So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

For the holidays, we're sharing a couple of our favorite episodes from the year.

Enjoy this encore conversation with Stephanie Harrison!

Stephanie Harrison is a bestselling author, podcast host, and founder of The New Happy, a movement grounded in the art and science of well-being. Stephanie holds a master’s in positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, formerly led learning at Thrive Global, and her work now reaches millions through her podcast, newsletter, and widely shared visual art.

Stephanie shares her journey from burnout to breakthrough, and why everything changed when she stopped chasing external validation and started redefining happiness on her own terms. She unpacks the difference between “Old Happy” and "New Happy".

Stay tuned until the end for a special treat from Stephanie.

Learn more about our guest:
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Music Credits:
Track: Follow Your Heart
Artist: Neil Cross
License type: Music Standard
Source: Envato Market
License Info: https://audiojungle.net/item/follow-your-heart/7195577

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Stephanie Harrison: [00:00:00] I have now realized that we are never gonna be free of old happy while we are living in an old happy world. I know that can sound a little bit grim, but I don't want it to be because it's actually the invitation to this extraordinary journey that we can embark upon of seeing it as a constant process of unwinding old happy in ourselves.
Stephanie Harrison: I think that our task is to unwind world happy in every moment, and to seek to notice where it comes up. Slowly and persistently untangle ourselves from that.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human.
Megan Senese: And with that, let's get started.
Jennifer Ramsey: As I was preparing for this, I was thinking. I could probably speak to this person for hours and hours and hours, but we only have a finite amount of time [00:01:00] here, so let's get right to it. We are so honored to welcome Stephanie Harrison to so much to say. Stephanie is the founder of The New Happy, which is a movement and a bestselling book rooted in the art.
Jennifer Ramsey: Science of Wellbeing. She has a master's degree in positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she also taught and previously led learning at Thrive Global. Her work reaches millions through the new Happy podcast. Newsletter artwork, corporate trainings and more. She's written for the likes of Harvard Business Review and CNBC and has been featured in the New York Times, Oprah Daily and Fast Company among many, many, many, many others.
Jennifer Ramsey: Her first book, new Happy Getting Happiness Right in A World That's Got It Wrong, was released in May, 2024 and [00:02:00] became an instant international best seller. And we are so grateful to welcome you today, Stephanie.
Stephanie Harrison: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be here with both of you and for your kindness and support over the years and just having the chance to connect with you both.
Stephanie Harrison: So thank you so much for having me.
Megan Senese: I'm sure this is the question that everybody start, kind of starts with why happiness? Like, like why happiness? How did happiness find you or not find you?
Stephanie Harrison: Yeah, I think it was probably, um. It was probably the latter. You know, my own struggles to be happy for most of my life were what motivated me to wanna try and understand it.
Stephanie Harrison: I think I'm equipped with that. That particular gene where, you know, if you're struggling with something, my answer is always, okay, I'm gonna learn everything I can about this and try and master it intellectually so that I can then figure out how to bring it into my lived or emotional experience. And so, um, I certainly wasn't [00:03:00] conscious of it at the time, but that was my driving motivation.
Stephanie Harrison: And ultimately, I, I really believe that happiness is the driving goal of every human being's life. And so, to me it is. Sort of offers the chance to unwind the mysteries of the universe when you understand what matters most to us. And this highest level goal, uh, has illuminated so many things that I never would've imagined before starting out on this path.
Megan Senese: Hmm. Like that
Stephanie Harrison: is like what? Amazing. Like, you know, I think, like, to me, I guess, and you know, it's probably particularly top of mind, and I'm sure it's shaped by the context in which I've been doing this work, you know, starting in 2014 or 2013, and then seeing the changes that the world has gone through during that time.
Stephanie Harrison: But for me, like I'm, I'm eternally fascinated by the fact that I think that happiness. Or a lack thereof. Lack and a misunderstanding thereof is driving so many of our global [00:04:00] conflicts, for example. And so for me, unless we address this core root cause of happiness, we're never actually gonna be able to solve our most intractable problems like climate change or fascism, or any of these difficulties.
Stephanie Harrison: And so I, I'm trying not to be the whole, like a man with a hammer sees everything with a nail. But I do think in this case that the, the nail is. Required to be understood. And ultimately it just connects to so many of these things that feel very difficult for us to solve. And so that's ultimately what keeps me going through it.
Jennifer Ramsey: So when I was doing some pre-research for our conversation today, I saw there was a paragraph where you talk about, you know, for years you blamed yourself, you know, you were trying to figure out why can't I be happy? And you said, then one day I realized it wasn't my fault. As it turns out, everything I'd ever been told was wrong.
Jennifer Ramsey: I'm curious, do you know when that moment was when there was this switch in your brain and you're like, you had [00:05:00] your aha moment?
Stephanie Harrison: Yeah, I think, um, I think it was the first of many and the beginning maybe perhaps best described as the beginning of the. Aha process. Like maybe that's a better way to describe it.
Stephanie Harrison: Because so much of this has, for me, been about unlearning and that process that goes along with that versus, um, like learning to unlearn, I guess. And so the first aha moment was, you know. Me sobbing on my bedroom floor, having achieved everything that I thought would make me happy, and then realizing it was very much not working and despite doing my very best to live in denial about that for some time, eventually just sort of hits you I think.
Stephanie Harrison: And. That then led me to make a bunch of different choices that took my life in a completely different direction that I never would've imagined otherwise. Maybe it's like the doorway that I was able to walk through to then be able to discover some more of these things [00:06:00] that I never would've, uh, probably considered consciously otherwise.
Jennifer Ramsey: You know, you, you're the founder of the New Happy, so that, that indicates that there is an old happy, which I know that you address in your book. So can you, just for the benefit of our listeners, can you compare and contrast the old happy with the new happy so that we can set the stage, no pun intended, for, you know, what, what are we talking about here?
Jennifer Ramsey: What is this? What is this journey now that if we so choose to embrace the new happy, what does that look like?
Stephanie Harrison: Yeah, it's such an important question. So old happy is a term that I've created to sort of encapsulate a construct and a set of, uh, societal beliefs that we've been conditioned into about happiness that I.
Stephanie Harrison: Believe are at the sort of the root cause of all, of, not only our personal suffering, but as I mentioned, our collective suffering as well. And so old happy is a cultural force that stems from the institutions of individualism, capitalism, and domination. [00:07:00] And it teaches us that in order to be happy, we have to conform to the value systems of those forces.
Stephanie Harrison: And so if you think about how this applies, and I know these are, you know, like big terms that feel very divorced from our normal daily lives. But if you think about it, like think about the last goal you set for yourself and how uh, you worked so hard to get it and you pushed yourself and you burnt yourself out and you neglected your loved ones and you were like, I'm gonna get this and I'm gonna be happy, damnit.
Stephanie Harrison: And then you got there and it was like, oh no. Like, yeah, this didn't work. I need to find something else. Okay. That's part of old happy, um, this idea that we have, that I can be happy by myself. Like, and this one is very insidious. We can unpack this more if you want, because it's so much a part of the.
Stephanie Harrison: Self-help culture and sort of the mental health online discourse that I take umbrage with. But like you don't need anybody else. Just protect your peace, like abandon everybody in your community. You can just focus on what you want and what matters to you. That's [00:08:00] individualism. Domination is where it comes in.
Stephanie Harrison: Not only in the levels of societal institutions and the ways in which, um, certain people are given more access or less access to things, but in the way that that trickles down, for example, we know that happiness is fulfilled by having access to things like healthcare and having parks in your neighborhood and being in safe environments.
Stephanie Harrison: Well, who gets access to those things as well as the competitive pressure that we put upon ourselves to conform to this idea of. Perfection. And then use that perfection to judge and demean other people who do not uphold it. And so all wrapped together that's old happy. And I believe that it's making us deeply, deeply unhappy.
Jennifer Ramsey: You here? 100%. Freaking agree with that. I mean, you know, um, the perfectionism is really it. Everyone has their own thing that resonates with them. And for me it's, it's the perfectionism. So that's old, happy. And I think hearing you explain those forces, you know, capitalism, individualism, [00:09:00] uh, domination, all of those words kind of seem to describe the the world in which we are living today.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yes. And so to your point, like if we can unlearn that and figure that out, maybe there is a path forward for even those people. Who are not so nice. Yeah. In the world. The paragraph said you went on on a 10 year journey. Mm-hmm. To understand the new happy. So, and, and you boil it down to two things too, which I freaking love.
Jennifer Ramsey: So can you talk to us a little bit now about, okay, we've established what old Happy is. What does new happy look like for those of us who want the new happy, as you said,
Stephanie Harrison: it's pretty simple. Um, it's, you have to be who you are and then you have to use who you are to help other people. That's it. Oh my God,
Jennifer Ramsey: Stephanie, say that again because it's so beautifully simple and elegant and true.
Stephanie Harrison: You have to be who you are and then you have to use who you are to help other [00:10:00] people.
Megan Senese: I love the super simple construct of the two approaches, or the two-pronged approach to being happy because Jen and I talk all the time about how now in our new lives where we are busting our asses, as business owners, we are working a lot.
Megan Senese: More or in different ways. That's hard. But we're happy. And I think it's because I do feel like we're helping people in a way that before we weren't, and I have really leaned into LinkedIn in particular. And it felt very trivial for me to be like the best part of my, our job right now is that I'm on LinkedIn, but I think it's really because I've been writing from like my gut, from my, from my heart, which has then attracted people to us and to me of similarly situated people.
Megan Senese: So two weeks ago, I got a long note from somebody who is in big law. They are an associate. They wanted to be a public defender, but couldn't afford to basically take that path. And they're moving up the big law corporate ladder and they are completely [00:11:00] miserable. And it was this very, very, very, very long message.
Megan Senese: I don't know this person, but they had reached out to say like, well, what do you think I should do? And it's this very interest, like I'm a business developer essentially, right? A legal marketer. I'm not a. Life coach or career coach, but it's, it's, I think it's because of those two pieces that you're talking about, which is like, I am myself and I'm trying to help people.
Megan Senese: And I think other people are starting to see that a little bit. And so I wanted to use that example, 'cause it, it's not the first time that people have sent me notes like that and I'm really excited to then be able to turn around and give them this episode and
Stephanie Harrison: like, send them to you. What a beautiful story.
Stephanie Harrison: And you're probably the best suited to help them. They obviously felt. Through you sharing yourself and you do a beautiful job, you allowed them to feel safe and comfortable enough to be incredibly vulnerable and ask for help. And there is nothing more important than helping people. There is literally nothing.
Stephanie Harrison: It is the heart of everything. It is the secret to everything. And I [00:12:00] will, I will die on this, on this ship. And what shocks me and what continually tickles me at the same time is the fact that. Once you notice it, once you see that helping makes up everything good in our lives, you will never be able to unsee it and you'll never be able to notice how much it's taken for granted as well.
Stephanie Harrison: And so the fact that somebody felt comfortable and supported, um, simply through you showing up as yourself is just incredibly beautiful.
Jennifer Ramsey: Listening to Megan, you share that and Stephanie, it, it, it, it hits me old happy is based on external forces telling us to be happy. Whereas this new happy, the way you boiled it down, it's internal.
Jennifer Ramsey: This has, this must come internally. Mm-hmm. To understand who I am, I have to go inward to figure that out and to be able to help people. I have to inwardly figure out how do I do that? How do I share my gifts and. To unpack that a little bit, I'd, I'd really love to hear from you, Stephanie, because I think some people, you know, they hear that, okay, I gotta, I gotta figure out who I am.
Jennifer Ramsey: [00:13:00] They might be like, well, how, how do I do that? Who am I? Hmm. Yeah, right. Because we do have lots of labels, you know, how do we. Figure out who we are without labels. And I'd be curious what your, just from your point of view, how did you start to figure out who you were? And maybe there's some tips that all of us can take from that.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
Stephanie Harrison: You know, one of the really interesting things is that while it is internal, it also can only be facilitated through connection and interaction with the world. And so what I want people to get really practice with is. Is cultivating a level of meta awareness where they're able to witness and observe their inner selves as they are in interactions or experiences with the things around them.
Stephanie Harrison: And so I personally do not think that, you know, you are gonna have a great deal of luck and progress if you try to. Approach new happy by cutting yourself off from everyone in your life [00:14:00] and sitting in your room journaling about what you think you're good at and what you, who you, who you really are.
Stephanie Harrison: Like introspection is great, right? But introspection requires something to introspect on. And we are social creatures who are embedded in a context and who also are driven to express ourselves. And so what I would rather see people doing. Is going out into the world and trying something, like literally anything, it doesn't matter because again, this is one of the old happy things is I have to perfectly figure out who I am and what I can give to the world, and then I'll start instead like just go try and then come back.
Stephanie Harrison: Practice that meta awareness, turn within and go, how did that make me? Do I feel, and you can kind of ask it on a, on a scale, did it make me feel more alive or less alive? Did it make me feel more of myself or less of myself? Did it make me feel excited to keep going or drained from the experience? Like just kind of situate yourself and with that you have a new piece of data that can be [00:15:00] used to help you to take the next step forward.
Stephanie Harrison: And so for me, um, I think a lot of us are embedded with intuitions about this kind of stuff that come from our past. Experience. So when I think about my own journey, I always thought, well, I think I'd like to be a writer, or I'm attracted to the process of writing or creation in some way. And it wasn't until, and yet I never made any progress on that until I literally just started and started to practice and try to put things out there and see how it went.
Stephanie Harrison: Ultimately that's what led to everything else that that has unfolded. Um, but it never would've happened if I sat alone and thinking about who I thought I was. I have now realized that we are never gonna be free of old happy while we are living in an old happy world. Hmm. And so what I mean, and I know that can sound a little bit grim, but I don't want it to be because I think it's.
Stephanie Harrison: It's actually the invitation to this extraordinary journey that we can embark upon of seeing it as a constant process of unwinding old [00:16:00] happy in ourselves. And so the more that we can see it in that way, the easier it becomes to stop blaming ourselves to what you said earlier, Jennifer, like, you know, to stop internalizing it and seeing it as something that's wrong with me, rather than the fact that I live in a world that tells me that my worth is based upon what I achieved and if I don't achieve.
Stephanie Harrison: Something today that's better than what I did yesterday, then I should just, you know, disappear because I'm worthless. Like, that is the messaging that we've been subjected to. And so I think that our task is to unwind world happy in every moment and to seek to notice where it comes up and slowly and persistently untangle ourselves from that.
Stephanie Harrison: And so. What you just described at this impulse, like, oh, I have to, I have to figure it all out and I have to get it right, and I have to do it privately on my own. Like that's just old happy coming up, and that's totally
Jennifer Ramsey: fine. It happens to me. I am a yogi at heart and I teach yoga, and so a lot of what you're, you say, Stephanie, is, is resonant to like ancient yogic studies and, and research [00:17:00] and, and.
Jennifer Ramsey: Writings and you know, we, I, we have this saying where, you know, you know, this thing, practice makes perfect. Okay. That's on the old happy side of the equation. And we started, like, I don't, I don't wanna take credit for this. I don't think I came up with this. I think this was some, one of my. Yoga gurus, but she would always say Practice makes practice.
Stephanie Harrison: Hmm.
Jennifer Ramsey: Love that. And love, I loved that. It, it's the reframe that you're talking about, right? Like, not practice makes perfect practice makes practice and we just have to keep practicing it. Um, and I, I, and I didn't want that moment to escape because it is, like you said, it is really a never ending journey for us to try to untangle, unwind.
Jennifer Ramsey: Unencumber ourselves from these, these ways of thinking to be able to clear the path and forage forward. So practice makes practice.
Stephanie Harrison: I love that. And it reminds me like. Old. Happy is in many ways [00:18:00] trying to convince you that there's a way to escape being human in order to achieve your happiness, and it's impossible.
Stephanie Harrison: So that can't be the path that we set out upon because we're setting ourselves up for failure and, uh, any true form of happiness has to be embracing and supportive of our humanity rather than denying or shaming of it.
Jennifer Ramsey: When you feel yourself start to maybe dip your toe or step into unhappiness, what are some of the ways that you return to the new happy?
Stephanie Harrison: Just have to go out and help somebody. It's like the number one most effective strategy proven by science, backed by personal experience, and least likely to emerge at the forefront of someone's consciousness when they're struggling.
Megan Senese: I am so like kind of dumbfounded right now because a lot of what we talk about for business development, we're like, just be a giver.
Megan Senese: Just [00:19:00] give, just help. Mm-hmm. Give, that's how you'll build relationships, but now we can also add and be happy or feel a sense of happiness perhaps. One of the things as we're. As we're starting to kind of close up, I get quite, as I mentioned at the beginning of the call, I do get quite a few lawyers who have been like, I also left law, law, big law, or now I am trying to do yoga, or the people who are trying to find like bits and pieces of what's going to make them happy.
Megan Senese: As a lot of the firms the people work in are really, really deeply rooted in old, happy, legacy firms. Really hard to undo and then you kind of feel like the only person who has to like es escape in a lot of ways. One of the things that I thought might be helpful for our listeners is your, your daily podcast is also very medi, has like a meditative feel and vibe, but if someone only had like a couple of minutes or they're looking to reset, I thought we could.
Megan Senese: Either do it like now. Yeah, of
Jennifer Ramsey: course. I really would encourage people to go [00:20:00] check out the book and the newsletters and the podcast and, and the, and the podcasts are one or two minutes or three minutes, so they're so digestible and it, it really is a, a pop of happiness. I, I'll share that. Before we came on this podcast, I was having a moment, like I, I was.
Jennifer Ramsey: Just feeling a little overwhelmed and down and, and then I'm like, I gotta get my head on. So I came and I was listening to a few of your podcasts, Stephanie, and it, it just, it's, it's like a, I have my own little mantra, change, change my scenery, change my situation. Hmm. When I'm going down a path that's probably not healthy or I'm sad or whatever, and go do something different.
Jennifer Ramsey: Or help someone. Um, and so just listening, like taking the brain off of whatever festering is happening or ruminating and listening to this little pop of happiness, I, I can't even, um, encourage the listeners here to do that. So that's what I'd say. It's truly been. I like I could talk [00:21:00] to you forever.
Jennifer Ramsey: Stephanie, I, I love everything that you say. I'm a, I'm fangirling right now. Oh, thank you. That means so much to me. It's so
Stephanie Harrison: kind of you.
Megan Senese: We're ready for you, Stephanie.
Stephanie Harrison: This week as you work towards what matters to you, you will experience a mixture of successes and setbacks. You might get some positive feedback.
Stephanie Harrison: Your project could hit a new milestone. You could stay consistent with your routines, and at the same time, you might struggle with symptoms of an illness, a tough conversation with a client, or hear some bad news. Through it all. What matters most is this remembering that no matter what happens to you this week, you will always be worthy.
Stephanie Harrison: Your successes do not make you better. Your failures do not make you worse. You are always, always worthy just as you are because despite what old, happy culture told you, your [00:22:00] worthiness is not based upon your achievements. It is something inherent. You are worthy because you are alive. Nothing that happens to you and nothing that you do will ever change that.
Megan Senese: That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Sharing is caring. Send this podcast link to someone you love.