Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This week, your hosts Ian, Zoe, and Krysia answer questions sent in by listeners. We cover a range of topics from study beverages to tips for church leaders. If you have any follow up questions, we’d love to hear from you!
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
Website: www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/centre-for-the-study-of-autism-and-christian-community-1725.php
Tips for Churches Video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPQmiFWmSAA&list=PLmKrFyUVrIH74-RZvegXzmwxufEHJfQGo&index=10
Ann Memmott Tips for Churches: www.churchesforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/What-is-Autism-for-Churches-for-All-by-Ann-Memmott.pdf
CAT Research Projects: www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/research-projects-1941.php
Transcript Available Here: feeds.transistor.fm/autism-and-theology-podcast
Creators & Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Zoe: Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast. Brought to you by the Centre for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.
Hello and welcome to our November Cat Chat. Cat Chat is the space where we have more relaxed conversations about autism and Theology. And we share news with you, answer listener questions, and yeah, just have informal chats about autism and theology. This episode, we're going to be answering some listener questions.
We've had so many great and exciting questions that we really are looking forward to answering. Um, if you have more questions after the episode, please feel free to get in touch. Um, but yeah, we hope that you enjoy this chatting about our thoughts on what you've asked us.
Ian: And the first question we got is, how are your cats?
Uh, and my two are very good, although increasingly in disbelief that the dog is still with us. She's been with us a year and they are still, uh, thoroughly unimpressed that they have to share their home with Liota.
Krysia: Fudge is just still perpetually unimpressed at humanity. Um, if being autistic was a cat, that would be Fudge.
My mum apparently picked her up the other day and she was not happy and sat with her back to her body afterwards.
Zoe: Iconic. Um, well, I don't have a cat, but my dog, he's doing well. He's, yeah, loving life would be a strong way to put it, but you know, he's, he's going along fine. Um, he enjoyed walking today, which is a rare event.
But yeah, there we go. So he is doing well. Um, our next question is, what is your preferred study beverage?
Krysia: I think I'd have to say peach iced tea. I used to live in Berlin and I really got into drinking iced tea.
Ian: . For me it's almost always coffee, although occasionally I will in the afternoon have a glass of green tea instead.
Zoe: So, this is not going to be a popular opinion, but water these days. So I would have said coffee before, but I'm actually finding that water gives me more energy than coffee. Um. But, you know what, in this weather I also love a wee hot chocolate.
Krysia: I do have to agree with you there. So our next question was, if you had unlimited funding, what would you research?
Ian: For me, this is an easy question because it's what I'm researching right now, um, you know, to me, the, the, the place I wanted to start out with is conceptions of the image of God, the Imago Dei, and how we define that in light of autism, um, but beyond that, if, if money truly were no object, there are just so many different topics out there that haven't yet established a baseline for our understanding of what autism is.
That I would just love to go absolutely buckwild and study like all of those, um, you know, one after another.
Zoe: Yeah. I'm going to go for like a completely different one outside neurodiversity theology. Something I've always wanted to study is, um, my grandmother was brought up in a home in India that was for children who had Scottish fathers and Indian mothers, mostly. And I just find it fascinating, and I think there's so much that could be said from a theological perspective on that. And yeah, that would be like, My dream would be to look into that at some point. Um, if I had unlimited funding. I also do love my own research though So I would never like to walk away from that, but there is a dream
Krysia: I think what I would almost do is build on my PhD research because I've been quite limited by the amount of money I've had because I'm quite pro ensuring that people who I talk to and spend time with fairly get reimbursed.
And I've also, because I did most of my data collection during the pandemic, I couldn't include people who communicate not using Teams and not using Zoom, because I had to do a lot of verbal interviews. So it would be fantastic to do something with more creative methods, so that I'm not relying so much on people having to talk.
And I think also I'd love to speak to more. faith and church leaders more generally. I spoke to some as part of my master's research that I did on attitudes towards autism in churches, but in my PhD I've more focused on autistic people's experiences, which I think is absolutely necessary. But given the fact that inclusion is so kind of, it takes two to tango, as I say to my students, actually, I'd love to hear more from other congregants and other faith leaders as well.
Ian: The next question though is, uh, What is your favourite book, excluding Grant McCaskill's, on autism, theology, and or the church?
Krysia: I think for me, I would have to say one that's not specifically autism specific, but it's fantastic around experiences of disabled people within church. So that would be the book by Dr. Naomi Lawson Jacobs and Emily Richardson, Disability disability justice in the churches because it's written just so accessibly, yet it's also so powerful and so strong. So it has some of the tenets of the more academic stuff, but I don't have to put my academic hat on to read it. It's just that accessible and that packs a punch that well.
Zoe: Yeah, mine would be Neuroqueer Heresies by Nick Walker. Um, again, it's a very accessible read. Um, yeah, I just found it very, it kind of transformed a lot of my thinking on neurodivergence. And yeah, I really enjoyed reading it.
Ian: That's, uh, that's one I need to read. I think my, my favorite thus far, favorites, um, and, and if you're talking about autism and theology specifically, you're really only talking about a handful of books, unfortunately, but, um, two that I really, really loved were, um, Peculiar Discipleship by Claire Williams, because it's just really ambitious in all the right ways, um, and Eileidh Campbell's Motherhood and Autism, because it's a, it's a very different perspective from my own, and so, Um, I, I got a lot from it, from, from hearing from someone else's very different experience.
Zoe: Um, our next questions are a little bit more meaty. Um, the first one is what are the top five things you wish priests, pastors, and practitioners knew about autism in children and adults?
Ian: It's a really, really good question. And I'm I'm not even 100 percent sure I could come up with five right offhand, but I could come up with maybe three, which are, um, particularly when it comes to autistic kids, always, always, always know that behavior isn't just a tantrum. It's, it's communication, right? And so not assuming that it That a child acting in a way that you don't expect means that they're being insubordinate or disrespectful. Um, I'd also say just remember that autistic people are individuals, so there isn't any one size fits all solution, which is sometimes, in some ways, the most difficult thing because that's what pastors are always looking for.
Um, as generalists, they want, like, one thing that they can do that'll fix this issue so they don't have to worry about it anymore. Um, but one solution that I think pays dividends among autistic people, and not only that, but for ministry in general, is ask, don't assume. Just always be very clear and very upfront in your communication, because the odds are autistics will appreciate that and will understand you better, and it's not going to run you afoul of neurotypicals either.
They might find it unexpected, but you're not going to burn any bridges. Generally speaking by doing that
Krysia: I guess I have like Ian haven't actually got five things But when I was listening to Ian's answers just now it reminded me of a short how to article I wrote for the wrote for the organizing for of autism research and One of the things that I said was about different people in church being aware that being autistic isn't necessarily something that's wrong with you.
So there's theories obviously as academics will know about theories of autism like the Damion Milton's double empathy problem, which is a mismatch between um, an autistic person or an autistic person in their understanding of the world and how they process it, but also monotropism, which is where you have a smaller attention funnel, um, of things that you can focus on. And I guess, although it may seem more Complicated, this is a suggestion, actually just framing autistic people as not broken neurotypicals and actually we're wonderfully made as we are, actually is the essence of one of the points I would make.
And I guess the other thing I would kind of say I wish people knew is that how you behave impacts how I experience church. So we're not all kind of, we're all in it together, um, and we all make the environment we're in. And it comes back to Ian's point of kind of don't generalise, there's, everyone has very varying different support needs and things that that work better for them and that ask and don't don't assume basically.
Zoe: Yeah, all that's so important and from my perspective as um, not an autistic person and I think what I've learned so much is listening to people and actually yeah, don't assume that you're the person who's there to fix all these problems without even Kind of acknowledging that autistic people have voices and experiences to share.
Um, I also think from the perspective of children, like, Sunday school can be a hugely problematic space for neurodivergent children. And I think just reflect on like, is what I'm teaching in Sunday school going to be accessible to autistic children? Is it going to be a safe space for autistic children?
And I think that needs to come from like the top down. Um, and also just do your research. If you're a pastor or a priest or whatever else, you very likely have autistic people in your congregation. So do your research and yeah, know what you're talking about.
Krysia: And I guess I could, I'd add onto that, but just because you did a, an online diploma, don't think you know everything.
It's keep asking questions, keep thinking, keep It's just seeking out some fantastic resources out there, for example, some that I like with the centre and I know Anne Emmett's done some fantastic work. So you can find stuff quite easily that is actually really embodies what it's like to be autistic. Um.
And that's really, really good, high quality stuff.
Zoe: We actually do have some tips for churches on the Centre for Autism and Theology YouTube playlist. So I'll put a link in the description for that and yeah, hopefully that helps as well
Krysia: so the next question we have is that given that neurodivergent people are diverse in ourselves, and we all have different needs, um, for example, sensitivities and things like public worship. How can a church work to accommodate and include as many people as possible.
Ian: Yeah, and that's a, that's a really difficult question. I think, um, I think one of the dangers in that question is getting enamored with the idea of people that aren't there and forgetting about the people that are already there right? Because like Zoe said, you should not assume that there are not already neurodivergent individuals in your congregation. I can assure you. I mean, I've got my congregation is only, um, on an average Sunday we have about 65 people, and we have at least, um, at least three neurodivergent individuals on any given Sunday, right?
So. It's you are, you already have these people. So what really if you want to be welcoming and you want to be, um, you, you really want to embrace neurodiversity and neurodivergence, then start with them and start with seeing how. You might improve the experience for them and how you might, um, better pay attention to what needs that they have.
Because you can't ever create a system or a worship experience that is, that is really, truly open to everyone who's Who's neurodivergent because some of them have exactly polar opposite needs, right? Some of them are sensory avoidant and some of them are sensory seeking. Some of them want that organ blasting so that they can feel it in their chest.
And for some of them, if they hear even one peep out of the pipes, it's too much. So, um, so start with who's there and start with really truly making, I think the biggest. The biggest, the biggest demographic that's likely to be there is children. Not because autism is a children's disease, as some people misunderstand, but because we're doing a better job of identifying it in this generation than we have in previous ones.
So there's more likely going to be neurodivergent kids in Sunday school or in worship. And focus on making, focus on asking them because they will be honest with you. That's my, that's my two cents.
Krysia: I guess this, to me, when I was thinking about this question, reminded me of the conversation I had with Leon on the second cat chat episode where we spoke about is there a church that really is inclusive, um, for everyone?
Is it possible or do we want lots of small little communities? Um, and I guess for me it'd be working, like Ian said, with the people you know who are there, and also the people who are... already there who may perhaps don't know that they're neurodivergent or that they're autistic or dyslexic, dyspraxic. So actually in a way it's about meeting people who are there and I guess the other thing is being really not thinking we've met everybody's needs so we've now done our job.
Here's our tick box, we have done it. It's a consistent and dynamic and ongoing Attitude and action and reflection. And I think that's how you probably can accommodate as many people as possible by consistently seeking to improve. So there's lots of little small things that Anne Mehmet has in her 2019 guidance she wrote. Um, it's hosted by Oxford Diocese. So rather than me saying, Oh, these are my ideas. She has some fantastic ideas there. Um, but it's almost the small things that help for the culture change. I think. that really will help accommodate and include as many as possible of who are there and that will allow more people to come to you.
Zoe: Yeah, all I'd add to those incredible answers is like the more little things you do the more approachable you become and the more comfortable people are likely to feel coming to you and telling them your needs.
Ian: Our next question is, uh, I would like to know more about other people's experiences with small fellowship groups slash Bible studies.
I find them difficult. What do you all think?
Krysia: I think this is a really interesting question. So I've been in a few varying experiences of small fellowship group or Bible studies both in the UK and in Germany where I used to live. Um, and I think what I found probably the most difficult was, um, the expectation to kind of come and understand and process on the spot as well as all this kind of social chit chat, small talk.
Um, I now don't attend anything like a small fellowship group or Bible study group, um, because I found it. It's generally very difficult, like you're saying, and I don't really have an answer about if we should or shouldn't do them. But what I have found has worked for me is being with like minded people where I can have that, those discussions, perhaps in a more organic way.
And I guess that's probably because that would work for me. I don't think it would necessarily work for every autistic person because we will have different ways we want to engage with the Bible and with other people in our church and have those discussions. But I guess being with people who have similar experiences and a similar theological understanding has really helped me feel more confident, I guess.
Ian: Yeah, I think, so, um, this is, this is, I love, love, love, love studying scripture. Um, it's one of my favorite things to do in the entire world. Um, but I have also had some bad experiences with small groups or Bible study groups and, and there's two different, there's two different aspects to this. Um, one, I think that there are sort of three phases of Christian life in community. Um, first you gather, then you're formed, and then you're sent out to do work together, right? And I think if you skip that first step, if you don't gather, if you don't get to know each other, if you don't have a baseline level of trust, then it's really hard to To do any formation work together because you need to trust each other and you need to be willing to be vulnerable in asking questions and giving answers or, or offering opinions that may or may not be a hundred percent correct.
And so if you're just thrown into a group that you don't have that level of trust with, for me in particular, it's really, really difficult. Um, and there are plenty of people who are more extroverted, who are more external processors who might thrive in that sort of setting. But for me, it's just. It's total shutdown, right?
So that's one is you have to make sure that it's the, it's a group of people that you have that level of trust with. Um, and that's sort of doubly difficult for autistic people, I think, because there's so much, so much trauma from classroom settings and stuff like that for a lot of us where, um, yeah. We have have very definite experiences of of going out on that limb and having it break right on right from under us, right?
And so I sympathize with the question being asked because I know that feeling well, but I've also been privileged to have, um, to have really good experiences, um, as Uh, in, in Bible studies. And for me in particular, a lot of times, um, it works really well as a priest because I get to do the studying beforehand and then I get to info dump about it. And people might ask questions and maybe I have the answers or maybe I don't, or maybe it just leads to discussion. But there's a, there's a, uh, a sort of difference in between that then and, and just sitting and talking with a bunch of people, um, like in a fellowship group and I've had good ones of those. But. But it's few and far between in some ways, right?
Zoe: Yeah. And just to add to that, um, again, I'm not coming from an autistic perspective, but from a dyslexic perspective, Bible study groups are something that come up again and again in my research with people just struggling for similar reasons. Um, I think, Bible studies are a place where a lot of neurodivergent people are struggling and that probably needs to be addressed, um, by church leaders, group leaders, others, and yeah, a lot more research needs done on that.
Um, our next question, I'm just going to give a super quick answer to this. Um, what research questions are currently being investigated at Aberdeen? If you go on to our Um, Center for Autism website. We have a whole list of research projects. We also have links to some YouTube videos where there's a few of us talking about our research.
Um, so yeah, have a look there and there's loads of exciting projects. Feel free to contact any researchers as well. I'm sure they'd be happy to chat more.
Ian: Nice. And our, uh, final question is, what has been the most memorable thing about working with CAT?
Krysia: I Think that's a really good question. I really enjoyed working on our new article, United by Neurodiversity. I thought that was really interesting. It was great to work with both, um, postgraduate researchers and staff, and people being able to share their experiences. Um, and I guess the other thing that's really, really memorable about working with CAT is actually the support we give each other. because I know a couple of us feel that we're the only one at our institution doing what we do. I mean, we come to CAT and we're among not only colleagues and peers, but friends as well. So I guess I'd say that's actually the most memorable thing.
Zoe: Yeah, I think for me, the most memorable thing, kind of similar to what you're saying, Krysia, has been the community. And while I'm not autistic, I feel like I've found a group of people that I can be myself around that, um, I can do like, Just be myself. And I really love that about being involved in cat.
Ian: Yeah. And it's, I it's pretty similar for me. I, I, you know, I suppose if I had an autistic special interest in like knitting or trains, it would've been easier to this point to find a community that really shared that, that I could share that with. Um, because it's, it's in some ways easier to find an affinity group for that.
But. This is really the first time, I mean, even including seminary, that I've, I've felt like I've found a community of people that truly share my special interest. Right. Um, and that's not to say that everyone's autistic or that this is everyone's autistic special interest, but it's, it's just so exciting and thrilling to be able to engage in, uh, talking about what I want to talk about with people who are actually interested in it and not just sort of humoring me or putting up with it because they care about me, but are actually interested in, in the ideas themselves. Like that's just, it's such a gift.
Krysia: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you have further questions, feel free to get in touch. Our next episode will be in two weeks time. We'd also love to invite you to the next webinar with the Centre for Autism and Theology. On the 7th of December. with Dr Karen Hills on the spiritual experiences and expressions of non or minimally speaking autistic people.
We will share more information about registering for this on social media.
Zoe: Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi. Please email us at cat@abdn.ac.Uk or find us on Twitter @ autismtheology.