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In this episode of “Lab Medicine Rounds” this holiday season, Justin Kreuter, M.D., and D. Jane Hata, Ph.D., D(ABMM), Assistant Professor of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science, and Associate Director of the Clinical Microbiology Laboratory, including Molecular Virology, Mycology, and Parasitology at Mayo Clinic’s Florida campus, discuss responding with grace while under pressure.
A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
(relaxed music)
- This is Lab Medicine Rounds,
a curated podcast for physicians,
laboratory professionals, and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
the Bow Tie Bandit of Blood,
a transfusion medicine
pathologist at Mayo Clinic.
As we brave the colder
weather here in Minnesota,
we thought it'd be fun to
continue to travel south
and connect with some of our colleagues
at our other Mayo Clinic campuses
over these winter months.
And today we're rounding with Dr. Hata,
assistant professor of
laboratory medicine pathology
at Mayo Clinic, and associate director
of the clinical microbiology laboratory,
including molecular virology, mycology,
and parasitology at Mayo Clinic, Florida.
And we're gonna be talking
about an important professionalism topic,
as we thought this was really fitting
for the holiday season.
So we're gonna be talking
about having grace
when under pressure.
So thanks for joining us today, Dr. Hata.
- Hey, thanks so much for inviting me.
It's an interesting topic.
- I know.
So as you know, my heart
beats for medical education
and this concept of professionalism
and having this grace under pressure
is a important topic to
develop in our learners,
as well as an important topic
for us to continue to cultivate
throughout our career.
And so I really appreciate
this opportunity
to unpack this a little bit with you.
And this all came about
for our listeners to hear,
because there was an
article about Dr. Hata
that was published,
that we'll put a link
to in the show notes,
specifically about you responding
with grace under pressure
during some of our COVID challenges.
So maybe let's kick off,
and maybe can you talk a
little bit to our audience
about why is it important
to respond with grace
while we're under pressure.
- So I think this is a
hugely important topic
for medical professionals to learn.
And let me step back a little bit.
Because for the last 24 months,
'cause it just occurred to me today,
we're talking 24 months
since the beginning of the COVID pandemic.
And this was and is just a situation
I never would have imagined
at any point in my career,
how this has completely
transfixed the attention
of the world.
It's changed society.
It's changed how we
interact with one another.
And I still have trouble
getting my mind around it.
And so really, a lot of this has affected
how I respond under pressure.
It really made me take
a hard look at myself
in some respects.
And I think that we can
all draw lessons from it.
I didn't learn how to
do this from a textbook.
It's all by being on the front lines,
on the ground as many of us are,
and working through this.
- I wish, in some ways,
you almost wish there was
some kind of a textbook,
something to help,
because I think that's how a lot of us
are learning so much of our knowledge
that we need to be a health professional.
So maybe we could dive
into that a little bit.
How do you think you develop this ability
to project poise when
in stressful situations?
- I don't know if it's anything
I necessarily developed,
but it was in reaction
to this crazy situation
that we were in.
We had information that was changing
literally every 15 minutes
when we were first asked
to respond to this.
We had information coming
from all sorts of different directions.
We had journalists, we had scientists,
we had other people throwing
their opinions into the ring.
And it's up to us as medical professionals
to wade through this and
generate coherent, clear,
scientifically based messages
that we can give to our patients,
other interested parties.
And for me, really,
I had to communicate very clearly
and very succinctly with my staff.
I was getting bombarded with questions.
And I think one of the
things that I relied on
is that this is a very
emotional situation.
We had no idea what was going to happen.
I think it's the role of leaders,
is to behave in a calm
and rational fashion.
Now, I may be emotionally
torn up on the inside,
and there were some days
where it certainly was.
But I think it's important
to support our co-workers,
our staff, and make sure
that we're delivering
a calm, focused, cohesive message.
And that will make them
feel better as well.
Because they are looking
to us for leadership.
- Now, in your development and growing up,
I mean, was there a mentor or a situation,
you had an experience either
in the healthcare field
or outside the healthcare field
where it kind of they gave you a pause
and made you think, wow,
that's somebody that really showed
that kind of grace under pressure,
that leadership ability.
Is there anybody like that in your life
that kind of comes to mind?
- Well, I would say that I
look to my entire family.
My whole family are scientists.
Had a number of clinicians and nurses
and other academics in my family.
And I think we all rely on
science and looking at facts,
wading through the data,
and coming to conclusions
based on what we learned and what we know.
And so I think a lot of
that was really unconscious.
But having said that,
I think anybody can have
mental conversations
with themselves to try to train themselves
to taking information, be thoughtful,
and communicate it back out
in a calm and rational manner.
- I really liked that
peg that you just did
of having these mental
conversations with ourselves.
I think a lot of times you hear that
with professional athletes,
kind of that pre-visualization
of what's their race going to look like.
And as you said that,
I kind of see your role as a leader
when you were gonna maybe
sit down with the journalist,
or sit down with your lab team
that's working overtime
and things like that.
Did you find yourself
having some of these mental conversations?
How did that go for you?
- Oh, constantly.
And sometimes it would be a little scary
because I started to wonder
if there were multiple people up there.
I assure you that there's not.
But I think it's really
important to be self-reflective.
And there are two questions
that constantly went through my mind,
no matter what I did,
whether I was working on a laboratory test
or communicating with others.
The first one is, does this make sense?
Did what I just say, does that make sense?
Does it make sense to other people?
You have to constantly ask yourself that.
The other question is what
could possibly go wrong here?
And really, that's a common way of saying,
analyze the different
scenarios that could happen.
But I'm constantly asking
myself those two questions,
because it does no good if
it only makes sense to me.
It has to make sense to
other people as well.
- Yeah, I think that's brilliant.
As a leader, you can
have the greatest idea
inside your mind,
but if that's not
accurately communicated out.
I'm curious, are those two questions,
I think that's really insightful.
So one, does this make sense?
Two, what could possibly go wrong?
Are those questions that if you go back,
that you've been using
for a number of years?
Or is this something that
has more recent for you,
those two questions?
- I think I've probably always done it.
Because especially in the laboratory,
we're always asking ourselves,
is this the right thing to do?
And could there be bad outcomes from this?
And we do this on all the
medical professions, obviously.
But I think it really came to a head
as I was trying to analyze a
lot of different information
from a lot of different sources
when we were starting to
develop our pandemic response,
and speaking to a lot
of different audiences.
I mean, we're speaking to scientists,
we're speaking to laboratorians,
we're speaking to the lay public,
we're speaking to the press,
and we have to be very,
very mindful of our message.
So it takes a little bit
of extra self-reflection
in order to craft that.
- It's interesting.
I was just recently, actually yesterday,
giving feedback to one of my fellows
about being cognizant
about who the audience is.
And I think that your example here
is the next level of that.
I was thinking about
if you're talking about
one medical professional
versus another medical professional.
You're talking about really people
that have a very high diversity
in what their background is to
understand that information.
One thing I'm really curious about is,
I think with professionalism,
there are times
where we kind of get pushed
outside our comfort zone,
and probably most of us since we're human,
sort of start to skate
a little bit and not,
as we get more uncomfortable,
we might behave a little
less professionally.
Or we may, because we're nervous,
circumvent that process
of asking those questions.
And so I'm curious about
how do you recognize in your own self,
since you are a leader in the
laboratory, in our community,
how do you kind of notice
when you're like, eh,
I'm getting a little challenged here.
I need to kind of keep it on the rails.
I don't know if I'm asking that right.
- I think I get where
you're going with this.
And again, finding out things about myself
that I didn't really realize before.
But with this extraordinary situation,
when things really got tense,
I would notice some
actual physical symptoms,
like get really tight.
I ended up punching at my computer,
and my brain would literally slow down.
So analysis paralysis.
And I know that this happens to me.
So since I know that, I can combat it.
And for me,
exercise is really important.
Sleep was really important.
I still have challenges
with getting enough of
both of those things,
but I know it's a problem
so I can deal with it.
Sometimes you just
literally have to step back
out of that conversation
and take a five-minute walk
or stare out the window for
five minutes and just detach,
take a deep breath.
And oftentimes that will allow
your mind to clear enough
so that you can step
back in where you were,
and maybe take a little
bit of a different tact,
especially if you're having
a difficult conversation.
I think one thing that,
unfortunately, you see a loss of
is in very, very stressful situations,
mutual respect.
These are emotionally charged times.
And so if you subconsciously tell yourself
please and thank you are
very, very important things
and focus on that,
and that really goes a long way
to diffusing some of the
emotional baggage that can occur.
And really helps yourself
take that moment, step back,
take a breath, and be kind to others.
It's important.
- What you said there about mutual respect
being particularly vulnerable
really resonates with me.
And I'm also thinking about our listeners.
And we've got students that are learning
in the health professions,
and those that are practicing.
And I think for those of
us younger in our career,
if I found myself in a
high-pressure meeting
with people that are higher
on the totem pole with me,
it might be challenging to ask for a break
or to step out for a few minutes,
with the fear of what are
they gonna think of me?
Or if I ask for that,
people are gonna think I'm
not competent, I guess,
is probably the underlying fear.
What's your feedback
to the young professionals
in our community
that might be a little bit
nervous about taking a beat
to collect themselves in their thoughts?
- Yeah, I get that.
And I can understand
how that would be a little bit unnerving.
I will say that your best leaders
will respect that type of decision.
Gee, I need a moment.
I'd like to step out and collect myself.
Unfortunately, we can't always guarantee
people will react that way.
But at the end of the day,
you have to answer to yourself.
You have to know that you
are doing the right thing
in the right way.
And other good folks
will go along with that.
- Well said.
Let me ask you now then about,
thinking about the other
aspect of our professionals
that have been practicing
for a number of years,
'cause we're lifelong learners.
That's not just for medical knowledge,
but that's also aspects
of professionalism.
And since there's not really a book on it,
how do you continue to grow
in your professionalism,
in your ability to be a more
effective leader more broadly?
- Listen well.
Not just listen,
but listen well to everybody
that crosses your path,
whether you're talking to the CEO
or whether you're talking to
your brand new technologist
that just started that morning.
Everybody has something important to say.
But the question is are you
smart enough to listen to that?
- I love that advice.
Can you help unpack that for me,
about what does that well mean to you?
Is that reflective questioning
based on what you're hearing?
What does that look like?
- So everybody has a different perspective
on a given situation,
and they may have a perspective
that never even occurred to you.
And so I think it behooves us
to try to understand what
the other person is thinking
and learn from that.
I mean, people can talk about, gee,
the weather in Minnesota
is really horrible
this time of the year.
And I would say, "Really? How?
I don't quite understand."
- Oh, Dr. Hata.
We're interviewing candidates
for residency right now.
We're gonna have to cut that section.
It's gorgeous in Minnesota right now.
- It is actually gorgeous
in Minnesota right now.
- I'm sorry to interrupt.
- But again, I think it's important.
And it is something that you
have to remind yourself to do.
But again, as academics,
we're supposed to be open to learning
from all facets around us.
And yes, it can be a little bit of work.
You have to remind yourself to do it.
But it's keenly important.
- It almost comes full circle,
in that earlier you had mentioned,
it's self-evident that exercise and sleep
are essential components.
But earlier, you were talking about
how it's important to remember that.
And it almost sounds like
you're putting that also
in the same camp of we need to remember
to continue to cultivate
this ability to listen well,
right up there with sleep and exercise.
- Yeah, like I said,
I have lots of conversations
going on up here all the time.
But yeah, it was pretty remarkable
for me when I think now,
when I think back about a year ago,
how just tight I was and how
much different I feel now.
I mean, I don't feel completely normal.
I don't think any of
us really do quite yet.
But just on a physical standpoint,
it's much, much different.
And I think it's good to
know what you can tolerate.
- I think that's a theme I'm hearing
through this conversation,
is kind of that self-knowledge
that you're developing
throughout your career.
And then putting that
to use in your practice.
Thank you so much, Dr. Hata,
for unpacking this
really challenging topic
of how do we have this professionalism
of grace under pressure.
- No, I think it's a great topic,
and I'm glad you're touching upon it.
We unfortunately have
seen casualties of that
during this period of time.
But it's something that
we can all address,
just given a little bit of self-reflection
and just being kind to one another.
It's really important.
- Well, I'm gonna remember
my please and thank-yous.
Thank you.
We've been rounding with Dr. Hata,
talking about grace under
pressure and professionalism.
And to all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email.
Please direct any suggestions
to mcleducation@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed Lab
Medicine Rounds podcast,
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Until our next rounds together,
we encourage you to continue
to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice
through insightful conversations.
(relaxed music)