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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
Louisa: Hello!
And welcome to S G Squared.
Pastor Steve Gladen pulls from over 25
years of small group ministry experience
to encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen, and learn, together.
Speaker 6: Welcome to SG Squared,
Steve Gladden on Small Groups.
Derek here with Steve Gladden himself.
Steve, can you believe we
are in September already?
Speaker 7: Man, I tell you, fall is so
wonderful, especially when you're trying
to escape the heat of Mississippi.
Uh, but believe it or not, I'm
still in Orange County for a
little bit, so it is, uhâ¦
Let's, let's just focus on this.
It's college football, and
that's all that matters.
Speaker 6: That's right.
The season is here, and, uh, for
nerds like you, you and I are
college football nerds, it sure
makes the year a little bit more fun.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
We, we all-- we both come into it going,
"We made it through the off-season."
And now that I'm living
in SEC country, oof, oof.
It, it is another religion down here
Speaker 6: Uh, uh, an Ohio State fan
living in the deep SEC territory.
Yeah, that's kinda, that's gotta
be-- It's gotta get you a little
nervous in, in the fall season.
Speaker 7: Uh, but they love me so much.
They love me so much
with all their banter.
Speaker 6: And what's, uh,
with where you're at, what's
their top team down there?
Speaker 7: Well, there's, there's two
schools in Mississippi: Mississippi
State and, uh, University of Mississippi,
uh, the old, uh, the, the Rebels.
Ole Miss is the Rebels, and
Mississippi State is the Bulldogs.
Those are the two that Jesus
ordained in Mississippi.
Uh, but sometimes you get the
creep from LSU and Alabama and, you
know, different things like that.
Soâ¦
Speaker 6: One other question
I gotta ask you, Steve.
So being that you've spent, what?
The last 25 years of your life in
Orange County, California, and you're
now deep in the South, like, what's,
what's one big culture shock to you?
Whether it's the weather, the food,
anything, just give us something.
West Coast to the Deep South.
Speaker 7: Uh, they, they love butter.
Uh, that's, that's clear.
Uh, humidity is a real thing.
Uh, but you factor those two
things out and really, you know,
you can eat healthy down there.
Uh, it's not a big deal, soâ¦
But, you know, I must confess,
there's some, some restaurants
that, that cook it up really strong.
But, you know, you get all
that past all that and there's,
it's a lot of similar stuff.
I tell you, Mississippi gets a bad rap.
I mean, it's, uh, they need a better
PR person because it's really good.
But I don't wanna hype it up too much
because I wanna buy a house down there
first at a low price, and then, then,
you know, let the h- the prices rise
because it is really the equivalent
of b- like moving to Nashville
before Nashville became NashVegas.
It's, uhâ¦
You get the right, you know,
city officials in there and
rebuilding, uh, Mississippi and
Jackson, it, it could take off.
It's beautiful down there.
Uh, just not in July,
August, and September.
You factor out those months- ⦠then
it's Orange County all the
way around, so it's beautiful.
Speaker 6: Well, in this episode, now that
we are into the fall season, we're talking
about attendance, metrics, and health.
Um, and so is there any way you
wanna set this exciting new show up?
Speaker 7: Yeah.
I mean, it, it is something, you know,
being in groups for, you know, so many
decades, I mean, I think I'm three and
a half decades into, you know, being
entrenched in, you know, running groups.
Uh, been leading small groups
longer than that, but, uh, you
know, a personal small group.
But, you know, the thing that I would
say is there's a couple things that I
would, you know, as small group pastors
or the, the point person as we're heading
into that, there's so often our identity
gets wrapped around, uh, you know, how
many groups we have, you know, all the
numbers that you can play into that.
And that's why we really wanted to
focus this, you know, this episode,
you know, on attendance, metrics, and
health because they're slippery slopes.
But there's a couple quotes I wanna
read you that have just impacted me,
you know, this week, and it's ⦠One
of them is mystery, mystery.
Geez, it's gonna be a long show.
Sorry, Derek.
"Ministry is what we leave
behind after you follow Jesus."
So as you're talking about your small
group ministry, you know, uh, everything
about that, and if I could re- rephrase
the quote as saying, "Small group
ministry is what we leave behind after
you follow Jesus," is just realizing
how important it is on your identity, on
the authority that Christ is giving you
and the life you live, is to understand
that, you know, what you do in your
personal life is really what's gonna help
in your small group ministry the best.
And then the other quote right
there is, um, "What we believe
about life after death determines
how we live life before death."
And obviously the play on words
there is, you know, after death
and before death that you're doing.
But a lot of times, you know,
our priorities get stuck in the
mundane of sometimes of church
life, and we need to separate it
out of what's really important.
And it really does set up the show
because, you know, when you talk about
stats and metrics and all that, your
identity can quickly float into that,
and who you are can be sabotaged by that.
And then the whole point of, you
know, you get caught up in the grind
of church ministry, and sometimes
you forget what you're living for.
And that's where I'd like to set this
up, is by saying, you know, when I
travel, and trust me, I've almost got
2 million miles in the air, but when I
travel, the last thing that comes into
the pilots and the cockpit is a manifest.
And on that manifest, it'll
always say the number of souls
that are aboard that plane.
And if your airline is concerned with
knowing the number of souls, how much
more we should be concerned about
the number of souls that we have?
Now, that starts the slippery slope,
because all of a sudden when you go to
the numbers of souls, you can be very
caught up in the whole numbers game.
And it's, it's a little bit dicey, but
it's important for you to understand
that you're in the soul business, and
how you take care of those souls is
what, you know, Jesus is gonna look
at you at, at the end of time saying,
"What did you do with what I gave you?"
And understand what the, what you've
been given, but hold that in the balance
of not only how you live about managing
those souls, but also making sure that in
your own life, your own soul is protected
and that you're taken care of in this.
So as we dive into this, Derek, I know
you got a ton of questions, but as we dive
into this, it's gonna be really important
that you kinda look through this setup
of understanding that your small group
ministry that you leave behind is after
you follow Jesus and looking at your own
personal soul care, and then understanding
what you believe about life after death
determines how you live life before death.
And, uh, it's just gonna be super
important that you understand we are in
the soul business, and don't forget that
as we talk through all these little things
about attendance and metrics and numbers.
Speaker 6: Great reminder there.
So as we're starting out fall here-
Mm-hmm ⦠and as small group ministry
leaders are thinking about numbers and
growing their small group ministry,
when we're, um, thinking about these
numbers, what are we exactly looking for?
Speaker 7: Well, I, I think that
the, the first thing is, um,
it's important they understand
that numbers aren't a bad thing.
Uh, I, I would get this all the time at
Saddleback is like, you know, numbers,
numbers, numbers, all you think about is
numbers and, you know, things like that.
And, and what I would look back on
is saying that, you know, it'sâ¦
numbers aren't a bad thing.
Matter of fact, in the Old Testament,
there's a book called Numbers.
And so, you know, God was pretty concerned
about numbers and souls and everything
like that, and we understand that, you
know, every, every number is connected to
a soul that's connected to a story that,
you know, we need to figure out and know.
But I know sometimes people would
also come to me when we were talking
about, you know, you know, what's
the attendance and what, what are
the metrics we're looking for?
At theâ¦
a lot of times that people would say
to us is, you know, "Well, we don't
care about the quantity, we care
about the quality of the people."
And what I would say is that as you're
listening through this episode, they
don't have to be enemies of each other.
Uh, I mean, I have two kids, and let's
just suppose we went on a camping
trip, and let's just suppose that
up in Northern California, somebody
misplaced both children for a little bit.
And so let's suppose that that
somebody was me, just, just,
you know, for story's sake.
And, uh, Lisa and I go looking for both
kids, and we come back with just one kid.
We don't go, "Well, that was the
quality kid, so we can go home."
You know, quality and quantity
mattered in this little story.
And in the same way, what I would
say is that what I would love for you
to understand and get in this whole
episode, and it's been a long lesson
learned for me, is that you have to
focus on both, both quality and quantity.
And that's where your numbers and
metrics can really play an important
part of how you can take care of all
the souls that the Lord is giving you,
but also at the same time understand
that there is a quality factor that
you've gotta play into this equation.
Speaker 6: So if numbers aren't
bad then, uh, then what, what then
are we specifically looking for?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, good
question on that, that side.
Um, one of the things that you
gotta look at for numbers, uh, which
obviously I don't think they're
bad, is that they are indicators.
And for those of you that are like metric
nerds, there's lead and lag indicators
that if you don't know what I'm talking
about, you can dive into that and just
put that in your search engine and, and
learn about that, and it'll help you
start to get some, uh, some trending
pieces in your small group ministry.
But on the more, uh, starting in the
more foundational side of it, is that
you've gotta use data as your friend.
When I'm doing conferences, I always
say, I, I mean, I know that Jesus is
Lord, but one of the important things
that you have to understand is that
in the small group ministry world, uh,
data is lord, small L, not the large L.
And, uh, in that, you gotta understand
that data is your friend, but at
the same time, you've gotta start
looking at and asking what, what
is it that you're looking for?
I mean, when you're getting data,
what, what is it that you're,
uh, trying to find and look for?
Speaker 6: Well said.
So data is lord, little L.
I love
Speaker 7: that Data, little L
Speaker 6: Data is lord.
So if numbers aren't bad and we're looking
at the data, then when we're looking
at the data, what are we looking for?
What would we ask for to see in the data?
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think this
is the, the great point where you as a
small group point person, I would really
push this to you, and I can give you
my experiences of what, what I've had.
But I know a lot of times that we,
we look for stuff i- in big church,
you know, it's, it's like how many
butts are in the seat and how many
nickels are thrown in the plate.
And sometimes we think that that
is, you know, the end-all be-all.
But as we saw through COVID, uh, that
wasn't the end-all be-all because it
really shook up the, the church and
really polarized the church in a way that
it's never been pol- polarized before.
And so, uh, a- as you're looking at
this, I would go back to what our premise
is, and that is about discipleship.
And when you're looking at discipleship,
I would ask myself if I was, if I was
looking for data, I would say, what
gets us towards that end in mind or
what gets us towards being a disciple?
And it kind of begs the question is, what
is success for your small group leader?
Because if discipleship is the name of
the game, and I really hope that is, and
I know in a lot of small group strategies
you can go after a connection strategy
or a discipleship strategy, and again,
this is the quality and quantity piece.
I think both are super important,
but sometimes we leave it at the
doorstep of one or the other.
A lot of times in the connection strategy,
you're just trying to get as many people
connected in a group, and that's your
metric for, hey, hey, you know, the,
the small group ministry is doing well.
And unfortunately, a lot of
churches look at that like they
look at their weekend attendance.
But at the same time too, if you go to
the polar opposite side and go strong
discipleship, it is really about how
many books you read, how many, how
many practices you're doing in that.
And what I would do is look for
a blend of the two of figuring
out what is discipleship.
And since I've been, uh, you know, down at
Pine Lake, it's, in Mississippi, is really
working towards what is that end disciple.
And, uh, you know, they're really honing
in on those attributes of what are success
Maybe in the next episode I'll have a
better lock on that after I get back from
a, a lead retreat we're doing together.
But it, it looks like it's focusing
on, you know, some, some qualities
that we can put our handles on.
And so when you're asking what do you
ask, ask for in intent in, in small group
life, I would say ask for the things that
help you measure discipleship happening.
And that, that for us is talking
more about an individual health
assessment and a group assessment,
which is what we did at Saddleback.
It helps us get the quality and the
quantity that, that is happening
in there that we're looking for.
And so we would, you know, go more
towards looking at what the individual,
how healthy they are and the, uh,
group, how healthy it is, and they're
mirrors of each other so that you
wanna be able to work on that.
And so what I would say is look for
what helps you measure discipleship.
And a lot of times we're stuck in
our small group ministry of just
measuring attendance, and measuring
attendance is the end all be all.
But have to ask yourself the
question, does attendance give
you the health you're looking for?
And so you may wanna look at what
kind of data you're collecting
Speaker 6: I like that.
Does attendance give you the
health you're looking for?
Now we know a lot of our listeners,
uh, take attendance, right?
Uh, so talk to us about
the attendance topic.
Is taking attendance bad?
Speaker 7: Well, a-and again, I
wouldn't say it's a, it's a good or bad.
It's an indicator, uh, of that.
But again, it, it dives much
deeper than butts in the seats.
Uh, I look at my own small group and
there's sometimes where, uh, we're not
meeting or not everybody is there or is
present, but it's how well you're taking
care of them and how well you're helping
them understand what discipleship is.
And so it can be a leading
indicator of do, will you have
the opportunity to do that?
But it doesn't necessarily
mean it's gonna happen.
And it goes back to the, uh, added,
added piece of saying, uh, health, if
your, your metrics of discipleship are
on health indicators, health will get you
the growth you're looking for, or i.e.
the attendance.
But attendance won't
necessarily give you health.
It's just like for myself, if I
go to church every Sunday, but I'm
still partying all the time, I mean,
my attendance record looks great
and I'll get the gold star for, you
know, going 52 weeks out of the year.
But if I'm rotten on the
inside, then that's a problem.
And in the same way in small groups,
sometimes attendance can give you a false
indicator w- or what we call a false
positive of saying, "Oh, they come all the
time, so they must be getting healthy."
And what I would say is you'd wanna take
that one step deeper, which is why we, we
are working on more of a health assessment
and a group health assessment to be
able to get us to those places so that,
you know, we can also know what of our,
what are some of our leading indicators.
But personally, I wouldn't
die on the hill of attendance.
I would die on a, more on how many
health assessments are out there
for the individual and how many
group assessments are out there.
Speaker 6: Well said.
So you've mentioned, uh, health
assessment several times now.
So let's dive a little deeper into that.
Uh, you know, for those who might be new
to leading small group ministry, uh, when
it comes to health, um, can you kind of
explain the health assessment that you
refer to that you built on discipleship?
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Um, you know, at Saddleback, you
know, we had a health assessment
and a group assessment that were
very enlightening to the groups.
And again, I would preface this by, uh,
you, you can do your best at, at getting
things to your group, but it's gonna be
up to them to take some ownership in it.
It's kinda like with your kids.
You raise your kids as best as possible,
giving them the tools, giving them
the environment, giving them the, the
opportunity and the foundation to be
the children that you want them to be.
Uh, but it's up to them to kinda
take it and make it their own.
And in the same way, I'll preface this by
saying with the small group, we'll give
them the tools and the resources and the
curriculum pathway and all those things
that will help them be healthy spiritually
is where the church is going, but we have
to be able to, uh, they have to take some
ownership in it, and sometimes that's
training and helping them move in it.
But again, for us, where I, I would
say at Saddleback where we were and
what I'm building at Pine Lake, looking
very different but very similar in some
regards, is that in, um, at Saddleback,
you know, it was, you know, m- measuring
off the five verbs of the Great
Commission and the Great Commandment.
And in, in some ways at Pine Lake,
it's measuring off different indicators
also found in the Great Commission,
Great Commandment in Acts 2, uh,
but being able to see these metrics.
But here, here's the gist of it.
Whatever you're defining or however
you're defining a, a disciple, you
gotta ask yourself the question:
what are the attributes that
you're trying to assess in people?
And then in your individual health
assessment, what you're trying
to do is have questions that
make them wrestle through those
attributes that you're wanting.
So for at Saddleback, it was on
worship, on fellowship, on discipleship,
on serving, and evangelism.
So for us, because I spent, you know,
almost 30 years all, all by itself,
you know, working with that, I'll kinda
default to that a little bit as I'm still
playing around and we're still trying
to work as a team to define Pine Lake's.
But in that regard, we would say,
you know, what are the attributes
of worship that would reflect
people engaging in those activities?
And then the same thing in fellowship.
What is authentic community, and how
are people engaging in those activities?
In discipleship, we were looking for what
are the, what are the next steps that
our people are taking, and how are they
engaging people to help them grow in that?
In the area of serving, it was
more about how are you serving?
How is your group serving?
And so there's, you know, health
assessments with that And then in
the, uh, area of, uh, evangelism,
how are you engaging in personal,
local, and global evangelism?
So in the individual assessment,
you're asking questions, but you're not
asking questions just to ask questions.
You're asking questions to be able to
give them a pathway to build a planner.
And in the planner, you're trying
to find out, okay, which attribute
are you trying to work on?
Then what's a goal, 30-day goal
that you wanna do to work on that?
And then who's gonna partner with
you to make sure you get there?
And one of the things that this
does is helps you learn more about
is mentoring a one-person thing,
one, one person has all the answers,
or is mentoring multiple things.
And what I found in the area of
partnership is they're selecting mentors
that will help them in a specific area.
So the bottom line is, is in the
individual health assessment, you're
finding out where you're strong
and where your growth areas are.
And coming out of that, you want them to
figure out, you know, what's a, what's a
step where I can help somebody out, and
what's a, an area that I need to grow in?
So you're trying to find, you know,
how do I help, and how do I grow
coming out of the health assessment?
It's a great indicator across the
church if everyone's u- using it.
Fun fact, uh, in the early days of
Saddleback when we were rolling this
out, when we had about almost, uh, I
think it was 17,000 or 18,000 health
assessments done, it was interesting
that over 85% of the people self-declared
themselves weak in the area of evangelism.
So what do we need to work on?
Well, evangelism in that case.
So that's the individual
health assessment.
The group assessment mirrors it.
It's a shorter assessment, whereas
the individual health as- health
assessment was 35 questions.
The group assessment was
only 10 questions, but
reflecting on the same area.
Two questions that were on the area
of, uh, worship, on the area of
fellowship, discipleship, uh, serving
in evangelism And so what that would
do is when the whole group takes it,
it helps you understand, you know,
where the group is deficient and
where, what they need to work on.
And so when you're done taking
the group assessment, what you
do is you have a three-part
follow-through as the group leader.
One is, who is strong in, in those areas
that can help your group grow in the area?
And then what's a curriculum
that we could possibly do that
would strengthen us in that?
And then what's an activity we could do?
And so you're giving the group steps.
And my, my point with both of these is
that if you wanna go into s- uh, the book
"Small Groups with Purpose," chapter 10,
uh, or if you have "Leading Small Groups
with Purpose," I think it's chapter
three, you can learn more about the health
assessment and the group assessment.
That'll take it much deeper.
But the point is, is that I would
much rather measure health than
I would wanna measure attendance.
Not that one is worse than the
other or better than the other,
but that they can work in tandem.
But instead of weekly trying to get
attendance, what I'd rather the group
leader spend their time working on is,
has everyone taken a health assessment,
which we'd end up doing once a year?
And is the group assessment, which
we would do twice a year, being
able to engage them in those areas?
So there's a lot on that.
You can always ping me at
steve@smallgroupnetwork.com
if you have more questions.
But the point that I'm trying to share
with you is that when you're looking
at attendance and metrics and health,
it's gonna be really, really important
that your soul is set strong, but
that you have the tools in place to
make sure you can make this happen.
So Not sure if that made sense,
Derek, but that'll teach you
for asking that question.
Speaker 6: That was great.
Um, you had mentioned two of your books
and key chapters that have diagrams
and basically everything they're
looking for when it comes to the health
assessment and the group assessment.
Where can they get your books?
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Obviously, uh, Amazon's gonna be your
b- be your best way to get it, and
it's "Small Groups with Purpose" and
"Leading Small Groups with Purpose."
But if you happen to be in the Small
Group Network and you're All Access
member, if you're an All Access member,
you can actually get the, the physical
copies of, of those that are in the
book, but ones that you could play around
with and modify them to work for you.
So you actually get it in
a couple different places.
Speaker 6: Cool.
And, um, remind me how people
can become an All Access, uh,
Small Group Network member.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
If you go on smallgroupnetwork.com,
uh, it's a great way for you to getâ¦
There's so many things that are
happening in the Small Group Network now.
Uh, in the fall, we're-- this fall,
uh, coming up in October, we're
launching our weekly coaching calls too.
Uh, if you're an All Access member, it's
just one of the many benefits of being
a member of All Access that you can get,
and you can be a part of that weekly
coaching call that can help you out.
But if you go on, uh,
smallgroupnetwork.com,
there's all kinds of information about
becoming All Access and the, and the
things that will help you kinda get
that and, uh, take it to that next step.
Speaker 6: Very cool.
Well, that is our first show of the fall
season here on attendance, metrics, and
health, and we really hope this, uh,
inspires everybody, encourages you, equips
you to lead better, healthier groups.
And, uh, Steve, unless you have any other
final thoughts, we'll, uh, sign off here.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Just, uh, you know, I would just
w- say, what are those attributes
that are great for discipleship?
Work through with that with
your church leadership, and then
build everything behind that.
Speaker 6: Sounds good.
Thanks for, uh, listening, everybody,
and we will see you next time.
Speaker 7: God bless, everybody.
Louisa: Thank you for listening!
And don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you'd like to go deeper and get
more resources or join the small
group network, just head over
to small group network dot com.
We'll see you next time!