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Future-proof your leadership with High Octane Leadership, a place where business leaders—whether by title or aspiration—share cheat codes for unlocking workplace excellence, lessons learned along the way, and insider tips for future generations of next-level professionals. With a career rooted in building people and businesses, Donald Thompson is an award-winning CEO, speaker, and author who empowers leaders to scale with purpose. Over the last 25 years, he has helped startups and enterprises alike drive cultural change, unlock performance, and deliver exceptional results through strategic leadership.
Find him on LinkedIn, and listen here to learn how you can become future-proof too.
Bob Batchelor: [00:00:00] Don and I wanna give you permission to stop exhausting yourself. Don't try to change unchangeable people. Start figuring out how you actually grow in a system in which you know this is rampant.
Donald Thompson: Welcome to High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. This season we're diving deeper with more solo episodes where I'll share the experiences that have led to recognition by ey, Forbes, fast Company and others, not as a boast, but as milestones on my entrepreneurial path.
From growing multimillion dollar firms to successful business exits and building high performance teams with a global perspective, I'll reveal the insights and strategies from my journey and share them with you so that we can win together. Alongside these soul episodes, we'll have industry visionaries and thought leaders.
And we'll explore effective leadership ready to empower your leadership journey with real success stories. Let's embark on this transformational journey together. Welcome to another episode of [00:01:00] High Octane Leadership. I am here with my creative partner, good friend, Mr. Excuse me. Dr. Bob Bachelor, and, uh, we both share that distinction.
Mine is honorary. His is earned. I earned mine different, you know what I mean? Let me get this little lent off. Yeah. But, uh, one of the things that when Bob and I chop it up is, number one, it's always a good time. Number two, one of the reasons it's great content is because I learn just as much as we give.
And, uh, one of the things that we're gonna talk about today is really how do we break through when we are talking with folks. They're hardwired differently than us. And so Bob, we're gonna kind of jump into it. I'm gonna turn the microphone over to you for a minute to kind of set the stage right of the topic, why we came to this moment, and then we'll just kind of rock and roll from there.
Bob Batchelor: That sounds great, Don. Thanks. I'm Bob Bachelor, as Don said, um, written the Authentic Leader and also I am a assistant professor of Communication Media and Culture at Coastal Carolina, where Don is [00:02:00] going to be keynoting the Communications week, uh, event that we have next week. So we're super excited to have Don in Conway, South Carolina, what we're talking about today.
We have basically started calling it human nature management, and the reason Don turned the mic over for a second is, this is hot off the presses. Don and I started talking about this last week because we are trying to uncover. What are the, what are the difficulties around psychological safety? You know, Don and I are both intimately familiar with the Workplace Options Center for Organizational Effectiveness Workplace, uh, psychological Safety Study.
The next edition's about to come out within a week or two, and so we, this has really been on our minds. That study looks at 18 countries and identifies the three challenges that are preventing psychological safety. So we've spent a lot of time researching this and human nature management, as I said, fresh off the [00:03:00] off the presses.
So here's a question. Most leadership consultants won't ask you. How much of your management energy are you wasting on people who will never actually change? So I'm not talking about just difficult, difficult employees. We've all dealt with that. People who need coaching. I'm talking about the ones who have shown you repeatedly that they're not coachable.
The ones who hear every piece of feedback as a personal attack. Who are you to tell me that kind of attitude? Who doubles down when they're challenged and who is receptive in meetings, but who never actually adjusts their behavior? So here's the thing. We spend a lot of time building psychological safety.
We have spent time and lots of money companies all over the world telling them psychological safety is the key. We've, we've created inclusive [00:04:00] cultures, we've invested in development programs time and time again, but yet we still have team members who arrive at work already convinced they're right. And no matter what.
They believe they're right because they're being filtered through their algorithmic bubbles, their political belief systems tribalism, and we're spending a lot of time coaching them, and that's a lot of energy. And we all know that executive mental wellbeing is an important topic. So we call this a precondition problem.
It's the leadership challenge that no one wants to talk about and nobody wants to name. What do you do when people won't receive input? That's what we're calling this human nature management, and it's the one thing that we really don and I want to give you permission to stop exhausting yourself. Don't try to change unchangeable people.
Start figuring [00:05:00] out how you actually grow in a system in which you know, this is rampant. We're not, nobody's willing to talk about this, and that's the kind of pro, uh, problem Don and I love to talk about. So that's where we're starting. Don, I don't know if you have any, um, follow up or you just wanna dive right into questions?
No, I'm ready either way.
Donald Thompson: Let's, let's dive into questions. I'm into it. We've been talking about this offline, so I'm here for it.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah. So, underestimated your leadership memoir is a perfect place to start because you talk about that your role as a black leader. Being judged by standards that you didn't set.
And so how did this experience teach you the difference between changing somebody's mind versus changing how they interact with you?
Donald Thompson: Uh, it's very p powerfully framed, and the thing that jumps to mind is I was forced to learn that skillset. Because [00:06:00] as a young person, right, you understand that you don't really have a power dynamic, right?
To change people, right? Yeah. So, um, being the son of a football coach moving around a bit, living in Kentucky, in Pittsburgh, and Pennsylvania, in Louisiana, right? North Carolina, all the different things, right? If you just think regionally in our country, people are wired differently. And so now I'm dropped into those situations and I have to make new friends.
I have to win a spot on the sports team. I have to do all the things. And what I found out is instead of trying to change people from where they're hardwired, I have defined in my mental model, the way to succeed is to really understand what moves them already. And if you can find a positive input on a train that's already going north at 40 miles an hour.
It's easier than trying to get that train to stop what it's doing, stop what it's [00:07:00] thinking, stop how it's wired, go in a different direction. And so since winning was my mindset, since the outcome was my mindset, that's where I was able to more easily adapt to that. Lemme give a specific example, right? So I had a teacher in, uh, Kentucky.
I was in the ninth grade. I was always, even though I didn't graduate from college, uh, sometimes I'll, you know, give a little side eye to the college system and all the things I was academically, um, in the top 5% of my classes all the way through high school. And I got a different grade on an essay in my creative writing class.
Then one of my friends I, I don't know if her name was Sue or Sally or whatever, but we literally looked at what we each wrote, kind of compared notes and edited each other's stuff. He got an A and I got a B minus, and mine was just as good. So what do I do about this, right? How do I navigate this? And so I [00:08:00] remember going to the professor and saying, listen, I think I should have gotten a higher grade, but I don't know that I want to argue about that.
I want you to help me understand what I needed to do next time to make sure my B becomes an A, because I do a work. I'm planning on being a national honor society, all the things, and I want you to help me. And so even though I knew I was getting the shaft in a sense, this gentleman then, because he was a teacher professor, he just started to answer the question.
And he gave me the different things, and I'll finish this one story. I know I'm rambling a little bit, but here's the other thing that we did. So he gave me insight. I improved work. I, what I found out is no matter who you are or what you're doing, you have to write to the audience just because I thought it was good.
Just because he taught a certain amount of creating right of structure, I realized right then you are always having to manage your [00:09:00] communication to the audience you're trying to move. Doesn't matter what you think. If winning is the outcome, doesn't matter how you prefer to say it, it matters the audience that is intended.
And I ended up getting a in the class, and it was that mindset versus complaining to my parents versus blow up the class versus call the guy. All, all the things. I decided that winning was not gonna be confrontation, it was gonna be collaborating with somebody that I knew wasn't on my side.
Bob Batchelor: That's great.
Yeah, that's a great example. And pretty wise way to react in ninth grade. I would not have reacted that way in ninth grade, um, at all. So kudos to, kudos to Young Don for figuring that out. One of the things that triggered this, and you and I don't, well, we don't publicly talk about our politics because that's not really our lane.
We're not political scientists. We have, we have opinions just like everybody else, but we've both worked. I've not been a Cee [00:10:00] o but I've been a C-suite level communicator for a long time. I've consulted with, with big companies, small companies, startups. You've run multiple companies, exited multiple companies, and I think one of our conversations we somehow got on the, the idea of logic winning arguments.
I am na naive. I think, or maybe we should just call it optimistic enough to think, and I've been this way my whole life because I think I'm smart. So I think if I just present the rational, logical, let's use air quotes, logical argument, and somebody, they're gonna then realize whoever I'm talking to, that they're wrong.
They're gonna come around to my point of view. Clearly that is bonkers. Maybe it was true at one point. It's not true anymore. So how should people, leaders, particularly, what should they be realizing here and then what, how [00:11:00] do they, how do they deal with that when it's an employee and they're the boss?
Donald Thompson: Yeah. Most leaders, um, and I'm guilty of this too, you think your positional power equals influence.
And, and we all fall into that trap when really the, the, the name of the game is how do you understand people behind their corporate mask? Right? Everybody puts on their corporate mask when they go to work, right? But there's a whole person behind that mask. There's somebody with different political views.
There's somebody that was raised in a single home. There's somebody raised with two parents. There's somebody who was raised in an affluent lifestyle, somebody that was in the mud trying to dig it out. Like all of the different things that make individuals unique. Yet most management styles are one size fits all.
One of the things that we did early on in one of the companies that, that I built and, and that was really exciting, is when we [00:12:00] built our team, we had everybody on the team create a user guide. We had everybody on the team really go through and say, okay, what are your pet peeves? What are the things that motivate you?
What are the ways that you take coaching, and what are the ways that you shut down? And most people when given the opportunity, and here's the, the, the secret sauce, the cheat code, if you will. Most people, when given the opportunity to express who they are, why they think a certain way, what motivates them, what they care about, they will talk to you.
For a long time. 'cause you ask them about them and then you, and it's not manipulation. And then you can use the information and insight when they've answered these questions to now relate to them in a better way. In a stronger way. In a more powerful way. It's like I was talking to, um, and I'll give another example 'cause this is how I, I frame things.
I was talking to a C-suite leader and this was when. We were doing [00:13:00] DEI work and there was momentum behind it and all the different things. And this individual was a strong, conservative, strong evangelical Christian, and he had questions about where he fit into the conversation. And so he was negative about all of it because he didn't feel like he was included in the conversation.
He was hardwired against. Okay. Now, the only saving grace is that we developed enough rapport where he told me he was hardwired against, which was great because another thing we'll talk about is people that give you the false yes. That they're, oh, they nod their head in the meeting, all the things, and then they leave and go, yeah, I'm not doing any of that.
Right? This individual, this leader, because they were at a strong enough level, he said, I don't get this stuff. I'll go to the meetings 'cause I'm supposed to, but I'm not into it. Right? And I said, all right. Let me take one stab at us finding some common ground, and then if we don't, we don't. And he was like, that makes sense, right?
And so I proceeded to say, you're not into this [00:14:00] DEI stuff, but are you into your employees succeeding and growing and mentoring future leaders? He said, yes. I said, okay. So why don't we just talk about what a game plan looks like to grow and build future leaders? On your team. He goes, I would love to talk about that.
And I was like, then that's what we'll talk about. I don't wanna talk about this DEI stuff either, right? Which is, which is like, and I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, um, okay. But you have to frame things in a way that people's wiring and frequency can relate to it. Otherwise, you are just beating yourself up against the brick wall.
No value, no movement, no accomplishment.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah, and I think, you know, on the, some of the teams that I've led and, and some of the consulting work that I've done, when you meet somebody who's intractable like this, you have to stop thinking. I can convince [00:15:00] them. I can tell you where you are wrong, because especially if it's somebody, if you're in a consulting situation or you're the boss, because then you're also dipping into the power structure.
So you have a natural hierarchy there, and then people just double down on their own position. And so what I've seen you do, and what I try to do also in modeling your success here is stop saying I'm right. You're wrong. That's not the right equation. What I'm trying to do now is say, here's what we both want.
And for you, that could be whatever you want. Uh, it could be you wanna raise, you want more responsibility, and so let's take it out of right and wrong. And what makes you know what you want? How can we get there? And then that makes you more valuable and that's what people want. So I think [00:16:00] that mindset, which you and I also talk about, I mean, we spend listeners, believe me, Don and I spend so much time talking about mindset because I'm trying to train.
Young people that we can then hire 'cause they're awesome. And it's all mindset. It doesn't matter what you learn. Are you ready to be open when you get in the job? Are you ready to ask good questions? Are you ready to bring your right thinking? Are you ready to be resilient? There's no business leader today that's gonna turn those, those traits down.
So I've learned a lot of that from you, Don, take it out of right and wrong and make it about how do we both succeed.
Donald Thompson: I'll use an example, Bob, of our partnership, and one of the things that Bob phrased, and it was a great phrase, and you correct me if I get it wrong, Bob, but Bob, you talked about that you're obsessed with the creative process, right?
Yeah, sure. And, and, and it's, and it's, and it's true, right? Like you just. You [00:17:00] love looking at how storytelling can impact business. You love looking at how history and culture, you just wanna understand that creative process and how it's meaningful and how you can teach it to others and all the things, right?
You also have a certain way that you work. The way you process information, the way you deliver results, and sometimes there's a healthy tension between the way that you work, the timing that you work, and the way that I wanna work as a business leader to go sell something or build something. So here's what I've had to do.
You're hardwired that way. So if I try to push on you to get creative output faster. You believe is reasonable for the quality that needs to be. A, you won't do it. B, if you do do it, it won't be your best work. And A, you probably won't do it right, or C, you probably won't do it. Right. So what [00:18:00] I've figured out, and, and this is 'cause I want this to be about the positives too, right?
It's not just somebody that's Republican or Democrat or somebody that is against the big company and has their own ideas. Sometimes it's just a natural thing is I will say, all right, Bob. Give me your timeline, right for creating this piece, this knowledge asset, and you'll give me that timeline and this is what I've gotta do.
And you understand your process. And I'll say, Bob, at what point can I get an outline? And then you'll give me that. And I said, is it okay from that outline that we create a landing page that says this white paper's coming soon. I'm just like, yeah, that's smart, that's good marketing, X, y, z. What I've learned to do is not wait for the end product to start to do the business engine nearing that needs to be done, but giving you the freedom to deliver amazing work right at the pace that makes sense.
That's your level of expertise. But instead of trying to fight that narrative, I've learned how to take [00:19:00] the pieces that are ready for public consumption early enough. Use those for the business growth model, right? And then give you the space to do your best work. And then because you're a fair person, when I do need something accelerated and the business needs to be the dominant thought over the creativity.
You will buckle up and work harder, do whatever you've gotta do to make that deadline. But I only use that card maybe once every four or five months. And so even though you are hardwired in parts of your creative process, that doesn't make it bad. That's how you build great things. That's like a software engine.
Well, I can't use software engineer 'cause they're going out of business with ai, but when I was working with software engineers in different things in my tech space, it was a similar thing. Right, because you all are building something that doesn't exist, and then the business person usually doesn't understand how to do that, so they always undervalue it.
They always think it can be [00:20:00] done faster, and I've learned to take those bite-sized chunks and then work from there. And so I wanted to share with an audience and example of goodness, but still. Where one of us is hardwired and then how we manage through that. 'cause it's always, it's not always negative, but it's always real.
Mm-hmm. It's a business reality. Yeah. Right. That you gotta work for.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's dead on and it's, and it's a smart way, um, to, to deal with those situations. You and I have both worked a lot on psychological safety. I mean, it's, it's so critical to everything that we believe about inclusive leadership and, and being, you know, important in a company and helping others and et cetera.
We've focused on creating a container, so you walk into the building. You are in a psychologically safe space. You can disagree with me. I follow your mantra. You know, the best idea wins no matter where it comes from. I believe that deeply. I tell [00:21:00] students that all the time. They don't, they don't, uh, argue with me enough.
Oh, I wish they would. They, but they should because they need to practice that. They need to practice what it feels like to be in a psychologically safe space. So what do you do when employees won't step into that container when they. When they arrive, they're already convinced that they're right. So maybe I want to hear what you have to say and then maybe we tell another story about you and I in our, the initial, um, time that we met six years ago that I think will play this out.
But here's some key points just to, for, for you to roll over. I think that in this, in this scenario I just laid out, people don't trust the psychological safety. 'cause they've been burnt in the past or been betrayed by bosses who claim they were psychologically safe and then backtracked. Lots of people think that if you show vulnerability or empathy or, you know, [00:22:00] quote unquote soft skills or emotion, that, that equals career suicide.
Especially as people climb the C-Suite ladder. You and I both know a lot of C-suite leaders who think that they, they could walk through a wall just because of their title. And then a lot of people think speaking up equals disloyalty. So we build the psychological safety, we build a a, a, you know, a virtual environment, and then people don't wanna walk into the environment.
What do we do as leaders there?
Donald Thompson: One of the things is we have to understand that that's happening. We have to understand that. Mm-hmm. The results we're seeing in terms of employee engagement and trying to reduce employee silence. Um, is really strategic to the employee. And I wrote an article on employee silence, and I'll give a couple of really quick snippets.
It's not necessarily because people are afraid. We, we think people are afraid to speak up, it's because they're running the math. [00:23:00] If I speak up in this meeting and I give this suggestion, am I gonna get more work? Right? Am I volunteering for this if I speak up in this meeting? And it makes my law boss look bad.
Am I gonna get punished for that? Right. These are things that they're thinking about. If I give an idea and it's a good thing, is anybody gonna do anything about it anyway? Right. So this is like workplace pessimism, but it's not. Mm-hmm. But it's built on things they've seen in the organization throughout.
So they're making a calculation. When the right time to say something versus putting that idea out there. Then as a leader, we also don't understand all of the informational impacts that are hitting this individual. Right. And so we assume that because we believe we set the environment and we've worked hard to do it.
I'm not, I I think a lot of leaders [00:24:00] are trying to do that. This is your, the core premise of your question is when you've set the stage and they still won't walk through the door. It's because of all of these other factors. So now let's dig, dig into what do we try to do about it?
I like to deal with things directly and thoughtfully. And if someone consistently is not speaking up in a meeting. I may talk to that person offline and simply say this, if you're on the team, if you're on my team, you're smart, talented, and I believe in you because you know my personality enough. If you were not smart, if you were not talented, if I didn't believe in you, this we, we wouldn't be in this moment, right?
So let's establish that I trust you. I believe that you're smart and you're capable. So here's my question. How do I create an environment? Where you feel more comfortable speaking up, because I've just noticed the last few meetings you haven't really participated and things of that nature. And when I've done that the majority of the time, it has nothing to do with business.[00:25:00]
Done. My, my, my mom's little, um, got X, Y, Z going on, got some health concerns and I'm just taxed. One of my kids isn't doing well and I'm just taxed. I'm where it's usually something. That has nothing to do with the core business, my leadership, the environment that is affecting that employee, and just by having that conversation, I've also seen 50% of the time this happens, I didn't realize I wasn't being as participative, and I'll change that.
I wanna work on that. Second thing people will do is I don't really feel super comfortable sharing my ideas in larger groups. I'd love it if I had the opportunity to weigh into things maybe via email, offline. That's really where I feel more comfortable sharing my ideas. So if you maybe created the agenda and then gave some space for comments and different things pre-meeting, [00:26:00] I'd be more inclined to give my feedback in that way than in a group setting, because sometimes in a group setting, when I share my ideas, I feel a little bit judged.
These are things that I'm hearing now, here's the power. I don't even know that if I don't ask the question, if I just assume the person is no longer engaged, I assume the person is X, Y, Z. But I try to really ask people where they're at before I make a lot of determinations of where I'm gonna do next.
And so those are a couple of examples of how I try. To handle it. The third level of this, and this is super important, if you take out a blank sheet of paper and a pen and, and, and I really, I have a lot of little exercises I do for myself and just put trust, and don't trust just side by side, right? And then use it personally.
Who in my organization do I trust? Who in my organization do I not trust? [00:27:00] And you just write this down for yourself. Right. And in doing that, now you look at this and you say, why? And then you write that down in different things. And when you do this exercise, what you start to figure out is your teams doing the same thing with you and others in the organization.
Your job as a leader is to ask your your team specifically what are some ways that you build trust? And when people are asked thoughtful questions directly one-on-one or in smaller groups, they'll tell you. And then once you have that information, you can modify behavior. It's easier for me as a leader to change my behavior than expecting people that are hardwired to change theirs.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah, that's a great point. Yep. Yeah, and it's, it's having the leadership courage to ask that question. And that's why this, this podcast topic's so important. You can't have blinders on. So here's the corollary that's interesting. [00:28:00] As leaders we're spent, we, we are gr okay, so let's just say we, our fuel tank is 110.
Most people's doesn't get to 110, but if I'm burning through 30% of that. People that are not coachable, that I can't, that, that, that no matter what I do, I can't trust them. Then there's gotta be some boundaries set up for those people. The, the way that you said is, is the right thing. Approach them, ask them what you can do to help find out where the mis mis, uh, judgment is on both parts.
And then probably, and, and I don't like to admit this, at some point there's probably like a. Let's work through this for a time, let's work through this for a time. And then at some point there's gotta be like, there's just a mismatch here. You're not happy. I'm not happy. There's gotta be a different path.
Donald Thompson: There's a stage in between that. And I'm, I'm smiling as you're, you're, you're giving that that thought, and I'm excited about sharing this with [00:29:00] folks before I get to the point where it's not the right situation or connection I look at of the 10 things on that person's plate. What are the things that they do consistently and well?
And if there are three or four things that they do consistently and well, I reshape the job.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah.
Donald Thompson: If those, now here's the thing. If those three or four things are valuable enough, so if you changed the job. To the three to four things somebody's good at and they do well, they communicate well or is more independent work, but they're valuable to the organization in that lane.
I change the things I'm asking of them, and then I have stable work with those three or four things. I stop trying to grow them as a leader. I stop try, I, I, I don't have unlimited time to try this stuff. I take my white sheet to paper for, I have a 20 minute [00:30:00] conversation with someone. I, I, I don't give up on people in one meeting, but like, I don't have a lot of time to fix people that don't want to be fixed or, uh, coach people that don't wanna be coached.
Right. Our job is not to fix people. I don't have that superpower, so we don't even have to edit that out. I'm saying I misspoke, right? People that don't wanna be coached. A lot of times I do find that the four or five things, the three or four things people do well and give them more of that, now all of a sudden they're happier.
Now all of a sudden we're getting consistent and more volume in the areas of strength, and then I slow down in trying to grow people. Everyone's relationship with work is different. Some people just want to come in, do their 40 hours, get their gold star, meet expectations, go home and not think about it at all.
As leaders, we think people are wired like us. They wanna move up in the organization, they want accolades, growth, more money, all the things. Right? And it's just not true. And so I do have a point, Bob, and I appreciate the corollary. [00:31:00] I I don't focus on it forever with folks, right? Sometimes you gotta reshape the job and then sometimes people need to be in a different situation.
To your point,
Bob Batchelor: no, that's, that's really, that's really strong and I'm glad that you brought in that point that I wasn't thinking about. Because I'm like soft. I, the, the worst thing in the world for me is the idea of having to fire somebody or like reprimand them. I, I mean, it's just not in my makeup. I mean, like, and I know that about myself, so I try to lead people down paths quicker or something in a different way to try to get them on my side, but also understanding how their work attaches to the business objectives.
So that it doesn't have to be about me, like I don't care, like the, it's always good if the team likes, quote unquote, likes the boss or is at least inspired by the boss. But I don't also want that to be the only thing, you know, we're we, it's weird celebrity like thing, like, you know, you're, you're a little bit famous or they look [00:32:00] up to you up the, up the ladder.
It's, there's a lot of weird human complexity going on. One of the things I think would be instructive, and you and I have told the story before, but I think it works here now, when you and I first met, I was teaching, I was consulting with big companies, small companies, all over the world. And our first meeting was through me being a, a editorial consultant.
And so in that meeting and in those subsequent meetings, I could say anything. Now, let me just be honest with you. As a professor, when you do consulting work, somebody's asking you to come in to fix something. You have the CEO's attention, C-Suite, attention. You can say anything you want. Because you're a prof you don't like, it's, it's extra.
You're doing it 'cause you want to, so you can say anything and they're usually bringing you in to fix a really, we like, we have a really big problem [00:33:00] now. When I decided to leave Academ because I wanted to try something new and you and I started talking about a job, it changed everything in my mind because I wasn't the hotshot consultant anymore.
Now my whole livelihood dependent on my work success, and then all the demons started again coming in my, in my head, all the bad bosses I'd had all. So I basically in, not in a mean way, not in mean spirited, I just didn't realize at time, dropped my baggage at your door because I report to you. And so thankfully after a couple months.
Where we weren't. We, we weren't, it wasn't bad. We just weren't connecting the way that we expected. We had the conversation and we got through this, and it, it really, it changed everything, like my trajectory in helping you and helping the [00:34:00] organization. Went from barely flat lining. Now, uh, let's not be mean, mean-spirited to myself.
It was a little better than that, but it went straight up after that. So I, I just, I think that that's, that's maybe part of this. It's trust and what, what defines our relationship now as creative partners is trust. And we've realized that as we, we are embodiments of trust for other clients. It's worked in this business sense.
So I think that's, there's a corollary there somewhere.
Donald Thompson: I, I think it's, um, you know, one of the things is people listen to us. We are by nature, authentic. Um, we already understand we're pretty bright, but we don't have all the answers, so we're seeking them. And so during that time, one of the things I remember, which is important is we were both honest, that it wasn't where we thought it could be, and we worked at it.
I think that is a [00:35:00] big difference in any relationship when you're leading high performers or building a high performance team. Um, great relationships just don't happen by themselves. And building teams is hard work, but it's worth it. Right? And that's what we create to leaders. And what I want to do is I wanna share, I want to share a definition.
As you and I, this is both a podcast, but like you said, this is hot off the press. So you and I are, are really working through, uh, you know, human nature management and how that, that design and powerful. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out a definition and let you react to it, right? And see if it hits or if you wanna change it.
So, human nature management is how you and I we're gonna position leadership is working with how people actually operate. Not against it. We're gonna reframe culture, work from aspirational, how things should be hope and change to [00:36:00] operational. Here's how humans actually behave and how do we design the systems around that reality?
And that, I think is, um, and then I'll give you the floor. Uh. An important thing because when we are in all of these different meetings and we're all these different topics about really trying to build teams and build growth and psychological safety, I don't think we get to the root of the operating systems of how people actually behave to be able to implement a psychological safety program.
And I think that is the space that you and I are discussing. I've not read it. I've not heard about it. And I think it's a scarier place, quite frankly. When you live in the aspiration, you're not doing the work. When you live in the operation, you're rolling up your sleeves and you're having to really have the tough conversations and really push through to create that space with each individual on your [00:37:00] team.
But let me hush and, and I want you to react to the way that I framed it and see if we are, uh, we're synced there.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah, I really, I really appreciate that definition because just simply the sentence that you said that included aspirational to reality is a place where I would say, okay, I'm not gonna be conservative here.
85% of leaders that I've dealt with in my life cannot make that mental transition. Fast enough to be the leader that they want to be. That's just how I feel about it because back to what you said, when we go to work, we're wearing masks and we develop those masks from what we see, what we experience, what we hear.
So we are all pretending, and I wrote it in the Authentic Leader. A lot of leaders are [00:38:00] Cosplaying, C-Suite, they don't know what they're doing. But are you self-aware enough to understand that you're doing that? And can you then move to reality? Because one of the things that is always stuck in my mind that you and I had a conversation a while ago, you're like, the proudest thing I am is I've employed hundreds and hundreds of people in my career.
You've given them a livelihood. So other people, like, you can't, you can't deal just in aspirational, you gotta go to reality. You've got to get to the root, the, the root of that behavior, and then look at the real outcomes. Okay? So, as myself, I'm the Cee o I'm burning 20% of my mental time on people that I can't change.
I've gotta change, I gotta talk to the leader of hr. Our chief people officer and say, [00:39:00] these, these are the five skill sets I wanna recruit for. This should be at the top of every job description from now on. No, no change from that. How do so? So when we go through our assessment, let's look for the top 20% who are great at this.
Look at the 20% who can be coached toward it, and the 20% who are resistant. And either figure out a way to fix, to not fix, help them coach them, or they gotta go and it's got real. What I think is interesting about human nature management is there's such a realistic, ROI on this in for yourself, your own brain power and how your organ, like you really wanna change culture.
I think this is a step in the right direction. So I think your definition is a, is a strong one.
Donald Thompson: When we're thinking about how individuals behave, one of the things I try to give people space [00:40:00] is thinking about someone's self-interest. When you think about your own self-interest as a part of a team, that's not selfish.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Selfish is taking credit for somebody else's idea. Selfish is not being helpful when you're spo, like there are selfish actors in teams, in sports, in media, in corporations. Mm-hmm. Right. But understanding your self-interest and communicating that is not selfish. It aligns incentives with the outcomes that your leaders want.
Right? Yeah, exactly. It's. If you're given an assignment, I'll, I'll, I'll use, um, this is a powerful example. And so Jackie Ferguson, uh, my wife business partner built our micro video strategy in one of our, um, companies that we built. And this strategy got an award [00:41:00] in, um, I think it was Fast Company.
Bob Batchelor: Yes.
Donald Thompson: Um, and so just highly successful outcome.
The first meeting on this micro video strategy, when we were thinking in terms of content strategy, I said to her, I want a thousand micro videos in the next 90 days on these topics. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I, like literally, like I said, something that like I and I, and listen, I say things boldly with conviction.
And she looked at me and she said, I. No, she, she said, unless you want them to be bad. No, that doesn't make any sense. What is the business objective? And I said, well, I wanna build this repository of content that we can create a subscription service, blah, blah, blah. Right? So I told her the business context, and she says, so what you really want is for us to do 10 videos.
Make sure [00:42:00] we understand the process, understand how we can automate the scripting process, get all of the screen set, what kind of backgrounds, what's the audio? And then once we do 10, then we'll get to a hundred. Once we have a hundred, you should have enough to now start testing this as a business, and then we can build the rest of the repository as we go.
She said in is, is that what what you really want? And I was like. Now I've got a problem. Right. Because what she said is correct. What she said was smart. What she said completely contradicts everything I just asked for. Yeah. Right. So now we got a ego thing, and I'm in the meeting. There's multiple people in this meeting.
Right? So as a leader, when you say you want people's full thinking, you want best ideas, you better mean it. So when they do it mm-hmm. You don't act like a child. Right. And so she said these things in the meeting and then I started smiling. I was like, yeah. That's exactly what I said.
Bob Batchelor: She said, you didn't say that.[00:43:00]
Donald Thompson: And so we ran that play, we tested it, and then we built the architecture for a really, really powerful entry point in creating a new business. But what if she had just tried to do what I said? How would she have been able to deliver high quality work? It would've been marginal at best. The team would've been highly stressed, and it was unnecessary.
It, it, it wasn't even what I wanted because what I wanted is for us to build a business in a smart, efficient, effective way. I just said something ridiculous, and I think leaders need to understand that if you take the time, effort, and energy to build a team of outstanding people that demonstrate and model psychological safety, you win more, you win bigger, you win faster.
In this part. Yeah, I agree in this part. And if you don't wanna listen to it, then hope you're not competing with me for talent, then hope you're not competing with me to win something. [00:44:00] 'cause that's the way I'm gonna do it. And we're gonna beat you.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah. Yeah. You said something the other day in, uh, when we were talking about this in preparation now, quote you, I cannot make someone want to grow.
I can only create conditions where growth is possible and invest in those who choose it. That's, and, and that's like, that's the point. But it amazes me because you and I talk so openly about this now, I, we're not saying it's easy. None of this is easy and you coach executives from all over the world. I coach people not at the same level you do.
But, but help people out and, and try to give them the right, the right encouragement and, and thinking about things in a different way. Leadership is not easy. But it's also not impossible,
Donald Thompson: and it's worth it.
Bob Batchelor: It, yeah, it's worth it. It's worth it. So I think that, you know, for executives, if I'm a Cee o or a Chief Human [00:45:00] Resources officer, or Chief People Officer, I'm, here's the takeaway for me.
Don't waste 80% of your time on the 20% of people who are uncoachable. Don't give up. Be honest about fit. Fit is important, and fit should be a criteria. Sometimes you're gonna have to reduc reduce and sometimes winning is reducing smartly. And, uh, you know, your, your job is about the whole. Don't spend all your time grinding your mental gear on the pieces that aren't working.
So I, I really think you know what you said earlier. Some people are uncoachable, is this person, can we coach them in a timeframe that matters? And can I do this without exhausting myself as a me, as a leader? And then the big picture is, as a leader, can I move from [00:46:00] aspiration to reality? And what can I live in that gap in a way that makes sense.
So that's, that's I think how we're gonna keep building this out and putting a flashlight on its subject that people just aren't willing to talk about.
Donald Thompson: I, um, as we land the plane for this conversation, my closing thought is very simple, that the scale at which you're gonna build organizations and lead is a really direct reflection.
To how many of the people in your organization are operating at their full capacity and people don't operate at their full capacity if you haven't given them the ability to speak up, to be bold, to share ideas and to push against the status quo. And, um, that is a leadership responsibility, right? Like that is, that, is, that is the job is to, is to [00:47:00] get the best out of all the resources that you have available.
And people, people say all the time, right, that my team is our biggest resource, but then we don't lead them in a way that looks at the world from their point of view so that they can shine. And I really appreciate Bob, you, um, sharing this a week or two ago. And I remember as soon as you said it, I said, man, we need to put some stuff out on this right now.
Then, you know, from this conversation and the preparation, I think this is a very unique lane and that's what we're chasing. We're we're chasing the parts of the conversation, right? Psychological safety is a big conversation. Psychosocial risk is a big conversation. Lots of data, a lot of people joining that conversation.
We are trying to find those smart points of leverage that if you understand this human nature management. Then you're gonna be able [00:48:00] to scale right that elevator to the 50th floor and not have to take the stairs. And that's what we're trying to do. Mm-hmm.
Bob Batchelor: Yeah. Yeah. No, Don, I appreciate it. It's, uh, the more we talk about this, the more psyched I get.
I mean, really, I just, I think, I think.
Donald Thompson: It's the thing
Bob Batchelor: you don't uncover a new lane that, that people don't want to talk about. And that container analogy really fits. I mean, you build, you spend, I mean, billions of dollars organizations are spending talking about this stuff, but if the, if the leader them, it's also the leader is kind of anti the fix.
So they're paying for a fix and not. Taking the fix themselves. And so, and it goes back to so many things about inclusive leadership, self-awareness, et cetera, et cetera. And so, yeah, thanks for, thanks for engaging in the conversation and I, I can't wait to start digging in. I, I can see a bunch of things that, that where points of interest, where we're gonna go next with this.
So. [00:49:00] Thanks a lot.
Donald Thompson: All right, brother. Appreciate your time always. And uh, folks that are listening, uh, you can connect with Bob on LinkedIn, same with myself. Um, and, and pretty excited about all the things that we're learning, uh, and with that DT over an out. Thank you for joining us on High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson.
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