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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Deep Breathe with my husband and love of my life, pastor Matt Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's right. Twenty nine years.
Tammy Brown:I opened it that way, yes, because we just celebrated our 20 wedding anniversary this week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I was talking with one of the sound guys, Christian, and he's 29 years old. And I was like, you could be my child.
Tammy Brown:Yep. I mean, our daughter's 28 Yeah. So we have that. What would you say is one of the things that in twenty nine years, you're loving about this season of marriage or unexpected?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I just think when I was young, I just thought how on earth do you stay in love with somebody that long? And I would just say it's easier to love you now than it was early on because I would say
Tammy Brown:Aw.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Early on, it was so attached to emotion and now it's so attached to appreciation. I just appreciate you, the the wife that you are, the mother that you are, the friend that you are. You know, and I mean, I don't want to dim the hopes of young people everywhere. We're still lovers, it's just you know, it's just got to work a little harder, that's all. So you know, it's just different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I just think the joy of being with one person, and I realize some of our listeners have been divorced, and I don't want to beat you up on that. I just want to give joy to people who just say, hey, look, it's worth it. It's a challenge, as you shared with the worker from Trader Joe's. So, you know, they always ask
Tammy Brown:you We got asked two personal questions. On our anniversary like, what what's the secret?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, yeah.
Tammy Brown:I answered with just putting in the hard work because You said it's a lot of work. And then that's like, we're marrying the right person. And the guy was like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He said I'll take both.
Tammy Brown:I know. It was really good. Okay. Well, we have some great questions Yes. This week.
Tammy Brown:The one in regards to fasting. So here it is from Cynthia here in Riverside. In a modern world, is fasting from a non food item, for example, social media, not really fasting? For elderly or sick people, sometimes they can't fast. So how can we honor God's word when choosing to fast?
Tammy Brown:And then there's a part that's how can we use scripture to find this answer? I don't see where David might have fasted from an for per se an instrument or entertainment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So, Cynthia, this is a great question. Mhmm. And what this is is just Christians adopting a word that's in the Bible and applying it to their modern lives. So another way to say this was I'm going to take a digital detox.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Or I'm going to refrain from TV. So fasting, in its literal sense, just means not participating in something. And so, but in the Bible it is always used for the purpose of eliminating food. But like for Catholics, just had Ash Wednesday. So what they do for forty days leading up to Easter is they eliminate something, and that's really where it comes from.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is a Catholic idea that Protestants have adopted and Christians have adopted, and that's just restricting something for forty days to kind of prepare, prep, get ready for really the life changing experience of Jesus Christ being crucified and raised from the dead. So that's where it comes from. So I don't think that, you know, fasting is a wrong word to use, but I wouldn't say it's the right word to use, because the fasting that the Bible's talking about is the elimination of food. And so we need to think about that. But I, you know, I think we could get, you know, a little maybe too serious about this, and so I think the word is fine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wouldn't tell people, you know, you know, you know it's not actual fasting what you're doing. So it's just eliminating. So she said, for elderly people or sick people, sometimes they can't fast, so how can they honor God's word when choosing to fast? And I would just say, obviously, I don't think the Lord wants elderly people who need calories every day to fast. That's something that we do when we're younger, we're stronger, or if it's something that we feel convicted about.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. It's something that I would encourage. You know, you know that for a while I was fasting every Monday, and that's from food, not from TV or computers or whatever. And it was challenging, but it was also refreshing. There's been periods of times, I think the longest I've ever fasted was seven days.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We had a friend that was going to do forty days and I think he got to like 18 or 19 and got really sick. I've heard of people doing forty days. I mean, literally forty days of no food, but he got pretty sick and had to eat slowly. And so I would just say, you're not Jesus, I know he did forty days, you're not Jesus, but do what the Holy Spirit calls you to do. But I think it's a good thing to help us focus on God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the purpose of fasting is to say no to the flesh and yes to the spirit. So that's the purpose. It's to eliminate, you know, time that we would normally take for eating to focusing and praying and trusting God. And so I think it's a beautiful thing. Growing up as a kid, I grew up Southern Baptist.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We didn't dance, didn't drink, but we did eat. And so fasting was never a thing that we did. And I remember I asked my grandfather, I was like, why don't we fast? And what he said was Jesus never told us to. And I was like, well, that's kind of true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Jesus did fast, but he was made fun of by the Pharisees for not fasting. He was actually called a glutton and a drunkard, which is why I think Baptists just eat too much. But I do think it's a good thing. It's literally been a two thousand year practice and so obviously for elderly people I don't think that they need to do that. I would say we get to do that, Cynthia.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's something that I would encourage you to start with maybe a meal, breakfast or lunch or dinner. It's something that you and I don't do, for those of you who don't know, when you're 50 years old and older, you need 50 grams of protein to launch your day. And so our brains don't work as good, our bodies don't function as good. And so I haven't fasted since I've turned 50. And that's just something I haven't done.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you know, you and I were doing that, what was it, the sixteen hour fast? We did that for about a year, and I think we felt great, but that was more for dietary reasons and health reasons rather than spiritual reasons, but we've since got some information that said, post 50, don't do that. So I hope that answers your question.
Tammy Brown:Lisa Vere says it really interesting. She she says, a diet changes the way you look, but a fast changes the way you see. Yeah. And she really gets into the idea of, like, when you're you deny the flesh, you strengthen the heart. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:When you and I think when it comes to, like, digital detox, like you would say, like, we're eliminate the purposes of of a fast, right, is it is to renew a reliance on God to hear his voice Yeah. To get in tune with the holy spirit. And so it's an interesting concept, I think, in this day and age, like food alone, yes, also, there's so many other things that distract us
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:From hearing God's voice. Our minds are so cluttered. So I personally think it is good. I know it's maybe it's not considered a fast, but to fast or take a break or deny something that becomes a god in our life Yeah. Like social media, like our phone, like maybe sometimes music, like if you just want worship music.
Tammy Brown:For the point of, like, kind of recalibrating how what we see, tuning you know, like like, decluttering our minds so that we could hear from God in the same way that you would when it's just food. So, you know, I would say if you're not able to fast from food in the examples that maybe she gave, you can do some other things that are denying your flesh to be able to connect more with the spirit. So but I I love that about, like, a diet changes the way we see, but a fast changes. Yeah. I mean, diet changes the way we look, but a fast changes
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the way we Thank you for that, Lisa.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Okay. Next question. Also from someone here in Riverside from Chris. What is the difference between an apostle and a disciple?
Tammy Brown:When Paul refers to himself as the last apostle, what is he saying? Why do people refer to themselves as apostles in modern days if Paul says he was the last one?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Chris, this is a great question, and there's a lot of confusion here. So let's just be honest. The apostle Paul is fast and loose with titles. He just uses different titles in Timothy and Titus that he does from Ephesians.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oftentimes different titles from what Jesus uses. And so, you know, I think he just uses, you know, the Roman Empire and the Greek world has various descriptions of leadership positions. And Paul borrows a lot of them. So biblically from Judaism, right, there would be teacher, that's rabbi, and there would be elder, which would be an older person in the community that was seen as a spiritual leader. So those are kind of biblical leadership positions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But there's you know, episcopas, which is bishop or overseer. There's apostle, which is apostolos. I mean, there's what I call myself pastor, that's poimin, which literally means shepherd, and I don't own sheep. But that's what it means. And so there's just a lot of terminology that the Apostle Paul uses that are interchangeable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he never just uses one word or another. And so, you know, churches focus on this. Some churches have elders. Some churches are run by pastors, like my friend Lacey Sykes, who's on our board. You know, he's called a bishop at his church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So just know that there's not one specific word that is used for leadership throughout what Peter says, what John says, what Paul says, and even Paul uses them interchangeably. So just know that there and I'm saying that tongue in cheek. He's playing fast and loose with that. So what is the difference between?
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Like how would you define what is an apostle? Like you said it asking for a friend right now. Yeah. Also me, I'm the You said apostle stands for apostolos.
Tammy Brown:So Yeah. Can you break that down for those Yes. Of us who like me that don't know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So it literally means messenger. I mean, that's what it means. So if you think about it, an angel is a messenger from God. An apostle is a messenger to people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's kind of, and a lot of times Christians, when we think of an angel, right, we think of a thing. When really the term angel is an adjective describing what they do, not who they are. So, and so we get that confused a lot, that we think of angels like a category, and really an angel as a description. Like, if the person that delivers your mail, they're not a post, what do they call them, mailman, mailwoman, post person, what's the new language? Postal Postal worker, there we go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You know, but that's not who they are, it's what they do. And so that's what an angel is. An angel is not who they are, it's what they do. Interesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So in the same way, an apostle is not who they are, it's what they do. So let's let's talk about that word. So I think his question is why are some apostles and and then others disciples? So let's man, there's
Tammy Brown:Like what's the difference between apostle and disciple?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So historically, apostles are the 12 disciples, which I and I understand why that's confusing. Mhmm. Because we're all disciples. So we're all called to be disciples, we're not all called to be apostles. So there's the 12 apostles, so those are the ones that Jesus handpicked, minus Judas.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Judas dies, and then in the book of Acts, they choose Mattathias to replace him. So those are called the 12 disciples, and they're called the 12 apostles. And then, in the Bible, we have two additional apostles. We have James, the half brother of Jesus. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't know exactly how he becomes an apostle, he just becomes the leader of the church of Jerusalem, and they're just like, look, you're Jesus' brother, we're going to go with that. So he becomes really the leader of the Jerusalem church post death of Jesus Christ, and we actually see this in Acts chapter 15. The apostles come to debate, you know, do Gentiles have to become Jewish to be followers of Jesus? And James makes the final decision. So even in that, he's kind of the apostle of the apostles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then we have the apostle Paul, who he says here is the last of the apostles, and we'll talk about that for a So the question is, what is the difference between apostle and disciple? So we're going to hold on disciple. When Paul refers to himself as the last of the apostles, what is he saying? Okay. He doesn't mean he's the last, in other words, there's no more apostles after him, what he means is he's the last of what I would call the Mount Rushmore of Apostles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't know how many presidents have we had, 47? Donald Trump is the 40 president? So there are not 47 presidents on Mount Rushmore. So let me see if I can get this right. We have Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, who am I missing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No one knows in my audience. Have illiterate people working at SoundShores. Washington, oh, Jefferson, Thomas Yeah, so we have talk when we talk about, before we use the word GOAT, like kids talk about who's the GOAT, the greatest of all time, they used to say the Mount Rushmore. So who's the Mount Rushmore of the greatest baseball players? Who's the Mount Rushmore of basketball players?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, there's an actual Mount Rushmore president, and what we mean by that is there are presidents and then there's just that group. So Mhmm. No one's like George Washington. He could have been a king, a lot of young people don't know that, but he chose not to be a king. There's Thomas Jefferson, who's just, let's be honest, smarter than the rest of us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't realize this, but Teddy Roosevelt's the reason we have national parks. There's a reason that America hasn't destroyed all of our rivers, trees, so he's pretty amazing, and kind of a Rambo. Like, if you check him out in his early days, he was a legit dude. And then we have Lincoln, who, you know, got rid of slavery, and I think that's pretty profound. So there are all kinds of apostles, and then there's this group of 12.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The 12 that Jesus, well, the 11 that Jesus picked, and then the one that was picked by the 12 after the death of Judas. Then we have James, and then we have the Apostle Paul. So this group of, I guess it would be
Scott Schutte:plus
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the 15 famous ones, and everybody forgets Mattathias, and then you know, can't really discount Judas because he was handpicked by Jesus. He did fail, but so that 15 are kind of the super famous ones. But then we have apostles that are sent out. And so in the book of Romans, there's a woman who is, it says in Romans 16, who is well known amongst the apostles. Now, there's a debate here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And for churches who do not allow women to preach and lead, what they translate that is, is her name is Junia, that she was known by the apostles. Like, everyone in this room knows you. But there's another way to translate that, which I think is the actual meaning, is that she was well known amongst the apostles. And so what I think it means is she was an apostle. She was a person who was sent out and was leading in the early church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I, you know, Romans, or excuse me, Ephesians four twelve, God gave apostles, then prophets, then evangelists, then pastors, and then teachers. So when Paul's writing to, said pastors, when Paul's writing to the church of Ephesus, notice he did not mention elders. But elders is mentioned in one Timothy, two Timothy. So there are these leadership positions that continue. Most people today do not use the word apostle, although I do have a friend, someone that you know, that was calling himself an apostle, and I recommended that they not do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the reason for that is I think apostles sounds self important. And I don't think that that's what Christians need to do. Especially in our tradition. So we're not Catholic, right? Catholics have priests and they have the Pope.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So they have these esteemed positions of power. In my tradition, we don't like that, right? The church is the body of Christ, we are all saints. Mhmm. And you know, we have a leader, but the leader is They're playing a role.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, they're playing a role. They're not much Any more special. Yeah. So so so some churches still do have apostles, but really, Chris, apostles are missionaries. I mean if you look in your Bible, there's no word missionary.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's apostle. They're sent out to plant churches, to establish, to lead people to Christ, to plant churches and oversee organizations. That's what a missionary does. So missionaries are modern day apostles and you know, that's just where the modern churches kind of got it confused, but I think missionaries would feel, and many of them don't like that word anymore, by the way, but they would feel uncomfortable with being apostles, which can mean to be sent out. To be sent out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's what the word literally means. So what is the difference between an apostle and a disciple? We are all disciples, so I'm pointing to everyone in this room. So there's two, four, five, six, there's seven of us in this room. We are all disciples.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're all called to follow Christ, serve Christ, love and know Christ. But as disciples, we have spiritual gifts that create roles. Some of those roles are apostles. They are leaders above others. Some are prophets, the ability to speak either through preaching or teaching.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some are evangelists. And when I was a kid, we used to have evangelists that would come to our church. And these were people that were really, really good at soul winning. Think about like Greg Laurie wouldn't pastor Harvest. What Greg Laurie would do is he would go to individual churches as an evangelist doing what he did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So before the Crusades and Billy Graham, you would go to local churches, and they would kind of have mini Harvest Crusade nights, and that's kind of what it was. So Greg Lorre really kind of changed that role where he's operating as an evangelist and as a pastor. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying he kind of changed it a little bit. So what's the difference is we're all disciples, but some of us are apostles. Some of us will be prophets.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some of us will be evangelists. Some of us will be pastors, and some of us will be teachers based upon gifts. And let me say, that's not all of the leadership gifts. If you look at Romans 12, there are more leadership gifts there. And that's what I'm saying, throughout scripture in different areas, we see listings.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by the way, it doesn't mean that the Bible lists all the gifts. It's not saying these are all the gifts, it's just saying these are the gifts that we're listing here. I believe that there are many gifts. You have the gift of hospitality. You're so good at connecting people and making people feel warm and welcome, which by the way, the Apostle Paul says is a requirement for a pastor.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They must be hospitable to having people in their home. So to be a pastor, one of the gifts that you have is required. You and I have both met pastors that do not like people in their home. But they know scripture, they're very smart and they can communicate. And it's so interesting, it says they must be hospitable, but they need to only be able to teach.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And oftentimes, we pick great teachers, but they don't really like people. And we've had this conversation with our son. Mhmm. He's thinking about ministry. You have to love God and people to be in ministry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So I would say apostle is a position and a title. Disciple is something that we're all called to be. And so I don't know if I
Tammy Brown:Why would Paul say I'm the last one? Like he's just calling it like basically Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When you
Tammy Brown:look
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm
Tammy Brown:the last of the ghosts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is very tricky. And if you Google this, there's a lot of people who write and say he was the last apostle, and so no one will ever be apostles after him. I think it's a misreading of the text. I think if you look at it in context of Corinthians chapter 15, he says, I'm the least.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's really what he means is he's the smallest, he's the tiniest, and he also says this, we're talking about disciples, he calls himself the least among the saints. Those are disciples. So he's the least amongst the saints, and he's the least amongst the apostles, and then he says that the Lord Jesus appeared lastly to me. So he says, the resurrected Jesus appeared to the 12, then he appeared to James. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then he said, and then lastly, he appeared to me. And so that's what I think he means.
Tammy Brown:So the interpretation is not necessarily like, I'm the last one, there will be no more. It's more of like positioning himself as lowly as
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:Not important of humility?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes and no. So, yes, you're exactly right. But there are, like I said, 15 unique Mount Rushmore apostles. Who were they? They were the ones who saw the resurrected Jesus.
Tammy Brown:Yeah, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so in one Corinthians, yeah, one Corinthians 15, he's really arguing that there's a resurrection, and he's saying these Apostles are all verifying this because they've seen the risen Lord. to the 12, then to James, and lastly to me. That's what he means. And so if you think of the book of Acts, he's on the road to Damascus to persecute the church, and Jesus appears to him. And so that's what I think he means by last.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Chris, yes, he's the last of a unique group of apostles. There will never be any more like them. It's the Mount Rushmore of Christianity. However, the position and the gifting goes on. I don't like it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I could call myself a bishop. Why could I do that? I oversee 14 churches. Okay, I'm not just a pastor, I'm an overseer of pastors. I just don't like that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Beneficial for me to hold title. I don't think that's reflective of who Jesus wants me to be and has called me to be. The older I get, I want to just be Matt. I just want to be Matt. You can call me pastor, and I think that's fine, because pastor's a lowly position.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a shepherd. That's what it means. I think it's a humble position. In some churches and traditions, it's elevated. I think that we've not done that here at Sandals.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't elevate it. People don't stand in awe of pastor like they do in other traditions. And that's, you know, some is good, some is bad. I think we need to appreciate, you know, those who go into the profession. But, you know, so.
Tammy Brown:That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah, know. That was a long answer. So thank you, Chris.
Tammy Brown:I think it was a it's a complex question and that it's that was a great exploration of it. So thank you for that. Okay. This final question for this episode comes from Andrews in San Bernardino, and it says, how do we disciple people that we know personally, and how do we begin to draw people into relationship with Jesus and start discipleship? You know, we've been talking so much about discipleship Right.
Tammy Brown:Here at Sandals recently, and I've even been asked, do we have a new vision? Is the vision not being real anymore? Is it discipleship? And I had answered that question sort of like, no. Being real was always a means to an end
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:With discipleship. It wasn't in place of it. It was the way our pathway when we felt God calling us to start to to discipleship. If that's where it starts, it's how we worked out our discipleship process. And so I love the love these questions speaking to discipleship, but so how do we disciple people we know personally and then draw them into relationship with Jesus and start discipleship?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So let's take this one by Yeah. So how do we disciple people that we know personally? So one, you have to be a disciple. So you can't I remember one time, and I'm not proud of this, I almost got into a fight at LA Fitness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I was on the bikes and spin class and there was three guys next to me. And literally this guy says, no, you guys come over to my house, we'll smoke a bowl and we'll study the Bible. And I'm just like, I'm just losing my mind. And so I don't even remember how I got off the bike, but I was off the bike and I was in the guy's face. And I was a little, I'll say, I was a little hostile, but I'm like, that is not Christianity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That is not what we do. And I confronted him and challenged him, and it it got ugly really, really fast. But I just told him, I was like, look, man, I'm a pastor of Sandals Church and you know nothing about discipleship. I don't think you are a disciple. No, this is like, this is like ten years ago.
Tammy Brown:Medium Matt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, medium Matt. So yeah, I, you know, I don't care. I'm not going to interject if somebody's talking about politics or sports or whatever. But you, if I hear you saying we're going to do drugs and study the Bible, I have to interject myself. I got to stand before the Lord on that one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would say is, are you a disciple? And that doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but you have to know something a little more in order to teach people where they need to be. And so you've got to be serious about this yourself. We have to be careful that many of us are drawn to positions and power. It is your sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like we talk a lot about the sin of lust, you know, and pastors that fail because of adultery or a secret addiction to For some pastors, their sin is the pulpit. They love the power platform. And what I would say is we have to be careful, and you have to ask yourself, am I drawn to the mission or am I drawn to the position? If you're drawn to the position, you're not ready for the mission. You know, I came into ministry very reluctantly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I watched my dad struggle, my dad was a pastor, things were very difficult. I did not think it was glamorous at all. I would say the Lord called me into ministry kicking and dragging and crying. Because it is hard to manage and lead people. It is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I was drawn to the mission, not to the position. So if you're truly drawn to the mission, great. Are you studying your Bible? Are you reading? Are you praying?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Do those things for a period of time, and then I would say, hey, I'd love to share with you what I'm learning. So what I would say is go through our catalyst training at Sandals, then I would say maybe go through our study on Luke or Acts or Ephesians, I don't know what are the other studies they are, and then invite some friends and say, hey, let me share some of the things that I've learned. I've gone through some catalyst training, stay humble, I'm learning, let's go through this together, and let me teach you some of the things that I've learned. That's discipleship making, and you just kind of keep doing that. And so, you know, when I started Sandals Church, I was learning things the week before I was teaching them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I just, it was such a young group. So I wouldn't recommend that, I would say learn a little bit more than I did, because I tell people at Sandals Church, we built the plane while we were flying it. Mhmm. I don't recommend that. That was a little scary.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But
Tammy Brown:I think discipleship, correct me Yeah. As you see fit Yeah. Obviously. Carefully. It's so nuanced because you can't take somewhere someone someplace you've never been.
Tammy Brown:Right. People do it all the time, but it's it doesn't Yeah. It doesn't stand the test of time. And so I agree of just, like, part of it is nuanced where it has to be sort of an outpouring of what God's doing in your life and your willingness to share that. Because God, I know a lot of people that follow Jesus, are reading their Bibles, love him dearly, but they're like, that's for me.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. And you do you, and I'm doing me. And discipleship is that nuance of like, there is intentionality to it, but doesn't have to be so regimented. Like, we're reading this book, and we're answering these questions, and you're checking off these I think that's where we go sideways so quick. The nuance to me seems like, here's what I'm learning about God, what he's changing in me, what he's developing in me, and then having the courage and intentionality with other people to be like, let me share this with you.
Tammy Brown:Let me be real with you. Yeah. And the nuance is saying, and and what's he doing with you? How can I encourage you as you're doing that? There you know, it there's an intentionality, but not a rigidity to it.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. And then the nuance of here you know, just being real about where we're at, what we're learning, where we've got it wrong, what we've learned from that, what we got it right. Yeah. You know, being a very good question asker, I think, is one of the nuances of discipling people about, tell me about your time with God. Well, the conviction in that's gonna come with, I actually don't have it.
Tammy Brown:Okay. Well, how can we get you having it? What can you like, what should tell me what you're reading. Well, let's start reading this, and we'll chat about it. Like, it's just such a fine line between making it so rigid to discipling other people.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. The nuances is your own Yeah. Journey, and then interweaving that and offering that with other people. Like, how would you describe doing that? Because you just described it really well as a pastor, but most people, myself included, our journey isn't us pastoring people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's I mean, so we offer this class at Sandals called Exploring Faith, and what I would encourage you to do is get involved with that, and it's a great way. So how do you begin to draw people into a relationship with Jesus? I would just say a class like that where we just get together as a couple friends, and and you just say, hey, I want to talk about Jesus. But you can't Mhmm. You have to allow people to discover and learn on their own and it's
Tammy Brown:That's where the question asking comes in. Yeah. Because when they have to answer it for themselves Right. They usually believe the answer they come up with.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so what I would say is so the way that we draw people into discipleship is one, through curiosity. People need to have curiosity to God, to their relationship. Like the Like none of us loves to study something or watch something if we're not curious. And so we can say something like, hey, if you're ever curious about God or your faith in Jesus or you know, what you're going to teach your kid or what you believe yourself, I have a couple friends and we get together and we talk about faith for people who maybe are uncertain.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then you got to let them explore, you got to let them disagree, you got to let them figure it out, and then they come to the place where, okay, want to learn. You got to remember, Jesus did this all the time. He would go and he would preach and he would allow people to listen to what he was saying, and he allowed them to make their own decisions. The people that chose to follow him were disciples, and the people that chose to listen to him and go home and disagreed were not. And he's always okay with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, I would just encourage you to do that. But just be upfront with people and just say, you know, I'm convinced that Jesus Christ is God. I'm convinced the Bible is the word of God. You know, so I don't want to debate that, but I want to help you as you figure out what you believe, what you think. And then once they're ready to follow Jesus, then it's a real Now you're really actually making a disciple.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But people are really drawn to curiosity about God or your church. Yeah, I wonder what this is like. But what they're really drawn to is when they see the love of Jesus in you for them. So I really care for you, I really love you. And I remember years ago, do you remember the Zimmers?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So we had this couple, and they were older than all of us, which they're probably fifteen years younger than I am right now, but they were older and they were not Christians. And we were doing this, I would have called it a Bible study then, but what I would say is exactly what Chris is saying. We were allowing them to be curious about discipleship. And I remember we were talking, you guys are to kick out of this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He had all of his pornographic magazines on the table.
Tammy Brown:Like coffee table books?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like coffee table books. So it was like Penthouse, Playboy, these were not Christians. And I'm a Christian guy and I just said, hey, would it be okay if we took these magazines off the table while we had the discussion? And he was like, oh yeah, sure, no problem. And they moved them aside and we would talk about God, but we really cared for them and loved them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I remember Suzanne said, she said, I really love what we're doing. She said, the only part I don't like is all this Jesus stuff. But you understand? But eventually she became a Christian. She gave her life to She was Jewish.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She gave her life to Christ, but nobody slammed her or put her down or called her to repentance. We just loved them and then we're there for them. And I remember when they lost their daughter in a car accident, and it was terrible. And I remember, you know, standing in that same house with the magazines when a police officer came over to say, you know, your 19 year old daughter is dead. I remember just how awesome it was for us to be there and love them through that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm so sad that it happened. It was, it was awful. It was probably the death that I remember a young pastor in our Yeah. And it shook us as a congregation, but we were able to love them through that and, you know
Tammy Brown:Well, and they had a hope because they knew their daughter now knew Jesus Yeah. And where she was. And I think what I would add to that, for me personally, is just and I have to remind myself to do this even more, but we all talk about our lives so much. Whatever. Here's what's going on in my life.
Tammy Brown:I think what Christians don't do well, what I don't do well, is attribute so much of what's happening in our life to what God's done. You know, back in the day, like, real churchy talk would be, like, sharing our testimony. Right. But it's really just sharing your story of, like, here's where my life was. Here's what God's done for me.
Tammy Brown:Here's what Jesus has saved me from myself. Here's where I put my hope. Because that's what's contagious. That's what starts that curiosity. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And I think the discipleship path is saying, here's what I know to be true. And people see that in us when they see our joy, when they see our hope, when they see the freedom of us not carrying the weight of our sin and our shame, and they're like, whatever that is, I wanna know about that. That's like the gateway to it. But it starts from those of us who know Jesus and have Jesus in our lives and have experienced his love and his salvation. We need to be talking about that Like, here's here's like, we all have heard about this concept of it.
Tammy Brown:Let me tell you about Yeah. Me. And here's the time he answered a prayer, and here's the time that this happened that makes no other sense but God. Yeah. And so just I think as as Christ followers, all of us need to make sure that we have an intentionality of weaving in constantly that spiritual conversation and not just like, hey, this thing happened.
Tammy Brown:It was really cool. It was random. Or like, I was sick and then I wasn't.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Or Yeah.
Tammy Brown:You know, and being like, no. Remember, we all gathered for prayer, and this thing that doesn't make sense happen, and that's the God I love that's bigger than anything on this earth. And that's discipleship. Yeah. It's just, oh, and this is how I become more like him.
Tammy Brown:This is what I'm free from. And so it it is so nuanced in doing it, but also so doable when we're just sharing who we are and what God's done for us. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I love that question, and I'm hoping that everybody listening will really have a heart to say, who can I disciple? Mhmm. And and all discipleship is, right? I have a love for God, and I know that God loves me, and I believe that he loves you Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And has a wonderful plan for your life. I mean, that's not me. That's the Navigators from the 1960s. That's how the Jesus movement really started. It gets very little credit, but they went around, you know, just sharing this love and hope with Christians who, or non Christians, for where people had never heard that during the Vietnam War, the height of all of the race issues in the South, and the Watts riots.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, things were very very difficult, and you have these people walking around saying, I believe God loves me, he loves you and he has a plan for your life, and literally boom. But it's allowing people to process that in their own time. I think early on Matt Brown was way too quick to salvation. And if I could go back, what I would say is I would leave time for God to work. Don't ever compromise on the salvation You have to admit that you're a sinner and only, excuse me, Jesus can save you, but you need to be really sensitive to the Holy Spirit as to when that moment is right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I feel like early on I rushed it too quickly. Now I'll say this, you can also miss the opportunity when God is ready to close the deal. So you got to be sensitive on both ends. Am I rushing it?
Tammy Brown:That's the nuance.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Or am I missing it? Because, you know, I was talking with Pastor Eric Sallie about this. You know, you got to think about when we love somebody, like, you know, when you, we've watched our kids have broken hearts, you've had a broken heart, I've had a broken heart. When you profess your love from somebody and they say no, you walk away. Here's what I think we wrongly believe as Christians, that Jesus is just going to keep coming back and coming back and coming back, and having his heart broken over and over again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What we need to encourage people is, you know, do you believe in this moment that Jesus loves you? If they do believe that, are you ready to respond to that? Because here's what I think happens. As Christians, we're not sensitive to that moment and they miss that opportunity, and they may never have Jesus knocking at that door again. We want to believe, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He just keeps coming back. And I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm just saying it's a personal relationship, and we have a God who's offended. And so if this is the moment of salvation, today is the day of salvation, we got we got to be sensitive to on both ends. So don't rush it and don't miss it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now I've scared everyone to death. So
Tammy Brown:Nice. Good. Well, these are such great questions today, and I just wanna thank everyone for listening, who's joining us. And as always, if you have questions that you want Matt to answer and us to talk about to maybe provide some further clarity for you, please send us in. Subscribe to the debrief.
Tammy Brown:Follow us. Leave a comment. Send in your questions. And as always, if you find this ministry to be valuable, to support it at sandalschurch.com/support, and we will talk to you guys next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you are going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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