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A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
(upbeat music)
- This is, "Lab Medicine Rounds,"
a curated podcast for physicians,
laboratory professionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine pathologist
and assistant professor
of laboratory medicine
and pathology at Mayo Clinic.
And today we're very lucky,
because again, we're rounding
with Dr. Isabella Holmes,
a PGY-3 resident and assistant
co-chief pathology resident
at the University of Michigan,
to talk about her
reflections on residency.
Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Holmes.
- Thanks for having me,
I'm excited to be back.
- Well, yeah, this is wonderful.
I think we did our first podcast,
I think when you had just
matched into pathology,
talking about where your
thoughts and the like,
and then we've kind of
revisited how did first year go?
And this is just
continuing a fun tradition
of looking back and seeing this evolution.
I really appreciate kinda
exploring this with you.
- Definitely, me too.
- So I guess the natural question is,
so what has this past year of
residency been like for you?
- This past year has been so exciting.
I feel like so much has
happened in such a condensed
amount of time.
First of all, my husband moved to Michigan
at the end of the summer, which was great.
And so he started working as
a hospitalist at Henry Ford.
And so now we don't have
that long distance anymore,
which is fabulous.
And then I went to three
conferences this year.
I went to CAP, AABB,
and then the Cytopathology Conference,
where I presented posters at two
out of those three conferences.
And then, I don't know, I really feel
like I kind of got a lot more
comfortable as a resident
and just in that role of what a resident
is like at Michigan the past year.
Oh, and then another great thing
that I've been working towards this year
that has taken a lot of
stress off of my plate
is getting a few publications done,
and as well as I also accepted
a Fellowship recently.
So putting together the
fellowship application
was quite the project
because it is not like
the ERAS System at all,
where you can submit it all
in one neat little packet.
It's every program wants different things
at different times.
But it was relatively painless
and I was successful, so that's great.
(Isabella laughs)
- I love how you mentioned, you know,
it sounds like you're
really kinda hit your stride
of going to a number of conferences
and you said that you've
really kinda settled in
as like, you're comfortable
in this role as resident.
I wonder if, can you
unpack that a little bit
for the listeners?
- Yeah, let me think.
I guess what it comes down to really
is you're less afraid to ask questions.
You know what's expected of you,
and when I mess up, I know
exactly what went wrong
or where I took like a
misstep, if that makes sense.
And then also you kind of have
a little bit more of a sense
of comradery among your co-residents.
And now a lot of the fellows at Michigan
have also trained as
residents at Michigan.
So then now I also know
most of the fellows too.
So it's just like a really comfortable
like learning environment at this point.
And then I've already established
a lot of relationships
with attendings and the PA.
So I don't know, it just all
kinda makes it a little bit
easier once you feel like
everyone really knows you
and you are 100% yourself
at this point in training.
And so, you know, it's no more
of those like nervous jitters
of, you know, "Oh, are
these people gonna like me,"
or you know, "Can I be myself?"
And at this point I totally am.
And so that's kind of really
a freeing experience for me.
So that's kind of how I would describe
being more comfortable.
But now I'm kinda transitioning
into this new role
of assistant co-chief and
then eventually co-chief.
And that's been kind of
an adjustment as well.
So it's kinda like,
as soon as you get comfortable it's like,
well, now it's time to be a
little bit more uncomfortable
to get some growth.
- You're leveling up.
(Justin laughs)
- Yeah.
(Isabella laughs)
So don't know how that's gonna go yet.
I'm only like a month or so
into the actual position,
but I have a really good team
and we have good support.
So I think it'll go okay.
(Isabella laughs)
- You know, I hearing
you talk about taking on
this new and added responsibility
of assistant co-chief,
recently, I was mentoring
one of our residents,
who was kind of trying to
decide if, you know, does,
is he interested in taking on that role
or should he focus on his research?
And you know, it was a really
interesting discussion.
What was that like for you?
Was this an easy decision to
kind of go on, to take the,
to want to take on this role?
Like, is this like, leadership
skills or management skills
or something that you're
seeking to develop
or was this kind of a more
difficult decision for you?
- I thought about this decision a lot,
because I know that it is a ton of work
and you are not compensated
financially for it at all.
So that's not why people do this role.
I went back and forth on
it a lot, to be honest,
because initially when I
first started residency,
the thought of becoming
chief sounded terrifying,
because I was just trying
to get through the day
of being a resident and
not screwing up too badly.
But then as like time went
on, I had a few people,
there were fellows, co-residents
and then previous chiefs that had told me,
hey, I think your personality
would be really good
for this job so you
should really consider it.
And so then after enough people
say that to you, you know,
you kind of think, well
maybe they're not just trying
to make me feel better about myself,
maybe they're just like actually honest
and they think that I
would do good in this role.
So then I started thinking
about it more seriously.
And also once I kind of narrowed
down what I wanted to do
with my career, that also helped
because obviously as you know, I wanna,
I'm going into transfusion medicine,
and I kind of pictured what
my like career would look like
and I feel that my career is
gonna be in academic medicine
and I wanna be, my dream
is to maybe one day
be a fellowship director
for a transfusion medicine program
somewhere, I don't know where.
And so I feel like to do that kind of job
and to be successful in that job
to get leadership experience now,
and I have had leadership
experience in the past,
but nothing quite like this.
I feel like this is a very
serious, valuable role
that you really can't drop the ball
and you have to stay on it
and you have to be fair,
and all while maintaining
your residency education,
which is quite the challenge.
So I think that this role will
help me be prepared for that.
So given all of that, that's
when I finally decided okay,
I think that this is the right decision
for me even though it
will be a lot of work.
- Yeah, I could not agree with you more.
And if I can tie together
two things that you've said
so far into a question, I
was, you know, wondering,
you know, when you're talking
about earlier about when you
first started being afraid
to ask questions, right?
That kind of hurts my medical
educator heart a little bit.
I, you know, want people
to want to ask questions.
And then also you're a
very deliberate person,
obviously is talking about
making this decision.
For our audience of
folks who might be going
and following in your footsteps.
You know, how do you kind of identify
how you are doing, and
what you should focus on?
- So I was thinking about this
and I feel like there
are two aspects of it.
There are, you know, how
am I doing educational wise
and then also how am I
doing professional wise
and just with the day-to-day
logistics of the service.
So those are like the
kind of two categories.
For me, I think educational wise,
I do need some improvement.
Recently, we take the RISE,
which is the Resident In
Service Examination every year.
And we just took it this past March
and I did not do as well
as I wanted to do at all,
but I am only a second year at that time.
so what I'm doing to,
you know, move forward
from that is I want to
start being more deliberate
about my studying.
I've taken the approach in the past
where I write things down, I look them up,
I read on Expert Path,
do some casual reading,
like while I'm on service.
But I think I need to start
applying that knowledge
to questions more so,
'cause that's how I've always succeeded
with tests in the past.
And so that's what I'm
trying to do now is more so
watching videos and doing questions
and applying the information.
So we'll see how that helps me next year,
because for the University of
Michigan for our third year,
they typically want us to
score within a certain range,
and then if not, then they kind
of put you on a study plan,
which isn't terrible,
but I just, for me, I
just wanna meet that mark
so I know I can do it and then
just move forward, you know?
But, and then as far as
the logistics day-to-day
measurement of success,
the way I view that is
for me personally, when
I'm grossing a specimen
and I type up a gross
or I dictate a gross,
if I don't get any questions
about my gross, that means
that it was really clear, right?
Or if I don't have to go back
to the bucket for something
that I missed, that means
that I know the cancer templates
and I know what is needed
to stage this X, Y, Z,
whatever I'm grossing at the time.
So to me, I feel like
getting less questions about clarity
and having to go back on things
that I should have known,
like correct number of lymph
nodes, things like that,
that's how I've measured my success,
and that has gone a lot better
over the past year or so.
- Right.
And so, you're getting this feedback,
and you're getting it from
like, you just mentioned,
through here through the RISE exam,
for on the educational side.
And I really appreciate how
you divide these two up,
'cause I think a lot of us
in residency and fellowship
programs are thinking about,
what are the professional
or service commitments
versus the educational learning value,
and trying to always kind of find
that right balance between the two.
So I like that you're kind of
paying attention to those too.
I'm curious, like for
those who are listening
to this podcast who, you
know, have been, you know,
learners and now are faculty members.
Do you have advice for, you know,
what the rest of us faculty members,
is there one thing that, you
know, we could really focus on
to become better mentors, to
kind of be that assist for you
to kind of continue to
progress along both education
and professional lines?
- Yeah, so I would say that,
and I don't know if this would
be the most popular answer,
but for me personally,
what really helps me
is when someone is respectfully direct.
And that's what I have
learned that I really need
to progress and to succeed in my training,
because I feel that everyone we work with
at University of Michigan is very nice,
very approachable and very genuine.
But not everyone tells you,
'cause sometimes people tell
you what you want to hear
and not necessarily what you need to hear.
And I think because it's
challenging to convey
that information without, you know,
potentially hurting someone's feelings
or it coming off the wrong way,
because being respectfully direct I feel
is a true talent and an art form,
and I even struggle with that personally.
I don't know, I'm working on it.
But I think that the advice
that I've gotten from the mentors
that I really value at
Michigan have been the ones
that have told me, you know,
you should really do this because of this.
And it may have not been what
I wanted to hear at the time,
but it was the most valuable advice
that anyone could have told me.
- With the faculty,
do you feel that
in your trying to develop this
ability, this skill, right,
of being respectfully direct,
that's one of the aspects
you mentioned on wanting to focus on.
Is that something that...
What's the best piece of
advice that you've gotten
for how to do that well?
- I don't know.
I haven't really gotten advice
for how to do that well yet,
to be honest.
I think it is kind of
like, a learned practice.
I see how other people do it well,
and I try to emulate that.
But it hasn't really been,
I haven't really gotten any
specific advice for it yet.
But I feel like I will
be getting into that
as I transition into this co-chief
and assistant co-chief role,
because at some points,
I'm going to have to be
direct with my co-residents
and also faculty members
of whatever our goals
or objectives are.
- I think I'm gonna put a pin in that.
'Cause I'm kind of curious at next year,
when we do our next
installment of this series,
to kind of explore that.
Because I feel like to
some extent, like feedback,
and perhaps appropriately so are usually
quite private conversations.
And, you know, maybe it's
not as visible to those,
like unless it's happening
to us, maybe not as visible.
So that's an interesting one.
As far as our student listeners,
our residents that are listening here,
and as you're going into and starting
your third year of residency,
what are you focusing on
this new academic year,
now that you're getting settled,
you're hitting your stride,
you got your fellowship mapped out.
Where's your attention?
- So my attention first
and foremost right now
is towards my education.
And so what I'm going to do is,
the fourth years have like
a condensed study plan
of how they study during their like,
dedicated elective time for boards.
And so what I decided to
do is to take that plan
and stretch it out
amongst all my rotations.
So not in like a six week
thing, but really stretch it out
so if you have to do, you know,
a hundred cytopathology
questions, then you have two weeks
to do that on, you know,
I guess that's like a 10 day rotation
if you're only counting business days.
So that's what I've been doing now.
I'm not meeting those
goals a hundred percent
because I think that's impossible.
So my goal is to just
meet at least 60 to 70%
of that material in that two week block,
all rotations are all two weeks long,
so that's kind of what I'm doing,
and I'm hoping that that will be,
that'll be a lot more studying
than what I have been doing.
So I think it'll really show
in my RISE score hopefully.
The second thing that's
most important to me
this coming year is transitioning
into that assistant co-chief role.
And that's with basically
managing all of the meetings
and all of the things and
emails that we have to do
on a daily basis to keep
the program afloat and going
smoothly for all the other residents.
And so that's gonna be
my second main focus.
- You know, so maybe I should
kind of close out this podcast
and ask you, now that we're talking,
we've been talking a
lot of the actual work
of being a resident.
What if we flip it around the
other way and think about,
you know, are you, have
you kind of figured out
or hit a better stride as far
as how to maintain like, a balance,
and like, to continue to work
on your personal wellbeing?
Has that kind of evolved in parallel?
- Yeah, and I think it's
actually been a lot easier
than I thought it was going to be,
'cause I wasn't sure how
it would be with, you know,
my husband actually physically being here,
'cause I just wanna only
spend time with him,
and then just rush home, you know.
But I've been still working out, you know,
three to four times a week,
that's like my number
one personal priority,
'cause if I'm not
working out, I'm useless.
And then also, like
when he, thankfully is,
thankfully, and unfortunately
a night shift doctor.
So when he's on shift, I don't
really see him that much.
But when he's not on shift,
I really prioritize those
weekends that I have off with him
when he's also off.
So what that usually looks like for me
is when I put in call request,
I put that I don't wanna
be on call the days that he's
off, especially on weekends.
And then thankfully our
chief accommodates those
pretty well usually.
And so I just really prioritize the time
that I do have at home.
And then when he's on shift,
then I just am on all business
and getting a lot of stuff done, so.
- Oh, right on.
We've been rounding with
Dr. Isabella Holmes,
talking about her
reflections of residency,
and this has really been an
awesome series to continue.
Thank you so much Dr. Holmes,
for letting us continue this conversation.
- Thank you. It was nice to be here again.
- To all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your
thoughts and suggestions
via email to mcleducation@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe,
and until our next rounds
together, we encourage you
to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice through
educational conversations.
(upbeat music)