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Welcome to Trendy Words, the podcast about words and phrases that are popular in business and marketing, but are often misleading, meaningless, or outright bullshit. We talk about these words and what we could be writing or saying instead that is more effective.
00:01.72
Andrew Monro
Welcome to Trendy Words, the podcast about the meaningless, misleading, and nonsense words we use in business marketing and what we can do to rehabilitate them. My name is Andrew, copywriter and just a little gremlin, and our phrase for this episode is personal brand.
00:20.30
Andrew Monro
I'm joined today by my guest, Jo Watson. Hi, Jo.
00:23.77
Jo Watson
Hi, Andrew. Thank you for having me on.
00:26.51
Andrew Monro
Oh, it's a real pleasure. I've been, i think i've been following you for a little while now and you have a reputation of being particularly memorable, I feel, especially within the copywriting sphere.
00:38.22
Jo Watson
What a wonderful way of saying people find you quite annoying, Jo. A reputation for being memorable. I'm having that. I'll tell you.
00:47.34
Andrew Monro
I mean, I have no one that's ever heard that's complained about you, but tons of people that were being like, do you follow Jo Watson on LinkedIn? Do you follow Jo Watson on LinkedIn? but that has come up more than once.
00:56.75
Andrew Monro
I want to remind you before I think I originally connected with you.
00:59.80
Jo Watson
Oh, that is, well, that is lovely to hear. That's definitely a confidence boost. I am happy to take right now. So thank you very much. That's very kind. And whoever said it to you, thank you.
01:09.39
Andrew Monro
No worries. So for those of you that don't follow Jo Watson on LinkedIn, maybe you'd like to share a little bit of who you are and what you do.
01:18.00
Jo Watson
Yeah. So if you were to go and find me on LinkedIn, which is where I tend to hang out because it's, pretty much the best place for copywriters to be. It's a free platform for us to to show our words, so to speak.
01:32.26
Jo Watson
If you were to go on there, you wouldn't just type in Jo Watson, you would have to type in the incredibly twat-ish letters that are after my name. Don't ask me what they are off the top of my head.
01:43.02
Jo Watson
But I use these to to differentiate between myself and the fact that there's another copywriter called Jo Watson. So that gets like gets very confusing. Now, rather than use my personal brand to to to separate myself, I just had to put the letters on that I got when I became a chartered manager. I was very, very proud of getting them, Andrew. So thanks.
02:02.98
Jo Watson
So, yeah, you're looking out for for me on the Jo Watson series of eight or so letters in brackets. And then, yeah, you'll you'll just see me posting whatever's in my head, really, whether that's about writing or just about life itself.
02:18.23
Jo Watson
And most of the time, Andrew, I'm just trying to have a bit of a laugh on there, trying to make people giggle. or see the idiocy or or lunacy in in everyday life, because there's a lot lot of it out there for people to see, I think. So I like to to pass commentary on it where I can.
02:33.27
Andrew Monro
Yeah, it was excellent. the In fact, i was just you reminded me of a sticker that a designer friend of mine just gave me just today. don't know if I have it around here. But it reads, because this will also be her audio.
02:45.86
Andrew Monro
It's like in a comic format from like the 1990s.
02:48.54
Jo Watson
Okay.
02:50.85
Andrew Monro
And the speech reads, what a stupid time to be alive.
02:54.27
Jo Watson
Well, yes.
02:55.19
Andrew Monro
And I think that just that really just captures the mood that we're going for around here on this podcast.
03:01.76
Jo Watson
think it does. Yeah, it is a a ridiculous time to to be alive. And I think as writers, as creatives and as weirdos, which we were all already discussing before we pressed record, Andrew, we have to embrace it, don't we? And we have to just make sure we we have that that commentary on it because that's our skill.
03:20.96
Jo Watson
And I think the people who do see things as ridiculous, they they want people like you and I to to just, you know, share our take on things and to to remind them that there there is some sanity out there somewhere.
03:34.07
Andrew Monro
It's a reassuring to know. So to start things off, Jo, why is, or why are personal brands so ridiculous?
03:46.83
Jo Watson
Well, first of all, I just wanted to say I cannot believe that you've got this many episodes into your wonderful podcast and nobody has suggested it yet. I can't believe it. When you asked me, this had to be top of the list. Personal brand, it means absolutely nothing.
04:04.22
Jo Watson
And the the really ridiculous thing for me about people who use that phrase is that they only ever use the phrase personal brand. in non-personal settings. And what I mean by that is they don't go to Tesco or down the pub or catch up with friends and talk about personal brand.
04:22.35
Jo Watson
They will only talk about it when they are trying to sell something in a professional context. And that for me, there's just some massive kind of disconnect there because you're going in all in on on selling yourself and you think, yeah, but people did that just by being decent human beings and having something of a personality or something people could connect with or resonate with without having to go around and announce this is my personal brand it seems utterly useless and i would say i don't know where it came from but i think i do i have a theory and
04:58.99
Andrew Monro
I feel like that's that's a rabbit hole of the internet that we could easily get down into being like, where did this come from?
05:01.28
Jo Watson
your
05:05.21
Andrew Monro
Things like, what was the the word that we had it on a couple of episodes ago where I found out that we were hadn't been using it since before 2008.
05:15.78
Andrew Monro
I will put that in the show notes, but it was something like realizing that, I think it was maybe it was when we started talking about content. that might've been that episode where we didn't used to do that, but around like, around like the mid two thousands is when we started talking about things in that way.
05:24.44
Jo Watson
Yes.
05:35.13
Andrew Monro
That was that my episode that I did with Ed Callow.
05:38.37
Jo Watson
I love it.
05:39.11
Andrew Monro
and And it, I did just, it just, it's completely emptied of meaning and realizing that like we treat it like everyone does it at a time, but it really wasn't that long ago that we didn't,
05:49.79
Andrew Monro
twist, it feels like the human language for but for internal marketing jargon in quite the way that we've managed to achieve in the last 15 years.
06:00.78
Jo Watson
yeah I agree it's yeah it's it's just devoid of of all meaning I think that with content it probably had meaning and it's lost it whereas I argue with personal brand it's never had meaning at all and I think it's come from
06:17.30
Jo Watson
when people used to say you are more than just your job title. Now, I i get that.
06:21.20
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
06:22.77
Jo Watson
I do get that, that we don't want to be just a job title. No one wants to go to the grave, ideally when it's their time. And, you know, have i don't I don't want to have copyright written on my gravestone.
06:33.45
Andrew Monro
Hmm.
06:33.54
Jo Watson
I don't.
06:34.85
Andrew Monro
yeah
06:35.35
Jo Watson
But I don't see the harm in telling people that's what I do. You know, because if someone's looking for a copywriter and I'm here to be paid as a copywriter, it probably helps if I put my hand up and say, yeah, I'm a copywriter. But someone, some coach somewhere said, no, you are more than just your job title. They've tried to empower everyone. and And so people have gone so far the other way and decided, no, I'm my own brand.
07:01.18
Jo Watson
I'm my own personal brand. And you think, no, you're not. You are just a human being. with things about you. And people will often say their personal brand helps them stand out.
07:11.90
Jo Watson
It doesn't. It doesn't at all because people will say, oh, I'm covered in tattoos. That's my personal brand. It's not because so many people are covered in tattoos or so many people have massive glasses. And I say that because a lot copywriters tend to have massive glasses. I feel a little bit left out.
07:29.73
Jo Watson
You and I are the only two in the world right now that I can think of that don't have massive glasses, unless you're going to whip a pair out in a second-hand room.
07:37.44
Andrew Monro
I am actually nearsighted, but I wear contact lenses most of the time. there's like There's a little fun fact, but that is not part of my personal brand.
07:41.33
Jo Watson
yeah you
07:44.26
Andrew Monro
I don't sell myself on that.
07:44.45
Jo Watson
but most than but it just seems very if you ask someone to describe their personal brand they will just tell you stuff about them and it's it's not making them stand out it's just listing things about them so therefore it seems redundant they're just they're just traits and as i say if you're in a a personal context, like you're with your friends or you're with your family, they wouldn't describe you as your personal brand, would they? They'd just say, oh yeah, you know, Jo, she's a bit sweary, likes to have a giggle, she's very Northern, has a cat.
08:19.36
Jo Watson
God forbid, you know, that that they're saying, oh, this this is her personal brand. No, it's not that. I've not got the cat to make me more saleable to people or to make me stand out.
08:26.79
Andrew Monro
Hmm.
08:29.38
Jo Watson
It's just who I am and and how my life is is evolving. Yeah. Oh, the more I think about it, this the whole personal brand thing, it's not just trendy. It's it's bloody annoying. It really is.
08:42.78
Andrew Monro
And there's an element within that that I think that you're you're sort of touching on, which is the other the other thing is that inevitably the personal brand is also sanitized version of yourself.
08:54.53
Jo Watson
Of course it is.
08:56.01
Andrew Monro
So while, yeah, there's this sort of like this talking about, well, it's just myself, but on the other hand, it not, it isn't really, it's the version of you that's been sanitized in a way that allows you that, that makes you conform to what you think is expected of you.
08:56.70
Jo Watson
Yeah. don't know
09:11.55
Andrew Monro
and Like in the sense of calling yourself a copywriter as a form of sanitization by narrowing the definition of who you are to your work function.
09:11.84
Jo Watson
what it's going to say.
09:20.54
Jo Watson
Yes. Yeah. And this is this is true. And it is. It's very much sanitized. I think if you use a great word to describe it, though. It's very polished. It's put together. It's a bit like and I apologize to any of your listeners who are thinking, why does this girl keep taking things towards funerals and gravestones? But I am going to go there again.
09:38.92
Jo Watson
Whenever you go to a funeral, And i hope to God you haven't had to have gone to many. And I hope you never have to go to any in the future. They're not generally the most fun of Hangouts.
09:50.26
Jo Watson
But people always get up, don't they? And they say, oh you know you know, it's sad to say goodbye to David today. He was a wonderful man, always had time for everyone, never said a bad word about anybody, wouldn't hurt a fly.
10:04.43
Jo Watson
And you're sitting there thinking, this gets rolled out at every single funeral. It's only the name that changes. Everyone says all the good things. And I get that because we're celebrating the life and it's wrong to speak ill of the dead.
10:18.34
Andrew Monro
yeah
10:19.12
Jo Watson
But it's very sanitized, isn't it It's that eulogy. It's that very, oh, no, we'll forget about the fact that David was a complete dick most of the time he was alive because that doesn't that doesn't sell as well, does it?
10:31.41
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
10:31.96
Jo Watson
So, yeah, it is.
10:32.50
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
10:33.08
Jo Watson
this
10:33.34
Andrew Monro
Here's here's here's John. he was a bit of a twat, but we liked him anyways.
10:37.57
Jo Watson
We liked him anyway. He was fine. You know, he never left the house. It was impossible to get him to come for a pint with you. And to be honest, we were going to cut him out anyway. but But yes to John, everybody.
10:50.24
Jo Watson
But yeah, it is. It's sanitized. It's polished. And I don't like that because if it was true about this is who you are, this is everything I am, then we should get the bad stuff as well. And I don't mean the bad stuff that we we spin into the good where people go, oh, too I just care too much about people. It's my my biggest fault.
11:09.77
Jo Watson
And you think, no, your biggest fault is probably something like you never pay back loans, but you're not going to say that to people, are you? Or you never play pay your suppliers on time. or
11:19.00
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
11:19.80
Jo Watson
it
11:20.80
Andrew Monro
I'm definitely certain that there's some people that I went to university with who, if I were doing their eulogy being like, they never paid back any money you ever lent them. And it was, it was always a rite of passage of learning to be with that person that you never let them anything.
11:36.10
Jo Watson
Yeah, and you know what? Would you ever do that? Would you ever do that, Andrew? Would you say what you thought a funeral?
11:42.34
Andrew Monro
i yeah
11:44.06
Jo Watson
I think I would, you know.
11:44.84
Andrew Monro
i think I think I would, but i think I feel like anybody that was brave enough to ask me to do a eulogy would already know that they had to be careful that I would be brutally honest.
11:56.11
Andrew Monro
Okay.
11:58.15
Jo Watson
I think that's, I've done two in my life. I've done two eulogies. i would i would say the person asked me to do it themselves. Obviously, they didn't. They're dead. But, you know, people close this to the to them trusted me with it.
12:10.89
Jo Watson
And I was brutally honest with them. And I remember I made a joke that it was kind of poor taste. I made at my granddad's funeral because I always used to say to him,
12:22.57
Jo Watson
What are you leaving me in the will? And so I opened the eulogy with, well, I guess now I will find find out the answer to the question, don't I? So every cloud and half of the church laughed.
12:34.20
Jo Watson
The other half didn't. And someone came over to me after the the service and said, You know, that was that was really inappropriate to say about your granddad, at which point four or five other people came over and said, well, you didn't know her granddad then, did you?
12:49.52
Jo Watson
Because he would have loved that.
12:49.57
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm.
12:50.85
Jo Watson
He would have you would have laughed. And yeah, all for Brutal.
12:53.06
Andrew Monro
yeah And this is this is, I also think, something that I think just gets missed with branding overall, not just personal brand, but about being able to embrace and realize that that the things that often make both people and businesses memorable aren't the fact that everything is always perfect and polished, but it's often the things that are left out or the things that the company says, this isn't really important to us, but God forbid that you say no to anybody.
13:11.33
Jo Watson
yeah
13:19.09
Jo Watson
Yeah.
13:21.87
Jo Watson
Yeah.
13:22.62
Jo Watson
Thanks.
13:22.99
Andrew Monro
God forbid that you say, no, this this isn't the right kind of customer for us, or this isn't the right path, or anything that makes you yeah make you stand out in a way that's not even necessarily negative in terms of taste, but just sort of negative in terms of framing.
13:39.05
Jo Watson
Yeah.
13:41.03
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
13:41.49
Jo Watson
Yeah, of course. we we we We don't like that, do we? Don't don't upset anyone. Don't say anything negative. or Well, that's not life, is it? That's not very personal, is it? To just wash off the bits that you you feel might cause a problem.
13:55.22
Andrew Monro
Yeah. and And nobody believes it when they say it like we deliver a seamless customer experience because we all know that that's absolute bullshit.
14:02.93
Jo Watson
course it is.
14:03.84
Andrew Monro
there There's something that's going to go wrong. We just need to, we'll just need to discover on our own what that actually is.
14:11.13
Jo Watson
the
14:11.39
Andrew Monro
Hmm.
14:11.71
Jo Watson
yeah we'll figure it out when it happens to us I saw something have you have you seen the two guys I think they're Australian is it called Wankonomics I don't know if you've you've seen those two guys
14:25.31
Andrew Monro
Did you post, somebody posted something about that very recently?
14:29.23
Jo Watson
oh they
14:30.08
Andrew Monro
And it was something being like, there's a swear word in this and therefore I can't put it on LinkedIn because then the algorithm will hate me.
14:37.23
Jo Watson
oh they
14:37.47
Andrew Monro
Something to that that effect.
14:39.62
Jo Watson
People love to say how much the algorithm hates them. Like the algorithm cares about any of us at all. People are saying at the moment, I'm being silenced.
14:50.38
Jo Watson
I'm not allowed to say this. And you're like, there is no one there who is sitting there and taking such an interest in you and your life that they go, I'm going to sit in my LinkedIn head office and personally strangle your reach.
15:02.80
Jo Watson
They're not doing it at all.
15:03.22
Andrew Monro
and
15:03.92
Jo Watson
So that's, I always always laugh when people say, oh, you know, the the algorithm's against me. It's not working for me. it It just is what it is. and But no, it well, it wouldn't have it wouldn't have been me a posting about the wankonomics because I'd have just posted it, swear words and all, and what will be will be. If it doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't go anywhere. If someone reports me, they report me. I'll deal with it. I'm big enough and ugly enough to deal with that.
15:26.76
Jo Watson
But with the wankonomics thing, I saw reel of it. I think it was on Facebook or or TikTok or something. And they said about meaningless vision statements that And well, first of all, they they made the joke about, you know, most company meetings should be about what the hell is the difference between a a vision statement and a mission statement. And in all my years as a copywriter, I can't tell the difference, Andrew.
15:51.06
Jo Watson
I really can't. But they said how every company says the same thing. They all say our clients are at the heart of what we do. And then they they literally use, they put it up on a big screen,
16:03.22
Jo Watson
all the companies who do it it was like ba mcdonald's all of them they're all on there saying the same things and you just think you shouldn't have to say those things you should just be who you are don't tell me you deliver a fantastic customer service just deliver a good customer service and that will be enough for me i'm happy
-- Break --
Andrew
So to talk about how we can rebilitate rehabilitate personal brands, we're joined by Barry the Cat.
00:36.80
Jo Watson
He is the brains behind the business. He really is. its It's so on brand for him to be here when when I'm on some kind of Zoom or podcast or a call. It really is. He has everything to do with my personal brand. I am my cat.
00:52.65
Jo Watson
He is me.
00:54.04
Andrew Monro
But on the other hand, he doesn't have a personal brand. And I feel like he's kind of getting at the message that you're after, which is don't try to do anything, just you know be yourself.
01:03.27
Jo Watson
he And he is...
01:04.21
Andrew Monro
Barry can't be anything other than himself.
01:06.63
Jo Watson
He is nothing if not himself. I think he's proof that if if personal brand does work, then being incredibly moody and silent and a bit of dick is the way to go. it really is.
01:20.40
Jo Watson
Especially, not least, considering this is the the second time you've had to hit record, Andrew, because, of course, 10 seconds in, I start coughing because I start inhaling his fur.
01:30.85
Jo Watson
And, as usual, he ruins fucking everything. so
01:34.43
Andrew Monro
may Maybe one day I'll do a blooper reel and I'll i'll leave that in for that.
01:39.17
Jo Watson
Please do. Please do. god It was just so glamorous, wasn't it? The eyes watering.
01:42.88
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
01:44.46
Jo Watson
It's beautiful.
01:44.90
Andrew Monro
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But yeah, yeah the the good balance the bad balanced out with the good about being cute and fluffy.
01:55.70
Jo Watson
You are cute and fluffy. You really are. you really But again... I would imagine there there might be some people who might talk about me and they they might actually mention Barry because he is on every call I do. So like I, a lot of my work now isn't so much writing. It's about collaboration calls where I work actively with people.
02:18.67
Jo Watson
on calls and we get things done for their copy the content and their comms and barry is nearly always here and in fact repeat customers return customers come back and say where is he you know they expect him to be here they seem disappointed when he's he's not and they're just stuck with me and so you might get people who say oh yeah Jo's the one she's got the cats you know
02:19.97
Andrew Monro
you
02:38.99
Jo Watson
That's brilliant. I love that they they associate it and there's that thing about me. But by God, I'm not having it that this is my personal brand. You know, I'm i'm just a copywriter. I'm fine with that.
02:50.58
Jo Watson
It's, you know, by all means, tell people things about me. It's not a personal brand. It's just who I am.
02:56.63
Andrew Monro
Right. And because nobody after the call being like, I really liked the points that Barry made during that call.
03:02.57
Jo Watson
It's more about the looks he gives than the points he makes. Seriously, I have had clients where they've suggested something and then they've gone, oh, no, no, that was a terrible idea. And I've said, no, no, go on, it's fine, let's go with it. And they've gone, no, no, the cat's just looked straight through me, is it's not a good idea.
03:20.28
Jo Watson
was like, right, if if you believe on some level he is judging you for this, then so be it. But... I think it was a great idea but no they'll always side with the cat apparently he does know more than me so I just have to go with that I'm afraid
03:34.49
Andrew Monro
For those of you listening without video, the benefit is the cat is currently staring at the camera sort of downward and kind of sleepily and mostly just seems to be there so that he can be pet.
03:46.81
Jo Watson
He is. He's just here so that everybody bloody knows he is here. And for that reason, i think he would be very successful on LinkedIn because there are so many wannabe influencers on there who are just there to be there.
04:01.72
Jo Watson
They've got nothing to share. They've got nothing to say. They don't do anything. at all but you see them all the fucking time they're always on there they're always around and they're always just you know showing people yeah i am i'm here and i'm like yes what do you do yeah how can we pay you not that i ever would
04:20.44
Andrew Monro
what Why does the algorithm keep rewarding you by putting you in my feed?
04:25.12
Jo Watson
exactly what is it rewarding you
04:25.33
Andrew Monro
you know what I keep saying, not interested, Yeah.
04:27.76
Jo Watson
Yeah, why is it rewarding you and punishing me by showing you to me at all times? But yeah, for those reasons, I do think Barry would be very successful on there.
04:33.64
Andrew Monro
yeah
04:37.02
Jo Watson
He'd have quite the career, I imagine.
04:38.47
Andrew Monro
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So on the subject of more human people, if you were perhaps a junior copywriter who's new and you've been bombarded with a lot of talk about personal brand because you can't miss it, what advice would you give them?
04:58.41
Jo Watson
I would concentrate, and I'd put this not just to junior copywriters or people who are new to it or fledgling, all all people, everyone who's who's out there trying to keep a roof over their heads and and do a good job, I'd just remind them to do a good job and to get known for those things. You know you want people to to talk about you and you want people to talk about things like your work ethic.
05:24.51
Jo Watson
and the fact that they they do get results or they they do you know follow briefs fantastically. They do come up with creative concepts in our case you know as as copywriters. We want to be known for the good work we do. And yes, it would be wonderful if if people get to know us well enough where they say, oh, you know what?
05:43.41
Jo Watson
You can really get on with Andrew. He's a great guy. You can go and have a beer with him or you just feel like you've known him forever. These are all gorgeous, wonderful things that we're never going to feel better. awful about people saying about us but we would like to think that they'll say things about our professional standing as well and our level of work and how good we are at it and to add to all of that as well I think we do need to focus on what people say about us rather than what we're saying about ourselves. And it's like, you know, we we always talk about, oh, my personal brand.
06:18.09
Jo Watson
Well, I don't, and I know you don't, but you you get you get the point. My personal brand. No, no, no. Let's focus on what other people say about you. And that's why, and I know you'll be the same, I'm big on testimonials.
06:30.03
Jo Watson
I want to put my testimonials and my reviews out there in the world to so that people can say, no, this person has parted with cash. and got something in return. Let's see what the real reviews are about this person. So screw what we're saying about ourselves. We all polish. We all lie.
06:45.86
Jo Watson
We all just, you know, inflate our sense of self. So let's let's just stop with that and let our results and our our reviews and our customers do the talking for us because it's so much more powerful, in my opinion.
06:59.13
Andrew Monro
And some things really do need to be said by other people, not by yourself.
07:03.37
Jo Watson
What's the
07:03.63
Andrew Monro
You're reminding me of, and I'll use the example you gave of the customer service that you mentioned earlier of, I feel like i I'd said this to a client not too long ago, like sometime in the last couple of weeks of,
07:17.42
Andrew Monro
asking them and said, a little oh, what makes you stand out? It says, like well, we have a really great customer service record. And they're being like, great. But that can't be the thing that you said. That only really has power, especially because all of your competitors might very well be able to say the same thing. You might all have great customer service.
07:35.54
Andrew Monro
But what is meaningful isn't the fact that you have great customer service. It's the fact that your customers like you enough to actually say in their own words what that is like about you. That has power in a way that saying we have great customer service does not.
07:48.87
Jo Watson
Absolutely. It does your marketing for you, doesn't it, Andrew? It's out there. It's being said whether you hear it or not. And it it is it can only come from them. Yeah, they are the customer.
07:58.26
Andrew Monro
Yeah. Yeah.
07:59.77
Jo Watson
So they are the ones who get to have that say.
08:02.43
Andrew Monro
Yeah, and it's otherwise because it's otherwise really easy to fabricate, especially with lots of tools out there that are really good at imitating and copying things.
08:12.81
Jo Watson
Yes.
08:13.06
Andrew Monro
that That at this point, I feel like that trust is also probably at like an all time low, especially in just like marketing generally, because. There's so much fluff and it's all tends to look and sound the same after a while to the point where it doesn't actually mean anything anymore. And there's a rapidly shrinking area of of ways of getting a message across where the customer can feel like, you know what, this is actually probably legit. They just didn't say this because it wasn't what 10 of their competitors also said.
08:46.43
Jo Watson
Yeah, absolutely.
08:47.69
Andrew Monro
Yeah, just like your your vision and mission statements, which all end up looking exactly the same.
08:53.65
Jo Watson
They are people just, it's laziness, isn't it?
08:53.67
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
08:57.38
Jo Watson
It's laziness. Oh, we'll just pick a statement that sounds great and we'll go with that. And it's like when people say, oh, you know, we are we are honest and we are transparent. And I'm thinking, well, straight away I'm thinking you're not now because why bring it up?
09:11.29
Jo Watson
Those things should just be implied they really should.
09:11.53
Andrew Monro
Yeah. Yeah, it it's the the equivalent of saying you can trust me and realizing that like as soon as you frame it like that, I feel like a lot more people sort of recognize the disingenuousness of it.
09:16.85
Jo Watson
yeah
09:24.79
Jo Watson
Exactly. I wouldn't lie to you. Well, why have you said that All I can think of now is the distrust between us.
09:30.72
Andrew Monro
Yeah, yeah. there's There's a word, I feel like there's a word or a phrase that describes that of the minute that you say something. sort of what's the it's the Somebody wrote a book about it was like, don't think about the elephant or something like that.
09:39.77
Jo Watson
we
09:42.40
Jo Watson
Oh, yeah.
09:44.18
Andrew Monro
And it's, i I'm trying to remember what it where it came from. But anyway, I feel like that's the idea. It's like the moment that you bring up any questions of trust, that now becomes the thing that the listener is stressing about.
09:55.30
Jo Watson
Absolutely. And please, when you remember what that word is or what that book is, please will you let me know because that's going to annoy me now. i need to know where it is. And speaking of fluff, I'm inhaling more of it again.
10:03.00
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
10:05.62
Jo Watson
i hope you don't have to edit this too Yeah, absolutely.
10:08.89
Andrew Monro
but but That's all right. I will put the disclaimer, uh, second half definitely brought to you and sponsored by Barry and Barry's fur. So, oh, he's so heckin' adorable though.
10:24.19
Andrew Monro
right.
10:22.86
Jo Watson
It is.
10:24.51
Andrew Monro
So in terms of, finding that line, because I feel like at the same time, there's things that you want to focus on and things that you want to do try and get yourself known.
10:39.13
Andrew Monro
where would you start, especially if you kind of realize that like, you know, either people, your're yourre you're getting known for things that you don't want to get known for, either because you've changed or because of something or other, or just, I feel like this is the more relatable thing for so many businesses.
10:58.21
Andrew Monro
People don't talk about you at all. Yeah.
11:01.11
Jo Watson
Yeah, that's worrying, isn't it?
11:01.74
Andrew Monro
Yeah. Yeah. So if you were working through someone to try and select, where do you start?
11:09.29
Jo Watson
I think I would concentrate, again, it probably matches a little with what i said earlier, but concentrate on the doing rather than the saying, you know, why why are we wasting our time promoting ourselves when we could just be doing a good job and we could just be getting on with work and quietly getting customers and getting projects under our belts in the hope that they will then, as we've said, you know, go out and say things about us and And even if they're not shouting it from rooftops, they might just say it over a WhatsApp.
11:41.30
Jo Watson
But we can take that from that WhatsApp and credit them and say, well, I worked with Andrew at the weekend and he said, wow, you know, they're absolutely amazing.
11:46.73
Andrew Monro
Yep.
11:49.66
Jo Watson
You've changed my life. So we can we can attribute that. But I think we're in too much of a world now where definitely, you know, influencers or big hitters predominantly on on social media and LinkedIn in particular.
12:04.60
Jo Watson
They're so keen to say that you should shout about yourself and, you know, b be authentic, which is another word I can't stand. That's lost all meaning now. And again, if you have to tell me that you're being authentic straight away, I think you're lying to me or there's something underhand. Nobody should have to use that word.
12:23.31
Jo Watson
And so I think what someone is out there, though, saying you have to do this and talk about, you know, yourself. And I think, no, because what did people do before social media? they They just got on with the job at hand. And I know that social media can help us and gives us other ways to do things and other routes to success. And it can make a lot of things easier.
12:42.47
Jo Watson
But it doesn't mean we should be taking our foot off the gas so that people people know who we are, but not have a clue what we do. And an example is Did you ever watch The Apprentice?
12:55.48
Andrew Monro
Uh, there was, i would have probably been in Canada when that first started airing. So I probably would have watched the American version of it, not the, uh, the UK one. Cause I understand that one was a little bit different.
13:09.35
Jo Watson
It used to be, i don't watch it anymore, it used to be quite good. and But there were some there were some people on it who you remember more than others. And I tell you now, you do remember them, but it wasn't because they were the most successful or they were the best in business, which was at one point the point of the entire show.
13:32.13
Jo Watson
Alan Sugar found his business partner or his next employee or is his apprentice as it was, of course, hence the name of the show. But there was one guy on it. And I apologize again that I'm going to take us for a third time back to death, Andrew.
13:47.51
Andrew Monro
Okay. All right. Carry on.
13:49.36
Jo Watson
So, yeah, you've learned to just let me roll with it now, haven't you?
13:53.26
Andrew Monro
Hmm.
13:53.28
Jo Watson
i There was someone on it. called Stuart Bags. And he was in one of the the first ever series, I think, so very early on, so maybe about 15 or so years ago, it could have been. He's called Stuart Baggs.
14:06.07
Jo Watson
He died number of years ago. i i don't i don't know how, but he was he was quite young. And when people were doing, like, you know, talking about him, they were all saying, oh, yeah, I remember him.
14:20.27
Jo Watson
And you think, oh, right, okay. And they remembered him because he gave himself the name the Brand. Yeah. And he kept saying, I am Stuart Bags, the brand. And he kept saying it all the time. And it irritated viewers.
14:35.41
Jo Watson
It irritated Alan Sugar. And it irritated the other people who were in the the process with him. And he kept saying, I'm the brand. I'm the brand. I'm the brand. And the thing is, everyone did remember him for that.
14:47.05
Jo Watson
However, not one person could tell you what he actually did for a business.
14:51.32
Andrew Monro
This is memorable, but not for any reason that's useful.
14:51.34
Jo Watson
Yeah.
14:55.01
Jo Watson
Exactly. No new you useful reason at all. So nobody could tell you. put gun to their head. They couldn't tell you what he did. I know because I had a quick Google of it when it happened just so I could go, oh, right. OK, but I wouldn't have known.
15:08.88
Jo Watson
i wouldn't have been able to tell you how successful he was at that job or how good he was. I'd never heard other people say anything about him. And then the parting thing with it was that they went to Alan Sugar when he died. They went to Alan Sugar and said, you know, have you got anything to say?
15:24.67
Jo Watson
And he said, yeah, he'll be missed. He was one of the standout characters on the show. And for me, that said it all. You're a character.
15:35.38
Jo Watson
You're just some portrayal. You are something that is packaged up, however you choose to do it and put out there. You're not the real thing and you're not. actually doing something for business and we certainly don't know what it is if you are and I don't want any of us to fall into the trap of that and I don't think your listeners will I imagine they're all rolling their eyes at personal brand the same as you and I are but it's all about yeah what do we do do a good job concentrate on what you are doing and I think that the who will come after and people will realize you're a hard worker and a decent person and they'll find things to confirm that bias
16:13.49
Jo Watson
you're a good worker, they'll find reasons to see that you're a good human as well. And they want to be with you. They want to recommend you. They want to shout about you. So yeah, just do a good job. thats That's what i hope the world will will start so start promoting for people rather than, hey, a personal brand, look at me because it's it's terrifying and it's ridiculous.
16:35.97
Andrew Monro
Jo if any listeners wanted to get to know you a bit better or find you on the internet, where do they like go and look?
16:44.37
Jo Watson
So LinkedIn is the best place. Remember the twatish letters after the name.
16:49.33
Andrew Monro
I will put those in the show notes.
16:50.57
Jo Watson
Put them in the show notes and please do share them with me as well, Andrew, because I never know what they are. I think there's eight of them. I know they're in brackets. I think there's an M in the something to do with the Chartered Management Institute. God bless them.
17:04.81
Jo Watson
Yeah, and I have all over my my branding, if you will, on my website, agoodwriteup.com, if you want to find me over there. I always lead with the same line and i always sign off my LinkedIn posts with the same line as well.
17:18.10
Jo Watson
And that is copywriter hired by people with great taste.com. in copywriters but feel I will only ever be able to keep that line for as long as it is true so I i practice what I preach I do what I do i concentrate on doing a good job and I would love it if people came and connected with me over there please don't just hit follow because I don't get to see your stuff then. So I like people to connect with me so I can learn from them. I can hopefully laugh with them because God knows we need more people putting out some, you know, some some good humor out onto that platform because I'm laughing on that platform on LinkedIn, but currently it's for all the wrong reasons.
17:56.54
Andrew Monro
Great. Well, thanks for coming on. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a like, a comment, a subscribe, anything to let me know that you enjoyed it.
18:07.49
Andrew Monro
If you try to reach me, I can also be found on LinkedIn at agmonro. And if you feel particularly motivated, you can drop me an email at andrew at andrewmonro.com.
18:21.17
Andrew Monro
See you in the next episode. Bye.