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Tom Charlton chats to Andrew Le Jeune on his journey from UK to Australian racing and becoming co-trainer to John O'Shea.
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Speaker 2 (00:01.262)
Tom Charlton has held some famous racing family in the UK but has decided to call Australia home, now in a successful training partnership with John O'Shea. Having secured his maiden Group 1 win with Leimbacher in the Randwick Guineas, he's now looking for further top flight success during Sydney's autumn and beyond. During the chat we touch on the early days at Beckhampton with his father and a couple of horses that helped shape a generation. His journey to Australia and the current stable stars. Enjoy.
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Speaker 2 (00:35.822)
Well, Tom, welcome to the Idlehorse podcast and really appreciate your time as well. Very busy week. We've had day one of the championships, day two coming up, the sales as well. So really appreciate you finding the time for us today.
No, problem, I'll just play it.
How did you go at the sales? From what I saw, looked pretty strong.
Yeah, it was really tough work from a trainer's point of view. There were some really nice animals and it was difficult shopping. think from our point of view, we were probably in a fortunate position to have actually bought a lot of stock through the earlier sales this year, which should have left us not in a stressful situation of having to buy a lot at this sale. So we picked up a couple ourselves and then...
a few sort of clients have sent us some lovely horses as well so pleasing enough we.
Speaker 2 (01:25.1)
Opportunity for free plug shares still available or you're all done.
We've got a little bit left of an Extreme Choice filly and it's usually the only one from Easter. And then we've got a couple, a lovely Perincanto for only hundred grand. He's a really nice horse. Just take a little bit of time with him. And then a Toronado who we bought at Magic, so I'm sure we'll have had more money this week looking at what they were all making.
There you go. Steep learning curve, suppose, buying yearlings and those sort of things. Is that something that, in the build up to being a trainer, have you done work with blood stock agents and things like that? Are you someone that judges your eye or do you look at the page? What's your approach?
Yeah, I work for a few different people and all sort of have different approaches and I think it's probably one of those things there's no right or wrong which is so often with the whole industry, the whole game, there's no real right or wrong at times which I guess is what makes the sport. So I've worked, I've done numerous sort of sales seasons, particularly in England when it was the quarter, sort of winter period with Amanda Skiffington.
I've done sort of a couple weeks with Dumb at Farringdon who's a really smart guy as well. yeah, obviously sort of had relationships. mean, you know, recently been around the sales with Suman Hedge who did a bit of work for us who again is a good judge and James Bester who is a very smart guy and very articulate with his description of why or what or when.
Speaker 1 (03:05.006)
So yeah, it's been, you know, you're always learning in this game. think everyone is, even the smartest people.
You're obviously looking for the Group 1 stars of the future. We had day one of the championships and character building day. Was it linebacker? I don't want say he was unlucky, but he didn't have any luck at all at same time. He was a huge run in the Doncaster.
Yeah, I think was one of those days where we went into day and it often happens and you're full of confidence, you think you've got a very good team, but in the back of your mind you just need so much to go your way. Particularly on a day like that when I'm sure a number of stables are probably feeling the same sort of levels of feeling like you've got the right horses. Colin Neer was excellent running second in the Adrian Knox, couldn't have done any more, just probably bumped into one a bit better on the day.
was afforded no luck and then the sort of main event linebacker yeah I think you know as to why he was a bit slow at the gates not quite sure he was I think he one of the first horses to enter the gates which in 20 run of fields sort of mean you can be in the standing there for quite a while and then as soon as the the barriers opened we were you know I thought it was all over pretty quickly when they were running pretty slow sectionals down the back and
It was always going be very, very unlikely and he was going to figure and I couldn't believe how close he got. So I have to think if he jumped cleaner then there's no guarantee in life but I'd be pretty confident he would have been right there anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:40.014)
He was your first group one winner, a recent one as well, so he's always going to be a special horse for you. But what are you thinking long term or medium term with him now for the rest of the season?
Yeah, look, he's still in the stable at the moment where, you know, there are options of a Frank Packer plate next weekend or an all-age, but whether that's the right thing at the moment for him to, if there was a mile or another 2000-meter race in the coming weeks, you know, get think about it. But, you know, in his next season, there's only going to be four once, and that brings the opportunity of running in a Golden Eagle, which is...
Obviously a very large amount of money and he profiles up really well for that type of race. Whether 2000 metres might be his trip in time I think will remain to be seen but it's obviously very effective at a mile and that race is probably a likely target in the spring.
If we back up a little bit then, how have you ended up where you are? come from, say, obviously, your father's a very well respected and famous trader in the UK. Did Australia, did that come back by chance? From what I know, it certainly wasn't planned. Anyway, it wasn't a sort of a 10 year plan for you.
Yeah, look, I think, but maybe naively, I always thought I'd be in England and didn't have much respect for the outer world, if I'm being honest with you, which I admit I was wrong about. And I sort of spent a few months in America, probably back in 2017 or 2018. I liked my time there, but didn't love the racing. I don't really enjoy the dirt racing myself.
Speaker 1 (06:24.982)
I didn't love some of the protocols of, you know, at the time they were racing onto Lasix and various other things, which again, I just didn't really think was great, in my opinion. And then sort of came back home, was working for that at the time, and then opportunity came to travel with a horse called Withhold for the Melbourne Cup, who was at the time sort of one of the joint favourites and looked sort of good chance and been set for the race.
So I came down to Australia then, probably spent three months here. The horse around the Geelong Cuff unfortunately bled, which kind of ruled him out of the whole preparation here. But in that time, you know, I saw all the amazing things Australia had to offer and it opened my eyes to different style of training, different style of animal and an industry that was clearly thriving. So I went home for a month and sort of quickly hopped on a plane.
went to the Magic Millions, UNHL, I think it was 2019, sort of asked John at Farron to spend a couple of weeks with him because I was keen to pay his brain on how he does things. And then in that time, had the idea that I was going to, you know, potentially speak to a trainer and try and fit in with the role for I don't know how long I was really thinking, thought I'd do well to stay six months at first. And I sort of, sort of, you know, tried to
stiff half a lip and said, I can't, I can't. If I go home earlier than six months I'm going to look a bit wet. Anyway, I met with John O'Shea, who I'd been told by a number of colleagues back in England that he was great to work for. At the time he'd probably just come back from Godolphin and setting up a stable which attracted me because I thought rather than going to a big stable and being nowhere I thought it'd be quite...
a good idea to try and grow with someone. So I started off with John. And like I said, the first few months I was picking up who, for a better word, doing all those daily tasks, which I absolutely loved because I enjoyed the idea of I was going to prove to him and myself, I guess, that I was going to grow after and get to where I wanted to be through effort and application rather than
Speaker 1 (08:50.188)
you know, Tom from England who could quickly get thrown into a job that I wasn't entitled to. that sums up John well, you work very hard for him and he'll reward that with loyalty and opportunity. then into six months and into 12 months, things gradually kept progressing and soon enough, I fell in love with the industry in Australia.
back to your dad for a second. I've met your dad a couple of times. I don't know him at all, but it does strike me, and I say this as a complete compliment, he seems very old school. What were your early memories of growing up in a yard with him? I assume you worked in the stable at some point in time, if it was just weekends and after school and things like that.
Yeah, used to, where we lived is sort of in the middle of nowhere to be honest with you. Growing up, I played a lot of sport at school, but went at home, was obviously, often it was horses and pony club. And I always had that very competitive edge even from a young age and followed his progress closely.
any hint of a good horse in the stable and I was, you know, obsessed. So yeah, I had some incredible, you know, memories and had some amazing horses through the stable. I remember I was pretty young, I would have probably been eight. It's probably my earliest memory that I can remember was getting picked up from school in 2003, because it was Royal Ascot Week, I think.
Maybe this, was five minutes down there, the secretary picked me up from school, mum and dad were at Ascot. And I could just sense something pretty special had happened. And I remember getting home and watching Three Valleys from the Coventry States by Nine Legs. And I don't know why, it's always stuck in my, that's my first memory. So yeah, I was just always, you know, riding out, did pony racing for a bit. And yeah, just incredible memories, good memories.
Speaker 2 (11:07.394)
James Doyle was a guest earlier on the podcast going back the world now. he, I mean, his talents take him a long way as well, but he did sort of credit your dad with getting him back on that path as well to the success that he's enjoying now. And we talked quite a bit about Cityscape. That was a very important winner for him. And well, you'd have easily remembered him because you'd have been into teens by then, I'm sure. he did do bike, you could be free. Of course, the race I'm talking about.
Yeah, I tell you, another thing I can never forget is exactly around that cityscape time, James had, James had started riding a couple of horses for us at the back end of the year before, but mainly because he had been doing work for Gary Witherford, who was a barrier specialist. And there was a couple of horses that went there and James did all the work. And I think dad said, well, look, he's been doing the work.
we'll let him ride them in these races, which were Maidens. I they both happened to win. So naturally sort of, you know, James is coming on the radar as a potential jockey who could pick up a few more rides. But think he'd only ever won a listed race before and he sort of did stints in Dubai in the winter. And I'll never forget, he came back probably in March or April and he
He knew he was riding Cityscape, I think, in a couple of weeks, but at the time we had, I think he was second favourite for the guineas, a horse called Tophoffer. And he'd only ever won a maiden, and he turned out to be useless, not useless, but he was a very talented horse. Unfortunately, it's this thing that didn't go his way. He was second favourite for the guineas. And he came back in to say one morning, and he walked through the gate, and he said, oh, what am I riding this morning? I said, oh, you're actually riding up from the stable. It was a horse you need to get to know.
And he goes, what's that? I said, it's horse called Top Offer. You're going to ride it with the guineas. And as it turned out, it made nothing. But at that time, James suddenly went, gee, I've just been throwing the leg up on the second favourite in the guineas. And he was like speechless, actually a little bit emotional. He may say differently, but my interpretation was that it was a moment that he realised that he had sort of broken through, I guess, of what he wanted to.
Speaker 1 (13:27.886)
in a weird sense and it was a really special moment and then obviously two weeks later he went on to win the duty free and suddenly now James and James Doyle and he's know written for Judd Monk, Cudolph and numerous group ones and really special, a fantastic bloke James, he was like part of the furniture at home and you know I'll be happy to call my friend.
Talking about how the UK, the stable system, so I haven't worked in the UK for a long time, so it all might have changed by now, the stables that I work for might have been different to others. But how do you think, or have you used any of those methods training here in Australia? Because I don't think first lot, then everyone stopped for breakfast would really work here.
Yeah, that's spot on. I think that's quite an old fashioned tradition. in England, it's probably changed a little bit in recent times because staff shortages has dictated. for a number of years, in all the years I was in England, you ride three lots and the staff come in, they muck up the boxes out, they have a cigarette out the back, they saddle up the horse very slowly.
They brush the horse very carefully and make sure it's all immaculate, which is great. And then, you know, go ride out, they come in, they then have breakfast for 45 minutes and sort of stumble to their next horse. And just from experience, I can't, from working here in an incredibly fast paced, morning and efficient, I'm not saying it's not efficient, but it's sort of time oriented, like going home and I'm sat there pulling my hair out, sort of trying to say.
Dad, you realize how much time-based it is. You could easily get five or six lots out here much more efficiently. And I think that is changing, probably changing all around England. But yeah, certainly, I guess a luxury if you can afford to do it.
Speaker 2 (15:29.134)
Just before we leave that, she's one horse I was going to ask if you remember or not and that was kind that your dad trained. you have any memories of her in the
A little bit before my time, can't remember what year she was. I remember her stable was about five or 10 meters away from my bedroom window. And I remember, like I said, don't remember her personally, but I remember that, you know, but when she, at the time she was very talented, fairly quite very highly strong. I think she put five or six in a row one time. She was probably bred to get a
further than she achieved on the race course. She ended up being sort of six foot long filly, I think. And dad always said to me, he said to me recently as well, he wished that he knew about ear muffs a bit more back then, because you see them so often now in straightening race courses, you've shot in like most courses have pre-race muffs to the gates. He said that they just weren't a thing back then. And he always said, it feels like there was probably one
bit of equipment that would have originally settled her down. She was very highly strung, but absolutely brilliant and built like a cult. And I guess, you know, probably makes sense that she's ended up being able to create, you know, the best racehorse we'll ever see.
Yeah, for anyone who's just still putting two and two together, she was of course the mother of Frankel and quite extraordinary how those stories sort of developed. I've always wanted to ask you, your dad, about that, but I figured in lieu of that I can...
Speaker 1 (17:12.718)
He often talks about, in 89, Dane Hill was obviously at Beckhampton, and that was the year before he took over from Jeremy Tree. And he always talks about Dane Hill as giving him the impression that he could have potentially been a fantastic stallion. The way that he was built and just various factors in a great speed.
And obviously, you know, that's turned out to be probably the most poignant horse in Australia breeding, which I guess now given the position I'm in, and in Australia and seeing how those bloodlines and the whole industry has worked around Dane Hill is amazing really. I guess it's a small industry at times.
I hadn't really thought about that, but he's essentially been in touch with two of the most important horses in modern times really in some respects.
Yeah, I think so. think, you know, naturally that's actually come down to, obviously, their biggest and best supporter ever, Job on Farms and kind of the Abdallah family. And, you know, you see it time and time again, the influence that that breeding operation has had on the game. So, yeah, I guess, you know, he would just say how incredibly fortunate he's had, you know, the support of
of that operation and you know even in his first season his training in 1990 when you know I think he only had probably 15 three-year-olds in his care and managed to win the French Derby, English Derby and second in the Irish Derby with three different horses like this just all owned by Jumup Farms so there's a common denominator there.
Speaker 2 (18:59.402)
Absolutely. Well, getting back to present day, looking ahead to this weekend, you mentioned Athabaskin before, he presses on though to the Sydney Cup this weekend, runner-up last year, but doesn't look necessarily an easier race this time round.
No, it doesn't. He's a dead set two miler and all his runs of preparation have been excellent and sort of been building towards this run. On Saturday it was messy. They didn't go much tempo and there was a bit of interference towards the back of the field which probably sort of dictated to his chances. But he was still good through the line. His exploding six-man was...
For a starting horse, couldn't have done too much more. So think this weekend it's important that we see true tests of stamina. I suspect given the prominence of Alicante in the market, I don't think people will be just giving her the free rein in front, which might add a bit of tactical to the race. He's drawn well at our horse in four. People use the gate.
and sort of have him as close as he can whilst being comfortable and you know repeat performances last year you'll see him in the finish so look I think he's a sort of 25 to 1 chance now and he was sort of $11 or $10 last week and he didn't I don't think he should have lost too many admirers on Saturday I think it'd be harsh to be too critical of him.
he's not running this weekend but a very exciting horse from the outside looking in is Yorkshire. What are the plans with him?
Speaker 1 (20:40.046)
Yeah, he's back on the stable now. Just had a very minor setback last week. We were going to trial him towards the start of this week, but he should be back on track. we sort of earmarked him potentially for a Skone Cup, which carries a big dance eligibility ticket with it, which is a race that we are keen to try and gear him towards in the spring.
looks a good miler, he's got a nice building profile, looks progressive. He's definitely a stage source and there's no reason why he won't keep improving. So we'll just have a think about the preparation, but we'd love to try and have him Melbourne Cup day in Sydney for that big dance and then perhaps next autumn, see what else we can target.
Just because of my default mode is always to think about international races. You mentioned before about linebacker, saying if there was a mile race, you know, coming up in the next couple of weeks, there's actually a couple of horses going over to Hong Kong in a few weeks time. It's too late for linebacker now. De Brightside's going over and Royal Patronage, who's actually only just in front of you in the Doncaster, I understand he's going to go as well. Do you have, I don't know, you need the right horse to go on these sort of trips, but do you have those sort of aspirations as well to...
to go to Dubai, to go to Hong Kong, or even go back to Royal Ascot as a trainer with a live chance in a race like that.
Absolutely. mean, from a personal point of view, idea of having having a winner or runner at Asker is is pretty special. Particularly if my brother could have won in the same race, that would be quite that would be really, really quite something. But and of course, we you know, the right horse would would definitely come under consideration, particularly a sprinter. I sort of been a bit of talk about Swartz maybe going for the
Speaker 1 (22:35.054)
the Royal Asking. I'm not saying he is, but if you had that sort of horse that profiled up as a colt or even a filly or something, then it's pretty enticing. I think the trouble with Australia at the moment, and it's a good problem to have, you've got an Everest in the spring worth $10 million or whatever it's worth, and other races that carry a lot of prize money.
sort of slightly dictates to try and stay at home and win those races a bit. I think on the contrary, if you're in England with a good horse, it probably means you travel and chase those prize money races a bit more internationally. But I guess from Australia, there's just so much happening in this industry. You have to have the right horse to probably warrant traveling for the owners, unless that owner wasn't geared around the money, which is obviously very possible.
Yeah, William Haggis has certainly taken up that challenge of traveling and I saw some stats the other day that is the money he's won on the road in Australia is equivalent to what he's won nearly in 10 years or something training in the UK.
And then see, that's the thing. I mean, we've got it so good here. It's, you know, there's not a lot of point to travel really at times. Especially with those sort of, you know, mile beyond horses. You start going to Dubai, I mean, so you meet the Japanese and those are, you know, those are serious horses.
Nothing would beat that feeling or nothing could match that feeling of walking into Royal Ascot and saddling a horse for, know, bought Lee Friedman undone with Miss Andretti. There's something special about those sort of meetings as well.
Speaker 1 (24:23.662)
Absolutely. you like, you you can't put a price on that, you know, so when I talk about, you know, the money side of things, it's more, more, guess, for the sort of ownership group. But you just couldn't personally, I don't think you could put a price on that sort of achievement.
Alright, we'll really appreciate it again, Tom, your time, because I know you're busy all week this week. Continued success for the autumn and beyond again. We'll catch up soon.
Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Tom Childen really enjoyed that chat and should probably think about trying to get his dad Roger on as well at some point. He some fantastic stories to tell, but we'll save that for another time. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. Follow us on all the socials and head to the trilingual website, www.idlehorse.com to keep up to date with all the latest international racing news. Thanks for tuning in. That's it for now. We'll catch you next time.