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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi, I'm wearing my Harris shirt.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hi. I see, I see.
Becky Mollenkamp: If anyone's seeing this and likes it, go to smashingpatriarchy.com to get one. But I am wearing it because we're talking about last night's debate and we're going to put out a same day episode to talk about it.
Taina Brown she/hers: We are, we are. Hopefully this will not dysregulate me as much as watching the actual debate did.
Becky Mollenkamp: Did it. Okay, well, first and foremost, can we just both agree she wiped the floor with them? Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers: For sure, for sure. She's a litigator. She's a master debater. She knows what she's doing. It took all of two seconds for him to just begin unraveling.
Becky Mollenkamp: To crumble. I like that you said master debater because of course I think of master baiter. But anyway, she's a master to pay her. Sorry. Got you right. When you drink something, it's going to come out your nose. Okay. So I want to start off by the very beginning of the debate where she came out and walked over to shake his hand and he looked like a child running away from her. Hilarious and so smart.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I, you know, I watched a little bit of the news right before the debate and they're like, are they going to shake hands? Are they not going to shake hands? Who's going to make the first move to do that? Right. Like, what are we going to, how are we going to see this happen? And it looked like he was just not expecting that at all. He looked like a deer in the headlights when she walked over. Tamella was like Kamala Harris. And he was like,
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, he did.
Taina Brown she/hers: What do I do? You know, and so it's like you shake her hand, it looked like he had no intention of doing that whatsoever.
Becky Mollenkamp: Exactly. It looked like he thought who would do such a thing. Like you could just tell that he, would have never even crossed his mind to do that. And I love that she introduced herself because it was like such a contrast of like her being humble, even though I am sure she's far from humble and she nor my notifications are nor should she be humble, right? Because she deserves to be like, I think women deserve to be as full of themselves as anyone else. But it was a real contrast between her being humble and then him and the way he is. So I thought.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the many, many billions that he's made that some people are even surprised about. And, you know, I think what I found really interesting about that is that someone pointed out like they've never met. So it was.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I know, which is weird.
Taina Brown she/hers: I felt like it was a good move on her part to introduce herself as like, okay, this is our first official meeting. Like, let's acknowledge that, right? Let's not just like gloss over it and just make this just two opponents in a death match, right? Running for president. Like, let's actually introduce ourselves.
Becky Mollenkamp: And then it shows him as the person who looks like everyone should know who I am. Cause I did not hear him say Donald Trump. think he just, yeah. So he, you know, it just was again, it was that contrast. So that was a great way to start. And really quickly they got into abortion, which was interesting to me that it came up so early, but I was glad it did. And I have to tell you, and I put this on threads and it has a lot of likes. So tell me, it tells me that it resonates with other people. Cause I said, it felt really fucking liberating.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. No, he did not introduce himself.
Becky Mollenkamp: To have a woman talking about abortion in a presidential debate. Like to finally, and again, like all of, we both have issues with Kamala Harris. She's not our ideal perfect candidate, but the things that do make me happy is that kind of a moment where there is a woman. And again, know, trans men can have, can be pregnant and abortion affects more than just women. for so, throughout history, we've only had men in that role talking about her bodies, our rights. And it just felt like I had this moment of going like, my God, this is so amazing hearing a woman. And you could tell too, like the passion she brought to that topic was something else. It was very different than we've ever experienced in a presidential debate around that issue.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought that was, I thought she did a really good job there. I'll say like the thing that shocked me about how early it was brought up and he brought it up was, and I only know this because Impact on Instagram put out like a bingo card for the debate. And so I was like really paying attention to the topics and like what was going on. Usually I don't, I'm just like, I'm just gonna, you know, sit back and just let this happen to me. But last night I was like, okay, which topics are coming up? Like, so could keep track on my bingo card. And the very first question by David Muir was about economics, right? The economy. And so she answered it and then they gave him his time to respond. And he immediately brought up immigration. Like within five minutes, within five minutes.
Becky Mollenkamp: Of course. Yep. If you were doing a drinking game on how many times he talked about immigration, you would be dead today. So I hope no one was.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that was basically his soapbox for the entire night. Yeah, yeah, yes. my God, that one sentence that he said when he started talking about terrorists, I was like, if he says the word terrorists one more time, I just felt like it was like terrorists, terrorists, blah, blah, terrorists, terrorists, terrorists, blah, blah, blah, terrorists, terrorists, terrorists, terrorists.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's his entire platform. That and tariffs. He has two words, immigration tariffs. Right. He's, he's turned both tariffs and immigration into like, those have become buzzwords that just, don't think that the bulk of his followers even actually have an understanding of really what either means or the implications of either. They just now know those as like important words, right? Of like, you're against tariffs. You must be bad. Or, you're for immigration. You must be bad. Like, but anyway, yes, it was exactly. Yeah. Especially in the immigration thing.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, they're dog whistles. They're dog whistles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: The economy was the first thing and yeah, it was immediately that contrast between I'm gonna talk about policies and actual things. Although I will say, I didn't think she answered that first question because the first question was something like, are people better off than they were four years ago? And she, oops, we're all getting our notifications. It's okay. And she went into like, all the things that she's gonna do in the future. So she didn't really answer the question either, but at least it was policy -based. And then, yeah, he went off the rails talking about immigration. And then was, I think, pretty quickly it moved to abortion after that,
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within the first like 10 minutes, was like economy, immigration, abortion. And you know, what I felt interesting is like his first response, I was like, he's actually a little bit coherent today. So I was surprised. Yeah, the first couple responses. Yeah, but then I was watching a little bit of the news after and they were talking about how much she was goading him.
Becky Mollenkamp: Which is unusual. The first couple, the first couple responses, use a little bit. She did. She did a masterful job.
Taina Brown she/hers: And so I think the unfortunate part about it is that like, we didn't really get to hear a lot of like her, not her stance, but like her plans for some of the policy issues that were brought up because a lot of the time, well, not a lot of the time, but I would say least half the time was spent like directed at him, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, he ended up with five or six more minutes of speaking time than she did because he kept interrupting and yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers: For sure. For sure. And that's one of the things that actually like, it really pissed me off because like, they said at the beginning, before they even brought the candidates out, the mic is going to stay muted until it's your turn to talk. They didn't fucking keep his mic muted. And it was like, one, like you told the journalists moderating this debate that you were going to do that. And you basically just left them out.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ugh. Yeah. No! No!
Taina Brown she/hers: Like you just threw them [the moderators] to the wolves by not being able to back that up. But then also like fucking just follow through. Like what does it say when like a major news station that is broadcasting this and has set up these rules of engagement for how to have this conversation and they can't even follow through on that. Like what does that communicate to the American people?
Becky Mollenkamp: Which by the way, that was the rule Trump wanted. She tried to get that changed. She wanted to not have the muted mics. That was rule that had been agreed upon back when it was Biden. She had been fighting up until recently, like the last couple of days to say, let's change that rule. And he was adamant no, because his people know that he sounds bad when there's a hot mic, right? So ultimately it worked in her favor, I think. And so she's probably not upset about it, but it was annoying because every time he started to talk when his mic was muted, they unmuted him. When she would do it, they didn't, which is why he ended up with an extra, I think the news said something like six minutes more speaking time, which over an hour or so is substantial. Like it was definitely not even. And it was really because of that, because he kept interrupting. But I think part of the reason why for the most part she just let him go was because that was what she wanted. They wanted him to have that hot mic. There was, in fact, I actually felt like the one time when she was trying to like,say, no, no, no, I need to talk about this thing that he keeps bringing up and they weren't letting her unmute. And then she finally did it on her answer. I was like, as much as I get it, because it was bullshit and he's getting all this extra time, I think she should have just been like, let him go because he he's undoing himself and her doing that like demanding thing falls unfortunately into that horror exactly this trope of this angry black woman. And so I was like,
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm [feeding into] into his playbook, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Just let him do it, because he is ruining himself. So, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do appreciate that she conceded there. She was like, you know, for lack of a better term, the bigger person in air quotes, right? I think it just, you know, as an earth sign, and I hate to bring this up, just the fucking integrity of journalism has just been shot. And that just, my God, that just burns me up so much, so much because what it's communicating is that like he's a big baby and if he throws a tantrum he will get his way.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's what he's learned in life. And it works. I will say on the journalist's behalf, first of all, David Muir is a very handsome man. So just know it. I know all the women last night were like, how have I been sleeping on David Muir? Like, how did I not know about this guy? I'm like, go check out his Instagram because he posts like these, I mean, he's like a freaking super model on his Instagram. So anyway, no, shouldn't. But anyway, he's a very good looking man and I was nervous and I will say.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yes, exactly! My God, I 100 % agree. I probably should not follow his Instagram.
Becky Mollenkamp: And this is because we're now grading on a scale, but I do, or a curve, but I do think they did a much better job than CNN did at that last debate. They did, yeah, they live fact -checked some things, they pushed back on things. I was really proud of both of them and I wish I could think of her name was like Angela something, or Lindsay. Lindsay Davis. I don't know her. I have never seen her before. I'm not a big ABC news watcher. Yeah, I watch NBC, but I did,
Taina Brown she/hers: 100 %! Lindsay, Lindsay something, I think [Lindsay Davis]. Me either. We watch CBS at home.
Becky Mollenkamp: I did wreck, I know David and you're, but I didn't know her, but they both did a really, I agree about the mic piece. Although there's this part of me that wonders, did they allow it because they knew that Harris wanted it? And they're like, I don't know, but I was proud that they at least did some fact checking in real time because the, speaking of the abortion part, this whole, they're executing babies after they're born, which.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm…after they're born. You mean like in the school shootings?
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, in the past, he's gotten away with that. Talking about this like after birth abortion nonsense, which is in case anyone's curious, complete and total fabrication, absolutely not true. But in the past, he's gotten away with saying those things without being checked at all. And so I was really happy that they did check him last night on that because it just, it's not okay for him to be able to continue to just say the most ridiculous things, which yes, right?
Taina Brown she/hers: Unsubstantiated. Things, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Speaking of, well actually maybe before we do that, the other thing I wanted to say is, because we talked about him unraveling, so there was the abortion thing. And then one of the next pieces that started to come up, which is where the unraveling started and where she really gave her like knockout and it was over, was when she brought up crowd sizes. And she said, I'm gonna do something I don't normally do. I'm gonna encourage you to go to one of his debate or one of his rallies. my God, this was masterful. And she was like, because you're gonna see. Because she said she first of all mentions crowd sizes and then she talks about people leaving because he's boring and you know the thing that he wants people to think about him is that he's an entertainer he's a master at that and she you can see up until that point he had been doing his best which his best is not great but to like just stay stoic he was staring at the camera he never looked at her which i thought was interesting because she looked at him a lot he never looked at her and he was just staring you could occasionally he'd give a little almost eye roll or kind of like start to let something up but it was mostly like i think
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah, because he's a celebrity.
Becky Mollenkamp: People that he was hearing them yelling at him, Donald, don't do anything. Don't In his mind, he was going like, and so then they didn't have earpieces, just so you know,
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I kept wondering, like, what are they saying into his earpiece?
Becky Mollenkamp: No, they weren't allowed to have earpieces or notes. They couldn't even bring out notes. They could take notes there, but they couldn't bring anything prepared. So it was just him. This is why he unraveled, because there was no one there, but it was him remembering. They told me not to say, don't say anything. Don't look, don't smile. Don't roll my eyes.
Becky Mollenkamp: And she said that and he lost it. Like that was it. He was like, no, no, I need to answer that. Not because he wanted to talk about any substantive policy, but because he needed to make sure people know I'm not boring. Huge crowds. People love me.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah, huge crowds. So many people at his rallies. Why would anyone go to her rallies?
Becky Mollenkamp: My God, and that, right? And it's when it really started to unravel for him. Cause he just, from there on, like she managed to get him to like any amount of any semblance of like composure that he was trying really hard to keep was gone then. And that's when he started doing all the interrupting. And then we got into one of my favorite moments that I couldn't believe he did it, but I should have known he was gonna when he started talking about illegal aliens. I'm using air quotes because he's kind of where it's no one before that one. Eating the pets. They're eating your cats and dogs, people. And I am like, what blatant xenophobia, racism, talk about dog whistles, like racist tropes, like just all of it. Like in this one thing where I thought, can't believe, I can't believe you went there. They had to have told him, don't do it.
Taina Brown she/hers: They're transgender operations. Eating pets, yes! Mm -hmm. Don't say that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Cause we know he's been saying it at rallies and stuff, I didn't think he was gonna be stupid enough to do it and he did. And I was like, wow.
Taina Brown she/hers: He did it, he did it, he did it. And it was so funny because David Muir was like, okay, the city manager in Springfield, Ohio says there's no evidence of that. And then Don was like, no, there is. And David was like, no, there isn't. And he was like, no, there is. And David was like, no, there isn't, but moving on. And then Dabur was like, well, we'll see.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right? I know, well, Trump's like, he basically, yeah, Trump basically said, well, I saw it on TV or someone told me something like that where it's like, that's different than the literally the people that are there. officials who are there to know these things said no. And it's just, that was like, it was funny, but it was also really, really upsetting because the thing at that moment, I started to think there are still like 34%, I think it is of people who are gonna vote for him no matter what.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: So even saying that kind of absolutely outlandish and clearly just straight up racist shit, they're still just like, yeah, I'm gonna vote for him. Like that, it made me like, I got sad. Like I was laughing a lot last night at how off the rails he had gone and like, my God, this couldn't be going better for her. But also it made me really sad. That was a moment where I was like, I can't believe that many people are still gonna vote for this man. And to think the rest of the world is watching this.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. And the thing is, part of that 30 something percent of people who will vote for him believe the same things that he believes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ugh, God, they're watching this. That's what scares me. Like that there's that many people that are out there. Cause I mean, he sounded like a ranting, raving conspiracy theorists wearing an aluminum hat kind of person, right? Like the old man saying, get off my line. Did you hear about the aliens that are eating dogs who are, you know, transgender pets? Like, I mean, just like a madman. And the fact that there are that many people who like we've gotten that far away from reality that he doesn't represent. And it's like, he's not an anomaly.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: If he was, wouldn't, he would be an RFK, right? He'd be getting that kind of level of support. We're talking, we're talking 34 % of people who will vote for him no matter what. And then there's another 10 % of people who are like, I might, I still might. Ooh, that's terrifying.
Taina Brown she/hers: No. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Like he's, he is right up there with RFK. I think the difference is the context in which the American people know him and know RFK, right? Like they know RFK as being a part of the Kennedys. The Kennedy family has a history of being more left of center, right? And so conservatives feel a certain way about that where, and so they have. They will, there's more potential for them to have a bias against someone with a Kennedy name, right? And so they're less likely to believe anything that comes out of a Kennedy's mouth. Whereas Donald Trump is seen as like this billionaire, this celebrity with all this status, like these marriages to these beautiful women, like, and so he's created this like brand for himself that those of us with critical thinking skills can see through. Because the veil is very, very thin, right, as time goes on, but people who don't have critical thinking skills, people who might believe whatever they see on TV, right? Like I saw a BuzzFeed article this morning about Trump putting out statistics from all these like news sites, again in air quotes, that aren't real news sites.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, well last night one of his reference points for something, and I can't remember what it was now, but he was saying, but everyone agrees with me. Laura Ingram and Sean Hannity, and he started listening to these, they were all Fox opinion reporters. They're not even journalists. They're opinion people. They're the evening, but the lines have become so blurred that people don't even recognize it, and they need to, it should be required.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Journalists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: That on Fox News, MSNBC, like all of them, even Rachel, who I love, Rachel Maddow, like those things need to be labeled as opinion, not even news, opinion entertainment shows or something, because people watch them and they see Fox News and they think they're watching a news channel, but almost all of, I mean, first of all, all of their people skew more, right? But their entire evening lineup is opinion pieces. are not journalists, they are not.
Taina Brown she/hers: Opinion news or opinion shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: The news folks. So yeah, it's very upsetting because he represents a very particular kind of person that there are more of in this country than we want to admit. And you talk about critical thinking skills, and this explains why the Project 2025 and the right wing want to stop teaching people critical thinking skills. They don't... Yeah, exactly. We don't want them to read books that might open their eyes to how him talking about
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, because it's easier to manipulate people when they can't think for themselves.
Becky Mollenkamp: Immigrants eating dogs is very much part and parcel with things that have been used in the past to change people's minds about a group of people to say where they once might have said, no, we can't round up a whole group of humans and kill them. Now to say, well, if they're eating dogs, they're not human, they're subhuman. that's trying to create this narrative that they are not human. And we've don't ever learned that these things have happened before and you can see where they go.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, now it's okay because they eat dogs. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp: You don't have those critical thinking skills. And so now let's not teach real history. Let's not teach social emotional learning because we don't want people to actually have empathy for other humans.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was interesting too how he was talking about how like crime was up and crime is actually down. Like and you know when they tried to fact check him he was like, well the FBI was like defrauded. The FBI was defrauded and it's like you know I was thinking about this last night or this morning actually like therapists and psychologists.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know.
Taina Brown she/hers: I strongly advise against arguing or debating with someone who is a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies because you just cannot win, right? They have created their own reality and nothing you say can change their mind. Nothing you say is going to be right because the only thing they're going to do is they're just going to extend the bubble of their reality to counter your argument. Yet here we are on the American political stage.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yep, yep.
Taina Brown she/hers: Forcing this accomplished, achieved, professional Black woman to debate with a narcissist. Like, one, that it's not good for her mental health, and two, every woman who has had to work her ass off to be in the places that she wants to be and has had to contend with mediocre or less than mediocre male supremacy felt what Kamala was feeling last night. Like they can empathize with her experience right now.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:00.568): And I wrote "mediocre white man" on my notes. So I'll mark that off because that was one of the things I wanted to talk about too. Cause I was like, I mean, talk about the epitome of a mediocre white man that he has nothing substantive to say. He doesn't know at all about what he's talking. He does not know these issues. He doesn't even understand what tariffs are. He keeps talking about these illegal immigrants coming from asylums, which I truly think he has only understood because he's heard people talk about asylum seekers. I don't think he even understands what I truly—
Taina Brown (she/hers) (22:09.197): Yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Don't think he has any understanding of what he's talking about. And then yes, you have this very smart, accomplished, incredible woman. Whether I fully agree with her or not, can clearly see that she is a very intelligent, very accomplished woman standing next to him, having to deal with it. And her face last night told a whole story. Her expressions, it was just like, and I felt for her. I'm like, I couldn't.
Taina Brown (she/hers): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.My gosh, yes, yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp: Compose myself the way she could. Cause I would have been rolling my eyes laughing nonstop. I scoffed. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Like, so the fact that she was able to, but I felt like that face, all of her faces, I agree with you. I think women were watching going like, I know that face. Like I have been talked over by a man at work. I've been told I don't know what I'm talking about. Gaslight, all of those things. Like we all know it. And we all saw it in her face last night.
Taina Brown (she/hers): No. I would have walked off. I would have been like, this is waste of time. I'm done. I'm done.
Taina Brown (she/hers): Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown (she/hers): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It immediately made me think of a couple of my clients that we've had to like talk through how to handle some of that at work because it was just like, my God, like this is the thing that we have to contend with every single fucking day, every single fucking day of our lives. It's gaslighting on a systemic level, on a political level, on a geographical level, right? Like it's gaslighting at every level you could possibly think of. I think, you know, I think she did a great job. I think that obviously she's more qualified for this job than he is. And I was, but I was very, very disheartened about two things. One, on a systemic level, on a political level, on a geographical level, right? Like it's gaslighting at every level you could possibly think of. I think, you know, I think she did a great job. think that obviously she's more qualified for this job than he is. And I was, but I was very, very disheartened about two things. One, nobody talked about COVID in the present tense. They only talked about COVID in the past tense as part of the pandemic. They didn't acknowledge that it is still an ongoing thing and that cases are actually skyrocketing these days, right? That it's still a problem for a lot of people.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, the numbers are wild.
Taina Brown she/hers: And to hear her also perpetuate the narrative of rapes on October 7th was...enraging because that has been debunked so long ago.
Becky Mollenkamp: That section, yeah. I knew I was gonna be upset when they started to introduce, as soon as they were like, okay, let's talk about Israel. I'm like, okay, this part's gonna piss me off because, know, of course it is. And yeah, she's continuing the same narrative she's been giving. And I think she knows it's a path to winning. I hate that. And yet she's right, I'm sure. Although I don't know. I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: It's such an interesting place for her to be in because I don't know if the pros of bringing in some of those more moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans who are Zionists and care deeply about this issue. I really wish I knew the truth about how that number compares to the number of deeply progressive Dems and non -Dems, but true progressives who are anti -Zionists, who do not agree with what's happening, do not like the way she's showing up. Like, I wish I knew the difference in those numbers. Clearly, they've probably done the research and have decided the numbers, those moderates are more important, which sucks.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. There's also, there's talking points that the empire of Israel, I'll call them an empire because that's what they are, right? The colonial state of Israel, they have a playbook on talking points, right? This has been shared on social media. This has been fact checked. Right? Like there's an actual playbook that has narrative talking points about how to talk about the colonial state of Israel. And that is shared widely among politicians all across the world. Right? Like that's something that's out there that it's part of their propaganda toolkit. And so it's, it's not surprising to me that like, there's a very specific type of script, right, that's followed when talking about Israel. Like you will hear US politicians say the same things over and over again when talking about the state of Israel because that's part of their script. And I think that's a dog whistle also, right? Because that's a dog whistle for funders, for Zionist funders, that's a dog whistle for other Zionist politicians, that's a dog whistle for...Israel itself, right? Like, and so it's, yeah, it was.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and Israel has begun like publicly top officials have started referring to West Bank. I had to look it up because I'm not good with these biblical names, but by its historic name of Judea and Samaria or what they say, this biblical name that makes, it's been starting and it's happening a lot more and it's getting higher up in their officials that are now using that term and trying to correct people when they say West Bank.
Taina Brown she/hers: No, no, no, are you serious?
Becky Mollenkamp: And that is yet another way that they're trying to push that just a little bit farther. Like how far can they push things to get away with saying, no, this is our land, right? And they're getting far more blatant and it is absolutely wild to me. So it's very upsetting. And what happened last night was exactly what I thought would happen as far as her response. She said exactly what I thought she would. So there was no big surprise there. It's still disappointing, but it wasn't a surprise. What did surprise me, speaking of other countries, was Trump not being able to say that he thinks that Russia should lose and Ukraine should win. I was like, like, wow, that was pretty stark and they pushed him on it and he wouldn't say it. Just that the war needs to end. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, he wouldn't answer it. He wouldn't answer the question. He was just like, just the warning set and the warning said.
Becky Mollenkamp: I was like, wow, if people weren't sure about him being in Putin's pocket, like that should have really, I hope woken some people up to say, okay. Okay, there's a few other things I have on my notes that I wanted to bring up. You just hinted at it, but I'll just mention it again. Him saying that they were performing trans surgeries on illegal aliens in prison, which is interesting. First of all, I did see a trans activist saying there are surgeries being performed on people in prison because our laws say that they deserve equal care and that's wonderful. exactly, and I'm great with that. But I don't know where this line has come from for him. And I saw a lot of people saying it's like his like racist and homophobic and transphobic like Mad Libs. Like he just put a bunch of the words into a bag, them and said, here, trans surgeries on illegal aliens in prison.
Taina Brown she/hers: That's healthcare. That's healthcare.
Becky Mollenkamp: That should get the people upset. Yeah. He is.
Taina Brown she/hers: What a fucking idiot. I just, I'm like, a part of me is like, how did we get here? But I know how we got here. The same way Israel has gotten to the point where they are now calling the West Bank Judea or Samaria or whatever. It's the same way we got here, where the goalpost keeps moving. Every time we concede a little bit. We concede a little bit and then the go -post moves a little bit more. Then we concede a little bit and the go -post moves a little bit more. People get emboldened by neutrality.
Becky Mollenkamp: See and that, yeah. That's what pisses me off about Harris courting the moderates so much because the moderates aren't even moderate by what our moderate standards would have been 20 years ago, right? And so now we're courting, she's really courting right wing people and that's just moving everything more to the right. And so ultimately it feels like they're still winning. Even when Democrats win, the Republicans are still winning because they're slowly chipping away at what Democrats are feeling like they can say. Okay, just moving on really quickly because so the other big thing that I thought about was him quite, they brought up the question about him questioning her as being black. And he fumbled that ball so badly. He was like, I don't care what she is, what she is, right? And, and then he just was, I think he said like, well, but I read she was black and then I read she wasn't. And he just sounded like such a moron. And then she, I thought, did a really masterful job there as far as politicians go, wouldn't be the way I would say she should show up, but this is why I'm not a democratic strategist. But I thought she did a really masterful job of making that whole talking point sort of this place of unity. It felt very Barack in her answer there of like, you know, we all have our, it was basically a version of every, hey, all you white people, you've got black friends.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: So like, do you really want this nut job? I mean, that was ultimately sort of what she was saying in this way of like, kumbaya, we all, we want America where we all get along. And I thought she handled that really well, especially after he fumbled it so bad.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, I totally missed that part. Like our TV froze up for like a couple minutes while he was talking nonetheless. And so there's like, there was just like this image on the screen of her just like doing this thing and him like, you know, whatever, you know, his, ugly ass face, but
Becky Mollenkamp: Really? Hahaha. Maybe it was the universe saving you from having to listen to that nonsense.
Taina Brown she/hers: Maybe, maybe I will reframe it that way for sure. I think, you know, along the lines of that, and I remember her also saying, you know, like she made a statement about people who are maybe Republican or more conservative than she is and feeling kind of like there's Trump. But the Trump campaign has kind of fallen off the deep end. And she made a statement of like, there's room for you in our campaign. And I have to disagree. I have to disagree there. I don't want racist people in my space. I don't want homophobic or transphobic or xenophobic people in my space. I don't want people who are okay with Palestinians getting eviscerated off the face of the planet for empire in my space.
Becky Mollenkamp: I would like to disagree.
Taina Brown she/hers: And so I think this whole concept of just unity, Like I understand the message behind it and I understand the reason why a lot of Democratic candidates have pushed that message for so long. But there's a difference between unity when you're moving in the same direction and your values are aligned and just making space for things that are evil in this world. I, there's a conflation of those two things when we're talking about unity that I am not comfortable with.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, think that we really this country is at a place of needing at least three political parties. Truly, we need a progressive party, a racist party, and then what they would call the unity party and I would call the like wash down bullshit party. Like we need we need three parties and then if you spread votes out across those three, we would have a far more representative government, I think. And I would wish that would happen because I'm at a place of like I can't even align myself with Democrats anymore because they have moved so far to the center really…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp: …more towards the right, that it just does not, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't resemble anything of like who I am. Okay, hold on, because I want to go back what you just said about there's no room for those people in my life, but quickly just want to also mention my favorite line of the night, which was when David Meier pushed him or was it Dave? I think it was him who pushed him. One of them pushed him on, you have a plan? And he was like, I think it was for healthcare. And he said, I have concepts of a plan.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, because the center keeps moving. I have concepts of a plan in my mind.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and I'm like, that was the one time where I was like, I hard relate to Trump in this moment, even though I can't stand the man. Right? I was like, I thrive on concepts of a plan. That's, that's all I have in my life is concepts of a plan. I put that in my bio on threads because I loved it so much. was like, concepts of a plan is absolutely like, I think there were so many people who even though it was ridiculous for a person who held the office for four years has had four years since then to come up with plans like…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah.I have lots of concepts and plans.
Becky Mollenkamp: He should have actual plans. But I think most of us, especially maybe the ADD folks are like, I so relate to having a concept of a plan. So I love that. Okay. So the last thing I want to touch on, maybe there's two things, but you just mentioned there's no room for people like that in my life. So now here we go. And I get called all the time on threads as a hater and what's wrong with me and why am I still drinking the haterade? And like, I just want to be negative, but I got to bring up Taylor Swift because she endorsed it. Kamala Harris immediately following this debate. Who was such bravery after he's already wiped up for exactly. I was like, bitch, where were you once ago? Like forget about like that's there's no amount of bravery or courage in it. And I was hearing people saying what courage it took. I was like, are you flipping kidding me? Okay, fine. But the other piece is you just mentioned there's no room for those people in my life. She goes around and she can endorse Harris while being buddy, chummy, chummy with Brittany Mahone's who's made it clear she supports Trump.
Taina Brown she/hers: That's not fucking brave that takes no bravery
Becky Mollenkamp: What does that say? And I've heard people say, you got don't you you have to room for free. You should be able to respect everyone's opinions. And what kind of person just doesn't have any, you who won't be friends with someone just because they have different political beliefs. And I'm like exactly like you. There's a difference between having, you know, we can talk about nuances around like, should we be funding? I don't know, after school care programs. Okay, let's we can talk about that. Let's. Yeah, let's talk about whether that's something that's a good use of our money, or would it be better suited to like…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. Policy decisions.
Becky Mollenkamp: ...help with homelessness. Okay, great. That's a real substantive place where we might have some disagreement, but to support a candidate who is talking about people, human beings eating pets as a way to dehumanize them, talking about trans issues, as if trans people are, I mean, basically supporting, rounding up trans people and like getting rid of them, rounding up millions of illegal aliens and his words and deporting them. Like the language that he uses for somebody also by the way, who's married to a black man, to support those policies and then say, yeah, we can be friends. We can just disagree on those things. While also out the other side of her mouth saying, I totally support Harris and everything she's about. And I love all the people. She made that stupid movie years ago about how she's Miss America, Miss Americana, because she like was gonna fight against Trump and how she loves, you know, her LGBTQ fans and she's there for everyone. And then to be friends, like buddy, buddy, not just like, anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. No, there's not. And here I am and I'm going to keep drinking my hater aid because if that makes me a hater, then that makes me a hater. It makes me a hater of all things that are vicious and disgusting and against the dignity of the humanity of people, not just in this country, but all over the world. And I think that
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm with you, like there's no room for those people in my life. Me too, I've been drinking it. Hater of Hate.
Taina Brown she/hers: It does not take any kind of bravery to say which candidate you're gonna endorse, especially when you have such a public platform. think that's, yes, that's your responsibility. That's your social responsibility to be able to do things like that. And that's the fucking bare minimum. And I'm just, I...
Becky Mollenkamp: And when the choices are this stark. To do, yeah, and she did it with less than 60 days to go before the election. She did it after it was clear that Harris had just wiped the floor with him and he had made a giant fool of himself. And to say that it was courageous while she simultaneously is hanging out with people who are filled with hate. There's no other way to say it. If you are somebody who's supporting Trump, you are filled with hate. Or you are okay with excusing hate and that is no better than you being filled with hate. It's the same.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. Just, yeah. No, it's not because it's complicity. It's complicity. You are either filled with hate or okay with hate or the fucking dumbest person on the planet, which I know sounds harsh. And I'm speaking partially out of anger here, but I think I have, I think I have a right to be angry here because this has gone on for too fucking long. Too fucking long. When are we gonna say enough? When are we gonna say enough?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, and people can call me a hater, but I'm just tired of elevating this person and treating her as if, first of all, we, infantilize her to treat her like she's like some 17 year old who's just doing this bold, brave act. She's a 30 year old. Yeah. She's a 30 something year old woman. She could be doing so much more. There is no amount of bravery in what she's done in issuing a statement on Instagram with a picture of her and her cute cat.
Taina Brown she/hers: She's in her thirties.
Becky Mollenkamp: Like I get the joke with JD Vance, but like it is just, it was not brave. There was no, and she even tied it to the AI stuff of like Trump using AI, like this AI endorsement, which even to me then is like this way of her kind of making it like, well, I didn't really want to do this, but I have to do it. Right? Right. And so it doesn't even feel like there's just nothing about it feels brave. Do I think it will make a difference? Possibly. My bringing out some younger voters, that's cool, but I'm not going to act as if she's helping.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, I saw that. “But I had to because they put me in this position.”
Becky Mollenkamp: [As if] She's done something monumental here because fuck that. It's ridiculous. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers: No, it's the bare minimum. It's the bare minimum. I think for people who have maybe been on the fence about Trump or even about Kamala, I think last night was if you watched or if you just caught the quick bites, like the sound bites or whatever today, obviously those of us who have been following knew how it was going to go down. And if you have kind of checked out like...my god. When can we leave?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, if you're not sure that he lost, he went into the spin room last night after the debate. That never happens. Politicians never go into the, the candidates don't ever go into the spin room because it's the space that after, so after the debate, there's the press is all in this big room. And usually they have like surrogates for the candidate. like Gavin Newsom usually, you know, it will be there or maybe Tim Walz, but usually not even, he wasn't there.
Taina Brown she/hers: What's the spin room?
Becky Mollenkamp: But it's like these kind of names inside of each party that show up to go and do interviews with all the media to kind of spin what happened towards their candidate winning. And that has always happened, but never does the candidate themselves go into the spin room because that's like, I don't know. It's more, it's like sort of saying, I did so bad that I need to come in here and save myself because normally they go and they either go to a rally or they go home or whatever. It's a hotel.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: But last night Trump showed up in the spin room, which just never happens and they were all like, what's happening here? And I think it was that clear to him that he had done that badly. So he lost.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah he did. He definitely lost the debate.
Becky Mollenkamp: Now let's hope he can lose the election.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yes, yeah, you know was watching last night and I was like she's clearly wiping the floor with him but is this going to matter?
Becky Mollenkamp: That's ultimately what I wondered too. And I haven't yet heard about the ratings, how many people watched. They were predicting it could be huge. They were saying it could be as many as 70, 80 million, which is like on par with like the Seinfeld finale, not Superbowl levels, but like huge more than any of the other debates. I don't know if that ended up happening. I'm curious because if enough people watched and there definitely will be enough today on social media, which is unfortunately how a lot of people get their news and on the news.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Maybe that will have some difference. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. I didn't feel like there were any, and I think it's stupid that this matters and maybe it doesn't matter, but often out of a debate, there are like one or two zingers that kind of become lines that they use. And while I think she did a great job of making him look bad, I don't feel like she got any of those sort of things in that are like the line everyone's going to remember and kind of use or like becomes like this rallying cry.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't think that happened, but I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what happens. And I really am curious if he will have a second debate. They were talking about a second debate. It would be stupid for him to do it, but.
Taina Brown she/hers: I don't think they're gonna put him. Yeah, yeah, I don't think they'll put him in front of her again. I think there were two lines, one from each of them that I think will actually be memorable, right? So like the first one is from him where he was like, “I'm speaking, does that sound familiar?” Right? Yeah, I saw somebody post that as a quote today and was like, he's a fan of Kamala.
Becky Mollenkamp: Okay. I don't even remember that line. I missed that one, darn it.
Taina Brown she/hers: Because if he remembers that, he's obviously been watching her, right? And he thinks that's a good line or whatever, and so he wanted to use it. And then the other one was where she said, “Donald Trump was fired by 81 million Americans, and he is clearly having a difficult time processing that.”
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, that was pretty good. And he, could tell that one was another one where he was like, nobody uses my, fire line on me.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the context of that was, if I remember correctly, I may be mistaken here, but because he kept talking about how he fired all these people that were disagreeing with him. And that's that's how you know that you're a good leader when you fire people or whatever. so and it was like, that's that's that's your benchmark for like good leadership, like firing people and also being feared. Like he talked about the Hungarian president.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers: Saying we need Donald Trump back in there, he's the most feared president. It's like you want people to be fucking afraid of you?
Becky Mollenkamp: That was the greatest, right? Because she was saying about world leaders thinking he's a joke and she was saying, they think you're a joke, which was great. And his response to that, yeah, I was talking about Orban. I think, I don't know if he mentioned Putin, but we know his relationship with all of these dictators and the fact that he immediately goes there with them. These are the people that he uses as his references. So if he was applying for a job and those are his references, I would be like…I think that we're going to probably say no. So yeah. Well, Taina, it was a great debate. It did not go the way the last presidential debate did. I don't think she'll be dropping out, which is good, probably for America. I think we both still have our reservations. I don't think that she's going to ever be able to address those. And I just don't think this party is able to do that. And my biggest hope is we're moving towards a place where we do go to having a viable third party that is progressive.
Taina Brown she/hers: No. Yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp: And that somehow that helps to create a little more equilibrium inside of our country. But I hope she wins because I don't want to see Trump. I mean, never have I seen somebody so unfit for office. Like my dog would do a better job. So he needs to lose for anything.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. So unfit for any job, any job. I wouldn't, if I owned a McDonald's, I would not hire him to clean the floors and bathrooms.
Becky Mollenkamp: God no. The only thing he's really fit for is where I hope he ends up, which is prison.
Taina Brown she/hers: Or an asylum because he's clearly out of his mind. I will say one last thing. I did appreciate that there was no audience because I feel like when there's an audience, I feel like he kind of is like, he has this aura about him.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and he's very faint. He loves talking about asylums, so…That's a change I like and I hope they stick with because the clap all they end up applauding and then they're the moderators are now managing Shush, please don't and like and and that if you ever been to a movie all alone a Comedy, let's say in particular you go to a comedy alone like you'll be like, when you're at see the same movie with a crowd There's something contagious that happens. Yeah, and it affects you and so that crowd stuff can influence a lot around how people feel just based on
Taina Brown she/hers: The energy. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's where those zingers and stuff really end up coming into play. And when they're not there, they're less likely to do it. Yeah, I agree. I hope that that stays.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yes. It's just two people having a conversation. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't like that the president, the commission on presidential debates is no longer involved. They should be. I don't love having just the networks deciding what's going on. I don't like having these baloney pseudo journalists. I wish at least PBS would be back involved. Like when they've had their people, it's been much better, but you know, nobody's going to listen to us probably.
Taina Brown she/hers: No, no. We're just two messy people, two messy haters.