3 Career Hacks You Should Know About

Here's two guys without a job doling out their top 3 career hacks. Don't worry, they had jobs when they used the hacks - and some of them they just observed.

But they had one thing in common: They worked. Give it a listen and use it to guide your teams or your own career trajectory.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (03:52) - 1: Chaos is a ladder
• (10:47) - 2: He who controls the spice controls the universe
• (11:39) - Own a number
• (14:52) - Efficiency is a Superpower
• (16:09) - If you can't own a number now, own this
• (17:25) - Challenges and Strategies in RevOps
• (20:50) - 3: Last person standing

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Creators & Guests

Host

Mikkel Plaehn

Marketing leader & b2b saas nerd

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

[00:00:00] Toni: Hi everyone, this is Tony Holbein. You are listening to the Revenue Formula with Mikkel and Toni
[00:00:05] In today's episode, we share three career hacks that you can use to get to the next level. Enjoy!
[00:00:13] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:00:16] And it's running.
[00:00:17] This is like the good
[00:00:18] old days. I have a laptop on the floor recording
[00:00:21] this
[00:00:22] whole thing. That's like amazing. That was
[00:00:24] Toni: and then it says boop right out of energy. Yeah. No no. like, storage. you know,
[00:00:30] Mikkel: So the, so my parents in law, they basically wrote out a
[00:00:34] message to the family,
[00:00:35] It was a picture of them
[00:00:36] in,
[00:00:36] The house in Sweden, only lit up by
[00:00:41] candles. And then my father in law was like, yeah, so I tried to do some stuff with electrical,
[00:00:48] unhappy, unhappy outcome.
[00:00:51] Toni: It didn't work
[00:00:52] Mikkel: No, it
[00:00:52] didn't work out. And basically, so it wasn't his fault. Apparently there was an installation
[00:00:57] mistake
[00:00:57] from previous. So basically it, it, it fried everything. I'd like, the refrigerator. The oven, everything, all the electrical that was wired in,
[00:01:06] fried.
[00:01:07] So, I mean, the level of technical difficulties you and I have just restarting this
[00:01:13] recording with recording from my place, by the way, in case you
[00:01:16] were watching,
[00:01:18] you
[00:01:18] Toni: If you're watching, we are sorry for the weird
[00:01:20] Mikkel: was the point. I want, I wanted to apologize for
[00:01:24] the quality level, just dropping a little bit.
[00:01:27] It's just a relapse. We'll come back. We'll bounce back.
[00:01:30] Toni: But also this is a perfect reason for you to check out our YouTube channel and maybe subscribe or subscribe here on wherever you're watching,
[00:01:37] or listening to
[00:01:37] Mikkel: And maybe just go a few videos back to really get a feel for
[00:01:40] that like quality
[00:01:41] and depth of
[00:01:42] Toni: and then the drop
[00:01:43] Mikkel: Yeah. Now I'm like, I'm worried that we
[00:01:45] aren't even in
[00:01:46] Toni: People people were telling us
[00:01:48] when we had them on on the guest shows was like wow
[00:01:50] This looks like oh, this is a professional studio
[00:01:53] Yeah, yeah, it's like, oh did I forget to put my
[00:01:59] pants
[00:01:59] Mikkel: on? Yeah, exactly
[00:02:00] Toni: you know, we have all of those technical issues. People are now subscribed to our
[00:02:03] YouTube channel because immediately
[00:02:04] when I said it, they're just like, you know what, let's stop this.
[00:02:08] I need to put down my phone. I need to go to
[00:02:09] another, you know, where, where's this thing? And, and now we're waving to the camera to welcome those new viewers
[00:02:16] Mikkel: The old two
[00:02:16] of them.
[00:02:17] Toni: So, I mean, as, as people know
[00:02:19] Mikkel and I are kind of out of a job right now.
[00:02:22] Mikkel: and kind of terrible with all this. So,
[00:02:26] Toni: you know, we've been thinking maybe to take some you know, to pivot our career a little bit. Maybe go somewhere else.
[00:02:32] And I think what we have learned today, Mikkel is definitely not going to go into
[00:02:38] any kind of video editing career, anything like that. I think
[00:02:42] Mikkel: And you are definitely
[00:02:44] Toni: that's close to you.
[00:02:45] And
[00:02:45] you're
[00:02:45] Mikkel: going to
[00:02:46] go into the email marketing career
[00:02:48] either.
[00:02:49] Toni: So
[00:02:50] Mikkel: So I think we're good.
[00:02:51] I
[00:02:51] think we're good. But
[00:02:52] anyway, I think there are some hacks to basically grow your career. If you do, if
[00:02:57] you're fortunate enough to
[00:02:58] have a job,
[00:02:58] unlike us, then there are some hacks that at least I've employed.
[00:03:03] I think you've
[00:03:03] employed. People we work with have employed and we just wanted to walk through them because they're not going to
[00:03:08] Toni: Was that your way to prove that we have experience
[00:03:10] in this
[00:03:10] Mikkel: Yeah,
[00:03:11] Toni: No, I mean, no one, no one else we know has been
[00:03:17] Mikkel: it's also like, what's the hack?
[00:03:18] Not
[00:03:18] having a job? I don't get it. This is weird,
[00:03:20] guys. But anyway, we have some hacks for you if you want to.
[00:03:24] Toni: are the best to
[00:03:25] give career advice right now.
[00:03:28] Mikkel: But anyway, we have
[00:03:30] been C
[00:03:30] Suite. Both of us,
[00:03:32] We have
[00:03:32] grown the career ladder and we've also seen what other folks have done. And what we wanted to do is just share some of those career hacks, actually, whether you're in
[00:03:39] revenue operations, marketing, sales, CS, does not really matter. If you want to grow that corporate ladder or the
[00:03:44] startup ladder
[00:03:45] or whatever, we're going to walk through three different
[00:03:48] tricks, tips, hacks, whatever.
[00:03:51] you want to call it.
[00:03:52] And the first one. Just to realize, like our
[00:03:57] good friend, I think Littlefinger is his name, from, if you watched that show way back Game of Thrones,
[00:04:03] Chaos is is a Ladder.
[00:04:05] Toni: Chaos is, is that actually a, is that from him the
[00:04:08] Mikkel: It's from him,
[00:04:09] Toni: the quote. Oh,
[00:04:10] Mikkel: And he, and it's so apt, you know, because he
[00:04:12] Toni: I got your second thing, but
[00:04:13] not the first one. Okay. No, no, no. He's
[00:04:15] Mikkel: creating so much chaos, almost in like everything he does. It seems you just want to stir
[00:04:19] shit up and then see what can I, what can I do now to benefit from this chaos
[00:04:24] that's happening? and
[00:04:25] no one kind of knows.
[00:04:26] Toni: is, is your first advice to um,
[00:04:29] Mikkel: Create a lot
[00:04:29] Toni: create a lot of chaos?
[00:04:30] No,
[00:04:31] No,
[00:04:32] Mikkel: No, It's, not. It's uh, when chaos happens, when chaos happens you got to realize that opportunities will present
[00:04:40] themselves, right? I think the best example I have is.
[00:04:43] Way back when you and I worked
[00:04:45] together at this
[00:04:46] social media management company,
[00:04:48] we went through a reduction in the force, which is a polite way of saying a lot of people
[00:04:52] got shit canned because of, you know, a cock up in in
[00:04:55] leadership, basically. So a lot of people got fired. And what
[00:04:58] happens when you let go of, let's say a third,
[00:05:00] Of the staff is a lot of people that get really depressed and demotivated as in, is this company even going to be here tomorrow?
[00:05:07] Do, are there any opportunities at all for me here?
[00:05:10] And what's going to happen is you're faced with a
[00:05:11] choice.
[00:05:12] Right? You're faced with a choice. Are you gonna, and it's fight or flight, to be honest. Are you gonna stick around
[00:05:18] and
[00:05:18] fight? Are you gonna wait and see? Are you gonna actively do something to leave? Right? And I just gotta say, if you're not committed to the fight,
[00:05:28] You're going to leave either voluntarily or involuntarily.
[00:05:31] That's usually what happens in this period. This is what I've seen at least. And
[00:05:36] I've decided in that scenario to stick
[00:05:38] around and fight and it's,
[00:05:39] paid off.
[00:05:41] Toni: Did it,
[00:05:42] Mikkel: it
[00:05:42] Toni: No, absolutely. By the way, for people
[00:05:46] to just know this. So whenever you're doing a
[00:05:48] big layoff round, management is basically looking at this. Okay, we're going to
[00:05:52] sack X percent of people. And they know there's going to be a two, 3 percent extra that are going to leave
[00:05:58] voluntarily afterwards.
[00:05:59] Like, you know,
[00:06:00] that's kind of part of the equation. So you can decide which one you, you're going to be. Are you going to be one of the ones that
[00:06:06] sticks around, actually tries for, you know, going somewhere or, or is basically kind of giving up. I think first, I also just wanted to go back just a little bit and be like,
[00:06:16] Well, what is
[00:06:16] chaos in
[00:06:17] an organization, right?
[00:06:18] So chaos can be induced through you know, big changes.
[00:06:22] It can be a layoff because usually from that layoff, there's a, some kind of a
[00:06:26] strategic shift. It's usually a bigger layoff in one part of the organization, not everywhere. So it's not a. general scale back, it's a reshifting
[00:06:35] of resources in an ideal scenario.
[00:06:37] Another chaos can simply be a growth phase, right? Kind of a scale up phase can also,
[00:06:44] you know, give you chaos
[00:06:46] in many cases, right? So if you suddenly are an organization of. 10, 20 people and you're growing to a hundred in like 12, 18 months, that's chaos right there, right? So that's an opportunity as well.
[00:06:57] And then there might be all kinds of other mini chaos things that are not happening on a
[00:07:01] company wide level, but might be happening on, you know, a departmental level or on a
[00:07:06] team level. And I think, you know, You can either take the mindset of like, Oh, this is chaotic. You know, my manager should be doing a better job and complain, complain, complain.
[00:07:15] Or you can be like, Oh, great. My managers are messing up. There's tons of
[00:07:19] chaos around. That's an opportunity for me. You know, how can, how
[00:07:23] can I benefit
[00:07:24] from this now? And thinking about this as a, as a, as a crack that can be,
[00:07:29] That can be used by you for your own gains. You I think that's the way to think about it.
[00:07:34] Right. And, and it's, it's not necessarily only like an egoistic thing. It's also just
[00:07:39] like
[00:07:40] the, the job of leadership in many cases is to shield the rest of the organization from all the
[00:07:45] crazy that
[00:07:46] happens.
[00:07:47] from all the chaos. Because I can tell you C level, VP and up, it's chaos all the time anyway.
[00:07:52] Right. But if you, as an employee actively able to
[00:07:56] deal with that and even to see that as something
[00:07:59] Mikkel: good.
[00:08:00] Toni: That makes you part of the ingroup
[00:08:02] now. yeah,
[00:08:03] It's like, oh wow, I can let
[00:08:04] this guy in. you
[00:08:05] know, I don't need to fake it to this guy all
[00:08:07] Mikkel: no, but
[00:08:07] quite frankly, even, so leaders are not immune to that stuff.
[00:08:10] If someone is just
[00:08:11] negative,
[00:08:12] Toni: Yeah.
[00:08:13] Mikkel: then they don't want to spend their capacity or energy on that person too much. Versus if someone is actually leaning in and saying,
[00:08:19] wow, crazy all the stuff that's happened totally get it or how can I help or, you know, being actually proactive and solution oriented, very different.
[00:08:28] Then they will seek those people out, especially if, I would say if it's, if it's a negative change, right? If it's a reduction in force or shutting parts of something down, then actually being proactive is like, they really, you really need that as a leader, that energy and momentum. So that becomes crucial.
[00:08:42] And it's so simple to stand out in that scenario versus if it's, I don't know, reorg, very different, right? But that's also a point where there will be a lot of contention. Want to double back to a thing you also mentioned, which is yes, it can benefit you, but I think your approach has to be, how can the organization benefit from what I can do, right?
[00:09:02] So when change happens, usually it means some responsibilities will be left because someone resigned or got fired. You have an opportunity to take that responsibility or decipher yourself. Is this really important for the company and team? Is there a different version of the responsibility that should be executed?
[00:09:18] And I think that's the approach you want to take in being proactive. It's not just like, Hey, I'm happy with the change. No, no. You want to go in and actually say, Hey, we have a challenge here, or that person is not at risk, or a million other things. And, and kind of be that right hand to the, to the leadership
[00:09:32] in this case.
[00:09:33] Toni: So let's, let's go maybe through one or two examples that you and I had where To give a little bit of a tangible idea how people can use the chaos.
[00:09:41] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Toni: And I'll start with one that I've been mentioning a couple of times on this show already.
[00:09:46] I'm just kind of bringing it up again. Chaos situation company's not going in the right direction. We are spending too much. We're not, you know, closing enough business. So why is that happening? What can we do to fix this? And in that conversation the CEO tapped me and asked me, what, what, what, what would you
[00:10:06] Mikkel: do about it?
[00:10:06] Yeah.
[00:10:07] Toni: And I looked at this from a very RevOps data driven perspective with a team, not coming from me, it's coming from the team really. And what we then built was a way to redesign the organization, which then led to a layoff round, but redesigned the organization in order to configure it back into a situation where we actually had a very efficient growth coming out of this, right?
[00:10:28] So this, this chaotic scenario as not an opportunity for me to, okay, this is. Like, you know, dog shit. It's not going anywhere. Let me leave. No. Hey, here's a, here's a potential solution I'm putting forward. And well, let's see, you know, it worked out right. Kind of, that was an accelerator for me in my career.
[00:10:47] Mikkel: I think maybe that's a good segue to, To the next one, right? So you and I were actually just talking about Doom.
[00:10:53] You've read the books. I've not read the books. I've watched the movies
[00:10:56] Toni: Do you, do you read books like in journals? And can you, can you actually
[00:10:59] Mikkel: You know what?
[00:11:00] Toni: you read actually?
[00:11:02] Mikkel: No, I'm illiterate. No, actually for the first time this weekend, just a sidebar here, I managed to read a full chapter during daytime with the kids awake. in the couch, just in here. We can turn the camera maybe at some point so the viewers can see.
[00:11:15] No, but anyway. So anyway, Dune this whole movie is about spice, which is like a powder, I want to say, that can extend life and enable space travel. Basically it's like gasoline in the 80s. If you control it, you're like, control the universe, basically, right?
[00:11:32] Toni: I think you boiled it down perfectly. I think that's what it is.
[00:11:36] And I
[00:11:37] Mikkel: And I think the, the next hack is.
[00:11:39] Actually having some control, right? And you, and you
[00:11:42] mentioned,
[00:11:43] Toni: say the, say
[00:11:43] the
[00:11:44] Mikkel: I said, he who controls the spice controls the universe. That's the quote. That's the quote from the movie.
[00:11:49] Toni: tangible takeaway, control the
[00:11:51] Mikkel: Yes. And we don't meet drugs. This, that's not what we mean
[00:11:55] Toni: No, we mean paprika, pepper, oregano.
[00:12:00] Mikkel: we mean quota. MQLs, stuff like that. You want to actually, if you can own a number, this is the fastest route you can get to climb the
[00:12:10] Toni: that. On a, on a critical number to the business, right? Then the more critical, so no MQL, no, but the more critical that that number is to the business, the more important, right?
[00:12:24] I think this is one of the fundamental reasons why CFOs have so much influence on the organization. Because they own the money number, right? That's, that's,
[00:12:33] Mikkel: have the purse and go like, so what did you want to buy?
[00:12:36] Toni: exactly. And you know, and then on the go to market side, you can say you're a sales leader and therefore you, you own the revenue piece.
[00:12:43] I think that's already clearly super important, right? I think for some folks out there, there's a very clear, Hey, this is what I own. But there is always a way for you to step up. Right. So if you are a sales leader owning your revenue number what you could do, what I think you should do, I think what modern VP of sales should absolutely be doing already is to also own the efficiency number, you know, choose which one, if it's CAC Payback, it's CAC to CLTV, whatever it might be, choose one but own that as well.
[00:13:14] Right. That will not only level up your game and how to think about the whole go to market, but also. Suddenly you will be able to talk on, you know, board level
[00:13:23] Mikkel: topics, right?
[00:13:24] Toni: If you are a marketing leader, you know, yes, own the MQL opportunity production, try and own the revenue number as well.
[00:13:31] That's very uncomfortable for folks.
[00:13:33] And,
[00:13:33] and if you say you own the revenue number, make it not just a, like a lip service, like, Oh, you know, yes, we're, we're, it's marketing. We're super focused on, on revenue. That's the only thing that's important to us. No, but be be actually unhappy when the revenue number isn't being hit.
[00:13:48] Like actually show an actual connection. And maybe tie some of your comp against that, right? Kind of really try and up level going from. Pipeline created to revenue
[00:13:57] Mikkel: I
[00:13:58] think it's also like, so plenty of folks will put it on their LinkedIn, put it on the slides internally that they, you know, focus on revenue in marketing.
[00:14:05] Here's what it actually looks like. If you're running, let's just say you own a paid channel and you want to focus on revenue. What you're going to look at is how many leads, how did they convert into opportunities? Who got the opportunities? How well are they performing? Closing them one two deals at what rate?
[00:14:22] At what time? And then you'd be able to say, Hey, Greg, the AE is not closing any of these opportunities. What is going on here? Like, then he shouldn't get myops. Like, that is actually, if you take it to that level, all the way down to a signature,
[00:14:37] Toni: Yeah,
[00:14:38] Mikkel: then you care about it. Also because if there's no signatures, guess what?
[00:14:41] You need to change something upstream. And that could be a million things like targeting, et cetera, right? I think the other small hack you kind of subtly put into the episode here was CAC Payback.
[00:14:52] Right now, efficiency matters a great deal. And I think if you can show that you not only care about the number, but also how you get to that number, that is also going to be a superpower right now.
[00:15:03] And it's back to kind of understanding what is it the company needs to achieve and how are you a part of that. If you can not only say that you care about it, but also deliver on it, which is absolutely essential. Yeah, the whole conversation just changes.
[00:15:18] Toni: And I think there's also another piece that I feel sometimes marketing leaders get wrong is actually being.
[00:15:25] Able to sell internally that what they're doing is pretty important. And then are able to sell how, what they're doing can grow, right? Because everyone is thinking, ah, you just, you know, run more ads, you get more money, that's usually not how it works. It's, it's way more complicated. Being able to break this down and simplify it and, and sell the CFO, sell the CEO and, and get them bought in and get them, Even like interested in, like keen on, on these next steps.
[00:15:52] I think that's, that's really difficult to achieve, but that's, that's also up leveling your game. And I think this comes from you really thinking about revenue kind of, how can we generate more revenue? It's not going to be more Facebook ads or whatever it might be for you. It's something else. So what is it and why do you believe that this is right?
[00:16:09] So
[00:16:09] Mikkel: So there's also the question, what if you can't own a number right now? Well, there's two other options. One is, can you own an area? That's not necessarily tied to a number, think PR. Sure, you can add a number to it, but it's not, that's not kind of what we're discussing here, you and I. The other is, can you own an initiative, right?
[00:16:24] So if you're in revenue operations, chances are you will have a lot of day to day, but you will also be able to run certain initiatives, and you've got to look at what lever is it pulling for the organization. Right? If this is like optimizing the, I don't know, the desk setup in the different offices, it's like, yeah, forget about it.
[00:16:43] That's not going to be crucial to the success of the business. But what about driving up the efficiency in sales? That could be a thing, right?
[00:16:50] Toni: thing, right?
[00:16:50] So I was also just thinking like, what is it, what is it that sales ops, rev ops and so forth, what should they be owning if you think about it?
[00:16:58] I, I would actually suggest to make it CAC Payback. Like it's, it's. It's always my go to and, and, you know, for better and for worse, but the thing is, I think it's incredibly difficult for rebels to say like, I own new business. It's like, you kind
[00:17:16] Mikkel: you closing deals?
[00:17:18] I don't.
[00:17:19] Toni: I own pipeline gen.
[00:17:21] Really? How many calls did you make today? How many emails did
[00:17:23] Mikkel: make? Yeah.
[00:17:24] Toni: None of that, right?
[00:17:25] So you are a support function but you can see across the different parts of the organization, which is really difficult for them to achieve. It's really, it's really hard to make people understand how blind you become when you focus on one department, right?
[00:17:41] Kind of not having those blinders on, is extremely useful. And you know, you, you're not having that. That's a, that's an advantage. And then the other piece, you know, pulling in the cost part, it's really difficult to do for folks. It's really difficult actually. So really trying to own that and trying to run initiatives against it and ideally seeing improvements.
[00:18:04] Thank you. I think that's, that's a cool thing to own. I think that is something that is worthwhile. And then, you know, again, just with the VP of sales example earlier, those are then items that might even get you dragged into a boardroom because maybe this is, you know, up for discussion and why is it so high and where do you see opportunities and Hey, we're not talking about your team because you're not the VP of sales.
[00:18:27] You are talking freely about, you know, the teams that you're seeing and suddenly you're kind of a third party opinion and maybe your opinion is going to be valued a little bit more.
[00:18:37] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:18:37] I just
[00:18:38] wanted to translate one thing you said, which is the whole RevOps can own CAC Payback.
[00:18:43] I think one thing to realize here is also while finance is going to sit in their corner and do the spreadsheet with how much money you're going to allocate
[00:18:49] where,
[00:18:51] I
[00:18:51] think
[00:18:51] Revenue Operations is in a unique position to monitor how that money is
[00:18:55] distributed.
[00:18:55] then gets used at the end of the
[00:18:57] day to
[00:18:57] your point, right? Because that's how you optimize CAC Payback at the end of the day. If you know it's going to be cheaper for you to shuffle from bucket A to bucket B, someone needs to point
[00:19:07] that out and
[00:19:07] drive that conversation, right? And if you go to a CAC
[00:19:11] Payback, RO, CFO, and you tell them, Hey,
[00:19:14] I have a super simple way.
[00:19:16] That's not going to cost you anything. That means we're going to
[00:19:19] change the CAC Payback from X to Y in a good way. Do we want to do that? They're going to be like,
[00:19:24] heck
[00:19:24] Toni: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Yeah. So, and you
[00:19:26] know, just to kind of double down on this. So I don't, I don't think
[00:19:29] it's particularly lots of magic to calculate CAC
[00:19:31] Payback. No, no, no. Right?
[00:19:32] So, I mean, everyone can do
[00:19:34] this.
[00:19:34] Finance is doing this. It's about
[00:19:37] Understanding how all of these
[00:19:39] different, you know, flows work out and money goes in and is there revenue coming out of this? And
[00:19:45] if yes, how
[00:19:46] much, and
[00:19:46] is it in proportion and is it good? Is it bad? Is it dragging up or down? And then based on that, making decisions on how to, how to,
[00:19:54] redistribute stuff, right.
[00:19:55] And, and
[00:19:56] then really having the.
[00:19:58] the
[00:19:58] understanding and the knowledge and the foresight to realize
[00:20:02] that
[00:20:02] not
[00:20:03] every input can be linked to an output that, so there will always be some
[00:20:07] ambiguity ambiguity in there. And that requires frankly, strategic
[00:20:13] thinking, right? And, and really deep insights into all the different parts of the bowtie of the, of the funnel And achieving that.
[00:20:20] You know, then leveraging that for the CAC Payback piece,
[00:20:23] I think that that can be really, this is, this would
[00:20:26] truly up level you know, you And
[00:20:29] then
[00:20:29] yes, this would be the, the the spice that you know,
[00:20:32] Mikkel: that, you
[00:20:32] know,
[00:20:33] Toni: the paprika that controls the, you
[00:20:35] Mikkel: yeah. So, then
[00:20:37] you have the the third and final
[00:20:40] Toni: So I, I
[00:20:41] didn't pick up
[00:20:42] on that. Both of,
[00:20:44] you know, the, the previous things were
[00:20:46] quotes.
[00:20:47] Mikkel: No.
[00:20:48] so
[00:20:48] disappointing.
[00:20:49] Toni: I know.
[00:20:50] My last one is last man standing
[00:20:52] Mikkel: wins.
[00:20:52] Hmm.
[00:20:53] you
[00:20:55] Toni: I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's in some movie.
[00:20:59] I'm
[00:20:59] sure it's in some
[00:21:00] movie. Source gonna be
[00:21:01] Mikkel: be blank. So what I
[00:21:04] wanted
[00:21:05] Toni: what I wanted to say on this topic actually is,
[00:21:11] and I've seen this now a couple
[00:21:12] of times, right? Kind of, I've been around like
[00:21:14] professionally now, but for 10, 15 years or something like
[00:21:16] this,
[00:21:16] Wow,
[00:21:17] I'm also fucking old
[00:21:18] Mikkel: funny? No, it's just
[00:21:19] like, you've
[00:21:20] been
[00:21:20] Toni: Why
[00:21:21] is that
[00:21:21] funny? No, it's just like,
[00:21:22] Mikkel: around for 10, 15 years, you were basically
[00:21:24] dead.
[00:21:25] before.
[00:21:25] Toni: I
[00:21:25] said, profession.
[00:21:26] Mikkel: I know, it's just a weird way to phrase it. But, go
[00:21:28] on!
[00:21:29] Toni: No,
[00:21:29] this is like, you know,
[00:21:31] sometimes,
[00:21:33] My German
[00:21:34] ness needs to shine
[00:21:35] through.
[00:21:35] Yeah, exactly.
[00:21:36] You know, otherwise
[00:21:37] people with, Oh, wow. He's such a no accent. He's so slick. He must be from America.
[00:21:42] And well,
[00:21:42] that's certainly not the
[00:21:43] case.
[00:21:44] So,
[00:21:44] last man standing wins.
[00:21:46] What do I mean, with that?
[00:21:47] Well, for the
[00:21:48] last 10, 15 years, I've seen a couple of different careers
[00:21:50] pan out.
[00:21:52] And
[00:21:52] some of them have been
[00:21:54] going.
[00:21:55] Extremely well, not, I mean, they were all
[00:21:58] smart people, hardworking, all of
[00:22:00] that stuff. Don't want to take anything
[00:22:01] away from that, but one of the things that they did
[00:22:03] extremely well is to
[00:22:06] just stick
[00:22:07] Mikkel: around
[00:22:07] Yeah.
[00:22:08] Toni: just stay, stay where you are, right? And and the reason why this is so powerful is let's just say you're not in a big corporate,
[00:22:17] We're sticking around is the requirement to get
[00:22:22] promoted
[00:22:22] eventually. Right. It's different
[00:22:24] there, but let's just say you're sticking around in a smaller
[00:22:26] organization, like a hundred
[00:22:27] to 500
[00:22:28] employees or something like this,
[00:22:30] sticking
[00:22:31] around for 5, years.
[00:22:34] That might
[00:22:35] be the, the, the big decider for how you can actually grow in that organization
[00:22:40] extremely fast. And let me tell you why.
[00:22:43] In those small organizations in 99 percent of the cases,
[00:22:47] you will have a couple of negative
[00:22:50] events. we talked about layoffs, we talked about acquisitions, all M& A is
[00:22:56] kind of terrible. There are a couple of reasons why people are
[00:22:59] leaving. It's I really liked it when it was 50 people, now
[00:23:04] it's, it's so anonymous. And there are always reasons why
[00:23:08] people are pooping on an organization, therefore
[00:23:09] leaving.
[00:23:11] If you are one of the few that is also seeing these things,
[00:23:15] it's
[00:23:15] like, Oh,
[00:23:16] it's really sad that we don't have the ping pong table
[00:23:18] anymore. It's like, Oh, it's, you know, really liked our old brand
[00:23:21] better than this new one from the mothership.
[00:23:23] You just stick around
[00:23:24] and, you know, roll with the punches. What will happen is a lot of people around you and on top
[00:23:29] of you.
[00:23:30] We'll slowly leave the
[00:23:32] organization.
[00:23:33] And
[00:23:33] as
[00:23:33] more people leave, the more people will be like, Oh wow, this, this guy or girl,
[00:23:38] Mikkel: I mean,
[00:23:40] Toni: they
[00:23:40] know so much. We cannot lose this person.
[00:23:43] You don't have to be a rock star.
[00:23:46] And again, many people are anyway but he's starting to get so much intrinsic value for that organization. That losing you is pretty terrible.
[00:23:57] And
[00:23:57] then
[00:23:57] they're gonna, you know, overcompensate by trying to, you know, build a place for you to actually
[00:24:03] wanting to stay, right?
[00:24:04] And this can be through compensation, through titles, through whatever. And simply sticking this out.
[00:24:10] Which is also not
[00:24:11] easy.
[00:24:12] It's also
[00:24:13] not easy sticking through a shit period for a year or two. I'm sorry. It's not easy, but doing that
[00:24:19] successfully can put you on a, you know, can put you in a very special place with that organization,
[00:24:25] which they will
[00:24:26] eventually reward.
[00:24:27] Mikkel: I
[00:24:27] think
[00:24:27] it's also like
[00:24:28] you,
[00:24:28] Toni: to have something, you
[00:24:29] Mikkel: you
[00:24:29] gotta
[00:24:30] have some fortitude. I'm not saying you need to stick around and
[00:24:33] be stressed out and have a boss
[00:24:34] that's like terrorizing you, that's
[00:24:36] not, you know, a, a reason for you to stick around.
[00:24:40] But just because things aren't as grand as they used to be or things aren't running as smoothly, or you have an annoying project or whatever, like those are.
[00:24:49] Probably not the right decisions to then leave. I think what it does for you, this whole
[00:24:53] sticking around game is also,
[00:24:55] it helps build your reputation, which matters a great deal. You will basically know more and more people over time,
[00:25:02] and that will make it an easier decision to kind of elevate you in the
[00:25:05] organization.
[00:25:06] Toni: absolutely. And, and I think this changed also a little bit now, you know, in 2024 versus 2021 or 2020, even you know, there were lots
[00:25:13] Mikkel: often. Yeah. It's
[00:25:15] Toni: research
[00:25:15] out there that,
[00:25:16] switching jobs
[00:25:17] more
[00:25:17] often is going to get you paid
[00:25:20] more.
[00:25:20] So sticking around loyalty is not being rewarded basically.
[00:25:23] And what we're trying to say is actually not that, Oh, because you're loyal to the organization, you will get
[00:25:29] paid more. It's not about that. I don't
[00:25:31] think companies
[00:25:33] pay more for loyalty. I think what happens though, is if you're the only one around with very specific knowledge about, you know, a very specific part of the organization,
[00:25:43] It's not about
[00:25:44] them
[00:25:45] being happy that you're loyal.
[00:25:46] It's about them making sure that you don't leave. So it's kind of, that's a different thing. Right. And I think specifically now in 2024, you know, people also have realized that the market isn't so
[00:25:57] flush anymore. You know, they're just not jumping ship on a, on a whim. A lot of the crazy, wonderful startup opportunities out there you know, maybe they're actually not going to go as well as people have
[00:26:08] thought. You know, that
[00:26:10] happens. And I
[00:26:11] think, you know, sticking it
[00:26:14] Mikkel: out,
[00:26:15] Toni: you
[00:26:15] know, through, through circumstances that are not terrible, let's
[00:26:20] just,
[00:26:20] let's just, no, no, no. I think you,
[00:26:22] you're raising, you're
[00:26:23] raising, raising a
[00:26:24] good point, right? If you're, if your boss is a dick.
[00:26:27] Then move on. Yes. Like that's absolutely clear.
[00:26:29] But
[00:26:29] Mikkel: if it's,
[00:26:30] Toni: you know, comparatively
[00:26:32] minor things, don't, don't, don't get too upset
[00:26:35] Mikkel: No, it's like,
[00:26:36] do you sleep well at night still?
[00:26:37] Do you get paid well enough? It's like, okay, suck it
[00:26:40] up.
[00:26:41] I'm sorry.
[00:26:42] Toni: And, and you
[00:26:43] know, trying,
[00:26:44] I know this
[00:26:45] sounds
[00:26:45] like crazy advice.
[00:26:47] Try and
[00:26:47] talk to your parents about it.
[00:26:49] I
[00:26:49] think that generation has just a completely different view on jobs and you know, what, what, what you do.
[00:26:55] I mean, then they're not only have been like, Oh, I will start
[00:26:58] in this one company and we'll try on this one company.
[00:27:01] But also
[00:27:01] they're like,
[00:27:03] when you, when you tell them the problems sometimes, and I'm, you
[00:27:05] know, I'm not saying that I've done that, but
[00:27:08] when
[00:27:08] you tell them
[00:27:08] those problems and
[00:27:09] then they listen to you And, it's like, Wow, what a whiny
[00:27:12] bitch
[00:27:12] you are.
[00:27:15] Mikkel: Did I race this?
[00:27:16] Suck it
[00:27:18] Toni: up,
[00:27:19] boy.
[00:27:20] And
[00:27:20] and, I
[00:27:21] think that can, that can also level
[00:27:23] sets you
[00:27:23] a little bit.
[00:27:24] Mikkel: Yeah, yeah,
[00:27:25] so that's, there
[00:27:26] you have it
[00:27:27] three, two quotes
[00:27:29] that are career hacks.
[00:27:30] And then I don't know what this last piece was, but we'll do better. We'll do
[00:27:34] better.
[00:27:34] So thanks so much for listening.
[00:27:37] Toni: Thanks, thanks for listening
[00:27:38] Mikkel: If you enjoyed listening to the episode, not watching it because
[00:27:42] all of the technical, wonderful issues we had,
[00:27:44] like, subscribe, share,
[00:27:49] That will help us out a
[00:27:50] Toni: Tell a
[00:27:50] friend actually
[00:27:51] tell a friend.
[00:27:53] Thanks everyone and have a
[00:27:54] good one. Bye. Bye.
[00:27:55] Mikkel: Bye