the universe doesn't allow for that, right? I know from my story and even hearing your story like at some point you have to be like, alright, I'm a burn the bridges and I'm all in on this other thing because you can't be on two paths at the same time and so
Brian:No, exactly.
Garett:And I think that's the frustration people feel because we, you know, we all feel I still feel that, right? And I'm I'm my path is more aligned to where I need to be, but I still come up against roadblocks all the time.
Brian:Same here. It's like we want to live in all these ways where we want my wife not to be home with the kids, we want not to send them to public school and homeschool. We want to be able to have community around us. It's like, you would think that that would be somewhat simple and easy, and it's just not. Constantly hit walls of frustration of like, this shouldn't be so hard.
Brian:And I know that sounds very like victim, right? That's like, you know, when we're at the height of frustration, it feels like that sometimes. But like on a day to day, it is, it's frustrating. It's hard. And it's like, God, man, this is just not why, why, why, you know?
Brian:But yeah, so I forget what I was saying. Oh yeah, but then he ultimately, like you said, not to spoil too much, but he ultimately, he can't just make it work as planned. He has to decide what's more important and whether or he's ready to really take a leap on something. I thought that that was appropriate for sure.
Garett:Yeah. Well, man, this has been awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Where can people get your book?
Brian:Yeah, so if anyone has well, I was going say first, I think this is going be a great episode to share with people in the Club O'Cabo community as well. I When they're finishing the story, hearing something like this, this kind of conversation is usually really interesting, more behind the scenes stuff. But if you have anyone listening who hasn't read it yet, theprimordialcode.com is where you can order. I send them directly. I actually have one left here.
Brian:There's a shipment coming. And that is best for the support the project as a whole is to order from you directly. However, it is on Amazon as well. Thank you for pulling it up. It's on Amazon as well.
Brian:I like that fancy stuff. I we, I thought the computer, I thought we glitched out for a second. I thought you lost it. Yes, right there on the website. And then if you're out of The U.
Brian:That Amazon is the best option. But also it is now available for free on audio on Spotify, YouTube, and, apple, apple podcasts. So if you'd rather, if you're an audio person, you'd rather just listen there, or you want to just like check it out first, just go find it and press play. See where it takes you. I think if you're this far in the conversation and you found this interesting, you're pretty safe bet you're going to enjoy the story.
Brian:When you're searching on audio, just be sure for some reason I had to restart the channel. So now there's like two Primordial Codes out there. I've deleted the other one and stuff, but for some reason it still shows up on Spotify. If there's only two chapters showing, that's the old preview version, just look for the other one that shows all 14 chapters. And then, when you're done, there's a, you can join our club El Cabo community.
Brian:We have a discord channel. We have group calls. I have a new program that's coming out through there for a movement and meditation program that's similar to a lot of the things that are discussed in the story. We're also going to be starting retreats in the new year, things of that nature. So that's growing every day, new people coming in, it's really exciting, everyone's really pretty amped up to bring Ocalaia to life and make this happen.
Brian:So, you know, we have a long road ahead of us from that end of the creation, but this is how we start.
Garett:Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, and your community has grown here. It's crazy. The Discord channel is insane.
Brian:I'm excited. I'm excited in
Garett:a good way, but it's like I can't keep up, but it's amazing to see that, like, because I you know, I'm fairly I got in on the book. I think I read it in February. So I don't when was it released?
Brian:The one was the book released?
Garett:Yeah.
Brian:It was actually released in February of last year. But I sold like 20 copies the first year. It didn't go very far. But yeah, so then I relaunched this new edition in October of last year of twenty five. So with the new cover and things, now it's kind of a new push and then it's been kind of really picking up steam since then.
Garett:Yeah. So anyway, so I read it in February of this year and I was in club club or or Coblo at the beginning, and it was, you know, just a few a tweet here and there, and now it's this whole system. It's insane. Yeah. It's
Brian:It's fun. I'm gonna have to work out the kinks as we go as people are coming in and find out ways to make it like, you know, not feel too overwhelming, like you said, but it's fun. There's energy in there for sure.
Garett:Yeah. All right. Well, cool.
Brian:Thanks so much,
Garett:Appreciate this. And, yeah, I had a had a great time.
Brian:Me too, man. This is a good one. I appreciate you.
Garett:Yeah. Thank you.