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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
00:00
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name's Jesse French and thanks for joining us again. Wherever you are listening to us, we're grateful for the chance to be invited into your life in whatever way that happens today. And today, again, I'm excited for this conversation that feels like the cliche phrase, but I've anticipated it.
00:26
since we got it scheduled for the last maybe week or so, because this is, this is a conversation, not only with a good, good friend, not only a colleague, but it's been a kind of unfolding conversation over the last, I don't know, six or eight months. And so that part adds a level of intrigue and excitement as well. And so today we get the pleasure of talking with Michael Krommendyk and Michael is on staff.
00:53
With Restoration Project. is does a ton of things, but is our experiences coordinator and been on staff with us for a couple of years and I get to work with him. And so Michael, thanks. Thanks for joining us. Absolutely. Thanks, Jesse. I'm excited to be here. Excited to have this conversation. Yeah. Just give us a little, even just a little sense of like, where are you today? Where, where do you find yourself? Yeah. As we get ready to jump in. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of in general, I'll just be really honest and say,
01:23
It's kind of a crazy time. Like our kids, my wife and I have been married for 20 years, you know? And so our kids are older and just walking through a lot of like, we have four kids and we're walking through different things with each of them. Really heavy kind of focused on some of our boy, two of our, our twin boys who are in a significant transition in life right now.
01:49
Um, which is both exciting and scary for all of us. Like, so there's, there's celebration and there's like, Oh boy, what's coming. So interesting. This conversation kind of comes at that kind of seminal, some of those seminal markers, uh, in our family, because I've spent a lot of time then thinking about my own story as well. And those markers and whatnot. for that man. And yeah, I'm excited to see maybe some ways that this connects. And even if it doesn't like just.
02:18
those specific instances, just the chance to be able to take some time and wonder. so today we want to explore this very like broad topic that I think holds a lot of weight and a lot of history or layers for us. And that's this topic of sports and a lot of different ways we could begin to unpack some of that. But I'd love to just start with you and kind of your initial
02:46
exposure to sports, your introduction to that, partly because you're wearing a Detroit Tigers hat. For those of you that don't know, Michael's like hat game is, I'm gonna say unparalleled. Like we were at a retreat a couple of weeks ago and we were there for four or five days and I walked into Michael's room and he had what, four hats? Four hats. Four hats. Like just that gives you a little snapshot. It is very impressive. He is a lover of baseball caps.
03:15
Jesse, essentially what it is, is I found the silver lining to having a receding hairline. Essentially, like that's like I get to wear more hats. wise man, you wise man. What a wonderful reframing. Right. So you're wearing a classy Detroit Tigers hat. And yeah, man, tell us what the introduction to sports was like for you growing up. You know, and I think it begins with maybe a familiar story for a lot of us in not just sports, but a lot of different areas.
03:44
And it's that I grew up in a sports loving family, right? And whether we define that as like, grew up in a Christian home, or I grew up in a movie fanatic home or a board game home or whatever, like, we normally get our interests for these things based on, mom and dad, what are you guys interested in? Right? Because that's where we find ourselves, right? So for me, like, and this, like the sports loving thing was something that just goes really, really deep.
04:13
in my home as well. Like I'm wearing a Tigers hat because it was my childhood team and recently even had a memory of going to my grandpa and grandma's house in the summer. And I don't remember a time where my grandpa wasn't sitting watching the Tigers game on TV while my grandma followed along and was in for it the whole time while she was knitting. Yes. Oh, yes. What was her name? I have to hear her name. What was her name? Sophia.
04:42
Need you say more? So grandma's getting while watching the Tigers. Yeah. Will and Sophie, right? Give them a shout out on the podcast. Um, but so it was therefore obviously ingrained in my dad and my dad loved baseball and all things sports. So there's an immense amount of goodness there. Like there's immense amount of like, I do remember playing catch with my dad. I remember my dad, you know, coaching my little league teams and stuff. I remember going to tiger stadium.
05:12
once or twice a summer and the magic that that place held for me. What's interesting is like, I remember sometimes moments from our home of like crazy sports moments, right? Like where Christian Leighton or catches the ball across court, right? And turns and shoots and wins the game against Kentucky. Yes, sir. Yep. Which we hated Duke. I remember you should have thank you for being on the correct side of that debate. I remember like watching a super bowl and
05:41
God bless the Buffalo Bills, but they could just not get it done. Right. I remember Scott Norwood. There's a name for you. Right. Right. What was it? I don't remember, but I remember like I remember that feeling. I remember like being in the living room and all of my brothers jumping up because I think that was against the Giants maybe and my brothers like the Giants. Okay. I those are some of the memories that I have. And it's it's something that to this day.
06:10
my dad and I, my family and I like, I'm going to see my family here next week, two of my brothers and my mom and dad, and we'll talk about sports a lot, right? So there's goodness there. There's connection there. There's camaraderie there. There's all of those things. Totally. And I think those are helpful labels to it of the connection of the camaraderie. Maybe in just one step deeper, as you have the memories of those vivid events, do you remember what it felt like?
06:38
Like as you were a young boy or teenager, whenever it was like what it like to be in that space with your brothers, with your parents. Yeah. just like another memory that just came to my mind, uh, growing up in Michigan was back in the late eighties, early nineties, the pistons and the red wings were really good. And I remember we listened to the radio. I feel really old and saying that that is a very old soul comments. Wow.
07:06
But it's kind of a lost art. Like we can geek out on this for just like 12 seconds. Like it is this enjoyment of sports on the radio. mean, talk about like the total anti-TikTok way of consuming something. Sorry for all you 20 year olds who are listening to this. What's our radio? But I like, I remember listening to the radio, like game sevens of whatever in overtime of hockey and
07:31
Like I remember all four of us, my dad and my two older brothers, like listening intently. And when whoever scored a goal, was like, yeah. Or like the bad, the other team did. And they were like, like, just, feel like your heart's saying, right. Yep. But the camaraderie piece is more of just like, feels like more of a connection piece, right. Of like, are in this together. My dad and my, my two brothers and I, like we are engaged in this sporting event. And in a lot of ways, like,
08:01
for better or for worse, like our emotional state rises and falls. Right? On the outcome of this silly little game, whatever it is. Right. But I think that you articulating the sense of connection, the sense of camaraderie. When we become aware of that, it does shift of yes, is it a game for sure? Is it in the scope of things? Yeah. Entertainment? Yes. But when we begin to realize like,
08:29
Hey, this is a setting for connection with others. Now it becomes something more significant, right? And I think you have some eyes for like, there is more to that than just the roller coaster of riding that on the high and the low of winning and losing. But that setting offered me something that I was desiring. There's a sense of connection there. Yeah, definitely. And I don't think, obviously we're not fully aware of that. Sure. You know, in those younger years, but what's interesting now is like, again,
08:58
Like I found not to, I don't want to skip ahead too far, but I want to say this to make a point. Like I've found myself in a space in the most recent years, probably the last 10 years or so. Like, can I sit down and watch a game with a friend of mine? Yes, absolutely. Can we talk about baseball or whatever sport? Yes, absolutely. Is that the place where I find connection and deep meaning right now? Not at all. Like actually, like I would much rather
09:27
sit with a friend and talk about things that matter a little more, much more than a game. But that being said, and here's my point, Jesse, like watch a baseball game, watch a, an epic, you know, playoff game of whatever the sport of your choice, right? Where the stakes are high and particularly pay attention to when the camera pans to the stands, right? When somebody hits a home run or scores a touchdown or gets a goal or whatever, what happens?
09:57
to the fan of the there are men in particular, right? Yeah, not just going crazy. Showing emotion, high fives, hugs, like we're in this together, right? Like it's this. Yeah. And then when they when the opposite happens, it's like, oh, this like I feel is do you feel this? Yeah, I feel this too. Like this is so it's still there and it's on display for us. Like anytime we watch it is most significant. Right? is. Yeah. Which
10:26
broad brush statement here, right? Like the permission to emote as men feels challenging. I'll just say that. And yet what you just described, like this massive spectrum of the highest of highs, then the really significant too, like I can remember talking with a good friend of mine who was like me, a lifelong Denver nuggets fan. And a couple of years ago, like they won the championship. And I remember talking to him an hour after they won, we were texting after they clinched.
10:54
And he's like, I was in tears. And on one level we can have the like, bro, it's a game. Are you for real? Right. And yet the curiosity of, wow, like something around that for him was this really significant, important thing. Like I got choked up when they won. Right. And so like the invitation to emotion, I think it's such an interesting thing. I love that you brought that up. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's like, where else do you see that? Like where else is it? Maybe the better question is where else is it?
11:24
culturally acceptable. Sure. For men to emote like that, right? And to be together in that kind of space. Yeah, right. And here's like, to your friend's story, like I want my kids to see like my emotion, right? I hope that the only time I show emotion is not when I'm watching sports, right? Well said. Yep. Yes. Yes, that it can. But it can have a much wider application. Yeah, then that
11:53
I think what's interesting about that, and you and I've talked about this a little bit in the past, Jesse, is yes, we're on this journey of having these deeper conversations and like sitting in spaces with other men where we're, we're crying for other, we're emoting for other reasons, right? We're celebrating or we're grieving with one another because of what's transpired in our stories and all that. So there's growth in us, right? And then you get to a point where I remember talking to you about this. I think it was last year.
12:23
And the reason I can remember that was because it was a sporting event that happened last year. Right. I was watching my favorite. Well, you Americans call it soccer. I guess I'm an American too, but I know I'm an American. This is true. Yes. Lump yourself. Watching my favorite soccer team, Liverpool play like a playoff game. And I remember I was really into the game. They were against the hated Manchester United team. And again, it's a playoff game, but it's not my culture. Like I've only been a fan of the team for like four or five years.
12:53
And it was like a devastating loss, right? On a Sunday. And I remember watching that game and just feeling in my body just the, oh, like almost like it was the end of the world. Right. And we're talking about like, I've done a lot of work. I've done a lot of like things in my life and good things that God is working in me. If I have this happen and I'm like, I get in a bad mood, I get short with my wife. I get like,
13:23
This thing has affected me. Right. And I'm like, what the heck is going on right now? Like, why is this so important to me that it affect? And it probably really affected the rest of my day or at least half of it. Yeah. Right. To where I was like still feeling that and real grumpy and you know, and I'm like, what the heck? What is that? So
13:48
I think that's such a great example. And I'd love to hear kind of like how you engage that and how you navigated that, because I think it could be very easy for yourself or from someone else to hear that story and respond with this sarcasm or judgment of just, you know, the line of like, get over it, Michael, it's a freaking soccer game. There are so many more important things, which this is true in the scope of it. is. Right. It is a game. And yet.
14:16
A response of curiosity feels like it begins to open that up to something different than just judgment. So yeah, take us a little bit into how you navigated the aftermath. And I think I think one of the keys are for me before going into that is the recognition that my body felt something right. Like what you're saying, my mind, I don't remember that day, to be honest with you, if my mind was like trying to like reason, dude, this is just a
14:45
a soccer game on the other side of the world. Like in the end, it doesn't really matter at all. Right. I'm sure my mind was aware of that, but my body was like, no, this is important. Right. Yeah. So like you said, when we understand that something is happening in our body, that just logically doesn't make sense. The kindest way for us, not always the way that we go, but the kindest way for us to go is to bring some curiosity.
15:15
to that awareness of what's going on in body. And I think that's where I just began, really, and this, like I said, this was about a year ago, really think looking into this idea of how much sports played a significant part of my growing up and the things that I loved and the highest of highs. And also some of the times where I was just like, man, that really sucks. That's really terrible. Like I did not like that feeling at all. You know, so it's
15:44
bringing some awareness to those and just asking questions about like, Michael, what is this about? Like, what is your story with sports and bringing some legitimacy to that in a way, right? Like of, of saying, okay, for a little Mikey, this was a big deal. Like this was life and death. Like I'm going to out myself here. Okay. Like I was a Detroit Pistons fan back in the late eighties, early nineties.
16:14
Dumars, Thomas. Yes. I didn't know anything about like how bad the bad boys were. Yeah, I knew was I knew the starting lineup and I knew how the guy who announced them and like welcomed them into the game like we're walking them into you know, the starting lineups. knew exactly his tonation and inflection with how he introduced them. And if my family's listening to that, they're probably laughing all the time.
16:40
push play on the tape recorder and play the final countdown by Europe. Oh, and I would like starting at guard like I would go through all of them. Right. Yep. And I knew those guys. And it's like, especially think about this, Jesse. And here's what's important from a little boy's perspective. I'm not that far away from that. From a little boy's perspective, like the guys who play these games under the big lights, there's a space where you're just like,
17:11
be me. Right. And there's the sense of wonder and imagination. I would have this exact same thing when I walk into like a baseball stadium still to this day, right? Of like, that childhood wonder of like, man, I don't know if it's possible. What if like one day, I could be on that field catching fly balls for batting practice? What would that like that amazing act like joy and hope?
17:38
of what could be of a little boy's dream who grew up in a sports home. Yeah. Don't let me put words in your mouth, but is there also a sense for you, Michael, like when you walked into Tiger Stadium, not only was it an aspirational like, Hey, could this be possible maybe to catch five balls? But was there also a sense of, Hey, I'm participating in this? Like, yes, I am not on the field, but I'm in the stadium. This is my team.
18:04
Like there is more of a participation in there than just this passive observance. There is an invitation to join that in a meaningful way. Yeah, it is. It's totally that invitation. And there's totally from a little boy's perspective, this idea of like, this is the team that yesterday I watched on TV or listened to on the radio and Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker are out there in the middle of the infield and they're fielding ground balls. And I'm just like,
18:34
I can touch them like they're here. Yeah, you know, yeah, so it's that magic. And yeah, it's the participation of and when I like scream, let's go Tigers, they may not hear me, but it's there, right? I'm in that space. Like there's, there's a spatial awareness there that me and these 20, 30,000 other people watching this game are a part of that, for sure. Which I would say, especially when, when we
19:03
are able to look at it through this lens of as we were growing up and as we are formed, like I think to have the awareness of this sports team or this activity that we did, or this participation in the school club, like fill in the blank, let's, you know, not restricted to sports to any means, but this space that gave us sense of identity to us, like as we were younger.
19:29
I think when we can have a number one, an awareness of that, some curiosity over that, and also to view that with, we are younger, the goodness that you said of that space giving us a sense of like, yeah, this is who I am. I'm a Detroit Tigers fan. think that sense of belonging of identity when we were young feels really important. It feels like we now we've crossed it beyond just entertainment, right? And now we're into the space of identity and formation in some ways. Yeah, for sure.
19:57
Michael, before we hit record, you and I were just talking and I think it's, you said something really important and you said, look, I'm aware that even just talking about sports, talking about the teams that we are fans of, just those statements have the ability to be incredibly potentially divisive, potentially isolating for other men. Like sports can be
20:24
It can be something that like you said, creates great connection, great camaraderie. And I have several friends that are like, anytime that conversation enters the realm of sports, they all but leave the room. Yeah. And so talk a little bit about that dynamic too, because I so appreciate your awareness of that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm in the same place, Jesse, in that, like, I have plenty of really, really good friends that have talked to me in various spaces of just like, yeah, I just, I'm not in that place of like,
20:53
Because it's almost like this assumption that when guys get together, like how many topics are we talking here? Just there's only a few topics. weather, maybe hunting. Like what else? there's. Yeah, those feel like some sort of bland conversation around work. Like those feel like kind of the exactly. And those are the things that you talk about with other guys. Right.
21:17
And again, to like be in a place like I don't really know this, but I empathize with other men who are just like, this is not me. And that's OK. OK. Yes. Like I said before, like I usually would have no desire to talk with sports anyways, like you and I, Jesse, like we love sports and maybe we'll check in and about it like once a week or something. But it's not it does not take a majority of our conversations. You know. Yeah. And I think one of the things we have to realize and maybe this is a good way to put it is
21:47
These kind of things are really entry points, right? Like sports is an entry point. Like if you're talking about the category of belonging, okay, which is a big category, which is basically saying, okay, where do I as a man fit in? Yep. Sports is like, it's pretty, it's how would you say it? Like it feels like it's pretty superficial. Doesn't feel like fair, honestly, but also it's
22:16
It's kind of base level. It's kind of like, it feels kind of like the required readings, not the right word, but it just feels like the, think you use the word assumption of like, well, yeah, I just assume you're a guy. so you have interest, you have an experience. Yeah, it's just assumed. But I think the danger is for men in particular is to like come against that, like, come to the point. Okay. You've talked about whether you've talked about your job. Next thing is sports, right? Right. And when you come to that topic and it's like,
22:45
Well, I have no interest in sports and I can understand why this would be, but it's like, well, I guess there's nothing here. Yes. Yes. So as much as it is an entry point, it also can feel like a closed door. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Cause I think what you're surfacing is and Cody and I talked about this a couple episodes ago in the forum of fly fishing. would say with men,
23:12
There's always the simmering dynamic, right? Of belonging of what you just said. Yeah. Right. Of where am I? Yeah. Am I invited in? Do I have the right, you know, street cred, the right experience to be able to the expertise to enter in? And we size that up instantly. Right. And so these other avenues of fly fishing or sports or whatever activity it is, like they are the entry points, right? For how most of our relationship works.
23:41
And when we can look at those with a different lens to be able to hear our friends say, even if he doesn't say it, to see him like shut down, as I start to talk about the Denver Broncos, to have some level awareness of like, he just left the conversation. He's standing here, but he is nowhere close to here. And either one be like, Hey, where did you go? Right. Or to have some level of curiosity of like, what did football hold? Right. Like now we begin to shift to say, look, your belonging is not based on you checking these boxes.
24:11
Right? Your belonging is around who you are and the understanding of, had the story of sports being this wonderful thing, but I want to know what it is like for you. And if it's not that great, our relationship is not threatened. And I wish there was a way to like.
24:29
Like it feels like these, again, you name the topic, like the topic, the fly fishing, the sports, the hunting, whatever it is, right? It causes that shutdown. And like we've been trained in our society and in masculinity that that shutdown is a, have nothing in common with this guy. I need to find somebody with shared interests. But here's the problem with that. Jesse is like, if we're really honest, those places are not
24:56
places of true belonging that our heart desires, right? I mean, having a shared interest in a sport or a favorite team, it only gets you so far and it's really not that far if we think about it. Yep. Yep. Right. Because what do you have to talk about during off season or? For sure. And trust me, there are plenty of sports talk radio shows out there that have plenty to talk to you, right? And keep the conversation going. But what are we doing here?
25:26
What are we really doing here? There is, you know, I have a really good friend of mine. She's a researcher and a sociology professor at a local university and her and I, like she talks to her students about belonging all the time. And how often do you think that is around the ideas of shared interest? It's not, it's just not because that's not what belonging is. And I think that's the lie that we've been fed, right? In a way it was something that I learned in my family, right? That
25:55
In a way, whether I like it or not, sports is my in in my family. Yep. It's from my brothers, from my dad, from my grandpa and grandma, like grandpa and grandma, our main connection point outside of regular family gatherings. They come to my sports games. Yeah. Right. And as long as I'm still playing sports, there's still connection there. My dad's still asking me, how is your game? How is this? I was. Is that belonging? Does that make Michael feel like that? That make Mikey feel like, oh, this is
26:24
what my heart is long for. Yes and no, mostly no. Right. Like my heart was created as far as belonging goes to be seen and known and loved and accepted. Yeah. Yeah. And sports gets that to a certain point, just like anything else. And one of the keys is just like the vulnerability, the presence, like all the things that we talk about all the time on this podcast. Yeah. Yes. Well said.
26:51
The lie that we have been fed and that we have participated in is the currency of relationship is shared interest. our friend and colleague, Chris Bruno is like, he says actually that the currency of brotherhood, the currency of deep relationship is actually story. It's actually the wondering around how we are formed, the curiosity around how events have shaped us. Like when that begins to be shared, now we're actually in the deeper place of fostering the law.
27:20
I'm so glad you said that because that's another aspect of my upbringing that I really feel in a way shortchanged in. And let me explain. I've actually talked to Chris about this before because we were so sports oriented and so focused on the next game and the next championship and the roster and all of this stuff. Right. It was it was just the story was did they win or did they lose? Like, oh, how many points did this person score? How many?
27:48
That was it. Like that was the story in a way, Jesse, like that is the story that I grew up in. Like my family. I'm the guy, by the way, now as an adult who says, Hey, did you ever see this movie? I'm like, Nope. I was watching the Bill's Kicker Kick a Field Goal. I was not that guy. didn't know it. Right. Yeah. So what I've been wondering about is it feels like to me and again, this is not a definitive statement, but it feels like to me.
28:15
that while sports offers some sort of a storyline, it is a pretty minimal and small type of story that sports has offered me in my growing up, right? When I began, you know, probably six or seven years ago to begin looking into, you know, all of this story work, the stuff that we've been talking to and meeting with people like Chris and talking to other guys who were
28:40
so much more well read in the fiction realm and well like studied in theater and all these things. While I knew what it was like to be like what how to identify a star basketball player or hockey player, they knew how to identify like a hero and a villain. There was some way some part of that that was true for me, right? The Chicago Bulls were my villain as a Pistons fan. Yeah, right. But it was very limited. It was because they were wearing this color jersey.
29:09
Sure. wasn't because of anything that like they were specifically stood for or were against. So I felt in a way and I felt in a way that like I've had a lot of catching up to do as far as learning about narrative and learning about story and learning about the highs and lows of a hero or protagonist antagonist, like those kind of things that for me, I feel like at times like my focus on sports has shortchanged me on.
29:38
And I would say, is a fascinating comment because I hear you talk about that. And I hear the like, from a, an initial exposure to like drama and like the drama of things. Sports is fantastic. Right? Like you talk about Scott Norwood and crushing. Right. And I sort of hear that of like, that feels like a wonderful intro to the arc of pursuit and defeat and redemption, like all of those things. Right. Wonderful. Yeah. And.
30:08
If it stops there, if it's only contained to like the sports storylines, we, yes, we are woefully missing it. Exactly. I think the thing that I want to come back to Michael is like, it feels easy to maybe like most things in life, it feels easy to operate on the polls when it comes to sports. And what I mean by that is like on one level, it feels
30:32
very intuitive, like you're saying to just have it be like, this is the entry point. This is the rallying point. This is everything in terms of connection. Right. And we're pushing against that to be like, no, actually I don't, I don't think that's true. Right. Yeah. But I think there can also be a sway because of the reaction to that, to just be like sports are dumb. Like it is just mere numbing out. is just perpetuating the surface level connection. And so it offers nothing good and to swing over to that. Yeah. And I just feel like.
31:01
When we have a posture of curiosity around how we are formed by places, whether that's sports, whether that's our families, whether that's school, like when we begin to have eyes around how we were formed by that thing shift. And when we begin to recognize some of what those spaces offered when we were younger, um, not perfect by any means. can be a posture, both of curiosity around that and
31:27
generosity to what that gave. I feel like now we're in the tension in the healthy middle of trying to hold that well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. And it's honoring the both. And right. It is honoring the was it a small story in some cases? Yes, it was. But don't you dare tell that little boy that it was a That's right. Right. Don't you dare tell little Mikey that Tiger Stadium wasn't magic.
31:55
Don't you dare tell him that like, hey, if the Red Wings lose this game, it's, you know, your life will go on tomorrow. Right. Yeah. Because it meant something to him. And it was a it was a safe place. It was a place of connection and still is a place of connection for him and his family. Right. And yeah. So it's like the celebration of it as well, like the celebration and the grief of it. We talk about all the time.
32:24
Michael, as we wrap up, obviously I would imagine that folks listening like are obviously their own journey is unique to them. And I'm sure they find themselves probably on a range of places, but like, what would your invitation be to folks who listen, who have maybe some sort of resonance around, I'll use the phrase like engaging sports as a window towards something more like what invitation might you have for them? Yeah. I mean, I think it's.
32:54
something that we talked about briefly earlier is just being aware of those places where it just doesn't make sense. Right. I'm feeling this emotion or in my body as I'm watching this sports game. Right. You and I talked about this with the Denver Nuggets, right? Like, oh, it was so much right. also like the tension, as we mentioned, the tension between what is going on in our bodies and me.
33:22
Maybe what our wives will say to us after. That's that's Michael, was just a game. Right. And, yes to both. Right. And like we said, why? Like that's what I came away from that soccer match last year on a Sunday. That's what I came away from. Just wondering, Michael, what was going on in you? What is at the core of this? And that rally really honestly, Jesse,
33:51
That was the first time I began asking these questions about the role of sports in my family story and how it's, you know, made me and brought me to the place that I am. And yes, do I desire a different kind of sense of belonging now? Yes, I do. But Jesse, like, and I've mentioned this to you, but do I still go to the baseball stadium by myself and like recall and welcome back that younger part of me to relive that magic again?
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because it still is magic. Absolutely I do. Right. So it is honoring the both and honoring our desire and our recognition that again, whether it's fly fishing, whether your thing is movies or books or hunting or whatever it may be or board games like right, right. Board games, right? Whatever it may be, whatever that is that thing that just like, yeah, let's do that, like causes your face to light up and like, yeah, let's do that. That is an invite.
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from the boy saying, Hey, come on, can we play? Can we experience something together and do that within the context, inviting that boy into those spaces and then also recognizing that that is good. And that is a connection between me and him. But I also know that my heart longs for more and more in the realm of belonging. Yeah. Yeah. So well said. I love how the Ignatian tradition
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always is like peeling the edges of desire. Like anytime desire is present, they are so committed to just to wandering around that, to sitting with that, to honoring that because they know and they believe that as we do that, we find God. Not in this like trite, easy arrival, but in the like slow excavation of
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how he made us and where he is. And so this awareness of, there's desire here. How might I dig in mine at that and wonder about that? Yeah, absolutely. Michael, thank you. Thanks for your willingness to join this conversation and to share some of your experience and your wisdom, man. Really grateful. Yeah, thanks. I enjoyed it. I love, I love this. good stuff. Okay. Let's do it again. Sounds good.