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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Welcome to The Overflow with We Brandon and are so excited to have the privilege of walking together through some of these truths and some of these conversations. And today, in this episode, we're going to tackle some of the hard places. Some of the hard things in life
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Some of the hard things in ministry, and how have we processed? And we're going to give specific examples of some hard places, but we're not just gonna talk about it. We're gonna share how we navigated it for good, the bad, or the ugly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there's not a person listening to the sound of our voice who has not been hit by some kind of suffering, right? I mean, we all encounter suffering, we all encounter pain. And I think we approach life, so many of us, with a deep inner desire to have a happy life. And some of us, I mean, some of you listening, you may have had such excruciating pain or so many disappointments that you're like, I don't even have that expectation anymore. My bar's so low.
Speaker 2:I just expect things to go bad. Well, that's not good. That's not where we want to live. But the reality is suffering will do that. Suffering will rob us of that happiness, rob us, it can even rob us of our joy if we are not rooted in something bigger.
Speaker 2:And so we're just gonna talk about hard places and how in the world do you go through them. And I will just say upfront right here and right now, I have not arrived in this. I do not feel like, oh, I got it down,
Speaker 1:just It's do what I a lifelong journey.
Speaker 2:Oh man. I think this is a lifelong journey, yeah. And I think that the suffering and the challenges change with your season.
Speaker 1:I agree. You know, there are corners of Christianity that struggle with hard seasons. They struggle to acknowledge the reality of hard seasons. We want to put on, some Christians want to put on their best face. Nothing wrong here, nothing to see here, nothing to see here, and that's something we have not agreed with.
Speaker 1:That's something that we're talking against today. We're actually taking another approach. And there's other places that really, it's all hard. You know? It's just like all suffering.
Speaker 1:And we've already, spoken in another episode about how, hey, you need to have the joy of the Lord. That's your strength. But I'd love for us to navigate the reality of the desert, the reality of the wilderness, the reality of those things.
Speaker 2:Well, and it just made me laugh because I just had a thought about you and me. Even before we get into the nuts and bolts of hard times and even like, what does God have to say about hard times? I think everybody has a predisposition to, in some cases, to walk into hard times. And I think in our marriage, one of the funny things about you and me is that let's say that I catch a cold or let's say I come down with a sickness. We both have had bents that we both worked on, particularly me, I needed more work.
Speaker 2:But we've had bents where you'll say to me the next day, hey, you're doing better. Hey, you're feeling better. And I'm like, no, I feel like trash right now. I absolutely do not feel better. I feel horrible and I have a fever.
Speaker 2:But do you know what
Speaker 1:I'm I do, I do.
Speaker 2:And you're like, yeah, yeah. You're like, you feel better, you look better. It's almost like you're wanting to speak it into existence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for me, there's times where I have a hard time being negative in any way. I'm innately positive. And I was raised in a way where you don't really take naps, and you're gonna be okay, and really, if you're down, you have one foot in the grave. And I love that fierce positivity. I really do, and I still live with it today.
Speaker 1:And so, sometimes I'll try to speak it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the reality is that there's time, there is a place for struggle.
Speaker 2:There is a place. Can I tell a funny story about your mom?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I'm totally interrupting. It's just really funny.
Speaker 1:It's okay, let's go.
Speaker 2:I think your mom would appreciate this. This is that positive spirit, that positive. So your dad, he really did walk through a very hard time of struggling when he had some surgery on his neck and for his spinal cord.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you're down. I mean, there's no messing around.
Speaker 2:Oh, no.
Speaker 1:It's a major surgery. And at 79 years old, 80 years old, something like that.
Speaker 2:Well, and your mom and just their partnership is, I mean, you talk about marriage.
Speaker 1:Unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, beautiful thing to learn from and to observe and just to see, but their love for each other and her, just caring for him when he was in that state. But that positivity of the Thomas family. So I remember walking into the hospital room, and I think it was the day after his surgery. I mean, it was pretty close after his surgery. He is in the hospital bed.
Speaker 2:I mean, you just don't look great and well. Right. You're not ready to jump up and, you know, play golf or do anything.
Speaker 1:It's a tough
Speaker 2:So he is in the hospital bed. He's got all the things hooked up to him and he's coming out of it. He's secure. And we walked in and your mom was fluttering about the hospital room. And I just remember this moment when she goes over to your dad's hospital bed and puts her hands on him and says, Claude, are you happy?
Speaker 2:Are you happy? I was like, no.
Speaker 1:That's my DNA.
Speaker 2:He's not happy.
Speaker 1:That's our DNA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1:not just high drive, you know, alpha dad Claude, it's also my mother. I think
Speaker 2:it came from mom.
Speaker 1:Big time my mother.
Speaker 2:But it's so good. I mean, it's so there's a big space of that where I, on the other hand, have had to watch out wallowing. That I, yeah, I feel sick and I wanna just delve into every piece and element of it and just, if not careful, wallow in my sad.
Speaker 1:You know, and really, what does the Bible say about it? You know, what does the Bible give us to help us with this? And on the positive side, the Bible talks about the book of Psalms. It talks about, the pilgrims will walk through the Valley Of Baca. That's a place of dryness.
Speaker 1:It's a desert. They will make of it a place of springs. They will go from strength to strength. So that's that I can do it, let's go positive attitude. I love that stronger mindset.
Speaker 1:At the same time, there's an entire book of the Bible called Lamentations, and Lamentations is an entire book of mourning and lament. Throughout the Psalms, when you read the book of Psalms, you see people crying out because they're under the thumb of injustice. And true injustice, injustice as God would define it, not as politicians would define it, or people groups. I mean, we're talking God defined justice needs to occur. This is not right, and the people are crying out.
Speaker 1:So the Bible teaches us to unlock our lament. And to unlock our lament begins with expressing ourself. You say, God, here's where I am. God, this is what I'm feeling. Talk to us a little bit about authentically expressing ourself to the Lord when you're struggling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, To the Lord and to each other. I think to the Lord first, you know, so often we will go to our friends before we go to God, or we'll wanna go to that person and it's like, who do I wanna call rather than going to God. And it's so important that as we struggle through our hard places, that our first place that we run is the Lord, that we go to him. And, you know, which sometimes I think we overcomplicate talking to God and connecting with the Lord, and we just over spiritualize it. He's like, y'all are being more spiritual than I am.
Speaker 2:Just tell him. Talk to him. I mean, Philippians tells us clearly when we're anxious about something, usually we're afraid of something bad happening to be anxious for nothing. But instead, so fear is not of God and lingering and staying in fear is not of God. Like we're gonna feel fear.
Speaker 2:But if we stay there and it becomes anxiety, he's saying be anxious, that's when you're held by that fear. Be anxious for nothing, but instead bring your prayers to God. Make your request known to God with thanksgiving, which means as you tell him about your needs, don't forget how he's come through in the past. Thank him for the blessings in your life. And then he gives us a promise that there will be a peace that passes understanding that will guard your heart and guard your mind.
Speaker 2:I know that when it comes to hard places or even the fear of the hard place, so often our minds feel under assault by anxiety. It's interesting that the end of that passage right there says, guard your hearts and mind. What's it guarding from? I don't think it's the beginning of that whole sentence. Anxiousness, anxiety, the fear of what might be and the fear of the worst.
Speaker 2:And he's saying that it'll guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. So taking our hard places to God is so important. And you said, you know, the whole expressing yourself. I a gift in our marriage, and I think a gift that we are still striving to grow in, both of us, is the ministry of presence. Yes.
Speaker 2:Engaging, like in the hard places, if you're going through it as a spouse, you know, together with your husband, your wife, or your family, or maybe just as a close friend, your ministry of presence is huge. And I wanna I'd love to unpack that together because what does that mean, ministry of presence? I mean, couple things that strike me is I don't even have to have all the answers in this moment. Just me being here with you is a ministering to your hard place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, in a growing church, you and I cannot be there all the time for everybody.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 1:And it's actually
Speaker 2:Wish we could.
Speaker 1:Sure. And one of the authentic responses to that is we have raised up pastors.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:Keystone is supported not just by the ministry of us, but the ministry of the pastors. Well, one of the things that we've equipped our pastors with is the ministry of presence, and that is, I have learned even recently, you and I were about to go out of town. I mean, were we catching a flight that day or was it the next day? I don't know. This was recently.
Speaker 2:I don't know what shout about.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, you will soon enough. We caught wind that a treasured, dear, dear person in our church, a man who'd been with us from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Oh, we were out of the country.
Speaker 1:We were headed out of the country, and he had been struggling with an illness for a bit.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I think we were leaving the next morning, but it was like we were unpacking crazy. And it was Sunday after church and God really put it on our heart, let's go see him.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right. We, yeah, we didn't know he was about to pass.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, our word was, hey, he's home, and just, but it wasn't he's about to pass. It was just, God told us to go. Yeah. And so when we went, we just were there. And, we just told stories and reflected on Keystone and just the ministry that we'd enjoyed together, and he talked to us about things that he appreciated, gave us some prophetic words, honestly, ministered He to us
Speaker 2:did, he did.
Speaker 1:Through that. And we left, and we both said, Man, he's gonna be around for a while. He's kicking. I mean, he's doing great. And we left the next morning to go out of the country and found out the next day that he had passed.
Speaker 1:And I'm just so grateful for that ministry of presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are those moments when you think, oh, this doesn't really, I don't know that this is really helping. Does this even matter? Like, am I helping this person if it's someone else struggling? But the truth is, is I think God works through us with each other in such a powerful way that we just draw close. And so being present is one.
Speaker 2:And I think, you know, you talk about needing to express yourself in the hard place. Well, you're someone supporting that person, engage them, eye contact, put your phones away, lean in. And I think that's, you know, I'm kind of veering off into just how do you love someone going through the hard place, but I think those are some of the ways that we can love one another.
Speaker 1:And when someone is going through a hard place, the burden is not on them to reach out.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The burden is for you to reach out.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:For you to reach out for the person hurting. Now, the person hurting needs to wave the flag I'm hurting.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because sometimes we just don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We have no idea. I was grateful someone had waved the flag for us, for our friend, our dear, Keystone person, and we responded to that flag.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But it is the burden of the person to minister to the hurting, not the hurting to beg people to be ministering to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as a friend or as a family member, it's on us to find out how does this person want to be ministered to to a degree. For example, I'm thinking of two dear people in my life, and this is so funny because it's polar opposite. One, I remember one of my friends, you know, had a surgery and was kinda down and out, and there was a whole schedule with some of her very closest friends where we would go and just sit with her that day and just do laundry or bring food or, you know, was so fun and we love her. And she welcomed that, you know, and I'm probably more like that. You know, she welcomed that.
Speaker 2:I have another very dear friend that she don't want you anywhere near her. She does not want you to step into the room. And we laugh about it because it's just different personalities and different ways that we receive love. And so again, I think it is be the person who initiates, like you said, don't wait on them to initiate, but also don't push your own quote love language. Don't push the way that you would want to be loved or ministered to on them.
Speaker 2:Have your ear to the ground, be sensitive, listen, and then love them well. And I thought of another Keystone family where
Speaker 1:Well, let me interrupt that one. So like the good example for that thought is some people, you want your room to be packed.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:You're in the hospital, you want your room to be full.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Other people, you're like, what are you doing? Why are you all here? Can't you see?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and you would rather a slow drip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who, No,
Speaker 1:I'm saying
Speaker 2:Oh, theoretically.
Speaker 1:That person who I'm talking about, one person says, Please pack my room out. Yes, have a party in here. This makes me feel so. Other people, or even families, are like, No, just, Hey, reach out ahead of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:Let's have a slow drip, let's be cautious, let's be careful. And you gotta love them the way they'd wanna be loved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And it made me think what was saying about another Keystone family is one of our dear women lost her husband And it was just hard and tragic and a hard, hard place. But one of the things I remember hearing, and we ministered, we got to spend some time with her, but I remembered hearing just women and people in the church who would just come in her door, lay down things on her kitchen cabinet, and walk out.
Speaker 2:Like no pressure. You don't need to try to put on a face for me. You don't need to in any way be hospitable or, you know, entertain me. Like, I am delivering things that I know you're gonna need over the next few days and weeks, and then I'm out. It's just, there's so many ways to love
Speaker 1:Do you remember the couple that we went to go see this past year who had just lost their son? And we walked in, this just shows you the diversity of the way people grieve. Walked in and we were, you remember this? Walked in and we were like, man, they probably don't want us here. I mean, they've been through it.
Speaker 2:I just pray
Speaker 1:over I mean, I just, hey, let's just pray. Let's love on them, and hey, let's give them their space. They made a meal for us. Oh yeah. I mean, I was like feeling bad, but then it dawned on me, maybe you said something to me, but it dawned on me this was the way they were grieving.
Speaker 1:They wanted to be Yeah. And I felt like I should be cooking for them.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And they were blessing us and it's just, people so are just reading,
Speaker 2:reading the room and honestly asking God to give discernment. So those are just some examples of ways we can love others in the heart place, but when we're in the heart place.
Speaker 1:I've got some ground rules.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I've got some ground rules. I've written these down years ago, and we've lived by these at Keystone. I've taught this many times. Ground rules for lament. Number one, we live in a broken world.
Speaker 1:I'm just gonna go through these. Number one, we live in a broken world. Number two, our existence is a gift from God. We're owed nothing. We're in a broken world.
Speaker 1:I mean, the fact that we live, the fact that humanity left the garden intact and alive, broken but alive, is a gift from God.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:I am not the center of the universe.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am not the center of the universe. We are unable and ill equipped to handle all of God's answers, okay? God is more troubled by this brokenness than you are. And then resist the urge to judge God. I think those ground rules for lament really, really do help.
Speaker 1:Once you've expressed yourself and you have those ground rules intact, you say, God, I'm struggling. God, I'm suffering. Be honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then God, change this. You're not wrong to pray, God, would you change this? God, would you turn it around? That's the cry of the Bible. God, mean, he's very honest about people that are oppressing them, and in those days, I mean, we're talking about taking their crops killing people.
Speaker 1:I mean, was brutal, Basically saying, God, would you vanquish my oppressors? God, would you deal with my enemies? God, would you change this? That's the second big cry. How do we do that accurately?
Speaker 1:God, change this. I know what you feel about this, especially when it comes to the power of prayer, but God, would you change this?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The power of that.
Speaker 2:Are a church and a house that believes in miracles.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:We believe that God is a God who heals. We do not believe that that was only for a certain time and period in history. We believe Jesus, when he looked at his disciples and the people that would come after him and said, you have faith in me, you're gonna do even greater works than I did. Like, we believe that God still heals. And so because of that, God says, you have not because you ask not.
Speaker 2:And so we wanna ask in faith and our faith, and this is my prayer, God, let my faith be so strong that whatever your answer is, I am secure in you. And that I may lament or may be sad if the answer is a hard answer, but I'm so I I pray I'm so rooted in faith that whatever your answer is, God, that I'm gonna be okay because I'm secure in So Jesus, my when it comes to that space, I think faith is a big part as you walk through the hard places. Believe big. Believe big. Even wherever you are right now, whatever hard place you're in in your personal life right now, believe big.
Speaker 2:What could God do? What would God do? What would it look like in my current hard place for my father God heaven to touch my earth that I'm walking in right now? And believe for that, and pray for that, and trust the Lord, whatever his response might be.
Speaker 1:You know, when we pray, it is not just for ourselves. Like some people say, Hey, when you pray, it's for you. Well, prayer changes things. When you read the Bible, prayer changes And so call out to God, God, change this. And then a true lament then reaffirms the relationship.
Speaker 1:Because sometimes when we call out to God, change this, there can be a little discontent if it doesn't happen in our timing. There can be discontent or struggle or questioning or struggle when we don't see the timing or the way that we wanted that prayer to Yeah, be it
Speaker 2:be a story.
Speaker 1:Or it could be struggle when God says no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yes. Oh boy, so this immediately brought a story to mind. It was a man that I worked for years ago and loved him. You know, he was much older than me, my boss, and he was having to work with me on multiple projects. And I remember at one point he opened up and shared he'd actually been on a path toward ministry at one point.
Speaker 2:And he was, but now we were in corporate setting. And I remember him sharing that when he was a ministry, in ministry, that he was at a church and that one of the children, maybe a young teen or, you know, I don't know, older child had experienced an injury. And he maybe, I don't remember if it was a car, something happened and this child was injured and everyone began praying. And my boss at the time led the whole church to pray for the miraculous, pray for this boy's healing. And the little boy died.
Speaker 2:He passed away. And in that moment, something shut off in my boss's life. He left the ministry. He became convinced exactly what you just said a minute ago. He became convinced that prayer's just for us.
Speaker 2:It doesn't change anything with God. It doesn't change the heart or the direction. God's already sovereign. He's gonna do what he's gonna do. It's for us.
Speaker 2:And how that translated decades later when I now meet this man and get to know his family is that his whole family was being impacted by that decision years and years ago to abandon prayer and abandon, to some degree, faith. He still had his faith in Jesus, but what was so sad is his own son did not have faith in Jesus. He had not modeled a living, breathing, acting, active, passionate faith in any way that made his son curious to know who Jesus even was. And so while that boy had been lost in those earlier years, in that tragedy, when this person who I would consider a friend, my boss, essentially rejected the intimacy of prayer and belief and faith in that way, now he was in jeopardy of losing his own son.
Speaker 1:Ugh, it's just tragic. So that's the power of reaffirming the relationship. God changed this, so it, you know, you say, God, boldly change this. And then reaffirming the relationship, biblically, what it sounds like is, You are in control.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You alone are God. You know what you're doing. I rest in you, Jesus' words, Not my will, but yours be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's so important to add that in because it puts it back in his hands. Yeah. If you answer this in a way I don't expect, or in a timing that I wouldn't prefer, or the answer isn't what I want, I'm still with you. Reaffirm the relationship and then rest in the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the bigger picture is that there's coming a day. This evil and suffering and struggle in this world is really cosmically a blink of the eye. It's really a brief period of time when you measure it against eternity. And I like to say that the ninety years, let's give you a good long life, the ninety years that you live on this earth will, from a thousand years into your eternity. Okay?
Speaker 1:So we're talking real eternal life when Jesus comes back, real bodily existence, a new heaven, a heaven crashing into earth, new earth, redeemed everything right, a thousand years into your eternal life, you will tangibly look at your ninety years of chronic pain, your ninety years of relational brokenness, your ninety years of whatever it is that's Yeah, your
Speaker 2:hard places.
Speaker 1:Hard places, poverty, whatever. And you'll say, To be with you, Jesus, I would do it all again. And I know that seems impossible when we're in it. Yeah. But we gotta rest in the bigger picture.
Speaker 1:Here's a scripture. In Revelation six:nine, When the lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God. And for being faithful in their testimony. They shouted to the Lord and said, O sovereign Lord, holy and true, long? Isn't this honest?
Speaker 1:How long? These are those that had been martyred. They had their own story. They went through horrible. They had suffered.
Speaker 1:I mean, horrible things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done for us? And then a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters, their fellow servants of Jesus, who were to be martyred, had joined them. So here we see this picture of eternity that I believe is a real picture. The martyrs are there right in the presence of God, right where the angels are singing. And it was so honest, they lamented to God.
Speaker 1:Now this is in the now. So like it's before he made all things do. They're lamenting to God, God, how long until justice? How long until sin is broken? He says a little longer.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:I just find that to be a rest, you know?
Speaker 2:Well, and as you were reading that, I think it's such a picture of how we need to understand that God is the same God today that he was in that passage. He's the same God yesterday, today, and forever. And when you're going through the hard place, we're like, I I have. God, how long am I gonna feel the way I feel? How long will I be sick?
Speaker 2:Or how long will this relational hard, hard place be with whoever and whatever we've gone through, which we may talk about some of our things? You know, how long, God? How long? And how sweet that the Lord did not discipline them in those moment in that moment. He didn't correct them.
Speaker 2:He did not chastise them. And there's times when he will because he disciplines those he loves. But in that passage, what'd he do? He handed him a robe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Come on.
Speaker 2:He cared for them. And he spoke hope into them.
Speaker 1:Honored them.
Speaker 2:Honored them. And spoke hope and spoke future. Like, I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord. A plan to prosper you, not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future. And he did.
Speaker 2:He gave them hope and he gave them future. And I think that in our hard places, we've gotta cling to the scriptures that are still God's voice right now and right here. And we've gotta remember that that same God who loved on them loves on us.
Speaker 1:So good. As we think of these things, biblical, this is how we lament. Yeah. We've had some moments. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. You know, there's two big categories would be church, three, church, family, health. And friends. And friends, yeah. So lots of categories.
Speaker 1:Lots of categories. Okay. Like, let's talk about friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So there've been, and this kinda combines with church a little bit, there've been friends that when it was hard and when the chips were down, people that we were running with just
Speaker 2:Failed.
Speaker 1:Evaporated.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And we're like, man, these are a ride or die.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. Those are painful places and that's happened more than once in our story in different settings. I can think, you know, years ago, a specific friend that I began to see circumstances that were pulling us apart, but still hopeful that we loved each other deeply. And I remember driving in my car and I was by myself and I can put myself on that road.
Speaker 2:And I remember being in the car and I was hitting my steering wheel saying, God, not her. God, not Hirsch. That's a friendship that I can't lose. And I, you know, I felt in my spirit, at least what I heard back in my mind was, you know, release that to me. Like he let go of that, that I have to let that go to give it to him.
Speaker 2:And that's not a cop out when you're in a hard place to say, oh, I'm letting you go. I'm just letting you go. Because I didn't
Speaker 1:just You fought for peace.
Speaker 2:I fought for peace. Yeah. We had have peace and had peace
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:At that time. But but it was an internal thing of, okay, God, I'm still I still desire this friendship, but if you if you take it from me, I'm not gonna grip it.
Speaker 1:The relationship changed.
Speaker 2:And the relationship did change and the circumstances around it were really unfortunate. But that there's those moments when you go through that hard place and when you're in it, particularly relationships, the closer they are to you, the more painful it is.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And that's the risk of love. And this is one thing I would say when it comes to relational hard places. We don't wanna fall into the trap of self protection or hardening.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I got hurt then, I'm not getting hurt like that again.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we begin to come up with, even subconsciously, all these ways, these boundaries, if you will, and I'm not talking about healthy boundaries, I'm talking about self made protection where I'm trying to control my pain level, not trusting the Lord. Where I begin to put distance with people in such a way that will protect me from that ever happening again. And that's a very, very broken way to respond. It's a trap of the enemy to keep us from rich relationship. And we just have to be very careful about that.
Speaker 2:But relational hard times are very real and they're very, very painful.
Speaker 1:We're gonna have an entire episode on conflict resolution. Oh yeah. And honestly, probably a bunch. Yeah, for because we have a lot to say about conflict resolution. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we fought hard for conflict resolution in our church at Keystone, and we fight hard for it in our family, and it's just an, it's a part of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we'll save that for another time, but you bring up a great point, those friendships. Stay on that for just a second. The first thing is that in different seasons of your life, friendships can change. Friendships can change, and that's okay. It's okay, but it needs to be done the right way.
Speaker 1:It needs to be done God's way. It needs to be done in such a way that you're right before the Lord, and I think what's been hurtful for us at times is people that just turn on a dime. Like you're like really close and then they're Oh yeah. We've even, and this is also a church story, we've had those that have said, I mean, we've hung out with them or whatever, and, hey, we're lifers. We're forever.
Speaker 1:We're forever. And like two months later, they're
Speaker 2:gone. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know? No word, no call, no nothing, and we've hung out and, you know, it's just, it's kinda weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. There's just, there can be hard places in relationships. There just can. And, you know, when it comes to if you bring up church and just kind of a sidebar, but when you talk about people coming and going and leaving the church, I will say this, and maybe it's a grace God's given me, but it's you and me both.
Speaker 2:You know, just this is a little different off topic, but I think it can be a place of pain for many pastors and that many when people leave your church, you take it really, really personal. And what I would say is as I reflect back, I honestly don't take it personal until a person's really mean. They're mean and hateful and wanna light the place on fire on their way out, that's when I struggle with the personal. Other than that, even people that I loved and even called friend, I can think of some people that, you know, that I'm like, man, I wish you weren't leaving. But because of the way they left and peace and the kindness
Speaker 1:We're good.
Speaker 2:You were so good. I mean, the door is wide open and some of those friends have come back, but there genuinely was not pain attached to More when they of just, man, I'll miss seeing you and I thought I'd trust God's direction in your life.
Speaker 1:I remember one guy, dear, dear, dear to us, and he was just really just looking for something different theologically even at the time. And God was taking him and his family through something, and there was another church that was really ministering to them, and he was like, Man, we're gonna go over here. And it was a hard conversation for him to have, but he did it just with such humility. And I said, Buddy, I said, Go do this, and we'll leave the light on for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, just know you have a place here, but I support you. You're good, man, go. They have since come back. Yeah. And because we left the light on, they have a home.
Speaker 2:And because they were so kind and so loving and just following where God was leading them next, it paved that road for peace. And so that's examples of not hard, honestly, not hard Yeah, it's hard. But I think for some people, I think for some people though.
Speaker 1:Like I know what you're saying. Some people, any change in the relate, any, it's such betrayal. They would call that betrayal.
Speaker 2:Which we don't.
Speaker 1:We do not.
Speaker 2:We truly to our core do
Speaker 1:No, we truly in our
Speaker 2:core We believe that if someone leaves to go to another church and it's not like just moving away, but it's like they leave to go to another church, if God is directing your steps and it's your next assignment, we're gonna miss you, but we actually celebrate God's movement in your life. It's when it's destructive. A hard place is when it's destructive because we've also had people.
Speaker 1:Well, and they try to take people with them. They try to, oh, you gotta come to my church now. And that's so divisive.
Speaker 2:Start campaigning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, start campaigning, go negative. Yeah. You know, it's just, that's all the broken stuff. You know, we will have a time to talk about church hurt. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a big topic, bigger than now, that we could cover here. But people say, Well, you know, I have such church hurt. Girl, let me help you, man. I'm a preacher's kid. And those that are close to us know some of the stuff we've been through.
Speaker 1:And if you've been in ministry for very long, you've had plenty of opportunities for the church to hurt you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I've had plenty of opportunities for the church to hurt.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Me, us, I have seen the church, people in the church. That's I mean, be careful. That's the key. I have seen people in the church try to, I've seen them boldface lie. I mean, brutal.
Speaker 1:We're talking lie. We have seen people go after people sinfully. It gets pretty ugly, but those are people in the church. And I would just say, man, love the bride. We'll talk about that some other time, but handle that with the Lord.
Speaker 1:But another big category for you especially is health. Yeah. We've had some health journeys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's not really your struggle.
Speaker 1:Not as much.
Speaker 2:More like finances and making sure we're, you know, everything's in a great spot. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Call these things triggers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, triggers.
Speaker 1:So my triggers will be financial and the weight of that. Yep. Your triggers are health.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's so true. And you've walked through some health hardships for sure together. Goodness, where do I begin with which?
Speaker 1:Well, would say first of all, I mean, our daughter Elle, when she was a little girl,
Speaker 2:you know,
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:So yeah, little Elle, she was six months old, our first born.
Speaker 1:I thought she was older than
Speaker 2:that. Well, there's two parts to that I'm home alone and I've been breastfeeding her up to this point and she had reflux according to the doctor. Well, I gave her her very first, you weren't home, her very first bottle of formula. And because that's what you do. I mean, if you wanna start, you know, using formula.
Speaker 2:I just, what I You did
Speaker 1:at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at that time. And so I didn't know. So I gave her her first bottle of formula. And what happened next was horrible. My little baby, my little six month old started turning bright red, started sneezing, started crying, irritability, something wrong.
Speaker 2:Like, she's not okay. And I remember calling the doctor, like, what's going on? And they're like and they I I don't really remember what they said because everything's kept getting worse. And finally, she went from beet red, her whole little body, to completely white as if the blood had drained out of her body and her little eyes started going behind rolling behind her head. And I was in a pure panic.
Speaker 2:I threw her into the car. There was an urgent care, cook's urgent care down the street. I am racing as fast as I can get there. And what had happened is she was having an anaphylactic reaction to milk, to dairy. You know, unbeknownst to us, it wasn't that she had reflux, she had a dairy allergy and her mom loved to drink milkshakes.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's just where we were, still ice cream. Still struggling. Working on it.
Speaker 1:Still working
Speaker 2:Thank on you, I'm doing much better, but that's a whole nother podcast. Anyway, not that you can't have ice cream, but there's limits people. I am on a journey. So, but in that moment, I thought to myself, am I losing my daughter? I remember screaming, like hollering at her, Ellie, Ellie, stay with me, because she's in her car seat and she's passed out.
Speaker 2:And so I get to that doctor's office and I'm racing my baby in. And that began a journey with Ellie of health challenges as we began to be introduced to the world of food allergies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she had major food allergies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and at two and a half, an even scarier moment happened when we discovered she had her tree nut allergy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she took a little bite of a
Speaker 2:Tiny cashew.
Speaker 1:Cashew and she just, her body went into chaos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, went into utter chaos. You again, were you at work?
Speaker 1:I was at church and there was a Sunday night church thing and you were having a dinner with your family. Yeah. And I was at church and you took her to the ER, I met you there.
Speaker 2:By the time I got her there, her body was twice its size. She did not look human.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember by the time I got there, it would move all over her body. It would just, you remember that? It would Oh just move all over, all the hives and stuff would just
Speaker 2:had a secondary reaction as they all just swarmed her. The second they saw her, they rushed her back to the ER and
Speaker 1:Eventually took her to Cook's downtown, which is a major pediatric hospital for those outsiders.
Speaker 2:Came back. Was wild. It was a rare reaction because she reacted and then they treated and then it came back, which And was they, yeah, put us in an ambulance, headed us towards Cook's. Yeah. But it was a life changing moment.
Speaker 2:And I can honestly say in those early days of my life, everybody has different struggles and brokenness. I've not had the propensity of depression. Never been my struggle, true depression. Like get True sad for real. Yeah, I'll get sad and I get moody.
Speaker 1:You can get the blues.
Speaker 2:I get the blues. But true depression, not my thing. I would say that that was the first time I ever tasted, and I don't think I've tasted it since, where for about a month I was caught in deep, deep sadness because the ER doctor said, well, after she was finally better and we're downtown cooks, well, she's stabilized, she's great, she'll be great, just keep her away from nuts.
Speaker 1:Come on, man.
Speaker 2:And I thought, I'm sorry, I think my whole life just changed. I don't think it's as simple as what you're Just
Speaker 1:keep her away from that.
Speaker 2:And I couldn't have been more correct. Yeah. It permeated so many, every birthday party, every holiday,
Speaker 1:Then when every she went to school.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:How does she eat in the cafeteria?
Speaker 2:Yes. Preschool, how do we do snack time?
Speaker 1:And it's so extreme.
Speaker 2:It was cross contamination. Smallest, I mean, was kissed on the cheek one time by someone else who had been eating a cookie with nuts in it.
Speaker 1:It was a cousin.
Speaker 2:And it got in her eye and started an anaphylactic reaction. So that's a longer story for maybe another time, but it's examples of hard places where it's like, God, this isn't being taken away. How do I walk through it? And that actually should probably be a part two at some point because there's so much richness that Yeah, happened in her
Speaker 1:it's so good.
Speaker 2:Even the miracle of it.
Speaker 1:And your mother had aortic dissection, which is a traumatic, we won't go into all the details of what that means, but people don't live through that
Speaker 2:No, usually.
Speaker 1:It's usually a death sentence and she had it while driving.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they care flighted her to this major hospital in Downtown Dallas
Speaker 2:and Almost we all missed it. Almost. Misdiagnosed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they almost misdiagnosed it. Now how many years later, do you know, can you count it?
Speaker 2:Ten years.
Speaker 1:Ten years.
Speaker 2:I think it's rad She's
Speaker 1:been with us and It's
Speaker 2:a miracle.
Speaker 1:So all these hard times, these significant things. Yeah. You've mentioned before the pressure of starting a new church and the struggle of finances personally, even with the church when you're getting it off the ground and you're making huge leaps and you're risking it all.
Speaker 2:Times you would say that you would come home and feel like you just wanted to be sick, just
Speaker 1:Yeah, just, okay, so that's a reality. How do you do it? You have got to have a different kind of attitude. You have got to have a redeemed mind. Having the mind of Christ, you have got to spend time in the presence of God.
Speaker 1:You have got to be shaped by the word of God, and in doing so, you unlock your lament. Yeah. And the lament is honest. The lament is vulnerable. The lament is life changing, like God changed this, but the lament is full of faith, God, I trust you.
Speaker 1:It's relational. Yeah. And so I think what I would ask is, hey, we all have these hard times, and maybe you're going through one right now. I'd ask you to unlock your lament. I'd ask you to go back and write down those ground rules for lament.
Speaker 1:I'd ask you to consider honestly expressing yourself. I'd ask you to consider restating the relationship, ask God to change it,
Speaker 2:and
Speaker 1:just do that every single day and just see how God powers you through the journey of the struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think as we just close it out, right, what just came to my mind that I would encourage you is that when you're in the hard place, all of those things that you just said, and when you're in connection with Jesus and you're pursuing his presence, because that part is everything. If you don't do that, you don't have any power, no ability to walk to the hard place well. But when you do that, ask the Lord for discernment. God, what are you calling me to do in this season? Because I had responsibility with Ellie.
Speaker 2:I had responsibility with my mom in her care right after the surgery in those early days where it was so vulnerable. Like there were things I was tasked to do with my daughter throughout her childhood. So I had responsibility. So Lord, show me where my assignment is, what happened to walk through the hardship. But then Lord, show me, help me clearly see the things that are out of my control.
Speaker 2:I have no have no role or responsibility. And in both, I have to trust fall into Jesus. And and it's easy to wanna try to control it or make God who we want him to be rather than say, Lord, particularly, I need your power to help me with the assignment that I have. Like, give me the power to do what you've called me to do. But, Lord, give me the faith to trust fall in your arms completely in the spaces that I have no control over, and it's not my assignment.
Speaker 2:It's all you, God. And to trust fall into him in the hard place
Speaker 1:is And in doing so, may you experience, even when it's hard, the joy of the Lord, which is your strength. Yes. Thanks for joining us again to another episode of The Overflow with Brandon and Susan. We look forward to seeing you next time. Make sure you like, subscribe, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1:Send it forward. Do all those things. God bless you. We love you.