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Welcome to the FM Energise Podcast by Forbes Marshall, where we explore manufacturing excellence, energy efficiency, and industrial sustainability. This show goes beyond just optimizing processes, it’s about creating smarter, more efficient operations through industrial automation, digital services, and embracing the future with Industry 4.0 and IOT.
In each episode, we dive into topics such as process control and instrumentation, steam engineering, and thermodynamics, all while keeping sustainability at the forefront. We’ll also discuss how to create a great place to work where people feel valued, nurture a culture of trust and collaboration, and inspire positive change through social initiatives & CSR efforts that align with every organization’s core values.
If you’re passionate about leading your company toward sustainable growth, improving operational efficiency, and creating a culture that empowers your team, the FM Energise Podcast is your go-to source for expert advice and inspiring conversations.
[00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:15]
Satyadeo
The problem is not in renewables or depletion of the natural resources. The problem is the fact that we assume that energy, fuel and water will go proportionately with the industrial growth.
[00:00:12:15 - 00:00:18:00]
Pradyumna
Seeing that the awareness levels in India are much higher than anywhere else in the market.
[00:00:18:00 - 00:00:24:23]
Satyadeo
So focus on stopping wastage. And that gives the best ROI that makes your operations pick and span.
[00:00:24:23 - 00:00:31:05]
Pradyumna
How you can reduce the intensity. Four elements of design, technology, right, operation and maintenance practice.
[00:00:31:05 - 00:00:38:24]
Satyadeo
To meet the aspirations of the youth, we need to be creating many more jobs. One aspect of creating new jobs is industrial growth.
[00:00:43:17 - 00:00:54:14]
Pradyumna
Welcome to FM Energise. Hi, I'm Pradyumna. I am the technical head for Forbes Marshall. And today along with me, I have Satyadev Puroed, who is the CEO of Forbes Marshall.
[00:00:55:21 - 00:01:05:14]
Pradyumna
And today, jointly, we are going to discuss on industrial sustainability and with an emphasis on the impact of energy and water in the industries. So sustainability,
[00:01:06:18 - 00:01:28:11]
Pradyumna
Satya, I know it's a very broad topic. We have had many discussions around that. Right. And so it has many different aspects. So it has an aspect of industrial growth and it has an economic development in a broader way. Then there is an aspect of social justice and hence social responsibility.
[00:01:29:15 - 00:01:36:20]
Pradyumna
And the third aspect is, of course, the environmental stewardship. So these are the three aspects. And if you look at sustainability,
[00:01:38:09 - 00:01:50:23]
Pradyumna
somewhere has to encompass all three and see how we make businesses relevant with respect to profitability and growth. And at the same time, safeguard environment, the natural capital
[00:01:52:02 - 00:02:18:03]
Pradyumna
and also the environment broadly and see how the externalities that is being created by the industries with respect to emissions discharges and also the resource optimization could be done better. And we have a much better planet and society as a whole. So I would request you to maybe throw some light on the industrial sustainability aspect, the topic which we are going to discuss.
[00:02:18:03 - 00:02:29:02]
Satyadeo
I think we can narrow this topic down by taking an example, taking your cue. Maybe we can take an example which is nearer home, which encompasses all these three aspects.
[00:02:30:04 - 00:02:40:05]
Satyadeo
If you look at the current situation within India and all the developing world, to meet the aspirations of the youth, we need to be creating many more jobs.
[00:02:41:08 - 00:02:53:19]
Satyadeo
One aspect of creating new jobs is industrial growth. If the industry creeps growing year on year on year, then that gives opportunity for people to join and have built their careers in the same.
[00:02:55:10 - 00:03:13:11]
Satyadeo
Today, the context is that if there is industrial growth, it follows an increased reliance on resources like energy, fuel, water. If you just take last 10 years development in India, the industrial growth was somewhere around 4.5% to 6%.
[00:03:14:18 - 00:03:19:21]
Satyadeo
And just the coal consumption in India in the last 10 years increased year on year by 4%.
[00:03:20:23 - 00:03:51:01]
Satyadeo
There is only coal. There are other fuels that are giving energy to the industry. And there is a lot of emphasis and focus on renewables and energy efficiency and all the other things. So in spite of all this, the fuel consumption is growing at the pace of industrial growth. And if you look at water, it's actually outpacing industrial growth. The consumption of water in industry is much higher than the rate at which the industry itself is growing.
[00:03:52:12 - 00:04:09:15]
Satyadeo
So if you have a situation where to create jobs, industry has to grow. But if industry grows, the fuel, energy, water, natural resources are getting consumed more. This depletes these natural resources and also causes emissions and discharges, as you are saying.
[00:04:10:18 - 00:04:48:23]
Satyadeo
So you start with addressing one societal problem and you end up with another bigger societal problem. And the moment we talk about emissions, discharges and depletion of resources, the thought process goes to renewables. We start thinking about solar, wind, hydrogen as a fuel, which as of today we feel are in abundance. But I think we have to step back and address the core problem. The problem is not in renewables or depletion of the natural resources. The problem is the fact that we assume that energy, fuel and water will go proportionately with the industrial growth.
[00:04:50:15 - 00:05:05:19]
Satyadeo
Correct. So my question to you with your experience of looking at the industry from this particular dimension is, can the industry grow without really increasing their energy, fuel and water footprints? Is it possible?
[00:05:06:19 - 00:05:18:04]
Satyadeo
And what are the opportunities that one should focus on? Because if we address that question first, then we are at least stopping to increase the problem with every passing time.
[00:05:19:06 - 00:07:43:07]
Pradyumna
Very much. So, Satya, as you are aware that we have been doing many energy audits. So energy audits not only in India, but also abroad, like in South Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia and also in Middle East and Africa. And on an average, what we see as a result of this audit and among different set of industries like footage leverage, pharmaceutical chemicals and even core sector where we have done the energy audit. So what we are finding is that there is a 30 to 50 percent energy saving potential that today exists, especially in thermal systems that we are auditing. And to couple that along with this energy saving, there is a huge amount of water saving that is possible as well. And at the same time, the productivity also we see that there are a lot of gaps which are created because of the incorrect design. And it has a direct impact on the productivity of the plant as well. And if you look at this 30 to 50 percent of energy saving, what we are finding is that around maybe half of it, say 15 to 20 percent lies in category where there are obvious visible wastages that are happening in the plant, which we categorize as top wastage. And then there are avenues like optimizing system efficiency. It could be generator efficiency or it could be improving or optimizing the efficiency at the consumption area. So this has around around 15 to 20 percent as a range where we can actually save or reduce. And at the top of it, you have heat recoveries, which is possible in the entire realm of the process and utility. So both on the process side and on the thermal side, where you can eye anywhere between five to 10 percent saving potential. So if you look at what industries can do today is just to focus on energy efficiency and target these three areas and see how they can reduce their intensity. And if you look at on the cost or on the business side, the return on investment for most of the of the three categories varies. So the most lucrative one is top wastage, which can return on itself maybe within a year to 15 months period. And at the top end, that is optimizing efficiency and waste rate recovery could be something anywhere between or less than three years. So that's what we are finding today in the industries by and large.
[00:07:43:07 - 00:07:46:13]
Satyadeo
So that makes me wonder two points first,
[00:07:47:13 - 00:08:13:09]
Satyadeo
then what is lacking is the awareness lacking, because normally we feel the industry think about their losses and ability to reduce energy consumption by only five to 10 percent. And that also many times they are doubtful, giving the kind of dynamics that they have within the production and processes, whether that is available for them to accrue.
[00:08:14:12 - 00:08:33:05]
Satyadeo
So that's the first question. What's what's lacking? Is the is the awareness about the kind of savings that are available that's lacking or is it something else? And the second question I have is, is this saving available one time or can it be accrued year on year on year? So how do you look at these savings?
[00:08:34:06 - 00:09:29:19]
Pradyumna
So I will bucket the first question into two parts. So we have seen that, especially the country like India. We have seen that since fuel is not subsidized and it was always costier. So over a period of time earlier, maybe two decades back, the awareness levels were not that great. And but now with this increasing prices of fuel, so it is impacting the cost in a big manner. So that is somewhere creating the awareness. And also I would and also all the effort that we have worked on to create the awareness within the industry. We have seen that the awareness levels in India are much higher compared to anywhere else in the market. So there is definitely awareness and people have now eventually translated them into KPIs that what they would like to work upon. But the answer how to do it is something where I feel still there is a lot of gap.
[00:09:30:19 - 00:11:07:05]
Pradyumna
And if I talk about elsewhere, especially in Southeast Asia, I think the awareness levels are also a big gap. And so it's a double whammy. So if you compare India and others, so we feel that they are much. Behind with respect to energy efficiency broadly in across all the industry segments by and large answering the second question. So so there are two parts to this question. So part one is that it is an ongoing process. So I feel that energy efficiency never has an end date. So it's an ongoing thing. So one aspect is that if you look at energy efficiency and if you start looking at a parameter of intensity, that is energy intensity and water intensity, intensity both. So what we see is that today the water intensity on energy intensity is around one point to two point five. That if I if my required energy versus actual energy, the ratio is to that. It is in multiple. So today we are only seeing 30 to 50 percent. So there are two aspects either. Can we see more? So we don't know. We are not exposed to certain areas. We are not clear that how much more intensity could be reduced. And second part is technology, the viability of technology in itself. So there are are there available technologies because today there are many things which we know could be captured, but as energy efficiency. But today the right technology, the right return on investment doesn't exist. So these are the two problems that is coming in the way. But of course, the answer is yes, that potential is much bigger.
[00:11:08:08 - 00:11:09:19]
Pradyumna
And it is year on year. So.
[00:11:09:19 - 00:11:17:03]
Satyadeo
So if a plant wishes to grow year on year on year, keeping their absolute energy and water footprint same, they can.
[00:11:17:03 - 00:11:19:04]
Pradyumna
They can. Absolutely they can.
[00:11:20:11 - 00:12:22:08]
Pradyumna
And second part, which I wanted to talk about is basically the dynamics that exist in the market. So market dynamics play a big role. So today, when market dynamics, when I'm referring to so there are external pressures coming on to the industry, again, because of it could be because of environment or because of the growth aspiration. So existing plant, if they are expanding, so that means their configuration of the plant changes and hence their energy and water consumption changes. So that means the baseline shifts. So the challenge is then how to reduce the intensity by growing the production. So that is one objective. Second is due to external factors, say, for example, textile industry, they have now regulation. They cannot discharge water out. So they have zero discharge plant. So they are having the same production. But at the other end, since they are having zero discharge, their energy demand has increased. So now again, the benchmarks and the intensity levels are different. So again, the industry has to start that how we will reduce it back so that it doesn't affect the cost and keep them competitive.
[00:12:23:09 - 00:12:32:03]
Satyadeo
Exactly. Yeah. But actually, the energy and water as a utility are there to fulfill the process requirements.
[00:12:33:12 - 00:12:48:00]
Satyadeo
So the process and production leads these utilities. So many times that also causes helplessness because the production and processes that will take place in an industry are not well known well in advance. Yeah.
[00:12:49:05 - 00:13:00:09]
Satyadeo
And I think all these interrelationships make it very difficult to have a baseline which is clear and crisp to measure your progress against.
[00:13:01:19 - 00:13:12:14]
Satyadeo
Today, there is a lot of data coming in each of the industries. Many of the parameters, many of the KPIs that you mentioned are well recorded, well monitored. Everybody is looking humongous amount of data.
[00:13:13:17 - 00:13:23:16]
Satyadeo
But I feel there is still an inability to get up and define an action plan which is sustainable, which doesn't
[00:13:24:20 - 00:13:33:19]
Satyadeo
use the resources for every little increase in our enhancement in production that one is trying to aim for.
[00:13:34:19 - 00:13:35:00]
Pradyumna
Yeah.
[00:13:35:00 - 00:13:39:16]
Satyadeo
So how do you plan a holistic view of the whole,
[00:13:40:24 - 00:14:34:20]
Satyadeo
all the elements which are impacting each other? I think the heart of it is production and process. That determines everything else. Yeah. And I think there are four elements which one needs to look at when one is looking at a problem which has interrelationships like this is to get the design correct first. Very much. Because once you are looking at an existing plant, many a times you ignore the design aspects. You think the plant is existing. So why now go back to the basics of design? Let me start with what I've got today. But I think if you don't get the design right, other interventions may not be yielding the result that we would anticipate. So getting the design right, deploying the right technology, having the right O&M practices and then using real time data to sustain the performance.
[00:14:35:20 - 00:14:47:20]
Satyadeo
I think one needs to look at the whole thing in all of these four buckets. And if we do interventions which are discrete, they may not be yielding the result that one anticipate.
[00:14:48:20 - 00:15:08:14]
Satyadeo
So the process and production leading the whole aspect of the utility consumption and the fact that you cannot look at any discrete point intervention, but you have to look at it holistically, starting with the design and ending with real time data and sustenance.
[00:15:09:22 - 00:15:28:02]
Satyadeo
So again, looking at this in this particular manner, do you have any industrial examples where you can relate this part to how it has enabled industries to grow and reduce their energy consumption and water footprint?
[00:15:29:02 - 00:15:32:20]
Satyadeo
And can that be a way forward for others to follow?
[00:15:33:20 - 00:16:02:01]
Pradyumna
Very much. So we have been doing energy benchmarking, as you know, that we started doing energy benchmarking way back in 2003, when we benchmarked many process industries across India to start with. And we started measuring their fuel to production ratio, that is the specific fuel consumption and specific water consumption. How much water do they consume per ton of production or per unit of production?
[00:16:03:04 - 00:16:18:04]
Pradyumna
And then we started comparing who is the best plant, what is the average plant and also what are the reasons between this gap between the best and the average. And I think we have been working with the industries and industrial clusters to bring these numbers down.
[00:16:19:08 - 00:17:20:16]
Pradyumna
And if you want me to quote an example, I think I would like to add the example of brewery that we have done. So when we started with brewery as an industry way back in 2003, so they were having around 1650 odd mega joule energy consumption as an industry and production levels of close to 2500 billion kilo liters of beer that they were manufacturing. So I think over a period of time, we had been defining we did the same exercise of energy benchmarking and then we drilled it down at the overall level, from overall level to the equipment levels, that is at the brew process level as well as at the utility level. And then we started working with them and they also did a lot of things from their end. And today, if you look at the same industry segment after two, two and a half decades. So now the industry is producing 10 times more. They are producing close to 2500 kilo liters of beer.
[00:17:20:16 - 00:17:22:23]
Satyadeo
But you are not contributing to that.
[00:17:22:23 - 00:18:33:19]
Pradyumna
Yes, of course, I don't. But but the intensity levels have halved. So and the water level also has more than half. So that means the industry is enabled by working on this energy efficiency measures to produce much more 10 times more than what they were producing, but without impacting the environment at all and consuming much lower energy overall. So I think I think the key part is how you can reduce the intensity and the another aspect is, as you mentioned, that the four element of design technology, adjusting the design first and having the right technology to be selected and followed by the right operation and maintenance practice. So this go like a circle, if you see. So whenever you have to implement any energy saving measure, you need to follow the same step. And as a result of that, you need to keep on working on the operation maintenance and deliver the operations which will yield you a sustenance of the savings. So that it does not happen that it reflects one year and goes away the next year. So that is the example I wanted to quote. And
[00:18:33:19 - 00:18:52:20]
Satyadeo
there is a lot of innovation that is happening in the process technology itself, which is making it less energy intensive means the brewery example that you gave a lot of process technology innovations happened there where the whole wood boiling process became less energy intensive than it was in 2003 and what it is now.
[00:18:53:20 - 00:19:23:20]
Satyadeo
And same examples are available in textile industry, any other industry, paper industry, most of the other industries. We have similar examples where the process technology is also iterating and making the whole process less energy intensive. So combination of improvement in process technology and a better suitable design of the utility, that combination can make wonders and can yield the result that we wish to see very tangibly.
[00:19:23:20 - 00:19:24:17]
Pradyumna
Yes,
[00:19:25:23 - 00:19:54:23]
Pradyumna
very much. So somewhere I think the main aspect is that if you look in current jargon of sustainability, somewhere I feel that energy efficiency takes much backseat than compared to other jargons of renewable energy integration and other technologies that are there in the market. But I feel that energy efficiency has delivered much bigger and still what we are seeing is that it can deliver much bigger impact.
[00:19:56:00 - 00:20:36:20]
Pradyumna
And some somewhere down the line, we should see that how which technology is relevant. And I think even whatever technology is coming up, it should go through the cycle of same again design as we are saying design followed by the deployment of the technology and the operation maintenance. So how it could be integrated in the right manner and there cannot be one part to sustainability. So energy efficiency should of course stand as one of the key things because it has been there. Everybody knows it. So it's a matter of how we can work more towards it. And then technology is something which cannot have a single pathway. There could be multiple pathways to achieve industrial sustainability from technology point of view.
[00:20:37:20 - 00:21:24:01]
Satyadeo
So again, trying to pull out the key points from whatever replies that you are giving. I think the first thing is we have to stop wastage. Yes. Because we cannot talk about efficiency, sustainability if at one end we are wasting quite a lot of these very precious resources. So focus on stopping wastage and that gives the best ROI that makes your operations pick and span. So there couldn't be anything better than ensuring that there are no wastages happening inside the plant. Yeah. Looking at improving the efficiency as the second step, looking at the whole thing as a system and not trying to play any discrete interventions.
[00:21:25:20 - 00:21:51:20]
Satyadeo
And I think after all this, we still see that in every industry segment, we have few plants which are operating at benchmark levels. So it's not as if the future is not here. The future already exists. Many of the plants are really doing wonderful in terms of any of the KPIs that we need to measure on energy or water.
[00:21:52:20 - 00:21:56:05]
Satyadeo
But the average of the industry is way off. Yes.
[00:21:57:11 - 00:22:06:04]
Satyadeo
So again, establishing one benchmark plant is an easier task. But how do you improve the average for the entire industry?
[00:22:06:04 - 00:22:07:03]
Pradyumna
Yes.
[00:22:07:03 - 00:22:19:20]
Satyadeo
So any thoughts on that? Any pointers coming from these benchmarking exercises? Is the gap closing between the average plant performance and the benchmark plant performance or is it remaining same or it's widening? What's happening?
[00:22:19:20 - 00:22:36:10]
Pradyumna
Over a period of time, if I again, I need to talk about geography because the benchmark numbers are not comparable between the geographies. We see that whatever benchmark plant of particular industry here, the plant in Southeast Asia or Africa are at
[00:22:36:10 - 00:22:37:20]
Satyadeo
much different levels of consumption.
[00:22:37:20 - 00:22:46:00]
Pradyumna
So over a period of time, if you look at the example of brewery in India, we have seen something similar happening in the textile cluster as well.
[00:22:47:07 - 00:23:38:19]
Pradyumna
Also at a few food and beverage cluster as well. So many industrial clusters, we see the similar trend of the averages coming down because of the work that had been put forth for a long time with the industries to create awareness by and large. So I think that is happening, but maybe the pace at which it should happen and is something which is an area we to work upon. So and I feel as awareness is increasing, people are now seeking out to reduce it at much faster pace going forward because of the awareness that is there in the market and also the cost pressure are bringing it there. And also of course, the sustainability angle which the businesses are now facing.
[00:23:38:19 - 00:24:00:20]
Satyadeo
Yeah, I would have thought the bigger interventions like going in for and putting up a solar field or trying to get energy from wind or trying to set up a hydrogen fuel plant. These investments can be maybe are affordable for a few industries, few firms within an industry, but not to the broader set of players.
[00:24:01:20 - 00:24:16:20]
Satyadeo
So is the gap between the benchmark plants and the average, which is if I understand correctly is quite large. There's a 50% gap between the benchmark and the average for the industry over the years.
[00:24:17:20 - 00:24:34:16]
Satyadeo
Is any of that gap due to the fact that some technology is not available to the broader industry segment or why is that gap continuing even now ever since we first started doing the benchmarking? So
[00:24:34:16 - 00:24:48:20]
Pradyumna
I don't think that there is a technology part to this at all. So I think it is more related to maybe I will put it into two bucket awareness and priority as the two things.
[00:24:49:20 - 00:25:14:13]
Pradyumna
So and also in few industries, it could be related to awareness that they don't see that as the issue or they are not feeling that this problem exists. They are not aware. That could be one part. And second is the priority. So sometimes something else takes more priority than this. And then of course, the third angle of finance and budget.
[00:25:15:20 - 00:25:24:14]
Pradyumna
So I think these are the three axes on which why the average is not shifting. I think the reason lies between the three. And I think you can also add
[00:25:24:14 - 00:25:36:20]
Satyadeo
some more points to that. I think you have spot on many of these things come from the priority of the industry itself. But I still feel there is a kind of wishing away.
[00:25:37:20 - 00:26:08:07]
Satyadeo
If I say the benchmark is this and the average of the industry is the so and so and there's a huge gap between the two. There is always this reasoning key. The benchmark plant has is producing differently. Their capacity utilization is better. They're producing a fabric which is lighter in shade. I'm producing dark shade. And there is rationalization of that difference rather than eagerness to address that difference. And benefit as a result of it.
[00:26:08:07 - 00:26:14:11]
Pradyumna
Yeah. Very much very much. I completely agree with you on this point that people always come back and say that.
[00:26:14:11 - 00:26:27:08]
Satyadeo
How do we bring this whole benchmarking to a level where it is widely accepted by the industry? Because first step is to understand what the opportunity to improve is. If that is well accepted.
[00:26:28:24 - 00:26:33:22]
Satyadeo
Then the roadmaps can start following the initial phase.
[00:26:35:00 - 00:26:50:01]
Satyadeo
And then what does this mean? Because if we are talking about 40 50 percent the kind of numbers that you're rattling when you are saying this is the saving that is possible. And also if we see the difference between the benchmark and the average plants it's the same percentage 50 percent.
[00:26:51:06 - 00:27:02:13]
Satyadeo
So it means industry can grow by 50 percent without adding to an single kg of fuel consumption or a single liter of additional water consumption.
[00:27:04:19 - 00:27:19:06]
Satyadeo
Whereas today the past 10 years experience shows that every percent increase in production in the industry is leading to a 1 percent increase in fuel and maybe 2 to 3 percent increase in water consumption.
[00:27:21:13 - 00:27:29:20]
Satyadeo
So it allows the industry to increase their production output by 50 percent without consuming any additional fuel and water.
[00:27:30:20 - 00:27:38:00]
Pradyumna
Yes and that too with a return on investment which is less than 3 years.
[00:27:38:00 - 00:27:45:20]
Satyadeo
So your productivity is going up. Your costs are coming down per unit of production very significantly. Very much.
[00:27:47:00 - 00:28:24:00]
Satyadeo
And you're meeting all the environmental norms. Exactly. So what better could you ask for in a way. But I think somewhere the finance point is also quite relevant. I think the return on investment is not very well understood for all the projects that one can undertake to make these savings happen. So I think there could be a lot that can be done in improving the awareness about these possibilities potential and the projects that can deliver on this.
[00:28:24:00 - 00:28:24:18]
Pradyumna
Yeah.
[00:28:24:18 - 00:28:32:20]
Satyadeo
Very much. Great great great. So we have a good task cut for ourselves in the times to come.
[00:28:32:20 - 00:30:01:16]
Pradyumna
So I think in conclusion somewhere it's not as easy answer actually to address this savings. So I think it has an element of awareness that need to be created at the plant level and also the part that we spoke about of the finance part and the priorities how to align customers priorities towards this. And maybe third part which we didn't talk about much was also the policy because that may eventually have an impact in long term may not be immediately. But I think all these three pieces have to come together to make this change happen at a broad level. And somewhere I think the messaging is like the industry should be unbiased and have an open mind and start thinking what is more lucrative for them to start with. And it could be starting with energy efficiency as you were saying starting with top phase stage and then working on step by step and then looking at available technologies in the market which can help them to bring the consumption down further. So I think that would be the kind of concluding statement I would like to make. So hope you enjoyed our conversation. If you have any questions maybe you can just put them in the comment section. You can subscribe to FM Energize Podcasts and thank you very much for watching this.