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Pastor Matt, Justin Pardee, and new guest host Stephanie Keen discuss what Jehovah really means, what Jesus really meant when he said to “turn the other cheek” (and exactly how many cheeks should be turned) and the various healings in Jesus’ ministry. Sandals Church worship leader Melody Workman chimes in with what challenged her most in Luke 7 and how she’s dealt with guilt and shame in the past after growing up in the church.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Be just be you. Don't try to be something else. You're awesome.
Stephanee Schaefer:Yeah. You're funny.
Matt Brown:When you try to be something else, you're lame. Oh.
Justin Pardee:This was going so great for me until just, like, right before you said that part.
Stephanee Schaefer:How did that
Justin Pardee:make you feel, Justin? You know what? I'm fine. Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 27 of the Debrief Podcast.
Justin Pardee:I'm your host, Justin Party, and I'm hanging out today with Melody Workman.
Melody Workman:Hey, everybody.
Justin Pardee:Melody Workman, as you can tell just from that, that was you have a very nice voice. It's a professional
Melody Workman:Hey, thanks.
Justin Pardee:Stage singing voice. She's, one of our worship leaders here, and you've led worship across all of our campuses, I think now. Right? Yep. I'm kind of a little bit jealous of that.
Justin Pardee:I have obviously, I do hosting on main campus here. I've gone up to Woodcrest and hosted a few times there. I visited East Valley on the weekends, but I've not ever been on stage to
Melody Workman:It's a great spot.
Justin Pardee:To do hosting. I gotta I gotta get up on stage to actually host out there at East Valley. I'm a little bit jealous that you've Yeah. You beat me to that level. Well, hey, guys.
Justin Pardee:Thank you so much for, all the support you've been giving us with this podcast. Man, it's been really exciting, even to just be here at the, first handful of episodes, and, we're super excited. So one of the things that was so fantastic about this last weekend is pastor Matt just shared with us from Luke chapter seven. Mhmm. And he he shared this awesome story about this woman who came forward.
Justin Pardee:It really interrupted this dinner party and just responded to who Jesus was. Really cool weekend. Man, we saw so many people come forward and commit their lives to Jesus. But aside from all that, Melody, I wanted to have you come on the show and and just chat a little bit about, from the message, what part of that really stuck out and challenged you the most?
Melody Workman:Yeah. This is one of my top three favorite stories, with Jesus because, if you look at just the day and age in which he lived, women were, at best second class citizens. And so Jesus has a way of turning that around all the time. And so here, He is at this religious elitist dinner party.
Justin Pardee:So just
Melody Workman:kind of imagine like what that was like. Yeah. And the message calls her the town harlot. Like, she walks in. And if you're washing someone's feet, you know, with your tears, you're sobbing.
Melody Workman:Right? Right. And then
Justin Pardee:you're dry with your hair. Windfree ugly cry.
Melody Workman:Yeah. How awkward is that for everybody? You know, like, who let her in? What do we do? And Jesus just sits in that awkwardness, and lets her be who she is.
Melody Workman:And he invites our authenticity. And in that moment, she was so overcome with her emotion of just, he knows me, and he sees me and he loves me. And Jesus just let everybody sit in that moment with him. And it's fascinating how Jesus handles people. That's why I love him.
Melody Workman:So that that just imagining the scene, and then just how Jesus responds to this woman who's, you know, the lowest of the low Mhmm. Just makes me go, gosh. That's why he's so great. So I
Justin Pardee:love him. When you imagine I I love that thing you I love I think that's such a great thing to do when we're reading through these stories of Jesus is to really just try and imagine
Melody Workman:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:What that was like and what that moment was, and even kind of, like, put ourselves into the story a little bit to try and figure out what do we have for this. If you were to do that, where do you see yourself fitting in that story?
Melody Workman:Well, that's partly what makes me sad is because as much as I would want to be in my heart, like her cheerleader, you know, like, yeah, this is I feel like just knowing my background, kind of being raised, you know, with legalism, I would have been sitting at the table saying, you know, can someone get her out? Because like, we're with Jesus, and, and I'm important, you know, and I kind of that stabs me to kind of like, admit that. I've grown a lot, but I still think in that moment, now looking into how to set, Oh my gosh, how amazing is this? But kind of being honest and saying, yeah, like, when awkward moments happen now, sometimes I'm not okay to just sit in them and be awkward and say, what's Jesus trying to teach me right now? What's he doing right now?
Melody Workman:As much as I'm like, this isn't supposed to be happening. You know?
Justin Pardee:Totally. Okay. Let me ask you maybe a pretty intense question here. One of I think one of the key differences between this woman who comes in and really just is authentic. Right?
Justin Pardee:She's worse being Jesus. She's not trying to hide anything. One of the differences between her and all the other religious people at the party was it's just that authenticity, that willingness to be okay, with not having it all together and letting everybody see that in the moment.
Melody Workman:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:So you kinda mentioned this. You grew up in the church. Right? I grew up in the church too. Your dad was a pastor?
Melody Workman:Yep.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So growing up in the church, do you do you have the pressure or do you try and, like, either ignore or hide things like guilt and shame, failure, those kinds of things?
Melody Workman:Yeah. Well, the way I grew up was a church that really kind of prized external behaviors as markers of your Christianity.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Melody Workman:So you were super Christian if you did these things. And you weren't super Christian if you didn't. And so you stroke, you know, I was always striving to be what was expected of me. And as a pastor's kid, it was definitely expected of me to do certain things. And so I got to a place, though, in high school, where I just felt dead in my soul, Because I was really just stressing up playing the part doing what I was supposed to do.
Melody Workman:But not having a lot of safe places to say, I don't even know if I want this. I don't even know if I believe this.
Justin Pardee:Totally.
Melody Workman:And I don't know what to do about that. And God took me on a journey of several years of discovering who He was really, and who I was to Him. And it had nothing to do with who my parents were, what my talents were. It was all to do with the fact that He loved me enough to send His son to die for me. And that alone was what defined my value.
Melody Workman:There's a verse in Zephaniah three seventeen that says, God's
Justin Pardee:my Hey, Zephaniah. Is that even a real
Melody Workman:You have to cross through, like, cop like in the Old Testament to find it. You know? You hold your breath while you let go. He says, God is a mighty warrior who saves, and he sings over you. And one of the one of the commentaries I read said, just imagine what God's song for you sounds like, like, what's his melody song?
Melody Workman:And all of a sudden, God wasn't this angry dictator, who was constantly disappointed in me, he was a loving father who, just as I would rock my children to sleep when they were little, has that kind of affection for me. And on that journey to discovering that's who God really was, just changed the whole trajectory of my life, really.
Justin Pardee:Dude, that's so crazy. I really feel like you are almost like writing out my stories. You share that. Mean, I grew up going to church. My mom worked for the church that was there, and we were literally at church, not just on Sundays, but every single day of the week.
Melody Workman:Every day.
Justin Pardee:All the time. And really similar. I mean, I remember being a young kid, early elementary school, going up on stage and hosting and welcoming every welcoming everybody to church, which is, like, literally the thing that I do right But then also just being like, I'm not just, like, learning the words to say or, like, hearing all other old guys, what they would say Yeah. How they would pray. And just, like, learning church is a place where you go, and it's a people that you're around where you say the right things.
Justin Pardee:And if you do that, for me as a little kid, everyone will, you know, like, Yeah. Applaud you and be like, oh, Justin, your future is gonna be so great. And then, like, what's so challenging to me about this lady is it's so hard for me to get really vulnerable and be authentic. I mean, I'm just thinking when when Lindy and I, when we first got married and things were not working out the way that we thought they were gonna be. Right?
Justin Pardee:I felt like a little bit confused. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. But I just I I was I felt totally ashamed of that.
Justin Pardee:Right? That our marriage wasn't totally amazing because we were Christians. You know? We both grew up in church. And I didn't wanna tell anyone.
Justin Pardee:I didn't want to let the our community group people know. I didn't wanna let my friends know because I felt like, yeah. I'm not supposed to be Mhmm. This guy who's got issues in his life or have failure, man. So I I love that lady's willingness to just go out there in front of all these church people
Melody Workman:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:And then just have this moment with Jesus. And that's so intense. Now I know you a little bit, and we've talked before. And you've told me that one of the things that you kinda really wrestle and struggle with is just the issue of anxiety.
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:And I feel like there's just such a stigma of, like, shame and hush-hushness almost a little bit that goes with anxiety now, and nobody really wants to talk about that. Is that an example of an area where it can be really hard to just be real and vulnerable like this lady?
Melody Workman:Yeah. I mean, mainly because when you grow up, you know, getting awards for memorizing bible verses, you know, I won a free week to camp because I memorized so many verses. Yeah. You know, know, who's super Christian. So I know, trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean on onto your own understanding.
Melody Workman:I know that verse by heart. So what's wrong with me? When I don't trust him? Like, what's my problem? Like, why don't I trust him?
Melody Workman:And I think, I think God uses the hard things of this life to reveal to us what our core sin. I mean, if I'm just gonna be honest, what our core sin is what our core struggles are, but then he meets you in those places. And so mind being anxiety. I'm going to cry. Sorry.
Melody Workman:But when my husband had a heart attack, and in the middle of the night, and I felt fear like I'd never known before. It was the really hard place in my life where Jesus met me and said, This is why you can trust me because you're your most scared right now. And I'm most present with you. You know, so it's nothing to be ashamed of. I get fear.
Melody Workman:And kind of on the other side of that, I really started to read scripture a bit deeper. And I went to the Garden Of Gethsemane, where Jesus was afraid, like he was battling anxiety, he knew what was before him. And it was just, again, that reminder of I get what you're struggling with. I get it. I felt it.
Melody Workman:I've walked in that place. So you don't have to be ashamed. You don't have to feel like you're not a good Christian if this is your struggle. Actually, what you need to do is be as honest about it as you can be real about it. And so what I've started to do is I've started to really practice the discipline of gratitude.
Melody Workman:Because, and this is a daily thing for me, because I find that when I'm consciously focusing on and meditating on the goodness of God in my life, I root out the seeds of anxiety that will just spring up like, something bad can happen. And in two minutes in my mind, I've gone to the worst possible scenario. And like, I'm in a fetal position on the floor, you know. And so I have to consciously change what I think first. And that's where knowing God's word is huge, because I can feel something and it can be so real to me because I feel it so deeply.
Melody Workman:But then when I go to Philippians, and it says, Don't be anxious about anything. Like, don't be anxious about anything. And this is from Paul, who went through some pretty crappy stuff, really hard stuff, you know, and he's saying it. So I'm saying, Okay, God, this is what your word says. So even though this is what I feel, I know that this is what's true.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Melody Workman:So this is what I'm gonna do. This is how I'm gonna choose to live.
Justin Pardee:Well, thank you for being so real with us on that. Really appreciate that. I feel like what you pointed on is really one of the great struggles of Christianity, which is just from learning to trust that God doesn't really expect anything from us
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Other than just like us, you know, and our willingness to say, this is who I am right now. And maybe I've been following Jesus for six years or twenty years or even six weeks, and I feel weird that I'm feeling this way or doing these things, but this is who I am. Yep. And I'm gonna be real about that because that's the place where, God can do something really incredible. And what I love is when the when the lady in Luke seven has that moment and she's really real, and she's not just real with God and herself, but she's also real with others.
Justin Pardee:You know, like, right in front of that moment, and it becomes an opportunity for other people around her to be blessed. And if yeah. As we can pursue being real, man, it's an opportunity for others to to connect and engage. Because I think so many people, you know, have that attitude about church that you and I grew up with, which is where, you know, we've gotta be
Melody Workman:That have it together.
Justin Pardee:Yep. Exactly. Church is not a place for people with anxiety or Right. Addictions or real life marital issues.
Melody Workman:That's why I think when she, you know, comes up to Jesus, and she just like goes over the top with her gratitude for what he's done for her. I think that moment, felt complete freedom.
Justin Pardee:Yeah, totally.
Melody Workman:Just total freedom. I don't care what anyone thinks. I don't care if people know what I've done. I don't care if people know where I got the money to buy this.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Melody Workman:And, you know, and that's what it is to trust God. That's what it is to just love him. It's complete freedom.
Justin Pardee:Totally. Man, so cool. Well, thank you for being on the Debrief. Thanks for
Melody Workman:I loved it.
Justin Pardee:Sharing your experience with the message. Really appreciate having you on, and maybe we'll, have you back on sometime. Thanks.
Melody Workman:Thanks, Justin. Yep.
Justin Pardee:Well, hey, guys. We're gonna jump into the q and a time with pastor Matt in just a second, but I wanted to interrupt really quickly and just say thank you so much for all the feedback, for all the subscriptions to the podcast. I mean, we are only been doing this for a couple weeks, and you guys are already so so cool. I wanted to ask one tiny little request, and that is, would you consider going to the iTunes podcast directory, finding the debrief, and giving us a rating and leaving a review? That'll, let the iTunes folks know that this is a real show.
Justin Pardee:And, when people go to iTunes and they type in Sandals Church in the debrief, it will help them find the podcast. So if you would take just, like, two or three minutes and give us a rating, it'll definitely help other people get connected to the debrief podcast, and that would be super huge. So we'll appreciate it. Alright, guys. Let's jump into some q and a with pastor Matt.
Justin Pardee:Alright, pastor Matt. Hey. We've got a brand new guest sitting with us on the couch for q and a time. Welcome, Stephanie. Yes.
Stephanee Schaefer:Thanks. I'm glad to be here.
Matt Brown:I'm a little nervous about her being here, but we can move forward.
Justin Pardee:Well, get there. She was on the podcast last week. You did Uh-huh. Well enough that we brought you back.
Stephanee Schaefer:Well, thanks, guys.
Melody Workman:Feel
Justin Pardee:Sorry to Griffin and Fredo if that made you feel slighted Yes.
Matt Brown:For
Justin Pardee:not stepping up into the q and a section. We got some questions for you. Ready to jump straight into those?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking about Luke seven and some Well,
Justin Pardee:you just preached Luke seven, which is awesome. And I think I was looking at the numbers. 289 people this weekend made decisions to recommit Jesus.
Matt Brown:That's incredible. Two what did you say? Two what?
Justin Pardee:289.
Matt Brown:209 people. That's amazing.
Justin Pardee:Full disclosure, I'm not very good at math. So that number might not be accurate.
Matt Brown:Hints episode zero. Okay. Go ahead.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So we got a couple questions coming back all the way to Luke five. That's where we're gonna jump in. Wow. This question comes from Alex, and she's in Lindsay's group.
Justin Pardee:Here's what she wrote in. You used the term Jehovah Rapha during the did I say that right? Did I pronounce it? Alright. I looked on Google before reading this question.
Justin Pardee:You used the term Jehovah Rapha during the healing service when you preached on Luke five. Alex grew up Jehovah's Witness, and she wants to know what that name means. What does Jehovah Rapha
Matt Brown:mean? Well, Jehovah is actually the wrong name. So there's no Jeh in the Greek excuse me, in the Hebrew. There's no So it's but the Germans when they translated it turned the into So it's really Jehovah. So Okay.
Matt Brown:Jehovah Jireh. And so Jehovah Jireh. So excuse me. So it's it's just it's just a mispronunciation, but it's just this kinda stuck. So Jehovah witnesses, they use that word.
Matt Brown:So it's the idea is Yahweh, God, the the name of God, which it's really not a specific it's not the name of God. It's a descriptive name of God. So it's Jehovah God descriptive? Yeah. No.
Matt Brown:Yahweh is the name God. And then Rapha is the description. So God the who? God the healer. And so so oftentimes, the way that the Bible describes God is based upon what he's doing.
Matt Brown:And so there's there's many there's a great book out there called the names of God. I can't think of the author's name right now, but we can add that on the Sure. We can. The podcast later. But it's a great name, and and it's basically just descriptions of who God is.
Matt Brown:Like, Jesus' name actually means the Lord saves. So Yahweh saves, and that's what his name means.
Stephanee Schaefer:So On the Jehovah witnesses note, my mom has actually been asking me this for a while to ask you, so I'm gonna take advantage of that now. Can you kind of explain what the difference is between, like, what Jehovah witnesses believe and what, like
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, there's there's multiple issues between Jehovah witnesses and what's considered acceptable Christianity. So even within Christianity, right, we have we have disagreements. But Jehovah witnesses, you know, their founder way back when, a lot of a lot of the cults that started today started in America during a time when people were illiterate in America and you had traveling preachers and they were running around. And so this guy, their their religion was founded with this guy who was running around saying that he he had the secret, like, secret understanding of of scripture.
Matt Brown:And so, teaching is that Jesus Christ is not God, that he is an angel. So, Jesus Christ is created and as Christians, we reject that. We believe that Christ is eternal. He has always existed. He has always existed with the Father.
Matt Brown:And so, we don't believe that there was ever a time where Jesus was not, We believe that Jesus was, is, and is to come. So, He's the eternal one. And so, they reject the deity of Christ. And so, for us as Christians, that's no good, because we worship Christ as the Savior. Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Matt Brown:He is God's son. So just like my son, Ethan, is a human being, God's son is divine. Jesus Christ is divine. He is of the substance of the father. He is one in the same of the father and yet distinct because the trinitarian understanding of God is father, son, and holy spirit being three distinct persons of the same God.
Matt Brown:And we don't ultimately understand everything that that entails, but no Christian organization recognizes Jehovah Witnesses as anything other than a cult. They're good people, they mean well. I think they're faithful. We should admire them for their diligence to serve God and to knock on our doors and spread what they believe is to be the gospel. But what they believe was condemned hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
Matt Brown:And so, it's just really, really sad that they're misguided by a spiritual teacher and a spiritual leader who really was spreading false information. And that's why it's so important, you know, where do you go to church? Do other Christian churches accept your church as, you know, we don't all agree 100%, but no Christian church would say that Jehovah witnesses are Christian. Like I said, they're good people. I think they're trying to serve God.
Matt Brown:They're trying to do the best that they can. And we need to honor their effort, but we disagree passionately about what they believe and teach about Jesus. So and we could actually do a whole podcast on the deity of Christ and I need to be academically prepared for that. But there's reasons, there's specific reasons. And so for the early church, the problem was not, is Jesus God?
Matt Brown:The problem was, was he a man? And so that's a whole another discussion and debate. And so early on, they struggled believing that he was a man at all. So like the temptations that we talked about a couple of weeks, people struggled with, you know, was Christ really tempted because He's God and God's not tempted. And so it's like, so yeah, He was tempted because not only is He God, but He's also man.
Matt Brown:He's the God man. So I don't know if that answers everything about your question, but we could do a specific podcast on on that. And, you know, the basic thing I would say is, you know, don't ridicule or put down Jehovah Witnesses, love them, care for them, and they're being obedient to the scriptures as they understand it. The problem is the tower society is not a recognized translators of the bible. We don't know who they are, what they are.
Matt Brown:We don't know where they got their degrees from. And they're not honest in their interpretation of scripture. That's why Jehovah witnesses have their own bible that nobody else uses. They create scripture as they need it to be. And so anywhere where the bible says Jesus is worshiped, they're gonna change that word.
Matt Brown:Somehow they're gonna twist it and turn it because Jesus is clearly worshiped in scriptures. And right, that's a violation because we're only supposed to worship God. And so here here's what I would say to people. I think this is for me what settles it is the Bible in the old testament is specifically clear that God will save us. God will do it.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So if Jesus Christ is a created being, God didn't do it. You say, well, you know, he created well, yeah, but there's no there's no sacrifice there on God's part because he's God. He can create as many sons as he wants to. Right?
Matt Brown:I mean, that's who he is. And so there's no sacrifice there. The uniqueness of Jesus Christ, the one, the only, the one begotten Son of God, there was pain from the Father on the cross. There was a suffering that took place there because God in the human flesh, in Jesus is dying on that cross and God did save us. And so the Bible says God will not share his glory.
Matt Brown:He shares glory with Jesus. He honors Jesus. He says the church is to worship Jesus. The Holy Spirit points to Jesus. And so everything is centered around Christ.
Matt Brown:Philippians two verses five through 11, a great place to look at who Jesus was, what he did, and ultimately, he has the name above all names. He is to be worshiped by everyone. And that's because Jesus Christ is God. So
Justin Pardee:I don't know if this is relevant, but I just googled and saw that Prince is Jehovah's Witness. So they have that going for them.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I I don't know that Prince is really anything, and that's not to mock, you know, his eternal beliefs. But I certainly don't think that, based upon his career that he's an example of a Jehovah Witness, at least one that they want to celebrate.
Melody Workman:Fair enough.
Matt Brown:I saw Purple Rain.
Justin Pardee:It scarred me forever. How awesome would that be though? Like, if you did like, if somebody comes and knocks on your door and it's two people and one of them is Prince, that would be awkward.
Stephanee Schaefer:I mean, that'll be weird.
Matt Brown:I know some people will
Stephanee Schaefer:be really excited about that.
Justin Pardee:But Yes. Exactly. Dude, that is what Snapchat was made for. Okay. Here we go.
Justin Pardee:Another another question. This came from Ryan who is in Jesse's group, and he asked again, this is after the healing service that we did from Luke chapter five. He asked, did Jesus ever not heal someone who came to him?
Matt Brown:No. In every circumstance, Jesus healed everyone. And so Luke, especially, right, the doctor. So he's a doctor writing. He he makes it a point to say that Jesus healed everyone who came to him.
Matt Brown:He touched every person that came to him. I mean, Jesus Christ is the one and only. So healings take place in the church, but no one's Jesus. And so, you know, even even the miracles that take place, say in the book of acts, those are in there, not because they were everyday encounters or experiences, but because they were miracles. They were highlights of the early church.
Matt Brown:And so Jesus Christ has the unique authority to heal. He doesn't have to ask God for the ability to heal. He just simply decides. Whatever decision he renders, right? Happens.
Matt Brown:And so when he speaks healing in somebody's eyes, there is an instance where he spits in a guy's eyes and says, can you see? And the guy's like, it's little fuzzy. And so, he does it again and then the guy can see fully. But I don't think that's an issue of Jesus not healing him. I think it's an issue of getting us to be real when we don't experience the miracle that we want.
Matt Brown:He's saying, can you see? And the guy could have lied, but he was honest. He said, no. I can't see yet fully. I see shapes, but I don't see clearly.
Matt Brown:And so then Christ touches him again and he's healed. So, and again, I mean, Jesus is God. There's nothing that's too difficult for him. He can do everything. And that's what we need to understand the nature of God.
Matt Brown:Going back to the last question, who is Jesus? He's the creator of all things. He has made all things. So Colossians says, all things were made by Him, through Him and for Him. And they are sustained because of Him.
Matt Brown:And so there's this real clear picture that Jesus isn't just a guy. He's not just an angel. Or as Jehovah Witnesses, you know, believe maybe in, I believe it's Proverbs eight, the wisdom, the creation of wisdom. He is the unique son of God. And so Hebrews, and like I said, we can have a further talk about that sometime.
Matt Brown:But Hebrews points that out, that Jesus is no angel, that he's greater than Moses. He's greater than David. He's greater than any of these people. And in Hebrews, they actually compare him to an angel, which is what's so sad about, you know, Jehovah Witnesses. They say, well, he's an angel.
Matt Brown:Hebrews one is all about the fact that he's not. Mhmm. He's more than that. He's to be worshiped. He's to be honored.
Matt Brown:He's to be, you know, esteemed above all things. And so Hebrews one is one of the most powerful chapters related to the deity of Christ. So Jesus Christ can do it all. He can do it all. Like today, in today's discussion, we talked about, you know, the woman, the sinful woman.
Matt Brown:He's he just said, you are forgiven. He just spoke it and it is. He is the righteous judge. He can speak forgiveness on whom he speaks forgiveness. We are guaranteed that when we come to him by faith that we can be forgiven.
Matt Brown:But Christ can do whatever he wants. He's God. He and and not only can he do it, but he paid the price. He's already paid the price for all sin. So, yeah, Jesus Christ, I mean, we have no idea who he is.
Matt Brown:So and hopefully we'll get get to it today. And then I wanna talk about Jesus healing the young man that was dead in Luke seven. It terrified people. Like we think of these miracles as, oh, wow. And in the ancient world, they thought, oh, crap.
Matt Brown:This is scary because when God moves, things get really scary.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So there there was a time, right, where Jesus went home to Nazareth where his hometown was.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:And then say he I kept trying to remember if he couldn't do miracle there
Matt Brown:or He says he didn't do many miracles. So he did some miracles, but he just got so frustrated with a lack of faith because he was you know, the Bible says that a prophet is not recognized in his own hometown. And so they still have this idea of Jesus as a young boy, Jesus as a child, Jesus as the son of Mary and Joseph. And and they're like, who do you think you are? And they didn't accept him as God.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Even his own brother, James. His half brother James, who writes the the book of James in the Bible and becomes the bishop of the church in Jerusalem. You know, he didn't get it until afterwards. His own mom, Mary, who, right, was gave birth as a virgin, had an angel speak to her.
Matt Brown:Even she didn't understand everything that Jesus is. I don't know if that answers your question. You're, like, going into deep, deep thought. I could tell.
Justin Pardee:Well, I'm trying to trying to keep up with you, dude. This is good stuff. And I'm also sympathizing with everyone who's driving and listening in the car for Yeah. Sure. When you get these good things.
Justin Pardee:So maybe the note of advice for listening to the Debrief Podcast is to not be driving, have a pad of paper out so you can capture a quick note.
Matt Brown:Or just listen to it to a couple of times.
Justin Pardee:Oh, even better. Yeah. Repeat viewers.
Matt Brown:Yes. That's awesome.
Stephanee Schaefer:Listeners, really.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Repeat listeners. Maybe watch the little bar go
Stephanee Schaefer:across, but
Justin Pardee:I think that'd be
Stephanee Schaefer:very interesting.
Justin Pardee:Fair enough. Okay. Here's a here's another one. So we're gonna jump over to Luke chapter six. And this was basically last weekend's message.
Justin Pardee:So this came from Erin in Barry's groups, and this is Erin with an e r I n. So I'm gonna assume this is a lady. Here's Luke chapter six twenty nine. If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also.
Justin Pardee:And you talked through this with the challenging teachings from Luke chapter six. Here's Aaron's question. How many cheeks should one turn? Is there a limit? How much rudeness and abuse do we need to tolerate?
Matt Brown:Right. Well, I would say God gave you two cheeks. So, you know, take it twice and then move on. And so the issue is if we have abusive people in our life, and we have people who continue to insult, hurt, and destroy, you know, God says you gotta love the monster, but you don't have to stay in the cage with him. And so what I would say is, part of being a healthy Christian is to realize I need to not engage in these people who just continually hurt me.
Matt Brown:I can love them, I can pray for them, I can wish them well, I can be as kind as I possibly can. But there's people in my life where I've learned they're just not nice people. They're just not kind people. And so, you know, I mean, sometimes you have to deal with them because they're at work. Right?
Matt Brown:And you're stuck.
Justin Pardee:You invited them onto the podcast as a new guest host.
Melody Workman:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Hey. Sorry, Stephen.
Matt Brown:Yeah. That was that was kinda rude. That was one slap. Maybe you'll turn the cheek.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Modeling right here on
Matt Brown:the moment.
Justin Pardee:One of the good things I
Matt Brown:can Modeling insults. That's good. You're a good example of what not to
Justin Pardee:do. Alright.
Matt Brown:So so so again, God's not asking you the teaching of Christ is not to be unhealthy or to be unsafe. And so what I would do is I would go to a pastor, go to one of our soul care ministers and say, here's my situation. And to really, really seek counsel because you may need to get out of a relationship. And we certainly don't want you to be beat down. And so the idea of, you know, the taking of the coat is that, you know, the teaching of the day was if somebody asks for your coat, what you did is you offered them your inner tunic because, you know, that was the right thing to do, but your coat was the thing that kept you safe.
Justin Pardee:When you say inner tunic, what do
Matt Brown:you mean? Well, had two tunics, you had your inner and outer. So there was two that people wore. So kind of like our undershirts and then our jackets.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:So when Jesus says, when somebody asks for your inner jacket, give them your outer one as well, give them both. And so basically, that's where the saying, give the shirt off your back comes from. That's where it comes It's idea of be generous when people have needs. And so a lot of times what we do, the Christian thing to do is to not make eye contact with somebody in need. So do what you can do to be as generous as you can possibly be.
Matt Brown:And don't do it just because of their ability to repay. And so Jesus talks about that in Luke six. Like, we're willing to lend money to people that we know can get back. That's what banks do. Banks lend money based upon your credit history and your ability to pay back.
Matt Brown:As Christians, we gotta be generous and just and just not care about people not being able to pay us back. Just say, look, man, I wanna bless you.
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So I I I think Aaron with an e needs to exercise wisdom in that area. And if you're in abusive relationships, you know, you need to love them from afar. That's what I would say.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. Yeah. And that goes back to last week even when you were defining what love for us was. So if you missed last week's episode, it was really awesome when you talked about how Jesus defined love really as wishing others well.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Wishing others well and showing kindness. That was awesome.
Justin Pardee:I was trying to highlight that I was paying attention to
Matt Brown:Thank you. I'm glad that you're listening.
Stephanee Schaefer:Yes. Good job, Justin.
Justin Pardee:Do what I can. Thanks, guys. My cheeks are wide open for compliments. I will I will continue to take them as much as we can. Okay.
Justin Pardee:We got let's jump over here to Luke chapter seven because I was actually listening to you preach this morning during the 08:30 service here at Main Campus.
Stephanee Schaefer:I'm trying to rack up just lots of points right now.
Justin Pardee:That's what's happening. Yeah. Exactly.
Matt Brown:I'm glad you listen when you come to
Justin Pardee:church.
Matt Brown:I do. I do. Since you do get paid to come.
Justin Pardee:That is that part is true. So in all fairness, let's listen, multiple times. So here here's the question that I have. And you actually said that you would wanna talk about this because there's, again, so much going on in Luke chapter seven that you couldn't cover. One of the things that's really interesting is this conversation that Jesus has with the followers of John the Baptist who, is Jesus' cousin.
Justin Pardee:And then earlier on, he's right? He baptizes Jesus. Yeah. And I think calls him the son like I said, declares this is the son of
Matt Brown:God. John says, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Justin Pardee:Right. So now here we Yeah. Go
Matt Brown:John the Baptist says that in the gospel.
Justin Pardee:John John the Baptist says. Yeah. So now here we are in Luke chapter seven verse eighteen, nineteen, right in there. And the disciples of John the Baptist told John about everything Jesus was doing. So John called for two of his disciples, and he sent them to the Lord to ask him, are you the Messiah we've been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else?
Justin Pardee:Why is why is John asking this question in light of their relationship and everything else that he's already declared publicly about Jesus?
Matt Brown:Yeah. And the reality is because he's you know, I mean, as amazing as John is, right? Jesus describes John as the most significant person in the world. He's the most significant person in the world. It's absolutely amazing.
Matt Brown:So, but then he says, but the least person in the kingdom is greater than John. So, John the Baptist is still a human being and he still struggles. So so this is what I would say. Why is John questioning? So the gospel of Mark tells us, not Luke, but Mark tells us he's in prison.
Matt Brown:So John's in prison. Why? Because he spoke to the immoral relationship that King Herod has. So King Herod has has a sexually immoral relationship with somebody else's wife. It's immoral, it's wrong, it's terrible.
Matt Brown:And John called him on it, and so he ends up in prison and ultimately loses his head. So here's John, he served God his whole life. He's enjoyed, you know, some popularity. He's seen, you know, a spiritual revival take place in Israel. But now he's locked up and he's in prison.
Matt Brown:And this is the same way that many of us are going to doubt Jesus. So what happens? He's followed God. He's been faithful to God. Now he's in prison and life is not going the way that he thought it would with the Messiah in his life.
Matt Brown:And so he's questioning. Why? Because Jews believed almost almost to the man, to the woman, that when the Messiah returned, he would lead an army. He would be a military victor. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So he wasn't just gonna forgive sins, he was going to conquer sin. He was going to conquer death. And so what they were looking for was this great combatant, this great military leader that would unite unify the tribes of Israel, would bring everybody together, would hurl off Roman oppression. And so there was all this understanding that went with being the Messiah. And that's the reason why every rebellion leader in the time and age of Jesus, every single rebellious leader claimed to be the Messiah.
Matt Brown:It didn't matter who they were. Jesus wasn't the only one that received messianic attention. Literally, there were hundreds of people that said, I'm the Messiah. I'm the Messiah. And they would rally people to them and try to fight Rome.
Matt Brown:And Jesus says, look, that's not why I'm here. And he actually rejects that. So remember they try to make him king in the triumphal entry. They try to anoint him as king, put him on the donkey. They said, look, you're gonna be our king and you're gonna take over.
Matt Brown:And the Bible says Jesus just leaves. And so, I mean, part of the reason, I would say the major reason that Jews reject Jesus is because he didn't throw off Roman oppression. He didn't bring worldwide peace. Mhmm. And that's what they believe the Messiah would do.
Matt Brown:And if you talk to a Jew today, why don't you believe in Jesus? And they will tell you because there's not peace on earth. The Messiah will bring peace on earth. And we don't have peace on earth yet. Right.
Matt Brown:And so what they don't understand is that the prophecies that are spoken about Jesus speak about his coming and his return. And so some rabbis decided that there would be two messiahs. One who suffered and died, and one who conquered and reigned. We as Christians know Jesus is both. He's both the suffering servant, and he's the ruler king.
Matt Brown:He's both. He came as the lamb and he will return as the lion. And so John's wrestling with that. I don't understand why I'm in prison. I'm in prison unjustly.
Matt Brown:I thought if the Messiah was here, right? I'm gonna be out of prison. Herod's gonna be the one that's locked up in jail because the Messiah is gonna bring peace. And so he's wrestling with, if you're really God, why aren't these things happening? And every Christian's gonna get to that place.
Matt Brown:Why do I have cancer? Why am I going through a divorce? Why did I lose my job? Why are my finances a mess? Because Jesus Christ has promised to fix all things when he returns.
Matt Brown:And so oftentimes, we interpret all the promises of God is happening here and now in our life. Some of the promises of God will be fulfilled in your life. But all of the promises of God will be fulfilled when He returns. Sin will be done with, death will be done with. The lion will lie with the lamb.
Matt Brown:The little kid will put their hand in the cave of the snake, the what do you call it? Snake den. We'll put his hand in the snake den and and the cobra or the adder won't bite the child. These are the things that we have to look forward to when all creation is made right. And so John is confused.
Matt Brown:I don't understand. If you are God, why isn't there peace? Why isn't there peace on earth? Why why am I in jail? Why is suffering still happening?
Matt Brown:And so Jesus says, go back and tell John, what do you see? What do you see? Because why? Luke knows who Jesus is. John doesn't, but Luke knows.
Matt Brown:And he wants the author to know. He wants Theophilus to know Jesus Christ was the one we're looking for. Why? The blind are healed. The paralyzed are healed.
Matt Brown:The dead have been raised. People are being fed. The gospel is being preached. All of these things are happening. So John, you know who I am.
Matt Brown:Now I'm not doing what you want me to do, but you know who I am. And the Bible says, you know, ultimately John gets his head cut off and Jesus is really broken about It really affects him. Because oftentimes God's servants die. That's just the reality and it's terrible and it's awful.
Justin Pardee:And just to clarify, Theophilus, you said Theophilus is the guy who's gonna be receiving the letter
Matt Brown:of Luke. Yeah. So the book is written to Theophilus, which means lover of God. Philos is lover and Theo is God, so lover of God. And yeah.
Matt Brown:So he's writing this letter to him to convince him of who you believe. Right. So John is wavering in his faith, but Luke wants us not to waver. Luke knows exactly who he is. And we're headed for Right.
Matt Brown:For Luke nine, which is a powerful chapter. Who do you say that I am? So the disciples, just think about it, Peter, James, John, the two Judases, Bartholomew, Thaddeus, all this, they're they're still not convinced. They they don't know exactly who Jesus is. And so it's not until the confession of Christ in Luke nine where Peter says, you're the Christ, the son of the living God.
Matt Brown:So we need to give these people grace. We understand the outcome. But Luke is building the case. This is who Jesus is. He's letting us learn through the eyes of those who learned who Jesus was.
Matt Brown:He's letting Theophilus grow in his understanding of who's Christ is so he can know. And so John and I I I think it speaks to, right, the accuracy and the truth of scripture. How can we trust scripture? Well, why on earth would they have John the Baptist doubt? Why why would you put that in there if you're trying to make the case that Jesus is God?
Matt Brown:Like like if I was writing it, I'd be like, John the Baptist said, absolutely, and I'll die knowing. And that's not what the Bible says. The Bible says even the mightiest of faith, people the mightiest of faith like John, even they wavered, even they struggled. So because Jesus doesn't fit the picture of what he thought of what people thought throughout history he should look like.
Justin Pardee:Man, it's really it's interesting to hear you talk about this. It's it's kinda like that the faith that John is it's like he's acting out in faith earlier saying, I really believe this is about Jesus, And then kind of secretly being like, I really hope Are we sure? Yeah. Like, I really hope this is right.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And and I think if we're honest, we're all gonna find ourselves there. Right. You know? You know, when we're single and maybe we're not getting married or we're married and we're having trouble or we were married and we wanna have kids and those things aren't happening.
Matt Brown:Right? I believe in God and then it's like, ah, you know, help me believe God, which one guy says. And we all so faith, right? We're all moving from I know to I hope, right? And faith is right in the middle of there.
Matt Brown:And God has asked us to have faith. And so, faith is not knowledge. It's hope. And not like, I hope, but like hope, Substantial hope that I can bet my life on and my soul and my eternal destiny.
Justin Pardee:Awesome.
Stephanee Schaefer:You mentioned you wanted to talk more about the story of the boy who got brought back to life
Matt Brown:in 1977. It's absolutely significant. So this this story parallels the story of Elijah. And so some of the languages similar Elijah is in the old Yeah. Elijah is in old testament.
Matt Brown:I believe it's in first Kings. And Elijah brings a woman's son back from the dead. And so Jesus, right, is greater than Elijah. He's greater than the prophet. So he's doing the works.
Matt Brown:So right, John questions, actually right after this, you know, who are you?
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Which is where the question comes, because you just raised this this kid from the dead. And so think about this kid is dead in the he's in the coffin on the way to the grave. And the bible says that Jesus sees his mother and he has compassion on her. Mhmm. He's heartbroken for her because he knows she's now going to have to sell herself as a slave or sell herself in prostitution because she has no husband and now she has no son.
Matt Brown:And so your son was your lifeblood in that day. It was your insurance policy. Your children took care of you in your old age. She's now completely on her own. She's devastated.
Matt Brown:And the Bible says Jesus saw that, man. Is and I what I love about the story is it shows that God cares about our deepest hurts. He cares about our deepest losses. He weeps with us. Jesus was moved by her loss.
Matt Brown:Right. And he healed.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. He even reaches out. Yeah. He sees her and says, don't cry. Right?
Matt Brown:Yeah. And he does what a rabbi is not supposed to do. Right? A rabbi is not supposed to touch corpse because they become unclean. But Jesus is no rabbi.
Matt Brown:Right? Who who are you, Jesus? He's the son of God. Mhmm. Death does not corrupt him.
Matt Brown:And he reaches out and he touches the boy and calls him, says, come out. You'll be alive. And the mother weeps every and the bible says everybody's terrified. Terrified. They're they're excited, but they're scared to death.
Matt Brown:I mean right? Because these things don't happen. We don't go to funerals, and people don't touch somebody, and they come back. It doesn't happen.
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And but Jesus is lord even over death. So who who is that? Who has authority over death? God does. Jesus Christ is god.
Matt Brown:So it's awesome.
Justin Pardee:Man, I I keep thinking about just even all the folks who decided to commit their lives to Jesus here this last weekend, and then the, really, that same kind of faith that they're trying to move forward in in, you know, Jesus trusting or almost like picturing Jesus reaching out to them saying, you know, I'm I'm seeing your circumstances. You know, I wanna come enter in there. And then the response is really ask for that that kind of faith and, what what it looks like. Man, for for those of us who've got friends or family who are here this weekend that we've invited, you know, some of us have neighbors or coworkers that maybe commit themselves to Christ. For folks who are just kinda starting off on that path, maybe literally even this weekend, how would you encourage us to encourage them?
Justin Pardee:Does that make sense?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Yeah. I would just say start start reading the Bible with us and catch up. You only got seven chapters to go, but start learning the story of Jesus because you can't follow Jesus and not know him. And the only way you know him is by what happened in scriptures.
Matt Brown:That's why the scripture is so important. As Christians, we are people of the word. And so they've gotta start reading their bibles. The gospel of Luke is a great place to start because it's written for people who don't understand everything about about God. And so it's a great place to start.
Matt Brown:So I would say start there, start learning and give yourself time. And so, Luke seven, so there's two examples, right? John's questioning, but then it's the Gentile. It's the Gentile who, right? I think it's the Gentile centurion that has great faith.
Matt Brown:And he says, you don't even need to come into my house.
Stephanee Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And and Jesus says, such faith have I not seen in all of Israel. So this Gentile has more faith. And so that's what I would just encourage them is to go with their faith. Trust their faith. Keep believing.
Matt Brown:Because that guy didn't know Jesus. He wasn't even a Jew, but he had incredible faith.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So you literally just wrapped up preaching on Luke seven, like, an hour and a half ago at most. Do you have any idea where you're gonna go next week with Luke chapter eight? There's all kinds of stuff in there.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I have no idea. Alright. Sounds good.
Melody Workman:Well,
Justin Pardee:we will be, I guess, praying for you this week as you are re reading through that. How do do how do you do that? Do just kinda read Luke
Matt Brown:eight a bunch? Read it a couple of times, pray over it, and try to figure out what part of the chapter because I can't preach on everything. You know, I picked the I picked the chapter or the section each week that I feel like God wants our church to hear.
Melody Workman:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so sometimes that's on healing. This week, was on being saved, giving an opportunity for people to experience forgiveness. And I can't tell you how important that is for all of us to live a guilt free, shame free life. Because shame and guilt are real, and you can't wish them away. Somebody has to take them away.
Matt Brown:Somebody has to remove that burden from you. And so Jesus said that He can do that. And He does that with a woman, you know, who's just weeping and it's such a powerful story. And it touched the heart of Christ and He changed her life. So
Justin Pardee:Actually, can I ask you one more question really quick? No. You mentioned you kind of answered this this weekend. I'm gonna I'm gonna do it anyway. Because we get this question all the time, which is asking people asking us, how come we don't, invite people to come to know Jesus at the end of service every single weekend?
Justin Pardee:And I really kind of love where that question is coming from. Right? Usually, it's people wanting to see more people commit their lives to following Jesus. You know, maybe somebody with a neighbor or a husband or a wife who doesn't know Jesus. And you even talked about that a little bit this weekend.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I Well, would say the first thing is that every healthy church needs to have a spiritual rhythm. So if you're constantly leading new people to Christ, what that means is you're not discipling them. Because I mean, right? If a family has 20 babies, life has to change radically.
Matt Brown:And so churches oftentimes like to see babies, but they don't wanna grow children. And so I believe that my primary purpose as a pastor is to grow children, to help people grow. That's why we're studying the gospel of Luke. My job is to teach the church. Sandals is not an evangelistic rally.
Matt Brown:We're not harvest crusade, that's not what it is. And so I give an invitation, A, when I feel the Holy Spirit leads me to, or B, the text mandates it like today, I think the text mandates it. And so we give people an opportunity to come to Christ. And I think that there's healthy rhythms. And so if as a pastor, every single week, I'm thinking about, okay, how do I end with a gospel message?
Matt Brown:What happens is the church people tune you out. And also the barometer for spiritual movement at the church becomes lost people getting saved, not Christians becoming more like Christ. And so I want the barometer of the health of our church to be Christians becoming more like Christ. That's the primary responsibility. Because if we're becoming like Christ, we're gonna share our faith.
Matt Brown:We're gonna lead people to Christ. We're gonna minister, we're gonna disciple. And a church that does that, a church where church people are leading people to Christ, a church where church people are discipling people, a church where church people are are going on mission, that's a church that changes the world. Not a pastor who stands up on stage and says, every week, I'm gonna call you to to receive Christ. And so, again, I see my primary job as feeding Christians, challenging Christians.
Matt Brown:And that's not to say there aren't lost people there. And the other thing is, is I don't think that you win somebody to Christ with one message. I think a lot of churches believe in that knockout punch, that Hail Mary, That one time. And we're now entering into a time when people don't know the gospel, they don't know the stories, and it takes people longer to be ready to accept Christ. And so most people need to hear, not always, because there's always that example of I heard Christ the first time and I got saved.
Matt Brown:But like I talked about me getting saved this week, but I grew up in church. I knew all the stories. I knew I was in sin. I knew what I was doing was wrong. And so when Greg preached, everything lined up for me.
Matt Brown:When pastor Greg Lloyd preached, it all lined up for me. But what do you do when you came from a Hindu background, an atheist background? You don't know anything about God. It takes you a while to figure out whether or not you wanna follow Jesus. And I think people should be given the opportunity.
Matt Brown:It's the most important decision. Right? I don't think you should get married the second you meet somebody. And I don't know that it's always healthy to accept Christ the second you hear about them. You've got to wrestle with the cost.
Matt Brown:Right? First Christ calls us to come and see, then he says count the cost. So figure it out. And I think about my friends that have gotten saved this year in church, you know. Some of my wife and I as good friends, they came to church for three months together, every single week, didn't miss.
Matt Brown:And then I gave an opportunity to be born again. They understood what it meant. They understood what change they needed to make in their life. And they've got totally involved. They're reading the Bible.
Matt Brown:They're in a small group. They're making all these changes because they were given time Right. To sit back, figure it out. And if you're pressuring people to make a decision right here, right now, every week, oftentimes they don't ever come back. And my number one goal each week is for people to come back.
Matt Brown:Come back. Come back. Because that's how that's how progress happens. That's how change happens. And and I think we see a lot of people in our church come to Christ.
Matt Brown:We do. We see a healthy amount.
Justin Pardee:Totally. Man, that was awesome. That was super great. So, good luck figuring out what you're gonna do for Luke chapter eight this weekend. And, thanks everybody for listening to the debrief.
Justin Pardee:We got some really encouraging, emails that have come in over the week, and, we super, super appreciate all of that feedback. If you guys wanna do us a favor and help spread the word about the podcast, of course, we would appreciate that. If there's friends in your community group that aren't listening to it, we should probably just tell them
Matt Brown:that Absolutely.
Justin Pardee:Start listening to it. Sandalschurch.com/thedebrief. And if you've got questions that you want to, get pastor Matt to answer, go ahead and get those to your community group leader, and, your community group leader can get them on the show. And if you do have final feedback, we'd love it. Send me an email, prd@sandalssearch.com.
Justin Pardee:Would And
Stephanee Schaefer:feel free to mention how much you like that new guest.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah. Exactly.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I thought she was pretty awesome.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. She did. She did alright. Alright. Alright.
Justin Pardee:We love you guys. Have a rad week, and we'll see you back here for episode number I think it's gonna be twelve. I'm not sure how.
Stephanee Schaefer:It sounds that right?
Justin Pardee:It's four?
Stephanee Schaefer:We don't do math.
Matt Brown:Alright. Thanks guys for listening. Alright.
Justin Pardee:Bye.