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This podcast uses government documents to illuminate the workings of the American government, and offer context around the effects of government agencies in your everyday life.
N. Rodgers: Hey, Aughie
J. Aughenbaugh: Good morning, Nia. How are you?
N. Rodgers: I'm a little worried. How are you?
J. Aughenbaugh: I'm fine, but I'm always concerned when you are a little worried about what are you worried?
N. Rodgers: I don't want to lose my citizenship. I'm worried about my citizenship. I mean, I was born in the United States. I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina.
J. Aughenbaugh: Okay.
N. Rodgers: I almost had a Hee Haw moment. Population. You remember Hee Haw used to do that? They used to call out tiny little towns?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes.
N. Rodgers: North Carolina population 1,200 salute, they would say. But Charlotte has a significant population. They would not have ever called out Charlotte. But anyway.
J. Aughenbaugh: But I do remember it was big news in my small town in North Central Pennsylvania when Hee Haw called out the name of a surrounding town. It was covered extensively in the local newspaper, and we were talking about it for weeks.
N. Rodgers: The power of Hee Haw. That was a great show, by the way. It has actually aged pretty well, if you go back and listen to the musical guests.
J. Aughenbaugh: For those listeners who don't know what we're talking about. Hee Haw was a television show in the United States that would appear every Saturday night and it was a country oriented. It was hosted by Buck Owens and, who was the other dude?
N. Rodgers: Clark.
J. Aughenbaugh: Roy Clark?
N. Rodgers: Roy Clark. One of the finest guitarists.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. Buck Owens.
N. Rodgers: Ever to live.
J. Aughenbaugh: Buck Owens had a very extensive career charting on the country music charts. He had a lot of hits, but they had this segment where they would be in a fictitious cornfield. One or both of them would pop their heads out and call out a name of some small town in Pennsylvania.
N. Rodgers: Tell you the population?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes.
N. Rodgers: Then everybody on the show would say salute, but they would say it as salute.
J. Aughenbaugh: Salute. It was a way for them to pause the show so that they could go ahead and set up the next musical act.
N. Rodgers: But it also reached into the rural communities that were the backbone of watching Hee Haw. Because Hee Haw was reaching out in the same way that the Grand Ole opry reached out. In the '60s and '70s, great show Minnie Pearl with the sale tag that was always on.
J. Aughenbaugh: They would have these bizarre skints.
N. Rodgers: Yep. Some of them funny, some of them not funny. Yes.
J. Aughenbaugh: Then they would always have this protracted musical jam, and this is where Roy Clark would really get to shine, because of the two, Buck Owens was probably better known among mainstream Americans. But if you were a country music fan, you were aware of Roy Clark.
N. Rodgers: Oh, sorry.
J. Aughenbaugh: Simply because of his musicianship.
N. Rodgers: Amazing guitarist. Played all music. Spanish music. He was incredibly. They had guests. They had Johnny Cash. They had Loretta Lynn, they had Conway Twitty. They had Dolly Parton. It was a well known place for country musicians to go and play a song similar to Saturday Night Live for modern rock.
J. Aughenbaugh: Pop music. Because if you got an invite to go on to Hee Haw this was a milestone in your career.
N. Rodgers: It was a big deal.
J. Aughenbaugh: But anyway, this episode is part of our series of can President Trump do that?
N. Rodgers: Can he do that?
J. Aughenbaugh: Again, as Nia pointed out in our previous episodes, it's not a matter of can he do it because in many ways, he's already attempted to do some of the things that we have been reviewing.
N. Rodgers: Or he will just do them and then see where the chips fall.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes,.
N. Rodgers: That is one of Donald Trump's modus operandi is to ask forgiveness rather than permission.
J. Aughenbaugh: I was going to say he has been living embodiment of the old adage It's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In this instance, we are going to examine a claim that President Trump made on Wednesday, September 3, where he claimed on Truth Social that he was contemplating stripping comedian Rosie O'Donnell of well, comedian/actor/Talk Show host, Rosie O'Donnell, of her US citizenship. Now, he had made the threat throughout the summer because Rosie O'Donnell, for those of you who don't know, has decided to at least live during the duration of the Trump administration in what fine country?
N. Rodgers: Ireland.
J. Aughenbaugh: Ireland. That's right.
N. Rodgers: Her last name is O'Donnell. Not hugely surprising that she would choose Ireland.
J. Aughenbaugh: Almost immediately, the critics of President Trump claimed that the president cannot strip a person of their citizenship, and that pursuing such a course of action would be a fundamental denial of constitutional protections under the 14th and First Amendment.
N. Rodgers: Under the First Amendment because of her free speech. He doesn't like the things she says. But they have never had a loving relationship. They have hated each other's guts for decades.
J. Aughenbaugh: For decades.
N. Rodgers: Their beef goes back I mean, literally centuries, people. It's just centuries. Like in previous lives they hated each other. There's something about the two of them that is very aggressively Engstfeld.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes.
N. Rodgers: It doesn't surprise me that he would say, Well, if I'm president, this is one of the things I'd want to do. I'd want to get rid of Rosie O'Donnell.
J. Aughenbaugh: What he said, and I got the exact quote, not because I follow the president on Truth Social. Listeners, neither me or I are very active on social media.
N. Rodgers: We're really not. This podcast is pretty much it for our social media. Aughie has a couple of, you have Facebook.
J. Aughenbaugh: I have Facebook, but that's more just to go ahead and post pictures of my kid, whatever, but his quote, because it got reported in all the-
N. Rodgers: Extensively, the quote is, as previously mentioned, we are giving serious thought to taking away Rosie O'Donnell's cizenship. She is not a great American and is, in my opinion, incapable of being so.
N. Rodgers: I do find it fascinating when he posts that he posts in the Royal We. We are considering. Who is We? Because I'm figuring Pam Bondi couldn't care less about Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship, and neither could Marco Rubio, so who is the We? But often Donald Trump refers to himself in that Royal We methodology. We are looking at buying Greenland. Who is We?
J. Aughenbaugh: Nia, let's just put it this way. If the president submitted a paper to me with the way he speaks on social media, I would be putting in the margin. Who is this We?
N. Rodgers: That you speak of. Could you please use a full sentence? Because he often speaks in fragments. Both speaking and writing, he often uses fragmentary language. A lot of his language is actually train of thought. It's just existential train of thought, and then-
J. Aughenbaugh: In linguist.
N. Rodgers: I think sometimes he does it just to see what- he's a troll in-
J. Aughenbaugh: Linguists love him, by the way. Linguists go ahead and point out that all the elites who are critical of the way Donald Trump writes on social media, miss how his speaking is the way many Americans speak and think, which is train of thought. They're not concerned about grammar. That you see this quite a bit in non elite communities. I read linguists all the time. You just like, the president speaks and writes the way many Americans speak and write, which is part of his appeal, but you called him a troll and the funny thing here is O'Donnell and Trump are trolls.
N. Rodgers: Both of them. I was just talking about him because I think he regularly posts things just to see what will happen. Part of me also is, like posting at 2:00 o'clock in the morning. Nobody posts anything wise at 2:00 AM. It's just not a good time. But in this instance, I think they're both trolls.
J. Aughenbaugh: O'Donnell for instance, trolled Trump after she moved to Ireland. Her most recent, if you will, shall we say, thoughts, let's be generous. She was criticized for claiming that the shooter at the Minnesota Catholic Church was a "white guy, Republican mega person, white supremacist." Now, she later apologized, but she added. I assumed, like most shooters, they followed the standard MO and had standard, feelings of NRA loving gun people.
N. Rodgers: Yeah, not really an apology if you follow it up with another insult.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, right?
N. Rodgers: Can we just establish briefly for just a moment, Aughie outside of this issue? There is no standard MO for people who do these violent and destructive things, except that they are all mentally ill in some way. That is the one standard thing that we can say about all of them. Because you would have to be mentally ill in order to decide that the way that you should deal with your feelings is to shoot another person. Like, that's, there's never a justification for that. It's never okay, and it doesn't matter who does it. But it is an interesting thing that people on both sides predict immediately after an event that person's- what their motivations are going to have been. I'm like, I can predict it, too, but I predict it as they were mentally ill.
N. Rodgers: Let because I don't think anything else beyond that matters very much.
J. Aughenbaugh: It's like the assumption of many on the right that the person who assassinated Charlie Kirk had to be awoke.
N. Rodgers: Leftist.
J. Aughenbaugh: Hater.
N. Rodgers: Probably transgendered.
J. Aughenbaugh: Because they seem to crouch that as a common-
N. Rodgers: They've transfixed on that. And my response, like yours, Nia, was, there's a form of mental illness here because if the way you think of processing your feelings is to grab a gun and shoot another person or other people.
N. Rodgers: What I would define as mentally ill.
J. Aughenbaugh: That is characteristic of a number of different mental illnesses, because psychologists would go ahead and tell you there are other healthier ways to process those strong feelings.
J. Aughenbaugh: But that's an aside.
N. Rodgers: She says that and then she gives her a half-hearted thank you. I was grasping for another word and you know the word I was trying to avoid. Aughie prevents me from cursing, which is just like y'all should go buy a lottery ticket.
J. Aughenbaugh: Again, this is one of the values of civil discourse.
N. Rodgers: It is.
J. Aughenbaugh: Because if the two people who are talking with one another can go ahead and help the other person not say something that they may regret later, that's an element of civil discourse. The number of times that Nia listeners, and I can't count the number of times. I don't have enough fingers and toes, which is how I do a lot of my adding and subtracting. The number of times that Nia has gone ahead and saved me from saying something really inflammatory, profane, etc, which would have to go ahead and get bleeped out; the transcript would have a whole bunch of asterisks in number signs is too numerous to count. That's the value of civil discourse, where you're so actively listening that you're like, whoa, don't go there.
N. Rodgers: Don't say it. Can I ask you a question about that, Aughie?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes.
N. Rodgers: Does it matter how inflammatory her language might have been? Is there a way that you can lose your citizenship for First Amendment violation E type things? Is that possible? I know I asked that in a very odd way.
J. Aughenbaugh: Well, linguists, again, would love your speech because you just went ahead and made up at least two or three new words with that question. You added NY to First Amendment E, and I'm like, I don't know if I've ever heard that. Listeners, the purpose of this podcast episode is to, again, explore, can Trump do something?
N. Rodgers: What are the legal possibilities involved in this particular instance?
J. Aughenbaugh: What Nia is pointing to here is there are narrow circumstances in which a naturalized citizen can be stripped of their citizenship. But those circumstances don't include political views or political speech.
N. Rodgers: Naturalized, does that mean also a birth citizen?
J. Aughenbaugh: That's correct.
N. Rodgers: Are there separate rules for naturalized citizens?
J. Aughenbaugh: No.
N. Rodgers: Once you're a citizen, you're it. That's it. You're done?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. The landmark case here is from 1967. The Supreme Court handed down the Afroyim versus Rusk ruling, which declared that US citizens can only lose their citizenship by voluntarily relinquishing it or where citizenship was gained by fraud.
N. Rodgers: If I wasn't born in Charlotte, let's say that I was born in Canada, but my mom slipped over the border and said I was born in Minnesota, and somebody figured that out, they could conceivably bounce my citizenship and say, no, your mom lied about where you were born.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah.
N. Rodgers: That would be a case of birth fraud. Then if I moved here and I said I needed asylum from something, and that was part of my naturalization and it turns out I didn't need that at all, I was perfectly safe in my other country, I just didn't want to be whatever that was, that could be considered fraud. Is that correct?
J. Aughenbaugh: That is correct.
N. Rodgers: That's where fraud would come into it?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. In this case, Beys Afroyim was born in Poland. He applied for US citizenship. The US government sought to strip him of his citizenship after the government learned he had cast a vote in an election in Israel. The Supreme Court said, his status remain protected under the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. Why? Because he never claimed he was a citizen of Israel.
N. Rodgers: He just voted in their election. He committed election fraud potentially in Israel, and that's something they could take up with him.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, that's for the Israeli government.
N. Rodgers: To deal with.
J. Aughenbaugh: Now, there are some twists. We are talking about the law here.
N. Rodgers: The court.
J. Aughenbaugh: Nia, as you just pointed out, naturalized citizens can lose their citizenship if they gained their citizenship by lying on their citizenship application. Again, fraud voids any legal benefit that you may have gained because of the fraud. That's a central tenet in most Western legal citizens.
N. Rodgers: If you go into a car dealership that gives deals to veterans and you say you're a veteran and you produce paperwork that you're a veteran and they give you a deal, and it turns out you made that paperwork up, then they could repossess your car or they could come back and recharge your loan in a different way because you lied about being a veteran to get that benefit?
J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. Now, citizens can voluntarily surrender their citizenship, just like they can waive many of their legal rights. The classic example since 1966 is, you have the right to remain silent when you interact with law enforcement. Do many Americans waive that right?
N. Rodgers: They do involuntarily by continuing to say things like, I didn't do it. I was across town. I was with my friend Bob. They keep talking.
J. Aughenbaugh: Or they just signed the Miranda waiver, and at that point, they can be asked anything, because they voluntarily waive the right. Now, in US Code, there is a listing of actions that would suggest the intent to surrender your citizenship.
N. Rodgers: That's been enumerated?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, it has been enumerated.
N. Rodgers: I'm assuming if you move to France and you say, I am now French and you petition the French government to be French, then you are basically saying, I want to give up being an American because I want to be French?
J. Aughenbaugh: That is one. In fact, that's the first one. You obtain naturalization in a foreign country as an adult.
N. Rodgers: Where you can sign the legal paperwork and you can do all this stuff, not as a kid.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. Number 2, you make a formal declaration of allegiance to another country as an adult. Even if you go ahead and make the application, you could lose your US citizenship. Why? Because you put it in a legal document of your intent to become a citizen, in this hypothetical, of France. Three, you serve in the armed forces of another country.
N. Rodgers: You join the French Foreign Legion.
J. Aughenbaugh: Particularly if those armed forces of the other country are engaged in hostilities against the United States.
N. Rodgers: But I don't think the French Foreign Legions ever fought the United States, but okay.
J. Aughenbaugh: If as part of your employment status to work in a government of another country, you acquire nationality in that other country.
N. Rodgers: You joined their state department so that you can be a diplomat for France. Well, you're no longer an American citizen if you're a diplomat for France.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. You make in the United States a formal written denunciation of nationality.
N. Rodgers: I'm dramatically stating in writing that I do not want to be an American citizen anymore.
J. Aughenbaugh: Let's just say, for instance, Rosie O'Donnell, when she applied to go live in Ireland.
N. Rodgers: If she wanted to make it permanent, she could give up her American citizenship and apply for Irish citizenship.
J. Aughenbaugh: Because she's not on a tourist visa right now living in Ireland. Being convicted of committing an act of treason against or attempting to force the overthrow or bear arms against the United States.
N. Rodgers: If you were a spy for the Russians and they figured it out, or even worse, spy for the French and they figured it out; I'm not saying that's worse, I'm kidding, and you were convicted of that, they could strip you of your citizenship because you've shown treason or disloyalty, or whatever you want to call it?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes.
N. Rodgers: That's an interesting thing. I didn't realize. I wonder if that happened in those cases, that guy in the '70s.
J. Aughenbaugh: Well, sometimes that's what the federal government will go ahead and charge somebody with.
N. Rodgers: It's treason.
J. Aughenbaugh: It's treason.
N. Rodgers: But do they automatically strip you of your nationality? Does that have to be a separate thing that they do?
J. Aughenbaugh: Well, it's a separate court proceeding. But if you really upset a particular, shall we say, presidential administration, and they've prosecuted you for treason and you've been found guilty and you're given a sentence in a federal prison, it's not unusual for then that presidential administration to follow up with, we're going to strip you of your citizenship.
N. Rodgers: Then I guess once you get released, you go live in the country you were spying for or you go do something.
J. Aughenbaugh: If they're willing to have you.
N. Rodgers: Well, that's true because you haven't shown particular trustworthiness, and you also didn't get away with it.
J. Aughenbaugh: Well, you're damaged goods.
N. Rodgers: But so far, Rosie O'Donnell has not done any of these things that we are aware of.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. My prediction here is, I don't think Rosie O'Donnell was engaged in any of those acts. Again, American law, particularly the first and 14th Amendments, seemingly would protect somebody like Rosie O'Donnell, who is, one, quite critical of the current president. Let's face it, Rosie O'Donnell, when she had her own talk show was quite critical of many of her fellow Americans, she had an infamous interview with Tom Selleck when Tom Selleck was active in the NRA, where she basically went ahead and said that anybody in the United States who's a member of the NRA doesn't love the country. I'm like, okay. But that's what she does. She's a troll.
N. Rodgers: She's a troll and I think part of the reason they dislike each other is because they both do that thing. They take whatever position and then they run to the extreme with it, in part to get a reaction.
N. Rodgers: You mentioned something several times there that I'd like to point out. People have to voluntarily unless the last one, unless they are found guilty of treason. But all the others, they have to voluntarily choose to be a citizen of whatever other places you're going to be a citizen.
J. Aughenbaugh: Affirmative legal option.
N. Rodgers: You have to opt out of being an American. Your automatic opt in is being born or being naturalized, and then you're you have to actively opt out. I no longer want to be this.
J. Aughenbaugh: Rosie O'Donnell is not taking any of those affirmative legal steps, Nia.
N. Rodgers: We think it's unlikely that she will.
J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. I find it highly unlikely. Because in part, she's doing what the First Amendment was designed to protect.
N. Rodgers: The king is a fink. You're allowed to say that. You're allowed to say these inflammatory things so long as you don't say, well, in the United States, actually, proving what is it? Slander is a lot harder than it is in other countries. Because here, we're like, if you're a public figure, you're taking it on the chin. If you choose to be president, people are going to mock you. People are going to say things about you because that's I mean, Jimmy Kimmel was gone for three days, and then he was returned back to air because the uproar had a lot to do with, hey, he has the right to say, and then other people can but with their feet by not watching.
J. Aughenbaugh: In the case of Jimmy Kimmel, Nia, remember, it was ABC who suspended him.
N. Rodgers: Is it ABC or Disney? Does Disney own ABC? I guess Disney owns ABC. Disney owns everything. They probably own this podcast and we don't know it. But it wouldn't surprise me if we got a cease and desist.
J. Aughenbaugh: If that is the case, then I'm asking for a pay raise, Nia.
N. Rodgers: That's right.
J. Aughenbaugh: I want to go on the record right now saying, if that's the case, I want some more Jack.
N. Rodgers: Yeah. We're not owned in whole or in part by anybody. Nobody wants to take responsibility for us.
J. Aughenbaugh: The other thing I should note here about this claim made by President Trump is there's one other relevant Supreme Court precedent case of Trop versus Dulles from 1958. The United States government attempted to strip Albert Trop of his citizenship after he escaped from an Army stockade in Casablanca, Morocco, where we had a military base at the time. He turned himself in the next day, and the government argued that since the country was engaged in a war and Trop was dishonorably discharged, it could revoke his status as a US citizen, even though he was a natural born citizen. In that case, Chief Justice Erl Warren, writing for the majority, argued that such a punishment ran afoul of the Eighth Amendment and constituted "a form of punishment" more primitive than torture since it amounts to total destruction of the individual's status in an organized society.
N. Rodgers: Yeah. Because if he isn't trying to join someone else and you make him not a citizen, then he's not anything. In the world in which we currently live, in order to travel anywhere, you must be from someplace. You have to have a passport from somewhere in order to allow you to go somewhere else. That's interesting. If you strip someone of their absolute national identity, what would they be? Since the Romans, people have had essentially country identity or regional identity.
J. Aughenbaugh: Because you get rights, but also protection because you are the citizen.
N. Rodgers: Pax Romana.
J. Aughenbaugh: This goes back to at least for Western democracies, John Locke social contract. Because you give up certain freedoms, what you get in part, is protection by the state because you are a member of that state.
N. Rodgers: Can I just say for Trop? He breaks out of his dockade. Then he realizes he's in Morocco. Morocco and he's like, oh, this was probably a bad idea, right? I don't speak the language. I don't know anybody. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even know where I am on the globe. Can I come back in, please?
N. Rodgers: They're like, sure, you can come back in, but boy, are you going to be sorry? Either that or maybe there was a great love story we know nothing about? You know what I mean? Where he was like, I have to see her one more time or whatever. But they speak to dumb.
J. Aughenbaugh: It's the classic, if you will, dictionary definition of an oh, crap moment.
N. Rodgers: Right. It's the dog that catches the car in its teeth and then is like, now what do I do?
J. Aughenbaugh: Bottom line, listeners, if Nia and I were offering a prediction, Trump may wish to challenge Rosie O'Donnell, but there's no indication that the Supreme Court would seriously consider him stripping her of citizenship. There's too much Supreme Court precedent, and the code, the US statute, concerning renouncing of citizenship is pretty clear on this. Again, this is one of those rare examples where the United States Congress was pretty darn clear. You have to take affirmative steps to renounce your citizenship. Rosie O'Donnell hasn't done that. It might be critical, particularly of the current political precedent, etc., but she's not renouncing her citizenship, and you have to do it in a legal manner on an application for citizenship in another country, an application for a government job in another country, wanting to go ahead and fight against the United States in another country's military. Those are all things that require you to state on legal documents, I am against the United States. She hasn't done that.
N. Rodgers: The reason Trop comes close is because when he actually did this was in 1944, when we were at war in Morocco.. That's why they were like, we're at war? What are you doing? You can't just go join the other side. I doubt he was trying to join the other side. He probably was just trying to get out of fighting for anybody.
J. Aughenbaugh: The case took 14 years to get to the Supreme Court.
N. Rodgers: Which again tells you the speed with which things. Part of me thinks if Donald Trump did try to take Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship, he won't be president when that's decided. The point would be moot at that. You know what I mean? I'm sorry to say, but given his age, if 14 years passed, he might not even be alive.
J. Aughenbaugh: Nia, at the time the Supreme Court would take the case, the president of the United States would probably be an undergraduate in college right now.
N. Rodgers: Partly what's amusing here to me is, and this I want to end on a happy note because we don't always get to end these on a happy note. But partly I'm amused by, in some ways, she wins when he comments on this as a president. Do you what I mean? You have so many other things that you could be doing that you could be saying, that you could be talking about, and yet she is living rent free in some part of your brain.
J. Aughenbaugh: Moreover, every time she mentions him.
N. Rodgers: He's living rent free in her brain.
J. Aughenbaugh: You guys need each other.
J. Aughenbaugh: This is one of those needy pathological dysfunctional relationships where two people in the relationship need each other. They don't understand how or why they do, but they do. This guy has made a career both in the private and public sectors of getting ahead because other people keep on talking about him.
N. Rodgers: Because in his world, no press is bad press. Any press is good press. Anytime you can have your name being talked about, they're not talking about somebody else.
J. Aughenbaugh: That's right.
N. Rodgers: For him, that's a win. I find these two particularly amusing. I was glad we got to do this one in part because it's way more light hearted. The ones where people are getting fired, that's really stressful and scary and hard. Even if he did kick her out of the United States, the next president will let her back in. You know what I mean? This isn't a thing that can even stand, even if he did manage somehow to do it, which he's not going to. It is comforting to me that I would have to actively choose to be not an American citizen in order for my citizenship to be revoked. I know that in the next season, you and I will be talking about the court and aren't they taking up the birthright citizenship question?
J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. The US Supreme Court is beginning to fill its fall docket as we are recording this episode. The court has already announced it is looking at Trump's executive order that would change the definition of birthright citizenship. We will definitely cover that. There are a number of other Trump initiatives.
N. Rodgers: You're going to end up in the court?
J. Aughenbaugh: The court has already agreed to take them. Whether or not Trump can fire Federal Reserve Board governor.
N. Rodgers: We're going to see some of these questions finally be settled by the court. Probably not until June. Before the Madison and leave town. Listeners need to know. Aughie always says to me, I'm going to have a restful summer, an ice kicker. Then the court releases 900 of their opinions in June. Like, they don't release anything along the way. They don't tell us where they're going. Don't telegraph anything. Then in June, they hit us with 10 or 15 serious cases that are making a big difference in real life world things and Aughie goes, then he's got to write and he's got to think and he's got to figure out what all those things mean. He's got to read all the other guys who are writing the legal opinion. Aughie, there's this group of people that he consults with and writes with and talks to about all of these constitutional questions. At least it's not going to be anytime soon that there will be a summer of relaxation for you, maybe the first summer after you're retired. But the core keeps holding on to things and then releasing them in June, because then they want to be gone so they don't have to deal with the follow-up.
J. Aughenbaugh: That's when they go ahead and do their cushy summer constitutional law teaching gigs in some remote European village.
N. Rodgers: Where they can enjoy the alps and ski or whatever.
J. Aughenbaugh: The rest of us are hanging back in the United States. We're like, really?
N. Rodgers: Scrambling to figure everything out.
J. Aughenbaugh: This is what you left us. Hey, thanks, guys. Anyways, thanks, Nia.
N. Rodgers: Thank you, Aughie.