Speak Friend and Enter: A Lord of the Rings Podcast | Deep Dive - The Valar

Hosts Lydia and Stephanie discuss the Valar: Tolkien's pantheon.

What is Speak Friend and Enter: A Lord of the Rings Podcast ?

Speak Friend and Enter is a weekly discussion on all things Lord of the Rings hosted by friends Lydia & Stephanie. Come along with us as we explore the world of Tolkien through deep dives, read-alongs, and laugh-alongs.

Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and lafflons.

We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hi there and welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. This is me, Stephanie.

And this is Lydia, the other co-host.

And we're so excited that you can join us today for our discussion of the Valar, which I'm very excited about. So in our previous episode, we kind of went over the creation of the world and we dug into a little bit, kind of the one main creator of Tolkien's world, which is Eru Eluvatar. And as a part of that creation story, we were also introduced to some of these beings that became known as the Valar. And I would kind of say they're what reminds me of like maybe the gods of Middle Earth.

Yeah, I looked at them and I think this is a pantheon. This is the gods of the pantheon, whereas we have Eru Eluvatar as being like the creator. It's the creator feels different, more removed. Yeah. I feel like Tolkien just wanted to have fun.

He needed a pantheon.

He needed a pantheon. Of course. So we have this, these Valar.

So we've only met three of them.

Yeah, we've only talked about a few. Monwe. Yes. We have Meldkor or Mordoth.

Yes, he has the body. And then we have Manwe's wife, who is obviously the smartest.

Also Marybomb. I know. And so there's a whole set of them. We're going to go through. Technically, I think there's like 15 before Mordoth gets kicked out.

He gets banished. So when they're all sent down at first, it's 15.

I think to be fair, if I'm remembering this correctly, it's 14, including Mordoth. OK, then he's banished.

He's banished and someone else joins them. Yeah, I'm just kind of curious because it's funny to see like it's interesting always to see like the symbology of numbers, right? So like seven being like a holy number. Six being like the devil's number because it's like one off of seven.

Oh, nice. And it is why the six, six, six is a thing because seven, seven, seven is the number of perfection. And that's why six, six, six is the devil's number because it's just one off.

He's always missing the mark. That's how I've seen it explained, which is a really fun thing. So I looked at this and I'm like, so what is the my question is, what is the holy number of these gods that get sound to the world? And 14 is a really interesting number. It's a nice, even number. It's nice and even. It's got, you know, two times seven. So there's that. There's the seven embedded in it. But I kind of feel like I guess.

The odd man out. Melchor or more. Yeah. Once he gets kicked out.

Yeah. So it's just interesting to me. So I'm not like, I'm not surprised it's 14. I don't know why I was thinking it would be 12. I don't know if I'm thinking he does a Greek pan. They don't have 12. Is that why I'm thinking of that number? Maybe. Um, but yeah. So that was just my thought. I was like, 14 is interesting, but I like it.

It's a good number. It's a good number. I like it. Yeah. We get some variety in there. So we have. Yes. So we have 14 that comes down, including more goth. He gets kicked out and he gets replaced. So if you count him, there's like 15. No, he doesn't count. He doesn't count.

So 14. There's 14 spots. Exactly. And these Valar, they were spirits kind of in this higher hall with Eru Eluvatar, they helped sing the world into existence. They helped create everything. Create everything.

And he sends them down to this world that they helped create. And he says, I want you to manage it. I want you to just do it. And I want to help you. I want you to help finish creating things. So he's asking them, I think, to create light sources, to create plants, to create. We were talking about this, I think, like some beasts, um, to have just like finish the process of creation on the world.

And so I thought what we could do to kind of fully flesh out our understanding of this set is I did not know that there were 14 of them, which I feel like is a lot. You're thinking to yourself, no.

That's a lot to cover. And there are some that are definitely written about more and

seem to have like a more prominent role. So we have like the main characters. Yes. We have like more main characters. And then we have some that are kind of referenced a little bit. You learn a little bit about their specialty because along with sending them down and saying, Hey, I want you to, you know, help finish, create the earth.

This is your subdomain. They all kind of had specific areas, which is why we're kind of comparing it to Greek or maybe Norse mythology is they all had specific areas that they seemed to kind of be like God of, right? Have responsibility or dominion over.

So would it be easier for you or like easier to listen to if we said, let's talk about the main cast and then we'll talk about the side characters. Yeah, we can split it out that way if you want, or if it's easier, just be like in alphabetical order. Yeah. All of the names start with a, you know, either way is fine by me.

I thought maybe what I would do. As I would go through the list of names with what they're kind of like little specialty is. Yes.

And then I thought we could deep dive, like go and revisit the ones that are most important. Okay. And some of them are going to be most important. Some of them I might only have like a couple of sentences on, but I thought we could go from most important to maybe like the, the ones with the less information. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. So I'll go through the ones who are less involved in drama.

The drama live in their best life. Exactly. Okay. So we technically, because there's 14, because, uh, Morgoth was replaced. We have seven lords and we have seven ladies. And going through here, we've talked about this earlier as well. There's going to be six in each group that are partnered with each other. And then I believe there's one single individual of each group.

I think it's hilarious. Just thinking to like my stage in life where it's like, of course, there's the single friend and everyone, all of

the, all of my friends, friends are married. Not sure why.

You know what's interesting? I was reading, so he has partnered a lot of people, um, Tolkien did, but I was reading also that in some of his writings, I don't think this entered the Somerillian, which is as I understand it, kind of like, um, the more finalized versions, right?

Yeah. The more finalized thoughts that he had that his son put together. But in some of his sketch writings, he, he played with the idea of them being able to have children. And I don't think that entered the official Somerillian.

He just part of that. Yeah. Yeah. So he did partner them, but we're not seeing, I think, any kids. Maybe that would be an eventual scene. Like not in this age, but maybe there's an age down the road where it's like, and now the valor can have children.

Cause he keeps it kind of open-ended the future of Arda. Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay. So we're going to go through the lords and then the ladies and then we can deep dive.

Perfect. Um, so in our list of the lords, we have Manway, King of the winds, King of the Valar, husband of Varda. Varda. I kind of love that name because it reminds me of Arda, the earth. And it's with a V. It's with a V.

Varda. I like that. Okay. So now we know a name for the clever girl. Yes.

Exactly. The kind of the queen, if you would say, um, of the valor. All right. Next we have Olmo, the king of the seas, Lord of water. Gives me strong Poseidon vibes. Strong. Okay. I figured out how to say his name correctly this time. We have Ale.

I was like, you lay. I'm still kind of. You lay. Ale. Ale.

It's Ale. The Smith. And he is the Lord of like everything that's in the earth.

You kind of get like the earth. So do you get more Hephaestus vibes or more Hades? I get more Hephaestus vibes. Okay. Cause Hades is like God of the earth. And I would say we have, we have a comparable first. Okay. Cause like in, in, I think in Greece, they used to, they wouldn't name him obviously, right? Cause he's God of death. And so like they also would call him the rich one

because he had the riches of the earth, which I thought was like a fabulous name for that. That's really good. The rich one. The rich one. So did. Oh my gosh. I love it.

Okay. So more Hephaestus. Yes. That's the vibe I get. And he is husband of Yvanna. Okay. We have Oram, the Huntsman.

Wait, Hainthai, who was our second guy? Oh, our second guy was Olmo.

Olmo? Olmo.

Was he married? He actually is our single individual. That was Neptune, right? That was Poseidon. Yeah. He gives me strong, like your really sweet older uncle, who's also a little bit of a hermit.

That's the vibe that he gives me, but I really like him. Interesting. Okay.

All right. I just want to clarify who was single here. Yes. So he is our single man.

Yes. He decided to find out who's the last lady. Well, he might not be old. He could be really young. He really spry. He's got hermit vibes. But he's got hermit vibes. He's a little more distant. Okay. Okay. So Oram, the huntsman, the lord of the forests, the great writer, and his husband of this is Apollo Artemis type five.

Kind of that.

Yeah. I'm really, I have to compare them to the great. So this is the pantheon. I know the best.

And I'm like, wow, these are strong comparisons. Actually, I'm curious, we could deep dive into this further. What's the significance of having a hunter God?

It's something not important. I don't know. It's very interesting. I look at that as part of the cycle of life. Yeah. Um, as part of like, I don't know.

I feel like that's an interesting question that I want to look into because there's a lot of hunt mythologies, right? You've got, you know, all the Halloween hunt mythology, all kinds of stuff. And I don't know the significance of it. I at least not off the top of my head. Do I know it? Um, so that's something to look into. I really like that thought. Yeah.

I'm curious. We can talk more about it, but next one on the list, we have Nemo or Mando's, the doorsman, the judge of the dead. Huh. And he is partnered with there. VA I R E there. I might have to go through and correct some of my pronunciation, but I really like these names. Okay. Then after him, we have Emo or Lorian.

He is the Lord and master of dreams, visions and desires. Okay. I'm liking that. He is the husband of estay. Okay.

And then the last of our Lords is Tulkas. I really like him. Did he name him after himself? I don't know. Tulkas. He's the wrestler, the champion of the Valinor, and he comes to Arda as a replacement for Morgoth and actually to help defeat Morgoth.

What was Morgoth's title? Ooh. Do we know? So we can pause and look it up. That's fine. I'm very curious.

Well, he has a lot of titles after.

Right. But before, like what was his assigned domain?

I think he likes, I don't know what his assigned domain, but he likes to tell himself, and I've seen this place is that he is the mightiest of the Valar. I see. So he was really strong. That's his self assigned title. That's kind of the self assigned title. It was the mightiest of the Valar. He's pretty old. He was one of the older of the Inor.

The way you described it, it sounds like he gave the rest of them a run for their money.

So I gave him a run for their money. So Tulkas came down. He was kind of the champion. I like this comparable. I feel like Norse mythology or someone like this, but he's a laffer. He wrestles, he laughs.

He's like that bold, really strong. He said that you're going to brawl with at the bottom. Yeah, exactly. That's the vibe of Tulkas. Okay. Cool. I like that. We're going into our ladies. We have Varda, the star queen, queen of the Valar and wife of Manway. Nice. We have Yavanna, the fruit giver, the lady of earth, and she is the wife of Aole. Right. And this is, she was the one who asked for the aunts to be born. She was the one who asked for the aunts to be born.

Okay. Yeah. Got it. Uh, Niana, she's the weeper, the lady of mercy and grief. Whoa.

So I think of her as just like the impath, the impath of the group. I am fascinated because I don't know of a strong comparable for her. And like, I'm curious why he thought this was such an important thing. The lady of mercy. So first off, the combination of mercy and grief. Yeah. Pristine. Strong. Um, that, that is, that's really nice. Um, yeah. I don't think I know of a version like this.

And I will say she is our, she is our single lady. Okay. She is our, which I think it's interesting, the impath. We're the therapist. Yeah. I know. She's the what, yeah.

Interesting. But I really like her. I think she's a fascinating Niana. Okay. Yeah. Um, we have Estee, the gentle lady of healing and rest. Perfect. Um, we have there, which is the VAI, RE there.

Uh-huh. And the weaver, which I think it's called the weaver. And she is the wife of Mando's, who is kind of the Hades equivalent. And so when I think of her there, the weaver, I think of the fates weaving kind of lives, but she has a different twist on it. And we'll talk about that when we get down to like some more description of her and her duties. But I think that's fascinating.

The weaver is married to the, you know, kind of the Lord of death, the judge. Yeah. Um, okay. We have Vanna, the, and she's the ever young, the wife of Oron. And she's, I kind of get Persephone, like spring, flowers, all of that stuff.

Remind me, Oron was in charge of what? Oron is forest, the hunter. Okay.

So he's not, he's not quite a Hades. No. Yeah. But I did, she was like spring and flowers. Yeah. And then the last one for our ladies is Nessa, the dancer. She was just like joyful and like dancing, which matches with Tolkis. He was her partner. Yes.

So how are we judging their marriages?

We could go in healthy. Honestly, we could go through and like maybe we'll start reading something for someone, really. And then we're like, okay,

we're going to, we're going to rate the relationships. That could be a future thought.

A future episode. Cause right now, like you saw like Tolkis and Nessa, they seem like a perfect match.

They seem like a perfect match. Very happy. He's going to wrestle. She's going to dance around. They're going to laugh. It's going to be great. There you go. Okay. So now we're going to go into a deep dive of some of our, I would say more strong personalities and then we'll kind of go down to the ones where maybe I feel a little less content on, but we're going to start with Manway, the Lord of the Valar. The Zeus equivalent. The Zeus equivalent. He is the Lord of the Skies.

And he's obviously not cheating on his wife constantly.

No, he sounds like a very good guy. I think, oh, so some equivalents that I saw when I was reading up on it. So they do have like the Greek Zeus, the North Odin. So anything like with the Skies, the Lord of the group. And Tina Peans, right?

Yeah, Tina Peans. This is what it is. He also has a little bit of like a Saint Michael Archangel equivalent because he's kind of the number one Error Warrior. He's the one who's kind of saying like, no, like he's the counterpart of Melchor, I would say, is Manway or Morgoth is Manway. And also the group picked him. So Morgoth, Morgoth, yeah, Morgoth came down and he was like, you should pick me.

I am the mightiest. And they said, nah, and they picked Manway. Oh, sad. So that's kind of there.

That's kind of there, I would say the counterbalance between the two. OK. And he's the one that I think we talked about in the previous episode as well. He's so good.

You kind of, I don't want to say good issues because he's like, he's so good. He's almost good where he's like so in rapture with like the good and doing good. And he's so responsible and all these things that when Morgoth comes back around and he's like, I'm so sorry, like they capture him. I'm seeing the light. He's like, yeah, of course you would.

You know what I mean? Like he can't even cover your hands. Yeah, he can't even cover your head that he would that Morgoth would want to do.

Like pursue the bad. Like he just doesn't get it. Right. That's how what a good guy Manway seems to be.

OK, so a detail that I wanted to pull out. I love all of these other like associations that they have for Manway. Something that really stood out to me as I was looking at this.

Oh, one that I thought was interesting. He's kind of considered the high priest when it comes to connections with Eru. So not all of the Valar are having like normal combos.

Yeah, I think you mentioned that. So he's the one who seems to have the most direct connection.

He seems to have the most direct connection there. And he kind of is like doing.

I wonder if that's why they picked him. They're like, look, we're going to need some direction.

Eru sent us down. Who's tight? Who's tight with Sarah? Exactly. Just like, look, if you're on the group project and you know somebody who's really is like the teacher's pet. You say to yourself, well, the teacher assigned us a theme to do, but we don't know when, where or what the being will be. What's going to happen?

You know, I would have been mad. Yeah. Yeah. So he's kind of the high priest in that sense of like the connection between the world and Eru. And there could be a little bit of like he in terms of religion, like he's the one who's kind of the connection. Yeah.

And this is a question that I have and we'll answer this maybe later. Whenever I get one of my big questions when it comes to the gods, right? We're looking here at a pantheon and it occurred to me like in fantasy in general, you often have gods, but rarely do you show the worship of the gods.

Rarely do you see religion and effect in the society? Yeah, it's just it's just rare. Yeah. And I enjoy there are books that have pulled it off really well, whose titles I'm blaming on at this moment.

But like there are books that show that kind of effect. And I enjoy it. I think it's fun because it feels like if I was in a look, if I was in a world where the gods were so real that people were seeing them every day, I for sure would worship something.

Yeah, for sure. So it's fun to see like what like their idea of like religious rights or or traditions would definitely.

And we could talk about this later. I think they've had different levels of interaction interaction at different periods of time with different groups of people. So I think that definitely influenced.

OK, because when I look at Tolkien, I think it's fascinating that he is, I think, a deeply religious man. Yeah. But his books and you don't have to insert everything in your life into your books. But it's interesting that he has so many gods and yet I can't think of it.

Maybe it's just escaping me. But like I don't see any like worship in the books. And I think that that kind of trope, that kind of setup definitely got transmitted to the rest of fantasy, which is just it's just fun to think about. You're like, of course, this is why it happened because Tolkien didn't do it. If Tolkien had done it, we would literally would have seen it. We would have seen it more. There would be less chosen ones and more. I'm a novice in the priesthood.

That would be a big strong fantasy trope if Tolkien had done it. Well, and what's fascinating is he has written letters and comments where he's like religion is in my books, right?

And it is because it's there. But it's not necessarily in the structure that maybe we see in some of the churches and stuff around today, which is totally fine. And this is a whole tangent.

We can either come off it or not come off it. But like in Tolkien's works. Yeah, I just I agreed with him. Obviously, he knows better. But I see a lot of religious themes and they're beautiful. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it's really fascinating to dig into. Okay, so we're going to go now to Manway's wife, Varda. So this is the queen of the Valar. Her name in is means a blind or lofty. She is called Queen of the Stars.

And it's her responsible drama, right? We'll see. I mean, she's she's been there for all the drama. But oh, oh, wait. Oh, my gosh, wait, I have to backtrack.

I didn't share the detail I wanted to share about Manway. Because I got so distracted.

Okay, quick, quick going back to Manway. So one thing that I love is we were talking about beasts and the creation of beasts in a previous episode. And we said that the Valar has kind of been responsible for creating some of the beasts.

Morgoth, of course, has created some of the beasts as well. So Manway was kind of responsible for devising the great eagles. And I am going to I wanted to bring this up because the great eagles are the ones that we see kind of present in Lord of the Rings when it comes to like saving Gandalf off of the tower from Sororan. Sam and Frodo at the end. And so what's fascinating is these great eagles. These are just like typical eagles, right?

Yeah, huge. These great eagles. And they're very intelligent, right? They're very intelligent. And they're large.

Okay, I can't I don't know if these animals and Tolkien's world spoke. But they can communicate. But they can communicate. And they have an ability to align themselves in like a higher thinking pattern. Because they're aligning themselves with gods, they're aligning themselves with battles.

So are the eagles like when you say align it, does that mean the eagles are aligned with Manway? Or they're just aligned with good as a concept or a real avatar?

Like how does that work? Eagles are specifically aligned with Manway. And they are considered part of his eyes to keep an eye on the world.

And so what's fascinating is in Lord of the Rings, they're almost demigods. They're almost an extension of Manway.

Or what do you would call that like an aspect?

Oh yeah, I'm not sure because they're not a descendant, but they're like some aspects of Manway out in the world. Because in Lord of the Rings, we're in the movies and even in the books, or not, I don't know, I might have any. I'm like, I'm not seeing a lot about deity, like any influence of a greater person. We could talk about Gandalf coming back. But and but I feel like this is a direct thing, a detail in the stories where these are Manway's eyes.

And also they are under the direction of Manway's protection and power. So Gandalf, spoiler alert, but for later, we'll talk about this. He's a Maier, right? Which is not as powerful as the Valar. But Maiers are very aligned with different Valar and their wills and their goals.

Really each one has an alignment with a particular Valar.

And it doesn't have to be just with one Valar, but they have like specific relationships with Valar. And so by Gandalf like sending, I don't know, like sending that moth and the eagle is coming or the eagle is being aware and present, like they are working off of the desires of Manway. Like Manway is aware of the situation and he is.

That's really cool because like you go from Gandalf's speech to a moth to Gandalf is having an intercessory prayer.

Like this is not just a conversation between him and his eagle buddies.

Like he's not just like I'm in a friendship with this eagle at a bar and we've just been really tight since then. This is something that goes way to check one day. This is something that goes way beyond this to a deeper relationship with his relationship with a Valar. And that Valar being Manway watching out for him. That's really cool. I love that. Which I think is fascinating and is just like a little detail of.

Well, you would know that I have never caught that context like at all. So that's really neat. So I love that.

Okay. So now we're going to go into Varda. Perfect. Sorry. Queen of the Valar.

I'm always here through you. Queen of the stars. Yes. She is also. So I love her power. It's her power is in light and in joy. She brought, she created the stars and she set the paths because we know the sun and the moon were a light source, the third light source officially. She set the paths for the sun and the moon to travel across the sky so they could bring light into the world. And so she is kind of like starlight. I feel like in Lord of the Rings.

So I was going to ask about this is like, exactly with the elves. So when I'm not, I'm going to butcher it, but our one has the necklace, which is the star of the light of the star.

So is it an actual star? There is her necklace. Yeah. Like is it literally a star that they just like have put into a necklace or something along those lines?

It's not technically the star. I don't believe, but it's like, it's weird because they can somehow pull the power or the light from a star, which is essentially pulling from Varda. Her power, her light that she's imbued into these products.

So when the elves have these stars, like when Delagio does Frodo, I forget the name of that light, but when she does the light of Elendil. So is it then Varda's power? Okay.

So you're just giving a head. You're just giving a head to some of my favorite pieces. But okay, we'll get there.

We'll get there. Yes. So she has a big power because

like you were saying, the elves seem to the stars. There's a whole like, there's a lot of power in the stars in Tolkien's mythology, which is really interesting. And so I think that's, it's interesting that it's such a specific and powerful thing in this world. And that's kind of her area.

And just like you said, like with the eagles, where like once you know, you can't unsee it.

You can't unsee the index. It's now like, oh, wow, that's really cool. It's everywhere. It's embedded everywhere in the books.

It's embedded into the world. So as they're using things and as they're referencing things, you can't help but see the ties of where these things are coming from and who was involved. And yeah, all of that good stuff. So, okay. Yes. So that is her kind of area of responsibility. Something that we mentioned before that I love is she was the one when Moragoth kind of had a situation where he was like, I've been captured.

Oh no, I'm really sorry about what I did. I kind of want- When he's crying his false crocodile tears. He's crying his false tears. And her husband's like, yeah, of course you were changed. Just like, why would you not?

She was the one- Did you imagine her reaction? She's like, my husband, he's so dumb. He's not. But so good.

And I love him so much. I know. But he's so dumb.

But you're not seeing this. And so I read this here and I'm curious if this is- We're from the subformin on this, but it was some research that said that Moragoth kind of hated and feared her the most because she could see through his deceit, right? And so she was against releasing him in this scenario. And hopefully we can go into more details about his life in the next episode. But in this scenario where he was like, I'm so sorry. And she was like, uh-uh.

I'm not taking it. I'm not seeing it.

But she was sadly outvoted. It sounds like- She is outvoted. She was sadly outvoted. But I love that. This is democracy, guys.

I think that speaks to her character too, though. You can kind of see because she's the lady of the stars. It's very ethereal.

You think that this might be a soft woman. You might think this is a soft woman. But it's not. This is cold hard light.

This is truth and fact.

You see this woman who's like, I don't believe you. She discerns. She knows. I see her deceit. Yeah. I like that. I mean, she feels very powerful. She feels powerful to me. I love that. I love that.

And then this is kind of going back this detail to what we were saying earlier. The elves loved her most of the Valar. Right? They loved the stars. They would sing her praises.

That's interesting between that competition between her and Ivana, like of the trees.

That surprises me. So. I love that though. I love it. I think it's super interesting.

Because when I think of elves, I actually associate them more with greenery and trees and stuff. I would not necessarily say, ah, yes. The stars. The number one connection is elves and stars. Yeah. But now I think I might.

It's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. And then I found this too, which I thought was interesting, this detail, which was saying when saying that when she sat upon her throne, she was able to hear more clearly than like other Valar, like the prayers or laments of those in the world. And specifically like the elves or other people who are kind of praying or lamenting or speaking their mind kind of to the sky, to the world, that she had like the best ears. Interesting.

I loved that of like the Valar. She could kind of hear people more. Because the Valar aren't always super aware. Yeah.

We talked about that before. And I think that's just such a fun concept because then you open up the possibility of there can exist conspiracy, there can exist deceit and it can deceit even the Valar. Exactly. Because they don't have omniscience. Omniscience is just tricky, you know? Yeah. You can't have a fun story with omniscience. It's hard. Yeah.

And so, okay. So with that being said, where it's like she could kind of, she could almost hear and be more aware of people. I think it's fascinating because this ties into the books when they give Frodo and Sam this gift of a light of a rendil, which is a very strong star.

And they give it to them and you'll see in the battle against Shelob where Frodo actually calls out to the star and calls for its power and the star responds. Yes. Yes. And it glows and it's able to blind Shelob and get them out of a very precarious situation.

Do you think that Frodo knows that he's calling on Varda?

I don't know if he does. Because, well, it says that these words came to him. Yes. It says that these words came to him. These are, I don't think things that he like studied before.

Because it's not like, I don't know, it's interesting because they're not dropping the name of the Valar in the books. They're not. It's not just like, oh yeah, my favorite God. An appeal to this person. Yeah, my favorite God, Manwe. And then I was praying the other day to Varda.

Like nobody's saying that. So it makes me wonder, like how far removed are people from the Valar? Is this like, are the names of the Valar like something that only the wizards know? Or something that only the wizards care about? I think so. Like I feel like anyone who's knowledgeable should know what they are. But I mean, Frodo's educated, but is he educated in that?

I don't know if he is.

Kind of fun. Yeah. And so that for a week. He was inspired to like, speech the words that saved him. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm trying to look. So the words that saved him were in Quenya, which is like the original form of alibis. And the phrase translates to hail a rendil brightest of stars.

And it says that Frodo doesn't understand the words. Interesting. And so it's interesting because like you said, it's not referring to. It's not referring to Varda. Yeah.

To Varda, the God, but it's referring to the power of the star, which is through her power. So anyways, I love that. Another detail where you're just like, I'm not seeing the world building that's Tolkien dead coming into the movies.

But then as you do research, you're like, I'm seeing the world building come into the movie.

Which is fun because I mean, they did a good job in that in helping people who already knew this, they'd be satisfied. They would be not maybe not satisfied, but they'd be gratified. That, ah, yes, they have the light. Oh yeah. He's calling the words. Ah, perfect. Varda. And I'm sitting there thinking, Dai-shi-lap.

Because I don't know any better. Okay. And then the last little bit that I have here on Varda is this was just some speculation that I thought was really interesting. So it was talking about like comparisons from her to like, there's a Greek pantheon, there's like Hera, there's other people, Aphrodite, they even said. Like, because she's supposed to be very beautiful and. Most loved of all the gods.

Most loved of all the gods, right. And so they were saying that there is a little bit of adoration here where she's like out of all the Valar kind of maybe the one that's most homage and loved and appreciated. And so someone was saying, I wonder if there's almost like a tie between like the mother Mary vibes of like this very revered woman from religious context. I don't know. I thought that was an interesting comparison there. I like that. Yeah. From Tolkien's own Catholic faith. Okay. So that is Varda.

And that's our first set done. And these guys are main characters. These are heavily involved in old drama.

These are like the king and queen. They have opinions on stuff. We're seeing them act. Perfect. We have Olmao. Olmao is our man. I like to get like a sweet but kind of hermit uncle. This is Neptune. This is essentially Poseidon. Yes. Okay. And he is our single dude.

No partnership here. And I think it's really interesting because there's a lot of very easy parallels to like Poseidon, Neptune, kind of the classic god of the sea vibes. But there's a couple other details that I think kind of flesh out his personality, which I think is interesting. One of them is that a lot of the Valar at a certain point, they all kind of live together. And then at a certain point, they're all put into Valinor. They all go to Valinor, which is this very specific part of Middle Earth.

It's kind of separated from the rest of stuff that's going on. But Olmao, he doesn't live there. He chooses to live in the oceans, the lakes, the rivers. He wants to live in the earth.

That's the hermit kind of vibe. Yeah. So he doesn't live with everybody else. Interesting. He doesn't live with everybody else. He lives out in the waters, in the world, which I think is interesting. He doesn't always show up for councils, except if they're like really important. So he's not always there.

I respect that. Most meetings are not worth your time. Most meetings might not be worth it. And so he's thinking to himself, this is why I voted Manway into office.

Yeah, exactly. So I don't have to attend these meetings.

It was your job. So there are some references of him being influential in certain battles and like coming to the end of heroes.

So when he does show up, he pulls through. He pulls through, but he's not there for every discussion. So we're not seeing his opinion on everything. We're not going into a lot of depth, I feel like, about his actions. Out of curiosity. So when, I guess we'll talk more about this maybe after we go through this rundown, but like are there people who are siding with Mordoth? When Mordoth is doing, when stirring up trouble here, like is he causing division within the Valar?

Oh yeah, for sure.

Oh snap, nice. For sure, obviously. Good. I will be very curious who sides with him.

Well, because we have the people, like I said, Manway was like, was totally really sent. Oh man. Varda was like, her, his wife was like, uh, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And there's other opinions too.

Okay, okay. I was curious, but that sounds, that sounds great.

That's the level of drama I need. I actually don't know what almost opinion was. I feel like he would be doubtful. Yeah. He seems like he's, he's.

He's out in the world. He's experiencing things. Okay, something else I loved about him. So it said of all the Ainor, which is like that host of angels that the Valar are kind of descent part of, he was the most deeply instructed in music. He loved music and he created his own instrument and it was said, so he lived in a very under a very specific body of water. I'm not sure if I see it here in my notes, but he lived in a very specific body of water. And what was sweet is it was said that as you descended into the water, you could hear just like music emanating in the water around his home. And I just thought like with waves and ripples and the correlation between like music and water, it made a lot of sense to me that he would be like the god of water and yet almost like the god of music.

I love that. Slightly off topic, but it reminded me of something. I don't know if I don't remember the exact word they used to describe this, but sometimes the astronauts when they're out doing their space walks, they describe hearing music.

No, I'm using this. And like it's a very weird out of body experience, obviously space walking. And obviously they're just going a little crazy while they're out there.

Who knows, but they call it the music of the heavens. Oh, I love that. And it's kind of that same vibe because like, you know, you're weightless, you're floating in the water, you're floating in space.

Yeah, like the vibrations.

Who knows? Yeah, that's why. Like if they're going a little crazy, I would also probably hear music, but like, I think that's fun. I love that.

Okay. Yes. So that's kind of similar about like the music, the water, the vibrations. He's in, he's in that he loves, he loves sitting, you know, in the waters with the music. And, but he is a boss because they say when he is seen, he uses the form of an enormous wave, or he's rarely in his human form, but it says when he's in his human form, he appears dreadful and terrible as a mounting wave that strides onto land. He has a deep foam crusted home, shimmering green male and a voice like the deep ocean. So he's fascinating. He's like not always there.

So he's either terrifying dread human or tsunami

or tsunami or just a really like musical music lover.

We have three options.

Violence, violence and peace. Yes, exactly. Let's see if I have a last detail here. Oh, I thought this was cute too. And so basically it sounds like he's Manway's buddy. Manway and although they're like buddy buddies, probably like the closest, I guess, in terms of these friendships. And they like to come together. It makes me think of like little, little team projects with the clouds and the sky or the miss and the do.

So we have Vanway, he's kind of in the air. They wave at each other. Yeah, almost at the water and they have these collaborations. That's really cute. Okay. Yeah, I really like him. He's nice.

All right, we're going on to Auley, the inventor, the Smith, the lord of the

earth and all things that are named. Is he father of dwarves? Like, do they call him that? He's father of dwarves. Okay. The dwarves do. Okay, that's another one. The dwarves have a name for him. Let's say, or they call him, I see it right here, is called, they call him maker. Maker.

The hall maker. Perfect. And so he is the one, I think we talked about this as well, which has maybe the most similar traits to Morgoth in a positive way.

Yeah. Where he loves to create things, but not for the dominion and the possession of these things or because he wants to control them. He's a generous God. See, he just loves to create. He loves to create. And so he creates the dwarves. And he's amazing at metal smithing, right? Known as a blacksmith.

Yeah. And so he creates a lot of really beautiful items as well. Does Sauron learn?

Sauron learns from him. Yes. Fascinating. He is kind of a myar, which we'll go into that term in another deep dive. Yeah. That is under the tutorship of Aule. Okay. It's like somebody's gotta be teaching Sauron how to do messed up stuff.

That he uses as messed up stuff.

Yes. So he, so, and some of his greatest works. So we talked about the different light sources that come through the world. At first, there's a light source of the two lamps. Those get destroyed. Secondly, there's a light source of two trees which get destroyed.

And then there's the light source of the sun and the moon. Is he building any of these? He builds them. So some of his greatest works are the two lamps. The trees actually are not his project. The trees are more his wife.

Okay. Some of the people are involved. But the sun and the moon are receptacles that he works on as well. So the two lamps and the sun and the moon and the dwarves. He also created the chain of Melkor, which was what was used to subdue more gods. To bind him. Slash Melkor when he was, yeah, captured and not in, yeah, not in the greatest spot.

Out of curiosity, he meets this chain. It's probably a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And then they let Melkor go. How does he feel about all the work he put into his chain?

I think this chain is actually used a little more towards the end. Okay. Yeah. I think that I could be wrong. Maybe this chain has multiple uses. Okay. We'll have to see when this chain of Melkor comes into being. Like next, next episode.

Because it would make me laugh. He's like, look, I spent years forging that.

Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to see what else we have here in terms of, in terms of different things. Yeah. It just talks about his, his love to, to create, but also like willing to submit to the will of Eluvatar, right? And everything that he created.

Literally everything more gods should be, but isn't. And he also, it sounds like he doesn't have like jealousy when it comes to creations. Like, it sounds like with morgos slash Melkor, he saw Eluvatar's creations and he was like, Oh, I want that. I want to be able to make that. I wanted to make that. And he doesn't necessarily have jealousy over other people's creations. He just enjoys making himself to create beauty. So he seems like a solid guy. I really like that. I'm waiting for him. I like him.

But I think it's so funny that he is married to Yvanna. Yes. And we had a story about the two of them, which I thought was really interesting. So Yvanna to give context, she's the giver of fruits, mother earth vibes, Demeter from like the, the Greek pantheon or Roman pantheon might be Demeter. And she creates trees and plants or might be an allusion to some Fauna to creating maybe some animals and.

But only nice animals that don't hurt her trees. Yeah. That don't hurt her trees. She's not treating wood petters or like bore beetles or anything like that. Maybe anything like that. Maybe anything is better for that.

And she helped create, she helped create the light source of the silver and the golden trees. Yes. Perfect. When those were needed. And technically there was a flower and a golden fruit from the trees once they were destroyed. Just one flower? Just one flower that was left once they were destroyed and one fruit from the golden tree it was destroyed. And she harvest those, saved those and she gave them to her husband.

And her husband used those as to fashion like a vessel for the sun and the moon. So it was a little bit of a team project there. Interesting. Which is cool. But the story I love about her, which is also funny. We talked about in the creation episode, but is where she's created all this beautiful earth. Right.

The vegetation, the trees, everything like that. Everything's going great. Until. It's going great. And then all these beings are coming up, the elves. I feel like they're probably not the problem children.

Man and dwarves. Yes, the way creates the dwarves. And Eru kind, you know, created that he is, he's like, sure, I'll give them the spark of life. So they come to be, we all know how they love their axes and they love to build. And so they see all of this greenery and these trees and they think construction material. And then they come along and they think construction material.

They probably looked at the doors and thought, oh, of course that's what you use trees for.

And so you get the impression there's a point of time where you want us like, oh my gosh, like these things are being utilized not to just bring joy and beauty, but they're being, they're being torn down.

They're cutting it up. And planting a new tree every day.

They're not growing as fast as they used to. Like they are caring for my creations. They're using them, right. And it was really. interesting that she gets to a point where she's so sad about this she creates a plea she brings her concerns up to Manway and she creates a prayer for Iru to take you know to take pity on her creation.

Does she have Manway talk to Iru Louvatar?

It sounds like she does both. She says she brings her concerns to Manway and she she goes to Iru. Good for her.

Taking every option available.

Yeah she's like this is high priority. We're not waiting to see like we're not we're putting at the bottom of Manway's to-do list. We're not waiting until he gets there.

Sounds like she's like we need to talk about this. Yes. And it's really sweet so she goes she's like I'm concerned about this. This is a big concern to me. And Iru takes pity on Yovanna and he answered her plea by creating the ends. That's beautiful. To protect her trees. Yeah. And I just think that's so sweet and that really speaks to Yovanna to me too. Where I'm like she's this creator she loves her plants she loves her trees but I love how she's not just like stagnantly sitting back when like she's like

no who's gonna care for my creations. Let's go. Let's make this work. Like other people are creating things and including her husband. His creation starts cutting down hers and I'm like that would be a big conversation. Yes it would be. It would be a big conversation.

Like manage your children but I see how you know how they as like kind of the hands-off parent is like they're gonna do what they want to do.

I don't know what to say and she's like oh my gosh.

So I'll take this into my own hands.

I'll take this into my own hands right. And she does.

So do we ever have like a war between the doors and the ends? Are they bitter enemies?

No but remember in the movies

when Ghibli comes in he has his axe and they're like the trees built kind of violent towards you. Yeah. Like you need to be careful because the trees don't have fun feelings towards you. Yes. Right. That's so fun. We get the vibe.

They're a married couple but there's a little bit of... There's a little bit of tension. I'm amazed that the ends of the doors are kind of the result of the married couple.

It's either the most healthy relationship or the least healthy.

The least healthy. I can't tell. Yeah. Okay. Enemies still lovers. I love it. I love it. I think it's so great. Opposites do attract. Opposites do attract.

Honestly it gives me that vibe. Opposites. Okay. Alright. Moving on. Nienna. N-I-E-N-N-A. Nienna. I think that's how it does. Anyways, I really like her. She is our not partnered Valar lady and her name means she who weeps and she is responsible for mercy and grief spread across Arda.

So we have a God of Justice, you know our version of Hades. Yeah. Is she kind of his counterpart?

I don't think she is the counterpart. I did read though in another version of Tolkien's ideas. He had Nienna being a sister to kind of more of our Hades counterpart Lord.

But I don't think he ended up with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Which I don't even quite understand like sisters and brothers in the whole. In this context. I know our Valar context.

Yeah. Cause I think they're all created by the same Eru, Eluvatar. It sounds like not at the same time and with different power capabilities. So maybe in terms of brothers and sisters, there's like batches.

Yeah. Maybe so. We have this four. We've got like a generation. Yeah. We have like different generations. So it was kind of a batch process. That would be interesting. But I just think, so this was my thought when it comes to her. I'll finish reading about her. So I think of her as like the empath of the group, the weeper, the lady of mercy.

And it says, but the lesson of Nienna I think is not just about like grief, but it's also about like having pity and having hope and a spirit of endurance. She was one of the Valar that had pity on Melkor. And she actually spoke on his behalf when

he was saying, Hey, I think I want to have a change of heart. Because she was the one who went to the Valar and she said, I want to speak on his behalf. So I am amazed by her. I just think she's such a deep person. But then who would have probably felt she probably would have felt the grief very strongly when she saw Morgoth deciding not to take a path of well, I mean, she is the lady of mercy. It completely made sense to me that she should do that. That is in her nature.

It's in her, like her duty and prerogative to champion those. And then yeah, I know actually, when we were talking before, I was like mercy and grief, what an odd combination. Now in this particular situation, it's the perfect set. It's the mercy and the grief for when your mercy is not accepted, or something similar to that concept. I feel that that's a great connection.

Or just like, and it's always like with grief, I think of like, well, I love kind of the idea of the concept that grief is like love and during, right?

Like when you're when you're sad, it's because you had like this hope or this love. And that's not quite there or being met. And so I think of her very much as like the soft, not the softest, but maybe like the most important really in touch with love of humans. Yeah. Whereas like care. And then maybe when care is difficult, that love is not, I don't know, the grief part of being, being having that empathy.

Does it say so? Like, do these valor, do they, do they talk to humans? Or did they just have relationships with the elves? Cause like we talked about the elves worshiping Varda or loving

her most and living in a space very close with the baller.

And then like, I don't know much about Numenor, but I know that they have longer lives. Like Aragorn is longer lived. Yes. So like, are there men who also kind of had these like higher relationships?

There are some men who are known with speaking with and engaging with the gods. But I would say it's a little more rare. Yeah, it would have to be. It's a little more rare. Yeah. But there are stories of them and hopefully we get to dig into all those awesome stories. Okay. But I just think she's super interesting because I don't know a comparable and like another one that I'm aware of.

There's not one that's popping to mind, but I really love this role. And then this is something that I saw that I thought was such an interesting tie. And I'm curious this could, you know, if this is true, this could just be an observation. But it was said that one of her pupils was Gandalf. And so like I said, there are certain Maiar which are like aligned with different Valar. I think Gandalf is also aligned. We talked about with Manway or some of the goals of the Valar there.

We talked about sort of learning from Owl. Yeah, it's not like you have to be just one, have a relationship with one Valar.

You might have a really close relationship with. Yeah, but I thought it was interesting that Gandalf had some experience with Niana. And I wonder how that changed him when it came to how he approached the world of Middle Earth.

How he approaches Gollum. Oh my gosh. I think there's that.

It's also interesting. Because he definitely bends towards Mercy there. Yes. It's a very powerful speech like can you give him life? When you take it, can you give it back?

And he says, can you be an accurate judge? Yeah. Can you know what his life is worth? Right? Like if it's good or bad or I feel like that could be a Niana influence. Yeah. Anyways, so very powerful. Also, the gray hood, she is known for wearing gray. And so technically there is some, I have to go into research.

Some speculation of like the blue wizards, the gray wizards, which is Gandalf, the white wizards. And if that had to do with the wizard hierarchy, but also there was a thought like, is there an homage there? Is there an homage to him being dressed in gray? Yes. As like in respect or as some beloved his teacher is one of the Valor associated with the color white. I don't know. You know, like Gandalf the white, that would be an interesting question. Like when we dive into Gandalf, his light, it's blur. His story. Consider that.

I'm so interested in that. Yes. Okay. Anyways, I think she's, I really like her. The more than I'm talking about her, I'm like, she might be my favorite. Yeah, she's like, oh, she's so cool. Okay. Moving on. Oro, O-R-O-M-E, Oro, the hornblower, the God of the hunt, the lord of the forest. Is it really the hornblower? Yeah, that's one of the, one of the interpretations of this thing. I

would be very curious. I'll have to do some looking. I would be very curious to know which myth is the hunt and the hornblower and all this. Yeah. Because those are very bit in wheel time. That's a huge mythology. Oh yeah.

It's massive. Yeah. So like, obviously they're all talking about something that I'm not, I mean, it's the wild hunt probably, but I'm not overly familiar with the wild hunt because I don't know my Norse mythology as well.

Yeah, I know. I feel like there was something in Norse mythology. There's Orion, there's Artemis, there's Apollo. Yeah, there's stuff.

I don't understand it on the same level. I understand like the God of the sea. Yeah, there's a, there's so many different illusions to a hunter god. Yeah. And I don't know why.

I don't get it. Yeah. I don't know if it's like defender or if it's a food source or what it is, but there's a lot of God. I think it's the act of the hunt itself. Yeah. And like, we're not hunters. I have never hunted in my life.

I almost tried. That's why in like a modern time period, it's interesting to me.

Yeah. Cause like, we don't appreciate that. And maybe if we hunted, we would know this. We would know. But like, well, here's my side story. Like I was thinking to myself, oh yeah, I just got my bow.

I got it. Like I should get a hunting license, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, I get the hunting license. Turns out that you have to hunt in the cold season. And I was not about to do outside during November.

So I never used it. So you're like, nope, not for me.

Anyways, that was funny. But yeah, I'm just fascinated by it and so many mythologies. There's this symbol of the hunter.

Yeah, it's really cool. We'll have to, we'll have to like, get down into that at some point.

I do like, he's a little bit of a laundry, like wanders, rides through the earth. And he is the one who discovers the elves after he creates them out of all the valor, right?

He's the first because he's everyone's just knuckled down in their palaces. Like, I've got to build a net scene. The deadline is coming.

We don't know when the deadline is coming, but it's here.

Everyone's like freaking out trying to get their homework done. And he's like, I'm gonna go for a ride.

He's kind of like wandering through the earth. Like I said, there's different time periods. Yeah, where the gods are in different places. And but they usually tend to like kind of join together, live in a general spot. And it sounds like Olmo lives in the waters. He's kind of out there. And then Oral, he seems like he's wandering. Okay, he's kind of staying.

Maybe part of the hunter aspect is this wandering spirit, this exploratory spirit. I don't know. That is a strong character in man, right? We see that less because there are less frontiers to explore, but like, getting to the new world, like all kinds of exploration was happening all the time. Yeah, I mean, all this Greek history where it's like, and then they just explored and then they just made a new city. I'm like, man, they were just making new cities every day.

It's really amazing that people could yeah. That's fascinating. Oh, I'm also saying Mixed Codel, that's one of the other gods that I saw that has like a hunter homage, which I thought was so interesting. So I'm just saying they're from everywhere.

They're from all over this hunter homage. But something I really liked there is this reference to he being like a big husband, but also that he could like train folk and beasts in pursuit of evil creatures.

So he's like a beast master as well. I was getting the vibe of like a protector, right? So what he's saying is like, I would teach you how to take care of yourself, right?

And how to like defend. I see him being like, roll on. I can see him really aligning with this, this dollar. Yeah, it's just like the horn, the rider, defending yourself.

I don't know the hunt. I could just, yeah, I could see that a lot. Okay, so we are going on to Vanna and she is married to a married to Oram who we just talked about. Just want to make sure I'm still lined up.

Yes, I think I tried to line it up so that we're going with kind of pairs here. And she is the fair one, the bringer of life and spring, strong Persephone vibes. We're getting flowers. We're getting birds singing at her coming. We're not getting abduction vibes. No abduction.

No, that was taken out. You probably read it and thought, not for me. Not for me, not in this world.

And she's robed in flowers. And she'll walk through the woods with her husband. So her husband is like the forester. I like that.

You know, a forest god with a forest queen.

Forest queen. Yeah. So they'll walk through the woods together, which I thought was so nice. And this is one of the goddesses, I guess. I mean, they're technically a lot gods and goddesses.

They're the ballard, but it's such a similar vibe. Or she has like the maidens dancing, right? Like there's kind of a little bit of a little bit of Artemis there.

Like some maidens dancing in the spring and the flower. She has a garden. She keeps this beautiful garden, which I think is really nice. Is this garden still in Valinor? Yes, I believe so. Okay.

So it's like, it's an extant garden. It's the elves probably have been there.

Oh, I don't know if the elves have, if the elves have been there, but that would be really cool.

Because like that's Garden of Eden right there, right?

That's Garden of Eden vibes. So maybe they were. But I think it's interesting because Yvanna, she's kind of Mother Earth. I wonder why they felt like, because there is the spring versus Mother Earth vibes, but why flowers? Why spring and life? Is it almost like the coming back of?

I feel like it's a particular kind of beauty. It's ephemeral, right? The flowers aren't there all the time. They're stunning when they are, but they're just so delicate. So there's like massive variation, but they're so delicate and they're just, they're not, I don't know what flower season what, it's like two months, maybe? Three months?

If you're in a lucky place? It's a very short time period of time. So I think it just denotes, it feels, it's a completely different feeling to me than say Mother Earth, right? Mother Earth is lawn enduring.

There's so much going on with trees.

Yeah. It feels like something that has deeper roots. Cupaces whereas a flower God, where God is a spring, like this is, it just feels sweeter.

It feels bright.

It feels very, yeah, like sweeter and lighter and more delicate in the year. Yeah. Yeah. So I just think it's so interesting why we have this homage to, you know, I think this is the couple where I'm like, why, why is there a purpose?

Why the spray? I think they're beautiful. Yes. But I'm just curious. I'm like, this is in a lot of mythology as well. I'm like, there's something distinctive enough in the mindsets of people throughout time.

And maybe what it really is, is that when winter ends and we finally did to spring, there's so many fervent thank you prayers.

Yeah. You're just like, this is special. This needs its own thing. Yes.

I have felt that. I have felt that deeply.

I felt that. Right to spring right now. I love it. I'm so happy it's here.

Anyways, yeah. So that's what I know about her. Just lovely, a cute partnership. Okay. So now we're going to go to Nemo Armandos. And this is the Master of Spirits judge or a dainter. He gives the Hades vibes. Hades, Stanatos. He lives in the Hall of Mandoz where he summons the spirits of the slain. And what's interesting here is I'm not getting any like doom and darkness necessarily.

He doesn't necessarily have like a dreadful appearance.

A dreadful. I'm not getting that. He does pronounce judgments at the bidding of Manway. So I don't know if that's like, there's going to be, you know, some people that they have judgments for.

Well, I have a question about that. So like Aragorn, when he talks to the mountain men, the cursed mountain men. Yes. So when they broke their oath, their oath and they were cursed. Sounds like they were impergatory.

Did he curse them? Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that was a curse. Because they were slaying, right? That was the curse of Aragorn's ancestor. Okay. Okay.

On them because they broke their oath. I wasn't sure what the source of that is. But it sounds like they were in this in-between spot. So they hadn't quite reached their final judgment.

They could not go to the Hall of Mandoz, right? Which is, and I think about Rohan too in that scene when Theodon's son is dead and Gandalf says, you know, his spirit is going to make the way to the halls of your fathers. So when I get the, when I'm reading about this, I'm not getting a dark and dreary world.

It's more like a Valhalla. I'm getting a spirit of the slain. Yeah. Where it's like, but then, you know, everybody's got to be there, right? So like, I don't know what this, this judgment is, but also what's interesting is so Mandoz is the one that has supposedly a little bit of the gift of prophecy. Okay. The gift of prophecy.

So he's got a little bit from Apollo.

He's able to see a little bit of what's going to be going on.

And you said before it's not accurate, the judgments. Well, this is what's interesting. So we have Manway who has the most direct communication with Eru that we can find in the world building. And then we have Mandoz who's kind of able to see some prophets to say some prophecies of what's going to happen in the future. But it was, I think kind of caveat it that neither of them know the full scope of what Eru has in store for Arda. Based off of what we know about Eru Luvatar, he's not going to tell him.

It sounds like he keeps a little bit of information close to his chest. So it sounds like Mandoz and Manway. It's top secret. Trying to chat with each other about like, what do we think the future is going to fold, what are some, almost a little strategy meeting? How do we, how do we think we're going to move forward with this?

So in the like, when, ah, can't speak, in times of duress, like in extreme moments, like the Melkor situation. Yeah. So let's say Mordoth has come back and he's like, hey, I didn't mean to do all those evil things that I did to all of y'all. I'm so sorry.

How can I make it up, et cetera, et cetera. So obviously, like Manway and Mandoz are going to be consulting. Was there a prophecy that like swayed them one way or another? Do you know? I don't know.

I don't know, but that would be so interesting to look at too. All right, we'll find out. Because I'm curious what kind of prophecies he has.

Yeah. Yeah. I love prophecy. I mean, I'm always going to talk about will time, but like, will time has a very strong prophecy element. Yes. And it has a lot of really fun twists on it. Like your normal standard fantasy prophecy, but also not. I know. We should kind of go into this. And it's like a lovely tool because as a writer, you're like, hey, I'm a foreshadow of something

for you here and you're not going to understand it. In a little bit of detail. Yes, I love it. But it's in the back of your mind the whole time you're reading the books and it's just fun. I love that.

Okay. Well, he has a mystery to him. I feel like we could go and do more, figure out some more stuff about him. But yeah, I think it's super interesting take on kind of the Hades personality. And okay, now we're going to go to his partnership there. V-A-I-R-E. The weaver. The fates. I think about the fates. That's the first thing that I think about is I'm like, oh, is she weaving people's lives?

All this stuff. But as I was reading about it, I actually thought it's super interesting. So she lives in the Hall of Mando as well, which is the spirits of the slango. And what I am seeing is that it says with the passages of time and many ages, her woven tapestries expanded and closed the walls of the halls of the dead. And she talks to specific, it sounds like people who have passed away and she's given tasks to record deeds.

So is she weaving their stories then? She is almost a historian. She's not weaving their lives in terms of like what's going to happen to you in the present day. If she's recording what did. She is a recorder of stories. And so she weaves tapestries almost to like to record the history of the world, which I think is so, what a cool role to be the historian of Middle-Earth. Also, way to pick the hardest method. Have you seen tapestries? They're beautiful. They're beautiful. But like dang dude.

But this is a full-time job, right? Like she's got a lot of stories going on. This is a beautiful full-time job. I saw a tapestry recently. I'm not sure I remember where or what it was, but it was like 12 foot by 15 probably.

It was so incredible. We got right up to it. And you're just looking at your thinking, how do you even plan out a tapestry?

Like how do you know what to put in? It's just a different way of thinking. It's so cool.

And we talked about this briefly the other day when we were just chatting about how like computer science essentially evolved out of the complexity of the loom. It's really cool. Wild. I can't believe that. Yeah. So anyways, like yeah. So weavers are legit. She's way cool.

She's way cool. I think like what a cool job. Like some of these things I'm like that sounds a little difficult to try to manage that. This one I'm like I could do history.

I could do history. That could be fun. I could do like some tapestries and stuff. Like there's such cool stories. I don't know. You're kind of at a point where you're not trying to direct the future of the world. You're just saying tell me your life. Yeah, exactly. You did to sit down post. Post.

Tell me your life. And let me write. Let me weave something about this. So interesting. Cool. Okay. Going on. We're getting closer. We're doing going into some characters. I think have a little bit less information for me, but we're getting to the end. So we have Irmo or Lorian.

Is there a reason he has like two names? And they're vastly different. A lot of these a lot of these have two names because I think in Elvish there's like the Quenya, which is the original Elvish.

And then there's Cinderan, which is kind of like a little bit later on. Get the impression like maybe involved in a few iterations. And maybe it's just the way it really is in the world where every single God seems to have hundreds of different names.

Yeah, that's true. And then there's probably different versions and the Dormish tongue and other titles. Yeah. So there's a whole bunch of stuff going on. But he has a really interesting role and he is the master of visions and dreams.

But not prophecies. Are visions different from prophecies? Prophecies.

So Mandoz, he gets prophecies for the world, right?

Okay. Right, right, right. And visions could be you giving, sorry, I was thinking about it. I was like, I hear a prophecy is different from a vision. Vision is like in the moment you're receiving a dream or some kind of foresight, but it's not the same thing as having a prophecy. Like it may not reach as long. It may just be relevant to one single moment in your life. Like that's how I feel like visions are talked about.

You know what's so interesting is so he is the master of like visions and dreams. So it's like a limited prophecy. But it was said like he is associated with hope and inspiration.

So he can send like like send hope to the children of Aluvatar and times of darkness. So vision and dreams almost in the sense of like see a hopeful future for you. Move forward with like a vision of how things could be. It makes me think of like Aragorn when, oh, actually Elrond, when he's speaking to Arwen. And he says, let me show you like what I see is your future.

Elrond has a gift of prophecy, right? Yeah, he has a little bit of gift of foresight. Or visions or something like that. Yeah, foresight. Yeah. And so he says, let me see what, let me show you what I could see as your future. And she's, Arwen sees it and she's so sad, right? But then she sees something.

Because he's a bad dad and keeping the truth from her.

Well, he did see multiple options and he admitted to say that. And so, but then Arwen sees something. And she's a vision of her life. And she says, oh my gosh, there's hope. Yes. Right? Like you showed me one version of this, which was very unhopeful.

But there's a version of this, which is hopeful. Yeah. And it makes me wonder, did he send that to her specifically?

Was that sent? Is this another instance of the gods like impacting the world?

When we go through the books in detail or whatever references that moment, I would be very curious to find that out. Yeah. That would be really cool.

But I think he has such an interesting role, like kind of the hopeful visions and dreams. Okay, we are going to go into, so this is his partner, I believe, Estay. Feels like Esther.

It does, doesn't it? But that's probably just like a false friend, you know, when you're learning a new language and you think you know the word, but it's just a filthy lie.

You're like, wait a second, not quite. Oh, I think, so she has a really beautiful role. I like her. So her, a Quenya word means rest.

Okay. Oh, she's the son of healing and rest.

Yeah. She is kind of responsible for healing and rest, which I think is so interesting because her partner is dreams and visions. So we're getting like a sleep. A very like sleep. They were meant for each other.

Restorative. So isn't Rivendell called the houses of rest? Oh, is that true? I actually don't know. Something Elvin is called the house of rest or the houses of rest. That phrase seems really familiar to me. And I wonder if they're like dedicated to her or something like that. I love that. And what, sorry, remind me her name again? Estay. Estay. Okay. Yeah, I have not heard this one.

And I think it's so interesting. So apparently her and her partner, they live on this island and it has like the lake of Lorian around it and there's, they drew, they draw a refreshment. Lorian as in Loth Lorian? Yeah.

Lorian is the name of the second name of the God of Dreams. Yeah. Okay. And so Loth Lorian is referring to almost like, I'm not sure exactly the exact naming. Let me look that up. I'm very curious. But it's referring to some kind of dream reference of the God. So Loth Lorian, also known as Lorian was the vast woodlands. Yes. Yes. Okay.

Tell me more. So even the name of that area, that region refers to him. Yes.

That's very cool. Because it's like, after this dream like rest like place.

Yeah. Cause it's gradual to me. I feel like based off the movies, she's associated with visions to me. Right. When she takes Frodo down to the, the water and shows him a vision of the shire. Yes. And yeah. I don't know. That's very interesting.

I feel like that's a very specific tool to that.

It's gotta be a tool that I wanted to only works in there. I kind of want to go into it more. Okay. So this, what I'm reading here says Loth Lorian is mean Lorian of the blossom or like dream flower. Almost like, could it be like dream, dream land, dream flower? Like they're referencing a direct reference

to the name of the God of Dreams. Wild. Okay. So that's kind of interesting.

We can no longer say that the Valor is subtext. They are main text.

There is a name. There is a name referenced in the movies. So yes, Estee and her partner live in this very dream like restful state in this restful place. And it sounds like there are a few different people throughout time. Elves and I think maybe even one man, let's see some men that go to these gardens of Lorian and they rest and they heal.

So when Frodo leaves with the elves at the end, they're going to Valinor. They're not going to these gardens.

Well, I think these gardens are part of Valinor.

Potentially. It's in the west. Of Valinor. Yes. Okay. So he could be getting that rest. Yes. And that healing because that's what he needs. And I love, love, love that that's how Tolton ends it with Frodo where it's like, you come back from the war, but not all of you comes back.

I mean, it's such a bitter sweet ending.

But then there's this hope that he goes to the west and he can maybe finally have the healing that he needs. Yes.

Oh, and it's so interesting because there's specific character being referenced. This is just a little bit more in Estee. It's a specific character being referenced that serves Estee and kind of tends the gardens of Lorian and then comes to Middle-Earth. So I wonder if there were people, elves particularly, who saw the garden, had tended it, and then the little Lorian reference, if they knew how to create this peaceful restful.

I'm trying to remember. I think that Rivendell maybe is named the House of Rest. Like I wonder if it's like people came in, they're like. An homage of her. Or kind of like how nobody apparently can, nobody's original when they name a place.

They're all references. We have England and we have New England. We have Hampshire and we have New Hampshire. Like nobody's original. So I wonder if it's a similar effect of that. Like they're coming over to this mainland, this Middle-Earth area, and they're like, well, we used to live in Lothlorian. Now we do it in. Or maybe Loth means new. So they used to live in Lorian and now they live in Lothlorian.

I love it. I love it. But it's another kind of like, this is the closest reference to like an homage and a reference, which is fascinating. So, and I think they're perfectly paired. So I love that. So that's Estee kind of the goddess of healing and rest. Okay, we're getting into our last two or last partnership.

I really like this one though. This is Tulkus and Quinia, I mean strong or steadfast. And he is the Valah. So fun fact, Valah is singular. Valar is plural. I will strive to remember that. I know. So he is the Valah who descended when they were having issues with my goddess.

And so was it, well, how was this? I want to know who called on the phone and said, hey, we're having some problems. Yeah, we've got a few issues and we need you to send a replacement, you know, just in case.

Just in case. Because like, had they already kicked Maltor out? Like, was he gone and then they called in it or they like, I bet it was, I bet it was Varda. Varda calls up and goes, hey, it's Vidiot.

That's the thing that we talked about. You needed to do something.

You needed to send somebody right now. So what I believe the timeline, some information surrounding this is the Valar came down. I believe that they were trying to set up the earth, but Morgoth. Did he did, does he did it in the way? He was getting in the way.

So they don't even finish the creation. They were trying to set up the earth and they were struggling. They were struggling and that's a huge sign. Like all of them against him, he was causing issues. And so I think that was the point when Tulkus came down and he changed the tides.

I see. So he was just enough to weigh in. He was the tip and they're not, he's known as the champion of the Valar. He's very strong. You can get that from his name, Strong's Dead Fast.

He's the wrestler, the laugher. Does, um, out of curiosity. So this is just so I know where we are in the timeline. They are having issues with Morgoth prior to the elves being born. Yes.

This is prior. That's interesting. This is even prior, I believe.

It's kind of interesting because when we talked about creation, yeah, when we talked about the creation story, I was thinking, well, we got Lucifer vibes. So where's, where's our war in heaven? You know, when is that going to happen? And it sounds like this is it.

It started right away. This is the war in heaven. So he left. The war in the heavens just above Arda is not the same, it's not quite the same vibe as what I was expecting, but it's close. Yeah.

So it sounds like the song happened for the creation of the world. Obviously, Morgoth was having some say about it. Yes. Was too happy about it. He leaves the presence, you're kind of getting the sense of Eru with

these other Malar and descends down to Arda. Yeah. And out of Eru Aluvatar's immediate presence, he has even morally a way to do what he wants.

Exactly. And so they get down to Arda and it sounds like the other people are like, okay, let's get started.

Let's get to work. Let's get to work. And he's like, that's not what I have planned. And so he immediately starts meddling and trying to get in the way of some of the creations. Is he trying to prevent the creation from succeeding? He's trying to prevent the creations of Eru succeeding. I think he is trying to bend things to his will. I see. So he's in here. This is when they're like, we want Manway to be the team leader. And he's like, yeah.

So he's in there. The creation work is happening and he's doing his best to warp it. Yeah. Okay.

He's trying to warp it to his own designs. Yeah, for you. And so at some point they're like, dude, you're a problem. Yes.

Like you keep getting in the way.

Not notice at first.

Well, I'm not sure. I don't know how long it takes for them to be like, oh my gosh, why are you doing this?

And so then my impression is there will start to be some conflict. There will start to be some conflict where they're like, okay, we're now actively trying to go against you to try to say stop this. Right. Like we need to push forward.

I'm trying to figure out what is stuck with in the group project at school.

Oh my gosh. Because he's not slacking. That sounds so intense. He's not slacking. It's like you're all working.

My way or the highway. Well, no, it's like you're all working in the doodle dock. And you've assigned. Everyone has a different assignment. I'm section one. You're section two. That guy is section three. And then there's the fourth guy. And all he does is edit things that other people have already written.

Yeah, he's like, no, I don't like it. Yeah, they're like, come on, we've got to go in this path, this direction. And so Tocus comes down and he's what tips the scales.

Okay. He's what tips the scales. And I love the way he described it. He was like described as a wrestler. He has strength. He doesn't wield a weapon or write a steed. It sounds like he's not like super.

He's turned down Melkor with his bare hands. Maybe right off. I haven't read that, but that would be amazing. And he does sounds doesn't

sound like he's that into like predicting the future or being that complex when it comes to strategy, but he's very much like. Wait a second.

So Tocus is married to. Oh, yes.

He does have a partner. We're going to talk about her next. Right. So he is married to Nessa.

So he's married to Nessa. Is he married to Nessa before he comes down? No, he comes down first.

Okay. So Nessa was single. Nessa was single. Ah, good for her.

We'll score the last bachelor.

Maybe we should go to their dating situation. Honestly, we should. Isn't that funny? When did these people get partnered? Right. Right. Cause like why would if he was already married to Nessa before he got sent down, why wasn't he sent down in the initial batch? So obviously they were not married.

They weren't. And then he comes down and then they get married. So there was a wedding. There was a wedding. That's pretty cool.

There was a wedding. That's pretty cool. Which is kind of fun. And they had to date in front of all the other Valar. Ah, kind of awkward maybe. Kind of awkward. Actually I'm digitally curious because you go into dating stories.

That's very funny. But yeah, he just seems like. I wanted to clarify that because my initial thought was Meltor or Morgoth was married to Nessa initially. I don't think so.

But I haven't looked into it in the partnership for him. I was wondering if Nessa was down there. So like when they sent tokens down, did they send Nessa or was she single, etc. She was already there. So she was already there. Yeah. And yeah, he just seems like a laugher, a warrior. Just maybe not the best strategist, but he's just like there. He's there to get the job done.

And there was one job to do.

And there was one job to do and he did it. So good for him.

Entirely successful. Good for him. So really like him. And okay, going on to Nessa, because I feel like they are such a cute pair. I probably have the least on Nessa to be honest. But from what I can tell, they seem like a really good match because she is the Valar that's kind of known for dancing. Her name actually in Kenyan means young. So you just get the like this very useful vibe from her.

She's also known for her speed, which kind of gave me like a Hermes situation vibe. Sure. The messenger. But she's, I don't think she's a messenger. She's known for her speed. She's known for being swift. She's known for kind of like dancing throughout the world and the never fading green lawns of Valinor.

Are the elves known for dancing? Because I don't think of them as being known for dancing.

I think of them as being known for singing. I think of them as being known for like music and poetry. But I think of them as being rather stayed, you know, a little bit too regal to dance. Yeah, that's kind of the vibe I get. Right. So like a god of dancing is really interesting because this is really the god of the shire. This is the god of man. They should have a better relationship with her than the elves. Yeah. Anyways, that just occurs to me. That's fun.

And it's super cute because yeah, that's the vibe that they get where she and Tolka they're said to be full of mirth and revelry. And they're dancing.

I just don't feel like the elves are like that. They're laughing. I mean, I'm glad that there's some representation for our hobbits. Maybe so. They need to, obviously they love the earth as well. But I'm glad that there's, yeah. I kind of get maybe like a little bit of mischief and devious vibes from her. I don't know. I could be wrong. But she seems really fine. So that is kind of the deep dive into all of the 14 Valar that we know are in Arda.

All right. I love that. So I want to ask one last question just to make sure we have 14. Yes. Are we always going to have 14 or is it possible for them to die? Oh. You know what I mean?

I have not seen. I don't know if we even talked about that. I have not seen evidence. Of them dying. Nobody has died.

Maybe that's something we're reserving for the fifth age.

Maybe that's something we're referring. Yeah. To the fifth age, obviously we know that Maiar, I kind of like the level below them, they can die. They can be put out of commission. I have not seen. Yeah. I have not seen evidence of that.

That's fine. That would be fun to look into. That's what I was curious about because like something that happens in fantasy a lot. And I don't know where they did this from but the fantasy genre in channel, I mean is that you are often talking about the death of the old God, the birth of the new God. The goal like so and so is trying to kill a God. I feel like that is a very strong vibe. Yeah. I don't really see that in Tolkien.

I thought you were going to ask could people leave, could there be new gods? And I would say from Tolkien's situation, I would say yes. I think people could leave the Valar. They could leave. They could go back. I think new ones could come.

Well, yeah. I think the angle I was going for was like did Meltor kill any of them? I am. And or can they die at all because then I was thinking about that whole thing in fantasy where it's like that seems like a strong element and I don't know where it came from.

I think it's the vibe of can I contain them? Can I knock them out? Can they be contained? Yeah. Can I remove them from the situation? Okay. More than can I kill them? Interesting. Okay.

Hence you need, I'm going to forget his name, Aule? Yes.

Yes, you need Aule to make you some feathers. Because that's what's so interesting too. It doesn't really sound like they're discussing how to kill.

Yeah, because there is no option. They're trying to get like get them out of the equation or contain him. Yeah, fascinating. Which is so interesting. Cool.

Well, that was an awesome rundown. Oh, thank you so much. That was a lot of people. So hopefully it makes a little bit of sense. You have a little more context for some of the characters.

I like, especially like the ones where we can almost make callbacks and say, ooh, in the book here or in the movie here.

There's something we need. It feels like there's a tie. That's really cool. And I love the Eagles. Yeah, I love the Eagles. And I love the star, the power of the stars. All of that is so good. Okay, last question, because I know this was a long one, but who's your favorite? Oh, all right, hold on.

Probably, I don't know about her name. Is it Nenea? Nienna. Nienna.

I think she might be my favorite too. Yeah, I mean, you really sold her hard. But like, I am easy to sell. Like Mercy and grief. I just think she's so interesting. And I really enjoyed those kinds of contradictions. I feel like there are a lot of gods, maybe not a lot, but in fantasy, I feel like there are a lot of gods where they explicitly define the God in contradictions. Like the God of love and hate. Yeah. Or, you know, that's too obvious. But like, there's always something that's like a slight contradiction or a slight twist. And I am a huge, huge fan of bittersweet. Yeah. So when I look at her, I think she would write me the bittersweet book I need.

Because like I said, and I'm sure there's something deep. Maybe we need to go into these more. But like the hunter God, the spring God, other ones.

I think you're missing something. It's very iconic. Yeah. And I love the idea of them. But to have the idea of like grief and mercy, having it something like that is so potent. Yeah, I really enjoy her.

That's a big thing. And I'm not going to like say, unfortunately, you're making me like melt or more and more. I know. Because you say things like he's creating dragons. He's slapping on his homework.

He's pretty cool. I know. I love dragons. See, I really resonate with him because I love the idea of creation. But I think as we get to know him more, we're going to see his flaws.

We're going to see his. Oh, we're going to see his flaws. He's going to show us his flaws. Oh, I love your drive. You know, I feel like there are some people this way too. Where it's like, I love your ambition.

Yes. But then you like see what they're actually doing. You're like, I question, I worry about this. But I love your drive.

So I feel like the more I get to know him, the more I'm going to enjoy him. I wouldn't say like, like I wouldn't like him as a person. But I am a villain lover. Like I love their drive.

I love their passion. I just their fun characters, right? And like in real time, almost all of my favorite people are like, yeah, give me some of that villain. Let's go. And they're fun.

He created a big story for him. He's doing so much.

He's going all over. And obviously, Tolkien enjoyed him. Obviously, Tolkien was putting something into him. I'm actually genuinely curious because Tolkien, I feel like has a pretty good bad guy, good guy vibe, but also the gray. Do you feel like there's a lot of gray? We can dig into that more.

I feel like if I knew more, I would know more about the gray. Because this part where I'm at, where I, the part that I'm most familiar with is, here we have an elf and here we have an orc. Which side do you think represents good? And which side do you think represents evil? Like parts of it seem too clear cut.

Too clear. But then the evil was morphed good. Exactly. Orcs were.

Which is really, really perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So that like the source of the evil, like kind of like the philosophy and the theology behind the inception is complicated. That's complicated. I really enjoy that. Okay.

So we will dig into more, but thank you so much for joining us for this episode. We're so happy you're here.

And we'll see you next time.

Bye.