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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00;00;12;05 - 00;00;26;06
Dori
Before we begin, this episode covers a quadruple homicide, including details about the crime scene and the victim's final hours. Please take care while listening.
00;00;26;08 - 00;00;37;00
Stacey
In the early morning hours of November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were found stabbed to death in an off campus house in Moscow, Idaho.
00;00;37;03 - 00;00;45;25
Dori
Madison, Kaylee, Zanna and Ethan, all in their early 20s, all with their whole lives ahead of them.
00;00;45;28 - 00;00;52;22
Stacey
For nearly seven weeks, the killer walked free while the country watched, speculated, and waited.
00;00;52;25 - 00;01;04;09
Dori
Today, we're talking about Netflix's new three part docu series, The Idaho Murders College Nightmare, from director Skye Borgman and executive producer Joe Berlinger.
00;01;04;12 - 00;01;15;11
Stacey
The series had unprecedented access body cam footage, texts and interviews with the victim's loved ones, and it deliberately takes a victim forward approach.
00;01;15;14 - 00;01;28;00
Dori
That's an intentional choice. The filmmakers have said they honestly would have preferred not to mention the killer at all, but felt there was a need to explain as much as anyone can, how this happened.
00;01;28;02 - 00;01;45;06
Stacey
In July 2025, Ryan took a plea deal and pleaded guilty to all four murders. And we'll get into that in the in the show. He was sentenced to four consecutive life terms without parole. Avoiding the death penalty. We still don't know his motive. Nobody knows why he did it.
00;01;45;08 - 00;01;52;14
Dori
So today we're breaking down the case and the documentary itself. As always, we'll get into the hows and whys.
00;01;52;17 - 00;01;55;15
Stacey
And let's get into it.
00;01;55;18 - 00;01;59;05
Dr. John Mayer
Outside my window.
00;01;59;08 - 00;02;09;20
He lives on the brain of. When the wind blows in.
00;02;09;22 - 00;02;27;28
Dr. John Mayer
I feel pain every day.
00;02;28;01 - 00;02;54;14
Dori
So I previously watched a documentary on this that was nowhere near as good as this one. I really, really like was enamored with this one. It kept my emotions high, but the other one, yeah, the other one was more of like, an overview of everything. It was kind of like one of those, like ABC.
00;02;54;14 - 00;02;57;11
Stacey
Yeah, like it's just like a Nightline, right?
00;02;57;14 - 00;02;58;00
Dori
Yeah.
00;02;58;02 - 00;02;59;24
Stacey
Right. Right, right. But it was.
00;02;59;25 - 00;03;30;23
Dori
Watching. Yeah. Watching this one. Like my heart was like, right. Like I kind of like put myself into the, the, the the survivor girls, the Morgan. And I forget the other one's name, but the ones who survived, like being surviving of this and being a part of this, I don't know how how you one as a young, young person.
00;03;30;25 - 00;03;46;25
Stacey
And how scary is it that Morgan was in the house, apparently in her room, and nothing happened to her, which was a little like strange to me, but I'm not pinning anything on her. I'm not saying she had anything to do with it. It's just strange that they avoided her.
00;03;46;27 - 00;04;06;23
Dori
Well, and also to, you know, me, all I kept thinking about was the dog. When the when the cops, then when the cops said, we're going to, we're going to bring the dog to the pound or to the impound. But he was a little like your dog and I will say no. And and we'll do well in an impound.
00;04;06;24 - 00;04;11;11
Stacey
No, no. And what did didn't somebody end up taking the dog.
00;04;11;14 - 00;04;14;19
Dori
I think well, I mean hopefully somebody now. Okay.
00;04;14;26 - 00;04;23;29
Stacey
But I feel I feel like I know, I know trust me. I mean this is a defenseless creature who obviously survived this horrific event.
00;04;24;01 - 00;04;44;02
Dori
But I think you're right. I think you're right by saying like that. He didn't like she locked the door. And Morgan, the survivor who was in the home at the time. And that he didn't go after her. Here's the thing. He doesn't seem like he's a slight guy right I don't know I mean he was wielding a knife.
00;04;44;02 - 00;04;46;06
Dori
They were killed. Bye bye.
00;04;46;12 - 00;04;47;04
Stacey
Bye. Yeah.
00;04;47;04 - 00;05;08;09
Dori
Yeah they were stabbed more. So I don't like I like you know, your adrenaline, his adrenaline is probably all pumped up. And that's why he and they were sleeping too. So that's why he was able to kill all of them the way that he did. But if you're in the home listening to all this and.
00;05;08;09 - 00;05;20;27
Stacey
And I, Yeah, I think that that is, straight out of a horror movie, you know what I mean? It's like you're hearing something and there's nothing you can do, so you just have to wait and hope you're not the next person.
00;05;20;29 - 00;05;24;00
Dori
So what else? A controversy. Sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
00;05;24;01 - 00;05;29;22
Stacey
No, I have nothing else to say. I was just cleaning my glasses. What was the controversy? They look.
00;05;29;22 - 00;05;36;09
Dori
Very creepy. What was the thank you for? See that she didn't call the like, the people. Yeah, like why I.
00;05;36;09 - 00;05;49;08
Stacey
Don't know, but then they said, you know, she didn't call immediately 911. And I think that that is always a red flag. But also maybe she was in shock, or scared.
00;05;49;15 - 00;05;52;03
Dori
Or like the he'd hear her.
00;05;52;06 - 00;06;14;18
Stacey
Or. Yeah. I mean, who knows? I don't really know how long she was in there. I bet Doctor John has more. You know, Doctor John usually binges the show the night before we have a podcast, because then it gets really fresh in his mind, and then he has all his questions. But let me ask you something. Does it make you feel when you see these videos of these beautiful kids?
00;06;14;18 - 00;06;36;22
Stacey
I mean, you know, dancing and having fun and being in college and just, you know, and then you think somebody saw somebody at one point, but they stayed in the house. That whole thing scares the crap out of me of a kid in college right now. And all I thought about when I brought him to school was, oh my God, you're just so vulnerable.
00;06;36;25 - 00;07;03;21
Dori
Yeah, well, and, you know, one of the things was that they didn't go in and nothing has really gone into it. Like we said in the intro that you so eloquently always write, Stacy writes all of our intros. The fact that we don't know his motive, he, he's and I'm sure that the doctor, will have insight into this, but the fact that.
00;07;03;23 - 00;07;14;24
Dori
Why was he obsessed with these kids? Maybe one of the the girls or Ethan or, you know, like.
00;07;14;28 - 00;07;35;09
Stacey
Where did where did it start? Like, what was the what was the impetus for him to become interested and then follow through with it? What was it about this? And that's the thing usually in our cases that we look at, we can see, you know, a motive or a pattern or this to me is no, it just seems really random.
00;07;35;12 - 00;07;39;19
Stacey
Yeah. Even though it had to be premeditated that he had to know that they you.
00;07;39;20 - 00;08;07;21
Dori
Did all the searching, they saw the search for his search history. Right. Like the cops got all of that. The one, the one young lady who was speaking about how she was in school with him and the, like, serial killer class with him, you know, like, that would also be, I'd, you know, like a moment where you find out that the guy that you kind of thought was creepy in your class.
00;08;07;23 - 00;08;08;25
Stacey
Is legitimately.
00;08;08;25 - 00;08;45;22
Dori
Who always asks the question to always was so interested in the, you know, in right. What the what the instructor was saying and always had the questions, you know, it's like, oh, it was that guy. Like, of course it was that guy. So yeah, like he did something snapping him. I think my biggest thing is really, truly trying to understand was he trying to go after just one of them, or was it the group, the house that maybe he was?
00;08;45;22 - 00;09;00;09
Dori
And again, I'm just spitballing here. This probably isn't the case. Like he was turned away for a party or somebody when he was like, because he was a T.A. at the school, right. And then he also went to school. There would be a T.A.. I thought it was a T.A..
00;09;00;09 - 00;09;01;18
Stacey
I thought he was a to that.
00;09;01;19 - 00;09;04;04
Dori
He's a little older. I think it was he's 28.
00;09;04;04 - 00;09;22;13
Stacey
I think he was a grad, a grad student, wasn't he? Yeah, in the grad school. I mean, why I just don't understand why somebody would would do something, you know, that's in school pursuing a degree would do all that. I mean, obviously that there's more to it than that, but you know what I mean? It's like it's just like a guy, you know?
00;09;22;13 - 00;09;29;17
Stacey
Yeah, I, I want to say somebody dissed him and made him mad, but he already had to be mentally ill by that point. Probably.
00;09;29;17 - 00;09;46;01
Dori
I mean, also, it was also like heart wrenching, but also fascinating to hear from, like the loved ones, the parent, the, was it T.C. sister, the one who, like, did all that investigative work?
00;09;46;01 - 00;09;48;17
Stacey
I love that, yeah, that was cool.
00;09;48;20 - 00;09;57;00
Dori
But I have a question about her. Did she lose a lot of weight? Like from the breakfast you were? Because I know you worry.
00;09;57;00 - 00;10;04;18
Stacey
Is this seen as a brother zoonosis? I mean, the. Oh, wait, she was sister. Are we talking?
00;10;04;21 - 00;10;09;12
Dori
Maybe it was. No, not. No, not. Not saying a sister.
00;10;09;15 - 00;10;10;00
Stacey
Okay.
00;10;10;00 - 00;10;18;05
Dori
It was, let me go to my list. Was it Kaylee's?
00;10;18;07 - 00;10;19;25
Dr. John Mayer
It was Kaylee. Sister.
00;10;19;27 - 00;10;24;01
Dori
Yeah. She's like, I love these. I love the these here.
00;10;24;06 - 00;10;25;09
Dr. John Mayer
Hello.
00;10;25;11 - 00;10;27;21
Stacey
Where we come from? Bury. Oh my gosh.
00;10;27;21 - 00;10;31;06
Dori
He's like oh it's the it's like an aura with.
00;10;31;08 - 00;10;31;11
Dr. John Mayer
The.
00;10;31;11 - 00;10;42;23
Dori
Greenery. Do you remember a Shaq. Do you remember Horror Shaq and Welcome Back Kotter when he was like I got an aura. It's almost like we just got up or I got ocean all there.
00;10;42;23 - 00;10;44;10
Dr. John Mayer
You guys, come on, come on.
00;10;44;12 - 00;10;49;26
Dori
Come on, come on. It is burning Man. It is, it is Burning Man season. So maybe.
00;10;50;01 - 00;10;51;16
Stacey
Next season, but I.
00;10;51;23 - 00;10;55;08
Dori
We're okay. So it was Cassie's sister.
00;10;55;10 - 00;10;56;06
Dr. John Mayer
Kaylee.
00;10;56;06 - 00;11;35;10
Dori
Kaylee. Sorry. Kaylee. This man Kaylee. Sister who had who was doing a lot of investigative reporting on her investigate investigations on her own. Yeah, but I do have that thinking that she lost weight from the time that she initially was interviewed to when the sentencing happened, and they never convicted, it never went to trial. But I think she she was the same person, but that she looked so extremely different to me.
00;11;35;12 - 00;11;37;04
Dori
But kudos to her grade.
00;11;37;06 - 00;11;50;09
Stacey
But I mean, listen, I'm the first person to notice that, okay? And I won't be I'm not you know, I'm not sugarcoat. I really I really would have noticed that I don't remember it. So I'm looking okay that.
00;11;50;11 - 00;11;54;12
Dori
So maybe the doctor who keeps people keeps peeping in. He'll be able.
00;11;54;12 - 00;11;56;09
Stacey
To take a peep. And, John.
00;11;56;11 - 00;11;57;17
Dori
These are people. John.
00;11;57;22 - 00;12;01;27
Stacey
He's a peeping John. Should we let John out of the green room with his toast? I mean.
00;12;01;27 - 00;12;10;27
Dori
He's already had he already has his mouth out, so why not have.
00;12;11;00 - 00;12;20;06
Dr. John Mayer
I don't know if I'm ready. And our crack producer, you know, didn't have donuts in the the green room. He's got me toast.
00;12;20;09 - 00;12;22;19
Stacey
He's got to be choosers. Okay.
00;12;22;21 - 00;12;23;28
Dori
Well, no more.
00;12;24;01 - 00;12;26;01
Stacey
Story, Dorian. What is anything?
00;12;26;03 - 00;12;34;15
Dr. John Mayer
You know what his comment was? Since we're doing video, he says, oh, the camera puts 10 pounds on you, so you know, you better stop eating all those sweets and stuff.
00;12;34;16 - 00;12;37;12
Dori
But you have a lot of butter on that toast so that you.
00;12;37;16 - 00;12;41;13
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah, you know, screw you, Jeremy. Hey, Jeremy.
00;12;41;16 - 00;12;43;02
Stacey
It's good that.
00;12;43;05 - 00;12;45;11
Dori
That toast, though, looks really good. I'm not gonna.
00;12;45;13 - 00;12;45;23
Stacey
I love.
00;12;45;23 - 00;12;47;15
Dr. John Mayer
Toast. It's a special.
00;12;47;18 - 00;12;53;00
Dori
Week. You can you. I know you're going to come in and talk about like, obviously.
00;12;53;02 - 00;12;53;22
Dr. John Mayer
I'm in it.
00;12;53;22 - 00;12;59;20
Dori
Okay I know, yes, but what can you just. Can you just confirm? Did you notice that with Kaylee, sister?
00;12;59;20 - 00;13;04;14
Dr. John Mayer
The one is I, you know, as soon as you said that. Dory. I'm going. Oh, yeah, I know.
00;13;04;14 - 00;13;11;17
Dori
Okay. Thank you. Okay, so I wasn't just because I did. I also watched this a little while ago as well, so. Okay.
00;13;11;19 - 00;13;12;20
Dr. John Mayer
And. Oh yeah.
00;13;12;24 - 00;13;16;16
Stacey
She lost 20 pounds.
00;13;16;18 - 00;13;18;25
Dr. John Mayer
Is that verified or. I mean.
00;13;18;26 - 00;13;20;00
Stacey
I just looked it up.
00;13;20;03 - 00;13;21;28
Dori
That's what the machine says.
00;13;22;04 - 00;13;24;20
Dr. John Mayer
I mean, Google has detail like that. Wow.
00;13;24;22 - 00;13;33;22
Dori
Well, they have Lake of America now. So you know, they obviously also bought let me.
00;13;33;24 - 00;13;46;06
Dr. John Mayer
Let me make a couple of comments. You know, first of all, I was all I was all over that, Dory and and I'm going and and and fat she I forget, I think her name was Leah or Somalia.
00;13;46;09 - 00;13;49;14
Stacey
I just look yeah. Then I got a virus. It said I got it. Yeah. So I took.
00;13;49;14 - 00;14;16;04
Dr. John Mayer
It off and, I said, whoa. She became very attractive. As a, as a woman, you know, and she lost weight. And also she put more makeup on. She had different clothing. I mean, she transformed herself and in a way, and this is probably skipping a little too far ahead, but her victim statement and to, Brian Cole.
00;14;16;05 - 00;14;19;05
Dr. John Mayer
But how do you pronounce the name Cole Burger? Cole?
00;14;19;05 - 00;14;20;10
Dori
Cole burger.
00;14;20;12 - 00;14;24;15
Dr. John Mayer
Burger wasn't that dynamic phenomenal.
00;14;24;18 - 00;14;27;26
Dori
And the dad? The one dad, she went.
00;14;28;04 - 00;14;33;23
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah, it did for the audience to know the dad turned the podium away from.
00;14;33;23 - 00;14;36;15
Stacey
Oh wait, he faced him head.
00;14;36;15 - 00;14;40;08
Dr. John Mayer
On, faced Brian and said, I'm going to look right at you.
00;14;40;08 - 00;14;58;02
Dori
And didn't Brian, though, John, Brian seemed and I know a lot of killers kind of like probably just check out or they don't care. Or what do you think was in his mind that when all these people are speaking to him like, well.
00;14;58;05 - 00;15;22;00
Dr. John Mayer
Again, I'm almost hesitating. The answer is, but I'm going to, because it's kind of the the end of the comments that I was going to make. But, I've been in any number of these victim statement, episodes and trials and it's it's gut wrenching. I mean, I'm the expert, I'm supposed to be the cool doctor, etc..
00;15;22;06 - 00;15;36;12
Dr. John Mayer
They're neutral. And every one, every time I'm in that situation, it's just, you know, it brings tears to my eyes. And it's just it's so overwhelmingly powerful.
00;15;36;15 - 00;15;42;00
Stacey
But that kind of loss is so powerful. It's so, I mean.
00;15;42;02 - 00;16;13;11
Dr. John Mayer
It's it, you know, was said during the documentary, which the documentary was so well done that, you know, you know, how how do you cope with that kind of loss? But these victim statements are, so gut wrenching and powerful, almost every time. Because you're getting getting family, you're getting friends, you're getting victims sometimes to say how their lives were changed by these crimes and these criminals.
00;16;13;14 - 00;16;35;27
Dr. John Mayer
But I will tell you, and this is what I want to get in. But but, Brian, here is that probably 70% of the time you get a reaction from the criminal, from the perpetrator, you know, some kind of reaction. Did you see how stoic Brian? Oh, I get so thank you.
00;16;36;00 - 00;16;37;15
Dori
Oh, you mean still as.
00;16;37;15 - 00;16;43;14
Dr. John Mayer
Though it's like you think you could hear my oh, my. He. Listen, wait.
00;16;43;14 - 00;16;51;00
Dori
I also have to say to the John just right. And he's the cool doctor. You you're the Fonzie of doctor.
00;16;51;03 - 00;16;59;13
Stacey
You're the fancy of doctors. You are not fancy in Arrested Development, though. He's a terrible lawyer to be. If anybody knows, Henry Winkler is.
00;16;59;19 - 00;17;00;04
Dori
Blah.
00;17;00;04 - 00;17;01;15
Stacey
Blah blah blah.
00;17;01;16 - 00;17;03;25
Dr. John Mayer
Blah blah way before my time.
00;17;03;27 - 00;17;04;11
Stacey
Blah blah blah.
00;17;04;11 - 00;17;29;19
Dr. John Mayer
How stoic that, Vivian was doing that thing. Which leads me to do my fake diagnosis. Remember, I can't think okay, in the media, but, I have some things to say, but we'll get to that later. But, you know, talking about the, the there was, I think there was Caylee sister Aleah. It was her sister.
00;17;29;21 - 00;17;31;00
Stacey
Yeah, it's her sister.
00;17;31;02 - 00;17;58;11
Dr. John Mayer
And so powerful. I thought the amazing message for our audience was how she said, I am not going to cry. I am going to hold my emotion because you don't deserve that. You know, you I'm not going to give you the power, but I'm going to tell you who you are. And she just ripped him a new can't say.
00;17;58;13 - 00;17;59;23
Dori
A whole like, thank.
00;17;59;23 - 00;18;01;11
Dr. John Mayer
You.
00;18;01;13 - 00;18;04;17
Dori
I can say it. She moved it worse.
00;18;04;20 - 00;18;39;08
Dr. John Mayer
But yes. Oh let's talk. But you brought up some really excellent points and first of all, excellent documentary. But interestingly, for our purposes, it was so full of police procedural, which was done so excellently. And the police and the FBI's, work in this case was just exceptional. So the documentary really focused audience on, the, the police procedurals and of course, gave us a reason for existence.
00;18;39;11 - 00;18;44;11
Dr. John Mayer
I was just going to say the French term for that, but I know you guys would both correct me.
00;18;44;14 - 00;18;45;18
Stacey
What is the French?
00;18;45;20 - 00;18;48;10
Dr. John Mayer
What is the song and is it?
00;18;48;10 - 00;18;50;05
Dori
I think.
00;18;50;07 - 00;18;53;04
Dr. John Mayer
Wait, no, it's heinous.
00;18;53;06 - 00;18;55;19
Stacey
Heinous, historic. It's this is my favorite.
00;18;55;20 - 00;18;59;13
Dr. John Mayer
Oh, you got, you know, you got my my, my my two vulnerabilities there.
00;18;59;14 - 00;19;04;15
Stacey
And sorry that I'm wrestling with my dog on the side here. I'm trying to make it seem like I'm not, but.
00;19;04;17 - 00;19;05;25
Dr. John Mayer
Okay, it's pretty obvious.
00;19;05;25 - 00;19;08;28
Stacey
Yeah. It's okay. Sorry. Okay.
00;19;09;00 - 00;19;33;29
Dr. John Mayer
But excellent documentary. But again, giving us our reasons that are a tool that we exist to get more into deeply how wise and, and I think we're going to draw out a lot of information for the audience. Why does this happen? What's going on? Etc.. But a very good documentary. But if you like police work,
00;19;34;02 - 00;19;43;09
Dori
This is one of the policemen who who was speaking throughout, who kind of kept it going. You have his name, I'm sure.
00;19;43;11 - 00;19;47;20
Dr. John Mayer
Anthony Dellinger, the chief of police.
00;19;47;22 - 00;20;04;18
Dori
He was great. I thought he's greatly kept the story moving from the very, like, knowledgeable. You know, I was like, I found that very fascinating, and I, I really did really like this documentary a lot as well.
00;20;04;21 - 00;20;06;00
Stacey
And I loved it.
00;20;06;02 - 00;20;34;11
Dr. John Mayer
This is the second time in all of our episodes where I thought it was very powerful. Where were Anthony, the chief of police? He had that moment where he talked about how this affected him. Remember we saw that in another one of our episodes where the police officer in charge of the case talked about how deeply his life was affected by this case and, and all the details.
00;20;34;11 - 00;20;37;19
Dr. John Mayer
And I think that's so powerful for the audience.
00;20;37;23 - 00;20;42;15
Dori
That was in the maternal instinct one where the guy all right. That one. Right.
00;20;42;15 - 00;20;45;16
Stacey
He said it was the worst thing I'd ever seen, you know. Right.
00;20;45;18 - 00;20;55;28
Dr. John Mayer
So I think you I think what a lesson for our audience too, is that, you know, policemen are not robots. You know, they they they have feelings. They they get involved with the case and.
00;20;56;01 - 00;21;17;17
Stacey
Yeah. And it's like everything else people find, people find fault in people who are scientists or police. And if they make a mistake or they lead you in the wrong direction and then they just discount that, do you know what I mean? That phenomenon of, like, you know, being so judgmental of something. Yeah, that they can't do themselves.
00;21;17;19 - 00;21;17;27
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah.
00;21;18;03 - 00;21;19;25
Dori
And so what why do you.
00;21;19;29 - 00;21;26;24
Stacey
Have an idea of why he did this? Do you have any feeling about that like I do what was.
00;21;26;24 - 00;21;52;14
Dr. John Mayer
I do okay I do first of all, again, you know what? I'm kind of proud of myself on on our hard Candy episodes, it seems like we just get a little bit of a tease from the background. And that tease leads me to a lot of the clinical insights of what's going on with this person. So here, here's the tease.
00;21;52;14 - 00;22;20;09
Dr. John Mayer
Some of his background. He was a very overweight kid. Okay. He was he became obsessed as a kid with his still is probably around middle school that look like some of the pictures they didn't have any, narrative on on this on the documentary, but they showed pictures of him, as a very overly kid and then kind of transitioning into losing his weight.
00;22;20;11 - 00;22;29;20
Dr. John Mayer
And it seemed like he was about middle school, but he became angry and obsessed with what he looked like. You know.
00;22;29;20 - 00;22;32;11
Dori
He that like a Jared the carrot.
00;22;32;18 - 00;22;37;26
Stacey
In your mind, your mind literally was in I was about to say, it's Jared, but different.
00;22;37;27 - 00;22;38;16
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah.
00;22;38;19 - 00;22;40;20
Stacey
Yeah. It's kind of the same brain.
00;22;40;23 - 00;23;09;24
Dr. John Mayer
That same kind of dynamic. You know, I don't like myself. I, I don't want to be in this scan. You could you could almost feel his disgust with himself. And that fuels anger and and fuels psychological disturbance. So there's there's the roots. He then becomes addicted to heroin. Another little tease, a little sweet.
00;23;09;27 - 00;23;12;18
Dori
This that he did to heroin.
00;23;12;24 - 00;23;14;21
Stacey
He did explains a lot, actually.
00;23;14;27 - 00;23;18;11
Dori
We when he was as an adult or as a.
00;23;18;11 - 00;23;22;13
Dr. John Mayer
No, probably within his teen years, it looked like, oh.
00;23;22;13 - 00;23;23;20
Dori
I missed. Yeah.
00;23;23;22 - 00;23;46;27
Dr. John Mayer
Not a lot of narrative on this in the documentary, but pictures and they showed they they made one about three words saying, oh, he was addicted to heroin. And then he went into rehab. I suspect he got addicted to drugs because he was also, again, trying to lose weight. And, that led to heroin maintain. Yeah. Which, by the way, heroin.
00;23;46;29 - 00;23;52;12
Dr. John Mayer
I don't want to advocate this to the audience, but it is pretty effective at making we're.
00;23;52;12 - 00;23;54;11
Dori
Not promoting heroin, we're not.
00;23;54;11 - 00;23;58;12
Dr. John Mayer
Promoting heroin and GP's work just the same.
00;23;58;12 - 00;24;04;21
Stacey
But why? Why do you think heroin. Is it because you get a lot of energy? Or if you lose your appetite for heroin?
00;24;04;21 - 00;24;15;10
Dr. John Mayer
No. In fact, it's the opposite. You don't, you don't. Do not energize, but you lose your you lose your appetite. You get like a like a zombie anti-hero, heroin addict.
00;24;15;10 - 00;24;16;10
Stacey
You lose your appetite.
00;24;16;10 - 00;24;21;04
Dr. John Mayer
Typically. Yeah. Typically you see heroin addicts if you just image it in your head.
00;24;21;04 - 00;24;31;06
Dori
Just did they. But they didn't they? I know you said it was a short mention. They didn't say that he was currently like when? Because this happened only a couple of years ago. Right?
00;24;31;06 - 00;25;08;12
Dr. John Mayer
Right. I'm yeah, I'm getting to that story. He then goes into rehab and his rehab was successful. And that stimulated in him this now obsession with crime, criminals, drugs. Something happened in rehab that turned a switch for him to be obsessed with crime. And, criminology, etc. and that's what he went to undergraduate school to study. DeSales University, which I've never heard of.
00;25;08;14 - 00;25;36;18
Dr. John Mayer
But he studied, criminology and then applied for the, PhD program at Idaho University. Which, by the way, I think I told you both when we were talking about, broadcasting about this, this murder, I had two patients that were going to the the university at the time of the killings. Wow. And so I have a little bit.
00;25;36;20 - 00;25;40;25
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah. Yeah. To two young ladies and matter of fact. And,
00;25;40;27 - 00;25;42;20
Stacey
Were they scared, like, out of their mind?
00;25;42;21 - 00;25;44;28
Dr. John Mayer
Oh, out of the mind. And they're.
00;25;45;03 - 00;25;47;05
Stacey
Angry. They,
00;25;47;08 - 00;26;08;04
Dr. John Mayer
They are angry at the university, too, because they were not getting any information about what was going on. I don't know if you both remember, but they quickly again had the dean of students on, from the university, and they just gave like a very cryptic three sentence text to all the students. Oh yeah.
00;26;08;04 - 00;26;16;08
Stacey
That was that was disgusting. Yeah. This is like I mean, what are they trying to this is what I'm talking about is like a cover up or they trying to make it not go out there.
00;26;16;11 - 00;26;39;00
Dr. John Mayer
I guess with, the feeling of the students where again, look, looking through the eyes of the two young ladies that I was hidden therapy at that time. They were very angry at that. They felt the university wasn't saying a and so they felt extremely unsafe. They didn't know if this was a serial killer on the loose.
00;26;39;00 - 00;27;00;07
Dr. John Mayer
Am going to attack again, etc.. They're getting no information from the university. So the university's response to this just seemed very poor. And I can again back that up with with real testimony from students who were there at the time. Yeah. So I'm not just taking this off today.
00;27;00;07 - 00;27;03;00
Dori
They know the victims.
00;27;03;03 - 00;27;34;29
Dr. John Mayer
No, neither one of them knew the victim, but, one was in coursework. Although his undergraduate coursework in criminology. So she felt she could have, you know, somehow, Brian, have been around Brian, etc.. And, she describes, you know, again, this is very sketchy because she was she was being very honest and saying, you know, I can't say that I really remember him, which is very important.
00;27;34;29 - 00;28;03;25
Dr. John Mayer
And when I talk about his, possible diagnosis, you know, he was nondescript. But, you know, the I think the compelling description of him was, and I think we all know people like this. The thing that stands out for me, first of all, is, you know, he's asking all the questions in class. Do you both remember students?
00;28;03;25 - 00;28;10;15
Dori
What I said? I said that he said that the that the others I can't stand. Like, that's the guy that was asking all the questions.
00;28;10;15 - 00;28;14;24
Stacey
I cannot stand. When people have questions, it drives me nuts. Question? I have a.
00;28;14;24 - 00;28;22;19
Dr. John Mayer
Question. Yeah. So so, you know, it's five minutes the class ending and they're, you know, you know, asking, goofy questions. Right.
00;28;22;22 - 00;28;33;26
Stacey
She's I think I sent Dori, I think I sent you a meme. It was like, you know, when our meeting is almost over. So if anybody has any questions, you know, like praying that the meeting's over and then somebody goes, I have a question.
00;28;33;28 - 00;28;35;21
Dr. John Mayer
I think that was him.
00;28;35;25 - 00;28;38;05
Stacey
That was I sent it to Tori. Okay, but.
00;28;38;05 - 00;28;49;11
Dr. John Mayer
What does that tell us about those people who do that have a have a real social disconnect. You know, they don't get the social milieu of the class. You know, it's like.
00;28;49;14 - 00;28;51;05
Stacey
No, they're not even.
00;28;51;08 - 00;28;51;27
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah.
00;28;51;29 - 00;28;55;02
Dori
It can't read the room. You're not reading the room.
00;28;55;03 - 00;28;56;05
Stacey
No, you're not right.
00;28;56;07 - 00;28;58;17
Dr. John Mayer
Thank you. That's the way to put it is, you.
00;28;58;17 - 00;29;02;25
Stacey
Know, I and it's so selfish and self-centered to do that.
00;29;02;28 - 00;29;03;07
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah.
00;29;03;07 - 00;29;41;19
Dori
Well, one other thing to John. They mentioned the fact that the killer and I don't want to say his first name, but the killer, had only, like 4 or 5 contacts in his phone. So this really was like an isolated person. I know, like he had been stopped before with this father. It seems like he was close with his dad, but other than that, and and I also because I watched that other documentary too, they made the same point that like, he seemed to be very isolated, that he didn't have quote unquote friends.
00;29;41;26 - 00;30;00;06
Dr. John Mayer
Which adds to the the psychological picture that I'm going to paint of him. But I also want to correct you, Dory, about the dead. The dad also had him arrested when he was a kid because he was stealing from his sister.
00;30;00;09 - 00;30;01;23
Dori
Oh that's right. Yeah.
00;30;01;23 - 00;30;06;04
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah, absolutely. To feed his drug drug addiction.
00;30;06;07 - 00;30;27;02
Dori
So I missed the whole drug. Yeah. What happened? It was something to watch these. I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes I watch them and I'm typing on my computer, and. And I get riveted and certain. And then sometimes I'd like to do so. That's the drug thing. I remember the sister that that he. But the whole drug thing. Yeah.
00;30;27;03 - 00;30;28;02
Dori
No, no record went.
00;30;28;02 - 00;30;29;08
Stacey
Past it totally would go.
00;30;29;09 - 00;30;29;29
Dori
In my mind.
00;30;29;29 - 00;30;48;25
Stacey
No, it didn't enter my mind. It feels like, you know, can I tell you one thing? I just I looked one thing up. I just. Can I tell you one thing about him? They said that, he was looking, not. He wasn't looking for an easy kill. He was looking for a performance which is almost unheard of for a first time murderer.
00;30;48;25 - 00;31;06;06
Stacey
It wasn't sloppy. You know, it wasn't a crime of passion. It wasn't a jilted love. It wasn't his breaking point. The. They were calculated, rehearsed, and executed with a level of planning that most first time killers never come close to historically. At any rate, I just wanted to say that.
00;31;06;06 - 00;31;07;25
Dr. John Mayer
So was that the way we were?
00;31;07;29 - 00;31;10;15
Dori
Who says Marie's first time? Murder. Let me.
00;31;10;15 - 00;31;11;13
Dr. John Mayer
Interrupt.
00;31;11;15 - 00;31;12;27
Stacey
You're right. No. You're right.
00;31;12;29 - 00;31;14;15
Dr. John Mayer
Who's that from? Who said that?
00;31;14;20 - 00;31;37;29
Stacey
This is an article, what everyone missed about Brian Cole. Burger by Jay. By Jay Pharoah. Deputy Sheriff. Retired deputy sheriff. He didn't snap. He stalked, you know, so I just was looking, it this college house wasn't random. It was a message. But anyway, I didn't want to get I didn't want to take away from the.
00;31;38;02 - 00;31;44;05
Stacey
I just was looking because I thought, is there something about him besides what I know? And the drug?
00;31;44;05 - 00;31;54;23
Dr. John Mayer
Well, what I want to say about that. Excuse me again. Excuse me, Dory, for interrupting, but I think this was very important because. Okay, that again is from a law,
00;31;54;25 - 00;31;55;11
Dori
Enforcement.
00;31;55;11 - 00;32;17;23
Dr. John Mayer
Enforcement? Yeah. Person what would it doesn't really talk about deeper analysis of why, who, etc. all of that. Okay. It's true, but there's some real explanation as to and you both brought it up. Why these why these four? Why these four people?
00;32;17;25 - 00;32;18;20
Stacey
Why?
00;32;18;23 - 00;32;36;03
Dr. John Mayer
My analysis is family. They are everything that he could feel or touch in life. They were good looking. They're very good looking kids. They were fun loving. They were. They were living large and college.
00;32;36;05 - 00;32;37;27
Stacey
Having fun, happy.
00;32;37;29 - 00;32;38;23
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah.
00;32;38;25 - 00;32;41;28
Dori
They had a lot of friends. They had a lot of friends.
00;32;41;28 - 00;32;47;12
Stacey
Very popular. Yep. So that was and he was not.
00;32;47;13 - 00;32;56;16
Dr. John Mayer
Directly he was stalking them. And he picked these four because it's everything that he doesn't have. What do you.
00;32;56;16 - 00;33;16;25
Dori
Think he picked I know like when we say four because only four. But there were others that lived in the home, right. I don't know if we'll ever know this. And I get it that like, what is it? Yes. Was it the house? Was it the kids in the house that he knew, like all of them? And didn't they?
00;33;17;01 - 00;33;41;22
Dori
Maybe in the other documentary I thought they mentioned something about like a party or that maybe he was at one or something like that. I don't think it was in this one. I think it was in the other one. But I'm curious if it really was all of them, or if there was one particular one that he was going after.
00;33;41;22 - 00;33;41;25
Dori
Yeah.
00;33;41;26 - 00;33;42;08
Dr. John Mayer
And I.
00;33;42;14 - 00;33;43;15
Dori
Will never know that.
00;33;43;16 - 00;33;45;20
Dr. John Mayer
I don't know, we'll never know that, but I.
00;33;45;20 - 00;33;47;04
Stacey
Will never know. I mean, why I.
00;33;47;04 - 00;33;49;21
Dr. John Mayer
Think he targeted that, that house.
00;33;49;26 - 00;33;53;23
Stacey
And you think he meant to kill the boy and you just did, because. No, I think.
00;33;53;23 - 00;33;57;04
Dr. John Mayer
The boy I think the boy was just happened to be there.
00;33;57;04 - 00;34;01;21
Stacey
And right in the way he feels like it was about the women. Yeah.
00;34;01;23 - 00;34;34;23
Dr. John Mayer
I also think one of the things that the documentary said they disagree with, and the law enforcement end of it, is that the police were talking about using the knife as a very personal way to kill. And that's true. That's true. But I think for Brian here, the knife was because it wouldn't make any noise. It because he went there in the middle of the night, you know, he didn't want to make a big, amount of, noise or attention to what he was doing.
00;34;34;25 - 00;34;38;15
Dr. John Mayer
And so you don't you don't shoot them, you know, because then, of course.
00;34;38;18 - 00;34;39;20
Stacey
It's loud.
00;34;39;23 - 00;34;59;22
Dr. John Mayer
You know, the one boy, friend of the group described that his house was ten feet away from this house. So. So it looks like that neighborhood, everything was, you know, very close together. I think Brian, in his planning, just, you know, knew that if he would use a gun that there was.
00;34;59;29 - 00;35;21;28
Dori
Going to find me. Did they? Because they had the footage on the morning when he did kill them. So they have the footage of the car, like from all different cameras around the area. They saw him circling around and that his phone would go up. So they linked. It wasn't just circumstantial. It was kind of like, this is what happened.
00;35;22;01 - 00;35;36;27
Dori
Did they show anything about him prior to the morning of the killings? No driving there. The really that is the piece of the puzzle that, like.
00;35;36;29 - 00;35;38;29
Stacey
He turned off his car, by the way.
00;35;39;02 - 00;35;42;21
Dori
Yeah. And turned on and went off. Right. The phone went off.
00;35;42;24 - 00;35;45;00
Stacey
To turn his phone off for location, you know.
00;35;45;00 - 00;35;56;15
Dori
Right. But is this is the mystery in my mind was. Yes, of course it was premeditated that he knew he was going to go kill that day, that morning.
00;35;56;17 - 00;35;57;06
Stacey
00;35;57;09 - 00;36;05;26
Dori
But was he planning this for or was he going there? Was he stalking one or all of them? Was he conscious?
00;36;05;29 - 00;36;35;08
Dr. John Mayer
Yes he was, because the the amazingly cool FBI analysis of the car, I mean, that was fascinating how they could trace the car, etc.. Yeah, they showed he was going into Moscow, Idaho, I don't want to say months, but quite a number of times before the killings and then after the killings never went back, never went back. Right.
00;36;35;08 - 00;37;02;16
Dr. John Mayer
And there was a key element of kind of pinpointing that, his car and who he was. It's etc.. So, so this was clearly very planned. And that's again, part of his is his, disturbance here. It was it was something that he planned. He got fascinated with murder and killing because of his studies, because of his disturbance, etc..
00;37;02;18 - 00;37;22;04
Dr. John Mayer
And again, I'll talk more about that, but, yeah, that he, he had visited his stock. That's why I'm saying he specifically picked that group of people. Now, whether he was after one in particular or the whole group, you know, we'll never know.
00;37;22;06 - 00;37;49;28
Dori
We'll never know. In the other documentary, they had mentioned the fact that that house was more of a party house. So, like, there were parties that would go on and that they often did not lock the door. So I am wondering, this is just me hypothesizing, but that like if he was there at one point or again for a party or whatnot, and he just knew that they don't.
00;37;49;28 - 00;38;04;08
Dori
I think the I think the morning of they did say that the door was locked and this one. But I think the other documentary alluded to the fact that the door was often not left locked.
00;38;04;10 - 00;38;12;29
Stacey
Right. Don't you think he had to have known the house a little bit on the interior? A door, not. I mean, is that something or.
00;38;13;01 - 00;38;26;04
Dr. John Mayer
I don't know, I don't I don't get that sense that that was so important, but the, the entry, I think with doors sitting out, it's important that he knew that he could get, you know, entry into the building.
00;38;26;06 - 00;38;48;27
Dori
Would you do you think that there I mean, because, you know, in the mind of a killer is so fascinating to me and the fact that, like, we didn't get a lot from this documentary of him at all, and I get why they were focusing more on the victims. And, but I'd be very curious to hear some about him from had would love to.
00;38;48;27 - 00;39;04;09
Dori
And I don't know, you don't want to give somebody that platform, right? You don't want to give a murderer that kind of platform. However, it is the fascination in me to hear from him. And what are you thinking and what? Yeah.
00;39;04;12 - 00;39;23;19
Stacey
You know, I have to say, like, I agree with you. I agree with you. I would love to know what's going on in his head. I would love to hear him speak. I would love to hear him. His voice. Moscow, Idaho is also the home of Doug Wilson, he headset's evangelical net. Christian nationalist pastor.
00;39;23;22 - 00;39;24;27
Dr. John Mayer
Oh, wow.
00;39;24;29 - 00;39;26;22
Dori
He did it, too. Let's just.
00;39;26;23 - 00;39;34;04
Stacey
Oh, I'm just thinking. Moscow, Idaho. To me, it just gives me the creeps in general. Really. And, I mean, I'm trying to.
00;39;34;04 - 00;39;37;25
Dori
Work with the universities everywhere. Like. That's good. Good.
00;39;37;26 - 00;39;41;03
Stacey
Everyone likes Idaho. Everyone looks like people talking.
00;39;41;03 - 00;39;56;01
Dr. John Mayer
This is a good school. I mean, the yeah, the students that I saw in therapy. Texans want one person you know top of her class in high school I mean it's a good it's a good school. Are they still there.
00;39;56;04 - 00;39;57;00
Stacey
The girls you knew.
00;39;57;01 - 00;39;58;17
Dori
Well I should we say I.
00;39;58;17 - 00;40;01;02
Dr. John Mayer
Can't see them. I can't see them. Oh I can't see.
00;40;01;02 - 00;40;01;15
Stacey
Oh okay.
00;40;01;15 - 00;40;09;16
Dr. John Mayer
This is a bit too much. It's too much identification. Okay, I'm saying this all in confidentiality and anonymously. Make.
00;40;09;16 - 00;40;15;09
Dori
No, it's not the. It's not the funds. Everybody. The funds is not saying no.
00;40;15;12 - 00;40;18;15
Stacey
The funds. I think that's our new nickname. The fund.
00;40;18;17 - 00;40;41;18
Dr. John Mayer
It's okay. I love this slick my hair back or something. But, Yeah, I, I didn't get any sense that he, you know, like, in a lot of murders with murderers, we see that they make diagrams of the, the, you know, stalking the place. And they know, you know, how many steps is in here, because, again.
00;40;41;18 - 00;40;47;19
Dori
That's quite to talk. Some really like to offer up information.
00;40;47;21 - 00;41;23;17
Dr. John Mayer
Because that's a part of, you know, clearly, Lynn, let me jump at the chase here. That Brian is, is a psychopath. But there's there's different types of psychopaths. And what you're describing with the ones that like to talk about it and brag about it, it's more of what we call the narcissistic psychopaths. You know, they, they, they want that notoriety and that, that, you know, attention that they get and they want, you know, I'm powerful and we've seen this in other episodes.
00;41;23;19 - 00;41;27;20
Stacey
Is that why he was asking so many questions in the class, or was that just to get attention or.
00;41;27;21 - 00;41;28;07
Dori
What was, you know.
00;41;28;07 - 00;41;29;19
Dr. John Mayer
That's part of his. That's just.
00;41;29;24 - 00;41;30;22
Stacey
Psychosis.
00;41;30;24 - 00;41;48;05
Dr. John Mayer
The psychosis. You know, he's he's a disturbed young man. And again, he doesn't doesn't read as Doris has read the room. That's part of that's also part of part of the, the, the characteristics of the psychopath. You know, they don't have those social skills.
00;41;48;07 - 00;41;50;05
Stacey
Right? Right, right.
00;41;50;08 - 00;42;16;11
Dr. John Mayer
So he he fits. There's typically we we talk about in my field, four types of psychopathic individuals, narcissistic psychopaths, like I said, borderline psychopath, which I think Brian is. And I'll describe then we have the sadistic psychopath that just, you know, just does this because he who loves to hurt people and.
00;42;16;11 - 00;42;18;11
Stacey
Punish Gacy or somebody.
00;42;18;14 - 00;42;50;28
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah, probably. If we ever do a Gacy episode, we'll get into that. And then there's the antisocial psychopath who just, loves to, you know, these are the people that, you know, the with the Unabomber, you know, who's who's got a cause against society. And, yeah, he's anti society, but Brian is Brian is a, again theorizing, not a diagnosis, but, is a borderline psychopath, which, I mean, and.
00;42;50;28 - 00;42;54;18
Stacey
What's the difference between borderline and narcissistic?
00;42;54;21 - 00;43;01;15
Dr. John Mayer
We don't get that. The, the braggadocio. Receive that. Right. Is that a word like.
00;43;01;15 - 00;43;04;24
Stacey
You know, like, you know, but I need to add the fact that I'm.
00;43;04;24 - 00;43;06;11
Dori
Into whatever that work. Right?
00;43;06;13 - 00;43;07;16
Stacey
I don't sure it is.
00;43;07;19 - 00;43;09;03
Dori
I'm so down. Yeah.
00;43;09;04 - 00;43;18;05
Dr. John Mayer
You don't we don't get that that think of the typical, public understanding of narcissism. We don't get that.
00;43;18;08 - 00;43;19;21
Stacey
Grandiose feeling of.
00;43;19;24 - 00;43;21;05
Dr. John Mayer
Grandiose good.
00;43;21;05 - 00;43;22;24
Stacey
Yeah. Feeling. Yeah. He.
00;43;22;26 - 00;43;23;27
Dr. John Mayer
You know, the.
00;43;23;29 - 00;43;29;28
Stacey
This is I did this, and I did that, and I did this, and I I'm and I'm naming this after all.
00;43;29;28 - 00;43;35;00
Dr. John Mayer
To himself, you know, interesting in internal.
00;43;35;02 - 00;43;40;27
Dori
Well and again like they said, they had never seen somebody who has so few contacts in their phone. Yeah.
00;43;40;28 - 00;43;42;25
Stacey
Five contacts or something.
00;43;42;28 - 00;44;11;12
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah. Yeah, something like that. But he also was very skilled at manipulating his, you know, computer and data and, and hiding things as well. But it was pretty clear he, he didn't really communicate with anybody, which was part of his pathology and part of the borderline psychopathic personality is, you know, you're much more isolated. You, really don't connect with people.
00;44;11;15 - 00;44;55;00
Dr. John Mayer
And again, we get this I talked about it in another episode, and this really comes to the to the forefront here with Brian. Just that emptiness inside. Again, going back to my comment earlier about why these people because everything that he doesn't have inside fun loving, full of life, attractive, attractive to other people and a lot of friends, etc. and I think the other reason that this is something I wanted to say earlier, when you talk about why this particular group, again, one of the other things you notice, and I got a feeling Dory's going to chirp in and say, yes, I noticed that.
00;44;55;02 - 00;44;58;11
Dr. John Mayer
I think all these girls looked very similar.
00;44;58;14 - 00;44;59;08
Stacey
They did.
00;44;59;11 - 00;45;03;08
Dr. John Mayer
It was almost like they could blend into one.
00;45;03;10 - 00;45;13;26
Dori
I don't I don't think, you know, I actually disagree with that. No, I think I, I don't agree with that. You do agree, Stacey, I don't agree. Yeah.
00;45;13;26 - 00;45;16;14
Stacey
I thought they were very similar vibe.
00;45;16;17 - 00;45;35;06
Dori
I thought they were similar vibe in that they were truly all friends and they all seem to really like hang out together and really like one another. But I didn't get a sense of like, looks wise, that they all were like the same look. But I think.
00;45;35;09 - 00;45;36;04
Dr. John Mayer
I kind of did.
00;45;36;04 - 00;45;54;24
Dori
I'm surprised I thought that the two. But I thought that the two best friends, that they even said that they could be like sisters, the two of them had that same maybe type of look, but I didn't think like Zanna and the other Zanna was.
00;45;54;26 - 00;46;09;08
Stacey
One of them had dark hair. But you know what's really sad to me? You know, it was sad to me. I'm sorry to like because it just hit me. Is, one of the, the dad of one of them was going to go and stay overnight there that night.
00;46;09;08 - 00;46;10;18
Dr. John Mayer
Oh, yeah.
00;46;10;21 - 00;46;29;24
Stacey
I forgot about that until you said something that reminded me of it. Trigger it? Yeah. It was. Yeah, that was that was really tragic. It was so tragic. But yeah, there is a look to these girls. I mean, you know, coming from a person who has a daughter, and I'm going to keep this totally anonymous, obviously, but like, all the girls sort of look similar.
00;46;29;24 - 00;46;36;11
Stacey
Maybe their faces and hair are different, so they all have this vibe. But, you know, I guess, I mean, I.
00;46;36;13 - 00;46;47;18
Dori
I do, I get it, I do wonder, but I look at that as like young college kids. I don't want to belabor the point, but I didn't get that they all looked alike. That was I that never.
00;46;47;18 - 00;46;49;25
Stacey
Okay, we don't have to agree on everything.
00;46;50;00 - 00;46;51;22
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah. No. Yeah. No we don't.
00;46;51;22 - 00;46;53;16
Stacey
And yes.
00;46;53;18 - 00;46;57;28
Dr. John Mayer
There was just adding to my analysis of why these young people.
00;46;57;28 - 00;46;59;23
Stacey
Because this type of girl, it's.
00;46;59;23 - 00;47;04;05
Dr. John Mayer
Almost like for Brian that they are absorbed into to one.
00;47;04;08 - 00;47;15;00
Stacey
Yeah. Yes. Because they're all pretty girls that are popular. But do you think he was born this way, or do you think he had some trauma, or do you think it was the drugs like what happened?
00;47;15;00 - 00;47;26;16
Dori
Okay, so first rehab, right, right. He said but maybe through getting. But why would it be getting sober and then suddenly, because there's a chemical imbalance in your head, like what happens?
00;47;26;16 - 00;47;48;06
Dr. John Mayer
Well, we see that in a lot of people that the oh, this is a super important. I'm glad you brought this up because this is a very important point about rehab and getting sober, etc.. Okay. You know, one of the myths that we have people that get into rehab is that they're going to get into rehab and everything's going to be all right.
00;47;48;06 - 00;48;12;18
Dr. John Mayer
They're going to be a totally different person. We call that the dry drunk. In other words, you go into rehab, but that person that you were beneath that, if you were an asshole, you're going to come out of rehab still an asshole. If you were, you know, going to rehab and you were anti-social, you're going to be anti-social.
00;48;12;21 - 00;48;41;07
Dr. John Mayer
But the other thing that rehab does, particularly with some rehabs and I could wax and give you some examples about this where this doesn't happen. But in a lot of the ways in which most rehabs, treat people, you are indoctrinated, you drink the Kool-Aid of what they were, you know, saying, this is this is the way you're going to get off drugs and be sober.
00;48;41;09 - 00;49;16;10
Dr. John Mayer
And I think, Brian drank that Kool-Aid of, you know, this is criminal. This is, you know, he got into all this. I'm going to be against bad behavior, you know, and I'm going to change my behavior and be here, you know, and this is one of the problems with with many rehab, situations is that it's it's a singular philosophy that you have to believe in and almost be brainwashed in that if you don't follow what we're saying, you're going to go back to that drug.
00;49;16;16 - 00;49;40;14
Dori
So I am curious about that because you you bring that up. So what? Because, you know, I'm sure we all have friends or people that we know who've gone to rehab. This is actually very interesting to me. Do you have thoughts on is it rehabs in general? Do you not agree? Is it just some that you don't like and is there a better solution?
00;49;40;14 - 00;49;42;16
Dori
But I know we're going off. I know I'm going off on it.
00;49;42;18 - 00;49;43;29
Stacey
No, this is interesting.
00;49;43;29 - 00;49;55;11
Dori
But is there a better still. Yeah, yeah. For people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol to not go through a rehab, is there a better idea in your mind, John.
00;49;55;13 - 00;50;21;17
Dr. John Mayer
Well, I don't think we have the, the, the magic wand yet of how to really treat people with addictions. I think the closest thing, and I don't know if we should make this a, advertisement, but there's a center in Chicago called Above and Beyond Recovery Center. That probably the best thing that I've seen because it it doesn't center on one approach.
00;50;21;17 - 00;50;43;04
Dr. John Mayer
It's not a one size fits all approach to, substance abuse treatment, you know, and that's I think, the key so many of these programs are the the pigeon hole. You went to this approach. That's why, by the way, some people just don't do well in, in rehabs because I can't buy into this philosophy.
00;50;43;06 - 00;50;54;09
Dori
So what are the different approaches that they that they have. And do you think that 30 days is too short for an addiction program?
00;50;54;11 - 00;50;56;13
Dr. John Mayer
Wow. This is, a hold.
00;50;56;21 - 00;51;02;14
Dori
I'm very disappointed that I didn't like. I tried a clean teen. I'm so into this.
00;51;02;14 - 00;51;07;02
Dr. John Mayer
I would love to pontificate about this, but we're already at 51 minutes.
00;51;07;02 - 00;51;09;01
Stacey
Well, you know, just give us just a.
00;51;09;01 - 00;51;15;00
Dori
Little just to answer a little bit. Maybe don't answer the 30 day population, but maybe, you know, I.
00;51;15;00 - 00;51;16;12
Dr. John Mayer
Want this I 30 day and.
00;51;16;12 - 00;51;36;04
Stacey
Can I just add something before you answer it. Yeah. So when people go into rehab usually sometimes, but usually it's not their choice may maybe an intervention. So when they're in there they're in a fantasy world with this bubble around them and it's not the real world. So then you get out of there and you're back to what you were doing because the environment is different.
00;51;36;07 - 00;51;38;22
Stacey
So that's I just wanted to add that before you continue.
00;51;38;28 - 00;52;03;08
Dr. John Mayer
That was very insightful. And that's exactly where I was going with the 30 day question is that we have to understand that. And and I get this also, as you know, I treat a lot of families and teenagers and kids and parents go, I'm going to I'm going to go take them into this program. That'll cure them, and they'll go there or this wilderness program or something like that.
00;52;03;11 - 00;52;38;29
Dr. John Mayer
And to stay on the people come back to the same stresses and the same environments and the same pressures and triggers and, right, you know, seductions that brought them into drugs in the first place. So taking a person for 30 days and putting away it, it's it's a shot in the dark for some people it works. But the statistics are overwhelming in our world that most treatment the, our, our cure rate is very, very low.
00;52;39;02 - 00;52;42;02
Dr. John Mayer
It's less than 20%.
00;52;42;04 - 00;52;49;25
Dori
So why you know, the facility why is the beyond city facility above and beyond? Above and beyond? Why do you like that one?
00;52;49;27 - 00;52;51;25
Dr. John Mayer
Because again, it's not one size.
00;52;51;25 - 00;52;54;21
Dori
What are the approaches? What are the different.
00;52;54;24 - 00;53;22;10
Dr. John Mayer
What we have the traditional one that people think is the most successful. And I have some question about that. Is the Alcoholics Anonymous model, whether it's alcohol, drugs, etc., but it's Jesus Christ. God centered, you know, the, the, one of the basic tendencies, you know, give yourself to God.
00;53;22;13 - 00;53;23;18
Stacey
Let go, let God.
00;53;23;20 - 00;53;26;11
Dr. John Mayer
I'm trying to be in a hurry. So I'm not being to articulate here.
00;53;26;18 - 00;53;33;22
Stacey
No, but that was, you know, people that I know in my past, in my life have said that they couldn't get around that part of it. So.
00;53;33;26 - 00;53;42;17
Dr. John Mayer
Right, second thing, it's a little bit of, buoyant. We're going to get the letters on this. It's a little bit of a rah rah approach.
00;53;42;18 - 00;53;46;13
Dori
Again, nobody has our address, nobody ever any less.
00;53;46;16 - 00;53;48;11
Stacey
Pretend that this is a set here.
00;53;48;15 - 00;53;49;05
Dr. John Mayer
Except on.
00;53;49;05 - 00;53;50;06
Stacey
Our real.
00;53;50;09 - 00;54;00;27
Dr. John Mayer
Our website. You can you can email us. And we've we've got mail, which I should tell you a book about off off camera.
00;54;00;29 - 00;54;02;10
Stacey
It's a you're my dog.
00;54;02;16 - 00;54;06;15
Dr. John Mayer
It's it's like it's like Weight watchers or and weight to.
00;54;06;17 - 00;54;08;23
Stacey
With Jenny Craig or whatever. Yeah.
00;54;08;26 - 00;54;41;12
Dr. John Mayer
That that was developed, off as an offshoot from Alcoholics Anonymous. And if you don't buy into or need a group of people to be great. So a lot of times the AA approach doesn't work to educated, high IQ, professional or accomplished people because they kind of see through the the kind of primitive techniques that are that I use.
00;54;41;12 - 00;55;07;16
Dr. John Mayer
And again, if you don't buy into the philosophy and the the other thing is that we have these 12 steps in the approach, it's a 12 step program. Some people don't buy into all the 12 steps. You know, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. One of the the ones that people get many times stuck at is an I don't know what number it is.
00;55;07;16 - 00;55;14;26
Dr. John Mayer
I could probably switch my memory and bring it up, but again, I'm trying to go fast here is that, you know, I have to,
00;55;14;28 - 00;55;22;06
Stacey
Ask for your tone, everybody. Yeah, yeah, I hear you say that. People are to say that. Oh, you guys do?
00;55;22;09 - 00;55;24;03
Dr. John Mayer
Yep. And then we stop.
00;55;24;03 - 00;55;41;03
Stacey
Question. Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Talking. And I know we our time is limited. So I'm just going to say this because Dory's question about the different things. What do you think about this EDM stuff or like the ketamine or like going or the like microdosing type of a thing? Do you think those things can I think that.
00;55;41;03 - 00;55;54;13
Dr. John Mayer
You bring that up? Yes. I think, you know, let me clarify so that we don't get attacked by the age group. It's that. Many approaches can work for many people.
00;55;54;15 - 00;55;55;06
Stacey
Yes. You know.
00;55;55;06 - 00;56;07;00
Dr. John Mayer
Again, you have to buy into it. But what I said in the beginning of the questions here is we don't have the magic wand yet. We don't know what the approaches that's going to to help. That's why I'm like.
00;56;07;02 - 00;56;08;23
Dori
This doesn't fit, all right.
00;56;08;26 - 00;56;26;03
Dr. John Mayer
That's why I like this. Yeah. This approach from that and and this center, by the way, is in the West side of Chicago into the most, at risk area. It's free. Oh, how people come in there. It's it's an amazing place.
00;56;26;08 - 00;56;27;27
Dori
They should get a shout out.
00;56;27;27 - 00;56;29;00
Dr. John Mayer
I'm glad you.
00;56;29;00 - 00;56;30;19
Stacey
Mentioned this club.
00;56;30;19 - 00;56;36;17
Dori
Really? I really believe this could help people. I hope people listen till the end. Yeah.
00;56;36;20 - 00;56;42;28
Stacey
I mean, Lucas, John, you know, Doctor John really is a specialist in alcohol in their context, wouldn't you say that?
00;56;43;00 - 00;56;45;03
Dr. John Mayer
Yeah. Yeah, that's one of my my.
00;56;45;03 - 00;56;48;23
Stacey
For one of your, one of your specialties that my teens know.
00;56;48;23 - 00;56;49;15
Dr. John Mayer
That hats.
00;56;49;15 - 00;56;56;20
Dori
So I do want to find out about our fan mail. So can we wrap up because I got to go back. Yeah. So we'll talk about my job.
00;56;56;22 - 00;57;02;24
Stacey
Yeah. We'll talk about this, for later, because this is so interesting and you have so much knowledge and so much. Yeah.
00;57;02;24 - 00;57;04;14
Dori
I want to bring this up again.
00;57;04;16 - 00;57;05;12
Dr. John Mayer
Bring it up again.
00;57;05;16 - 00;57;09;25
Dori
And I want to hear about the ketamine treatment to like your thoughts on that too. Yeah.
00;57;09;25 - 00;57;11;24
Stacey
We'll talk about that MDR.
00;57;11;26 - 00;57;13;26
Dr. John Mayer
So let me end on Courtney.
00;57;13;28 - 00;57;18;24
Stacey
And okay wait wait wait don't end it yet. Oh did you end it?
00;57;18;27 - 00;57;25;29
Dr. John Mayer
I did.
00;57;26;01 - 00;57;29;19
Candy?
00;57;29;21 - 00;57;37;18
I.
00;57;37;20 - 00;57;48;22
Should. Be.
00;57;48;25 - 00;57;49;19
Nice.