The Meat Mafia Podcast

Charlie Lawrence is an elite competitive long distance runner. In 2023, Charlie set the world record for the 50-Mile distance race, running an average mile speed of 5:46. Charlie has ran a marathon personal best of 2:16 and has qualified for the US Olympic Trials Marathon for the second time. Charlie joins us today to shed light into how he prepares and achieves ambitious goals.

Key topics discussed include:

- Benefits of altitude and high-pressure environment training
- Personalized coaching and precision nutrition
- Ketone shots as an energy source
- Strength training's role in ultra-distance running
- Future goals including winning the 100K World Championships

Timestamps:

(00:00) Endurance Sports and Mental Toughness
(02:54) Coaching and Nutrition for Performance
(05:51) Routine Nutrition for Endurance Athletes
(13:04) Ketone Shots and Strength Training Benefits
(16:25) Training for Ultra Distance Running
(23:29) Trail Racing and Marathon Prep


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Host
Brett Ender 🥩⚡️
The food system is corrupt and trying to poison us... I will teach you how to fight back. Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod 🥩
Host
Harry Gray 🥩⚡️
Leading the Red Meat Renaissance 🥩 ⚡️| Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod

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The Meat Mafia Podcast is hosted by @MeatMafiaBrett and @MeatMafiaHarry with the mission of addressing fundamental problems in our food and healthcare system. Our concerns with our healthcare system can be drawn back to issues in our food system as far back as soil health. Our principles are simple: eat real foods, buy locally, and cook your own meals.

When you listen to our podcast, you will hear stories and conversations from people working on the fringes of the food and healthcare system to address the major crises overshadowing modern society: how do we become healthy again?

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Part 2 Audio
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[00:00:00] Should we hit it? Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm curious how you actually approach nutrition leading up to the races and then breaking that down on race day. Cause there's so many people out there that Especially the guys who have come on our show, mostly low carb guys. But I'm, curious how you found the secret sauce for yourself,

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do you feel like you come into some of these races that might be at sea level with, uh, an advantage in your, in your head, probably potentially more so than anything else about you training at altitude, you being in Boulder and just being able to outwork these guys who have been training, you know, at sea level or not at altitude?

Oh, yeah, dude. I mean, it's, it's a different edge. I mean, like, you just even see where So you can see like certain splits, you know, like from people down at sea level and they're pretty flashy. Like nothing I do up here is all that flashy, but you know, too, it's like, if I was on seal, that'd be five seconds a mile faster than like, you're damn happy with that [00:01:00] workout, you know?

Um, but then you get down there, dude, you just feel so good. You know? Like, that's the thing. Like you just. Like the red, like, uh, your blood volumes higher. Like you just feel so good. Like you catch your breath so much faster. Um, just definitely a different edge and you just bring that down to where it's like, you know, if you're on five 30 for 24 miles up here, it's like, that's easily, you know, five 20 lows at sea level, you know, cause it's also on in Boulder and Boulder's not flat by any means.

So, so, so you're rolling. Um, just definitely a little, a little, you know, mental switch. What's, um, what have you seen change in your own performance as you've gotten more into the coaching side of things? Have you noticed your own game evolve as you've gotten to kind of bring some other people up and coach people up?

Yeah, so my big thing is, and I tell everyone like everyone this that I coach, we're like, I'm not going to give you something that I haven't done myself. You know, so, so that's kind of my mentality and like, and I, I trained pretty dang hard when I'm like [00:02:00] fully healthy and able to, um, hope I'll be able to get back to that like next week, truthfully, but like, but it's, that's the thing where it's like, you pull from, like, I pull from all my experiences, everything that I've learned from, you know, like.

Flas, Kevin, um, Richie, you know, Corey, like my coaches that have had, I pull that and like just a mixed bag and when I know what works and try to translate that to them, um, that's probably like kind of the biggest piece, but you know, they also like, it's all about taking what I know and also what what's worked for them in the past and then mixing it together.

So really like they're, they teach me certain things too, about like what's work is not everything's a. You know, one size fits all, you know, it's, it's not a cookie cutter. So it's like, what's worked for me, what's worked for them. And how do we work together to make you a better athlete? Um, so I guess, I guess that's probably the one thing that I've, that I've learned from them is just like seeing other philosophies that have, that they've tried to implement or that they've learned from other coaches.

Um, not even saying like, just pulling an idea from them. It's like, Oh, Hey, like, that's actually a pretty good workout. If you liked in the past, like, let's. Let's double back down on that. Like let's [00:03:00] maybe put our own twist on it. So if anything, like that's definitely kind of what I pull, pull from it for sure.

Nice. Uh, how do you, I'm curious how you actually approach nutrition leading up to the races and then breaking that down on race day. Cause there's so many people out there that Especially the guys who have come on our show, mostly low carb guys. But I'm, I'm curious how you found the secret sauce for yourself, what you've found to work and, and, uh, bring out the best performance for you when it comes to nutrition.

Yeah. So I'll probably start like just with the basics. So like my diet is pretty boring. Like I eat the exact same thing. Like every day for the first three meals, like full, full transparency, but then I, but then that helps it translate to like to race day. It helps me like. So like, for example, like just my daily, like when I'm in full training and even now, like, here's what it is.

So it's like pre run it'll be bread, no butter, honey with my pour over coffee. Um, I'll do my activation, go out and run. And right before I start, [00:04:00] I'll rip a, rip a ketone IQ. So, um, do that come back and I just make a big smoothie afterwards. So it's going to be, um, almond milk, banana. Blueberries and sometimes strawberries, big handful of spinach, um, raw way, way isolate protein, collagen, um, and creatine.

So that's going to be my post meal. If I'm super, super hungry, I'll have another, like another piece of bread with nut butter and honey, but typically that's all I'll have. And also I have another shot of ketone IQ, um, my lunch, very boring. So it's going to be like a tuna, camembert apple, tuna salad wrap, um, just from whole foods thrown tortilla with an apple, um, some electrolytes.

That's my lunch. Second run that dinner varies as long as I'm getting like, um, a protein source, carb and veggie, like I roll with that. So it's typically like tonight, like we're trying to like, before I got in here, I was talking to Alice. I'm like, what do you want for dinner? Cause I haven't figured out yet.

Probably should be like salmon, white rice and like cauliflower. Super simple, you know, [00:05:00] just keep it, keep it simple. Then I'll usually have like yogurt before bed, um, or just another protein shake. So very, very, very standard, but that's what I do every single day, especially those first three meals, like the pre run post run lunch, because I know exactly how I feel, how I'm going to cover, um, how I'm going to feel for that first run.

How I'm going to feel for that second run, how my stomach's going to feel. Um, I have a workout, like a bigger session. Um, I'll typically add, like, I'll be sipping like liquid carbs. Usually have a full bottle of that before, like with breakfast, before I even go out for my run. Then if it's like a marathon specific session, I'll be having something, every liquid carbs, every roughly three, four miles, then every like roughly 10 miles, we having a ketone shot with those carbs is all mixed in during a workout.

So, um, that's kind of how I broke it in, in through like my marathon through. The 50 miler. Um, so let's say just every standard day of the week, that's what I do. The workout days, more carbs, more liquid carbs. Um, yeah, I'm definitely not a, not a low carb keto guy. Um, I just feel, I just feel like I [00:06:00] perform better off of that.

I'm not, I haven't really, I don't want to go through any sort of, and it's like, I respect the guys that do do it. I just don't want to go through, I'm just like training volume is too high to try to switch them and die completely. You know? I'm going to risk risk anything. So, um, so that being said now, so like take that kind of copy and paste.

It's like a race week. Like let's say the race on a Saturday, like a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, that'll be super standard. Um, then I'll focus on adding way more carbs that Thursday. So it'll just be like an extra serving of, it'll be like liquid carbs in the morning pre run. Um, exercise of bread, nut butter, honey, um, actually like banana in my smoothie.

After that, it'll be an extra serving of carbs with lunch. Um, I forgot to mention too. I also have like a chopped up apple. I'm not sure if I mentioned that with, with lunch every single day. Um, and then for dinner, I'll like almost eat myself to the point, like Um, or enough carbs I just feel disgusting. So it's like, let's say I'll have like pasta or, you know, I'll eat like three or four breadsticks with pasta just to [00:07:00] like, almost like feel puffy and gross.

I don't count calories, but I know I'm trying to get at least probably five, 600 grams of carbs in that day. So again, I'm just kind of guesstimating, but I know kind of how I feel off of like the extra servings with. Pre run, post run, lunch, and then usually if I start feeling disgusting at dinner with whether it's, you know, pasta, something light, whether it's like a chicken, a lighter meat, um, then the breadsticks, and I'll still have like an extra, like, usually like a Morton bar or something before bed, just extra carbs, um, that Thursday, then that Friday I'll go back to like my standard diet, um, cause carbs typically peak in your system, you know, 24 to 36 hours, so I might have a little bigger breakfast, Then I'll just go eat normally so I don't feel gross race morning, kind of that Friday.

Um, usually my standard pre race meal is just ice cold sushi. I'll do a couple spicy salmon rolls. Um, so that's one that's gonna be, you know, rice, the seaweed wrap. Um, and salmon super, super, super standard, you know, with maybe like a small side salad. Um, and it just, it sits really, really well, super light.

Um, [00:08:00] then we're on to race day and obviously race days, more carbs, liquid carbs at the start, have an extra serving, like have like another Morton, um, solid bar, um, with that. And then kind of go into the race and every like three, four miles, we need liquid carbs. Um, typically I'll rotate, so like liquid carbs.

Um, then my next bottle like will be a gel with, with electrolytes to wash the gel down. Then my third bottle would be like liquid carbs, the ketone. And you try to rotate that. So like one, two, three, one, two, three. So that's what I did in the marathon with the fifth mile is a little, little more unique where the stations were roughly every five miles.

Like the first station was like 5. 5 and it was like 10. 9. So it's like it averaged out to be, you know, five miles or is a little shorter, a little more on some fronts. Um, so there was like, it had to be pretty unique trying to optimize how many carbs I was getting in. So I just ended up going, it was, it was like ripped an extra, a Morton gel, one six, so 40 grams of carbs, ketones shot right at the start.

I always do that before a race or a big workout, having [00:09:00] to have an extra gel right at the start of the workout. Um, Like I said, have the, have the carbs throughout, but with the 50 mile, it was essentially rotating like electrolytes with the Morton gel one 60. Then the next bottle is going to be, cause it was roughly then 10 miles.

I do liquid carbs with ketone shot, gel with electrolytes another, you know, three, four or five miles later. Um, then another, you know, roughly 20 miles. Liquid carbs, the ketone shot rotated those. So that's how I did it. Um, just to make sure I was getting one enough key, like enough ketones help with the glycogen sparing, help with focus, also like double dosing with the carbs.

So kind of a dual feeling right there. Um, then the other bottles, making sure I'm getting, getting the gel down and make sure I'm also getting enough electrolytes in with, with electrolytes in that bottoms to kind of wash it down. Then this, I have to finish that bottle. Like I made sure I finished the liquid carbs.

Um, through and through, so, and the gels at least, so nice. I like, uh, I like how you described it as like a really boring approach for your not non race day nutrition. Um, cause [00:10:00] there's so many factors at play and just being able to actually solve for some of the inconsistencies that can happen, I'm sure with running.

It's just like, you just want to show up on race day, feeling the exact same you would any other day. So being able to solve and actually just keep some of these variables consistent is probably huge for you. Just like, not having to worry about feeling up, feeling down, feeling bloated, um, feeling more tired.

It's just like, just keep it simple. Have the foods that you like and, and uh, keep hammering those. And I think that that is like, just seems like the right approach for someone who's trying to like push themselves in the endurance space. Yeah. I mean, at this time, like truthfully, it's, it's mindless. Like I could go, like, I mean, my kitchen is just the right right here.

I have a, I have a small condo here in Boulder, but like, I could go like into my kitchen, like blindfolded and make my smoothie, you know, like, like it's just, it's so, it's just routine now. And my body's just used to it. I don't know how I feel off it, know how to recover. Um, I said, I know how, how my stomach's going to feel my second run, where if I go and like, sometimes I'll go out and like somebody say, Hey, you want to grab lunch?

Like I'll [00:11:00] go make sure I have like a super basic, like Turkey sandwich, you know, Turkey lettuce, or like BLT sit fine too. You know, just like something super, super basic is all I'll do for lunch with, with some sort of fruit or like a small side salad. Um, I just know exactly how that that's going to sit in my stomach.

So I don't, I don't mess with any of that. Hmm. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I'll say even like, even for like pre workout days, I'm going to have a dinner that I know sits well, like the night before, like I know sushi sits well. I know like one of my favorite go tos is just like, uh, Dijon rosemary chicken white rice with like broccoli.

Like, I always know it's going to sit super well if I have a workout the next morning, you know? Um, so just keeping that super standard across the board. I love it. You mentioned Michael Brandt chewing glass and then, uh, talked about the ketone shots a bit. Have you noticed? Any sort of shift in how you feel, whether it's just mentally, physically incorporating those ketone shots into your routine?

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, it's funny, like some, like so many people [00:12:00] haven't tried it will kind of like, I don't say they'll throw shade, but they'll, they'll throw shade and like, they'll talk shit and they'll just like, I'm like, yo, do you want to try it? Um, cause it's just like, you just feel like, It's like having a coffee without the jitters, you know, um, like I, I ripped this, you know, right before we got on, you know, cause like, I love coffee.

Like I make, I have, I don't know, 800 worth of like coffee equipment sitting right to my right with like the scale kettle, um, coffee grinder for my pour overs. Like I love coffee, but I can't fall asleep. If I have caffeine past, you know, like 12 PM, you know, so, so that like, that's a little quick, you know, to have before my second runs instantly turn, you know, 10, 15 minutes later, like a little bit of boost to energy would have extra focus.

Um, it's kind of that tunnel vision and also to where, for me, like where I've noticed it athletically is like the long run type stuff where I'm not quite running marathon pace, but where I'm running like five 35, 45, 50, which is that like 50, you know, 50 K 50 mile, a hundred K. Like, those are my distances at, you know, that's just what I'm good at.

Like, so it's like, it's perfect. [00:13:00] Cause you're not quite going to be burning through all your carbohydrates. You're going to be tapping into like your fat, your fat stores and all that. And that's where like, obviously ketosis is. That's where you're at, you know, where you're burning, where you're burning fats.

So when you have that, and you're already kind of going into ketosis mode, like producing those, like you already had these readily available also with carbs as a dual feeling. So it's just a, it's like, I don't want to go without it now. Like I don't do a run without taking it, you know, like even yesterday, like, and I hate, hate a minute of this.

Like I forgot to take it yesterday. Um, like before my run, I was like, kind of like, Oh fuck. But like, I mean, I felt, felt okay. Um, but I'm just like. Damn. I just know that I feel a little better when I'm on it, you know? So, yeah, once it's in the routine, you have that, that little primer for your entire run and your entire workout session, you're just like, your body's used to it, it's almost, uh, it's almost superstitious at some point.

Like, uh, just make sure you get that in. Oh, a hundred percent. That's like, it's a hundred percent superstition. Like I was completely fine yesterday, you know, but it's just like, it's like. [00:14:00] It's a little, like a little extra, like flip that switch where you just feel like a little more alert, a little more on, even though I do have a coffee every morning, um, it just, it stacks super, super well with, with my bread, with my nut butter, with my coffee.

Um, it's great. There's even some mornings where like, I'll just have one right away as I'm like making my coffee. And it's kind of weird. You feel it for even like the coffee hits, you know, so unreal. Is there anything from the strength? Um, strength training standpoint that you're doing with your training that has made a big impact for you.

I mean, I think for me, um, I mean, so I went ahead and like, I have pretty much everything I need in my garage. Like, Trap bar, boot ham machine. Um, just actually got a steam room down there, which I'm pretty stoked about. Yeah, it's a one, it's a one stall garage. So like, I also have a, I think I already said a trap bar, but a platform, barbell plates, bench, uh, I'm tread Peloton treadmills in there.

Like there's not much room left in there. Um, also like another, no car. Nope. My car is [00:15:00] a car's looking at it right now on the street. So, um, So yeah, definitely no car, but like, for me, it's like, it's all very, very runner specific. I'm in there at least twice a week. Um, doing like, even today I ran this morning, had actually an earlier meeting.

So I had to like, usually I go ref my run to my lift. Um, but today it was just like, you know, like, like warming up, like warm up, like roll out, work out the calves, um, then go to like, Half soleus isolation, um, kind of warmup squats, single leg. I still, I still work glute work, um, single leg, hip thrusts, um, deadlifts to box job.

I even do classic clean just cause I, I feel like super explosive off of that. Um, and I think it's helps like keeps muscle like rigidity and the pop, even that it makes five 45, 50 pace feel easy if, when you have a lot of pop, you know? So, um, yeah, I'm doing that weekly. You know, I think my, my favorite investment currently is just my trap bar.

Like I love just doing, like I said, deadlifts to box jumps, just feeling, feeling poppy. Um, kind of [00:16:00] doing everything I can to, like I said, like work, work my glutes, a ton of band work as well. Um, ton of core work. Like that was one thing. It was 10 minutes core right after I finished my lift. So just make sure that's strong throughout.

So obviously you don't want to weak core, you get lazy, you start, you know, shoulder starts sagging. You want to make sure you're uptight. Um, core activated and roll. So, right. And that's kind of a short, go ahead. I know it's kind of a short answer, but yeah, I mean, I do pretty comprehensive, like runner wise, you know, I don't do a ton of upper body.

I actually got that question earlier today on a different call. Like, Oh, what, like, do you do a ton of upper body work? Like I can bang on some pushups and some pull ups, but don't do much. Like the coolest thing I do is like. Core isolated rows with like my opposite leg is like elevated on a bench and I row here.

Um, but it's mostly core work a little bit of your back, but like any extra like weight appears as extra weight that I need to carry while I'm running. So I don't do a ton of our bodies, mostly very runner specific. Um, calf soleus glute quad [00:17:00] hamstring work. So, but it's all, I said, super, super tailored to.

Like one injury prevention to just being efficient while running. So totally. Yeah. I mean, it makes complete sense. And when I see these guys, like, um, you know, campaigns Goggins or, you know, even like Nick bears, uh, probably an even better example or true at Haynes, these guys who are just like a little bit more stacked than your standard endurance guy.

I'm like, how are they pulling that mass? And obviously they come from a lifting background. They're very strong guys. But, you know, it definitely, you're compromising efficiency at being that size and having to go out and run these crazy long distances. A hundred percent. Yeah. And ultimately too, it's just like, how can I, you know, get from point A to point B the fastest?

It's like, yeah, you definitely want to be like strong. You want to be like, but ultimately it's like, how efficient can you be while doing the distance? How fast can you do it? So, um, yeah. And also it's like with Nick, it's like, You know, gotten to know Nick a little bit over the last couple of years. [00:18:00] Like dude ran under two 40, like with how big is super impressive, man.

But it's like, you see him where, you know, he goes from like bulking to like, to where he's at running. It's like, if he, even if he cuts, you know, probably five, seven more pounds, he's probably just cutting just by the way he's carrying, he's losing another. A few minutes off his marathon, you know, which is when you're his size, it's.

A lot easier to set than done, you know, but for me, it's like, how can I get my, you know, 140 pounds, you know, to go as fast, to go as fast as possible for, you know, 50, 50 miles, you know, or 62 miles. So, right. So what can people expect from you going forward? What are the big goals that you've got set for yourself?

I know you're, you seem like the type of person who's not going to, um, be slowing down anytime soon when it comes to setting big lofty goals. So excited to hear what you got in store for the next few years. Yeah, man. I mean, like, and I said this like right on my post when I, when I broke the world record was I'm taking this shit over and that's like, that's what I'm trying to do.

You know, I got the 50 mile world record. Ultimately, like, I want to go try to get the hundred K world record. I'm not quite sure [00:19:00] when, um, what this year, just kind of short term, the world heartache championships are December 7th, um, in India. So like, and I can confidently say now that like, if I'm on that line, fully healthy, like I have a great shot of winning.

Like, I think I'm the guy to beat truthfully. Um, when it comes to that race, obviously I've never run a hundred K. But I've also, I've also never run, ran 50 miles before I called my shot. So, um, I like my chances there. Um, the only caveat is that I'm not guaranteed to make the U S team, even with my 50 miler, they take that as a submission to make the team, but to get an auto spot, you have to run the U S a hundred K championships.

So those are coming up April 20th. So I probably, I got to figure out my glue. Like I I'm only running, you know, I've run. I ran 10 miles a morning, which is not enough, you know, like I'm just, I'm managing and doing what I can trying to, well, trying to heal this while also try to ramp up, which isn't very smart, but I'm, I'm doing what I can.

Um, so like, I guess to go back to your question, so probably a hundred K championships, April 20th. Um, well, definitely like, that's going to be the goal, go win [00:20:00] that if I was fully fit. Um, I try to say I'm going for the world record, but it's just not a, not a fast course either. But ultimately it's like, go, go in the, go in the U S title, get the auto spot, go try to win a, win a world title.

Um, then after that 2025, just like, let's go see, like, let's go make sure I get the a hundred K world record. Hopefully. Hopefully I have a world title. I can chase the world record there. I mean, I'd love to have those two, the 50 mile, a hundred K. Um, then ultimately at some point, I'll definitely see what I can do on the trails.

Cause I have, I have the speed for it. I'm not sure. I, I'm not sure I still have the technical footwork, you know, from basketball days, but hopefully I can, hopefully that, that isn't too lost on me. Cause that'll definitely help, you know, on, on the trails someday. So, um, I love to go try to win like a Western States.

That's definitely a few years down the road, but we'll definitely, you know, fill stuff in between. I definitely think I'm a little untapped at the marathon too. I think I can run two 12 to 13, 216. So I'd love to try to also like lower that. Cause I think that'll, that'll ultimately help me at the like 50 mile, a hundred K as well.

Um, so we'll kind of see what I can do and get [00:21:00] ready, honestly, just make sure I'm at another big marathon trials in 28, um, in some capacity. So, well, no, not in some capacity, make sure I'm racing it. Um, Yeah. So kind of your goal, long term trails, but also like maintain that marathon speed. So that's, uh, kind of the long, short answer.

How long is the Western trails race? That's a hundred miler. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So, and here's the thing too, like, and everyone asks me to like, Oh, you should go for like the a hundred mile, like world record. Like that is so far. Like I don't like, and even like, even like 50 miles is far, like, don't get like, that's a long way to run, you know, like even, even a hundred K like, You know, and I think I could go get the a hundred, a hundred mile world record, just like the road world record.

But like, that is so long, man. Like that's, that's, you know, I don't even know the record is 10, 11 hours of just like, I don't want to, like, I don't want to do that that long. Like I can be locked in for. Five, six hours. But like [00:22:00] beyond that, it's like, what are, what are we doing? This is half a day, you know?

So, um, but yeah, that's the thing. They can go back to Western states. Like that's a, that's a trail race. So obviously, so it takes longer, but it's a little more scenic, you know? So, yeah, totally. I love it, dude. Well, you've got me totally pumped up. I'm running the Austin marathon this weekend. Uh, and incredibly undertrained, but I'm going to be thinking about this.

Thinking about this conversation the whole time. Hopefully ready to, uh, put a decent time out there, but you know, I, I'm just incredibly appreciative of the time and, uh, stoked to follow you as you keep going after these goals, man. It's, uh, really incredibly exciting to see you just. Pursue this stuff with all your heart and, um, you know, you've been doing it for so long.

So just excited to see the trajectory that you're on. It's sweet. Yeah, of course, man. Thank you. And like, like I was telling you, just break it down, like get up that first hill for three miles, roll that downhill, get back to downtown, attack the hills over from like, you know, 10K to half marathon, roll back, you know, like just break it down.

You got [00:23:00] it. So I love it. I love it. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll show you a text afterwards, but I appreciate you brother. And we'll talk soon. Yeah. Thank you, man. Appreciate you.

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