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FUTURE OF XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:06:00 - 00:00:31:12
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to another episode of future of X, Y, Z. It's summer and we're talking about a not super summery topic necessarily, but we're gonna be talking today with Shelly Xu of SXD. Oh my God, that's really tongue twister, Shelly, but those are your initials with design at the end about the future of pattern making.
00:00:31:14 - 00:00:34:03
Speaker 1
Shelly, welcome to Future of XYZ.
00:00:34:05 - 00:00:37:06
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me, Lisa. Glad to be here.
00:00:37:08 - 00:01:00:06
Speaker 1
well, you and I met, through a mutual friend or colleague, just about two years ago, and I've been wanting to do this. but you've been very, very busy. you have 15 plus years of experience creating what is now award winning, zero waste design, through SXD which I think you started while you were at Harvard Business School, is that correct?
00:01:00:08 - 00:01:18:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And actually, even before that, I have been creating zero waste designs for quite some time. And, actually now a lot of them have become kind of like the training data sets that trains our AI platform. So it's really interesting how the things that I was just sketching out are now being digitized.
00:01:18:11 - 00:01:52:11
Speaker 1
that's actually really amazing. And and I mean, prior to that, you studied at Columbia undergraduate and you kind of worked at Instagram, and well it started at McKinsey, which is hilarious. Prada, eBay, Instagram. So you've you've come through the ranks. But somehow this hobby of fashion design and now becoming an award winning platform, I, I, I know that we're going to get into a lot of this, but as I always do, I like to define the topic, based on kind of your expertise at the intersection of design and technology.
00:01:52:11 - 00:01:58:18
Speaker 1
And now, based on the conversation we're going to have today. So how do you define pattern making?
00:01:58:20 - 00:02:16:24
Speaker 2
For me, pattern making is thinking about your material and resources as the creative constraint and the pattern that you create is the way that you cut within that creative constraint to maximize beauty and also efficiency. That's better for our planet.
00:02:17:01 - 00:02:45:07
Speaker 1
that's a beautiful definition of pattern making. I'm going to backtrack for a minute, coming back to where you started. I mean, you went to Columbia undergraduate and studied, I believe, political science and economics. So not so dissimilar from me. Then you went to Harvard Business School, also similar to me, a top international MBA. But somehow in those intervening years, you invented multiple utility patents on design technology.
00:02:45:09 - 00:02:52:15
Speaker 1
So share a bit, if you will, how an economics poli sci business person became a tech inventor.
00:02:52:17 - 00:03:17:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. So actually, funnily enough, I'm a self-taught designer and I have been sewing since I, I mean, I was like 6 or 7 years old, making clothing for fun. I still have actually photos from my first day, I think, orientation at Columbia University, where I made newspaper dresses, like random strangers who I just met during orientation.
00:03:18:00 - 00:03:40:14
Speaker 2
And, And you're totally right. I graduated with an econ and poli sci degree. I also actually graduated with a sustainable development degree, and, that degree started when I was in school. And for me, when I started Columbia, I actually started as a visual arts major, funny enough, you know, I, I just felt like for me, art and design is something I love doing.
00:03:40:16 - 00:04:02:23
Speaker 2
and I love exploring on my own. but I really wanted to get more, like, hard skills out of, my education at Columbia. And so I think in the beginning, when I was getting my visual arts major, we had a lot of just many hours of just draw whatever you want. And I love that. And I think that's really super, super fun.
00:04:03:00 - 00:04:29:21
Speaker 2
but, at the end of the day, I really started thinking, well, I could kind of draw however I want, whenever I want, and I kind of want to start learning some frameworks and guardrails that can help me think about how to systematize design, how to create designs that are scalable, how to create designs that actually can also be connected to things like our planet and makes sense for businesses to adopt.
00:04:29:23 - 00:04:54:07
Speaker 2
and that was super fascinating to me. To your point, my patents are around design technology. I think I've always been super fascinated by the intersection of disciplines, because I really believe that's where the magic happens. and so, when I think of design, I love combining it with business, with, technology and really thinking of and with sustainability, of course, and thinking about how design can play a role there.
00:04:54:09 - 00:05:28:05
Speaker 1
I love that, you grew up in Asia, where I am assuming you witnessed fashion's negative impact firsthand. And I say that having gone to business school and spending, you know, almost six months in Asia, and it wasn't just and then also in the fashion industry myself for a decade, I think it's really fascinating to observe not only the human cost of the fashion, which you see when you live in a place for an extended period or when you work in the industry.
00:05:28:11 - 00:05:52:13
Speaker 1
But the environmental degradation based on everything from the water to the runoff to the waste in the textiles, it is it's pretty profound. And obviously it's not Asia alone, but a lot of manufacturing has been happening in Asia for the last 20 or 30 years. I mean, 87% of materials based on clothing, other textiles today end up in landfills or incinerators.
00:05:52:18 - 00:06:00:08
Speaker 1
I mean, is this what kind of like jolted you to this zero waste mentality? Or like, where did that come from?
00:06:00:10 - 00:06:25:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, I definitely think that's part of it because I literally grew up, growing up I literally saw parks that I like playing in, becoming dumpsters for waste. And that's something that you don't really forget growing up as a, as a kid. and I would say from a more hopeful side, parts of my childhood also really inspired the zero waste design as a solution for me.
00:06:25:18 - 00:06:50:07
Speaker 2
so I, I love sharing the story about how I grew up in a 70 square foot home in China. That's where I was born raised, and it was so small that we could only fit one table or one bed at a time, not both. And so my parents would teach me how to rearrange furniture throughout the day so I can get creative about how to use a space and make things work every day.
00:06:50:11 - 00:07:20:24
Speaker 2
Wow. Yeah, yeah. So I think because of that growing up, I always saw constraints and resources as and resource constraints as points for innovation. And actually as like boundaries are really exciting because then you get to be creative within it. and I love this idea of creativity under constraint. And I really think that's the backbone of SXD and zero waste design is that you really respect your resources as your creative constraint.
00:07:21:01 - 00:07:30:17
Speaker 2
and it's not a compromise on design, but it's a way to unleash new ideas because now you're forced to innovate in a way that you haven't been able to before.
00:07:30:19 - 00:07:59:10
Speaker 1
It's totally fascinating. I mean, I remember I had like a tear rolling down my eye the first time you walked me through the demo. because of my own passion for sustainability, my own background in the fashion world, but also, I mean, your technology, and just to come back to pattern making at its most basic, and the 70 square foot apartment that you just described makes so much sense now given. When you have a roll, let's call it for layman's terms of fabric, right?
00:07:59:10 - 00:08:25:13
Speaker 1
Let's say it's going to be a t shirt. You know, pure cotton, one color, very simple stuff. Usually companies do a run of smalls of mediums, of larges. And and they pattern the t shirt. I'm doing the motion for anyone who's not watching this but is listening. And, and you can imagine a bunch of these, like, like cookie cutters drawn on and then cut and the textile in between.
00:08:25:13 - 00:08:48:19
Speaker 1
Unlike cookie dough, which can be rolled out and made into other cookies, actually ends up being tossed away. So you have an enormous amount of waste. The technology SXD has done is actually you can do multiple size runs on the same, and the idea is that you fit all those cookie cutters. The bed in the table may not fit at the same time, but you can fit a bunch of smalls, mediums,
00:08:49:13 - 00:08:58:06
Speaker 1
extra large, and extra extra larges onto that same roll to achieve at least a massive reduction in the textile waste, if I've explained that correctly.
00:08:58:08 - 00:09:19:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's very much what we think about. And I would say another part is to just to follow your analogy on cookie cutters, it's kind of like trying to fit two rounded circles in a rectangle. You're always going to have waste. And another thing we think about at SXD, what if we reimagine, why did does it have to be a circle?
00:09:19:15 - 00:09:44:07
Speaker 2
What if you make it, you reshape it. So it's like a puzzle shape, so that all the pieces become like little puzzles so that they fit together seamlessly and there's no waste in between. But when you cut them up and you sew them together or you put them together, it still becomes the garment that people like. and so that's really part of the, creation of zero waste pattern that we would think about a lot.
00:09:44:09 - 00:09:50:05
Speaker 1
So, so you're saying like maybe the seam on something is going to be in a different place? Potentially.
00:09:50:07 - 00:10:12:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's possible. Exactly. Or we may merge some pieces together or split them in a different way. Sometimes we also might, you know, maybe combine some materials, let's say you have a taping here. That taping might not have to be that specific material. Maybe you can actually use some a part of the original fabric.
00:10:12:03 - 00:10:23:17
Speaker 2
The, the main fabric that typically gets wasted and actually use that to create that same taping and cut it in a way that has similar function. And so those are the things that we think a lot about.
00:10:23:19 - 00:10:42:23
Speaker 1
it's it's fascinating. And I'm not going to ask you to define taping because people can figure it out. But I, I'm curious. There are one of the reasons that I was so excited, seeing your technology was because I've also worked in a lot of other industries, and, and we're manufacturing because most things are manufactured except in the tech space.
00:10:42:23 - 00:11:00:11
Speaker 1
Right. And even there we're talking about servers. And I won't even get into that environmental impact of all that. But I do think it's really interesting what other industries have such things as pattern making that this technology is either you're already applying it to or you think that there's potential.
00:11:00:13 - 00:11:30:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I am super interested in how we can apply our technology across industries. One of the things that surprised me was even software that's used today in apparel, there are a lot of times also used in automotive, also maybe used in furniture upholstery, creations. So and also the fundamental feature that's used today, that's like the legacy feature used to try to force fit those cookie cutter pieces.
00:11:30:04 - 00:11:58:01
Speaker 2
but you still end up with a lot of waste. It's called a nesting feature. And it's been around since, like the 1960s or 70s. and that's the feature that has been used across automotive apparel, upholstery in so many different industries. And so when I think about and that's the kind of innovation that we're building our platform on top of, to, to achieve way better, efficient, higher efficiency, a lot more material savings.
00:11:58:03 - 00:12:23:16
Speaker 2
And so, when I think about what we can apply ourselves to, I definitely think about like automotive right away, especially things like seats and, parts that use textile already. But also I'm excited about really anything that uses rolls of material. So sheet metal, for example. I was so shocked to hear that for some automakers, they literally waste billions of dollars every year from sheet metal waste.
00:12:23:18 - 00:12:31:14
Speaker 2
And then they had to then spend like millions and millions of dollars more to recycle it. Yeah, and get rid of it. And so
00:12:31:16 - 00:12:44:06
Speaker 1
And the energy that's put into making that sheet metal in the first place is just like is a huge challenge. I mean, the zero waste concept in pattern making to me is like, could be a game changer.
00:12:44:08 - 00:13:10:15
Speaker 2
Thank you. I really believe that too, because I think it's a fundamental change from the beginning that's directly addressing the root cause, which is that the way we design from the start is not efficient. So how can we make it efficient rather than try to solve the problem later on? I mean, I have a lot of respect for recycling, but I do think sometimes when you try to address the issue at the end, you might actually end up using so much energy.
00:13:10:17 - 00:13:29:14
Speaker 2
there's a lot of time and effort and energy required to, to collect all the materials and treat them. And so I, I'm a strong believer that the earlier you can solve the problem from the very start, from the root cause, from the first cut of the material, the better.
00:13:29:16 - 00:13:52:05
Speaker 1
absolutely. And and are you finding I mean, you just started working on automotive project. There are lots of other applications, but you guys are I mean, you're still in startup mode, more or less. are you finding that the fashion industry is receptive to this, or are there other industries that feel like they're more receptive at this point?
00:13:52:05 - 00:14:13:14
Speaker 1
Like my experience is fashion is very slow to change. I mean, you and I talked about this before. I mean, I went to business school in 2006 in the hopes of working in sustainability in fashion, because I was so kind of appalled by what I saw. And there was I mean, that's 20 years ago, almost. And I don't see of huge I mean, obviously the conversation consumer conversation is different.
00:14:13:16 - 00:14:28:13
Speaker 1
supply chain stuff is different. But the industry at large still is producing en masse. I mean, fast fashion alone creates so much waste. Like, are you finding the people receptive or are you what is your experience and how are you working with brands?
00:14:28:15 - 00:14:58:00
Speaker 2
I think we have a mix of brands who are excited because of the sustainability side. But also, I would say universally brands are excited because of the material savings, which is, you know, going back to our business background economics. Yeah, exactly. You know, maybe people don't care that much about sustainability, but when you can increase their margins because now they have a shirt that uses 40% less material, that is great for them, great for their bottom line.
00:14:58:06 - 00:15:20:00
Speaker 2
And so I think that's really what we lean into the most. We try to be realists. I like to say that we're optimists about the future and realists about the present. And I try to be realistic because I, I know that people care about making money. We're living a capitalistic society, and people need to save costs, especially in today's economic environment.
00:15:20:02 - 00:15:45:19
Speaker 2
And so that's what we try to lead with, to speak people's common language. To your point about fashion being slow, I, I find it so fascinating and I don't really have an answer for this, of how fashion can be so fast and so slow at the same time, because on the one hand, you know, you see like all these like seasonality and trends just getting faster and faster and like all these different styles turning.
00:15:45:21 - 00:16:09:11
Speaker 2
But on the other hand, when you actually look at the fundamental innovation, that drives this industry and then the inefficiencies that are so deep down there and I, I just it it really surprised me how little change there has been. And I, I always find a really, I find it really fascinating.
00:16:09:13 - 00:16:37:15
Speaker 1
I, I couldn't say it better. I mean, and I, and I love what you said also about being an optimist about the future and a realist about the present. I think it's important. Do you see anything that makes you really hopeful on the supply chain side or, and or on the consumer demand side? Vis-a-vis besides, just bottom line savings impact, to the brands that that's kind of like pulling this kind of zero waste conversation forward.
00:16:37:17 - 00:16:59:04
Speaker 2
Yes. Overall, I definitely think we're I do think things are moving in the right direction. I can give you an example. When I just started this company, this is like way before I ever made the company official, I called up like all the manufacturers locally. and basically and I said, I'm really interested in exploring zero waste patterns.
00:16:59:04 - 00:17:18:19
Speaker 2
I've been sewing these in my dorm room in my, in my apartment, and I'm super interested to, to work with manufacturers to see how we can scale this and see the real impact. And literally every single manufacturer turned me down. And no matter what I said and they're just like, we don't do this is not how we operate.
00:17:18:21 - 00:17:40:06
Speaker 2
but but now I think that there is a clear change. And I do think some of it is, because the brands they are there are asking for more sustainable options because their consumers are asking for it. I also think that manufacturers know that it's a competitive advantage to be able to say that they have these innovations that can allow people to be more sustainable.
00:17:40:12 - 00:17:54:01
Speaker 2
They also know that, if they can save on material, that's actually really great for for them too, as they now have more and more increasingly, more things that's being demanded of them from, from others.
00:17:54:07 - 00:17:58:11
Speaker 1
The complexity is huge is getting bigger too for them.
00:17:58:13 - 00:18:20:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, last I think it was last year, SXD won this award, for innovator of the year with Isaac, which is this, innovative manufacturer based out of Detroit. And I just felt like it was such a full circle because, in the beginning, when I started the company, literally, manufacturers are like, what the hell is this?
00:18:20:02 - 00:18:32:14
Speaker 2
Get out of my way. but now we actually have manufacturers who found out about us, want to give us the award, and, and also work with us actively. And I think that's really exciting.
00:18:32:16 - 00:18:45:10
Speaker 1
It is really exciting. I want to talk about a technical piece of your business, but I also want to acknowledge, I mean, that's not the only award you've won. I mean, you were nominated for an Earthshot Prize in 2023, I think, or 2024.
00:18:45:16 - 00:18:51:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, we've been nominated for a couple of years now. So if Earthshot is listening to this, just want to let you know.
00:18:51:23 - 00:19:19:19
Speaker 1
I mean, it's amazing. I mean, Earthshot is like, the royal family of England's like, you know, green solutions, like, you know, like a moonshot kind of prize. and so it's a huge honor. But you've also recently won an AWS. So, Amazon compute for climate, a Keeling Curve prize. I mean, you what you guys are doing by merging classic pattern making technology with AI is getting recognition.
00:19:19:21 - 00:19:45:19
Speaker 1
and I think that's largely because I think you're, you're you're claiming at least that it's, you know, 25 to 40% reduction in fabric. And, I mean, these are kind of massive innovations, you know, 10x more material savings than any other solution out there. I mean, these are these are big numbers. How is AI involved in SXD and how is it, you know, being used?
00:19:45:21 - 00:20:09:23
Speaker 2
so, we want to use AI to scale zero waste designs. that's really the, the main reason why we use AI. and the way we use it is that we first make sure. So we actually own all of our training data sets within SXD. And we made them ourselves to be super high quality. and make sure that they're really great designs.
00:20:10:00 - 00:20:31:21
Speaker 2
And, what our AI does is that basically it learns from that and it allows us to scale it. So for example, with zero Waste designs, it's not a super new concept on its own. I mean, kimono, sorry, all these are traditional zero waste designs, but the problem has always been, well, first of all, there's a lot of folding and gets bulky.
00:20:31:21 - 00:21:02:02
Speaker 2
And so, people don't feel like it actually can save on material. which means it doesn't actually help the planet. It doesn't actually save money. and so that's one thing we make sure of. And we actually built a algorithm, within our AI platform. and basically this algorithm makes sure that it's a multivariable optimization, makes sure that we're not just maintaining zero waste design, but also we are saving significantly on material at the same time and making sure that it's a really efficient design.
00:21:02:04 - 00:21:19:18
Speaker 2
but the second thing is, the scalability of zero waste has been a big blocker. You can imagine that let's say you've created this really great way of cutting your fabric so there's no waste. But now let's say that your fabric changed a little bit in width. Now it's wider. Or let's say that now you decide to create a smaller size.
00:21:19:20 - 00:21:35:08
Speaker 2
Then you had to redo everything and reimagine the entire surface again. and that's what our AI does, is to remove that kind of tedious work. that can take weeks or even months to do, to instead do it in just seconds.
00:21:35:10 - 00:22:05:02
Speaker 1
that's, you've done this elevator pitch before I get the sense, Shelly. It's really well described. you have, a very impressive team, including advisors, people like the former creative director at, Adidas, my former alma mater, and the EVP of Beyonce's entertainment company, who did lots of merch. Both of them know a lot about this space.
00:22:05:04 - 00:22:26:20
Speaker 1
But between that and the awards, like, what is the role that these kinds of players or accolades do, not only to obviously help SXD, but overall to kind of get the message out to industry that things are changing or it's there's an opportunity for them to change.
00:22:26:22 - 00:22:52:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. One of my biggest goal is to get people to think of zero waste designs as not a compromise, but a just something that's a step toward the future instead. because and I think these accolades and having these really incredible people, our team really helps to build that kind of credibility and to make sure that we're delivering against what we say we will deliver.
00:22:53:01 - 00:23:22:21
Speaker 2
and I really feel like I believe, especially when it comes to, a space as subjective as fashion. I think so much of it is in our heads. I feel like, you know, if you tell people this is zero waste, people might immediately think, oh, what's different? Everything that is different is not good. And what I would like to get us to is to feel like going from traditional pattern making, where there is a good amount of waste, usually double digits to a zero waste design
00:23:23:16 - 00:23:38:00
Speaker 2
should feel like going from like gasoline cars to electric cars just because it's different and when you look under the hood is totally different, doesn't mean that it's bad. It actually can be a step in the right direction. It could be something that's really great.
00:23:38:02 - 00:24:01:08
Speaker 1
Well, the last week's episode was or two weeks ago is episode was the future of different. So with another designer and, I think, I think you've just nailed why different is is usually good. Creativity is is is is powerful. I before I get to the last questions, I just want to come back to the fashion industry and the impact on the world.
00:24:01:08 - 00:24:24:04
Speaker 1
I mean, some of the data, I mean, besides the immense waste and the fact that most of it's not recycled and incineration is toxic unto itself, but, I mean, I was pretty shocked when I did a recent presentation to learn that the fashion industry globally is responsible for about 10% of global carbon emissions and about 20% of global waste water.
00:24:24:06 - 00:24:49:03
Speaker 1
and the UN forecast that like the textile industries emissions, if continuing in the growth pattern that they are in, will rise by more than by sitting more than 60%, sorry, by 2030. So I mean it's like exponential. So what is happening is actually destroying the planet. It's like bad for people's livelihoods. It's not really good for any of our pocketbooks, to be really honest either.
00:24:49:05 - 00:25:07:19
Speaker 1
as you think about the future and what you guys are delivering is your ultimate goal the fashion industry and a revolution there, or is there like something more, I want to say more moderate or more tactical from your side?
00:25:07:21 - 00:25:34:22
Speaker 2
I would say our ultimate goal is to make zero waste the standard for design. So it's not even just fashion. It's all design that uses rolls of material, or 2D material as a starting point. And so I actually believe that this is a platform that can work even beyond fashion. And to address to your point, one of the worst industries to our planet right now.
00:25:34:24 - 00:25:57:21
Speaker 2
and because I really believe in not only the impact of our platform to your point ten times more material savings, than any other solutions out there today, but also the scalability of the solution. from the beginning, I really wanted to make sure that we can provide a solution that's not just going to be a quick marketing campaign for fashion.
00:25:57:23 - 00:26:21:12
Speaker 2
because I think things can easily become that way where people do a quick capsule collection and it's, yay this is sustainable. But what about the remaining like 99% of the products? So I want to make sure that it was a solution that can actually scale and scale in terms of sustainability and its benefit to businesses at the same time.
00:26:21:14 - 00:26:36:00
Speaker 1
thanks for that. And thanks for the work. we have one final question, but is there anything, Shelly, that I didn't ask you about, that you want to make sure that listeners and viewers know about pattern making?
00:26:36:02 - 00:26:41:08
Speaker 2
I feel you, you you asked a lot of good questions, so I don't think so.
00:26:41:10 - 00:27:01:15
Speaker 1
Cool. The last, last question then, and I think you may have already answered it, but I’ll get you give you the chance to summarize it. imagine today it's 2025. In 25 years it'll be 2050, which is hard to wrap my head around. What's your greatest hope for the future pattern making at that point?
00:27:01:17 - 00:27:30:18
Speaker 2
yeah, I want I want the main way of making patterns to be zero waste. That's what I like to to see and I also, you know, people always say, we may not even have ten more years before climate change is irreversible. So I hope that a smarter way of making patterns and designing is going to play a role in actually reversing this, this track, for climate change and actually making a difference.
00:27:30:20 - 00:27:49:23
Speaker 1
Shelly Xu, CEO and founder of SXD.AI is where you can find it on the web. thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today. I love this conversation. I love what you're doing, and I really appreciate your sharing with all of our viewers and listeners all about it.
00:27:50:00 - 00:27:52:21
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me, Lisa.
00:27:52:23 - 00:28:15:00
Speaker 1
Everyone watching and listening. if you didn't already know, you can watch on YouTube. You can listen anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. Be sure to leave us a five star review on those podcast platforms to help other people find us, we really need to push on that. It's not something I ask very often, so please, try and, we'll see you again in two weeks time.
00:28:15:00 - 00:28:22:13
Speaker 1
If you need show notes or anything else, visit iFDesign.com/xyz. Thanks so much.