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A podcast to disrupt common narratives and constructs to empower diverse communities. We provide inspirational content from entrepreneurs and leaders who are disrupting the status quo.
I think a bigger problem can come about
when they see you as a person.
Well, you're not like that. Right.
So like, yes, you may be black,
but you're not like most black people.
Right. So.
Because I've heard that.
Yeah.
Like, clearly I've gotten that
and I've tried to figure out
how to help a process that. So.
If you believe
we can change the narrative,
if you believe
we can change our communities,
if you believe we can change the outcomes,
then we can change the world.
I'm Rob Richardson.
Welcome to Disruption Now.
Welcome to Disruption.
Now I'm your host,
the moderator, Rob Richardson.
With me is Kerel Cooper with Group Black.
If you don't know Group Black, it's
one of the largest.
It is the largest
black owned media collective agency.
And it's about empowering
essentially more dollars that are there
that are being spent advertising dollars
to go back to the black creators.
They're actually creating the value.
This started as a as kind of a call
and a mission in 2020
after the awakening of people,
I guess, or the we were reawakening,
whatever you want to call it, right.
Got to feel
they went back to sleep a little bit,
but that's neither here nor there,
but grew black, started at that moment
to really bring a reckoning to media
advertising dollars
and making sure that they are being spent
in a more equitable way.
And Kerel is the president
of advertising that grew black,
and he's also the host of
the Minority podcast, which I've been on.
I encourage
you also to go on to that podcast.
Kerel, welcome.
Hey, Rob, how you doing?
It's good to be here.
And like you said, I appreciate
at the time when you were a guest
on my podcast
and and I'm looking forward to
being a guest on yours
and this conversation excited for.
Absolutely.
And it was great to have you at Midwest
and hope you'll come back and we can do
some this together with Midwest.
We already got the date,
so we want to do more with Group Black.
Excited to talk more.
But I want to get to something.
I just want to get right to it
and we'll get to levels.
In terms of your details of your career
and and what you're doing a group black
and how that's going.
But I like to really kind of
go to talk a little bit
more about your role
traditionally in your career.
I read in a podcast
a listen to a podcast that you were on,
and you said something that I think
every black leader
or any, frankly, leader that's
that's from a minority
group can understand.
Right?
You said a lot of times, almost always
in your career you that you've either
been the only one or the highest
ranking black person in that position,
and that brings that additional level
of pressure and stress.
What type of pressure and stress
does that bring being the sometimes only
or the highest ranking African-American
in the room or at the table?
Yeah.
So first, I've been in the digital
advertising space for 24 years
now, and up
until I joined Group Black a year
and a half ago,
that statement was was very true, right.
Of of for me throughout my career,
either being the only black leader
in the room or the highest ranking
black leader in the room.
And the I think the additional pressure
that it brings,
at least for me, is you feel like
you are in a way
carrying the flag and having, you know,
the entire weight of the black community
on your shoulders.
Right.
Because if you do a good job,
then that potentially
opens the door
for other black leaders to come in.
If you don't do a job,
it could have the opposite effect.
And so and so that's what I mean
about the additional stress.
I mean, we know as as black people,
it really in any industry
you have to overperform outperform
sometimes just to get to an even level
playing field with with your counterparts
that aren't black.
Right.
And so that additional weight of
of doing what I need to do
trying to overperform
and outperform others at the same time
opening the doors for others
that look like me.
Yeah, I believe there's a real tension
there too, on many different sides, right?
Because it's like you said, you don't
want to be the last one out the door.
And when they acknowledge it or not,
when you're the first, you do represent
for people that aren't aware or don't
necessarily have as a let's say, as a
as many diverse experiences
or friends, you're going to represent
what they think of black people.
Sometimes I've often actually think
that sometimes when they see it.
I think a bigger problem can come about
when they see you as a person.
Well, you're not like that, right?
So like, yes, you may be black, but
you're not like most black people, right?
So because I've heard that.
Yeah, like, clearly I've gotten that
and I've tried to figure out how to help
a process that.
So on one side
it's that on the other side it's
I've also dealt with the tension of other,
you know, black folks, frankly,
that haven't understood
that have had some difficulty
understanding
how to how you have to maneuver
those politics in the right way
to actually go about that.
So talk about those tensions.
So how do you deal with that? Right.
Like sometimes when you do a great job,
they don't see it as like,
this is what all people can do
that are black.
This is
maybe you're the exception to the rule.
How do you challenge that
and how do you challenge the other side
when folks are our own folks
sometimes don't understand
what you are actually doing
to open the door?
Because I've felt that before too.
So yeah, yeah.
No, I and I've talked about this
in in interviews that I've done
in the past too, earlier on in my career.
Code switching right.
Was was, was a big thing right for me
and obviously others that you know
maybe for you and others
that's like look like us. Right.
And tell the truth
as a part of what had to do.
Right. Right.
And you do it because again,
you don't feel comfortable in the room.
Sometimes you don't feel like
you belong in the room and you're doing
what you can to fit in right in many ways
so that you can stay in the room
and try to excel.
Right.
For me, you know, as I've as I've grown in
my career, got in senior positions
and really more confident and grounded in
and who I am.
Code switching is has gone away like I am.
Who I am.
And you know I am too now. Yeah,
we're good.
We're good.
Like you.
You know, you're hiring.
You're hiring me for me.
So I'm going to be me, right?
And and I always try to think
about successes that I have.
And, you know, again,
the successes that I have is, you know,
attributed to my work, my team's work,
you know, my companies work.
But I also tried my best
to promote successes
that other people that look like us in
the industry have as well, too.
You know, we check my LinkedIn feed, I'm
resharing stuff.
I'm saying congratulations
and doing all that.
So I think, you know,
to answer your question there, I think
you have to focus on doing what you do
and make sure again
you are performing
to the best of your ability, but
you also should be supporting
others around you
that look like you in the work
that they're doing as well too,
because that's the way you know,
you can show that you know more,
you know, black people
in leadership positions
coming up in their careers are performing
well and and are doing a great job
in the subject matter that they're focused
on, if you will.
Yes. I mean, I think
you know, where
I thought you might be going, particularly
when someone says like, well, you're the,
you know, the special Negro or whatever
you want to call it,
like the one like, you're different.
I thought you were
I thought you might talk about,
like, having a teachable moment with,
with some of your colleagues.
Like, I've had to do that.
And it was a it was an extreme example,
and I'll be very brief,
but I was on the board of the University
of Cincinnati,
and one of our officers had shot
and unjustifiably shot
and killed an African-American male.
And this is before 2020.
I mean, we know
had been happening for a long time. And
and and, you know,
one of my colleagues said, well, you know,
he was doing X, Y, Z,
and you wouldn't do that.
And, you know,
I had to take a pause and I and
and make him
understand that he wouldn't have known me
as the chairman of the board.
He would have seen a black man,
a tall black man.
And you have to understand,
I've been pulled over.
Gun has been pulled out of me
by an officer for no reason,
and I wasn't doing anything.
So I want you to know that it's not
that is not it has nothing to do
other than anything that this person
only saw my color and reacted in a way.
Yeah.
And it's not because he was a bad person
or I'm an exceptionally good black person.
And so I think I try to use those moments
and figure out a way
to deal with those modes.
I'm not sure if you had a moment like that
and if you can think about how you
communicated in a way
that was actually constructive
and actually taught people something.
If you don't, we can move on.
I just wanted to say, yeah, no, no, no.
I mean, listen, I have plenty of moments
throughout my life, in my career,
you know, similar to you, you know,
been pulled over for for no reason.
I have had situations
where I'm in meetings
and someone from an external organization
is coming into the room to talk to me
and other senior folks.
And again, being the only black person
in the room when they're speaking, they're
looking at everyone else in the eye
and looking past me right when, when,
and in some cases on the subject matter
expert in in the room.
Right.
And what I
what I try to do in those situations
and what I teach folks who I mentor
or who ask me
how to deal with
those situations is don't lose yourself.
You have to be.
You have to be. You continue to perform.
And don't let someone who sees you
a certain way
and has the level of ignorance
bring you down to their level.
You know, stay high with that.
Yeah, No, that's great.
So kind of switching a little bit
to how you got into this career,
how did you get into the career
of digital advertising?
Like what brought you here
by chance?
Quite frankly,
coming out of school in the late nineties
and applying for jobs that, you know,
I went to Keio University,
which is a division three school in Union,
New Jersey, and I had a I graduated
with an undergrad in management science,
in a concentration in marketing.
And quite frankly, like many kids
going through college
and coming out of school,
I didn't have a clear understanding
of what I wanted to do yet.
I knew that I eventually wanted to be
in marketing and advertising.
But as you know, that's that's very broad.
That's very, very broad. Right?
And so I,
I applied for a role as a sales assistant
at a company called Earth Web,
which is a online publisher at the time,
focused on delivering information
and news to IT professionals.
And, you know, long story short,
I got the job as a sales assistant,
and after six months as a sales assistant,
my VP of sales
pulls me in our office and says, Hey,
we're creating this new department
called ad Operation is
would you have any interest in
and wanting to move over into that team
and be an ad trafficker and again,
not knowing much about digital
advertising at the time,
what ad operations meant,
but being very hungry
and knew that I just wanted
to try different things and perform
and move up.
And luckily,
as I got into the ad operations field,
it drew me in and it drew me in
for a number of reasons.
One, I think for anyone
coming in a digital advertising
ad, operations is a good entry point.
And I say that from experience
because it gives you the chance
to learn so much about the business
because you see it all right?
You see the sales side of things,
you see the product side of things,
you see the technology
side of things using ad servers
and data management platforms
and all of those tools.
And so it was a good way for me to
to get that foundation and from there,
you know, I continued along in my career
in ad operations
for the first 14 years of my career.
Most notably, I worked at a local news
publisher called Advance Digital,
moved up to manager director level,
did some pretty cool things
that advance Digital, like implementing
their first programmatic strategy,
implementing their first data and audience
strategy and audience extension.
And then in 2014,
I moved over to a company
called Live in Tent,
where I made a pivot in my career.
I went from ad operations
to account management,
and for me the pivot was important
because I was going to be in a position
now where I could build a team
that was responsible
for servicing ad operations professionals.
So I was moving to sort of the other side
of the industry, if you will,
and built out that account management
team led account management at Live Intent
for about two years.
And then I decided
to make another pivot in my career.
So before you go to that role,
because I have a question in between so
often, I think in order to be successful
in anything
entrepreneurship life, it's
about having perseverance, pushing through
tough times, Also having patience though,
because you can be working hard
and understanding things do take time,
but then it's pivoting to right.
You can you can have enough patience,
you could be persevering,
but then you've got to pivot
as you talk about your next pivot,
all your pivot, how do you know
when is the right time to pivot?
Yeah,
that's a it's a very interesting question.
And I'm not sure you always fully know
it's the right time.
I think it's a combination of knowing
that you want to pivot and being ready
and also being ready
for when that opportunity
actually comes along.
Right.
Because the opportunity
could have come along for me, but maybe
I wasn't thinking about it and wouldn't
have been and wouldn't have been ready.
Right.
So I think it's a combination
of those two things.
And, you know, as we talk a little bit
more about my career, you know,
one of the things that I've I've always
sort of looked at and said is
I never wanted to be put in a box.
I think so many times, you know,
professionals get put in a box, companies
get put in a box, this is an ops person,
this is a salesperson.
It is a marketing person.
And I always wanted to be thought about
as someone who is a leader
and likes to build high performing teams.
And no matter what role you put me in,
that's what I'm going to focus on doing.
And that's what
I've tried to do throughout my career,
whether it be my long career
in ad operations,
whether it be the time where I moved over
to live in tent and built out
and ran the account management team
for my first couple of years.
Or even then when I pivoted
after running, the account management team
pivoted into marketing and led
and built out product marketing team
and then eventually all of marketing
and then eventually became a CMO
at live Intent.
What I've always tried to do
whenever I pivot is like I said,
what do I need to do to build out high
performing teams?
That's one.
To what can I take
from my previous experience
that will help me in the new role, Right?
And then also, I think a sign of any good
leader is understanding
where your strengths are, but
also where your weaknesses are right now.
Being a CMO at live TED after
not really coming up
through sort of the marketing
professional career, right?
I understood that
I needed to surround myself
with a strong product marketing leader,
a strong demand gen leader,
a strong creative person,
so on and so forth.
Right?
So I think that that all of that is
is super important when you pivot.
Yeah. No, no. Great.
So let's, let's talk
a little bit about leadership
then go to the focusing on group
lack a little bit.
So you talked about the importance
some of the important traits of leadership
you got.
You actually discussed just how
I feel.
One of the most important jobs of a leader
is to really create the culture
and create a culture of trust.
What would you say?
Like how do you go about as a leader
and you've led many times.
How do you go about creating
that psychological safety,
that that culture of trust
where people feel empowered
to be themselves and speak up
when they feel like things need to change?
Well, first things first.
I think as a leader, any leader,
you have to do what you say
you're going to do, right?
That's first and foremost
in terms of building trust.
If you say that you're going
to do something, you need to follow up
and you need to make sure that you
you do it.
I also think that as a leader,
you have to make sure that your teams know
that your door is open to them
whenever they need you.
Right.
And for me, I'm not a micromanager
in any sense of the word.
I hire people who I expect to stand
on their own
two feet to be able to to do their job.
And I'm going to give them the room to
to to to do their job.
But at the same time, they understand
and know that my door is open.
I'm here to support them.
I'm here to provide guidance.
I'm here to provide air cover.
At times I'm here to
break down barriers and challenges
that are impacting their ability
to do their job.
So when it comes to sort of building trust
and building a culture
for people to be themselves,
I think all of those things are involved.
I also think it's also important
that as a leader that I myself right,
because they see if they see that
I am being who I am,
then I think that that makes them
feel comfortable as well too.
There's a
there's a level of comfortability
that's provided
for them to to also be themselves.
So what do you think?
Is Utah about being a leader
and understanding
your strengths
and weaknesses to that point?
What do you believe is your biggest lesson
failure as a leader
and how did you grow from that?
Yeah, so again, being a leader
for as many years as I as I've been
managing people, because you can be
a leader without being a manager,
but being as managing people,
you know, I've probably managed
hundreds, if not thousands of people
throughout my career.
You don't always get those.
You don't get every situation
right. Right.
I have made hires that I shouldn't have
made, and I learned from that.
I have
mismanaged people in the past
and I've learned from that.
And so I think that's where
if I think about
is there any one thing that sticks out
in terms of like it can be a moment.
Yeah, this confidentially
and to get into the specific details
but just for the audience to learn like
what was that one moment
that I could feel there's something there
that's there is like, what is that?
Yeah, there definitely was a situation
in the past where, you know,
I had a couple of of direct reports
and one direct report
didn't feel that
maybe I was potentially giving
that person.
I'm trying to be as is. I don't want to.
Yeah, I understand. Yeah.
Maybe I wasn't giving that individual
the time and attention that maybe others
that were reporting to me got right.
And, you know, as I,
as I think back on that situation itself
and I've been I've learned from that.
I've been, you know, better
from that from that situation.
But as I think back on that situation,
I didn't feel that at the time
that that person was correct
in what they were saying.
But I can go back now
and see that, okay, yes,
maybe I was potentially spending time
in other areas
versus spending time with that individual.
Maybe some of that was
I thought that that individual
maybe didn't need as much of my attention
as others.
But at the same time. Right.
I take the ownership for that
because I need to be leading
in terms of the communication
there as well too, if that makes sense.
No, no, it makes total sense.
It's the challenging part is to really
you have to go beyond
sometimes just like the surface
because every different person.
Yes. As they're different,
you know, if it's not a
it's not a direct comparison,
but it's close.
Like just like in a relationship.
People have love languages.
People have ways
that they need communication
and figuring out,
especially if you have high performers,
what that looks like for each individual
person is a lot of work.
But it's very important,
I think, for leaders to understand that
because then people are more aware
right away 1,000%.
And and what I have learned
from that particular situation is
I need to meet people
where they are exactly right.
And at the same time, I struggle with that
a lot, too.
Right? Right.
Meet people where they are
and also realize
that everyone is different as well
too, right?
Communication style or
how much time they may need from
you ideas.
They want all of those things.
And so that that was the biggest lesson
learned from that situation is meet people
where they are.
And I definitely think
that I learned a lot from that.
And I'm a better leader
because of that situation.
Okay, so now you're leading group Black
and the president of advertising.
And, you know,
as I mentioned at the beginning
of the podcast group, Black started
really as an opportunity.
And in response to what happened
with George Floyd and many others,
frankly, and it was a collective moment
that it seemed as if, you know,
more of America was open to investing
and looking at things differently.
And so who Black took that moment
with media and advertising.
So I loved it to as well, based upon
how it started.
How's it going?
Yeah, well, so we are two
and a half years into it
as an organization, right now.
So very much still growing,
very much still learning.
But it's been going.
It's been going great.
You know,
I think we have grown tremendously
over the last couple of years.
I will say, though, that, you know,
not everyone
who made those promises
and commitments has have lived up.
no, Never, never. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that never happens.
Yeah, I want to be
I want to be clear on that.
Right.
I mean, that's
the reality of the situation.
Some are doing better than others,
but at the same time,
we as a company, we continue to grow.
We continue to figure out
what works best for
us in terms of a product offering
and how we execute on those products,
how we help our customers
reach their goals
and how we live up to our mission
and vision,
which is to dramatically transform
the face of media ownership
and investment.
Yeah, So okay, so like you,
I know, grew Black, came out with a report
about black creators to really provide
objective measurables
for things that you know
should be obvious, but it's not.
And so to people,
I guess that the value that black creators
are creating economically, but of course
not getting that same type of return.
Can you talk more about that report
and what you hope
happens as a result of that report?
Yeah, sure.
So first of all, let me say this.
I think as it relates to creators,
in many ways,
creators are like a new version
of publishers these days.
And and what I
and what I mean by that is you can go
on various social platforms
that exist that are out there,
and you can tune in and you can find out
what's going on in the world
without even going to a traditional news
organization or news site.
Right.
You know, there are a number of creators
out there that I follow that cover
news, sports, entertainment, history,
all types of subjects.
Right.
And they're doing it in a very,
very unique way for us.
A group Black again,
is as one of our product offerings,
is is you know we work with a network of
of of creators.
And again, as we're talking
to agencies and brands and understanding
what their goals and KPIs are,
we have the ability to come up
with these bespoke programs
and connect the creators with the brands
to to execute on that.
And as we were getting into that business,
one of the things that we immediately
realized and there are, you know,
hundreds of articles out there about this
is that, you know, black creators,
for whatever reason, don't have access
to the same opportunities as non-black
creators.
And, you know,
there is this and we thought about that
and there's this sort of myth
that exists that maybe black creators
don't drive the same value
as non-black creators.
And so for us, it grew black again,
trying to keep true to our mission and
vision of dramatically transforming the
face of media ownership and investment.
It was important for us to set out
to disprove
that myth, right, and to do it with data.
Right?
And so we entered into a partnership
with Nielsen
where we essentially just ran a study
and a research
with Nielsen, where we compared 300 black
creators to 300 non-black creators
and really looked at the media value
that they drive.
And it's a combination of things
of looking at engagement
increase in followers, right?
Those those sorts of metrics.
And when we dug into the data, right,
not really to our surprise,
but we
we had now we had the data to back it up.
Black creators are driving
just as much, if not higher media value
in a number of different categories,
like gaming and e-sports,
lifestyle, fashion, so on and so forth.
Then non-black creators.
And so for us it was important to put out
a very impactful report
for marketers, for brands, for agencies
to show them
that there's an opportunity here
that you are not taking advantage of.
Right?
And for any marketer and brand,
they're always looking for, okay,
how do I grow my business?
How do I reach my goals, Right?
Where's the next opportunity?
And for us, it was great
to really create this first of a kind
black creator report that showed in detail
how black creators drive media value.
What was success look like for group
Black?
That's a great question.
That that in many ways
that we don't exist in the future, right?
In many ways that that last one answer
yeah yeah that
that we create, you know
a level playing field for media
ownership and investment right?
And that's,
that's what we're trying to do.
So in many ways is for,
for, for us not to exist.
that's great answer.
So, okay,
I got a couple of rapid fire questions.
Will I like to ask some folks on here?
Let's see, what advice
would you give to your younger self?
What would and what would you ignore?
What advice
would you give to my younger self?
Think before you speak.
And and I give that advice to people that
I mentor now
and I follow it myself even today.
I mean, you can get into very heated
conversations, right?
And if you respond emotionally,
if you're respond in the heat
of the moment, you may ultimately
say things that you regret
and you can't take back. Yep.
And even even today,
I make sure I follow that when I'm having
maybe a spirited debate with someone
or I need to write
a very sort of direct
but productive email.
I'll get up from my desk
and I will, you know, go take a walk
or, you know, count to 20 or something
like that.
Right.
You never want to respond
when you're emotional.
State is very high. Yep.
An emotional response to a power situation
will decrease your opportunities
and power exponentially, even though
you'll feel great in that singular moment.
Like I got this out, that person knows
exactly how I feel and that's not.
But your feelings aren't
even a real thing.
They're just how you need to be able
to actually control them.
That's something
I've had to appreciate more.
I'm a very passionate person,
if you can't tell. Yeah, right. But.
But I work towards like, okay, things have
to you have to really think things out
because very rarely is it worth blowing up
a bridge.
Very right is like right.
You can literally be at war with somebody.
Then you got to figure out how to work
with that person later
and you just it's so, it's
so if you can preserve
some status of the relationship,
you should always do it.
I mean, that's absolutely. I agree. Okay.
A theme for your life or let's
say a digital ad for Kerel Cooper's life.
What would that be and why?
Positive impact
every situation that I'm in, every company
that I go to, every team
that I try to build,
I try to leave it better
than when I
when I found it or people that I mentor.
I try to make sure they leave,
you know, our mentorship with me,
providing something
that has had a positive impact on them
and so,
you know, at this point in my career,
anyone that I engage with,
any company that I work with, that that's
what's the most important for me.
How do I leave a positive impact?
All right.
You have a committee of three in business
or life poor, these three people advising
you and why a committee of three?
That's that's a great.
I'm going to go one.
My dad. Okay. Advising me.
He is is been obviously,
you know, in my life
a key figure in making sure that
I was successful.
I stayed out of trouble.
And he always gave me great advice.
I'm going to go with the counselor
who admitted me to Cain University.
His name is Bruce MacIntyre.
He was sort of a big brother to me
while I was on campus for four years.
And those four years
really set the foundation for
my professional career in many ways.
So that's two.
And then you want three, right?
Yeah.
Let's see.
Third person.
I'm trying.
You know, you don't have to do three,
all right?
We do not divorce it. It is not.
Not There's not there. All right,
What's an important truth you have that
very few people agree with you on
How politics
So so and I'll explain to
you guys later,
you know, especially in this day and age.
Right.
You know, this
I mean, it's either you are like
it feels like you're either far
right or far left.
Right.
So I don't consider myself
a member of either of those parties right
when I when I vote.
And by the way, I voted for Democrats
before I voted for Republicans,
before I voted for independents,
before, you know, whether that be
at the national, state or local level,
For me, it is all about do I think
that candidate
is going to leave a positive impact,
Right.
Period.
And so in this day and age, you know this
man, if you got
you got to be on one side or the other.
I'm on neither side.
And I will vote for any candidate
that I feel will leave a positive impact.
Yeah, it's difficult, though. It's
we're tribal beings as human beings.
Right. And so,
you know, you're in digital media,
so you can appreciate this.
How the media works, how it's always work.
But but but particularly
now we have now that we have social media,
it can amplify some of the worst qualities
of human nature.
And and the goal is,
of course, to keep you engaged.
The challenge with that, though,
is that it's about keeping you engaged,
not if it's truthful.
Yeah, not if it's accurate,
not if it's good for you.
And I do not have the answer,
but I do believe fundamentally
there has to be something where we come
to a reckoning about
how we interact with each other online,
because it is literally,
I think, the biggest threat to us
that's going to happen now
because this is war obviously happened.
But even as bad as we know,
there's some wars going on now
relative to human history,
it's very low relative to human history.
That doesn't mean
there's not horrible things going on.
So, yeah, that's very, very clear.
Yeah, I like put everything in perspective
if you know how many people died.
Over 50 million people die in World
War Two, right.
War was that that happened everywhere,
all across the world at any time.
And then the other thing
that would kill us was, of course,
you know, plagues and germs
generally.
Still, out of all the statistics,
more people die from sugar
and suicide
than they do from soldiers collectively.
So I believe our biggest challenge
going forward as a human race
is going to be how we actually interact
with each other, with technology
and artificial intelligence,
because those things are going to
they already have
and they're going to continue to amplify
how we how we connect with each other.
And if there's no thought
to positive impact that you say,
yeah, as into human emotion
and the calming tensions,
then it's going to lead to more divisions
and actually could make us make it.
Yeah. Or things like that.
That is my biggest concern.
And I'm a pro technologist.
I'm also, though I believe in policy
that we need to do that
can both promote innovation,
but then still sets transparency
because I do think we're going
to need to reckon with this.
But until that point, we as individual
humans have to talk to our kids
and everybody else about how to decipher
what is happening in the world
because this, you know, disinformation
and how the media is working
is one of our biggest challenges.
That's yeah, I listen,
I agree with you on the technology piece.
And you know, as a as a parent of
of a teenage daughter right now,
that that's one of my number one
concern to me.
When you and I were in high school,
if we had to deal with a bully
or someone that we didn't like. Right.
We dealt with it for a few hours
and then we went home.
Now it's 24 seven with the device
that's in everyone's hands.
Right.
And, you know, that's just one example
of many because one is another one.
While we're on this point,
the will conclude is that, you know,
I was talking to my friend.
We were done with our kids, too.
And that, you know, if you notice this,
because we grew up around the same age,
like kids don't dance at all much anymore
in terms of groups and things like that.
And you know why that is, I believe, is
because they're worried about social media
like and when people get on there,
they're worried about
people
are going to make fun of them forever.
So, like,
they're they're actually losing out
of the experience
of what it was like to feel the impact.
Yeah, yeah.
Because there is it's always there.
Always on there's always, you know,
there's always a phone or camera
or something to that where, you know,
again, it's going back to that age.
That was that was never
that was never the case.
You don't have to worry about somebody
dunked on you or something like that.
I play basketball right.
Like you don't have to.
The thing wasn't highlighted
over and over again.
I'm here to ask people to see now.
Yeah,
do worry about more like scoring points.
They say I don't want to be able
to suck it up because.
Because back back
when we were younger. Yes.
That that will live in your mind forever.
Now it lives for everyone to see forever.
So those are the challenges.
Again, I don't have the answer,
but I do think we have to.
I think we're just going to we're just now
starting to appreciate
what that has done to the psychological
and the brains
of of of kids, because we were at the time
where it affects us, too.
But we've been without it.
So we also know that world, too.
And now we're at a world
where that's that's literally hardwired
into who they are.
And it's not like you can opt your kids
out of social media.
They won't be able to do anything.
So you have to we got to figure out
how we have that balance.
We have to embrace it.
But there has to be a balance, a balance,
and it has to be in a series of other work
that group like is doing so important.
It has to be
a balance
in how we're telling the message,
because then that can affect
how people view black and brown people,
because there's not a thought about that
and the algorithms and everything else.
So I actually think it's a higher call
than just
when we talk about investment
and ownership.
It's also what are we outputting there
that is actually telling the full story
of the black and brown experience?
Yeah, absolutely, Kerel.
It's been a it's been a pleasure
having you on.
Always good connecting with you.
Great having you.
I appreciate your brother.
All right.
Thanks, Rob. Appreciate it. Right